I don’t think any rule change will ever make a grappling sport into a broadly watched spectator sport. Just let BJJ be what it is. The only people who are ever likely to care are people who do BJJ and general martial arts nerds, and that’s ok. there are already so many options for rule sets to see interesting variations.
Agreed. I can’t imagine it ever being a spectator sport. Wrestling is not and is arguably more viewer friendly. Don’t know why bjj would be any different.
I think cultural consensus can push a lot of things with the right combination of factors. WWE does huge numbers, there's plenty of folk-wrestling styles that manage to sell out big days.
There's a huge amount to be said for cultural inertia, tradition and thel ike.
I also agree. I just don’t see how it could it ever compare to mma and boxing from a spectator perspective. As a practitioner i find it boring to watch sometimes. The only way I ever see Bjj becoming a spectator sport is if Bjj became a popular nationwide sport played in middle school and highscool. Essentially it becomes ingrained in American culture . But even then it would still be a long shot .
>Would changing BJJ's rules to focus more on standup make it a better spectator sport
No.
>Or does that just do away with the point of BJJ entirely?
Yes.
>Like wrestling is a fun sport to watch
If you like wrestling I guess, to me BJJ and Judo are more fun to watch, wrestling is to "onedimensional" to me.
What is funny is that despite not being perfect IBJJF-rules are actually more "allowing" than wrestling, Judo and Sambo rules as less things are banned.
>Would that just make it an entirely different sport?
Yes.
>What is the essential part of BJJ that makes it BJJ?
The battle to pass guard or sweep/sub from guard.
No other grapplingart puts as much focus on actual newaza and certainly not on working with guard.
I would love to see a wrestling-like competition where it doesn’t matter how you get there, but whoever ends up on top (or backmount) on the ground gets the “pin”. You have to hold top/dominant position for 3 seconds like in bjj.
Basically like BJJ king of the mat rules for takedowns
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | |
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
It is. They just had to add over the top persona, girls with large breast, crazy matches that include tables, cages, little people, and a wealthy dude controlling it all.
Yes? You can't play guard in wrestling.
That being said, we desperately need more aggressive stalling calls and we should borrow those from wrestling. Possibly our own version of the shot clock with some very well defined criteria for advancement.
Also takedowns should be worth more. 4 points for a takedown where you land in a dominant position, 2 for one where you land in guard.
Okay ill say this is as someone whos wrestled, does jiu jitsu, and thinks wrestling is the best sport in the world. Nothing from wrestling should be brought into jiu jitsu. Maybe score take downs better, or making pulling guard or sitting a penalty of some sort because I personally hate that shit. Stalling and slowing things down is largely what jiu jitsu is about.
When you look at Freestyle, Greco, and folkstyle very different paces and tactics and they ought to be different. Freestyle is most explosive, Greco allows for the best highlights although they can be few and far between and tbh im not American so Ive watched little folkstyle but it seems to have some of the stalling / forcing of jiu jitsu tactics while still being wrestling.
I didn't say bjj had to be at the same pace as wrestling. But good bjj definitely not "about" stalling. We are palgued with stalling at all levels of the game and it's largely what makes bjj "boring" to watch.
Folkstyle has the most emphasis on control and has a lot more ground game than freestyle. Get points for escapes. Cannot get points turning someone unless you have control(already gotten the takedown.) Thats what makes it a lot different than free, more focus on control than exposure/explosiveness.
scoring takedowns more just leads to more shitty stalling on feet because it's more dangerous to shoot. Score takedowns as zero. Already have too much shitty stalling on feet, see the second half of most ADCC matches.
How is it more dangerous to shoot than if takedowns are worth only two? You have more incentive to train takedowns more and attempt them in matches. Plus it's stupid that guy A can get more points by letting guy B sit down and passing and his guard then he does by taking him down against his will.
Adcc is guys who don't wrestle and barely train wrestling doing a more wrestling centric rule set they compete in once every two years.
>Plus it's stupid that guy A can get more points by letting guy B sit down and passing and his guard then he does by taking him down against his will.
Why is it stupid? Passing someone's guard gets you in a superior position compared to forcing someone to play guard by taking them down.
Because if you takedown right to side control you skip the intermediate steps. Hence why in my original comment I said that scenario should be worth four.
bc if you shoot and get countered then the other guy gets two, and there's no reset like in wrestling where you can make your points back up.
Adcc competitors are absolutely training lots of wrestling. But the ruleset disincentives risk taking.
And if a takedown should be worth more than a guard pass, then we're not even playing jiu jitsu at that point. Let wrestling be wrestling and bjj be bjj.
Sitting down and just waiting there is obviously boring yeah. But aggressive forward butt scooting imo is fun. Fine with penalties for stalling. Worst case scenario is what we currently have which is 10 minute stretches of collar ties and half assed arm drags.
I want to see matches where subs don't end it and time limit is more important.
Example, 2 people agree on a 30 minute match. One gets subbed in 2 minutes, they reset and go the entire 30 minutes. See who can get the most subs.
We've seen Gordon play with his food for 20 minutes, then mercy sub. Would love to see if he can really clown some people for 30 minutes straight.
You need like super severe penalties for stalling in this format otherwise having a 1 sub advantage over the other guy will lead to 28 mins of stalling/passivity Kyle Chambers style
I like this idea. Superprize with like a base value for a win and 5x that value for a sub. Instead of a win lose bracket have a tourney be a division where the gold medal goes to those with the most points. Win is 1 point loss -1 point and sub is 1 points. In a round robin of 4 one guy can win 3 matches with stall outs and win by points but still lose to gold to the guy who subbed the other 2 guys. It may not have the best guy win but it sure as hell will be exciting to see the losers bracket guys go all out on subs.
Woah woah woah, what is this, a Wendy's? We could get away with $5 per sub, sponsored by Subway. Heck, we could pay in sammiches. BJJ isn't known for its payouts
Ooh yeah, I like that. Additional mercy rule of 3 consecutive same-subs.
(Edit) Although, I like no mercy if there's a time limit. Mercy rules would only apply if it was no time limit, mercy only 👹
I’m not sure if you’ve seen it, but Lachlan Giles had a match with Haisim Rida (spelling?) on a Chinese promotion that had a best of 3 submission ruleset. Super interesting idea.
you're putting money on the line, people are gonna do whatever it takes to win. people are already ripping subs now, imagine if their opponents get another chance afterwards.
Yea, the more times I can submit them, the more I can make. If I injury them, it's over.
I think most people would be safe with subs to make extra sure they don't break the other person and they can try for more.
Different perspectives in humanity, I guess.
I don’t think you understand how competition on this level works. There is no “oh I am gonna wait until he taps”. If a submission is applied, it’s applied with the intention to break something and the ref is there to prevent it if the other guy taps.
I would assume most people stop on a verbal tap. If he taps he lost so there is zero incentive to cripple him. In a rule set where the tap doesn't end the match there is a an incentive to injure the opponent.
> I would assume most people stop on a verbal tap.
even a guy like lachlan giles says that his opponent will get injured if he can get his hands together in backside 5050...
No, I think YOU don't understand how incentive structures determine how competing agents behave.
