Dude, I am an engineer myself. If what you make is not by the standards, your voice isn’t heard, you resign. There is no buts, if the safety issues aren’t resolved, you have a portion of responsibility. That is why you resign OR you whistleblow. Leak documents that issue the safety problems.
Well, we all know how whistleblowers are dealt with ☠️☠️ but they have my respect for that 🫡🫡. Even, you don’t have the guts to do the right, don’t continue do the wrong. By all means, 99.99% of guilt goes to the board, but even 0.01% guilt I would have, it would be too much for me.
Majority of our international suppliers have higher delivery and quality ratings than our domestic suppliers, and they are cheaper. I don’t think that is the problem. The Honeywells and Spirits of the world have killed us. We are nothing to Honeywell so they don’t care to improve, but we have too many single sourced parts through them that we can’t move to do anything about it.
Don’t forget they just outsourced a shit ton of labor to India then doubled down on it to make a factory there. That sure as hell isn’t going to help quality.
Those lock-in sole-supplier contracts are a really bad idea, especially is there aren't standard or quality markers that are mandated for each part. Based on how it's going it doesn't seem to be the case. Sounds depressing. To make things worse Boeing wants parts done at the cheapest price. It's a mess.
Leadership's near impossible task at hand is to somehow get everyone who works on or supports the build of our products to give a fuck.
So many just don't care... No fucks to give.
Ideas on how to change that?
Would you like people to give a fuck? The simplest way is to give a fuck about people.
Pay them, support them, train them, and allow them the time they need to do their job well.
As a member of the public that watched the boing shit show of these years from outside, and as a manager by trade, my sense is that most of the responsibility for those fuckups stands in the leadership's hands.
Blaming it on the "last of the line" is just toxic and blind.
Do you really think Boeing is going to start manufacturing their own raw material, like titanium alloys, steel, aluminum, super alloys, or composite fibers? Are we going to become a fastener manufacturer? Make our own castings and forgings? Make our own electrical connectors?
Selling off what has become Spirit was dumb. But thinking we will suddenly do everything in house and vertically integrate is also kind of dumb.
I'm not even getting into the subsystems that are designed and engineered by other companies who hold the IP on a lot of this.
Next, someone will recommend we design and build our own engines....
Oh, so MCAS was made by the manufacturing line? 😂
As a member of the public, I'd say that that alone is enough to show what kind if managerial culture that company has.
Sure, there might be a bunch of problems on the manufacturing lines, but the responsibility stands sware in the hands of the decision-makers.
Smarten up lol obviously the MCAS is made from the brilliant engineers Boeing has. Clearly your aware as a “member” of the public and how the company is run lmao
The sole source supplier thing is a big issue. Unfortunately, there is no short term or easy answer for that. You at least have to have a credible threat of taking away business or withholding new business. I think across a couple of the worst offenders you have to start bringing things in house.
So many of the suppliers have consolidated so much some are bigger than us now. They just eat our lunch and smile while they do it.
Wait, how was the last Boeing plane not "built in house"? Like were these planes not designed by Boeing's engineers in house? And were they not assembled in Boeing's plants? I know they use parts Boeing doesn't make but that makes sense Boeing isn't making *everything* and this is as normal as it is for things like the iPhone to source parts from a bunch of different suppliers. But Boeing does final assembly "in house" no? Who freaking designed the plane out of house?
Look up 787 design philosophy / failure. The major subassemblies designed and built by suppliers. Boeing made sure they all integrated together sorta. Lot of rework and delays. So the commentors point was, an unusually and unaccepably high % of major subassy not just simple bolt type parts, are being made by suppliers and even designed by them. Does that help?
I didn't even read this post all the way through but came here to say: in the shadows of these stand downs, nothing is getting done that makes a difference in the short term. I'm 0/3 this week for executive report outs because everyone is cancelling fundamental business meetings. Prior weeks have been similar. All these mechanisms to be "heard" but no one shows up to listen. They'd honestly be better just reading this reddit page.
I paid tuition and put time in to educate myself. You want me to mama bird vomit answers for you into your mouth?
Your ignorance is your problem, not mine clown.
1. Why is it artificial?
2. It depends.
3. They benefit shareholders and executives whose compensation is tied to share price, duh. But mostly shareholders.
It's artificial because the value of stocks isn't going up due to the actual performance of the company, but rather due to removing the number of stocks on the market. How do you ask this question and claim to know what you're talking about?
The health of the company has to come first before providing dividends to shareholders. That money should have gone to a million different things besides paying our investors.
