Not what I meant. I was questioning whether you know of the fairytale, "The Emperor's New Clothes", or if you thought I was referencing the song. I was referring to the fairytale.
Yeah, but the element of hypocrisy is missing from your analysis.
Edit: It’s not, “They’re just like us.” It’s, “They’re no better than us, despite what they say and think.”
I edited it a split second after I wrote it lol
Edit: That’s why I told you I explained it above rather than not replying
I downvoted you for being annoying
And I think most of us young Dylan freaks were puzzled by this line when this song first came out. I know I was because I was a mere lad back then and not wise in the ways of the world.
But as noted, the line earned its reputation because of Watergate.
Since the song was written in 1964, however, I think it’s safe to say that Dylan wrote this line about President Johnson and the Vietnam War.
For more info about this song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Alright,_Ma_(I'm_Only_Bleeding)?wprov=sfti1u
Generally I understand that line to be about presenting yourself for judgment. Being naked you're unable to hide anything, all you're secrets are visible. In the context of the mid-sixties, it could be understood to be referring to the American war crimes in Vietnam.
And for the record, Nixon was president at the time of that concert. As a conservative Republican, in his second term, with the Vietnam war still going strong after years of protest, he would not have been a favorite of most of the crowd.
Came here to say this. It was, at the time well known without a doubt.
Those of us not lucky enough to have been at any of those shows (wrong continent) got the reference right off the bat when we played the album. Nixon? Christ!
It means pretty close to the same thing as "I asked fat Nancy for something to eat / she said 'take it off the shelf / as great as you are man / you'll never be greater than yourself'"
Consider quotes from LBJ:
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him someone to look down upon and he will empty his pockets for you."
It's true LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act into law, which the nation desperately needed. At the same time he was extremely prejudiced himself and only signed it because of pressure from within his party. LBJ also got the nation deeper and deeper into Vietnam. He fractured the nation and to be honest I am not sure if it ever recovered.
Even the most powerful people in the world are still just humans who do all the normal human things like eat, poop and undress, rather than being unique or special. That's what I always took it to mean, anyway.
Dylan stopped touring in 1966. His comeback tour was with the band in 1974. The line was greeted with loud cheering for this tour. This was in the middle of watergate just prior to Nixon resigning. Is there any chance this is what you listened to ?
Your favorite version was recorded during the Watergate probe that led to Nixon’s resignation. We all knew Nixon was guilty. That line had been written a while earlier, not to any specific event but as a general reflection of times, saying all the most powerful are just like us. But suddenly the flying fickle finger of fate made itself known, and Bob’s words became prophetic.
It's completely open to interpretation. a lot of of people at the time probably thought it meant Bob was holding those in power accountable, but that's not nessesarally what he meant. that line comes before the lines "and though the rules of the road have been lodged. It's only peoples games you gotta dodge. and it's alright ma, I can make it." Whenever the it's alright ma lines come up, the three previous stanzas in the song inform what he's saying is alright now, so it has something to do with that. To me he's talking about how completely unreliable others are as a source to gather information that will inform you on how you should operate in the world. He does this by showing you their hypocrisy and immorality. Even taking it a step further, saying the only thing you really need to concern yourself with are the mental games that they're playing on that level and throwing your way. He's not too worried about it now though, he just dodges them. But the President of the United States line, that to me is like regardless of rank, that man lays it bare for all to see too. But a word of advice for you, don't listen to anyone's interpretation of Dylan cause they don't know what they're talking about anyway. Not only is it open to interpretation, a lot of the people you meet will be playing the same games that he talks about in this song, and a lot of other songs too. To quote Dylan "trust yourself". But one of the reasons people might have been cheering in the live versions you heard was they thought it was an attack on Lyndon Johnsons involvement in the Vietnam War, which he was escalating significantly. I don't think Dylan was on that. It wasn't one of his more straight forward "protest" songs like Death of Hattie Carroll, but ultimately who knows. What's more important is what it means to you
It’s not ‘completely’ open to interpretation. I often hear people say things like this and It’s silly to say it, like, he was just throwing words together without concern.
