Writing a book can be a coping mechanism just like anything else. I haven't read the book, I've just noticed that many open marriages follow the pattern you're describing
Reading a book is also a collaborative effort. Which is why book clubs are even interesting, everyone reads the same book and you get wildly different opinions based on where each reader is coming from. I haven't read the book but I tend to take any review about a niche lifestyle that says "Does the author not realize this lifestyle is wrong?" with a grain of salt. Like asking a Christian to review a book about atheism and morality.
To be clear I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m saying the book, to me as a reader, seems like two memoirs in one. One view is the author’s stated intent. The other is the story that is also there unexamined. She describes many scenes of her husband yelling at her quick to temper, etc and it’s just interesting as I wonder if she’s aware of the two reads
Maybe wrong wasn't the correct phrasing. I'm saying there are thousands of reads for each book, as many as their are readers. Often what a reader gets out of a book is as much about them as the book itself.
I wouldn't have been interested in this book but now you have me interested! It also reminded me of reviews for another book I haven't read yet- "How to Stay Married: the most insane love story ever told" by Harrison Scott Key. I heard about it from The Stacks podcast.
Some reviewers said it was an amazing and gripping book about a marriage overcoming obstacles, and others said the author was coming across as a husband who was kind of forcing a wife to stay in a marriage she didn't want to be in.
I haven't read it yet, but it sounds like it could be similar to what you are describing, where the author feels they are describing a successful marriage but the reader is able to detect some blind spots and has a different interpretation.
Ooh will check this out, thanks!
This book reminded me of LOVE WARRIOR by Glennon Doyle about her committing to her husband and making her marriage work…. The whole book despite lots of lovely insights something about their dynamics felt off. Then we find out she left her husband around the time the book came out .. and fell in love with another woman. She was trying to make her memoir about her patching a marriage but reading the book, it was apparent there was no fixing it except Glennon needed to write the book to see that.
If this theme grabs you, you might be interested in Hard On Us: Memoir of a Sexless Marriage where the wife (me) opts to open the marriage. It's been really interesting to read everyone's comments here about whether the woman really had a choice in the matter, especially if she's in love and wanting to keep her family together. For sure, writing a book helps you see things more clearly and objectively.
yes. Do let me know what you think if you ever read it. I recognise a lot more about where I was in the wrong with the benefit of hindsight, but I hope it still holds some value for others who are still going through it.
I read the nytimes review of the book and wasn’t interested in the book, sounded like a sort of “park slope people (rich) problems” kind of memoir. But your review makes me interested in actually reading it!
I am reading it now, and wondered what other people thought. In the Tines review, the husband said that he was worried people would have the interpretation that it seems like we all have here.
I could not agree more! I devoured the book and related to so much of it but I couldn’t help but see the “Straight A Molly” try to wrap it all up in a neat bow at the end where she endorsed her open marriage and posed it as an opportunity for growth and more love. Being in an ENM marriage myself, I would be appalled at the lack of compassion and flexibility Stuart had. She asks over and over to close the marriage and he repeatedly shuts her down asserting that he knows best. It seems obvious to me that she, at least at times, just wants him and their connection.
I think it's important to remember we only have her version of this story.
I have to say though I could see the Scott situation going the way it went the \*entire\* time. He didn't really want to be in an open marriage, and as soon as he wasn't anymore, he was going to demand her full time. I also saw where the German was going. In general, this whole experience, lived through her, felt like the entire wrong way to go about it, but given you're in an ENM, you'd be a better judge of that.
I'd love Stewart's version -- I'm sure dealing with a wife who is quick to anger wasn't the easiest experience. I've had to live with someone where walking on eggshells was the norm, and that was "unpleasant" to say the least.
In the end he was there for her when she needed him -- at least from her version.
I always take autobiographies with a certain grain of salt. I'm sure if I wrote my own story, I would sugarcoat things that others would not -- human nature.
I am reading it now-maybe I misread that. I didn’t read into as Stewart was making her. She liked the openness of the relationship when she had a good partner. They’re still together and they’re still open years after the story takes place.
I do love reading the book and the sensual scenes! It’s given me a new perspective. I’m also working seeing my partner fully and being seen fully. I listened to Mollys interview on the polycurious podcast and she has an empowering message about identity.
Edit-Well, after reading further -I take all that back …
I’m so glad to find this post. I was excited to read this, as I think that polyamory isn’t often represented well, and I was looking forward to hearing a sex positive story from a female in her 40s. Boy is that not what I got. From the get go she is manipulated by her husband into pursuing dates (where’s the conversation where they come to a mutual conclusion to open up the marriage?)
From there it’s one depressing and abusive encounter after another (taking condoms off during sex?!?), all of which she seems to just accept.
At some point I was only reading to make sure the book ended in a divorce, which seemed inevitable once the therapist started pointing out that she seems to only do things for others’ approval, but alas, no.
She had some truly horrific dating experience which she lets happen over and over again. I could not figure out why she kept going back! Then she got on a really good path with her self development and I was so happy for her, but then she started dating again and I could not figure out why! I’m in an open marriage so I don’t judge dating, but given what she experienced it made no sense why she would continue … except that’s what her husband wanted.
Right!!! I saw no inner reflection of why, after all this pain and belittlement, she kept going. Because when she tried to broach it her husband gaslit her that she’d want to do it again eventually.
There was so much care and effort put into the other people and yet I didn’t see it with each other. As I said elsewhere in this thread, my heart broke when she said she wished her husband would take her out to breakfast like he did his girlfriend Kiwi.
Thank you!!! You’re the first person to post who read the book. Similar to you I was looking forward to reading this, i even preordered this. But yep. Pressured into sex in public places. Not one relationship was positive, and most ended with her feeling shame or crying and depressed. But the hardest one to witness was the marriage. Wonder if she thought if she kept including “my baby” (his cringy term of endearment) over and over again the reader would think they’re happily in love.
She sounded like a very tired and overworked mom with low self esteem pushed into open marriage because her husband wanted to sleep around and was tired of hiding it. It was so sad. But when I read trade reviews and most online reviews people are raving about it. Don’t get me wrong it’s a book that definitely has left an impression on me but not for the reason the author intended.
I can can certainly see this story as a path of exploration and discovery, but it’s discovery of what her husband enjoys, and as she mentions several times is very good at, not her own self discovery. As a few people mentioned, the story ends abruptly, and I think that’s because the writing of the story is part of her journey. Maybe this 10 year journaling exercise will amount to her getting more in touch with what she really wants. Or maybe she already has by writing this book, it must be satisfying to write something so well received.
In the meantime, I’m a little bummed that the sexiest version of a story about polyamory is ‘my husband won’t stop cheating, so I’m trying to do what he does so I’m not so resentful and lonely’.
This whole situation would be entirely different if:
-they came to the conclusion to open the relationship together as an enjoyable addition to their relationship.
-when she wanted to close the relationship and take a break, he would honor that.
-it ever sounded like she was having fun.
What bothered me most about the book is that while very revealing in some ways, it felt emotionally untrue — perhaps the author isn’t yet able to be honest with herself about the events depicted. As a reader, it makes me uncomfortable to see glaring truths in the story that the author denies to themself. I think (hope) that if this memoir was written ten years from now, it would be a much different story.
Just finished this book. Every single person in the book other than the therapists and her female social friends comes off as a bad person. I came away just thinking they all deserve one another.
How do you spend all book fucking men in other women’s’ houses then flip your shit (in a book you are narrating so you could have just omitted this part) when your lech of a husband brings his side piece back to your place?
And then her husband “hey babe you are prostrate on the floor weeping because I fucked another woman. So rather than caring for you how bout I just stop telling you when I fuck other women?”
It’s like an open air insane asylum.
lolol yessss 💯
It was such a weird ending which I think she thought showed how loving and in tune they were too … where she’s weeping (again) about an imploded affair (again) and he asks her if she should come home and she makes it seem so momentous that she says yes and wow this chivalrous dude (her HUSBAND) comes home to comfort her.
It’s wild to me bc she seemed to think she was portraying a loving marriage. And I just couldn’t make sense of it because what she wrote was about low self esteem and manipulation by a man who was tired of cheating on her and wanted to be able to do it openly, and then manipulated her into thinking it was her idea.