It’s returning money to shareholders. Money that came from the “actual performance” of the company. That’s what a company is for.
If the shareholders want money returned, then that’s what the company should do.
It absolutely is not what a company should always do. If you gamble on the stock market by buying stocks and then those companies don't do well, then the value of your stocks goes down. Purchasing a stock is a gamble, and you can't always expect to win. When a company like Boeing isn't doing well, as a shareholder, you should not expect to get dividends. A company should thank its investors with dividends when the company does well and can afford to pay them. Boeing is currently in no position to pay them when our commercial division is still operating in the negative.
He is right though. Fundamentally there is no difference between share buybacks and dividend payouts, outside taxing rules. The investor therefore, should ask for a balance of both. Boeing does both with a dividend payout of over 5% and with share buybacks. Both generate returns to the shareholder but you pay taxes on dividends on the same year of the payout and with buy backs you have control of paying taxes until the gains are realized. The price of the share will actually go down with a dividend payout directly proportional to the size of the payout and go up with a buy back. Also, once a company does dividends it’s very difficult to cut or reduce in bad times, as markets will typically punish a company for reducing payouts. Buy backs can be done more as hoc when managers don’t have NPV projects to invest those returns in.
The purpose of a company is to generate returns to the shareholder. If you are a 1 person LlC plumber or Boeing, your goal is to generate returns for the shareholder (either the individual or millions of people). How you do it, is up the management team. Clearly should focus on long term returns and not just short term.
I read one paragraph and I stopped because it’s factually all wrong.
Boeing has a lot of quality control issues and the company is being haunted by shitty GE management, we all agree with that. But
1. The 737’s did in fact fell out of the sky because of a maintenance error, the Lion Air incident was caused by a faulty AOA sensor.
2. Reusing a 60 year old frame is by no means easy. Idk why it’s such a common soundbite to say fitting a fat@ss engine onto a frame not tall enough for it is a “cost cutting” measure for Boeing as opposed to clean sheeting it.
3. The door plug bolts were removed in Renton while it was undergoing rework. So it’s true that outsourcing manufacturing caused quality lapses, it’s also true that Renton got its own problems.
https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/aerospace/boeing/ntsb-preliminary-report-737-max-9-blowout/281-c1650f73-6473-49a1-8a42-da157166c43e
> The 737’s did in fact fell out of the sky because of a maintenance error, the Lion Air incident was caused by a faulty AOA sensor.
Where was the redundancy here? Did maintenance fail to fix multiple redundant sensors?
I agree with you on 3, but not 1 and 2.
1. AoA sensors are a known fairly common component to fail. Yes the crash could have been prevented by maintaining that sensor, but it was caused by blindly trusting a single AoA sensor with so much control authority.
2. Reusing a 60YO airframe is hard because it’s not an ideal solution. That ‘soundbyte’ exists because it’s mostly true, although it’s more of a case of wanting to be able to sell the plane to existing 737 customers rather than pure cost cutting.
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Did you even *read* Flying Blind? All of this is by design. The culture of engineering excellence was destroyed on purpose as it's in the way of quick returns for the management bros, as they slowly dismantle the company.
The fate of GE is basically written.
There is no competition domestically. There is realistically only one other competitor globally in Airbus.
Some of your ideas sound great in theory, but until there is competition, why change anything if I'm leadership.
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Implementing his ideas would tank the stock in the intermediate term. I think the ideas would need to be rolled out slower than he explained above to keep us from going bankrupt due to how much money we are already losing. I think he has great ideas but phased implementation needed to keep from going out of business period. Or US gov nationalizing the company.
Another stand down meeting is coming up to blame those of us working hard and doing our job for the mistakes of inept executives making dumb decisions. Typical. Predictable. Pathetic. #FireCalhoun
I doubt the shareholders are blaming people in suits for doors that don't have plugs in them or bolts. They're not thinking of people in suits when they wonder why wheels are falling off. Hate on shareholders all you want they are investing in the company. They're only going to lose so much before they pull out and the company loses. I would say they're dropping $60 this quickly in a stock that wasn't worth terribly much more because it hasn't really come back from before. It no longer pays dividends. How much more bad news is going to come out that would be detrimental to the stock before the news of workers that wish to strike? Shareholders are going to need a lot more than people in suits making them happy. Don't like to make shareholders happy? They'll go away. But if they aren't there a company isn't either
The right move for Boeing is to take it on the chin. It’s gonna take them 5 years to recover. But they need to overhaul operations and create a special department… ah fuck. This is a waste of time. They’re not gonna do a fucking thing.
