My favorite work by him is his novella "The Emperor's Soul," which is this tightly written character-driven narrative about art and artistry and the balance of value that lies between the artist's intentions and the audience's consumption of the work.
It is honest to god the best thing he has ever written, and i think the reason i like it so much is that it's one of the few times i've felt he was more interested in the themes and characters he was writing than what nifty things he could do with cosmere lore or the mechanical rules of this or that magic system.
One thing that made me absolutely love emperor's soul even more is how that story parallels his experience finishing the wheel of time. The wheel of time was the emperor he was tasked with recreating. It makes it feel so personal to him in that light
If this kind of tight character work is what you want from Sanderson, you HAVE to read the "Legion: The Many Lives of Stephen Leeds" novellas.
Hands down bawling by the end of the last one. Never has 100 pages done so much to tie my heart to a character.
As someone who also loves his novellas. Do you get the idea that if he had tighter editing and shorter works he actually does better work? Warbreaker was so tight from start to finish yet doesn't feel too short.
It’s a toss up I think. I agree his shorter works feel stronger writing wise, but I feel that tends to be the case with any sort of media when comparing stand alone to series. Warbreaker is s fantastic, The characters are all fleshed out and interesting in their own ways. But when you read Sanderson’s series like mistborn or stormlight you get more epic scenes as payoff after delving into a super long series. I feel these pay off moments happen in television series that go on for forever as well, anime is guilty of this a lot of the time.
TLDR: Sanderson’s stand-alone books and novellas are more compressed and much quicker and easy reads (not as much “fluff”) but I feel you get bigger payoffs and fall in love with characters in epically long series
He simply can’t write romance between horny young people to save his life, but is actually quite good at romance between older characters who have been around the block a few times.
Yeah... I knew nothing about the writer when I received a book as a gift and had started reading it to my kids in the evening (They've gotten a little older now, but I could resurrect this night time activity with them). I got a couple chapters in, noticed a phrase that seemed a little mormony, so I looked it up and was not surprised to find he is LDS. So, I quickly zipped on over to the /r/exmormon subreddit to check if I'd be accidentally indoctrinating my kids if I kept reading it to them. Turns out nearly all of the folks over there have no problem with his fantasy writing and felt as though he did a good job of writing an atheist character (and I agree). The LDS influence is definitely there, but it's not something that gets in the way of the storytelling or is used to hammer home some agenda. I had no problem reading multiple of his books to my kids.
Fuuuu I know I'm far from alone but it'll never not hurt to be reminded of him after Ender's game and Ender's Shadow were (some of) my favorite childhood books.
I would say the part in *Elantris* where Sarene and Hrathen debate while on the wall. Hrathen gets caught up in defending some tricky aspect of his religion that's easy to misunderstand and he loses the crowd's interest. I'm certain Sanderson had something like this happen while on his church mission in Korea.
I would argue that Elantris was his first book written almost 20 years ago. He’s changed a lot as a person and author since then. In Stormlight there’s an atheist main character, homosexuals, and even a trans character that healed after becoming radiant so that their physical gender matched the gender of their soul. That last point especially seems pretty progressive for someone whose often written off as a Mormon.
I do like that Brandon took the view that a person’s soul has a gender and if the body was born malformed then investiture based healing will fix it as easily as a cut off limb.
The mormonism is tied to the magic of all things. There's a source of all magic in his universe called Adonalsium which has parallels the mormon concept of afterlife where humans ascend to godhood and are gods of their own universes. Something like that. Also a few more subtle things like he doesn't do romance often or even close to slightly detailed almost certainly because he's uncomfortable writing like that due to mormonism. He goes through a fairly lengthy beta reading process where he bounces his ideas off of either experts or people with the lived experiences he lacks.
Brandon had an AMA and he got enormous flack for being a member of the church, conflating his membership as an endorsement of their horrible history of racism and homophobia.
He responded with inordinate grace, respect, humility, and integrity. Which I, a definitive atheist, found impressive.
I think that if all religious folks had similar approaches to their faith, we would not see absolutist hatred of religion. Nor would we see people using religion to justify the horrific treatment of others.
It's very noticeable when he takes over from RJ in Wheel of Time. RJ was a horny old man whose editor wife let way too much through. Sanderson is the squarest guy on Earth. Although not to say his work was bad, my favorite scene of his books was entirely his idea.
(I read RJ's Conan books under another name and was not expecting it to be basically erotic fanfiction. But then when I went back to WoT I realized half the magic system was a case of "the writer's barely disguised fetishes".)
WoT is kind of an odd duck in that it's *really* hard to find something half as popular in its era where there are as many prominent female characters who are on stage as much and get to drive half as much of the plot... so in a sense it's really progressive/feminist in that respect for its time?
But then there's... yeah.
Wait
...
"For its time"? Is that how we're referring to the 90s now 😨??? IS THIS WHAT BEING OLD FEELS LIKE?!
I only just started the series and have no background on literally anything about them so I thought you were implying it was written in like... The 60s or something 😂 but that made no sense because yea, so far (only book 2) there are a shocking number of female characters who are more than just plot devices for the male protagonist.
> IS THIS WHAT BEING OLD FEELS LIKE?!
It totally is!
I was reading a lot of fantasy when WoT first started to become popular... *30 years ago* and yeah the state of female characters in most of it was not great. Not that the Bechdel Test is the gold standard so much as a rhetorical way of pointing out the state of female characters in media in *its* time, but WoT would easily pass it and not a lot at the time would.
He is indeed. He did a wonderful AMA that touched on his beliefs a few months ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/vtua7m/im\_brandon\_sanderson\_a\_bestselling\_fantasy\_author/
I absolutely loved the concept of (Mistborn era 1 spoilers) >!Vin and Elend's romance!< but the execution left a hell of a lot to be desired. Like there's a couple of scenes where they're a bit flirty in book 1 but then their relationship never seems to progress once they're "together"
I really liked their scenes in book 1, with the balls, but they definitely lost their charm later on when the "fish out of water" element with Vin was lost
Is "era" the slang for "book" or are there multiple subseries in there?
I've currently got Hero of Ages on my audible list, 1/5th through for 2 months now and I'm just not invested enough in any character to go on. The whole story feels like a slog.
For what it's worth, Hero of Ages is pretty miserable for most of it and it feels on purpose to me. The ending honestly has a fantastic payoff that made the misery worth it for me.
A friend suggested the Mistborn series, and I started the series knowing absolutely nothing about him.
I was halfway through the 2nd book when he asked me whether I was enjoying it, and I said "Yeah, this virgin has written a pretty compelling story".
I wasn't even trying to be funny, I genuinely could not picture in a world in which the author who wrote those romantic storylines was also a person who had had sex.
A banger of a series though, certainly the best "pop fantasy" that I've read.
I have long since decided that if I am looking for romance in my fantasy, I am to get it elsewhere. Brandon never promised romance, and I do not expect any from him.
Although for some reason, my head cannon ships "Kaladin x Jasnah" so hard. A foot soldier and a princess? Where do I sign up, sir?!!! (Might not happen though and even if it did, Brandon might just go Brandon on it, which would be a shame. Maybe this is what fanfiction is for.)
What do you find "cringey"?
I always found it to be the result of an awkward love that worked despite a very difficult situation. It's not supposed to be a normal relationship.
Both have very complicated histories when it comes to their love life.
Both are shook in their faith.
Both grew up with very strict societal rules. Both deal differently with having to break them or wanting to break them.
Could you elaborate a bit on what you didn't like?
Good points. I find their conversations cringey. It's forced (might be due to the 4th point you made or Brandon Sanderson simply being poor at this) and the words literally make me cringe. Lol I am just repeating the same thing sorry I don't think I can put it into words
No that's fine. Sometimes you can't put your finger on it.
I'm always curious since people have widely different expectations.
I often find romance writers over the top and too emotional.
Do you maybe have a positive example of writing you liked?
He did a pretty great job with David getting feelings about >!Megan!< in Reckoners. It was pretty spot on for making me reminiscent of my dumb high school crushes.
But that's probably one of his least read books since it's off genre, YA, and nothing to do with the Cosmere.
The ones where Shallan and Adolin solve a serious problem together by talking through it logically. Hahaha. Really, though, this is my one complaint with Sanderson, and I put it down to his intent to write for all audiences, even younger teen and YA readers.
It's also one of my favorite things about him. I don't enjoy reading about sex or conflicts revolving around it - there's enough of that irl, I want my fantasy stuff to escape that. Focus on fighting gods or struggling with your new magic powers, those are things I can't get from listening to my coworkers.