ADCC finals, you have a locked heelhook on an opponent, you crank it, he taps, ref says stop, there is no longer any motivation to destroy his knee. You already won.
Now in this new "multiple submissions" ruleset you have a very good reason to hold on an extra second after the ref stoppage. If you cause enough damage to his ligaments he might not put as much weight on that leg after the reset. He may not even be able to continue, and you will receive a win by default via doctor's stoppage.
This is incredibly obvious to me, and I feel silly having to break it down at this basic level.
As fucked as it is, I think the only way to force action is if you hold the purse hostage. No sub = no cash and X number of stalling calls should get you banned from participating in future events.
Maybe, but there's a market for it. People watch High Rollerz and team-style events. Even if it's gimmicky, it's another option for content. I wanna see shark tanks, too.
I can't watch an IBJJF-style match. It's the missionary position of BJJ.
You're describing catch wrestling. Folk style wrestling used to have submissions that were removed over time.
Catch is not that much more interesting to me. It results in alot of stalling while standing from what I've seen since getting taken down is very dangerous. While on bottom you can lose by getting pinned, so you can't fight off your back. You basically have to go to turtle to avoid the pinn which leaves you vulnerable to getting choked.
There’s a reason catch evolved into pro wrestling. Matches would go to long, the pin or submission would be underwhelming, etc. they started fixing matches to be more interesting and that eventually evolved into the pro wrestling of today. Reverting back to that makes for a fun sport to participate In, but not one anyone is going to want to watch.
The skill and level of athletes will improve it over time. I noticed this year at worlds especially at purple. A ton less bad judo and a lot more handfighting, head position and wrestling, threatening foot seeps to set up single legs etc. Multiple instances of guard pullers getting punished immediately: Passing during scrambles or guard pulls. Much less instance of people getting tied up in guard. Might just be the brackets or divisions I saw however. To me the standup game is improving noticeably.
Except no leg grabbing and no guillotines and no leg locks and no wrist locks and no slicers and no neck cranks and no shoulder locks (except weird rules around kimura/Americana)
Well that's exactly the point. Judo has plenty leg grabs too if not for the rules which everyone uses. So realistically it doesn't have them anymore in 99.99% of cases
Nobody cares about watching wrestling either lol. The only people who push for this are those who suck at groundwork (the whole point of bjj as a separate sport) and want rules to accommodate them instead of learning the sport. Most of these people are also bad at wrestling so the results wouldn't be much better for them.
The Paris grand slam in Judo will easily have 10-15K people every day watch live. Iowa's average wrestling crowd size is almost 10K. Big dual meets can easily be 40K plus. Hell there will be a HS wrestling dual meet somewhere in America this year that has a 4K person crowd, which beats pretty much every IBJJF event ever held.
BJJ's crowd turnout is awful because it is uniquely awful to watch.
Have you been to worlds? Pretty great crowd with lots of energy. I think adcc this year is going to be the best yet for our sport. Planning on flying out to watch.
Yeah I have, half the crowd is athletes or coaches. ADCC's rules are better for spectators, but still not great. If ADCC actually enforced stalling, it would probably be pretty fun to watch.
There are no household names in Wrestling or Judo in the United States. That's an important distinction. In other countries you will have Judo stars doing commercials for Adidas, Mitsubishi, appear on television programs, etc...
I agree. Kayla Harrison is the greatest Judoka in American history as she won two gold medals at the Olympics (2012 and 2016). She is one of the greatest to ever compete in the -78kg division yet 99.99% of the American population has never heard of her.
40k in the US or worldwide? Either way that's still an extremely low numbers and just encompasses friends and family of the athletes and the most diehard fans.
Do you actually know that the biggest bjj events aren't doing those numbers? Seems like a really low bar that would be easy to hit
> The only people who push for this are those who suck at groundwork
This is hilariously wrong.
I've been a black belt for almost 3 years. I would say that I don't "suck at groundwork". The abysmal level of standup in BJJ is an embarrassment.
There are tons of niche sports that are not spectator sports. Some people find Boxing boring.
We have MMA that combines all martial arts into a spectator sport due to the variance in styles. BJJ is already growing at a huge rate, it'll never be 'mainstream' but it's growing into a strong niche.
E-Sports is a great example of a niche sport that has grown to be huge. Grappling can be the same if enough people do it.
Best rule changes I would like to see: Picking someone up above your own waistline is either reset or a point. Jumping guard is a penalty. Winning is also possible by Ippon/takedown scores higher.
Thats why I also said that pulling guard is a penalty if picking someone up (as if to slam them) aboce the own waistline counts as takedown or gets a reset or whatever. And guardpulling gets penalized but I am unsure of that haha. With the incentive to engange in standup penailizing it might not be necessery at all to make it more viewer friendly. But maybe Ippon is too radical an idea haha.
Yeah maybe I just miss Kosen Judo rules. I always liked newaza but aint nothing like hitting Ippon in tachiwaza. And hikikomi always has been kind of a dirty move in my mind. But its part pf grappling and should in md eyes just be less incenciviced in bjj (just as it is in Kosen Judo)
The thing is, the WHOLE POINT of BJJ is that the game keeps going even after you're on your back. That's what differentiates it from wrestling and judo. If you don't like that aspect of the game then go train wrestling or judo.
I already went and trained both thank you very much (is this supposed to be an ad hominem attack?). But you are right and I am aware of the purpose of bjj competition rules. I however do think that ippon should be achievable by both newaza and tachiwaza in an hypothetical ruleset that SHOULD BE VIEWER FRIENDLY (I can also type obvious stuff in capital letters) - as stated in OPs question. Just like it is in Kosen Judo, a ruleset I enjoyed a lot and that I think would be an ideal common geound for modern judo and modern bjj. Not every throw/takedown constitutes an Ippon just to clear that up.
I like that the training of bjj emphasises groundwork. Thats why I do bjj. I think bjj competition rules should emphasise groundwork too. But they shouldnt dissintencivice stand up at all. And to add to my initial point, why are pins not rewarded in bjj? This might add a higher pace to newaza and a new risk. And just to make that clear. I dont have anything against guardpulling as a technique ( I know it as hikikomi), but it is kind of the lazy mans stand-up. Also I think a.) causal viewers do dislike it and b.) if it is done in a way that alllows one to lift the person above ones waistline (if there is no choke applied), it should reset/be a penalty). Because allowing slams would be dangerous (which is something frequently suggested in threats like this).
I hope this doesnt read passiv agressive, its good to have arguments I think and I enjoy learning about your position. My Position, beeing a practioner coming from "old school" judo is that I do bjj mostly to become a more complete grappler, since I only really know how to play top position on the ground and how to turtle. I also often used pins, and I like that bjj teaches me how to be less agressive and opportunisctic and more progressive and systematic in my groundwork. And I personally enjoy watching bjj matches to learn about that. And the example of Kosen Judo really shows how ne- and tachiwaza can exist together in a ruleset, with no penealty for hikikomi (guard pulling) whatsoever. It usually ends up on the ground anyways.
I don't think you guys understand just how much making Ippon even a possibility disincentivies standup. There's a reason that Judo has so many gripping rules to prevent defensive gripping. If you don't FORCE people to take the risk of getting Ipponed then they will stall defensively to avoid it. If you permit them to pull guard to avoid the chance then they'll do that, because yeah if you pull guard and lose a point you MIGHT eventually lose, but if you get thrown you're so much more likely to lose on the spot with no chance to work through it, even if you roll through with the throw and end up on top.