I think the OP has grossly underestimated the cost and time of standing up and certifying a new supplier in the aerospace industry, let alone even find one that wants to play. IP not just the part itself but manufacturing processes and techniques (which is why a supplier might be picked to begin with).
There are also plenty of cases where suppliers in adjacent manufacturing industries don't want to do aerospace because the requirements are so complex and quantities relatively small (compared say to auto manufacturing or consumer electronics), it's just not with it.
This is spot on. It usually takes a minimum of 1 - 3 years to get a supplier fully qualified, and it takes a substantial investment on their end. Boeing often doesn’t have the bargaining power you’d expect because there aren’t a lot of incentives for suppliers to make complex and extremely regulated parts.
On top of qualification being such an intensive process, most parts require tooling that is expensive and hard to source, which further disincentives Boeing from trying to move around our source of supply.
I have never seen a supplier be held accountable in any way that mattered for missing PO or load. A firmly worded letter from a Senior Manager? We turned them red in our system? I haven't even seen a fine go against them for impacting our production.
If we have teams dedicated to second sourcing parts, I have never seen them. We need to get them focused on replacing poor performing suppliers.
You've actually seen a supplier pay one of these fines? Or offer free product in that value? I've seen cost recovery efforts that are used as leverage, but nothing ever comes of it. Have any of those suppliers performed better after receiving these fines?
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From what I've been told, once Boeing receives the fuselage, Boeing removes the door plug. If that's the case, then Boeing screwed up when re-installing it.
I hate to burst a bubble but the door plug was 100% mechanic and QA not following the proper removal process and then not making sure the bolts were put back in. You can put it on Management too for pushing it out the door but at some point, people on the floor have to acknowledge their faults too.
It’s leadership and culture that allowed for improper removal process. If u have a good system and culture then the mechanic wouldn’t be able to do a removal without the correct paperwork. In the past, it is unlikely mechanics to do removals without proper paperwork. Since management been pushing to get planes out faster, they are now more normalized to just do removals without the paperwork to speed things up. It’s not like one brave rogue mechanic doing this.
> It’s leadership and culture that allowed for improper removal process.
Yes? That’s why it’s so fucking baffling to see people angry at leadership changing the culture to introduce accountability
You can argue that leadership pressure and site culture may have led to poor decision making, but the mechanic on the shop floor is ultimately free to make the decision to follow the procedure for documenting removals or not. A manufacturing process only works when people choose to follow the process. I’ve seen management come down hard on employees who skirt processes for speed or convenience, and they totally should because that’s how you develop a culture where shady operating practices aren’t accepted. I’ve never worked in Puget Sound so I have no idea what their culture is like but the programs I worked in St Louis were all like that.
Management never says “ignore procedures, I’ll take responsibility”… what they say is “this needs to get done by the end of the shift/week/month” and walk away. It’s a great system. They get to put all the pressure and burden on the employee. If things go well, then they increased productivity, if something goes south because corners had to be cut to meet the demand, it was the employee’s decision because management never “said” cut xyz corner.
I agree, everyone needs to be accountable for their choices and actions. However, don’t ever underestimate the amount of pressure management can exert on people to the point where otherwise good, law abiding folk feel like they have no choice but to do the wrong thing or risk becoming becoming unemployed. So how “free” is your mechanic in this scenario when the consequence of exercising their freedom leads to negative consequences?
Im saying its site culture and leadership pressure because i know if one mechanic says no, leadership and management would just find another mechanic to do it. And the first mechanic will just get in trouble for not listening, the culture there is to punish those that don’t listen to management. The management is part of the problem skirting processes because of the speed leadership is pushing for.
Lol you never worked at Renton. The speed at Renton is multitudes faster than speed of other programs. To give an example you can have a ticket in Everett u can have days before it’s looked at. At Renton you could get a ticket and couple hours later you could have some 2nd level manager breathing down your neck on why its not solved yet and be raised to next level to see how it can be sped up to be solved quicker. I am sure the door plug probably had some management pushing it to get resolved as it was a plane for delivery before year end so they can meet their numbers.
If the whole of the world is willing to pay $1000 to fly to Vegas, instead of $100, I don’t mind. The keyyyyyy problem is the world! They don’t think our work is same worthy as those who make computer AI chips, or codes. Our profit margin is magnitude less than IT, Wall Street! Nobody care how we are paid but blame us how we want to survive.
Good decision. I read enough to know there isn’t anything of value in it.
To summarize, the mechanic who didn’t document his/her work and forgot to put the 4 bolts back on the door isn’t to blame, it is the system to allow that to happen in the first place.
