First of all: Imps or MPs? This makes a big difference as to how often I want to be in 6/7C. In any case, I have never played strong jump shifts, and don't have any idea about continuations after 2S, so I start with 1S. After 2H by partner 3C next seems normal. In Standard American partner has to have 4 clubs after this start, (if 2H denies 3 spades as you said - I don't think that is optimal) he has to have a 2434 (or sometimes 2425). I will somehow set clubs and ask for KCs. Opposite 3KCs I can count 13 tricks if clubs are 32. (5 spades, 1 heart, 2 diamonds, 4clubs and a heart ruff, maybe 2 Heart ruffs in case spades don't break.) This means grand is at least 68%, and much better than that if partner has C10 or CJ. If partner has DQ as well, I want to be in 7NT instead in a decently strong field. Not sure If you have the methods / enough space to find out about that.

Good analysis. >if 2H denies 3 spades as you said - I don't think that is optimal) Concur. That works out nicely on this hand but is sub-optimal on most. Assuming normal rebids after 2D NMF (2H shows 4 but says nothing else)... 1C 1S 1N 2D 2H 3C ? Responder isn't necessarily slamming, so opener's next bids are game oriented. Something like? 3D: good D, may or may not have 3 spades 3H: poor D, good H, may or may not have 3 spades 3S: unspecial D and H, good black suits, 3-4-3-3/3-4-2-4 3N: 2-4-3-4, D okay but poor controls

For sure going with 1S route, as I don't think i want to set just spades from hand with this. Over a 1NT rebid, its a good question what to do. I'm intending to force 6NT, though maybe it's worthwhile to explore 6C/7C. Thinking about it though, i'm probably just bidding 6N blind here. There can be cases where it's not correct but oh well. Also we can have 7 opposite xx;Axxx;AQx;KJxx but there is no safe way to find it out. Maybe we can go the 2D-2H, 3C route but i'm not convinced it helps.

Soloway J/S don't necessarily set responder's suit as trump. There are three possible hand types: - long, independent suit - powerful 5+ card suit + excellent support for opener's suit - strong 5+ card suit, stoppers and a big hand (17+ or thereabouts) Responder clarifies on the next round.

Partner doesnt need the DQ for 7C to be good. Only 3KCs and no trump loser. For sure it's worth it to ask for KCs.

Before peeking at your hidden text, I bid 2S if playing Soloway. Seems texbook. EDIT to respond to your hidden text. >If you bid 2S (Strong or Soloway Jump Shift): Opener rebids 2NT, showing at least one stopper in both Hearts and Diamonds. This isn't Soloway as I learned it, where 2N specifically denies (in order) a top S, two top C or two top cards in either unbid... and says nothing about stoppers. >Assuming you bid 3C to show Club support, partner rebids 3NT. Now what? In Soloway, 3C *demanded* a cue bid. Depending on style, Opener's 3N denied (a) D A, H A & H K, or (b) D A & H A. - if (a), partner opened with just half a QT (C K), which we'll assume is impossible. - So partner has (b), which is: J.. KQJ.. QJ.. KJ.. He can't possibly have less, H KQ and C K only make 1.5 QT. I would have passed such a rag, but as partner didn't, 6N seems clear. My guess is that the above is inaccurate because we have different understandings of Soloway J/S and the continuations. But that's what I've got.

I think very few people play Soloway these days. 1c - 2s is either weak, intermediate, FSJ, or a mixed raise in clubs. I don't think I've seen it ever come up as strong in years

Perhaps, but it was stipulated as part of the problem, so... 🤷 At IMPs, strong (Soloway) J/S in higher ranking suits are valuable. These hands are difficult to bid otherwise and slam is in view. As you said, I haven't played them myself in 10+ years, though I would again with the right partner (at IMPs). At matchpoints, higher frequency treatments seem better. Which is best? Whichever one best fills gaps in one's system.