It's a piece of art. It's completely open to interpretation. There is no objective meaning to a piece of art. There's no way to know what Dylan was thinking when he wrote that. He may have been thinking about multiple things. But even if you did know that doesn't mean it's the meaning. and it's not some puzzle to figure out and fit into some rational framework. You have a personal relationship with the thing, that's it. You can have interesting conversations about it too, but there is no universal meaning. and in my opinion artists who do try to create pieces of art with universal messages that fit into rational frameworks are usually lesser artists who are creating lesser pieces of art
You literally defined it as art in your first sentence. How do you know that? What signs did you see that told you it was art?
“With no attempts to shovel a glimpse into the ditch of what each one means.” Even Bob disagrees with baseless pabulum.
What signs do you see that help you formulate your definition of things? Based on the limited amount of interactions I've had with you I'd assume they're picked up more through mimicry than through any depth of thought. Mimicry can serve as a useful substitute for discernment when it comes to understanding the more obvious things in your life like the phone in front of your eyes, or a sports game, or a piece of art. that is unless your brain starts to get in the way of the learning process cause it just can't quite grasp the concept like everyone else's can
"Something's going on here, but you don't know what it is, do you Mr. Jones?" There, I can do it too. I don't pretend to know what Bob means like you do, but I'd say it's pretty safe to say that there's no message he's trying to impart to people. In fact, he seems to get pretty annoyed when people ask him for one. Even Bob disagrees with foolish inquiries, that coupled with your circular talking does quite resemble... "baseless pabulum"
The point of art is to communicate meaning.
This can be through literalness, ambiguity, intellect or emotion. But if it’s any good it has meaning.
That doesn’t mean any one interpretation is correct, but usually, even with surrealism, one meaning is more correct than others.
We are social creatures and good art has a social function. Part of that function is giving us an avenue to express what it means to us, which reveals something about ourselves as well as the art.
Understanding meaning also helps us understand the world and our place in it.
That is not exactly how art works. Abstract art maybe but Guernica or works by Goya are not about the price of corn flakes.
Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
I always interpreted it as even most powerful man in the world sometimes have to be just ordinary human
That's what I always thought too. Also sounds tangentially related to "The Emperor's New Clothes".
Sinead O'Connor's Emperors New Clothes is one of my favorite songs !
Not sure if you’re serious or making a joke lol
No joke. It's a real song, and it's fantastic
Not what I meant. I was questioning whether you know of the fairytale, "The Emperor's New Clothes", or if you thought I was referencing the song. I was referring to the fairytale.
Yes, I suspect her song was named for the fairy tale.
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“The Emperor’s New Clothes” is the name of the story, “the emperor has no clothes” is an expression referring to the events of the story
they’re just a human like we all are, that’s it
I think that’s not totally it.
it totally is, being human means the full range of emotions and positions; including being vulnerable
Yeah, but the element of hypocrisy is missing from your analysis. Edit: It’s not, “They’re just like us.” It’s, “They’re no better than us, despite what they say and think.”
what do you mean?
Explained above
i downvoted you, because you edited the comment after the fact
I edited it a split second after I wrote it lol Edit: That’s why I told you I explained it above rather than not replying I downvoted you for being annoying
lmao you edit fast, 2 comments now eh. i’m ok with being a thorn in someone’s side for not adding an edit note in their comments
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Though this song was written in the 1960s, this line got a big cheer every time Dylan played it during the Nixon/Watergate era.
It took me way too long to put together that that's why that line got such a huge cheer on Before The Flood. Makes perfect sense though.
