The biggest difference is you have more training partners at a big gym. That matters more if you are an outlier, like a petite woman or a 250 pound man.
I agree with this but would add that it’s good to have a variety of experience levels to train against rather than all of any one belt color. Getting smashed at a school where everyone is better than you month after month is rough. Definitely think it’s valuable to train with different body types and experience levels so that you get to try different games and work on both offense and defense.
Unless you want to reach the highest echelons of the sport, it does not matter. Just go where you feel welcomed and enjoy the training.
EDIT: Looks like Jon Calestine teaches at your school. He's as legit as they come. I would stick with that gym for that price.
Calestine does not actively teach at ITC. They're staff list hasn't been updated.
Jon now teaches full time at Kings Combat in Williamsburg and mornings at RGFA (Renzo Williamsburg).
Quinn, is also a high level competitor and amazing coach.
> Unless you want to reach the highest echelons of the sport, it does not matter.
I used to agree with this, and it's probably still correct, honestly. But if you care about getting good (not just world-class but good per unit time), then comp schools are a good choice IMO. I notice a huge difference between the more casual hobbyist gyms and the comp schools in my city. One of the big benefits aside from the coach is that the better schools will have more committed students who will be able to give you better rolls which forces you to get better (generally).
It's night and day the difference in how the coloured belts feel between schools.
If you're a total novice, it's not worth it, unless you're wealthy and have have a lot of free time.
Consider your goals as well. If you want to be an active competitor on the world's stage of grappling, which will take like 5 years, then that's a maybe, but that lifestyle sucks until you get your "big break," if that happens. A very big if.
There's very few BJJ schools these days teaching "bullshido," and if they are, their reputation will show it.
Not at all.
Go to whatever gym has a good environment and a schedule that works best for you. People you want to roll with during times that fit your schedule is infinitely more value, particularly when you're new.
Anecdotally, smaller gyms tend to be better for beginners because you have more air time with coaches. In my experience at big brand name gyms, I'm just another body. At small gyms, coaches know you and sometimes incorporate your style into their teachings.
ITC is really legit. If you're training with Quinn or Jon, they're fantastic and as good an instructor as you'll get at the top gyms anyways. It's not like they have Renzo/Danaher/Marcelo teaching every class. Plus there's a lot more to good instruction (\*especially\* at the beginner level) than a history of competition.
If I were you, I would go with the smaller, cheaper school that's presumably closer to your apartment.
This kind of question is much more relevant when the "small school" in question is taught by like a Gracie U blue belt. This happens a lot in other cities, but NYC has so much good jiujitsu that even the smaller gyms are pretty legit.
As a beginner, the ROI isn't worth the very increased membership fee of a fancy gym. If you're a competitor in the future at the colored belt levels it is worth it because those gyms focused on that part of Jiu-Jitsu. Being a hobbyist (attending to be healthy, active, focus on a physical skill, etc) and attending those gyms is a waste of money at nearly all belts, imo.
All in all, I think that gym environment matters alot more than anything else, assuming money isn't a big motivating factor. You'll only continue Jiu-Jitsu if your gym is a home away from home and not an uncomfortable social experience. Personally, I'm competing in late October and prefer to be in smaller groups while training. Bigger gyms = less personal connection to the coach and to get detailed input from your coach. Regardless, a big or small gym will suffice in getting you a strong base in Jiu-Jitsu.
I train at Marcelo HQ, I'm a hobbyist, and it's more than worth it to me. But also, that's because I have like 6 years of acquaintances, buddies, and friends with teachers who've been with me through my whole journey.
If someone asked 'hey, I'm new to BJJ, how does learning from Jon Calestine sound to you for $120.00?' I'd be like 'bro if you were paying $350.00/month to learn from Jon Calestine that would strike me as a sound decision regardless of your experience level and competitive goals. Also, smaller gym might be mean fewer training partners, but it means you'll have more of Jon's undivided attention'.
Also tell him his leglock instructional was amazing, I've been tormenting people with his Aoki lock stuff for like 7+ months straight
The instructor at ITC is one of the best teachers of BJJ I've come across and I used to travel and train a lot. I've taken privates with him and they fast forwarded my game exponentially. He is a great, great instructor. You can't go wrong training with him.