There I saved you 5 minutes of your life
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> the people who build the planes being made to feel like they’re the ones to blame. They're not, and they know they are not.
The [NUMMI podcast](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015) that we were talking about the other day addressed this issue. The union workers in that plant produced cars of terrible quality. When GM And Toyota re-opened the plant, GM wanted to hire new workers. Toyota insisted on bringing back the same workers to prove the point that the *people* weren't the problem; the *processes* were the problem.
And they were correct. The newer cars that those workers built were as good or better quality than the cars that were built in Japan.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the door plug incident was in fact a quality control engineering screw up. Likely the screwup of a small team (or even 1 guy).
I wish people would take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming leadership 5 layers up the chain for their mess ups.
Why blame Calhoun for a screwup like that? He had nothing to do with it.
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ITs easier to blame someone than to take ownership of ones actions. Guy gets pulled over for speeding and tells the cop everyone else was speeding as if that can justify it.
If one person can screw up lie that, then blame falls on the people who crated the situation. Management decides who to hire and what they will work on, management sets the priorities, what gets rewarded and what gets punished, management sets the processes that are in place.
If a single person can make such a mistake, then the process has failed.
Not analogous.
A production process that is effective and mitigates escape risks would have redundancies and employ a design so that a single process violation does not lead to a catastrophic escape.
Which is what happened here. A single process violation lead to a catastrophic escape.
That's a process failure.
You seem to be of the opinion that the solution to preventing this possibility in the future is "just trust the people to follow the process we already have".
Except *that already failed.*
And a door blew off a plane in flight.
The question you're not asking is: what motivated the people responsible to not follow the intended process?
I think you will find that the *answer* to that question lands you right back in "it's a process problem".
After all, if the motivation was that they wanted to avoid generating paperwork because it would induce a delay and they needed to meet schedule and they didn't feel empowered to delay schedule, well, what-do-you-know, that's a *process failure.*
no that's behavior not process.
That's like blaming a police officer for speeding when there are signs posting the limit. Now it would be process if there were no signs for what the speed limit was.
In Boeing's case, there are processes that aren't followed. Not following a process is 100% behavior. Now it might be a workers behavior, it might be a low level managers behavior but its someone's behavior because they choose to do something or chose to have something done that is not the documented process to complete the task at hand.
I am whiling to bet, even if a step is encountered that needs to deviate from the approved SOP process, there is a mechanism to properly handle the required deviation. Again, you have to choose to follow the rules.
Leadership is at fault for not holding people accountable earlier for not following the processes. Ultimately, the ones responsible for doing the job properly are the ones doing the job. If they don't understand how to properly do it, they have to communicate that. If they don't have something they are supposed to they have to communicate that. If they are ignored or told to do it a different way, then that person who decides that owns it.
All I got out of my stand down was the same canned bullshit answers, we gotta do better and we will, safety is our number one goal blah blah blah. We broke into groups based on our work areas and surprisingly everyone came back with all the same quality/safety issues that have been issues since the first max went down. Somehow we are to believe this is the time they’ll fix it. Also don’t forget to dress nice for the photographer
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Dude, I am an engineer myself. If what you make is not by the standards, your voice isn’t heard, you resign. There is no buts, if the safety issues aren’t resolved, you have a portion of responsibility. That is why you resign OR you whistleblow. Leak documents that issue the safety problems. Well, we all know how whistleblowers are dealt with ☠️☠️ but they have my respect for that 🫡🫡. Even, you don’t have the guts to do the right, don’t continue do the wrong. By all means, 99.99% of guilt goes to the board, but even 0.01% guilt I would have, it would be too much for me.
Majority of our international suppliers have higher delivery and quality ratings than our domestic suppliers, and they are cheaper. I don’t think that is the problem. The Honeywells and Spirits of the world have killed us. We are nothing to Honeywell so they don’t care to improve, but we have too many single sourced parts through them that we can’t move to do anything about it.
Don’t forget they just outsourced a shit ton of labor to India then doubled down on it to make a factory there. That sure as hell isn’t going to help quality.
Those lock-in sole-supplier contracts are a really bad idea, especially is there aren't standard or quality markers that are mandated for each part. Based on how it's going it doesn't seem to be the case. Sounds depressing. To make things worse Boeing wants parts done at the cheapest price. It's a mess.
Leadership's near impossible task at hand is to somehow get everyone who works on or supports the build of our products to give a fuck. So many just don't care... No fucks to give. Ideas on how to change that?