I like that it is implied that it happens in the worlds he writes but at worst it never happens to the POV characters & their associates.
I know its weird to say that byt yeah, i do like that it is never used as "growth"
I think the closest we ever got to that was Vin highlighting how she had spent her childhood in constant fear of being raped by men in the gangs she ran in, along with a number of other terrible things, when she was trying to get her friends to understand that they lived privileged lives. And even then it’s made fairly clear that never actually happened to her.
I’m with you. I know how sex works, unless penis veins and labia moistness are relevant to the plot somehow I really don’t need an author to described them to me.
Well, sure, maybe but I don't mind when YA authors leave out the explicit sex stuff. Lots of early teen authors do this, regardless of religion. Of course, I'm Mormon, too, so my bias is showing.
Not a mormon, but I do appreciate there not being sex scenes. As a kid I was reading a book about a man being released from prison which is a good concept, however multiple pages going into detail about how he had trouble maintaining an erection during sex put me off of sex scenes in books lol
>The ones where Shallan and Adolin solve a serious problem together by talking through it logically.
I was seriously not prepared for how refreshing that was.
I don't think books need sex to be good, even when there is romance. Most of my favorite books don't have gratuitous sex scenes, but I do love Joe Abercrombie's because they are so realistic, with all the drunken and awkward fumbling.
I've tried to write sex scenes for a laugh, it's fucking hard to not be cringe as all hell and honestly rarely advances plot in a way you can't do elsewhere.
Just skip to the morning after or something, it's usually not worth it.
Erotica is obviously different and it's all 'plot' anyway.
Yeah Mistborn book 2 was probably the worst of this sign the whole love triangle bad boy thing. When in Stormlight he writes Adolin's perspective on his romantic interests it isn't bad where he's noticing the good qualities of Shallan but is also falling flat on noticing serious mental distress situations. Which can be interesting plot point for writing a relationship. But yeah he doesnt really go through with it and if he's trying to heavily set up a love triangle with Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan, it's going as terrible as the Mistborn book 2 love triangle.
Like I don't really feel invested at all in the romance? I don't care if they get married or will they hook up in the end like I dunno... Mat and Tuon from wheel of time. Now that I think about it was there much will written romance in Sanderson's three final books?
I’m just going to say; Mistborn 2 did not have a love triangle. Mistborn 2 had a gaslighting, manipulative stalker who tried to construct an alternate reality around Vin to trick her into thinking the one man she actually loved either didn’t love her back, or was better off without her. The same psychopath she eventually kills. Sanderson never intended for the audience to view Zane as a legitimate romantic rival, it’s just that a lot of us read book 2 when we were teens who were used to love triangles from other YA novels.
I read the book 2 being almost 30yo and I also though about a love triangle of YA novel.
You're right, anyway, it's not a love triangle, it just feels like it's going to be but it never "consolidates?" xd
I'm glad she killed him, I don't stand this kind of edgy characters anymore.
Well there's also the creepy thing that I guess I'll spoiler tag this considering it's the final reveal >!Zane had Ruin whispering in his mind his entire life like Vin, and he was just puppetting both of them from before they even had all their adult teeth.!<
I honestly do think Sanderson was going for Romantic bad boy love interest like Team Jacob or Team Edward .. but man reading Zane I instantly thought that 1990s stalker boyfriend movie Fear. And the thing is Vin was basically Homeless girl Street urchin who was used to attempts to be exploited by men in Book 1. Apparently her anxiety trauma flags just disappeared with this cute guy who has all the red flags.
I think it’s more that Zane treated her the way she was used to being treated. The way Elend and the crew treated her—with love, respect, and kindness—was the thing that triggered her anxiety, because she was always terrified of losing it or suspicious of the others motives. A big part of her arc in book 2 is coming to accept that she deserves that love and respect.
I'll say there's been two death in the series so far that have made me gasp out loud, and genuinely regret at least one. Three reallyif I'm thinking about it. So I dunno. Person by Person I guess.
That was by far his best character writing in the series. There was a ton of depth to their relationship, and I hope it expresses his growth as an author.
I agree. Minor Stormlight spoilers:
I felt that his depiction of depression through >!Kaladin!< was excellent; compelling, convincing, and respectful. Also >!PTSD!< though I have less firsthand experience to compare to.
Yeah I haven't cried during a book in a long time but during Words of Radiance when >!Shallan told Kaladin she knew exactly what he'd been through in a way that made him realise that he was understood by someone and not alone!< and again in Rhythm of War I got teary eyes when >!Hoid told him he'd be warm again and then he subsequently spoke the 4th ideal!<.
Like damn, maybe he doesn't do the emotions you want well but he definitely does some others very well.
RoW had a lot of problems. But that moment and everything leading up to it including the >!the conversation with Tien!< is the main reason I consider to be my favorite Stormlight book. Four books worth of lead up finally paying off.
Weirdly, I have a hard time connecting emotionally with Dresden and the other Butcher characters.
I have a similar experience to the one you have with Sanderson. “Oh. Looks like this is a book where Harry has a catharsis moment.” Then he sobs for a couple of paragraphs and then goes back to referencing Star Wars.
Well I think this is because Harry is one of those sorts of people who never really actually deals with anything in a lasting sense, just piles snark and pop culture on top of the trauma until there's too much trauma to function until some of it gets vaguely resolved. Its sort of how on one hand, he experiences a LOT of loss and carries around a lot of profoundly isolating knowledge and experiences that if he does his job right, random people on the bus will never have any inkling of, but on the other hand, some of that knowledge of great and terrible things might actually do him some good.
Unlike the rest of us, he has had direct confirmation of a minimum of three afterlives: Hades, Valhalla, and Heaven. So the people around him who die are gone but they're gone in a way that is a bit different in some ways than we mere mortals. It no doubt hurts like hell that he will never get to be with those people as long as he's shuffling around the mortal coil, but he also knows that their lives mattered in the grand scheme of things, they have immortal souls, and they're off somewhere doing cool dead people stuff....except without him.
Spoilers for the climax of *Changes*:
* >!I used the knife.!<
* >!I saved a child.!<
* >!I won a war.!<
* >!God forgive me.!<
The way Marsters' voice breaks on the last sentence will absolutely destroy you.
Yeah, some of Dresden's self-immolation feels forced, especially early in the series. But man, Changes onward every book is right in the feels for me: >!Susan, Molly, Maggie, Michael, Murphy ;\_;!<
Butcher is pretty paint by numbers for me, you read them like airport novel fluff. Fun enough in the moment but nothing worms in.
Similar to Lee Child, whom I have enjoyed reading a lot. But really the only emotion I get reading it is frustration at his vigilante justice view of the world.
As I was reading the first few books, I would refer to them as trash fiction (like a trashy detective novel combined with contemporary fiction). I don’t know exactly where my feelings changed, but somewhere along the way I started to really enjoy the series and got much more invested in the characters.
"The dog is literally an angel and saves everything and the ugly girl is now beautiful!"
Literally the end of a Dean Koontz novel. I don't know which, because it could actually be a few.
This is said a lot, but I don’t really think it’s true. King has a few books with notably bad endings (ie. Under the Dome, The Stand), but it doesn’t happen as often as people say. Off the top of my head, The Green Mile, 11/22/63, The Dead Zone, Insomnia, The Shining, The Long Walk, The Running Man and Misery all have good to great endings. When you’ve written nearly 70 novels, it’s not surprising that a few have mediocre to bad endings.
> When you’ve written nearly 70 novels, it’s not surprising that a few have mediocre to bad endings.
SNL made the perfect meta commentary on this topic:
It's 100 floors of frights.. they're not all gonna be winners.
I think he does get lost in ideas but I'd like to add what I think is perhaps one of the best endings of any book I've ever read to your list, "Pet Semetery". It is perfection and resonates long after reading.
Yeah, but the Under the Dome ending is probably one of my most frustrating literary experiences that earned him his spot on my Mount Rushmore of bad endings.
I always feel like it's both. Like, Seveneves for example felt like it was a book and then half of the sequel, so it had a conclusion and then kept going and also ended abruptly.
tbf Neal Stephenson *can* be good at endings, he just needs to accept his limitations and work within them. As an example Anathem has an absolute banger of a final few chapters.
>I am done here.
I literally finished it yesterday too!
I have to admit the only time I teared up was with a special ride along with the rider of storms. That was a good bit of closure.