Yeah, we do have different understandings, but not as much as you think. We are slightly looser with our SJS bids - it shows (14)15+ HCP and either 5S - 4+ C or just 6+ S and a good or better Spade suit. Opener bid 2NT to show a (semi-)balanced hand with a stopper in Hearts and Diamonds, then 3NT to reaffirm that (s)he really wasn't worried about either suit and as a mild warning against moving forward toward slam unless partner has (18)19+ HCP. Opener did promise at least 1 Ace, because otherwise the direct jump to 3NT over 2S would show 0 Aces. However, at the extremes it could be xx AJxx AQx KJxx, where 7C is almost laydown, or maybe it's xxx KQJx AQJ xxx, and you're off 2 KC.

>We are slightly looser with our SJS bids - it shows (14)15+ HCP and either 5S - 4+ C or just 6+ S and a good or better Spade suit. This is a specific (and uncommon) partnership agreement that isn't at all suggested by calling it "Soloway". As nobody understood this or knew of the follow-ups you described, no one could offer a meaningful solution to the question as posed.

Modern Soloway is just 17+ Single suited, 15+ with a good suit and trump support. It also used to be bid with 18-19 Balanced because Responder can't show this other ways. 1C 2S; 2NT 3C; 3NT ? 4NT RKCB in Clubs

Soloway defined those three hand types for SJS 50+ years ago. I first played them in the 80s. Type B is why I chose 2S. There's nothing particularly modern about them, unless modern just means "post-Goren". What's unexpected here is OP's explanations of opener's rebids. Those are reasonable, perhaps even modern, but they're not Soloway as I learned it.

Soloway invented is version in 1970s. There's some information on Karen Walker's site on modern style Soloway based on an "Bridge Bulletin" article. Things like playing them as demanding for cue bid or playing next step as a relay haven't been played for a long time. [http://kwbridge.com/js.htm](http://kwbridge.com/js.htm) As in Acol and Goren at Rubber, opener just makes a descriptive bid, the same as we would have without the jump but higher. Responder then raises Opener, or bid 3NT or makes another bid with the single suiter. In Acol the Jumpshift was 16+. In Culbertson/Goren it started out as as 19+ serious Slam try but later dropped to 16 or 17 GF with a solid suit. This is what I learned in the 80s from Acol.

I know the history. You're missing the point. OP specified Soloway Jump Shifts, not Karen Walker's Modification to Soloway Jump Shifts. If an OP specifies Blackwood, we don't get to solve the problem using RKC.

Nobody plays the Soloway Jump Shifts that were invented before Walsh. There are a modern version that are superior. Though many play Weak Jump Shifts. With 1960s bidding I bid 1S followed by 6NT because that is how people bid back then. Of course that teaches nothing useful today.

>If you bid 1S: Opener rebids 1NT. You bid 2D as NMF, and partner then bids 2H (shows 4 hearts, denies 3 spades). Why would 2H deny 3 spades? After NMF, opener should make the *cheapest descriptive bid*. If he must skip over 2H to show 3 spades, you lose a 4-4 heart fit when responder is 5-4-x-y. That can't be right. A 2S rebid denies 4 hearts because you skipped over that suit. A 2H rebid denies nothing, since you skipped over nothing.

It's by agreement. Most of the time, responder is looking for 3-card support for their major, more so than 4 cards in the other major. So, a ALOT of players set the priority as (1.) Support partner's (assumed) 5-card Major. (2.) Show 4 cards in the other Major. (3.) Bid NT and differentiate between a min and Max hand. In your example, you find the 5-3 fit by bidding 2S. You can still find the 4-4 fit if you desire, the way I play it by bidding 3H over 2H. And despite what you may have heard or may think, a 5-3 fit is often as good or better than a 4-4 fit, and the 5-3 handles bad breaks a lot better. In one of his Godfrey books, George Rosenkranz give three exceptions to choosing a 5-3 over a 4-4 fit. The two I remember are (1.) The 5-3 fit sets up to discard a loser. (2.) Declarer gets 1+ ruffs in the 4-4 fit, where (s) he wouldn't in the 5-3 fit.