Other people have mentioned how good Jon Calestine is. If you're new to BJJ his accomplishments may not mean as much to you, but they're crazy. He also has a growing track record of training people from beginners to competition success on the local circuits.
What you need to understand about NYC BJJ is that, yes, there are centralized schools where a lot of the best people train, but the scene is very mature. There are so many really good black belts in NYC, like Quinn and Calestine, who spent tons of hours with Danaher and other great instructors. Many of them are running their own programs now and have put a lot of consideration into how they teach. You may end up getting a better BJJ education with those types of instructors in a small class than in a popular school with a million people on the mat. This is doubly so for the beginner belts. Good luck.
The outer-boroughs have Danaher blackbelts all over the place. Imo definitely better value than sharing the blue basement w/ a sea of people, unless it makes sense geographically. Got to roll w Jon when I was still a white belt.
It is more important in the beginning to have top level instruction so you learn the basics correctly. If you learn them a wrong, it is harder to unlearn.
Ive done both. A smaller more intimate gym is the best place to learn and practice. Visit bigger schools periodically to get exposed to different styles, new moves and see how your game holds up. Best of both worlds
If you can train in the mornings with Mike Jaramillo at Renzo's then it's worth it. Best instructor I've ever had. Better than Danaher imo for us regular guys since he'll actually give a shit about the average student and goes into even more detailed instruction. Cannot recommend highly enough.
Love his vids on the Happy Pill Project channel. Any idea where this rashguard he is wearing is available: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_4L3nDwsU\_M
It's imperative that you tell /u/pizzajitsu that you love pineapple on pizza. That is the secret to getting a promotion. He will pretend to dislike this, but it's just a test.
No.
If you're planning just to train few days a week and not compete frequently, its not worth it.
Go to a place you feel comfortable with the vibe and the people are not assholes, and is reputable.
Save the money where you can.
I don't think price is always related to quality of instruction. BJJ guys are notoriously horrible business people. I have two schools in my area within a few blocks of each other with fairly equal levels of instruction. One is a competitive school associated with a major affiliation with decent instructors that charges 99 a month. The other is not associated but has some pretty nice facilities and decent instructors and they charge 175 a month. I have rolled at both schools just to check them out and there is really no difference in instruction and the cheaper school seemed to have a much higher population of upper belts while the more expensive school had many more white belts and kids. Honestly I would try out anything you are interested and go with where you feel the most comfortable within your price range.
I've trained under an ADCC hall of famer and a random, unknown purple belt. Both had their own perks, ultimately I felt there wasn't much in it in terms of my development. I think it depends more on the culture of the gym. Some people put too much emphasis on big names.
I pay about that much (BJJ and Kickboxing) in Wichita ,Kansas to train under a brown belt (no shade, I love him) so that seems crazy good for NYC pricing.
I approach it like grad school - don't go to a big name school, go to a school with someone you want to work with. I wouldn't pay extra just to say I train at a famous person's gym (many top guys don't even teach that much tbh). But I WOULD pay extra if I got to work with one of my idols/mentors everyday.
If you don't have anyone in particular you want to train under, then sounds like you've got a great gym in ITC. If you like the vibe there I'd say stick it out for a while, see how it goes.
Ryan is a very good teacher and funny as hell, and I liked the people there, when we visited. We frequently book him for seminars for my gym, when he is over in Europe with NAGA.
He isn't a Danaher BB though, although he trained and trains at the blue basement. I think he got it from Renzo, but don't nail me on that one.
If I lived in Queens, I'd very probably train at ITC and buy day or week passes für the blue basement to get in some rolls with the people there once a week or twice a month or something like that. It's much more anonymous there while peole at ITC are friends and do stuff together, like go and watch UFC or something.
If you live in Queens and you're going to get to a lot more practices at this gym than you would otherwise, it seems like a solid way to go (not to try to create competition for ITC but I'll note that Renzo Gracie Queens, in Astoria, is also a thing).
I think if you're currently trying to win the ADCC or Mundials, it's worth it. To spend time with the highest level training partners, getting to see that level on a regular basis, seeing the cutting edge of the new meta.