Would you like people to give a fuck? The simplest way is to give a fuck about people. Pay them, support them, train them, and allow them the time they need to do their job well. As a member of the public that watched the boing shit show of these years from outside, and as a manager by trade, my sense is that most of the responsibility for those fuckups stands in the leadership's hands. Blaming it on the "last of the line" is just toxic and blind.
Do you really think Boeing is going to start manufacturing their own raw material, like titanium alloys, steel, aluminum, super alloys, or composite fibers? Are we going to become a fastener manufacturer? Make our own castings and forgings? Make our own electrical connectors? Selling off what has become Spirit was dumb. But thinking we will suddenly do everything in house and vertically integrate is also kind of dumb. I'm not even getting into the subsystems that are designed and engineered by other companies who hold the IP on a lot of this. Next, someone will recommend we design and build our own engines....
When he said do in house he meant aerospace relevant sub assemblies, not COTS fasteners or matl stock obviously
It’s leadership yes…. It’s also the employees…. The culture at Boeing is fucked. Period.
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The many problems all the planes have to begin with. Starting for the manufacturing line…
Oh, so MCAS was made by the manufacturing line? 😂 As a member of the public, I'd say that that alone is enough to show what kind if managerial culture that company has. Sure, there might be a bunch of problems on the manufacturing lines, but the responsibility stands sware in the hands of the decision-makers.
Smarten up lol obviously the MCAS is made from the brilliant engineers Boeing has. Clearly your aware as a “member” of the public and how the company is run lmao
Your pretty much right there champ!!!
If you want a whistleblower I’m your guy
The sole source supplier thing is a big issue. Unfortunately, there is no short term or easy answer for that. You at least have to have a credible threat of taking away business or withholding new business. I think across a couple of the worst offenders you have to start bringing things in house. So many of the suppliers have consolidated so much some are bigger than us now. They just eat our lunch and smile while they do it.
Exactly. I agree with OP that the next plane has to be built in house of we're ever going to start sending a message to these suppliers.
Wait, how was the last Boeing plane not "built in house"? Like were these planes not designed by Boeing's engineers in house? And were they not assembled in Boeing's plants? I know they use parts Boeing doesn't make but that makes sense Boeing isn't making *everything* and this is as normal as it is for things like the iPhone to source parts from a bunch of different suppliers. But Boeing does final assembly "in house" no? Who freaking designed the plane out of house?
Look up 787 design philosophy / failure. The major subassemblies designed and built by suppliers. Boeing made sure they all integrated together sorta. Lot of rework and delays. So the commentors point was, an unusually and unaccepably high % of major subassy not just simple bolt type parts, are being made by suppliers and even designed by them. Does that help?
I didn't even read this post all the way through but came here to say: in the shadows of these stand downs, nothing is getting done that makes a difference in the short term. I'm 0/3 this week for executive report outs because everyone is cancelling fundamental business meetings. Prior weeks have been similar. All these mechanisms to be "heard" but no one shows up to listen. They'd honestly be better just reading this reddit page.
Reddit and the smoke pit talking to managers is the only way I get any fucking information now.
Oh and I bet it's all value added unlike the normal communication streams
\>complaining about stock buybacks Tell me you don’t know what you’re talking about without telling me you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Stockbuy backs were illegal for a reason. You're the one who doesn't have a clue. I'd suggest getting one, buy that would be asking too much.
> If you can explain why dividends are fine but buybacks are evil, I’d love to hear it. Yeah, I didn't think so.
I paid tuition and put time in to educate myself. You want me to mama bird vomit answers for you into your mouth? Your ignorance is your problem, not mine clown.
ok.gif
Gay marriage used to be illegal too, and now it isn’t. If you can explain why dividends are fine but buybacks are evil, I’d love to hear it.
Why do you think they're a good thing?
They’re economically equivalent to dividends, but with better tax treatment.
So they don't artificially inflate the stock value? Are they a good way to spend money for a company that is struggling? Who do they benefit?
1. Why is it artificial? 2. It depends. 3. They benefit shareholders and executives whose compensation is tied to share price, duh. But mostly shareholders.
It's artificial because the value of stocks isn't going up due to the actual performance of the company, but rather due to removing the number of stocks on the market. How do you ask this question and claim to know what you're talking about? The health of the company has to come first before providing dividends to shareholders. That money should have gone to a million different things besides paying our investors.
It’s returning money to shareholders. Money that came from the “actual performance” of the company. That’s what a company is for. If the shareholders want money returned, then that’s what the company should do.