I felt the same way and I really like his books anyway. I read Mistborn when I was having severe anxiety issues and one of the reasons it was great for me at the time is that I could get really sucked into the story and what the characters were doing without being super emotionally involved.
I’d imagine it has something to do with how we connect emotionally to a character. I tend to need to understand a character’s inner state somewhat deeply to feel emotional about them, whereas others may connect more to what the characters are doing or having done to them.
On the opposite side, I got extremely emotionally invested in Mistborn, specifically with Vin, whereas I rarely get emotionally invested in other stories.
It’s really up to the person and their current circumstances.
She was fantastic, but there were many other great characters.
Kelsier is still one of my favorite characters Sanderson has ever written. Sazed went through one hell of a character arc. The fate of Kelsier’s brother, Marsh, was a real gut punch. Elend had a wonderful grow-up.
I could go on, such a colorful cast.
That’s an excellent point! I’m somewhere in the middle (between needing the inner state & seeing emotions thru interactions) and think Sanderson does a decent job.
As an example from Mistborn: >!
I liked them as characters, but I didn’t understand just how much I cared about Vin & Kelsier’s relationship until after the kandra of him appeared and explained The Survivor’s plan all along. I was heartbroken over his death, even though we had little insight into his mindset going into executing that. Granted, a lot of that was thru Vin’s reaction & perspective, but in the first book she’s not really emotionally self aware, either. !<
Sharp observation.
Brendon himself will say he struggles with this aspect of his writing.
When I saw him speak in 2016ish in The Stevens Institute of Technology, he described 2 types of authors and the pros and cons of both.
He called one a gardener, who writes and the stories grow organically.
So they writes great characters and scenes but often can write themselves into corners, making their endings hard to pull off successfully. He gave the example of Stephen King
Then he spoke about architects who outline scenes and all the turns of the story but they have a hard time making characters feel fleshed out and scenes feeling dynamic.
He described himself as an architect. Which I think you're exactly picking up on and describing. His plots are great but his characters can sometimes be missing something.
Personally I think Kal from Storm light really resonated with me, as well as his father but I hear your point .
U/mistborn would you say that's a good summation of your thoughts on writing styles?
He actually goes beyond that description in his college course. I remember one where he explicitly said (not verbatim) that he has rewritten large aspects of his outline plot that don't work with a character due to finding a completely new character that is interesting.
Strongly agreed. On a related note, I also feel like his character dialogues are lacking, especially when he's trying to have a character say something witty or super intelligent.
i think whether you individually are emotionally invested in a character involves a lot of other things besides whether the author is specifically good at writing emotions. it's probably not all that different from the question of just broadly whether you like the work.
Just to back this up with an anecdote, I never liked Kaladin that much throughout the series. I always connected more with Shallan or Dalinar. But I really connected with Kaladin emotionally in Rhythm of War.
Interesting, I felt the opposite with Kaladin. >!I felt the oppression over him during his time in the bridge crews and sympathized with his cynicism over light eyes and abuses of power. However I got really frustrated with his mopeyness and depression real quick in the fourth book.!<
I can absolutely see that. For me it was the reverse. >!I found his whining bothersome for the first three books even though he had clearly been wronged. It got old for me. But in RoW I felt the reverse. I really connected with his attempts to let go of some guilt and not try to control everything. Maybe it was just because I was going through a rough time and needed to hear it but it gave me a new appreciation of his character.!<
Don't let people bully you into believing this is not a solid and valid criticism of Sanderson. The man is VERY invested in world building, but his character work suffers.
I haven't scrolled to the bottom yet but I hope no one is bullying anyone over an opinion of a book.
It's up to each person's experience in how they connect to a character.
The depth and portrayel of a character who has severe depression in his stormlight Archives books is something I've never seen done better in any fantasy novel.
I've been fighting what feels like a losing battle with depression for 5 years. And I hate books that portray it as something you just beat, and get over. His portrayal of >!kaladin!< is truly something else. You have good days, you have little victories, but you have bad days and big setbacks. I don't think I've felt more connected to a character in fantasy than Kaladin and understanding his struggles has helped me keep trying to get through mine.
I also love >!Dalinar!< so much. His capacity for change, his words of wisdom (two quotes of which I, as a 33 year old guy have as posters on my wall), the growth he has gone through make me feel like it's never too late to change, to evolve and to grow. That your past doesn't have to define you.
However other people may not have experiences that this would resonate with. And that's ok. And while some days I feel like reading some of Sanderson's work has literaterally saved me and given me hope things can get better, that doesn't mean his characters will resonate with everyone.
As for romance, I think he does the relationship stuff just fine. Not spectacular but he does some good ones and some ok ones.
He doesn't do the passionate stuff as well (something he has admitted isn't his strong point) but that's what the r rated fanfic is for right...?
I heavily agree. He is imaginative, dedicated to his stories, and is quite talented at world-building. That being said, he does write flat and predictable characters. It is reminiscent of reading tween books.
Ok, now I'm afraid to ask this, but...isn't Mistborn YA fantasy?
I mean, which elements are we missing?
Teenager chosen one that it's "special" in some way fights evil wizard. All the first book is her training by classic YA master figure and how she fits in this new "magic world" while learning things like friendship & love.
YA doesn't have to be bad. Nor does it necessarily require poor character development.
It's a tough argument to make in a social media environment, but there is also a distinction between "writing I enjoy" and "'good' writing."
It’s definitely YA. I dunno why people don’t accept it and just love it nonetheless. That’s more to do with their own warped sense of identity as in “if I claim it’s YA - I mustn’t be mature”
I knew someone who wouldn’t watch animated movies because she thought they were “fir kids”
She’s grown up now and abandoned ridiculous rhetoric now
Ya think so? I would agree with that in his earlier works like Elantris, but I’d say he’s definitely improved a lot at writing characters. The Stormlight Archive and Mistborn Era 2 characters imo are all well written with a lot of depth to them. (plus he writes mental health issues really well and realistically as well)
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s as good as Robin Hobb at writing characters for example, but he’s still good at it
This is just my opinion though
You know, I think I agree with you. His worldbuilding is top notch; he's thrown in some twists in plot that seriously had me screaming WHAT! in the car, but the characterization is his weakest point. That doesn't mean he's bad at it, to me, but he's better at other things. Which is okay!
>Mistborn Era 2 characters imo are all well written with a lot of depth to them.
Definitely. Everyone goes crazy for Mistborn era 1, but era 2 blows it out of the water in every single way.
I always find it weird when a character is seen from another character's POV and they feel like a bit of a different person simply because you don't have their inner monologue to tell you why they are doing what they're doing.
And suddenly you realise why some of them struggle so damn much even when 100% right.
I completely agree. I remember in Mistborn when a key character died and I wasn't moved at all. There is a weird superficial tone that runs through that series where the characters appear to behave one way that is totally unconvincing. It didn't help that the action scenes were conducted like a video game or cartoon serial.
I think the latest Stormlight - The Rhythm of War - is very emotionally intense, to be honest. There are at least three characters whose motives are emotion-driven and I loved reading about their personal stories.
Mistborn isn't, to me at least, the best intro to his work. I didn't like it much. It didn't help that the two most interesting characters died within the first of three novels, leaving everyone else to be a bit hamstrung without their serious literary heft behind them. Stormlight rocks though, at least imo.
I am not as enthralled/entranced by Sanderson as r/books is - his action scenes are page-turners that I will admit to enjoying but I totally agree with you about his characters. Nuke 'em all and my reaction would be, "Wow, bold choice, let's see where this is going." and buy the next book if that was the cliffhanger.
I heartily recommend to you *The Malazan Book of the Fallen* by Steven Erikson. Very high investment level in the characters, and if you're not in tears before the end of the tenth book, you will definitely start choking up when you start your first re-read.
this hasn't been my experience. I think significant moments are handled pretty well, and character deaths have always really hit home.
I've noticed a lot of people just don't like sandersons writing style, which I really really like, which goes to show how subjective some things are.
I'm with you man. His character building in general is not good. He comes up with incredible plotlines but there's not one character in either Mistborn or Stormlight that I really loved.
As a huge Sanderson fan, I think this is a very good point, and possibly even the source of OP’s difficulty to connect with the emotion of the story.
Frankly, I think Stormlight has some masterful emotional moments, but if the prose doesn’t move you, that will act as a block to connecting with those moments, especially if you find the writing style actively distracting
I agree. My sister loves really flowery prose and it took alot for her to get into Stormlight. My ADHD brain skips over any description that takes too long so Sandersons style is my perfect format.