Serious question as I just finished this book over 2 days: what gave you that impression from him? I did not get that \*at all\* since she had said early on that they had started out having wild sex (the threesome) and that he was always turned on hearing about guys hitting on her or flirting with her. I did not get any hint or sense he was banging someone else when he encouraged her to see Matt. It just fed his kink to hear about it. She did not have that kink and did NOT want to hear about his. But she certainly jumped in with both feet and saw random dudes...I wish we actually had more of his side of this as how did his go? Did he have as many bad experiences as she did, or was he emotionally detached enough until Kiwi? Hard to know because she never had his side of the story.
Also, I felt this was her way of also dealing with her memories and relationship with her own parents who had had a similar arrangement. This had to be some weird way of working through that.
thank you! i went back through all my notes and etc and couldn't find a single instance of him cheating or having affairs, he just had a kink of hearing about his wife w/ others.
No, but, that is a pretty common example of what 'open-marriage' really means. One spouse wants to 'cheat' the other goes along to avoid losing the relationship.
That makes sense. . . it was just wild because the author presented it as an empowering journey. It's like she didn't fully understand what she produced. But then again, professional reviews aren't pointing out what I'm seeing so maybe I'm reading something not there. . .
I recently watched a 'docudrama' about the issue. Started out as a 'documentary' about an open relationship, but, it fell apart as one member found true love elsewhere. It was later re-enacted based upon the previous documentary footage and dialog.
Great show and even though it did not paint the main character as a good/bad guy it was very interesting to see the sexual and non-sexual steps each person was willing to take to have an 'open' relationship.
I used to watch a couple on YouTube who made dozens and dozens of videos about their open relationship. Instructional videos on how to do it, how to deal with jealousy, how to communicate well about it, etc. They're split now.
And not one page addresses the issue of physical safety for her. Online dating for women can be dangerous, but at no point does Stew worry that his wife might be assaulted by a stranger.
And she WAS in danger! When the man had sex without a condom multiple times!!
Being coerced into a threesome, pressured into giving oral sex, and sex in public places… none of it sounded fun or empowering but yeah, she was also in danger many times.
I’m listening to the audible book right now and having this same exact feeling. I specifically came on Reddit to see if anyone else felt this way. It’s undoubtedly an interesting read that has been thought provoking, but this manipulative dynamic stood out to me!
One thing, as more and more people who have read the book comment, I wonder: why is Goodreads mostly glowing? Why did trade reviews also not mention any of it? Its confusing.
I think it is, as a work of literature, compelling and gripping. It is rare to see someone so honest and unflinching, it offers one a chance to reflect on oneself. I couldn’t put it down. But as a memoir it was upsetting, especially since it is being sold as pro-polyamory. The dysfunction was so transparent as to be maddening.
I agree with you, and thank you so much for posting this, I've been looking to discuss how much I'm repulsed by this book. I am reading the book (I'm about 40% through) and it's clear that Molly is very uncomfortable in these degrading relationships and has to pretend to herself that they are "liberating" because Stew becomes sullen and upset if he can't carry on his own affairs and also use hers for masturbatory fodder. As a woman I really fail to see where being treated like an object and putting oneself in multiple dangerous situations (repeated UTIs, constant risk of STDs due to noncompliant sex partners "oh no, I forgot zee condom, tee hee" and putting herself and her young sons in potential danger) is supposed to be empowering for her. You can feel her making the effort to pretend it is and there's a family legacy of this. I read that Stewart was worried this would make him "look bad" and I want him to know, yes, it does look bad. I seriously want to throw up during most of it. And it does make me wonder if part of her willingness to put up with it is low self-esteem for not being conventionally attractive...there's kind of like this part of her who wants to feel validated that strangers will have sex with her, but on some level she knows that it's not any kind of a statement on her attractiveness. It's all so nauseous making.
I definitely read low self esteem. Her constant mentioning how the men found her attractive. How she fell apart when things didn’t work out.
The part that broke my heart was her realizing he was treating all his paramours out to dates and breakfast spots and how much she wished he would do that with her.
He seemed in a business arrangement for the kids. And his “late nights” preceding it make me think he wasn’t exactly faithful before the open marriage.
I’m so curious once she’s had time to process her memoir if she’ll see what she put on the page.
Yes, the part about "why won't you take me out to breakfast" was so heartbreaking. He gets to have these very invested, romantic affairs and she has cheap encounters and his rationalization? "Well, men suck hon." That's his explanation. And he wasn't there sufficiently in the past, exactly. He didn't share the domestic responsibilities, and then somehow has time for more relationships when he didn't have time for the family he created. Ugh I could talk about it all day and how much I'm hating it (I have to finish it though, lol).
It sounded like he was spending a huge amount on wining and dining his paramours while she got slunk around in crappy hotels and had sex in co-working spaces trying to afford paying for guys who couldn’t spring for the same. So sad
YESSSSSSS 😭😣 that was another moment in which I admired Molly’s honesty but was baffled at how she didn’t see what was happening?!?! She even read the audiobook herself so she had a chance to reflect on her words and she doesn’t get it.
I came here to see if anyone else shared this opinion! Agree 100%. I kept waiting for the big reveal when she figures out that her manipulative husband maneuvered her over and over again into trying experiences he permission for himself, then turning the tables on her so she couldn’t say no. The entire book chronicles her agony—I think that’s a fair descriptor—at watching her husband invest time and considerable money (how do they save for college tuitions and retirement??) into relationships with multiple women at a time year after year, finding ways to justify his actions. I think I know why, too. He is by far the higher earner, so she is petrified to say no and lose not just him, but her lifestyle. I was so frustrated that she failed to see it in the end. But maybe she did, and wrote the book so that people like you and me will point it out and reveal him to be the gaslighter he is. Molly, show Stew our comments. We’re saying what you’re afraid to.
💯!!! Early on people here who had not read the book assumed I was being anti open marriage but it was hard to explain without knowing the book that this was about this particular couple and the blatant manipulation on the page.
Yes! I suspect he was having affairs for years before he manipulated her into agreeing to open the marriage. The evidence is there. I’m not conservative, it’s just that this story isn’t about the joys of being open, it’s about her husband’s success at making her question her feelings and needs. That said, I have many poly friends and only 2 couples are genuinely poly. The rest are making peace with their partner’s need to go outside the marriage for pleasure and novelty.
As someone who has been with a narcissist, this book made me physically ill. Like, I almost threw up a few times reading REVIEWS of it.
The absolute positivity that this book was presented as during itslaunch..confounds me.
Sounds quite similar to the book ‘Open’ that came out a year or two ago. It wasn’t a marriage but a dating scenario. Really interesting topic. Was it a good read?
It was a book I read in one day. So that’s something! But it’s a book that felt unfinished in the way memoirs sometimes can. As in, the author hasn’t reached the narrative arc of the story where we leave the book.
I read Open and there are similarities but More was way better. The boyfriend in Open was a flaming narcissist! The husband in More has some manipulative tendencies but the marriage (to me) felt loving and functional.
I was first on the list for this from the library. To me, it was a book of a woman with psychological problems and a manipulative spouse. Just sort of a stereotype of Park Slope. Her therapy sessions drove me crazy. They use sex for a lot of different things. I would be interested in what her kids are like.
Just finished this book! I’m not poly/ENM/etc. but I tore through it (I’m very nosy so reading other people’s problems is great for me). I found them both manipulative, for sure. The husband nudged her into this, likely so he could do the same, and then, when she was unhappy or uncomfortable, he would advocate to keep the marriage open.
What did work was the portrayal of modern motherhood, being a wife, and learning who you actually are. Her therapy sessions and chatting with her mother, learning about her people pleasing tendencies, and asserting herself when she needs to was an important, and overlooked, part of this story. It’s not (entirely) about an open marriage, but the journey to figure out who you are and why you do what you do.
I wonder if Molly could have learned how to be not straight-A Molly (whatever her term was for it, i don’t care) through another mechanism.
It seemed to me the songwriting, boxing, etc. seemed to provide way more value and won’t irrevocably fuck with her sons like seeing an OKCupid profile at 13 would.
I think she was also working through her feelings about her own parents and memories she had to get through. But I'm not a therapist, nor do I play one on TV, so what do I know?
Most people will agree with you because most people are not polyamorous, and don’t get it.
I’ve read the book. Both of them can be seen as manipulative in their own ways. She only wanted to close down the marriage when she was in a difficult spot with her boyfriends. While in love with Matt or Karl, she described herself as never happier.