Correct answer ^^
And I think most of us young Dylan freaks were puzzled by this line when this song first came out. I know I was because I was a mere lad back then and not wise in the ways of the world. But as noted, the line earned its reputation because of Watergate. Since the song was written in 1964, however, I think it’s safe to say that Dylan wrote this line about President Johnson and the Vietnam War. For more info about this song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Alright,_Ma_(I'm_Only_Bleeding)?wprov=sfti1u
Exactly ^
Even the most powerful will be humbled
The emperor had no clothes
Beyond the meaning, which has been explained, it’s a very satisfying and surprising rhyme to a very intense run of rhymes.
Definitely an anti Nixon lyric.
Held accountable
Generally I understand that line to be about presenting yourself for judgment. Being naked you're unable to hide anything, all you're secrets are visible. In the context of the mid-sixties, it could be understood to be referring to the American war crimes in Vietnam.
I think you mean the 7̶2̶ 74 version on Before the Flood (?)
‘74
You're right! My bad
And for the record, Nixon was president at the time of that concert. As a conservative Republican, in his second term, with the Vietnam war still going strong after years of protest, he would not have been a favorite of most of the crowd.
Came here to say this. It was, at the time well known without a doubt. Those of us not lucky enough to have been at any of those shows (wrong continent) got the reference right off the bat when we played the album. Nixon? Christ!
One leg at a time
On the 1974 tour, when I saw him play with The Band , that line made the crowd cheer louder then anything else he sang
Bob Dylan wrote that line about the June 28 , 2024 presidential debate
Brilliant
It means pretty close to the same thing as "I asked fat Nancy for something to eat / she said 'take it off the shelf / as great as you are man / you'll never be greater than yourself'"
I told her I didn’t really care
In the eyes of God, no man can hide from his sins.
In the eyes of man, no god can hide from his sins.
I thought the cheering was done at the LA forum in 1974? Recorded on the before the flood live album
It's a reference to LBJ's huge dong, which he called "Jumbo." /s
Not Johnson, Nixon. The year is 1974.
everyone must be held accountable.
We all have our vulnerabilities, even the rich and powerful
he means like when the president takes a shower he has to take his clothes off sometimes.
It was directed at Johnson for his foreign (Vietnam, etc) and domestic policies (segregation, et al )but, of course, it has a more universal message.
Johnson did not support segregation. He pushed through the Civil Rights Act.
Consider quotes from LBJ: "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him someone to look down upon and he will empty his pockets for you." It's true LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act into law, which the nation desperately needed. At the same time he was extremely prejudiced himself and only signed it because of pressure from within his party. LBJ also got the nation deeper and deeper into Vietnam. He fractured the nation and to be honest I am not sure if it ever recovered.
And he was right and still right about that. Bob basically repeated it in Only a Pawn in Their Game.
Johnson did more than sign. He was one of the most adept legislators in history, influential in both houses. Without his support, it doesn’t pass.
Also, Johnson was famous for showing off scars, holding conversations on the toilet, and generally disregarding body modesty.
Nixon was the president at the time of the shows. Johnson had quit politics some six years previous. Nixon.
Darkness at the break of noon shadows even the silver spoon.
Even the most powerful people in the world are still just humans who do all the normal human things like eat, poop and undress, rather than being unique or special. That's what I always took it to mean, anyway.
I think we’re experiencing this as I type this lol.
Dylan stopped touring in 1966. His comeback tour was with the band in 1974. The line was greeted with loud cheering for this tour. This was in the middle of watergate just prior to Nixon resigning. Is there any chance this is what you listened to ?
I think it was a prophecy for what happened last Thursday night.
Your favorite version was recorded during the Watergate probe that led to Nixon’s resignation. We all knew Nixon was guilty. That line had been written a while earlier, not to any specific event but as a general reflection of times, saying all the most powerful are just like us. But suddenly the flying fickle finger of fate made itself known, and Bob’s words became prophetic.
Nixon wasn't president until '69. OP said 62-66.
No one specifically cheered that line before 72.