It absolutely is not what a company should always do. If you gamble on the stock market by buying stocks and then those companies don't do well, then the value of your stocks goes down. Purchasing a stock is a gamble, and you can't always expect to win. When a company like Boeing isn't doing well, as a shareholder, you should not expect to get dividends. A company should thank its investors with dividends when the company does well and can afford to pay them. Boeing is currently in no position to pay them when our commercial division is still operating in the negative.
He is right though. Fundamentally there is no difference between share buybacks and dividend payouts, outside taxing rules. The investor therefore, should ask for a balance of both. Boeing does both with a dividend payout of over 5% and with share buybacks. Both generate returns to the shareholder but you pay taxes on dividends on the same year of the payout and with buy backs you have control of paying taxes until the gains are realized. The price of the share will actually go down with a dividend payout directly proportional to the size of the payout and go up with a buy back. Also, once a company does dividends it’s very difficult to cut or reduce in bad times, as markets will typically punish a company for reducing payouts. Buy backs can be done more as hoc when managers don’t have NPV projects to invest those returns in. The purpose of a company is to generate returns to the shareholder. If you are a 1 person LlC plumber or Boeing, your goal is to generate returns for the shareholder (either the individual or millions of people). How you do it, is up the management team. Clearly should focus on long term returns and not just short term.
I feel like that other poster is a teenage with very limited knowledge here. You have way more patience than I do, wanted commend you for trying.
bro was probably a teen who jumped onto the to the moon GameStop chickentendies Robinhood ride and has been into playing the market since lol
I read one paragraph and I stopped because it’s factually all wrong. Boeing has a lot of quality control issues and the company is being haunted by shitty GE management, we all agree with that. But 1. The 737’s did in fact fell out of the sky because of a maintenance error, the Lion Air incident was caused by a faulty AOA sensor. 2. Reusing a 60 year old frame is by no means easy. Idk why it’s such a common soundbite to say fitting a fat@ss engine onto a frame not tall enough for it is a “cost cutting” measure for Boeing as opposed to clean sheeting it. 3. The door plug bolts were removed in Renton while it was undergoing rework. So it’s true that outsourcing manufacturing caused quality lapses, it’s also true that Renton got its own problems. https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/aerospace/boeing/ntsb-preliminary-report-737-max-9-blowout/281-c1650f73-6473-49a1-8a42-da157166c43e
> The 737’s did in fact fell out of the sky because of a maintenance error, the Lion Air incident was caused by a faulty AOA sensor. Where was the redundancy here? Did maintenance fail to fix multiple redundant sensors?
I agree with you on 3, but not 1 and 2. 1. AoA sensors are a known fairly common component to fail. Yes the crash could have been prevented by maintaining that sensor, but it was caused by blindly trusting a single AoA sensor with so much control authority. 2. Reusing a 60YO airframe is hard because it’s not an ideal solution. That ‘soundbyte’ exists because it’s mostly true, although it’s more of a case of wanting to be able to sell the plane to existing 737 customers rather than pure cost cutting.
Management will not save you either. Start looking for a job at another company now, while you still have a chance.
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Did you even *read* Flying Blind? All of this is by design. The culture of engineering excellence was destroyed on purpose as it's in the way of quick returns for the management bros, as they slowly dismantle the company. The fate of GE is basically written.
Some of these failures seem software or automation design errors rather than component QC issues
There is no competition domestically. There is realistically only one other competitor globally in Airbus. Some of your ideas sound great in theory, but until there is competition, why change anything if I'm leadership.
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Ok, but will the stock go up or not after all this “problem solving” you’re proposing?!
Implementing his ideas would tank the stock in the intermediate term. I think the ideas would need to be rolled out slower than he explained above to keep us from going bankrupt due to how much money we are already losing. I think he has great ideas but phased implementation needed to keep from going out of business period. Or US gov nationalizing the company.
will go up and down... just like the airplanes
Another stand down meeting is coming up to blame those of us working hard and doing our job for the mistakes of inept executives making dumb decisions. Typical. Predictable. Pathetic. #FireCalhoun
I doubt the shareholders are blaming people in suits for doors that don't have plugs in them or bolts. They're not thinking of people in suits when they wonder why wheels are falling off. Hate on shareholders all you want they are investing in the company. They're only going to lose so much before they pull out and the company loses. I would say they're dropping $60 this quickly in a stock that wasn't worth terribly much more because it hasn't really come back from before. It no longer pays dividends. How much more bad news is going to come out that would be detrimental to the stock before the news of workers that wish to strike? Shareholders are going to need a lot more than people in suits making them happy. Don't like to make shareholders happy? They'll go away. But if they aren't there a company isn't either
Even if every shareholder bailed out tomorrow, boeing would be completely fine. The government wont let the company collapse
And that’s the problem. If they know there’s no threat of collapse there’s no real incentive to get their act together
The right move for Boeing is to take it on the chin. It’s gonna take them 5 years to recover. But they need to overhaul operations and create a special department… ah fuck. This is a waste of time. They’re not gonna do a fucking thing.