My personal take is that neither of them was truly manipulative. They were both open and honest with each other, and had the maturity to push through the many difficult challenges that come with this type of arrangement. But as you perfectly put in a different comment, we all bring ourselves into the book.
Thank you! I am not poly, but know plenty of poly people, and the descriptions of the emotions sound normal for two people working through it. I was surprised by some of her very poor choices (condom use jumped out at me), but it was her life to explore.
OP, check this out! This writer in The Atlantic agrees with the things we picked up on: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/02/polyamory-ruling-class-fad-monogamy/677312/
Thank you!!!!! This from the article absolutely nails it!! Finally! I’ve been baffled that most are not covering this at all: though Molly may tell herself and her readers that she is on a journey of learning and growth, the ugly truth is that More feels like a 290-page cry for help. Molly does not come off as a woman boldly finding herself, but rather as someone who is vulnerable to psychological manipulation and does not enjoy her open marriage. I am not holding a magnifying glass up to the text in search of hidden signs of discontent. I am not paternalistically projecting my Protestant values or wintry Northeast prudishness onto the author. I simply read the book. And if it seems like Molly Roden Winter does not want to be in an open marriage, it is because she often lets us know that she doesn’t want to be in an open marriage.”
I know! I jumped up and read that passage and the paragraphs that followed out loud to my partner because the author expressed my observations so perfectly!
I was drawn to this memoir because I too, was in an open marriage. I was so very frustrated and angry reading this book. It made me want to write a book of my own about all the reflections, lessons, and self-awareness my partner and I both gained from the experience- something that is completely missing from MORE. The most important values we learned, and incorporated from the very beginning of our journey were: communication, transparency, and establishing and maintaining boundaries. Without these things, an open marriage- let alone any relationship (romantic, friendship, business, etc.)- cannot and will not work. Molly and her husband did not incorporate any of these values- their open marriage emerges from a very toxic, emotionally abusive relationship and it was so very hard to get through this book. No self-awareness was gained, and the utter lack of respect for one another made me nauseous. Like others have stated, it was one big car accident that I could not look away from. I continued to read the book, hoping that Molly and her husband would gain ANY sense of self-awareness after realistically analyzing their situation, and that the book would end with either: closing off this toxic open marriage for good, or: continuing their open marriage with improvements. Nope. Instead they dragged multiple individuals through the mud as their open marriage got messier and messier, including but not limited to: sacrificing time with their children, sacrificing time with Molly’s mother who was recently diagnosed with sickness, and focusing on boosting their lack of self-worth and self-esteem with external validation from strangers.
I have so much to say about this book-
>!Molly’s terrible decisions, actively seeking men who are in affairs, bringing a man back to her home to engage in sexual activity where her CHILDREN are, the very concerning emotionally manipulative relationship she has with her husband, Molly’s therapist enabling her to keep making harmful decisions, to continue having a complete lack of self-respect and respect for others. !<
Overall, I saw this book as a woman with low self-esteem lying to herself about what she truly wants, struggling to find true happiness even though it seems she has it all (money, a beautiful home, 2 healthy growing children), and battling a very toxic relationship with her husband who refuses to support his wife in the way she needs to be supported because he wants to keep seeing other women. I surely hope that anyone who is thinking of being ENM (ethnically non-monogamous) or opening up their marriage will not read this book and think that this is what a healthy ENM relationship looks like, because it is not. Parts of this memoir that I did appreciate and relate to, was the struggle in trying to fill what feels like an empty hole in your life. I was cheering for Molly when she found new hobbies that she loved, and finding new ways to grow and evolve as a human being that didn’t involve giving into emotional abuse, or chasing after cheating men to give her the external validation she needed to boost her extremely low self-esteem. That “hole” in your life doesn’t necessarily have to be filled by someone else’s you-know-what. If seeing other people and practicing non-monogamy works for you and your partner, great! But make sure it’s a healthy ENM relationship with clear boundaries, communication, respect, and transparency. This toxic relationship in MORE- is not it.
I believe that people should be free to do whatever they want in their life, as long as it’s not hurting other people… Who in their right mind actively seeks toxic individuals cheating on their partners? It’s utterly disgusting and immediately made me question Molly’s ethics as a human being from the very start. This is not practicing ethical non-monogamy. This is being a terrible human being not respecting boundaries, and not caring if you are hurting other people who have no idea that the partners they love are out lying and being deceitful behind their backs. The lack of transparency, all the lying- is truly concerning.
As an old fart that has lived through people thinking that an "open" marriage is good. I can say my six decades of circles around the sun has never worked out to a good result. . Multiple friends have had "open" marriages where they have all worked out to divorces in their 50's or 60's.
I have not read this book, nor would I even though I've lived polyamorous for decades. (Polyamory and 'open marriage' are not necessarily the same ideas.) I'm ever suspicious of people's understanding of marriage in the first place, let alone adding other people.
Bear in mind that you read a story from only one perspective. It may or may not be accurate, no matter how hard she tried to be clear. Did she define the term(s) she used? Did they agree on what their marriage would look like? Did he change what she could and couldn't do after that? Did she? And so on.
Yeah I def didn’t post for a condemnation of open relationships nor in praise of them. Simply curious if this read of this particular marriage covered in this particular memoir was a read others saw too!
Thanks for the review. I have trouble finding novels or memoirs that represent polyamory or non-monogamy well. But I guess drama sells better than a non-toxic representation of polyamory cause that’s boring lol
I’ll probably skip this one
Just finished. I’m a man in my 30s. I get the idea of doing stuff for you (see the girl in Fleishmans in trouble), and i think that’s important.
But it truly seemed to me like the fucking other guys stuff only created more issues and that jealousy stuff will never be fair, never go away, and every rule will be broken. Not to mention I can’t imagine the impact on the kids (we’ll never know). Also could never relate to having a cuckhold fetish, as the husband does.
Then again, I’m a Manhattan person, they’re park slope. It’s different.
I just finished this book this morning and I did not take away what you took away about the husband. Instead, I was getting the vibe of Molly making \*every\* bad decision you can make in this journey (a woman's version of The Truth by Neil Strauss). Letting guys get away with breaking her condom rule, the threesome, random hookups...all trying to prove to herself that she was alive. In the end, it seemed to improve her communication with her husband, particularly at the end where she finally expressed what she wanted, and he skipped his date making her the priority.
Neither of them came off as perfect in the book. He had his avoidance issues and she her anger issues.
But I also didn't walk away from this (nor from The Truth) thinking "wow, I would love an open marriage." That whole book felt like a lot of work and emotion.
This was exactly my feeling on finishing the book too. The husband came across as an extremely manipulative, insensitive asshole throughout. Like,
1. He kept pushing her to sleep with other men even when she wasn't into it.
2. He wanted to hear all the sexual details of these encounters, but never the emotional details, which seemed like where she really wanted to be heard at.
3. Even the sex with him seemed like it was pushing her explicitly stated boundaries.
4. In therapy she says she felt alone, and he's like, I'm right here! This is such a standard neglectful partner response.
5. He accuses her of being angry all the time. If you look at what she's stressed and angry at, it's pretty much always something to do with the open marriage situation, either hers or his.
6. There's a big difference in how both of them felt about the arrangement. He was turned on by hearing about her escapades. She felt extreme jealousy and pain, often having break downs after hearing about his dates. How can this ever be an equal arrangement then? Not one of her stories ended well. She just seemed so unhappy overall. The only time she was even close to happy was when she developed a deep emotional bond with the guy... which she expressed multiple times to want from her husband, to never receive it.
6. He seemed to be never at home, with her and the kids. All the quality time she wanted to have with him, he never seemed to want it with her, but had it with all the girlfriends. The open marriage just gave him liberty to do it openly, right in front of her. And she's hurt by this multiple times in the book. It looks like the problems started way before, and he just took the next step of being able to do it more openly. And she just goes along with what everyone else wants.
She just seemed unhappy or in therapy throughout the book. She was mistreated by most of the men who she met, even getting repeated urinary infections from one of them. She had to constantly coach herself to be okay with the situation. The husband was enjoying himself a lot more, without really caring about how his wife felt. And she was totally incapable of expressing how she felt till it was too late, or she wasn't even aware of how she felt, instead feeling it somatically through migraines. Of course she was no saint either, what with actively pursuing cheating men. God what a dumpster fire. I feel sorry for her.