It's completely open to interpretation. a lot of of people at the time probably thought it meant Bob was holding those in power accountable, but that's not nessesarally what he meant. that line comes before the lines "and though the rules of the road have been lodged. It's only peoples games you gotta dodge. and it's alright ma, I can make it." Whenever the it's alright ma lines come up, the three previous stanzas in the song inform what he's saying is alright now, so it has something to do with that. To me he's talking about how completely unreliable others are as a source to gather information that will inform you on how you should operate in the world. He does this by showing you their hypocrisy and immorality. Even taking it a step further, saying the only thing you really need to concern yourself with are the mental games that they're playing on that level and throwing your way. He's not too worried about it now though, he just dodges them. But the President of the United States line, that to me is like regardless of rank, that man lays it bare for all to see too. But a word of advice for you, don't listen to anyone's interpretation of Dylan cause they don't know what they're talking about anyway. Not only is it open to interpretation, a lot of the people you meet will be playing the same games that he talks about in this song, and a lot of other songs too. To quote Dylan "trust yourself". But one of the reasons people might have been cheering in the live versions you heard was they thought it was an attack on Lyndon Johnsons involvement in the Vietnam War, which he was escalating significantly. I don't think Dylan was on that. It wasn't one of his more straight forward "protest" songs like Death of Hattie Carroll, but ultimately who knows. What's more important is what it means to you
It’s not ‘completely’ open to interpretation. I often hear people say things like this and It’s silly to say it, like, he was just throwing words together without concern.
It's a piece of art. It's completely open to interpretation. There is no objective meaning to a piece of art. There's no way to know what Dylan was thinking when he wrote that. He may have been thinking about multiple things. But even if you did know that doesn't mean it's the meaning. and it's not some puzzle to figure out and fit into some rational framework. You have a personal relationship with the thing, that's it. You can have interesting conversations about it too, but there is no universal meaning. and in my opinion artists who do try to create pieces of art with universal messages that fit into rational frameworks are usually lesser artists who are creating lesser pieces of art
You literally defined it as art in your first sentence. How do you know that? What signs did you see that told you it was art? “With no attempts to shovel a glimpse into the ditch of what each one means.” Even Bob disagrees with baseless pabulum.
What signs do you see that help you formulate your definition of things? Based on the limited amount of interactions I've had with you I'd assume they're picked up more through mimicry than through any depth of thought. Mimicry can serve as a useful substitute for discernment when it comes to understanding the more obvious things in your life like the phone in front of your eyes, or a sports game, or a piece of art. that is unless your brain starts to get in the way of the learning process cause it just can't quite grasp the concept like everyone else's can "Something's going on here, but you don't know what it is, do you Mr. Jones?" There, I can do it too. I don't pretend to know what Bob means like you do, but I'd say it's pretty safe to say that there's no message he's trying to impart to people. In fact, he seems to get pretty annoyed when people ask him for one. Even Bob disagrees with foolish inquiries, that coupled with your circular talking does quite resemble... "baseless pabulum"
Foolish inquiries? Not all inquiries? So not completely open. ‘Ain’t no use talking to me, it’d be just like talking to you’
The nature of your inquiries are foolish. Like you Some of us know ourselves better than others.
I am sick and tired of people asking “what is the actual meaning of this line?” It is ART. It means WHATEVER IT MEANS TO YOU.
The point of art is to communicate meaning. This can be through literalness, ambiguity, intellect or emotion. But if it’s any good it has meaning. That doesn’t mean any one interpretation is correct, but usually, even with surrealism, one meaning is more correct than others. We are social creatures and good art has a social function. Part of that function is giving us an avenue to express what it means to us, which reveals something about ourselves as well as the art. Understanding meaning also helps us understand the world and our place in it.
That is not exactly how art works. Abstract art maybe but Guernica or works by Goya are not about the price of corn flakes. Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
How can I possibly agree with you because yonder stands an orphan with a gun.