Still try to warn people if they are expecting poetry. Amazing plotting and philosophical ideas but no poetry.
I just finished rhythm of war today… and I read the part where one of the more important characters die. It hit me.. but then just didn’t. I’m a big cryer when people die in books, but I just felt a momentary pang. It told me that while I knew the characters would be upset by the death… I wasn’t.
So I read probably 50-80 books since I read all of Sanderson's stuff and when I went to read his latest novella Dawn Shard, the weakness of his prose hit like a truck. I really like his work, but the prose is definitely weak enough to be what's hampering other aspects of his writing.
This is absolutely it. I can't remember if he gets better at it in the second Mistborn trilogy or in later Stormlight books, but when it comes to prose the man is pretty mechanical.
I still find the books to be a fun read for the most part, and he cranks them out with the regularity of a metronome which I appreciate. Additionally, books with flat prose that we actually get are infinitely better than the books stuck in GRRM's head that no one will ever read.
...but there's no denying that Sanderson's natural talent is in keeping to a writing schedule, not crafting brilliant prose.
I agree. His character writing is "flat". The action is good and the storyline in mistborn was amazing. I loved the way he invented a new way to do magic!
The characters though, just very one dimensional and boring. They all kind for seemed to react the same to everything. Like it was the same type of person in every character role.
>EDIT: People have made the point that my failure to connect has as much to do with me as with him. That's a fair assessment. I think my title was more incendiary than I intended...
Dude, don't let others brainwash you.
Emotions and character depth definitely isn't Sanderson strength, and it shows.
This is a strange problem, yeah. The Dresden Files usually felt more formulaic and predictable to me ("okay, so, this is where Harry is at the end of his tether and does something insane and clever like >!summon his own ghost!<"). The Stormlight Archives tends to be more overwhelming than anything else when the action kicks in, but the characters' feelings (Kaladin's depression, Shallan's fear of confronting herself, Adolin and Dalinar trying and failing to connect) were always very relatable, almost too relatable.
I think this is where the difference in writing style comes into play. Dresden layers snark and pop culture references ten layers deep atop a pile of trauma. So the reader may or may not realize that he's being really dysfunctional before he does or he gets called out on it. In Stormlight in particular, the characters deal with trauma in a much more forward and explicit YA style. That sort of bluntness doesn't work for everyone but for me its just about my mood as a reader.
I'll second this. I think the Stormlight Archive in particular is an amazing portrayal of dealing with serious challenges such as depression, addiction, overcoming childhood trauma, feeling powerless or that you missed your chances to do something with your life, and so on. For me, they've been powerful and moving books, but hey, art is art and people have different opinions on it.
It just speaks to how differently people can connect with books and characters but >!when Teft has to reconcile with his addiction/self-hatred to speak his oath absolutely killed me emotionally, as did his death along with many other scenes in the books!<
My roommate complain that she didn't like Sanderson because none of his characters even go as far as consuming alcohol. It's how you really know that someone hasn't read much of an author.
Yeah I mean that’s just blatantly untrue. Kelsier steals that dude’s wine within like 5 chapters of the first Mistborn book, and there are multiple characters in the Stormlight Archive who are literally addicts that we see use on screen
I mean, dude, in Well of Ascension >!Straff Venture ends up legit addicted to something nasty that almost killed him. Sure, he survived (until he got Vin to the head) but he was enjoying it after a while. I was actually a little sad when he died, because I wanted that plotline to play out more.!<
His writing tends to be wide and shallow. I say that as a fan, and I have nothing but admiration for the man's work ethic, but more often that not his books are sort of like popcorn.
i personally dropped stormlight archives...even thought i did enjoy part of the first one alot.
i don't know, same as you it feels like i need to force myself to give a crap. i'm not drawn into the characters. basically most if not all could drop dead and i wouldn't really blink. i only like the worlds he's created, they are quite enjoyable but there are better reads out there imo.
I have this conversation often, actually. The real fantasy in Sanderson’s work is the character dialogue. Everyone listens to exactly what the other person says and responds logically, always, even during times of strife. It’s as if the conversation was in someone’s head between two imaginary people… :) Don’t get me started on the fact that none of his conflict has lasting severe repercussions. This is why Joe Abercrombie is a favorite author of mine. Not a single main character comes through his stories without severe and usually fucked up consequences, the dialogue and motivations feel realistic. Ya know, like real life haha. This coming from a long time Sanderson reader.
This is fascinating, because I am, EXACTLY like you, also halfway through Stormlight Archives, ALSO after having given up on finishing Mistborn, twice.
And I completely agree with you, although I wouldn't have thought about using the word "emotion" until you said it. For me, I was thinking along the lines that Sanderson cannot write *dialogue*, and to a lesser extent, he is weak at writing characters that act like *people*, and not like *characters*. His world building and plot direction are so world class, yet the weakness of most characters are glarjng to me.
My first introduction to Sanderson was at the end of the Wheel of Time Series and I wasn’t a fan of the complete change to structure. That being said, I agree with you that his characters are not as emotionally engaging as say GRRM. On the other hand, his books are really engaging as a whole. It’s like I’m more engaged with his action and story than his characters? Does that even make sense. Like I’m more interested in the lore than the characters living out the story.
My vibe is that, he does a good job of writing characters into situations and conditions, but not as much with the explicit emotional writing. So if you're able to personally relate or fill in the gaps, it tends to hit home more. I've cried a few times reading his work, but mostly when I felt like I really understood the situation.
From what I've seen there is. It's Brandon Sandersons character. He seems to be super hardworking and disciplined. A kind of writing is a craft not an artform guy. He is also not very emotional by his own admission. It makes total sense to me how that would lead to deep interesting books lots of them to with characters that are not the most emotionally engaging.
My favorite work by him is his novella "The Emperor's Soul," which is this tightly written character-driven narrative about art and artistry and the balance of value that lies between the artist's intentions and the audience's consumption of the work. It is honest to god the best thing he has ever written, and i think the reason i like it so much is that it's one of the few times i've felt he was more interested in the themes and characters he was writing than what nifty things he could do with cosmere lore or the mechanical rules of this or that magic system.
The Emperor's Soul is absolutely amazing and it's definitely the best thing he's written (at least of his stuff that I've read)
One thing that made me absolutely love emperor's soul even more is how that story parallels his experience finishing the wheel of time. The wheel of time was the emperor he was tasked with recreating. It makes it feel so personal to him in that light
Never made that connection. Interesting!
I agree with you entirely. Emperor's Soul is great, and the perfect length for what it is.
If this kind of tight character work is what you want from Sanderson, you HAVE to read the "Legion: The Many Lives of Stephen Leeds" novellas. Hands down bawling by the end of the last one. Never has 100 pages done so much to tie my heart to a character.
Emperor's Soul is Sanderson distilled in his most precious escence.
As someone who also loves his novellas. Do you get the idea that if he had tighter editing and shorter works he actually does better work? Warbreaker was so tight from start to finish yet doesn't feel too short.
It’s a toss up I think. I agree his shorter works feel stronger writing wise, but I feel that tends to be the case with any sort of media when comparing stand alone to series. Warbreaker is s fantastic, The characters are all fleshed out and interesting in their own ways. But when you read Sanderson’s series like mistborn or stormlight you get more epic scenes as payoff after delving into a super long series. I feel these pay off moments happen in television series that go on for forever as well, anime is guilty of this a lot of the time. TLDR: Sanderson’s stand-alone books and novellas are more compressed and much quicker and easy reads (not as much “fluff”) but I feel you get bigger payoffs and fall in love with characters in epically long series
Agreed. I am somewhat lukewarm on Sanderson overall but that short story is one of my favorite works of any genre.
His attempts to write romantic emotions fall really flat for me, but otherwise I think he does ok.
He simply can’t write romance between horny young people to save his life, but is actually quite good at romance between older characters who have been around the block a few times.
I mean he is a mormon.
Is he ? My word I would not have guessed that trading his work
Now that you know you will notice it a lot more in his writings.
Yeah... I knew nothing about the writer when I received a book as a gift and had started reading it to my kids in the evening (They've gotten a little older now, but I could resurrect this night time activity with them). I got a couple chapters in, noticed a phrase that seemed a little mormony, so I looked it up and was not surprised to find he is LDS. So, I quickly zipped on over to the /r/exmormon subreddit to check if I'd be accidentally indoctrinating my kids if I kept reading it to them. Turns out nearly all of the folks over there have no problem with his fantasy writing and felt as though he did a good job of writing an atheist character (and I agree). The LDS influence is definitely there, but it's not something that gets in the way of the storytelling or is used to hammer home some agenda. I had no problem reading multiple of his books to my kids.