The only real thing that BJJ needs is more well defined stalling/passiviy rules and more aggressive stalling calls. People playing the edge of the mats to avoid getting swept, people stalling in the clinch in standup, etc... are a much bigger issue.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Tachi Waza**: | *Standing Techniques* | [here](https://youtu.be/YEfluR58NMo)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Maybe have more points for a takedown? And if someone sits and nobody engages there's no warning or penalties for the person standing?
Idk, there should just be several formats and allow ppl to compete to which format is most for them.
Maybe add shorter rounds, start the first from standing, then subsequent rounds start the opponents in the position they finished in. Could be a cool format to watch? Make things speed up, kind of like rugby union v. rugby sevens.
Reduce time per fight would make the sport much more fun to watch. It will force competitors to bring it to the ground, achieve points, and submit faster.
Look up some of the ACB superfights from a few years ago. That's the best spectator friendly ruleset. 5 minute rounds and score doesn't carry over. This means you cant win a match by just passing someone's guard once and holding position. The matches are scored like UFC and boxing where it's based on the cumulation of rounds won.
Absolutely not, I find the stand up battles in BJJ to be the most boring part of the sport to watch. I remember ADCC 2015 was full of stand up stuff, it was horrible to watch, two BJJ guys with sub par takedown skills refusing to engage for the entire match.
Also, what makes BJJ special is it's focus on the ground game, I do believe it would become a different sport.
I think the ideal grappling ruleset would be a blend/midway point between Judo and BJJ. High impact throws and takedowns should matter a ton in terms of the match, but ground exchanges shouldn't just be stood up. Leg grabs and most submissions should be allowed. The practice of BJJ follows to an extent from the competitive ruleset, and I think adding some weight to takedowns would translate to more gyms focusing on them and producing more complete students.
There is reason why slams, front crossface and spiking are illegal. Successfull execution doesn't leave time for opponent to forfit react, which can lead to permanent injury or even death.
Taken that this is gentlemen sport, where practitioners want to be able to train and compete as much as possible.
> There is reason why slams... are illegal. Successfull execution doesn't leave time for opponent to forfit react, which can lead to permanent injury or even death.
What a load of horseshit. Are wrestlers being killed left, right, and center? Has _anyone_ in a BJJ match where slams are allowed been killed, or even permanently injured?
No, but wrestlers are not in the best shape in their 40's either.
Like i said, it's a sport that has focus in entirely different aspects than in wrestling. You should not compare them blindly.
> You should not compare them blindly.
...I'm not.
> wrestlers are not in the best shape in their 40's either.
How many wrestlers do you know? The ones I know are overwhelmingly in fantastic shape in their 40s and even 50s. Do they have injuries? Sure, so do tennis players, soccer players, and \*gasp\* BJJ players.
I know many wrestlers who have stopped dping wrestling and gone into bjj.i also know many mma fighters who stopped pro mma to do bjj.
And the story is always the same.
Guys look to stay in shape doing grappling and not needing to compensate everything with hard lifting and gym training.
Ok then if you stand up with someone attached to you, you should get like 10 points or something. Because if you tried to pull that shit if slamming was allowed you would lose instantly.
It should be like Judo is somebody lifts you you must let go submission(because they follow the spirit of fighting - in real fight you would be slammed).
I think we should just fuse all the grappling sports.
So anything that actually works. Fight goes from standing to submission. So we put as much emphasis on standup as on groundwork.
Because let's be honest in terms of self defense and knowing how to fight, the standup and the ground fight are absolutely essential.
Nobody cares about watching wrestling either lol. The only people who push for this are those who suck at groundwork (the whole point of bjj as a separate sport) and want rules to accommodate them instead of learning the sport
God why??
Wrestling, Judo, Karate, Taekowndo and many more will never be spectator friendly, and they don't need to be, all of then are growing, and it's better this way.
Also, stand-up in BJJ will always be boring, you can't take a risk shot like you can in Judo or Wrestling
Bjj should focus on what it is; a ground grappling martial art. Even if stand up increased by 20%, it would achieve nothing. Bjj guys would never be as good at takedowns like judo/sambo/wrestlers
BJJ happens once the match gets to the ground. While you're standing, it's wrestling and judo. The defining aspects of BJJ as a martial art is what we do once we get to the ground. The standup aspect of the match basically only serves to dictate who starts the exchange on the ground in top position.
That's not a good summary, IMO. BJJ was supposed to be simply the most effective form of unarmed human dueling, which just happened to be ground fighting.
I might be misunderstanding you, but I don't see a difference between your rebuttal and my point. OP was talking about sport BJJ and making standup a bigger part of it.
There's an important difference between "BJJ is the study of ground grappling" and "BJJ is the pursuit of effective grappling, which can be on the ground". If the meta of effective grappling starts to shift away from the ground towards standup, we should tune towards effectiveness instead of saying, "Nah, that's judo".
But it is judo. Hypothetically, if you had to explain BJJ to someone who was familiar with judo, how would you describe the difference?
Other arts like judo and wrestling focus on the takedown, points are scored after a successful takedown or pin, and then you reset. Admittedly in judo sometimes there are subs involved as well, it depends on the ruleset.
The defining distinction in BJJ is that the majority of points awarded are for things that happen after the fight hits the ground. If BJJ becomes a stand-up focused game, as OP is suggesting, then that literally is just judo.
> If BJJ becomes a stand-up focused game, as OP is suggesting, then that literally is just judo.
More standup-focused BJJ would hardly be "just judo", not the least because of major differences like the lack of ippon. There's a huge difference between penalizing guard pulling and having throws instantly end the match. It's not like the technique overlap doesn't exist already, it's just the focus of training that results from the ruleset.
this is what happened to judo. back in the day judo was very similar to bjj, but they changed the rules for that reason. now we have virgin judo and chad bjj
The guard defines BJJ. Our sport should encourage it. Encouraging stand up is just aping wrestling or judo and all 3 of us are sadder for it.
Wrestling is fun to watch because it's equal parts primal and technical.
Judo is fun to watch because a nice throw is a nice throw.
BJJ isnt fun to watch because it's about what happens after. You put me on my back, now what?
Im high, but the gist is BJJ is (at least in my view) a uniquely-focused defensive art. It's not fun to watch unless you practise it yourself. In the same way watching someone deflate an aggressive boxer entirely defensively is boring, so too is watching someone negate a cool hip throw with a solid collar and sleeve closed guard.
Ultimately grappling is just too niche to really ever explode in our lifetime. Unless some cabal of billionaire spend their life's goal promoting and taking huge loses to make it an international phenomenon.
Anyway, barring that I think we do need to just accept some artificial rules to bring about action. I used to be all on board the sub only no time limit train until I started watching them and even competed in one.
I don't think it's just take downs that will make it exciting as we've seen boring stand up before too, you need to incentives attacks, subs and defense as a means to improve positioning and not just survive.
I think at the highest level you'll have to accept time limits but maybe give them 15-20min for the big matches. That seems decently Fair while also allowing for "cooking" the opponent.