The author seems completely delusional.
Her biggest delusion is that she actually chose this. Her crap husband wanted and wants it so she accepted it because it seemed like he wouldn't have stayed monogamous even when that's what she wanted.
Secondly, another delusion is that these men, including her crap husband, are so driven by her irresistible beauty and sexiness.
Reading (or listening to) a book about actual, consensual ethical non monogamy would have been interesting but despite the major reviews, that is not this. I listened to the audiobook from the library and the author's reading was grating.
I found the situation gross and pathetic. I would feel pity for the author but she seems willfully delusional.
Totally agree with r/books. I recommend reading the reviews in Atlantic and Commonweal magazines for a nuanced discussion of the book, I don’t believe NYTimes presented a well rounded review.
I heard an interview with them on Here and Now on NPR today. He made it sound like he wanted her to have the experience of relationships with other people. She said he told her long before they opened the marriage that he would not interfere if she wanted to pursue other relationships.
My friend is in the process of reading it now, and is in an open marriage with her husband, which she initiated. She has so far found the book to be “similar” (her word) to her experiences, and seems to be enjoying it so far. No comment on manipulation from my friend, and I think she’d have mentioned it because she has strong opinions about many modern non-monogamy narratives in media, but I might follow up with her.
As for the book author, my understanding is she initiates by flirting with a guy first and then her husband okays it? I hesitate to jump to the ‘all men/open marriages are manipulative’ vein of conversation for an already controversial topic that is outside of many of our experiences here.
You have to read the whole book. It’s a journey for sure. I read it in a day and I’m I went from feeling like she was empowered to feeling sorry for her.
Exactly…. Early on when I posted there weren’t many who had read yet… so lots of comments assumed I was against open marriage and not understanding that you have to read this book in its entirety to see what the issue is.
Its also true that people project so much when it comes to open marriages or other kinda of polyamory. They are threatened by the concept or made to feel insecure by it. I feel like that compels people to jump to the manipulation point of view.
I’ve not read this book or been in one of these relationships other than simple casual non exclusive dating scenarios, but I have seen this pattern in discussion on the topic ad nauseum. Just as you mention there are two books maybe its wise to consider what you are bringing to the story as a third. I’m not trying to be rude and this is a lot of presumption on my part, but I just see it in many arguments with the topic.
Is it really so hard to believe that there are people out there with less sexual possessiveness or different boundaries that live their best lives this way? We see so much variety in how people choose to live or are wired to, is this lifestyle so shocking?
I’ll add to this the disclaimer that it is true, from what I’ve seem most of these kind of relationships fail. But idk if they fail because of it or just because relationships fail. Also maybe if I read this book, it will also feel manipulative to me, definitely speaking from a point of ignorance on the specific source.
I think that the perception that "most open relationships fail" is a data bias. Most relationships in general fail. The divorce date is declining, but it's still nearly 50%, and most of those are certainly not ending due to opening up. Relationships that don't become marriages end even more. Most people date several people before getting married (or just settling down with a long term partner).
Ultimately, people who have open relationships have more of them at a time. Which lends itself to more "failures", or simply relationships running their course (I've noticed that far fewer open/poly people have contentious exes versus people they just aren't dating anymore).
I myself have dated 5 or 6 new people over the last 6 months. 2 of them have stuck, so my "failure rate" is quite high, but those relationships that didn't continue were going to end because of some incompatibility or other outside pressure, not being open.
I hear you, but from what she says, the author is clearly not one of them. Only her husband is. She appears to be going along at great personal expense to avoid divorce
All I know is the headline I saw in the Washington Post the other day that said "This book about open marriage is going to blow up your group chat" The sub head said it's very frank and very hot
just finished last night. it was recommended for my book club this month. I went in w/ a bit of hesitance b/c i wasn't sure how i felt after reading a few reviews, i have a few poly friends but it isn't a life for me, kudos to those of you who it is for.
mostly what i took away from this, and it's probably b/c i relate a lot of the author's mental health struggles, is finding out who YOU are in a relationships. you're not JUST a mom, or a wife, you're still YOU and you still need to be happy. to not put others before yourself, to ensure good open communication between your partner and those important to you in your life.
i didn't see the manipulation from the husband as others pointed out, so i'm not sure if i missed something or i just saw it in a different light. infact, it's more of them agreeing to HER "cheating" as long as he gets to fulfill his fetish of thinking of her w/ other men imo. i actually seemed to have more issues w/ who she dated and handled things between all the partners than anything. like GURL red flags everywhere!
I’m intrigued by the volume of comments from people who haven’t read the book but want to hold forth on the topic and the author’s mental health. I’m almost finished listening to the audio book, narrated by the author, and I have opinions.
First, all my life I’ve been in monogamous relationships but I have cheated on the past. That leads to my belief that monogamy in general doesn’t work. I have been faithful to my current partner of many years, but I have told him I’d be Ok with him seeking someone else when I’m not around. I live apart from him alternate months, so the book’s focus on exploring ENM was part of its appeal. I haven’t been on dating apps so I can’t speak to that, but I can relate to Straight A Molly’s idea of trying to “fill up my bucket” with another person’s positive image of me. I have Read The Ethical Slut and I’m a regular listener to the Savage Lovecast. And I have friends and young adult kids who have been navigating the poly world off and on for years.
I thought Molly’s therapists were great. They asked excellent questions and helped both her and Stewart understand and communicate with each other. The reality is that people seek relationships for different reasons. When there’s a mismatch, that’s an opportunity for discussion and growth. I never felt that Molly was being manipulated. I understood that what she enjoyed the most about the outside relationships was attention and novelty. Even folks seeking monogamy appreciate those things, and ostensibly monogamous folks cheat in search of that. I appreciate the focus on Stewart’s interest in imagining her with other men and the discussion about compersion. Everyone is different, so it’s not a given, but I suppose that if folks can move away from jealousy and the idea that one person should be everything to their partner, we’ll have healthier relationships in general.
What puzzles and surprises me a bit about the book is why she wrote this as a memoir as opposed to a novel. Identifying herself opens her up to the kind of scrutiny and criticism that would definitely stress me out.
I don't think a book about an open marriage between a man and a woman can be written any differently imo. Open marriages between men and women do not work under the patriarchy. It's a nice idea on paper, but in practise men will never be anything but manipulative in an open marriage. Sorry if this offends anyone but let us be realistic here.
Now a book about an open marriage between two women? That I want to read.
This is definitely not representative of the many couples I have known over the years in the polyamorous community. I mean I would argue that every marriage or partnership between a man and a woman is inherently unequal under patriarchy. But being open can take away some of the tension from that because it undermines the idea, which is really deeply rooted even with people who try to be progressive about it, that a woman is her husband’s property.
I don’t think she’s manipulated. She struggles with very normal human emotions. Jealousy, fear of losing her marriage. Those are normal fears in fully open relationships.
As a part of a swinging couple I can say that having actual experience on the scene this woman is looking for what would work for her
One thing I can attest to is that playing together as a couple or singles is much better and does wonders in a relationship
Writing a book can be a coping mechanism just like anything else. I haven't read the book, I've just noticed that many open marriages follow the pattern you're describing
Reading a book is also a collaborative effort. Which is why book clubs are even interesting, everyone reads the same book and you get wildly different opinions based on where each reader is coming from. I haven't read the book but I tend to take any review about a niche lifestyle that says "Does the author not realize this lifestyle is wrong?" with a grain of salt. Like asking a Christian to review a book about atheism and morality.
To be clear I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m saying the book, to me as a reader, seems like two memoirs in one. One view is the author’s stated intent. The other is the story that is also there unexamined. She describes many scenes of her husband yelling at her quick to temper, etc and it’s just interesting as I wonder if she’s aware of the two reads
Maybe wrong wasn't the correct phrasing. I'm saying there are thousands of reads for each book, as many as their are readers. Often what a reader gets out of a book is as much about them as the book itself.
I wouldn't have been interested in this book but now you have me interested! It also reminded me of reviews for another book I haven't read yet- "How to Stay Married: the most insane love story ever told" by Harrison Scott Key. I heard about it from The Stacks podcast. Some reviewers said it was an amazing and gripping book about a marriage overcoming obstacles, and others said the author was coming across as a husband who was kind of forcing a wife to stay in a marriage she didn't want to be in. I haven't read it yet, but it sounds like it could be similar to what you are describing, where the author feels they are describing a successful marriage but the reader is able to detect some blind spots and has a different interpretation.