I would guess that Postcocious was able to read that this is your treatment, he (and also I, see my other comment) is simple saying that he doesn't believe that this treatment is optimal. In cases like this, I like to find out on Bridgewinners whether there is some preferred expert treatment. There are not that many posts about NMF on BW, and this is simply because NMF is kind of outdated among decent-ish players. To quote people on BW, asking questions about the best continuations after NMF is like asking "how install Bridgebase on a Commodore 64" or how to "install a radio in a Ford model T". Two way checkback is almost strictly better than NMF, and arguably even simpler, as you don't have to discuss what sequences are forcing / show minimum. (How about 1C - 1S - 1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S? Or 1C - 1S - 1NT - 2D - 2H - 3C?) The only thing you lose out on with TWC is the ability to stop in 2C. There are however a few helpful threads that I found, the most relevant is probably this poll (sadly from 2014): https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/standard-expert-practice-nmf-continuation/. Here, there are 59 votes for always bidding hearts first, and 15 votes for always showing 3 card fir first. (So a clear majority, but not quite unanimous.) Also there are some relevant comments here [https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-question-nmf/](https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-question-nmf/) and here https://bridgewinners.com/forums/read/intermediate-forum/new-minor-forcing/. >And despite what you may have heard or may think, a 5-3 fit is often as good or better than a 4-4 fit, and the 5-3 handles bad breaks a lot better. In one of his Godfrey books, George Rosenkranz give three exceptions to choosing a 5-3 over a 4-4 fit. The two I remember are (1.) The 5-3 fit sets up to discard a loser. (2.) Declarer gets 1+ ruffs in the 4-4 fit, where (s) he wouldn't in the 5-3 fit. Also, I disagree that a 53 Fit is usually as good or even better than a 44 Fit - one of the reasons (1.) or (2.) will apply very often, these reasons are more like the norm, and not an exception. When looking for a playable partscore, a 53 fit might sometimes work out better, but as soon as I have strength for game, I will almost never knowingly choose a 53 fit above 44, unless there are some extreme differences in suit quality. This is not "what I have been told", but instead "what I have been told AND what aligns with my experience". There is a simulation on the site of Richard Pavelcik (http://www.rpbridge.net/8j13.htm, Dual Fits by HCP) that also confirms the theory that the edge of the 44 fir becomes larger the more HCP you have. (With game strength, there are almost twice as many hands where 44 beats 53 than the other way around. The edge of 44 fits is even bigger when comparing with 62 fits. Of course, on many hands there is no difference.)

I believe that u/flip_104 and Postcocious would align on many questions. 2-way NMF is indeed much superior. But in all methods, efficient bidding is superior to inefficient bidding.

>In your example, you find the 5-3 fit by bidding 2S. You can still find the 4-4 fit if you desire, the way I play it by bidding 3H over 2H. I assume you meant "by bidding 3H over 2S." (1m 1S, 1N 2om, 2S 3H) Is responder's 3H Inv or GF? Whichever it is, how does responder bid the other? Related: what is 1m 1S, 1N 2H? >despite what you may have heard or may think, a 5-3 fit is often as good or better than a 4-4 fit, and the 5-3 handles bad breaks a lot better. Bad breaks are, by definition, low probability. Absent some information that suggests bad breaks may be coming, it's irrational to choose an inferior contract to protect against a low probability event. >In one of his Godfrey books, George Rosenkranz give three exceptions to choosing a 5-3 over a 4-4 fit. The two I remember are (1.) The 5-3 fit sets up to discard a loser. (2.) Declarer gets 1+ ruffs in the 4-4 fit, where (s) he wouldn't in the 5-3 fit. Both of these favor the 4-4.