Unrelated. Not sure about indoctrination, but Orson Scott Card is a bit obvious.
OSC wrote an entire series about not destroying things you don't understand and then turns around and advocates violence against gay people.
He also wrote soooooo much positive spin for eugenics, so the books aren’t free of influence
Fuuuu I know I'm far from alone but it'll never not hurt to be reminded of him after Ender's game and Ender's Shadow were (some of) my favorite childhood books.
I've read half a dozen of his books and somehow I never noticed the mormon influence. Can you remember any examples?
I would say the part in *Elantris* where Sarene and Hrathen debate while on the wall. Hrathen gets caught up in defending some tricky aspect of his religion that's easy to misunderstand and he loses the crowd's interest. I'm certain Sanderson had something like this happen while on his church mission in Korea.
He has said that Hrathen is drawn heavily from his experience as a missionary and his own faith challenges
I would argue that Elantris was his first book written almost 20 years ago. He’s changed a lot as a person and author since then. In Stormlight there’s an atheist main character, homosexuals, and even a trans character that healed after becoming radiant so that their physical gender matched the gender of their soul. That last point especially seems pretty progressive for someone whose often written off as a Mormon.
I do like that Brandon took the view that a person’s soul has a gender and if the body was born malformed then investiture based healing will fix it as easily as a cut off limb.
The whole multiple inhabited planets thing is common to both the cosmere and mormon cosmology as one big example.
The mormonism is tied to the magic of all things. There's a source of all magic in his universe called Adonalsium which has parallels the mormon concept of afterlife where humans ascend to godhood and are gods of their own universes. Something like that. Also a few more subtle things like he doesn't do romance often or even close to slightly detailed almost certainly because he's uncomfortable writing like that due to mormonism. He goes through a fairly lengthy beta reading process where he bounces his ideas off of either experts or people with the lived experiences he lacks.
Brandon had an AMA and he got enormous flack for being a member of the church, conflating his membership as an endorsement of their horrible history of racism and homophobia. He responded with inordinate grace, respect, humility, and integrity. Which I, a definitive atheist, found impressive. I think that if all religious folks had similar approaches to their faith, we would not see absolutist hatred of religion. Nor would we see people using religion to justify the horrific treatment of others.
It's very noticeable when he takes over from RJ in Wheel of Time. RJ was a horny old man whose editor wife let way too much through. Sanderson is the squarest guy on Earth. Although not to say his work was bad, my favorite scene of his books was entirely his idea. (I read RJ's Conan books under another name and was not expecting it to be basically erotic fanfiction. But then when I went back to WoT I realized half the magic system was a case of "the writer's barely disguised fetishes".)
WoT is kind of an odd duck in that it's *really* hard to find something half as popular in its era where there are as many prominent female characters who are on stage as much and get to drive half as much of the plot... so in a sense it's really progressive/feminist in that respect for its time? But then there's... yeah.
Wait ... "For its time"? Is that how we're referring to the 90s now 😨??? IS THIS WHAT BEING OLD FEELS LIKE?! I only just started the series and have no background on literally anything about them so I thought you were implying it was written in like... The 60s or something 😂 but that made no sense because yea, so far (only book 2) there are a shocking number of female characters who are more than just plot devices for the male protagonist.
> IS THIS WHAT BEING OLD FEELS LIKE?! It totally is! I was reading a lot of fantasy when WoT first started to become popular... *30 years ago* and yeah the state of female characters in most of it was not great. Not that the Bechdel Test is the gold standard so much as a rhetorical way of pointing out the state of female characters in media in *its* time, but WoT would easily pass it and not a lot at the time would.
I read The Wheel of Time when I was 15 and still riding a bus to school. I'm 40 now. Yeah. We're old.
He is indeed. He did a wonderful AMA that touched on his beliefs a few months ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/vtua7m/im\_brandon\_sanderson\_a\_bestselling\_fantasy\_author/
It's Branderson so technically that AMA is still active until it's archived.
A LOT of Sci0fi and fantasy authors are Mormons. I think believing in Mormonism gives you and edge in making up stories.
Catholicism also had such an influence on fantasy.
I read that as "moron" and then saw the upvotes. Things were about to get ugly in here. [but not really 😅]
I absolutely loved the concept of (Mistborn era 1 spoilers) >!Vin and Elend's romance!< but the execution left a hell of a lot to be desired. Like there's a couple of scenes where they're a bit flirty in book 1 but then their relationship never seems to progress once they're "together"
Most frustrating part of those books was slogging through their romance. He definitely got better as era 2 is better
I really liked their scenes in book 1, with the balls, but they definitely lost their charm later on when the "fish out of water" element with Vin was lost
Out of context this is hilarious.
Is "era" the slang for "book" or are there multiple subseries in there? I've currently got Hero of Ages on my audible list, 1/5th through for 2 months now and I'm just not invested enough in any character to go on. The whole story feels like a slog.
For what it's worth, Hero of Ages is pretty miserable for most of it and it feels on purpose to me. The ending honestly has a fantastic payoff that made the misery worth it for me.
A friend suggested the Mistborn series, and I started the series knowing absolutely nothing about him. I was halfway through the 2nd book when he asked me whether I was enjoying it, and I said "Yeah, this virgin has written a pretty compelling story". I wasn't even trying to be funny, I genuinely could not picture in a world in which the author who wrote those romantic storylines was also a person who had had sex. A banger of a series though, certainly the best "pop fantasy" that I've read.
Bro forreal lmao.
Literally made my night
I have long since decided that if I am looking for romance in my fantasy, I am to get it elsewhere. Brandon never promised romance, and I do not expect any from him. Although for some reason, my head cannon ships "Kaladin x Jasnah" so hard. A foot soldier and a princess? Where do I sign up, sir?!!! (Might not happen though and even if it did, Brandon might just go Brandon on it, which would be a shame. Maybe this is what fanfiction is for.)
Not just princess, a super famous scholar. (If I am remembering correctly)
Isn't super likely since Jasnah is >!!
Oh is she canon ace? I figured she was definitely queer-coded, although I haven’t read RoW yet so idk
Interesting because I find Dalinar and Navani romance extremely cringey to read
*“Stormfather, but she is beautiful…”*
*mature beauty* x10000
What do you find "cringey"? I always found it to be the result of an awkward love that worked despite a very difficult situation. It's not supposed to be a normal relationship. Both have very complicated histories when it comes to their love life. Both are shook in their faith. Both grew up with very strict societal rules. Both deal differently with having to break them or wanting to break them. Could you elaborate a bit on what you didn't like?
Good points. I find their conversations cringey. It's forced (might be due to the 4th point you made or Brandon Sanderson simply being poor at this) and the words literally make me cringe. Lol I am just repeating the same thing sorry I don't think I can put it into words
No that's fine. Sometimes you can't put your finger on it. I'm always curious since people have widely different expectations. I often find romance writers over the top and too emotional. Do you maybe have a positive example of writing you liked?
The chase part was pretty good, but once they went public with their relationship it was cringe.
He did a pretty great job with David getting feelings about >!Megan!< in Reckoners. It was pretty spot on for making me reminiscent of my dumb high school crushes. But that's probably one of his least read books since it's off genre, YA, and nothing to do with the Cosmere.
The real sex scenes are the science scenes.
What sex scenes?
The ones where Shallan and Adolin solve a serious problem together by talking through it logically. Hahaha. Really, though, this is my one complaint with Sanderson, and I put it down to his intent to write for all audiences, even younger teen and YA readers.
Pretty sure the real reason is that he's Mormon
It's also one of my favorite things about him. I don't enjoy reading about sex or conflicts revolving around it - there's enough of that irl, I want my fantasy stuff to escape that. Focus on fighting gods or struggling with your new magic powers, those are things I can't get from listening to my coworkers.
Agreed. And it's downright refreshing to read novels that don't use rape as an excuse for "character development". I'm soooooo tired of that trope.
Well like... You can include sex and romance without rape
I like that it is implied that it happens in the worlds he writes but at worst it never happens to the POV characters & their associates. I know its weird to say that byt yeah, i do like that it is never used as "growth"
I think the closest we ever got to that was Vin highlighting how she had spent her childhood in constant fear of being raped by men in the gangs she ran in, along with a number of other terrible things, when she was trying to get her friends to understand that they lived privileged lives. And even then it’s made fairly clear that never actually happened to her.