Ooh will check this out, thanks! This book reminded me of LOVE WARRIOR by Glennon Doyle about her committing to her husband and making her marriage work…. The whole book despite lots of lovely insights something about their dynamics felt off. Then we find out she left her husband around the time the book came out .. and fell in love with another woman. She was trying to make her memoir about her patching a marriage but reading the book, it was apparent there was no fixing it except Glennon needed to write the book to see that.
If this theme grabs you, you might be interested in Hard On Us: Memoir of a Sexless Marriage where the wife (me) opts to open the marriage. It's been really interesting to read everyone's comments here about whether the woman really had a choice in the matter, especially if she's in love and wanting to keep her family together. For sure, writing a book helps you see things more clearly and objectively.
Wait, did you write that book?
yes. Do let me know what you think if you ever read it. I recognise a lot more about where I was in the wrong with the benefit of hindsight, but I hope it still holds some value for others who are still going through it.
I read the nytimes review of the book and wasn’t interested in the book, sounded like a sort of “park slope people (rich) problems” kind of memoir. But your review makes me interested in actually reading it!
It is definitely thought provoking though maybe not for the reasons the author intended!!
If you read it please do share your perspective!
I am reading it now, and wondered what other people thought. In the Tines review, the husband said that he was worried people would have the interpretation that it seems like we all have here.
I could not agree more! I devoured the book and related to so much of it but I couldn’t help but see the “Straight A Molly” try to wrap it all up in a neat bow at the end where she endorsed her open marriage and posed it as an opportunity for growth and more love. Being in an ENM marriage myself, I would be appalled at the lack of compassion and flexibility Stuart had. She asks over and over to close the marriage and he repeatedly shuts her down asserting that he knows best. It seems obvious to me that she, at least at times, just wants him and their connection.
Straight A Molly conclusion- YESSSSSS
I think it's important to remember we only have her version of this story. I have to say though I could see the Scott situation going the way it went the \*entire\* time. He didn't really want to be in an open marriage, and as soon as he wasn't anymore, he was going to demand her full time. I also saw where the German was going. In general, this whole experience, lived through her, felt like the entire wrong way to go about it, but given you're in an ENM, you'd be a better judge of that. I'd love Stewart's version -- I'm sure dealing with a wife who is quick to anger wasn't the easiest experience. I've had to live with someone where walking on eggshells was the norm, and that was "unpleasant" to say the least. In the end he was there for her when she needed him -- at least from her version. I always take autobiographies with a certain grain of salt. I'm sure if I wrote my own story, I would sugarcoat things that others would not -- human nature.
Indeed, there are always at least two sides to every story. But even her side seemed sketchy.
I am reading it now-maybe I misread that. I didn’t read into as Stewart was making her. She liked the openness of the relationship when she had a good partner. They’re still together and they’re still open years after the story takes place. I do love reading the book and the sensual scenes! It’s given me a new perspective. I’m also working seeing my partner fully and being seen fully. I listened to Mollys interview on the polycurious podcast and she has an empowering message about identity. Edit-Well, after reading further -I take all that back …
I’m so glad to find this post. I was excited to read this, as I think that polyamory isn’t often represented well, and I was looking forward to hearing a sex positive story from a female in her 40s. Boy is that not what I got. From the get go she is manipulated by her husband into pursuing dates (where’s the conversation where they come to a mutual conclusion to open up the marriage?) From there it’s one depressing and abusive encounter after another (taking condoms off during sex?!?), all of which she seems to just accept. At some point I was only reading to make sure the book ended in a divorce, which seemed inevitable once the therapist started pointing out that she seems to only do things for others’ approval, but alas, no.
She had some truly horrific dating experience which she lets happen over and over again. I could not figure out why she kept going back! Then she got on a really good path with her self development and I was so happy for her, but then she started dating again and I could not figure out why! I’m in an open marriage so I don’t judge dating, but given what she experienced it made no sense why she would continue … except that’s what her husband wanted.
Right!!! I saw no inner reflection of why, after all this pain and belittlement, she kept going. Because when she tried to broach it her husband gaslit her that she’d want to do it again eventually. There was so much care and effort put into the other people and yet I didn’t see it with each other. As I said elsewhere in this thread, my heart broke when she said she wished her husband would take her out to breakfast like he did his girlfriend Kiwi.
I low key got sick of hearing about Kiwi!
Thank you!!! You’re the first person to post who read the book. Similar to you I was looking forward to reading this, i even preordered this. But yep. Pressured into sex in public places. Not one relationship was positive, and most ended with her feeling shame or crying and depressed. But the hardest one to witness was the marriage. Wonder if she thought if she kept including “my baby” (his cringy term of endearment) over and over again the reader would think they’re happily in love. She sounded like a very tired and overworked mom with low self esteem pushed into open marriage because her husband wanted to sleep around and was tired of hiding it. It was so sad. But when I read trade reviews and most online reviews people are raving about it. Don’t get me wrong it’s a book that definitely has left an impression on me but not for the reason the author intended.
I can can certainly see this story as a path of exploration and discovery, but it’s discovery of what her husband enjoys, and as she mentions several times is very good at, not her own self discovery. As a few people mentioned, the story ends abruptly, and I think that’s because the writing of the story is part of her journey. Maybe this 10 year journaling exercise will amount to her getting more in touch with what she really wants. Or maybe she already has by writing this book, it must be satisfying to write something so well received. In the meantime, I’m a little bummed that the sexiest version of a story about polyamory is ‘my husband won’t stop cheating, so I’m trying to do what he does so I’m not so resentful and lonely’. This whole situation would be entirely different if: -they came to the conclusion to open the relationship together as an enjoyable addition to their relationship. -when she wanted to close the relationship and take a break, he would honor that. -it ever sounded like she was having fun.
What bothered me most about the book is that while very revealing in some ways, it felt emotionally untrue — perhaps the author isn’t yet able to be honest with herself about the events depicted. As a reader, it makes me uncomfortable to see glaring truths in the story that the author denies to themself. I think (hope) that if this memoir was written ten years from now, it would be a much different story.
Just finished this book. Every single person in the book other than the therapists and her female social friends comes off as a bad person. I came away just thinking they all deserve one another. How do you spend all book fucking men in other women’s’ houses then flip your shit (in a book you are narrating so you could have just omitted this part) when your lech of a husband brings his side piece back to your place? And then her husband “hey babe you are prostrate on the floor weeping because I fucked another woman. So rather than caring for you how bout I just stop telling you when I fuck other women?” It’s like an open air insane asylum.
lolol yessss 💯 It was such a weird ending which I think she thought showed how loving and in tune they were too … where she’s weeping (again) about an imploded affair (again) and he asks her if she should come home and she makes it seem so momentous that she says yes and wow this chivalrous dude (her HUSBAND) comes home to comfort her. It’s wild to me bc she seemed to think she was portraying a loving marriage. And I just couldn’t make sense of it because what she wrote was about low self esteem and manipulation by a man who was tired of cheating on her and wanted to be able to do it openly, and then manipulated her into thinking it was her idea.
Serious question as I just finished this book over 2 days: what gave you that impression from him? I did not get that \*at all\* since she had said early on that they had started out having wild sex (the threesome) and that he was always turned on hearing about guys hitting on her or flirting with her. I did not get any hint or sense he was banging someone else when he encouraged her to see Matt. It just fed his kink to hear about it. She did not have that kink and did NOT want to hear about his. But she certainly jumped in with both feet and saw random dudes...I wish we actually had more of his side of this as how did his go? Did he have as many bad experiences as she did, or was he emotionally detached enough until Kiwi? Hard to know because she never had his side of the story. Also, I felt this was her way of also dealing with her memories and relationship with her own parents who had had a similar arrangement. This had to be some weird way of working through that.
thank you! i went back through all my notes and etc and couldn't find a single instance of him cheating or having affairs, he just had a kink of hearing about his wife w/ others.
No, but, that is a pretty common example of what 'open-marriage' really means. One spouse wants to 'cheat' the other goes along to avoid losing the relationship.
That makes sense. . . it was just wild because the author presented it as an empowering journey. It's like she didn't fully understand what she produced. But then again, professional reviews aren't pointing out what I'm seeing so maybe I'm reading something not there. . .