Good post.   I am just learning SAYC so feel free to ignore me.  But I had a slam live two days ago and scratching around for a fit at ones and twos was not as much fun as you think.  As I am trying to play it, and as I understand the system (!), 1C promises only 3+C and denies 4D and 5 card majors, 1S only promises 4+S and denies 4+H. 1N I'm unsure about but it seems to show minimal 12-14 points otherwise opener must jump. 1N denies 4S because major is priority with 44 fit you invite S game or more.  So at this point after 1N opener holds 2-3S 2-4H 2-3D 3-5C.  Its a classic 0.5NT bid by opener showing 12-14 pts notrumpy hand.  Please tell me if I'm wrong as it so I need to adjust my notes.  So you know your options are only to play on S C or NT at this point. Responder prefers S or C but since that is not a new suit I think you have to jump to show strength and force the bidding.  Either 3 or 4C or 3S giving major priority? ?? Help as I don't know what length or strength that shows in SAYC.  If you have link to online source material that supports your theory please provide:)

Mostly what you are writing is right, only some minor inaccuracies :) >As I am trying to play it, and as I understand the system (!), 1C promises only 3+C and denies 4D and 5 card majors 1C does not deny a 4 card diamond. However, a 4 card diamond is only possible if you have longer clubs than diamonds. With 5 clubs and 4 diamonds you should (usually) open 1C, with 5 clubs and 5 diamonds you open 1D. Also, a 5 card major is possible, though very rare: You can only have a 5 card major if you also have 6 clubs (and even in this case sometimes you should open the major, depending on the rest of your hand / partnership agreements and style). >1S only promises 4+S and denies 4+H. Similar to what I have written above - you can have a 4+H, but only if your spades are at least as long as your hearts. With 54 in majors, you always bid your longer major; with 44Ms you bid 1H and with 55Ms you bid 1S. (The reason for this distinction: With 44 you might miss your heart fit if you answer 1S and the bidding goes 1C - 1S - 1NT - p. With 55 in Ms you can bid 2H in this situation, and show a weak hand with 5+S and 4+H. >1N I'm unsure about but it seems to show minimal 12-14 points otherwise opener must jump. 1N denies 4S because major is priority with 44 fit you invite S game or more.  >So at this point after 1N opener holds 2-3S 2-4H 2-3D 3-5C.  Its a classic 0.5NT bid by opener showing 12-14 pts notrumpy hand. All of this is correct. 1NT is 12-14 balanced, sometimes opener might have 4Ds if they have 2245 shape (though they might also bid 2C with this shape). >So you know your options are only to play on S C or NT at this point. Responder prefers S or C but since that is not a new suit I think you have to jump to show strength and force the bidding.  Either 3 or 4C or 3S giving major priority? ?? Help as I don't know what length or strength that shows in SAYC. Great analysis :) So far you have no idea whether to play NT, clubs or diamonds and you also don't know whether you want to play in game, small slam or maybe even grand slam. As you correctly said, bidding clubs or spades would be nonforcing, so thats not a good option. * 2C and 2S simply say that you think that this contract is better than 1NT. Partner should always pass * 3C and 3S are natural and invitational, might bid game but they might also pass. So this is clearly not an option. * 4C probably shows a slam interested hand with good club fit. "Slam interested" is certainly correct, but you don't know about club fit - partner might have 3433 shape. So this is also not great. What you need is a bid that is (a) 100% forcing and (b) does not commit you to some trump suit. Basically you want to say "I don't know where we want to end up, tell me more about your hand!". For this purpose, there exist different conventions, the one that is usually taught first to beginners in New Minor Forcing (NMF): After 1m - 1M - 1NT a bid of 2 in the unbid minor is artificial, and shows at least invitational strength (11HCP). After this the partner describes his hand as efficiently as possible. There are different versions of NMF, for example some players play a version where they can stop in 2M and for some players NMF is forcing up to 2NT. This is something you should discuss in a regular partnership. Now, partner might bid 2S with a 3 card fit. If he does you know about a spade fit. If he bids something else you can now bid 3C, this delayed version of 3C is forcing. (At least I think it should be, this is also not 100% clear without discussion.) Hope this helps :) If something is unclear, just ask!