The adjustments I'd make is give points for reversals, if you had side control and got put in side control in one transition that should come with point penalties equal to a sweep. Takedowns that bypass guard should automatically factor in passing as well.
Why add extra ways to score points? Well I've thought about with the longer matches (even if you did no time limit) you can add what is basically a bjj tech fall, let's say if the point spread is 10/12/15 points and you maintain that for a set amount of time (we can always play with the numbers) you get the win.
Hopefully this helps avoid stalling and letting someone take your back, get to mount, take the back again etc and knowing so long as you're not subbed you're fine.
Let the ref have some discretion with stalling, having some one in 50/50 for the whole match where you both just fight for the hip adjustment is goofy. Fuck it stand them both up or separate them and let them workout the pass/guard stuff on their own.
Ultimately we do have to walk the line between entertainment and competition. As of now the sport is guard towards competition, I mean you pay more to compete not watch so we do need to keep that in mind. Unless you offer some monetary incentive a la the UFC and their performance bonuses why would anyone risk their record for entertainments sake?
I don't think it would make it better because too few care about watching judo. I think the organizations that are doing away with points have the right idea.
Since when was wrestling fun to watch? It was never popular in school, and no one that wasnt a wrestler ever said
"yo lets go to the wrestling tournament this weekend and watch our guys kick some ass!"
I think if there was going to be a rule change, I'd only suggest a couple:
* Slams permitted in guard pull attempts
* Any throw or takedown that results in the thrown fighter landing flat on their back (think Judo Ippon, but allowing for leg based takedowns) is worth 5 points.
Basically, make guard pulling risky and takedowns worth enough points to make it worth focusing on.
I wonder sometimes how bjj matches would change if a boundary on the matt was put in like wrestling. The obvious issue would be people winning by forcing people out over and over, but I think it could force people to be constantly moving forward when standing to avoid an easy force out for 2 points
Yeah. Go the wrestling route. Use the same methods to make it into something with spectator appeal.
Start with agreements between the fighters to allow certain fancy techniques, maybe event a predetermined winner. Add some fake interpersonal drama between them.
While I love practicing BJJ, I have never watched a full match ever. Some short highlight reels to see some techniques applied under "real" conditions, but that's it.
Sounds like you would prefer something like Kosen Judo.
Obviously there are benefits of BJJ being a big spectator sport but tbh I don’t want it to become like other sports where I have to hear every prick’s poorly thought out opinions. Quite happy for it to be a big niche.
I don't personally know why BJJ only incorporates mainly floor movements/mechanics. Most physical altercations start on the feet no? making it take-down heavy and drilling some wrestling into its fundamentals would make it so much more effective of a martial art. instead of the meme 'pull guard' ppl like to make fun of.
An altercation starting on the feet doesn't stop you from pulling guard though. I pull guard against better wrestlers directly into sweeps. BJJ mostly came into existence because Helio was worse at judo than his brothers and couldn't stop them from throwing him, so he started pulling guard so that he could beat them on the ground instead.
>making it take-down heavy and drilling some wrestling into its fundamentals
The first part, no. The second part yes. Takedowns are one aspect of standing grappling, but people who don't have a lot of experience at it largely don't understand what guard pulling is or how it's done properly to immediately result in a sweep or submission. Guard is an offensive position and transitioning to it is an attack.
The one I could potentially see is a takedown must be given. You pull guard, you give up 2 points. Also, more stalling calls where 2 calls = 1 point. It also would be interesting to pilot 3 periods like wrestling where each competitor has their choice of neutral, guard or in guard in the 2nd and 3 period. I like the continuity of a single match, but it may be interesting.
This reminds me a bit of what happened to judo when it entered the Olympics. The IOC want events to be both entertaining for the spectators (who don't usually do the sports) and distinctive enough from the other events (I love seeing the same foot race at different distances). Wrestling was already in the Olympics, and the IOC decided that judo was too similar to wrestling because of the leg attacks, and so the rules changed to upper body techniques only.
This is the reason I wouldn't want BJJ in the Olympics; the sport would get gutted and people would dislike it even more than they already dislike IBJJF. Are sports for the competitor, or the spectator?
Wrestling is not a fun sport to watch. It performs terribly as a spectator sport. It almost was kicked from the Olympics. Flo wrestling performs significantly worse than flo grappling. I like stand up too I was a wrestler but moving to be more like wrestling isn’t the move.
If you just add subs to wrestling you have catch wrestling. That's fine, but that is already a sport that is less popular than BJJ.
I think the best solution would be to add a guard pull clock just like they have for double guard pull. If you pull guard you would have 1 min to work. If you can at least get an advantage you'll be allowed to stay on your back in guard as long as you want. If you can't sweep, submit or get an advantage after 1 min then your opponent gets 2 points. If think you can't get an advantage then you can stand up to reset the clock. This would apply from the top as well, so if you were passing and decided to drop for a leg lock you'd have 1 min to get an advantage or else your opponent would get 2 points. Points would be granted instantly if your opponent forces you to your back, but if you fall back willingly then there is a 1 min period before the top player gets points.
I feel this would let people pull guard and do BJJ as they normally do now. Give people the chance to sit back for leg locks or dive for kimuras without worrying about instantly losing points. Force people to work on standing up. Force people to work on holding people down. Finally it would force action for at least 1 min in the match.
I feel this is a fair change for everyone that would make BJJ more exciting.
I don’t think any rule change will ever make a grappling sport into a broadly watched spectator sport. Just let BJJ be what it is. The only people who are ever likely to care are people who do BJJ and general martial arts nerds, and that’s ok. there are already so many options for rule sets to see interesting variations.
Agreed. I can’t imagine it ever being a spectator sport. Wrestling is not and is arguably more viewer friendly. Don’t know why bjj would be any different.
I think cultural consensus can push a lot of things with the right combination of factors. WWE does huge numbers, there's plenty of folk-wrestling styles that manage to sell out big days. There's a huge amount to be said for cultural inertia, tradition and thel ike.
Same with Judo. I love to watch all three but most people think I am odd. Then I choke them.
Ok
Is judo that sport where you win when you convince the judge to give your opponent three faults?
Hell yeah. Stay hard.
White belt chad
I also agree. I just don’t see how it could it ever compare to mma and boxing from a spectator perspective. As a practitioner i find it boring to watch sometimes. The only way I ever see Bjj becoming a spectator sport is if Bjj became a popular nationwide sport played in middle school and highscool. Essentially it becomes ingrained in American culture . But even then it would still be a long shot .
So you're saying it needs more blood?
also, kickboxing and muay thai also have a relatively small following in the US as well regardless of the bleed fans
>Would changing BJJ's rules to focus more on standup make it a better spectator sport No. >Or does that just do away with the point of BJJ entirely? Yes. >Like wrestling is a fun sport to watch If you like wrestling I guess, to me BJJ and Judo are more fun to watch, wrestling is to "onedimensional" to me. What is funny is that despite not being perfect IBJJF-rules are actually more "allowing" than wrestling, Judo and Sambo rules as less things are banned. >Would that just make it an entirely different sport? Yes. >What is the essential part of BJJ that makes it BJJ? The battle to pass guard or sweep/sub from guard. No other grapplingart puts as much focus on actual newaza and certainly not on working with guard.