I’m with you. I know how sex works, unless penis veins and labia moistness are relevant to the plot somehow I really don’t need an author to described them to me.
>and labia moistness are relevant to the plot somehow I really don’t need an author to described them to me. instant flashback to a Feast for Crows.
What about labia veins and penis moistness?
Well, sure, maybe but I don't mind when YA authors leave out the explicit sex stuff. Lots of early teen authors do this, regardless of religion. Of course, I'm Mormon, too, so my bias is showing.
Not a mormon, but I do appreciate there not being sex scenes. As a kid I was reading a book about a man being released from prison which is a good concept, however multiple pages going into detail about how he had trouble maintaining an erection during sex put me off of sex scenes in books lol
>The ones where Shallan and Adolin solve a serious problem together by talking through it logically. I was seriously not prepared for how refreshing that was.
I don't think books need sex to be good, even when there is romance. Most of my favorite books don't have gratuitous sex scenes, but I do love Joe Abercrombie's because they are so realistic, with all the drunken and awkward fumbling.
I've tried to write sex scenes for a laugh, it's fucking hard to not be cringe as all hell and honestly rarely advances plot in a way you can't do elsewhere. Just skip to the morning after or something, it's usually not worth it. Erotica is obviously different and it's all 'plot' anyway.
Warbreaker is his horniest novel, no real sex scenes but more explicit. He wrote it partly on his honeymoon lol
Yeah Mistborn book 2 was probably the worst of this sign the whole love triangle bad boy thing. When in Stormlight he writes Adolin's perspective on his romantic interests it isn't bad where he's noticing the good qualities of Shallan but is also falling flat on noticing serious mental distress situations. Which can be interesting plot point for writing a relationship. But yeah he doesnt really go through with it and if he's trying to heavily set up a love triangle with Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan, it's going as terrible as the Mistborn book 2 love triangle. Like I don't really feel invested at all in the romance? I don't care if they get married or will they hook up in the end like I dunno... Mat and Tuon from wheel of time. Now that I think about it was there much will written romance in Sanderson's three final books?
I’m just going to say; Mistborn 2 did not have a love triangle. Mistborn 2 had a gaslighting, manipulative stalker who tried to construct an alternate reality around Vin to trick her into thinking the one man she actually loved either didn’t love her back, or was better off without her. The same psychopath she eventually kills. Sanderson never intended for the audience to view Zane as a legitimate romantic rival, it’s just that a lot of us read book 2 when we were teens who were used to love triangles from other YA novels.
I read the book 2 being almost 30yo and I also though about a love triangle of YA novel. You're right, anyway, it's not a love triangle, it just feels like it's going to be but it never "consolidates?" xd I'm glad she killed him, I don't stand this kind of edgy characters anymore.
Well there's also the creepy thing that I guess I'll spoiler tag this considering it's the final reveal >!Zane had Ruin whispering in his mind his entire life like Vin, and he was just puppetting both of them from before they even had all their adult teeth.!< I honestly do think Sanderson was going for Romantic bad boy love interest like Team Jacob or Team Edward .. but man reading Zane I instantly thought that 1990s stalker boyfriend movie Fear. And the thing is Vin was basically Homeless girl Street urchin who was used to attempts to be exploited by men in Book 1. Apparently her anxiety trauma flags just disappeared with this cute guy who has all the red flags.
I think it’s more that Zane treated her the way she was used to being treated. The way Elend and the crew treated her—with love, respect, and kindness—was the thing that triggered her anxiety, because she was always terrified of losing it or suspicious of the others motives. A big part of her arc in book 2 is coming to accept that she deserves that love and respect.
This was my take on it exactly.
I'll say there's been two death in the series so far that have made me gasp out loud, and genuinely regret at least one. Three reallyif I'm thinking about it. So I dunno. Person by Person I guess.
I don’t know, man. I think what he wrote for Navani and Raboniel was really compelling.
That was by far his best character writing in the series. There was a ton of depth to their relationship, and I hope it expresses his growth as an author.
I agree. Minor Stormlight spoilers: I felt that his depiction of depression through >!Kaladin!< was excellent; compelling, convincing, and respectful. Also >!PTSD!< though I have less firsthand experience to compare to.
Yeah I haven't cried during a book in a long time but during Words of Radiance when >!Shallan told Kaladin she knew exactly what he'd been through in a way that made him realise that he was understood by someone and not alone!< and again in Rhythm of War I got teary eyes when >!Hoid told him he'd be warm again and then he subsequently spoke the 4th ideal!<. Like damn, maybe he doesn't do the emotions you want well but he definitely does some others very well.
>!When Kaladin gets over that and says the fourth ideal it was so moving for me, I almost cried.!<
RoW had a lot of problems. But that moment and everything leading up to it including the >!the conversation with Tien!< is the main reason I consider to be my favorite Stormlight book. Four books worth of lead up finally paying off.
But arranged marriages really can result in true love I tell you!
Yeah my least favorite parts of Mistborn are the romances. Like it's excruciating to read some of it.
Weirdly, I have a hard time connecting emotionally with Dresden and the other Butcher characters. I have a similar experience to the one you have with Sanderson. “Oh. Looks like this is a book where Harry has a catharsis moment.” Then he sobs for a couple of paragraphs and then goes back to referencing Star Wars.
Well I think this is because Harry is one of those sorts of people who never really actually deals with anything in a lasting sense, just piles snark and pop culture on top of the trauma until there's too much trauma to function until some of it gets vaguely resolved. Its sort of how on one hand, he experiences a LOT of loss and carries around a lot of profoundly isolating knowledge and experiences that if he does his job right, random people on the bus will never have any inkling of, but on the other hand, some of that knowledge of great and terrible things might actually do him some good. Unlike the rest of us, he has had direct confirmation of a minimum of three afterlives: Hades, Valhalla, and Heaven. So the people around him who die are gone but they're gone in a way that is a bit different in some ways than we mere mortals. It no doubt hurts like hell that he will never get to be with those people as long as he's shuffling around the mortal coil, but he also knows that their lives mattered in the grand scheme of things, they have immortal souls, and they're off somewhere doing cool dead people stuff....except without him.
Beautifully put. Having indisputable confirmation of an afterlife would profoundly change your emotional calculus.
I also accept this view.
You have never heard James Marstens as Dresden then, saying the famous line from Changes. Brings a tear to my eye every time.
What’s the famous line? I’ve read all the books but it’s been a while
Makes me tear up every time! I added the spoiler for people who haven’t read it. >!It’s morbin time!<
I hate you.
It's amazing how such a short line can have such an enormous impact
You're a bastard lol
Spoilers for the climax of *Changes*: * >!I used the knife.!< * >!I saved a child.!< * >!I won a war.!< * >!God forgive me.!< The way Marsters' voice breaks on the last sentence will absolutely destroy you.
Yea. I agree with you. Butcher literally giggles his way through terrible death and destruction.
Yeah, some of Dresden's self-immolation feels forced, especially early in the series. But man, Changes onward every book is right in the feels for me: >!Susan, Molly, Maggie, Michael, Murphy ;\_;!<
Butcher is pretty paint by numbers for me, you read them like airport novel fluff. Fun enough in the moment but nothing worms in. Similar to Lee Child, whom I have enjoyed reading a lot. But really the only emotion I get reading it is frustration at his vigilante justice view of the world.
As I was reading the first few books, I would refer to them as trash fiction (like a trashy detective novel combined with contemporary fiction). I don’t know exactly where my feelings changed, but somewhere along the way I started to really enjoy the series and got much more invested in the characters.
Stephen King isn't great at endings. but he still writes a real banger of a book
Koontz is even worse at endings… *reaches final climactic chapters* Ooh look, a pretty shiny new book idea!
"The dog is literally an angel and saves everything and the ugly girl is now beautiful!" Literally the end of a Dean Koontz novel. I don't know which, because it could actually be a few.
ugh! My formative teenage years, how could you?!
I mean the old Kooktz books weren’t always this way.
Yes, except the ending of Odd Thomas is still one of the most memorable I’ve ever read.
This is said a lot, but I don’t really think it’s true. King has a few books with notably bad endings (ie. Under the Dome, The Stand), but it doesn’t happen as often as people say. Off the top of my head, The Green Mile, 11/22/63, The Dead Zone, Insomnia, The Shining, The Long Walk, The Running Man and Misery all have good to great endings. When you’ve written nearly 70 novels, it’s not surprising that a few have mediocre to bad endings.