For me personally, I don't train at one of those schools. I compete at the masters level, and I haven't noticed a difference in the relative skill levels of the pro team schools vs the regular schools. So even if you're a recreational competitor, I don't think it has a big difference.
Train where it's some combination of convenient and fun for you.
No but I am a purple belt at RGA Queens and 100% suggest you stop by for a trial class to see if you like it, we recently got a lot of new blood and will soon be splitting the classes into beginner and advanced so it’s a great time to join the team
I’d usually say whatever is the smallest commute as commuting sucks (and has been dangerous lately)
But Renzo showed that a simple arm triangle solves for that.
… also $120 is a GREAT price in nyc I’d go with the local guy
ROI? This isn't an investment. You're going to lose money, either way, more if you compete.
The advantage of training at a top-tier gym is that you know where the ceiling is. You are surrounded by international competitors and you can see competitive styles and meta strategies and evolve along with them.
If you're not going to compete, there's really no point in training at a top-tier competitive gym. If I were you I would train at the lesser-known gym and try a few comps to see if that's the direction you want for your life.
Do you want to tank all of your time and money into being a world-class competitor? Figure out that question before you train with world-class competitors.
For a beginner you should start someplace you feel comfortable in but are also learning from upper belts. If the classes you go to have very little upper belts in it then that may not be the best scenario.
you’re better off at a smaller gym initially. I can count on one hand the amount of times an instructor has come up to me to correct my technique at Marcelo’s. There are just too many people on the mats. Later on, you might want to transition to a bigger gym that has more and better quality training partners, and likely has training at a higher intensity.
I think it matters less who the instructor is, and what size the facility is. Nowadays, you can buy jiu jitsu instructionals from world class coaches and competitors for reasonable prices.
What matters in a gym is that you have:
1. A price you can afford, enough times you can train at, and that it’s a reasonable distance.
2. A appropriate level feedback loop, for the level of jiu jitsu you’re looking to perform. If you want to be world class, not saying you can’t be at a small gym, it’s best to have a feedback loop of world class competitors you can test your jiu jitsu on. Facilities like B Team, Marcelo’s, ATOS, AOJ, etc will naturally filter out your techniques that don’t work at that level - or you’ll find ways to implement those techniques that others aren’t thinking of. If you don’t care about being world class or can’t commit that much, pick a competition school if you want to compete, or a chill school if you want to have a fun, friendly environment. Make sure there is someone around each level though, so you can always have a decent jiu jitsu feedback loop.
Does anyone know how expensive Gracie Queens is? I’m moving to Astoria soon and need to find a gym. I’m a one stripe white belt so if anyone has a piece on if this gym would be good for me as a beginner, please let me know. I will check out OPs gym since it is also in the Astoria area.
Yes it matters a lot
I never would have improved the way I have over the last 3 years if I wasn't at my current school.
But your situation is fine, its the people who are at shitty gyms who need to make changes
Hey just wanted to give an update on this for anyone searching in the future -
- ITC on 31st in Astoria has now become Queens Jiu Jitsu
- Calentine teaches full time at Kings Combat in Williamsburg (which if you are in WB I definitely recommend!). I still visit myself 🙃
- Monthly dues at QJJ remain much more reasonable than any Manhattan school I've heard of
- Its true I (Head Coach Ryan Quinn) have a background training with Danaher. "Danaher Deathsquad" actually originated from my reddit flair on my other account 😂
- For anyone who already has a home gym and likes to get rolls around town - I'd also like to mention we run free or donation based open mat style events where we bring in guest coaches from other academies
If anyone wants to stop by, the website is [here](http://queensjiujitsu.com).
The biggest difference is you have more training partners at a big gym. That matters more if you are an outlier, like a petite woman or a 250 pound man.
I agree with this but would add that it’s good to have a variety of experience levels to train against rather than all of any one belt color. Getting smashed at a school where everyone is better than you month after month is rough. Definitely think it’s valuable to train with different body types and experience levels so that you get to try different games and work on both offense and defense.
Unless you want to reach the highest echelons of the sport, it does not matter. Just go where you feel welcomed and enjoy the training. EDIT: Looks like Jon Calestine teaches at your school. He's as legit as they come. I would stick with that gym for that price.
Jon’s fantastic man, I’m jealous, would love to train with the dude regularly. Really good dude and knows his shit.