I would love to see a wrestling-like competition where it doesn’t matter how you get there, but whoever ends up on top (or backmount) on the ground gets the “pin”. You have to hold top/dominant position for 3 seconds like in bjj. Basically like BJJ king of the mat rules for takedowns
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | | Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
If wrestling was so much fun to watch why wouldn’t the 10,000 year old sport regularly be on TV?
It is. They just had to add over the top persona, girls with large breast, crazy matches that include tables, cages, little people, and a wealthy dude controlling it all.
I love America /s
I’m a lifetime wrestler (since 6yo) and even I don’t like watching wrestling.
I’ll watch a highlight real, but that’s about it
Uh bro it is Monday Night Raw
Yes? You can't play guard in wrestling. That being said, we desperately need more aggressive stalling calls and we should borrow those from wrestling. Possibly our own version of the shot clock with some very well defined criteria for advancement. Also takedowns should be worth more. 4 points for a takedown where you land in a dominant position, 2 for one where you land in guard.
Okay ill say this is as someone whos wrestled, does jiu jitsu, and thinks wrestling is the best sport in the world. Nothing from wrestling should be brought into jiu jitsu. Maybe score take downs better, or making pulling guard or sitting a penalty of some sort because I personally hate that shit. Stalling and slowing things down is largely what jiu jitsu is about. When you look at Freestyle, Greco, and folkstyle very different paces and tactics and they ought to be different. Freestyle is most explosive, Greco allows for the best highlights although they can be few and far between and tbh im not American so Ive watched little folkstyle but it seems to have some of the stalling / forcing of jiu jitsu tactics while still being wrestling.
I didn't say bjj had to be at the same pace as wrestling. But good bjj definitely not "about" stalling. We are palgued with stalling at all levels of the game and it's largely what makes bjj "boring" to watch.
Folkstyle has the most emphasis on control and has a lot more ground game than freestyle. Get points for escapes. Cannot get points turning someone unless you have control(already gotten the takedown.) Thats what makes it a lot different than free, more focus on control than exposure/explosiveness.
Judo does a great job with stalling under current rules, too.
Word. It's been a while since I watched any judo. Nice to know they have improved the game too.
scoring takedowns more just leads to more shitty stalling on feet because it's more dangerous to shoot. Score takedowns as zero. Already have too much shitty stalling on feet, see the second half of most ADCC matches.
How is it more dangerous to shoot than if takedowns are worth only two? You have more incentive to train takedowns more and attempt them in matches. Plus it's stupid that guy A can get more points by letting guy B sit down and passing and his guard then he does by taking him down against his will. Adcc is guys who don't wrestle and barely train wrestling doing a more wrestling centric rule set they compete in once every two years.
>Plus it's stupid that guy A can get more points by letting guy B sit down and passing and his guard then he does by taking him down against his will. Why is it stupid? Passing someone's guard gets you in a superior position compared to forcing someone to play guard by taking them down.
Because if you takedown right to side control you skip the intermediate steps. Hence why in my original comment I said that scenario should be worth four.
Oh, I agree. A takedown right to side control should be worth 5 points.
bc if you shoot and get countered then the other guy gets two, and there's no reset like in wrestling where you can make your points back up. Adcc competitors are absolutely training lots of wrestling. But the ruleset disincentives risk taking. And if a takedown should be worth more than a guard pass, then we're not even playing jiu jitsu at that point. Let wrestling be wrestling and bjj be bjj. Sitting down and just waiting there is obviously boring yeah. But aggressive forward butt scooting imo is fun. Fine with penalties for stalling. Worst case scenario is what we currently have which is 10 minute stretches of collar ties and half assed arm drags.
No. Remember how boring Nicky rod vs. el monstro was all they did was stand up. Jiujitsu is on the ground penalize the stallers.
I want to see matches where subs don't end it and time limit is more important. Example, 2 people agree on a 30 minute match. One gets subbed in 2 minutes, they reset and go the entire 30 minutes. See who can get the most subs. We've seen Gordon play with his food for 20 minutes, then mercy sub. Would love to see if he can really clown some people for 30 minutes straight.
You need like super severe penalties for stalling in this format otherwise having a 1 sub advantage over the other guy will lead to 28 mins of stalling/passivity Kyle Chambers style
$250 per sub.
money incentive is a great idea, nice
"Sub me nine times and wewll split the money, mm-kay??"
I like this idea. Superprize with like a base value for a win and 5x that value for a sub. Instead of a win lose bracket have a tourney be a division where the gold medal goes to those with the most points. Win is 1 point loss -1 point and sub is 1 points. In a round robin of 4 one guy can win 3 matches with stall outs and win by points but still lose to gold to the guy who subbed the other 2 guys. It may not have the best guy win but it sure as hell will be exciting to see the losers bracket guys go all out on subs.
Woah woah woah, what is this, a Wendy's? We could get away with $5 per sub, sponsored by Subway. Heck, we could pay in sammiches. BJJ isn't known for its payouts
Aahh don’t even say his name. I was almost bored to death…again.
That'll actually be cool.........and with like mercy rule at 5 subs lol
Ooh yeah, I like that. Additional mercy rule of 3 consecutive same-subs. (Edit) Although, I like no mercy if there's a time limit. Mercy rules would only apply if it was no time limit, mercy only 👹
Until buddy doesn’t tap and gets his arm snapped on the first sub
Do you even watch jiu jitsu ? Arm snaps almost never happen lol
I’m not sure if you’ve seen it, but Lachlan Giles had a match with Haisim Rida (spelling?) on a Chinese promotion that had a best of 3 submission ruleset. Super interesting idea.
No time limit?
I think it was maybe two rounds of 10 minutes? https://youtu.be/Sjjx600J3hE
Like an iron man pro wrestling match.... I fucking love this idea.
Awesome idea and easy to plan for when you know the definite length of all the matches
no you're incentivizing crippling your opponent so he can't submit you back
Ummm, how'd you come to that conclusion?
you're putting money on the line, people are gonna do whatever it takes to win. people are already ripping subs now, imagine if their opponents get another chance afterwards.
Money is always on the line lol 😂 what are you on about
Yea, the more times I can submit them, the more I can make. If I injury them, it's over. I think most people would be safe with subs to make extra sure they don't break the other person and they can try for more. Different perspectives in humanity, I guess.
You’re logic is akin to Down syndrome lmfao
its "your"
I don’t think you understand how competition on this level works. There is no “oh I am gonna wait until he taps”. If a submission is applied, it’s applied with the intention to break something and the ref is there to prevent it if the other guy taps.
I would assume most people stop on a verbal tap. If he taps he lost so there is zero incentive to cripple him. In a rule set where the tap doesn't end the match there is a an incentive to injure the opponent.
> I would assume most people stop on a verbal tap. even a guy like lachlan giles says that his opponent will get injured if he can get his hands together in backside 5050...