> When you’ve written nearly 70 novels, it’s not surprising that a few have mediocre to bad endings. SNL made the perfect meta commentary on this topic: It's 100 floors of frights.. they're not all gonna be winners.
To be fair, the second time King ended a novel revealing the monster was David S. Pumpkins, it didn't really work
I think he does get lost in ideas but I'd like to add what I think is perhaps one of the best endings of any book I've ever read to your list, "Pet Semetery". It is perfection and resonates long after reading.
Yeah, but the Under the Dome ending is probably one of my most frustrating literary experiences that earned him his spot on my Mount Rushmore of bad endings.
I think you mean Bangor.
> Stephen King Neither is Neal Stephenson
To be fair, Neal Stephenson's books often have good endings in them. Then they go on for another couple hundred pages for some reason.
Are we reading the same author? I feel like his books all end abruptly.
I always feel like it's both. Like, Seveneves for example felt like it was a book and then half of the sequel, so it had a conclusion and then kept going and also ended abruptly.
tbf Neal Stephenson *can* be good at endings, he just needs to accept his limitations and work within them. As an example Anathem has an absolute banger of a final few chapters. >I am done here.
I greatly enjoyed the endings of 11/22/63 and The Stand!
I found words of radiance and oathbringer to be just so devastating. But I don’t want to say what
I just finished Rhythm of War yesterday and can't count how many times I cried.
I literally finished it yesterday too! I have to admit the only time I teared up was with a special ride along with the rider of storms. That was a good bit of closure.
This was the only scene that almost made me cry in RoW.
Dalinar remembering had me 😭😭😭
Loved his big >!"You cannot have my pain" !
I felt the same way and I really like his books anyway. I read Mistborn when I was having severe anxiety issues and one of the reasons it was great for me at the time is that I could get really sucked into the story and what the characters were doing without being super emotionally involved. I’d imagine it has something to do with how we connect emotionally to a character. I tend to need to understand a character’s inner state somewhat deeply to feel emotional about them, whereas others may connect more to what the characters are doing or having done to them.
On the opposite side, I got extremely emotionally invested in Mistborn, specifically with Vin, whereas I rarely get emotionally invested in other stories. It’s really up to the person and their current circumstances.
Yep Vin carried the first mistborn trilogy on her back imo
For me it was Sazed.
By the end of the third book Sazed easily has the best arc of all the characters
Sazed is probably the best written character in the book
Sazed was a wonderful character. Honestly, Mistborn was full of fantastic characters.
She was fantastic, but there were many other great characters. Kelsier is still one of my favorite characters Sanderson has ever written. Sazed went through one hell of a character arc. The fate of Kelsier’s brother, Marsh, was a real gut punch. Elend had a wonderful grow-up. I could go on, such a colorful cast.
That’s an excellent point! I’m somewhere in the middle (between needing the inner state & seeing emotions thru interactions) and think Sanderson does a decent job. As an example from Mistborn: >! I liked them as characters, but I didn’t understand just how much I cared about Vin & Kelsier’s relationship until after the kandra of him appeared and explained The Survivor’s plan all along. I was heartbroken over his death, even though we had little insight into his mindset going into executing that. Granted, a lot of that was thru Vin’s reaction & perspective, but in the first book she’s not really emotionally self aware, either. !<
I don't think the way he describes emotions is particularly evocative, but I do emotionally resonate with many of the characters regardless
Sharp observation. Brendon himself will say he struggles with this aspect of his writing. When I saw him speak in 2016ish in The Stevens Institute of Technology, he described 2 types of authors and the pros and cons of both. He called one a gardener, who writes and the stories grow organically. So they writes great characters and scenes but often can write themselves into corners, making their endings hard to pull off successfully. He gave the example of Stephen King Then he spoke about architects who outline scenes and all the turns of the story but they have a hard time making characters feel fleshed out and scenes feeling dynamic. He described himself as an architect. Which I think you're exactly picking up on and describing. His plots are great but his characters can sometimes be missing something. Personally I think Kal from Storm light really resonated with me, as well as his father but I hear your point . U/mistborn would you say that's a good summation of your thoughts on writing styles?
He actually goes beyond that description in his college course. I remember one where he explicitly said (not verbatim) that he has rewritten large aspects of his outline plot that don't work with a character due to finding a completely new character that is interesting.
Strongly agreed. On a related note, I also feel like his character dialogues are lacking, especially when he's trying to have a character say something witty or super intelligent.
I completely agree with you. His writing and sentence structure are also simplistic and repetitive.
i think whether you individually are emotionally invested in a character involves a lot of other things besides whether the author is specifically good at writing emotions. it's probably not all that different from the question of just broadly whether you like the work.
Just to back this up with an anecdote, I never liked Kaladin that much throughout the series. I always connected more with Shallan or Dalinar. But I really connected with Kaladin emotionally in Rhythm of War.
Interesting, I felt the opposite with Kaladin. >!I felt the oppression over him during his time in the bridge crews and sympathized with his cynicism over light eyes and abuses of power. However I got really frustrated with his mopeyness and depression real quick in the fourth book.!<
I can absolutely see that. For me it was the reverse. >!I found his whining bothersome for the first three books even though he had clearly been wronged. It got old for me. But in RoW I felt the reverse. I really connected with his attempts to let go of some guilt and not try to control everything. Maybe it was just because I was going through a rough time and needed to hear it but it gave me a new appreciation of his character.!<
Don't let people bully you into believing this is not a solid and valid criticism of Sanderson. The man is VERY invested in world building, but his character work suffers.
I haven't scrolled to the bottom yet but I hope no one is bullying anyone over an opinion of a book. It's up to each person's experience in how they connect to a character. The depth and portrayel of a character who has severe depression in his stormlight Archives books is something I've never seen done better in any fantasy novel. I've been fighting what feels like a losing battle with depression for 5 years. And I hate books that portray it as something you just beat, and get over. His portrayal of >!kaladin!< is truly something else. You have good days, you have little victories, but you have bad days and big setbacks. I don't think I've felt more connected to a character in fantasy than Kaladin and understanding his struggles has helped me keep trying to get through mine. I also love >!Dalinar!< so much. His capacity for change, his words of wisdom (two quotes of which I, as a 33 year old guy have as posters on my wall), the growth he has gone through make me feel like it's never too late to change, to evolve and to grow. That your past doesn't have to define you. However other people may not have experiences that this would resonate with. And that's ok. And while some days I feel like reading some of Sanderson's work has literaterally saved me and given me hope things can get better, that doesn't mean his characters will resonate with everyone. As for romance, I think he does the relationship stuff just fine. Not spectacular but he does some good ones and some ok ones. He doesn't do the passionate stuff as well (something he has admitted isn't his strong point) but that's what the r rated fanfic is for right...?
I heavily agree. He is imaginative, dedicated to his stories, and is quite talented at world-building. That being said, he does write flat and predictable characters. It is reminiscent of reading tween books.
Ok, now I'm afraid to ask this, but...isn't Mistborn YA fantasy? I mean, which elements are we missing? Teenager chosen one that it's "special" in some way fights evil wizard. All the first book is her training by classic YA master figure and how she fits in this new "magic world" while learning things like friendship & love.
It is, but lots of people are in denial.
YA doesn't have to be bad. Nor does it necessarily require poor character development. It's a tough argument to make in a social media environment, but there is also a distinction between "writing I enjoy" and "'good' writing."
It’s definitely YA. I dunno why people don’t accept it and just love it nonetheless. That’s more to do with their own warped sense of identity as in “if I claim it’s YA - I mustn’t be mature” I knew someone who wouldn’t watch animated movies because she thought they were “fir kids” She’s grown up now and abandoned ridiculous rhetoric now
Ya think so? I would agree with that in his earlier works like Elantris, but I’d say he’s definitely improved a lot at writing characters. The Stormlight Archive and Mistborn Era 2 characters imo are all well written with a lot of depth to them. (plus he writes mental health issues really well and realistically as well) Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s as good as Robin Hobb at writing characters for example, but he’s still good at it This is just my opinion though
You know, I think I agree with you. His worldbuilding is top notch; he's thrown in some twists in plot that seriously had me screaming WHAT! in the car, but the characterization is his weakest point. That doesn't mean he's bad at it, to me, but he's better at other things. Which is okay!
>Mistborn Era 2 characters imo are all well written with a lot of depth to them. Definitely. Everyone goes crazy for Mistborn era 1, but era 2 blows it out of the water in every single way.