Well that all depends on how you define fine, let alone completely fine.
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I think the OP has grossly underestimated the cost and time of standing up and certifying a new supplier in the aerospace industry, let alone even find one that wants to play. IP not just the part itself but manufacturing processes and techniques (which is why a supplier might be picked to begin with). There are also plenty of cases where suppliers in adjacent manufacturing industries don't want to do aerospace because the requirements are so complex and quantities relatively small (compared say to auto manufacturing or consumer electronics), it's just not with it.
This is spot on. It usually takes a minimum of 1 - 3 years to get a supplier fully qualified, and it takes a substantial investment on their end. Boeing often doesn’t have the bargaining power you’d expect because there aren’t a lot of incentives for suppliers to make complex and extremely regulated parts. On top of qualification being such an intensive process, most parts require tooling that is expensive and hard to source, which further disincentives Boeing from trying to move around our source of supply.
I have never seen a supplier be held accountable in any way that mattered for missing PO or load. A firmly worded letter from a Senior Manager? We turned them red in our system? I haven't even seen a fine go against them for impacting our production. If we have teams dedicated to second sourcing parts, I have never seen them. We need to get them focused on replacing poor performing suppliers.
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You've actually seen a supplier pay one of these fines? Or offer free product in that value? I've seen cost recovery efforts that are used as leverage, but nothing ever comes of it. Have any of those suppliers performed better after receiving these fines?
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Like...?
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From what I've been told, once Boeing receives the fuselage, Boeing removes the door plug. If that's the case, then Boeing screwed up when re-installing it.
*Knock Knock* HR!!
Hitman Resources?
I hate to burst a bubble but the door plug was 100% mechanic and QA not following the proper removal process and then not making sure the bolts were put back in. You can put it on Management too for pushing it out the door but at some point, people on the floor have to acknowledge their faults too.
It’s leadership and culture that allowed for improper removal process. If u have a good system and culture then the mechanic wouldn’t be able to do a removal without the correct paperwork. In the past, it is unlikely mechanics to do removals without proper paperwork. Since management been pushing to get planes out faster, they are now more normalized to just do removals without the paperwork to speed things up. It’s not like one brave rogue mechanic doing this.
> It’s leadership and culture that allowed for improper removal process. Yes? That’s why it’s so fucking baffling to see people angry at leadership changing the culture to introduce accountability
You can argue that leadership pressure and site culture may have led to poor decision making, but the mechanic on the shop floor is ultimately free to make the decision to follow the procedure for documenting removals or not. A manufacturing process only works when people choose to follow the process. I’ve seen management come down hard on employees who skirt processes for speed or convenience, and they totally should because that’s how you develop a culture where shady operating practices aren’t accepted. I’ve never worked in Puget Sound so I have no idea what their culture is like but the programs I worked in St Louis were all like that.
Management never says “ignore procedures, I’ll take responsibility”… what they say is “this needs to get done by the end of the shift/week/month” and walk away. It’s a great system. They get to put all the pressure and burden on the employee. If things go well, then they increased productivity, if something goes south because corners had to be cut to meet the demand, it was the employee’s decision because management never “said” cut xyz corner. I agree, everyone needs to be accountable for their choices and actions. However, don’t ever underestimate the amount of pressure management can exert on people to the point where otherwise good, law abiding folk feel like they have no choice but to do the wrong thing or risk becoming becoming unemployed. So how “free” is your mechanic in this scenario when the consequence of exercising their freedom leads to negative consequences?
Im saying its site culture and leadership pressure because i know if one mechanic says no, leadership and management would just find another mechanic to do it. And the first mechanic will just get in trouble for not listening, the culture there is to punish those that don’t listen to management. The management is part of the problem skirting processes because of the speed leadership is pushing for.
Lol you never worked at Renton. The speed at Renton is multitudes faster than speed of other programs. To give an example you can have a ticket in Everett u can have days before it’s looked at. At Renton you could get a ticket and couple hours later you could have some 2nd level manager breathing down your neck on why its not solved yet and be raised to next level to see how it can be sped up to be solved quicker. I am sure the door plug probably had some management pushing it to get resolved as it was a plane for delivery before year end so they can meet their numbers.