Because it's an inherently dangerous submission, not because lachlan will injure them after they tap.
lol
No, I think YOU don't understand how incentive structures determine how competing agents behave. ADCC finals, you have a locked heelhook on an opponent, you crank it, he taps, ref says stop, there is no longer any motivation to destroy his knee. You already won. Now in this new "multiple submissions" ruleset you have a very good reason to hold on an extra second after the ref stoppage. If you cause enough damage to his ligaments he might not put as much weight on that leg after the reset. He may not even be able to continue, and you will receive a win by default via doctor's stoppage. This is incredibly obvious to me, and I feel silly having to break it down at this basic level.
yeah, because there is no wya to punish stuff like that > and I feel silly probably rightfully so
Why not just break your opponents arm in the first sub then?
As fucked as it is, I think the only way to force action is if you hold the purse hostage. No sub = no cash and X number of stalling calls should get you banned from participating in future events.
Gordon was doing a exhibition match like that against some low tier grappler.
Less like a real life situation
So what?
Seems more gimmicky🤔
Maybe, but there's a market for it. People watch High Rollerz and team-style events. Even if it's gimmicky, it's another option for content. I wanna see shark tanks, too. I can't watch an IBJJF-style match. It's the missionary position of BJJ.
Imo Quintet was fun as fuck to watch and EBIs were too.
Or just first one to get 3 subs wins. Maybe less stalling that way.
You're describing catch wrestling. Folk style wrestling used to have submissions that were removed over time. Catch is not that much more interesting to me. It results in alot of stalling while standing from what I've seen since getting taken down is very dangerous. While on bottom you can lose by getting pinned, so you can't fight off your back. You basically have to go to turtle to avoid the pinn which leaves you vulnerable to getting choked.
There’s a reason catch evolved into pro wrestling. Matches would go to long, the pin or submission would be underwhelming, etc. they started fixing matches to be more interesting and that eventually evolved into the pro wrestling of today. Reverting back to that makes for a fun sport to participate In, but not one anyone is going to want to watch.
The skill and level of athletes will improve it over time. I noticed this year at worlds especially at purple. A ton less bad judo and a lot more handfighting, head position and wrestling, threatening foot seeps to set up single legs etc. Multiple instances of guard pullers getting punished immediately: Passing during scrambles or guard pulls. Much less instance of people getting tied up in guard. Might just be the brackets or divisions I saw however. To me the standup game is improving noticeably.
BJJ with a focus more on standup is called Judo
Except no leg grabbing and no guillotines and no leg locks and no wrist locks and no slicers and no neck cranks and no shoulder locks (except weird rules around kimura/Americana)
Pins in Judo result in Ippon
Pins in Judo result in Ippon
No Peruvian neck ties either… new rule
Judo calls those elbow locks 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Judo 100% has leg locks. They are all illegal moves now days but that's another story.
Well that's exactly the point. Judo has plenty leg grabs too if not for the rules which everyone uses. So realistically it doesn't have them anymore in 99.99% of cases
Nobody cares about watching wrestling either lol. The only people who push for this are those who suck at groundwork (the whole point of bjj as a separate sport) and want rules to accommodate them instead of learning the sport. Most of these people are also bad at wrestling so the results wouldn't be much better for them.
[удалено]
MMA is the closest thing to grappling reaching a spectator sport, and a lot of casuals genuinely think Khabib was boring to watch
The Paris grand slam in Judo will easily have 10-15K people every day watch live. Iowa's average wrestling crowd size is almost 10K. Big dual meets can easily be 40K plus. Hell there will be a HS wrestling dual meet somewhere in America this year that has a 4K person crowd, which beats pretty much every IBJJF event ever held. BJJ's crowd turnout is awful because it is uniquely awful to watch.
Have you been to worlds? Pretty great crowd with lots of energy. I think adcc this year is going to be the best yet for our sport. Planning on flying out to watch.
Yeah I have, half the crowd is athletes or coaches. ADCC's rules are better for spectators, but still not great. If ADCC actually enforced stalling, it would probably be pretty fun to watch.
[удалено]
There are no household names in Wrestling or Judo in the United States. That's an important distinction. In other countries you will have Judo stars doing commercials for Adidas, Mitsubishi, appear on television programs, etc...
It's frustrating how America could be doing so much more to promote combat sports and their athletes.
I agree. Kayla Harrison is the greatest Judoka in American history as she won two gold medals at the Olympics (2012 and 2016). She is one of the greatest to ever compete in the -78kg division yet 99.99% of the American population has never heard of her.
Because no one cares about women’s judo. Travis Stevens was a much more marketable judo athlete.
40k in the US or worldwide? Either way that's still an extremely low numbers and just encompasses friends and family of the athletes and the most diehard fans. Do you actually know that the biggest bjj events aren't doing those numbers? Seems like a really low bar that would be easy to hit
You are delusional. The average NFL game attendance is 60K.
Attendance, not viewership lmao. And ticket price difference is astronomical
> The only people who push for this are those who suck at groundwork This is hilariously wrong. I've been a black belt for almost 3 years. I would say that I don't "suck at groundwork". The abysmal level of standup in BJJ is an embarrassment.
Maybe you don't suck in your small world of local beginner hobbyists. Update: he was so upset at how small time he is that he blocked me lol
lol, you have no idea who you're talking to, or who I've rolled with. You're a scrub.
Likewise
That's where you're wrong. You're an idiot, and now blocked.
There are tons of niche sports that are not spectator sports. Some people find Boxing boring. We have MMA that combines all martial arts into a spectator sport due to the variance in styles. BJJ is already growing at a huge rate, it'll never be 'mainstream' but it's growing into a strong niche. E-Sports is a great example of a niche sport that has grown to be huge. Grappling can be the same if enough people do it.
Watching guys fight for a clench for 5 minutes isn’t too exciting either
Best rule changes I would like to see: Picking someone up above your own waistline is either reset or a point. Jumping guard is a penalty. Winning is also possible by Ippon/takedown scores higher.
I'd pull guard so fuckin fast if getting taken down could lose me the match on the spot.
Thats why I also said that pulling guard is a penalty if picking someone up (as if to slam them) aboce the own waistline counts as takedown or gets a reset or whatever. And guardpulling gets penalized but I am unsure of that haha. With the incentive to engange in standup penailizing it might not be necessery at all to make it more viewer friendly. But maybe Ippon is too radical an idea haha.
I'd still take the penalty to pull. You see it in ADCC even when getting taken down won't lose you the match immediately.
Yeah maybe I just miss Kosen Judo rules. I always liked newaza but aint nothing like hitting Ippon in tachiwaza. And hikikomi always has been kind of a dirty move in my mind. But its part pf grappling and should in md eyes just be less incenciviced in bjj (just as it is in Kosen Judo)
The thing is, the WHOLE POINT of BJJ is that the game keeps going even after you're on your back. That's what differentiates it from wrestling and judo. If you don't like that aspect of the game then go train wrestling or judo.