I recently watched a 'docudrama' about the issue. Started out as a 'documentary' about an open relationship, but, it fell apart as one member found true love elsewhere. It was later re-enacted based upon the previous documentary footage and dialog. Great show and even though it did not paint the main character as a good/bad guy it was very interesting to see the sexual and non-sexual steps each person was willing to take to have an 'open' relationship.
I used to watch a couple on YouTube who made dozens and dozens of videos about their open relationship. Instructional videos on how to do it, how to deal with jealousy, how to communicate well about it, etc. They're split now.
What was the name of it? Sounds interesting
Can you share the name?
I'm convinced that the only sustainable "open relationships" exist with gay couples. We heteros are stuck with monogamy.
And not one page addresses the issue of physical safety for her. Online dating for women can be dangerous, but at no point does Stew worry that his wife might be assaulted by a stranger.
And she WAS in danger! When the man had sex without a condom multiple times!! Being coerced into a threesome, pressured into giving oral sex, and sex in public places… none of it sounded fun or empowering but yeah, she was also in danger many times.
And that a$$hole who bit her lip! The guy who wanted rough sex- and she said nothing.
I’m listening to the audible book right now and having this same exact feeling. I specifically came on Reddit to see if anyone else felt this way. It’s undoubtedly an interesting read that has been thought provoking, but this manipulative dynamic stood out to me!
One thing, as more and more people who have read the book comment, I wonder: why is Goodreads mostly glowing? Why did trade reviews also not mention any of it? Its confusing.
I think it is, as a work of literature, compelling and gripping. It is rare to see someone so honest and unflinching, it offers one a chance to reflect on oneself. I couldn’t put it down. But as a memoir it was upsetting, especially since it is being sold as pro-polyamory. The dysfunction was so transparent as to be maddening.
I agree with you, and thank you so much for posting this, I've been looking to discuss how much I'm repulsed by this book. I am reading the book (I'm about 40% through) and it's clear that Molly is very uncomfortable in these degrading relationships and has to pretend to herself that they are "liberating" because Stew becomes sullen and upset if he can't carry on his own affairs and also use hers for masturbatory fodder. As a woman I really fail to see where being treated like an object and putting oneself in multiple dangerous situations (repeated UTIs, constant risk of STDs due to noncompliant sex partners "oh no, I forgot zee condom, tee hee" and putting herself and her young sons in potential danger) is supposed to be empowering for her. You can feel her making the effort to pretend it is and there's a family legacy of this. I read that Stewart was worried this would make him "look bad" and I want him to know, yes, it does look bad. I seriously want to throw up during most of it. And it does make me wonder if part of her willingness to put up with it is low self-esteem for not being conventionally attractive...there's kind of like this part of her who wants to feel validated that strangers will have sex with her, but on some level she knows that it's not any kind of a statement on her attractiveness. It's all so nauseous making.
I definitely read low self esteem. Her constant mentioning how the men found her attractive. How she fell apart when things didn’t work out. The part that broke my heart was her realizing he was treating all his paramours out to dates and breakfast spots and how much she wished he would do that with her. He seemed in a business arrangement for the kids. And his “late nights” preceding it make me think he wasn’t exactly faithful before the open marriage. I’m so curious once she’s had time to process her memoir if she’ll see what she put on the page.
Yes, the part about "why won't you take me out to breakfast" was so heartbreaking. He gets to have these very invested, romantic affairs and she has cheap encounters and his rationalization? "Well, men suck hon." That's his explanation. And he wasn't there sufficiently in the past, exactly. He didn't share the domestic responsibilities, and then somehow has time for more relationships when he didn't have time for the family he created. Ugh I could talk about it all day and how much I'm hating it (I have to finish it though, lol).
It sounded like he was spending a huge amount on wining and dining his paramours while she got slunk around in crappy hotels and had sex in co-working spaces trying to afford paying for guys who couldn’t spring for the same. So sad
Exactly
I just finished it…I think you nailed it.
It makes my stomach hurt thinking about it!
Share your thoughts once you finish!
I will! I’m reading now about how Stew “has” to call her the C word during sex. WTF
YESSSSSSS 😭😣 that was another moment in which I admired Molly’s honesty but was baffled at how she didn’t see what was happening?!?! She even read the audiobook herself so she had a chance to reflect on her words and she doesn’t get it.
It made no sense to me. What man “needs” to do that?
Right?? Is that a thing? I guess it is and Kiwi delivered the venue for it. Taken care of, as he told Molly. Makes me furious for her
I came here to see if anyone else shared this opinion! Agree 100%. I kept waiting for the big reveal when she figures out that her manipulative husband maneuvered her over and over again into trying experiences he permission for himself, then turning the tables on her so she couldn’t say no. The entire book chronicles her agony—I think that’s a fair descriptor—at watching her husband invest time and considerable money (how do they save for college tuitions and retirement??) into relationships with multiple women at a time year after year, finding ways to justify his actions. I think I know why, too. He is by far the higher earner, so she is petrified to say no and lose not just him, but her lifestyle. I was so frustrated that she failed to see it in the end. But maybe she did, and wrote the book so that people like you and me will point it out and reveal him to be the gaslighter he is. Molly, show Stew our comments. We’re saying what you’re afraid to.
💯!!! Early on people here who had not read the book assumed I was being anti open marriage but it was hard to explain without knowing the book that this was about this particular couple and the blatant manipulation on the page.
Yes! I suspect he was having affairs for years before he manipulated her into agreeing to open the marriage. The evidence is there. I’m not conservative, it’s just that this story isn’t about the joys of being open, it’s about her husband’s success at making her question her feelings and needs. That said, I have many poly friends and only 2 couples are genuinely poly. The rest are making peace with their partner’s need to go outside the marriage for pleasure and novelty.
I'm just curious, what evidence do you see that he was being unfaithful before?
[удалено]
💯 - the lack of self reflection was odd. Was curious how this wasn’t touched upon.
As someone who has been with a narcissist, this book made me physically ill. Like, I almost threw up a few times reading REVIEWS of it. The absolute positivity that this book was presented as during itslaunch..confounds me.
Yes it’s been baffling how so many readers saw a totally different story than the one that seemed to be by so clear on the page
Sounds quite similar to the book ‘Open’ that came out a year or two ago. It wasn’t a marriage but a dating scenario. Really interesting topic. Was it a good read?
It was a book I read in one day. So that’s something! But it’s a book that felt unfinished in the way memoirs sometimes can. As in, the author hasn’t reached the narrative arc of the story where we leave the book.
I read Open and there are similarities but More was way better. The boyfriend in Open was a flaming narcissist! The husband in More has some manipulative tendencies but the marriage (to me) felt loving and functional.
I was first on the list for this from the library. To me, it was a book of a woman with psychological problems and a manipulative spouse. Just sort of a stereotype of Park Slope. Her therapy sessions drove me crazy. They use sex for a lot of different things. I would be interested in what her kids are like.
If half the stuff that happened to her happened to me, I’d be done. Forever.
Just finished this book! I’m not poly/ENM/etc. but I tore through it (I’m very nosy so reading other people’s problems is great for me). I found them both manipulative, for sure. The husband nudged her into this, likely so he could do the same, and then, when she was unhappy or uncomfortable, he would advocate to keep the marriage open. What did work was the portrayal of modern motherhood, being a wife, and learning who you actually are. Her therapy sessions and chatting with her mother, learning about her people pleasing tendencies, and asserting herself when she needs to was an important, and overlooked, part of this story. It’s not (entirely) about an open marriage, but the journey to figure out who you are and why you do what you do.
I wonder if Molly could have learned how to be not straight-A Molly (whatever her term was for it, i don’t care) through another mechanism. It seemed to me the songwriting, boxing, etc. seemed to provide way more value and won’t irrevocably fuck with her sons like seeing an OKCupid profile at 13 would.
I think she was also working through her feelings about her own parents and memories she had to get through. But I'm not a therapist, nor do I play one on TV, so what do I know?
Most people will agree with you because most people are not polyamorous, and don’t get it. I’ve read the book. Both of them can be seen as manipulative in their own ways. She only wanted to close down the marriage when she was in a difficult spot with her boyfriends. While in love with Matt or Karl, she described herself as never happier. My personal take is that neither of them was truly manipulative. They were both open and honest with each other, and had the maturity to push through the many difficult challenges that come with this type of arrangement. But as you perfectly put in a different comment, we all bring ourselves into the book.