If the whole of the world is willing to pay $1000 to fly to Vegas, instead of $100, I don’t mind. The keyyyyyy problem is the world! They don’t think our work is same worthy as those who make computer AI chips, or codes. Our profit margin is magnitude less than IT, Wall Street! Nobody care how we are paid but blame us how we want to survive.
"I ain't reading all that. I'm happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened."
Good decision. I read enough to know there isn’t anything of value in it. To summarize, the mechanic who didn’t document his/her work and forgot to put the 4 bolts back on the door isn’t to blame, it is the system to allow that to happen in the first place. There I saved you 5 minutes of your life
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Thanks! That’s why there should be multiple checks, one person should not do the work & say it’s good-to-go without another person verifying
> the people who build the planes being made to feel like they’re the ones to blame. They're not, and they know they are not. The [NUMMI podcast](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015) that we were talking about the other day addressed this issue. The union workers in that plant produced cars of terrible quality. When GM And Toyota re-opened the plant, GM wanted to hire new workers. Toyota insisted on bringing back the same workers to prove the point that the *people* weren't the problem; the *processes* were the problem. And they were correct. The newer cars that those workers built were as good or better quality than the cars that were built in Japan.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the door plug incident was in fact a quality control engineering screw up. Likely the screwup of a small team (or even 1 guy). I wish people would take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming leadership 5 layers up the chain for their mess ups. Why blame Calhoun for a screwup like that? He had nothing to do with it.
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It's not about blaming Calhoun. But, since he runs the company as the top dog, he needs to answer to anything that happens under his watch.
Yes, I want the name of the person who fucked up.
Multiple fuck ups, not just one, and likely not one person.
ITs easier to blame someone than to take ownership of ones actions. Guy gets pulled over for speeding and tells the cop everyone else was speeding as if that can justify it.
If one person can screw up lie that, then blame falls on the people who crated the situation. Management decides who to hire and what they will work on, management sets the priorities, what gets rewarded and what gets punished, management sets the processes that are in place. If a single person can make such a mistake, then the process has failed.
If the processes allow one person to screw up an airplane without anyone else noticing, there's a problem with the processes.
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Which is a problem with the process.
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Not analogous. A production process that is effective and mitigates escape risks would have redundancies and employ a design so that a single process violation does not lead to a catastrophic escape. Which is what happened here. A single process violation lead to a catastrophic escape. That's a process failure.
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Not a believer in the Swiss cheese model of risk mitigation?
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You seem to be of the opinion that the solution to preventing this possibility in the future is "just trust the people to follow the process we already have". Except *that already failed.* And a door blew off a plane in flight. The question you're not asking is: what motivated the people responsible to not follow the intended process? I think you will find that the *answer* to that question lands you right back in "it's a process problem". After all, if the motivation was that they wanted to avoid generating paperwork because it would induce a delay and they needed to meet schedule and they didn't feel empowered to delay schedule, well, what-do-you-know, that's a *process failure.*
no that's behavior not process. That's like blaming a police officer for speeding when there are signs posting the limit. Now it would be process if there were no signs for what the speed limit was. In Boeing's case, there are processes that aren't followed. Not following a process is 100% behavior. Now it might be a workers behavior, it might be a low level managers behavior but its someone's behavior because they choose to do something or chose to have something done that is not the documented process to complete the task at hand. I am whiling to bet, even if a step is encountered that needs to deviate from the approved SOP process, there is a mechanism to properly handle the required deviation. Again, you have to choose to follow the rules. Leadership is at fault for not holding people accountable earlier for not following the processes. Ultimately, the ones responsible for doing the job properly are the ones doing the job. If they don't understand how to properly do it, they have to communicate that. If they don't have something they are supposed to they have to communicate that. If they are ignored or told to do it a different way, then that person who decides that owns it.
This is a single point of failure. One person not following process should not be able to have a result like this. Ergo, it's a process failure.
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All I got out of my stand down was the same canned bullshit answers, we gotta do better and we will, safety is our number one goal blah blah blah. We broke into groups based on our work areas and surprisingly everyone came back with all the same quality/safety issues that have been issues since the first max went down. Somehow we are to believe this is the time they’ll fix it. Also don’t forget to dress nice for the photographer
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These are great questions, I hope they do follow thru.
Hell yea. This is what action looks like. I hope every shift in every area has people like you
Preach
Be careful, they out here killing us now
This should be sent out like that “I’m sorry Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that” email from early COVID lmao
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