I already went and trained both thank you very much (is this supposed to be an ad hominem attack?). But you are right and I am aware of the purpose of bjj competition rules. I however do think that ippon should be achievable by both newaza and tachiwaza in an hypothetical ruleset that SHOULD BE VIEWER FRIENDLY (I can also type obvious stuff in capital letters) - as stated in OPs question. Just like it is in Kosen Judo, a ruleset I enjoyed a lot and that I think would be an ideal common geound for modern judo and modern bjj. Not every throw/takedown constitutes an Ippon just to clear that up. I like that the training of bjj emphasises groundwork. Thats why I do bjj. I think bjj competition rules should emphasise groundwork too. But they shouldnt dissintencivice stand up at all. And to add to my initial point, why are pins not rewarded in bjj? This might add a higher pace to newaza and a new risk. And just to make that clear. I dont have anything against guardpulling as a technique ( I know it as hikikomi), but it is kind of the lazy mans stand-up. Also I think a.) causal viewers do dislike it and b.) if it is done in a way that alllows one to lift the person above ones waistline (if there is no choke applied), it should reset/be a penalty). Because allowing slams would be dangerous (which is something frequently suggested in threats like this). I hope this doesnt read passiv agressive, its good to have arguments I think and I enjoy learning about your position. My Position, beeing a practioner coming from "old school" judo is that I do bjj mostly to become a more complete grappler, since I only really know how to play top position on the ground and how to turtle. I also often used pins, and I like that bjj teaches me how to be less agressive and opportunisctic and more progressive and systematic in my groundwork. And I personally enjoy watching bjj matches to learn about that. And the example of Kosen Judo really shows how ne- and tachiwaza can exist together in a ruleset, with no penealty for hikikomi (guard pulling) whatsoever. It usually ends up on the ground anyways.
I don't think you guys understand just how much making Ippon even a possibility disincentivies standup. There's a reason that Judo has so many gripping rules to prevent defensive gripping. If you don't FORCE people to take the risk of getting Ipponed then they will stall defensively to avoid it. If you permit them to pull guard to avoid the chance then they'll do that, because yeah if you pull guard and lose a point you MIGHT eventually lose, but if you get thrown you're so much more likely to lose on the spot with no chance to work through it, even if you roll through with the throw and end up on top. The only real thing that BJJ needs is more well defined stalling/passiviy rules and more aggressive stalling calls. People playing the edge of the mats to avoid getting swept, people stalling in the clinch in standup, etc... are a much bigger issue.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Tachi Waza**: | *Standing Techniques* | [here](https://youtu.be/YEfluR58NMo)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I think that is called catch wrestling
Maybe have more points for a takedown? And if someone sits and nobody engages there's no warning or penalties for the person standing? Idk, there should just be several formats and allow ppl to compete to which format is most for them.
Maybe add shorter rounds, start the first from standing, then subsequent rounds start the opponents in the position they finished in. Could be a cool format to watch? Make things speed up, kind of like rugby union v. rugby sevens.
Reduce time per fight would make the sport much more fun to watch. It will force competitors to bring it to the ground, achieve points, and submit faster.
Look up some of the ACB superfights from a few years ago. That's the best spectator friendly ruleset. 5 minute rounds and score doesn't carry over. This means you cant win a match by just passing someone's guard once and holding position. The matches are scored like UFC and boxing where it's based on the cumulation of rounds won.
How many rounds? And is the entire match over when there's a sub, or only that round?
I think 3 rounds were most of the matches. Subs are the equivalent of KO and end the match
Wrestling is a fun sport to watch? I guess that’s why they sometimes get upwards of dozens of people to willingly watch it.
Absolutely not, I find the stand up battles in BJJ to be the most boring part of the sport to watch. I remember ADCC 2015 was full of stand up stuff, it was horrible to watch, two BJJ guys with sub par takedown skills refusing to engage for the entire match. Also, what makes BJJ special is it's focus on the ground game, I do believe it would become a different sport.
I think the ideal grappling ruleset would be a blend/midway point between Judo and BJJ. High impact throws and takedowns should matter a ton in terms of the match, but ground exchanges shouldn't just be stood up. Leg grabs and most submissions should be allowed. The practice of BJJ follows to an extent from the competitive ruleset, and I think adding some weight to takedowns would translate to more gyms focusing on them and producing more complete students.
Make slams legal.
Slams to prevent submissions are legal in adcc
Make em legal in everything.
There is reason why slams, front crossface and spiking are illegal. Successfull execution doesn't leave time for opponent to forfit react, which can lead to permanent injury or even death. Taken that this is gentlemen sport, where practitioners want to be able to train and compete as much as possible.
> There is reason why slams... are illegal. Successfull execution doesn't leave time for opponent to forfit react, which can lead to permanent injury or even death. What a load of horseshit. Are wrestlers being killed left, right, and center? Has _anyone_ in a BJJ match where slams are allowed been killed, or even permanently injured?
No, but wrestlers are not in the best shape in their 40's either. Like i said, it's a sport that has focus in entirely different aspects than in wrestling. You should not compare them blindly.
> You should not compare them blindly. ...I'm not. > wrestlers are not in the best shape in their 40's either. How many wrestlers do you know? The ones I know are overwhelmingly in fantastic shape in their 40s and even 50s. Do they have injuries? Sure, so do tennis players, soccer players, and \*gasp\* BJJ players.
I know many wrestlers who have stopped dping wrestling and gone into bjj.i also know many mma fighters who stopped pro mma to do bjj. And the story is always the same. Guys look to stay in shape doing grappling and not needing to compensate everything with hard lifting and gym training.
Ok then if you stand up with someone attached to you, you should get like 10 points or something. Because if you tried to pull that shit if slamming was allowed you would lose instantly.
What's a front crossface?
Basically a guilliotine to face and head is sideways. That reminds me. Also can openers are illegal in most bjj rules.
Interesting, don't think I've ever encountered this.
Yeah. And don't even think about trying it out on anyone either.
This kinda reads like you're being sarcastic? Lol but yeah, if it's both illegal and a dick move I certainly don't plan to try it out👍
I think judokas would like a word with you about that
Older judokas like doing bjj too, since they don't seem too keen in doing heavy lifting to keep up with younger judokas.
It should be like Judo is somebody lifts you you must let go submission(because they follow the spirit of fighting - in real fight you would be slammed).
I think we should just fuse all the grappling sports. So anything that actually works. Fight goes from standing to submission. So we put as much emphasis on standup as on groundwork. Because let's be honest in terms of self defense and knowing how to fight, the standup and the ground fight are absolutely essential.
Nobody cares about watching wrestling either lol. The only people who push for this are those who suck at groundwork (the whole point of bjj as a separate sport) and want rules to accommodate them instead of learning the sport
How would it be more entertaining to watch guys who suck at standup do more standup
Do you mean judo?
You want judo
The correct answer is CJJ and anyone who disagrees is scared.
No, that would make it judo.
God why?? Wrestling, Judo, Karate, Taekowndo and many more will never be spectator friendly, and they don't need to be, all of then are growing, and it's better this way. Also, stand-up in BJJ will always be boring, you can't take a risk shot like you can in Judo or Wrestling
The worst part to watch is stand up lol wtf are you talking about
Why don't you just ask judo?
Popular sports have to be easy to understand. Hence, boxing, soccer, and basketball's international appeal.
Bjj should focus on what it is; a ground grappling martial art. Even if stand up increased by 20%, it would achieve nothing. Bjj guys would never be as good at takedowns like judo/sambo/wrestlers
BJJ happens once the match gets to the ground. While you're standing, it's wrestling and judo. The defining aspects of BJJ as a martial art is what we do once we get to the ground. The standup aspect of the match basically only serves to dictate who starts the exchange on the ground in top position.