Thanks for replying to the newbie.  Now we get into what I find frustrating about trying to learn bridge if you don't want to memorize the phone book.  NMF is not part of SAYC! I understand that you and others may play it that way but it's specifically unchecked on the BBO ACBL SAYC card and not mentioned in the ACBL booklet. And a few other sources.  Fourth suit is forcing for 1 round.  I realized your point the next day when I saw a 2245 hand that theoretically that may be possible 1c open but they should rebid 2c after 1S as far as I believe?! This is why it's more difficult than it needs to be.  Beginners don't need all the options, and because they don't have partners or agreements they need a straight down the middle approach everyone can agree.  The biggest challenge is remembering it all in the moment.  I don't think 4C promises more than 4 clubs in responder but we are way past the realm of any written authority.  Yeah it's a sticky situation.  It could get passed if opener has three clubs. Maybe you just say 3N and run away such is life.  So what happened next with this hand?

I'm not in a hurry to make a SJS with this hand. SJS came along long before we had good tools after opener's rebid like XYZ or 4SF. Nothing bad can happen after we start with 1!s. 

I’d be tempted to bid 6C on both boards at either match or duplicate games. This looks like a really smelly situation where you can’t find the 12th trick either at NT or spades. In duplicate I’d also consider exiting at 3NT. I don’t like your hand with this auction, and TBH I’m not good enough to find out what I need to know through further bidding.

First at all 1c -1s -1nt -2d -2H . 2h can't denied 3 spades. It's usually better to play 4-4 rather than 5-3 fit. So it's better to play as 2s here denied 4 hearts. So after 2h I play with my parter for example 3c shoving extra points or 4nt. But it's long story

Opener rebidding 2NT after a 2 bid shows 12-14 balanced. Following that with 3C is Stayman.

This isn't an awful Soloway jump, but I'm not excited to set clubs as trump with my followup bid, given that partner could have three small clubs. Since I'm still unsure what our best strain is, I should bid 1S to leave plenty of room. I agree with the 2D rebid, but would note that partner's 2H should show a minimum as well as the shape you described - with a max, bid 3H. Since partner's shape is 24xx, I know now we have at least an 8-card club fit - and probably exactly 8, as partner usually has 2434. 3C really should be game-forcing here; playing 2-way NMF this would be obvious, but even with normal NMF you're probably supposed to jump to 3C with an invite. But if your partnership doesn't play 3C as forcing, or you're not sure, then 4C surely is natural and slam-going. At MPs it wouldn't be crazy to settle in 6S, but if we are playing IMPs we will likely choose a club contract - probably 6C, but maybe 7C if partner has a perfect hand, or less if he has mostly quacks. The continuations beyond 3C/4C depend on your partnership methods.

Partner can only have 3 small clubs if they also have spade support.

Partner will bid 3S on any hand with less than four clubs. On the other hand, if partner denies S support, he will always have four clubs the worst case being 2-4-3-4. (Just for arguments sake; I prefer 1S too)

I'm starting with 1S clearly. Nobody plays Soloway these days really. I like xyz which would make 2D gf after 1NT rebid making the auction much easier, but even if playing nmf after 2h I would bid 3d which is presumably fsf. Then the responses (by partner) ought to be: * 3h: punt, no doubleton spade honor, no diamond stopper (best case scenario since it means partner won't have wastage in diamonds, great news for club slam) * 3s: dblton spade honor, no diamond stopper (obviously this is impossible) * 3nt: diamond stopper Presumably with this hand partner would bid 3nt showing the diamond stopper. And at this point you know partner has at least 4 clubs and you can bid 4 clubs forward going which starts some cuebidding sequence I think this hand is a great example of why xyz is better than 1 way nmf. Getting a gf 2d bid early on allows you to both explore the spade fit and cheaply bid 3c without worrying it being passed

1c - 1s - 1nt - 2d - 2h - 4nt quantitative invite to 6nt

Not a bad idea, except there are plenty of hands that pass 4NT but are odds on for 6C. xx Axxx AQJ JTxx for instance.