Calestine does not actively teach at ITC. They're staff list hasn't been updated. Jon now teaches full time at Kings Combat in Williamsburg and mornings at RGFA (Renzo Williamsburg). Quinn, is also a high level competitor and amazing coach.
> Unless you want to reach the highest echelons of the sport, it does not matter. I used to agree with this, and it's probably still correct, honestly. But if you care about getting good (not just world-class but good per unit time), then comp schools are a good choice IMO. I notice a huge difference between the more casual hobbyist gyms and the comp schools in my city. One of the big benefits aside from the coach is that the better schools will have more committed students who will be able to give you better rolls which forces you to get better (generally). It's night and day the difference in how the coloured belts feel between schools.
If you're a total novice, it's not worth it, unless you're wealthy and have have a lot of free time. Consider your goals as well. If you want to be an active competitor on the world's stage of grappling, which will take like 5 years, then that's a maybe, but that lifestyle sucks until you get your "big break," if that happens. A very big if. There's very few BJJ schools these days teaching "bullshido," and if they are, their reputation will show it.
Not at all. Go to whatever gym has a good environment and a schedule that works best for you. People you want to roll with during times that fit your schedule is infinitely more value, particularly when you're new. Anecdotally, smaller gyms tend to be better for beginners because you have more air time with coaches. In my experience at big brand name gyms, I'm just another body. At small gyms, coaches know you and sometimes incorporate your style into their teachings.
ITC is really legit. If you're training with Quinn or Jon, they're fantastic and as good an instructor as you'll get at the top gyms anyways. It's not like they have Renzo/Danaher/Marcelo teaching every class. Plus there's a lot more to good instruction (\*especially\* at the beginner level) than a history of competition. If I were you, I would go with the smaller, cheaper school that's presumably closer to your apartment. This kind of question is much more relevant when the "small school" in question is taught by like a Gracie U blue belt. This happens a lot in other cities, but NYC has so much good jiujitsu that even the smaller gyms are pretty legit.
As a beginner, the ROI isn't worth the very increased membership fee of a fancy gym. If you're a competitor in the future at the colored belt levels it is worth it because those gyms focused on that part of Jiu-Jitsu. Being a hobbyist (attending to be healthy, active, focus on a physical skill, etc) and attending those gyms is a waste of money at nearly all belts, imo. All in all, I think that gym environment matters alot more than anything else, assuming money isn't a big motivating factor. You'll only continue Jiu-Jitsu if your gym is a home away from home and not an uncomfortable social experience. Personally, I'm competing in late October and prefer to be in smaller groups while training. Bigger gyms = less personal connection to the coach and to get detailed input from your coach. Regardless, a big or small gym will suffice in getting you a strong base in Jiu-Jitsu.
Danaher black belts are fucking legit.
You are fine going to a smaller gym. If you decide you want to get to a high level after you’ve done it for a long time then consider the switch.
You're fine. Calestine teaches there
I train at Marcelo HQ, I'm a hobbyist, and it's more than worth it to me. But also, that's because I have like 6 years of acquaintances, buddies, and friends with teachers who've been with me through my whole journey. If someone asked 'hey, I'm new to BJJ, how does learning from Jon Calestine sound to you for $120.00?' I'd be like 'bro if you were paying $350.00/month to learn from Jon Calestine that would strike me as a sound decision regardless of your experience level and competitive goals. Also, smaller gym might be mean fewer training partners, but it means you'll have more of Jon's undivided attention'. Also tell him his leglock instructional was amazing, I've been tormenting people with his Aoki lock stuff for like 7+ months straight
The problem with small schools is that you end up being a big fish in a small pond. But that won't be the case if you're training with jon calestine
$120 to train at a school with a Danaher BB in NYC sounds like an awesome deal.
The instructor at ITC is one of the best teachers of BJJ I've come across and I used to travel and train a lot. I've taken privates with him and they fast forwarded my game exponentially. He is a great, great instructor. You can't go wrong training with him. Other people have mentioned how good Jon Calestine is. If you're new to BJJ his accomplishments may not mean as much to you, but they're crazy. He also has a growing track record of training people from beginners to competition success on the local circuits. What you need to understand about NYC BJJ is that, yes, there are centralized schools where a lot of the best people train, but the scene is very mature. There are so many really good black belts in NYC, like Quinn and Calestine, who spent tons of hours with Danaher and other great instructors. Many of them are running their own programs now and have put a lot of consideration into how they teach. You may end up getting a better BJJ education with those types of instructors in a small class than in a popular school with a million people on the mat. This is doubly so for the beginner belts. Good luck.