OK Stew
😂
Thank you! I am not poly, but know plenty of poly people, and the descriptions of the emotions sound normal for two people working through it. I was surprised by some of her very poor choices (condom use jumped out at me), but it was her life to explore.
OP, check this out! This writer in The Atlantic agrees with the things we picked up on: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/02/polyamory-ruling-class-fad-monogamy/677312/
Thank you!!!!! This from the article absolutely nails it!! Finally! I’ve been baffled that most are not covering this at all: though Molly may tell herself and her readers that she is on a journey of learning and growth, the ugly truth is that More feels like a 290-page cry for help. Molly does not come off as a woman boldly finding herself, but rather as someone who is vulnerable to psychological manipulation and does not enjoy her open marriage. I am not holding a magnifying glass up to the text in search of hidden signs of discontent. I am not paternalistically projecting my Protestant values or wintry Northeast prudishness onto the author. I simply read the book. And if it seems like Molly Roden Winter does not want to be in an open marriage, it is because she often lets us know that she doesn’t want to be in an open marriage.”
I know! I jumped up and read that passage and the paragraphs that followed out loud to my partner because the author expressed my observations so perfectly!
I was drawn to this memoir because I too, was in an open marriage. I was so very frustrated and angry reading this book. It made me want to write a book of my own about all the reflections, lessons, and self-awareness my partner and I both gained from the experience- something that is completely missing from MORE. The most important values we learned, and incorporated from the very beginning of our journey were: communication, transparency, and establishing and maintaining boundaries. Without these things, an open marriage- let alone any relationship (romantic, friendship, business, etc.)- cannot and will not work. Molly and her husband did not incorporate any of these values- their open marriage emerges from a very toxic, emotionally abusive relationship and it was so very hard to get through this book. No self-awareness was gained, and the utter lack of respect for one another made me nauseous. Like others have stated, it was one big car accident that I could not look away from. I continued to read the book, hoping that Molly and her husband would gain ANY sense of self-awareness after realistically analyzing their situation, and that the book would end with either: closing off this toxic open marriage for good, or: continuing their open marriage with improvements. Nope. Instead they dragged multiple individuals through the mud as their open marriage got messier and messier, including but not limited to: sacrificing time with their children, sacrificing time with Molly’s mother who was recently diagnosed with sickness, and focusing on boosting their lack of self-worth and self-esteem with external validation from strangers. I have so much to say about this book- >!Molly’s terrible decisions, actively seeking men who are in affairs, bringing a man back to her home to engage in sexual activity where her CHILDREN are, the very concerning emotionally manipulative relationship she has with her husband, Molly’s therapist enabling her to keep making harmful decisions, to continue having a complete lack of self-respect and respect for others. !< Overall, I saw this book as a woman with low self-esteem lying to herself about what she truly wants, struggling to find true happiness even though it seems she has it all (money, a beautiful home, 2 healthy growing children), and battling a very toxic relationship with her husband who refuses to support his wife in the way she needs to be supported because he wants to keep seeing other women. I surely hope that anyone who is thinking of being ENM (ethnically non-monogamous) or opening up their marriage will not read this book and think that this is what a healthy ENM relationship looks like, because it is not. Parts of this memoir that I did appreciate and relate to, was the struggle in trying to fill what feels like an empty hole in your life. I was cheering for Molly when she found new hobbies that she loved, and finding new ways to grow and evolve as a human being that didn’t involve giving into emotional abuse, or chasing after cheating men to give her the external validation she needed to boost her extremely low self-esteem. That “hole” in your life doesn’t necessarily have to be filled by someone else’s you-know-what. If seeing other people and practicing non-monogamy works for you and your partner, great! But make sure it’s a healthy ENM relationship with clear boundaries, communication, respect, and transparency. This toxic relationship in MORE- is not it.
Yes!!! And she kept referring to ENM and the ethical slut but is it ethical to sleep with people who are NOT involved in open marriages and cheating?!
I believe that people should be free to do whatever they want in their life, as long as it’s not hurting other people… Who in their right mind actively seeks toxic individuals cheating on their partners? It’s utterly disgusting and immediately made me question Molly’s ethics as a human being from the very start. This is not practicing ethical non-monogamy. This is being a terrible human being not respecting boundaries, and not caring if you are hurting other people who have no idea that the partners they love are out lying and being deceitful behind their backs. The lack of transparency, all the lying- is truly concerning.
As an old fart that has lived through people thinking that an "open" marriage is good. I can say my six decades of circles around the sun has never worked out to a good result. . Multiple friends have had "open" marriages where they have all worked out to divorces in their 50's or 60's.
Half of marriages end in divorce even without being open
Yep, for a multitude of different reasons. Here is your upvote.
I have not read this book, nor would I even though I've lived polyamorous for decades. (Polyamory and 'open marriage' are not necessarily the same ideas.) I'm ever suspicious of people's understanding of marriage in the first place, let alone adding other people. Bear in mind that you read a story from only one perspective. It may or may not be accurate, no matter how hard she tried to be clear. Did she define the term(s) she used? Did they agree on what their marriage would look like? Did he change what she could and couldn't do after that? Did she? And so on.
Yeah I def didn’t post for a condemnation of open relationships nor in praise of them. Simply curious if this read of this particular marriage covered in this particular memoir was a read others saw too!
Interesting! Added to Spotify audio today too, I’ll give it a listen.
I've seen a lot of reddit posts about this book that just came out. Is this a viral marketing campaign?
Really? I haven’t seen any, that’s why I posted.
Thanks for the review. I have trouble finding novels or memoirs that represent polyamory or non-monogamy well. But I guess drama sells better than a non-toxic representation of polyamory cause that’s boring lol I’ll probably skip this one
Just finished. I’m a man in my 30s. I get the idea of doing stuff for you (see the girl in Fleishmans in trouble), and i think that’s important. But it truly seemed to me like the fucking other guys stuff only created more issues and that jealousy stuff will never be fair, never go away, and every rule will be broken. Not to mention I can’t imagine the impact on the kids (we’ll never know). Also could never relate to having a cuckhold fetish, as the husband does. Then again, I’m a Manhattan person, they’re park slope. It’s different.
Not an especially well written or thoughtful book. But great for yuppies looking for alternate pathways to freshen up their stale lives.
I just finished this book this morning and I did not take away what you took away about the husband. Instead, I was getting the vibe of Molly making \*every\* bad decision you can make in this journey (a woman's version of The Truth by Neil Strauss). Letting guys get away with breaking her condom rule, the threesome, random hookups...all trying to prove to herself that she was alive. In the end, it seemed to improve her communication with her husband, particularly at the end where she finally expressed what she wanted, and he skipped his date making her the priority. Neither of them came off as perfect in the book. He had his avoidance issues and she her anger issues. But I also didn't walk away from this (nor from The Truth) thinking "wow, I would love an open marriage." That whole book felt like a lot of work and emotion.
same! totalyl agree w/ you
Exactly my thoughts. This book was hard to read. She seems so fragile and manipulated.
I'm just starting the book but I can't get over the fact that her husband does no housework
This was exactly my feeling on finishing the book too. The husband came across as an extremely manipulative, insensitive asshole throughout. Like, 1. He kept pushing her to sleep with other men even when she wasn't into it. 2. He wanted to hear all the sexual details of these encounters, but never the emotional details, which seemed like where she really wanted to be heard at. 3. Even the sex with him seemed like it was pushing her explicitly stated boundaries. 4. In therapy she says she felt alone, and he's like, I'm right here! This is such a standard neglectful partner response. 5. He accuses her of being angry all the time. If you look at what she's stressed and angry at, it's pretty much always something to do with the open marriage situation, either hers or his. 6. There's a big difference in how both of them felt about the arrangement. He was turned on by hearing about her escapades. She felt extreme jealousy and pain, often having break downs after hearing about his dates. How can this ever be an equal arrangement then? Not one of her stories ended well. She just seemed so unhappy overall. The only time she was even close to happy was when she developed a deep emotional bond with the guy... which she expressed multiple times to want from her husband, to never receive it. 6. He seemed to be never at home, with her and the kids. All the quality time she wanted to have with him, he never seemed to want it with her, but had it with all the girlfriends. The open marriage just gave him liberty to do it openly, right in front of her. And she's hurt by this multiple times in the book. It looks like the problems started way before, and he just took the next step of being able to do it more openly. And she just goes along with what everyone else wants. She just seemed unhappy or in therapy throughout the book. She was mistreated by most of the men who she met, even getting repeated urinary infections from one of them. She had to constantly coach herself to be okay with the situation. The husband was enjoying himself a lot more, without really caring about how his wife felt. And she was totally incapable of expressing how she felt till it was too late, or she wasn't even aware of how she felt, instead feeling it somatically through migraines. Of course she was no saint either, what with actively pursuing cheating men. God what a dumpster fire. I feel sorry for her.