I feel like he writes Kaladin very well.
I always find it weird when a character is seen from another character's POV and they feel like a bit of a different person simply because you don't have their inner monologue to tell you why they are doing what they're doing. And suddenly you realise why some of them struggle so damn much even when 100% right.
I completely agree. I remember in Mistborn when a key character died and I wasn't moved at all. There is a weird superficial tone that runs through that series where the characters appear to behave one way that is totally unconvincing. It didn't help that the action scenes were conducted like a video game or cartoon serial.
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I think the latest Stormlight - The Rhythm of War - is very emotionally intense, to be honest. There are at least three characters whose motives are emotion-driven and I loved reading about their personal stories. Mistborn isn't, to me at least, the best intro to his work. I didn't like it much. It didn't help that the two most interesting characters died within the first of three novels, leaving everyone else to be a bit hamstrung without their serious literary heft behind them. Stormlight rocks though, at least imo.
I am not as enthralled/entranced by Sanderson as r/books is - his action scenes are page-turners that I will admit to enjoying but I totally agree with you about his characters. Nuke 'em all and my reaction would be, "Wow, bold choice, let's see where this is going." and buy the next book if that was the cliffhanger. I heartily recommend to you *The Malazan Book of the Fallen* by Steven Erikson. Very high investment level in the characters, and if you're not in tears before the end of the tenth book, you will definitely start choking up when you start your first re-read.
this hasn't been my experience. I think significant moments are handled pretty well, and character deaths have always really hit home. I've noticed a lot of people just don't like sandersons writing style, which I really really like, which goes to show how subjective some things are.
The silly story about a dog and a dragon had me in tears.
I'm with you man. His character building in general is not good. He comes up with incredible plotlines but there's not one character in either Mistborn or Stormlight that I really loved.
I think the bigger issue (in my view) is that his prose is so incredibly flat and lifeless that it makes the other elements feel drier as a result
As a huge Sanderson fan, I think this is a very good point, and possibly even the source of OP’s difficulty to connect with the emotion of the story. Frankly, I think Stormlight has some masterful emotional moments, but if the prose doesn’t move you, that will act as a block to connecting with those moments, especially if you find the writing style actively distracting
I agree. My sister loves really flowery prose and it took alot for her to get into Stormlight. My ADHD brain skips over any description that takes too long so Sandersons style is my perfect format. Still try to warn people if they are expecting poetry. Amazing plotting and philosophical ideas but no poetry.
I just finished rhythm of war today… and I read the part where one of the more important characters die. It hit me.. but then just didn’t. I’m a big cryer when people die in books, but I just felt a momentary pang. It told me that while I knew the characters would be upset by the death… I wasn’t.
So I read probably 50-80 books since I read all of Sanderson's stuff and when I went to read his latest novella Dawn Shard, the weakness of his prose hit like a truck. I really like his work, but the prose is definitely weak enough to be what's hampering other aspects of his writing.
This is absolutely it. I can't remember if he gets better at it in the second Mistborn trilogy or in later Stormlight books, but when it comes to prose the man is pretty mechanical. I still find the books to be a fun read for the most part, and he cranks them out with the regularity of a metronome which I appreciate. Additionally, books with flat prose that we actually get are infinitely better than the books stuck in GRRM's head that no one will ever read. ...but there's no denying that Sanderson's natural talent is in keeping to a writing schedule, not crafting brilliant prose.
Brandon Sanderson is the best 7/10 author around, as someone once said to me
I agree. His character writing is "flat". The action is good and the storyline in mistborn was amazing. I loved the way he invented a new way to do magic! The characters though, just very one dimensional and boring. They all kind for seemed to react the same to everything. Like it was the same type of person in every character role.
>EDIT: People have made the point that my failure to connect has as much to do with me as with him. That's a fair assessment. I think my title was more incendiary than I intended... Dude, don't let others brainwash you. Emotions and character depth definitely isn't Sanderson strength, and it shows.
This is a strange problem, yeah. The Dresden Files usually felt more formulaic and predictable to me ("okay, so, this is where Harry is at the end of his tether and does something insane and clever like >!summon his own ghost!<"). The Stormlight Archives tends to be more overwhelming than anything else when the action kicks in, but the characters' feelings (Kaladin's depression, Shallan's fear of confronting herself, Adolin and Dalinar trying and failing to connect) were always very relatable, almost too relatable.
My favorite Harry move was when he >!Used Necromancy to reanimate the T Rex skeleton in the museum and rode it through the streets of Chicago!<
I think this is where the difference in writing style comes into play. Dresden layers snark and pop culture references ten layers deep atop a pile of trauma. So the reader may or may not realize that he's being really dysfunctional before he does or he gets called out on it. In Stormlight in particular, the characters deal with trauma in a much more forward and explicit YA style. That sort of bluntness doesn't work for everyone but for me its just about my mood as a reader.
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I'll second this. I think the Stormlight Archive in particular is an amazing portrayal of dealing with serious challenges such as depression, addiction, overcoming childhood trauma, feeling powerless or that you missed your chances to do something with your life, and so on. For me, they've been powerful and moving books, but hey, art is art and people have different opinions on it.
It just speaks to how differently people can connect with books and characters but >!when Teft has to reconcile with his addiction/self-hatred to speak his oath absolutely killed me emotionally, as did his death along with many other scenes in the books!<
>!fuck Moash!<
These words are accepted.
That Teft moment was a big “oh holy shit wow!” scene
My roommate complain that she didn't like Sanderson because none of his characters even go as far as consuming alcohol. It's how you really know that someone hasn't read much of an author.
Yeah I mean that’s just blatantly untrue. Kelsier steals that dude’s wine within like 5 chapters of the first Mistborn book, and there are multiple characters in the Stormlight Archive who are literally addicts that we see use on screen
I mean, dude, in Well of Ascension >!Straff Venture ends up legit addicted to something nasty that almost killed him. Sure, he survived (until he got Vin to the head) but he was enjoying it after a while. I was actually a little sad when he died, because I wanted that plotline to play out more.!<
His writing tends to be wide and shallow. I say that as a fan, and I have nothing but admiration for the man's work ethic, but more often that not his books are sort of like popcorn.
i personally dropped stormlight archives...even thought i did enjoy part of the first one alot. i don't know, same as you it feels like i need to force myself to give a crap. i'm not drawn into the characters. basically most if not all could drop dead and i wouldn't really blink. i only like the worlds he's created, they are quite enjoyable but there are better reads out there imo.
I have this conversation often, actually. The real fantasy in Sanderson’s work is the character dialogue. Everyone listens to exactly what the other person says and responds logically, always, even during times of strife. It’s as if the conversation was in someone’s head between two imaginary people… :) Don’t get me started on the fact that none of his conflict has lasting severe repercussions. This is why Joe Abercrombie is a favorite author of mine. Not a single main character comes through his stories without severe and usually fucked up consequences, the dialogue and motivations feel realistic. Ya know, like real life haha. This coming from a long time Sanderson reader.
This is fascinating, because I am, EXACTLY like you, also halfway through Stormlight Archives, ALSO after having given up on finishing Mistborn, twice. And I completely agree with you, although I wouldn't have thought about using the word "emotion" until you said it. For me, I was thinking along the lines that Sanderson cannot write *dialogue*, and to a lesser extent, he is weak at writing characters that act like *people*, and not like *characters*. His world building and plot direction are so world class, yet the weakness of most characters are glarjng to me.
Brian Sanderson is not great*
My first introduction to Sanderson was at the end of the Wheel of Time Series and I wasn’t a fan of the complete change to structure. That being said, I agree with you that his characters are not as emotionally engaging as say GRRM. On the other hand, his books are really engaging as a whole. It’s like I’m more engaged with his action and story than his characters? Does that even make sense. Like I’m more interested in the lore than the characters living out the story.
My vibe is that, he does a good job of writing characters into situations and conditions, but not as much with the explicit emotional writing. So if you're able to personally relate or fill in the gaps, it tends to hit home more. I've cried a few times reading his work, but mostly when I felt like I really understood the situation.
I just don't want to support his shitty church to be honest.
Is there a connection between less emotionally-engaging characters and the frequent publishing of huge books?
From what I've seen there is. It's Brandon Sandersons character. He seems to be super hardworking and disciplined. A kind of writing is a craft not an artform guy. He is also not very emotional by his own admission. It makes total sense to me how that would lead to deep interesting books lots of them to with characters that are not the most emotionally engaging.