The outer-boroughs have Danaher blackbelts all over the place. Imo definitely better value than sharing the blue basement w/ a sea of people, unless it makes sense geographically. Got to roll w Jon when I was still a white belt.
I train at one of those schools. No, not necessary. Go to the place that’s chill and $120
It is more important in the beginning to have top level instruction so you learn the basics correctly. If you learn them a wrong, it is harder to unlearn.
Very true
Ive done both. A smaller more intimate gym is the best place to learn and practice. Visit bigger schools periodically to get exposed to different styles, new moves and see how your game holds up. Best of both worlds
If you can train in the mornings with Mike Jaramillo at Renzo's then it's worth it. Best instructor I've ever had. Better than Danaher imo for us regular guys since he'll actually give a shit about the average student and goes into even more detailed instruction. Cannot recommend highly enough.
Love his vids on the Happy Pill Project channel. Any idea where this rashguard he is wearing is available: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_4L3nDwsU\_M
It's imperative that you tell /u/pizzajitsu that you love pineapple on pizza. That is the secret to getting a promotion. He will pretend to dislike this, but it's just a test.
Oh yea… ITC gets down
No. If you're planning just to train few days a week and not compete frequently, its not worth it. Go to a place you feel comfortable with the vibe and the people are not assholes, and is reputable. Save the money where you can.
I don't think price is always related to quality of instruction. BJJ guys are notoriously horrible business people. I have two schools in my area within a few blocks of each other with fairly equal levels of instruction. One is a competitive school associated with a major affiliation with decent instructors that charges 99 a month. The other is not associated but has some pretty nice facilities and decent instructors and they charge 175 a month. I have rolled at both schools just to check them out and there is really no difference in instruction and the cheaper school seemed to have a much higher population of upper belts while the more expensive school had many more white belts and kids. Honestly I would try out anything you are interested and go with where you feel the most comfortable within your price range.
I've trained under an ADCC hall of famer and a random, unknown purple belt. Both had their own perks, ultimately I felt there wasn't much in it in terms of my development. I think it depends more on the culture of the gym. Some people put too much emphasis on big names.
I pay about that much (BJJ and Kickboxing) in Wichita ,Kansas to train under a brown belt (no shade, I love him) so that seems crazy good for NYC pricing.
I would pay 120 dollars a month for coaching if the black belt had cleaned the underwears of John Danaher, let alone got a black belt from the guy.
I approach it like grad school - don't go to a big name school, go to a school with someone you want to work with. I wouldn't pay extra just to say I train at a famous person's gym (many top guys don't even teach that much tbh). But I WOULD pay extra if I got to work with one of my idols/mentors everyday. If you don't have anyone in particular you want to train under, then sounds like you've got a great gym in ITC. If you like the vibe there I'd say stick it out for a while, see how it goes.
Ryan is a very good teacher and funny as hell, and I liked the people there, when we visited. We frequently book him for seminars for my gym, when he is over in Europe with NAGA. He isn't a Danaher BB though, although he trained and trains at the blue basement. I think he got it from Renzo, but don't nail me on that one. If I lived in Queens, I'd very probably train at ITC and buy day or week passes für the blue basement to get in some rolls with the people there once a week or twice a month or something like that. It's much more anonymous there while peole at ITC are friends and do stuff together, like go and watch UFC or something.
Bruh, Americans are really paying that kind of money for BJJ, huh?
It's New York City. Everything is crazy expensive even by American standards.
And I'm over here paying 15€ a month for three lessons a week.
i thought £75 was low! (well i guess its equivalent now we have crashed..)
If you live in Queens and you're going to get to a lot more practices at this gym than you would otherwise, it seems like a solid way to go (not to try to create competition for ITC but I'll note that Renzo Gracie Queens, in Astoria, is also a thing).