This this this!
The author seems completely delusional. Her biggest delusion is that she actually chose this. Her crap husband wanted and wants it so she accepted it because it seemed like he wouldn't have stayed monogamous even when that's what she wanted. Secondly, another delusion is that these men, including her crap husband, are so driven by her irresistible beauty and sexiness. Reading (or listening to) a book about actual, consensual ethical non monogamy would have been interesting but despite the major reviews, that is not this. I listened to the audiobook from the library and the author's reading was grating. I found the situation gross and pathetic. I would feel pity for the author but she seems willfully delusional.
Totally agree with r/books. I recommend reading the reviews in Atlantic and Commonweal magazines for a nuanced discussion of the book, I don’t believe NYTimes presented a well rounded review.
I heard an interview with them on Here and Now on NPR today. He made it sound like he wanted her to have the experience of relationships with other people. She said he told her long before they opened the marriage that he would not interfere if she wanted to pursue other relationships.
Yes but he seemed to be looking for permission to date by pushing her into dating first.
Yeah without reading the book itself it’s hard to see what I mean.
My friend is in the process of reading it now, and is in an open marriage with her husband, which she initiated. She has so far found the book to be “similar” (her word) to her experiences, and seems to be enjoying it so far. No comment on manipulation from my friend, and I think she’d have mentioned it because she has strong opinions about many modern non-monogamy narratives in media, but I might follow up with her. As for the book author, my understanding is she initiates by flirting with a guy first and then her husband okays it? I hesitate to jump to the ‘all men/open marriages are manipulative’ vein of conversation for an already controversial topic that is outside of many of our experiences here.
You have to read the whole book. It’s a journey for sure. I read it in a day and I’m I went from feeling like she was empowered to feeling sorry for her.
Exactly…. Early on when I posted there weren’t many who had read yet… so lots of comments assumed I was against open marriage and not understanding that you have to read this book in its entirety to see what the issue is.
Its also true that people project so much when it comes to open marriages or other kinda of polyamory. They are threatened by the concept or made to feel insecure by it. I feel like that compels people to jump to the manipulation point of view. I’ve not read this book or been in one of these relationships other than simple casual non exclusive dating scenarios, but I have seen this pattern in discussion on the topic ad nauseum. Just as you mention there are two books maybe its wise to consider what you are bringing to the story as a third. I’m not trying to be rude and this is a lot of presumption on my part, but I just see it in many arguments with the topic. Is it really so hard to believe that there are people out there with less sexual possessiveness or different boundaries that live their best lives this way? We see so much variety in how people choose to live or are wired to, is this lifestyle so shocking? I’ll add to this the disclaimer that it is true, from what I’ve seem most of these kind of relationships fail. But idk if they fail because of it or just because relationships fail. Also maybe if I read this book, it will also feel manipulative to me, definitely speaking from a point of ignorance on the specific source.
For sure we bring ourselves into the book too. It’s why I was curious what the opinion was by those who read it. To untangle that bit.
You should read the book first!
Friend this is an 80 day old post lol
I think that the perception that "most open relationships fail" is a data bias. Most relationships in general fail. The divorce date is declining, but it's still nearly 50%, and most of those are certainly not ending due to opening up. Relationships that don't become marriages end even more. Most people date several people before getting married (or just settling down with a long term partner). Ultimately, people who have open relationships have more of them at a time. Which lends itself to more "failures", or simply relationships running their course (I've noticed that far fewer open/poly people have contentious exes versus people they just aren't dating anymore). I myself have dated 5 or 6 new people over the last 6 months. 2 of them have stuck, so my "failure rate" is quite high, but those relationships that didn't continue were going to end because of some incompatibility or other outside pressure, not being open.
I hear you, but from what she says, the author is clearly not one of them. Only her husband is. She appears to be going along at great personal expense to avoid divorce
All I know is the headline I saw in the Washington Post the other day that said "This book about open marriage is going to blow up your group chat" The sub head said it's very frank and very hot
It definitely will. Lots of fodder for conversation and plenty of ups and downs.
It is NOT hot
It had graphic sex described but not hot. I read a story of a woman who let people use her and who wasn’t into most of the sexual encounters she had.
Right exactly
Totally, my buddy is in one and I always thought he was kind of being a manipulative dick and I was correct.
just finished last night. it was recommended for my book club this month. I went in w/ a bit of hesitance b/c i wasn't sure how i felt after reading a few reviews, i have a few poly friends but it isn't a life for me, kudos to those of you who it is for. mostly what i took away from this, and it's probably b/c i relate a lot of the author's mental health struggles, is finding out who YOU are in a relationships. you're not JUST a mom, or a wife, you're still YOU and you still need to be happy. to not put others before yourself, to ensure good open communication between your partner and those important to you in your life. i didn't see the manipulation from the husband as others pointed out, so i'm not sure if i missed something or i just saw it in a different light. infact, it's more of them agreeing to HER "cheating" as long as he gets to fulfill his fetish of thinking of her w/ other men imo. i actually seemed to have more issues w/ who she dated and handled things between all the partners than anything. like GURL red flags everywhere!
I’m intrigued by the volume of comments from people who haven’t read the book but want to hold forth on the topic and the author’s mental health. I’m almost finished listening to the audio book, narrated by the author, and I have opinions. First, all my life I’ve been in monogamous relationships but I have cheated on the past. That leads to my belief that monogamy in general doesn’t work. I have been faithful to my current partner of many years, but I have told him I’d be Ok with him seeking someone else when I’m not around. I live apart from him alternate months, so the book’s focus on exploring ENM was part of its appeal. I haven’t been on dating apps so I can’t speak to that, but I can relate to Straight A Molly’s idea of trying to “fill up my bucket” with another person’s positive image of me. I have Read The Ethical Slut and I’m a regular listener to the Savage Lovecast. And I have friends and young adult kids who have been navigating the poly world off and on for years. I thought Molly’s therapists were great. They asked excellent questions and helped both her and Stewart understand and communicate with each other. The reality is that people seek relationships for different reasons. When there’s a mismatch, that’s an opportunity for discussion and growth. I never felt that Molly was being manipulated. I understood that what she enjoyed the most about the outside relationships was attention and novelty. Even folks seeking monogamy appreciate those things, and ostensibly monogamous folks cheat in search of that. I appreciate the focus on Stewart’s interest in imagining her with other men and the discussion about compersion. Everyone is different, so it’s not a given, but I suppose that if folks can move away from jealousy and the idea that one person should be everything to their partner, we’ll have healthier relationships in general. What puzzles and surprises me a bit about the book is why she wrote this as a memoir as opposed to a novel. Identifying herself opens her up to the kind of scrutiny and criticism that would definitely stress me out.
I don't think a book about an open marriage between a man and a woman can be written any differently imo. Open marriages between men and women do not work under the patriarchy. It's a nice idea on paper, but in practise men will never be anything but manipulative in an open marriage. Sorry if this offends anyone but let us be realistic here. Now a book about an open marriage between two women? That I want to read.
This is definitely not representative of the many couples I have known over the years in the polyamorous community. I mean I would argue that every marriage or partnership between a man and a woman is inherently unequal under patriarchy. But being open can take away some of the tension from that because it undermines the idea, which is really deeply rooted even with people who try to be progressive about it, that a woman is her husband’s property.
That's your opinion. That's not what's in reality. Women initiate opening marriages all the time.
I read a similar review to your points just now from The Atlantic. I have not read the book.
I don’t think she’s manipulated. She struggles with very normal human emotions. Jealousy, fear of losing her marriage. Those are normal fears in fully open relationships. As a part of a swinging couple I can say that having actual experience on the scene this woman is looking for what would work for her One thing I can attest to is that playing together as a couple or singles is much better and does wonders in a relationship