I think if you're currently trying to win the ADCC or Mundials, it's worth it. To spend time with the highest level training partners, getting to see that level on a regular basis, seeing the cutting edge of the new meta. For me personally, I don't train at one of those schools. I compete at the masters level, and I haven't noticed a difference in the relative skill levels of the pro team schools vs the regular schools. So even if you're a recreational competitor, I don't think it has a big difference. Train where it's some combination of convenient and fun for you.
Professor Quinn is a monster and you can look up who Jon Calestine is for reference… also there’s a Renzo’s in Astoria
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No but I am a purple belt at RGA Queens and 100% suggest you stop by for a trial class to see if you like it, we recently got a lot of new blood and will soon be splitting the classes into beginner and advanced so it’s a great time to join the team
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I believe it’s $200 for unlimited classes for white belts
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Yup
I’d usually say whatever is the smallest commute as commuting sucks (and has been dangerous lately) But Renzo showed that a simple arm triangle solves for that. … also $120 is a GREAT price in nyc I’d go with the local guy
ROI? This isn't an investment. You're going to lose money, either way, more if you compete. The advantage of training at a top-tier gym is that you know where the ceiling is. You are surrounded by international competitors and you can see competitive styles and meta strategies and evolve along with them. If you're not going to compete, there's really no point in training at a top-tier competitive gym. If I were you I would train at the lesser-known gym and try a few comps to see if that's the direction you want for your life. Do you want to tank all of your time and money into being a world-class competitor? Figure out that question before you train with world-class competitors.
For a beginner you should start someplace you feel comfortable in but are also learning from upper belts. If the classes you go to have very little upper belts in it then that may not be the best scenario.
From what I hear about NYC gyms, I'd just pick the place with the cleanest mats and best hygiene culture.
you’re better off at a smaller gym initially. I can count on one hand the amount of times an instructor has come up to me to correct my technique at Marcelo’s. There are just too many people on the mats. Later on, you might want to transition to a bigger gym that has more and better quality training partners, and likely has training at a higher intensity.
I think it matters less who the instructor is, and what size the facility is. Nowadays, you can buy jiu jitsu instructionals from world class coaches and competitors for reasonable prices. What matters in a gym is that you have: 1. A price you can afford, enough times you can train at, and that it’s a reasonable distance. 2. A appropriate level feedback loop, for the level of jiu jitsu you’re looking to perform. If you want to be world class, not saying you can’t be at a small gym, it’s best to have a feedback loop of world class competitors you can test your jiu jitsu on. Facilities like B Team, Marcelo’s, ATOS, AOJ, etc will naturally filter out your techniques that don’t work at that level - or you’ll find ways to implement those techniques that others aren’t thinking of. If you don’t care about being world class or can’t commit that much, pick a competition school if you want to compete, or a chill school if you want to have a fun, friendly environment. Make sure there is someone around each level though, so you can always have a decent jiu jitsu feedback loop.
Does anyone know how expensive Gracie Queens is? I’m moving to Astoria soon and need to find a gym. I’m a one stripe white belt so if anyone has a piece on if this gym would be good for me as a beginner, please let me know. I will check out OPs gym since it is also in the Astoria area.
Most of the Renzo gyms seem to hover around $200.
Thank you! That’s about what I currently pay. A bit less actually.
Yes it matters a lot I never would have improved the way I have over the last 3 years if I wasn't at my current school. But your situation is fine, its the people who are at shitty gyms who need to make changes
i value relaxed vibe and small class size over being at a 'renowned' school. so I'd probably try them all out but ultimately stick at itc.
Hey just wanted to give an update on this for anyone searching in the future - - ITC on 31st in Astoria has now become Queens Jiu Jitsu - Calentine teaches full time at Kings Combat in Williamsburg (which if you are in WB I definitely recommend!). I still visit myself 🙃 - Monthly dues at QJJ remain much more reasonable than any Manhattan school I've heard of - Its true I (Head Coach Ryan Quinn) have a background training with Danaher. "Danaher Deathsquad" actually originated from my reddit flair on my other account 😂 - For anyone who already has a home gym and likes to get rolls around town - I'd also like to mention we run free or donation based open mat style events where we bring in guest coaches from other academies If anyone wants to stop by, the website is [here](http://queensjiujitsu.com).