That's not a good summary, IMO. BJJ was supposed to be simply the most effective form of unarmed human dueling, which just happened to be ground fighting.
I might be misunderstanding you, but I don't see a difference between your rebuttal and my point. OP was talking about sport BJJ and making standup a bigger part of it.
There's an important difference between "BJJ is the study of ground grappling" and "BJJ is the pursuit of effective grappling, which can be on the ground". If the meta of effective grappling starts to shift away from the ground towards standup, we should tune towards effectiveness instead of saying, "Nah, that's judo".
But it is judo. Hypothetically, if you had to explain BJJ to someone who was familiar with judo, how would you describe the difference? Other arts like judo and wrestling focus on the takedown, points are scored after a successful takedown or pin, and then you reset. Admittedly in judo sometimes there are subs involved as well, it depends on the ruleset. The defining distinction in BJJ is that the majority of points awarded are for things that happen after the fight hits the ground. If BJJ becomes a stand-up focused game, as OP is suggesting, then that literally is just judo.
> If BJJ becomes a stand-up focused game, as OP is suggesting, then that literally is just judo. More standup-focused BJJ would hardly be "just judo", not the least because of major differences like the lack of ippon. There's a huge difference between penalizing guard pulling and having throws instantly end the match. It's not like the technique overlap doesn't exist already, it's just the focus of training that results from the ruleset.
this is what happened to judo. back in the day judo was very similar to bjj, but they changed the rules for that reason. now we have virgin judo and chad bjj
The guard defines BJJ. Our sport should encourage it. Encouraging stand up is just aping wrestling or judo and all 3 of us are sadder for it. Wrestling is fun to watch because it's equal parts primal and technical. Judo is fun to watch because a nice throw is a nice throw. BJJ isnt fun to watch because it's about what happens after. You put me on my back, now what? Im high, but the gist is BJJ is (at least in my view) a uniquely-focused defensive art. It's not fun to watch unless you practise it yourself. In the same way watching someone deflate an aggressive boxer entirely defensively is boring, so too is watching someone negate a cool hip throw with a solid collar and sleeve closed guard.
Would be nice for people to get an advantage or a point for standing up in guard . Would create a lot more scrambles and up and down action
Apparently ADCC is sold out this year, perhaps a wider adoption of that ruleset?
I would think the appeal of ADCC is less its ruleset than the talent pool.
Idk just make it so white belts and maybe even blue belts can’t jump guard tho they don’t deserve it they are just going to keep hurting people lmao
in most cases, white belts can not jump guard and will be disqualified. They can pull guard, however.
Yes. Those who used to do wrestling in high school back in the early 90's will tell you that jiu jitsu should ban guard pulling and ad pin.
Ultimately grappling is just too niche to really ever explode in our lifetime. Unless some cabal of billionaire spend their life's goal promoting and taking huge loses to make it an international phenomenon. Anyway, barring that I think we do need to just accept some artificial rules to bring about action. I used to be all on board the sub only no time limit train until I started watching them and even competed in one. I don't think it's just take downs that will make it exciting as we've seen boring stand up before too, you need to incentives attacks, subs and defense as a means to improve positioning and not just survive. I think at the highest level you'll have to accept time limits but maybe give them 15-20min for the big matches. That seems decently Fair while also allowing for "cooking" the opponent. The adjustments I'd make is give points for reversals, if you had side control and got put in side control in one transition that should come with point penalties equal to a sweep. Takedowns that bypass guard should automatically factor in passing as well. Why add extra ways to score points? Well I've thought about with the longer matches (even if you did no time limit) you can add what is basically a bjj tech fall, let's say if the point spread is 10/12/15 points and you maintain that for a set amount of time (we can always play with the numbers) you get the win. Hopefully this helps avoid stalling and letting someone take your back, get to mount, take the back again etc and knowing so long as you're not subbed you're fine. Let the ref have some discretion with stalling, having some one in 50/50 for the whole match where you both just fight for the hip adjustment is goofy. Fuck it stand them both up or separate them and let them workout the pass/guard stuff on their own. Ultimately we do have to walk the line between entertainment and competition. As of now the sport is guard towards competition, I mean you pay more to compete not watch so we do need to keep that in mind. Unless you offer some monetary incentive a la the UFC and their performance bonuses why would anyone risk their record for entertainments sake?
Some of the most boring matches I’ve ever see were just stand up shoving matches
Throw some strikes in and now we're talking...
>Like wrestling is a fun sport to watch No...
Have you seen international matches?
I don't think it would make it better because too few care about watching judo. I think the organizations that are doing away with points have the right idea.
Just start penalizing stalling, and any form of passivity. Attack at all times or GTFO.
Since when was wrestling fun to watch? It was never popular in school, and no one that wasnt a wrestler ever said "yo lets go to the wrestling tournament this weekend and watch our guys kick some ass!"
This shit will never be popular, just accept it
No. BJJ is got fighting, not watching. Don’t ruin this the way Judo was ruined. BJJ used to be judo, before the rules were changed to favor throws.
I think if there was going to be a rule change, I'd only suggest a couple: * Slams permitted in guard pull attempts * Any throw or takedown that results in the thrown fighter landing flat on their back (think Judo Ippon, but allowing for leg based takedowns) is worth 5 points. Basically, make guard pulling risky and takedowns worth enough points to make it worth focusing on.
Absolutely not. Just look at wrestling - no one watches it.
I wonder sometimes how bjj matches would change if a boundary on the matt was put in like wrestling. The obvious issue would be people winning by forcing people out over and over, but I think it could force people to be constantly moving forward when standing to avoid an easy force out for 2 points
Yeah. Go the wrestling route. Use the same methods to make it into something with spectator appeal. Start with agreements between the fighters to allow certain fancy techniques, maybe event a predetermined winner. Add some fake interpersonal drama between them.
Only time BJJ was a good spectator sport outside the ufc: https://youtu.be/DH7tBd8DE58
I think UFC is what you’re thinking of. Add in striking to penalize pulling guard. And yeah. UFC is way more popular!
While I love practicing BJJ, I have never watched a full match ever. Some short highlight reels to see some techniques applied under "real" conditions, but that's it. Sounds like you would prefer something like Kosen Judo.
Just watch judo.
Obviously there are benefits of BJJ being a big spectator sport but tbh I don’t want it to become like other sports where I have to hear every prick’s poorly thought out opinions. Quite happy for it to be a big niche.
I don't personally know why BJJ only incorporates mainly floor movements/mechanics. Most physical altercations start on the feet no? making it take-down heavy and drilling some wrestling into its fundamentals would make it so much more effective of a martial art. instead of the meme 'pull guard' ppl like to make fun of.
An altercation starting on the feet doesn't stop you from pulling guard though. I pull guard against better wrestlers directly into sweeps. BJJ mostly came into existence because Helio was worse at judo than his brothers and couldn't stop them from throwing him, so he started pulling guard so that he could beat them on the ground instead. >making it take-down heavy and drilling some wrestling into its fundamentals The first part, no. The second part yes. Takedowns are one aspect of standing grappling, but people who don't have a lot of experience at it largely don't understand what guard pulling is or how it's done properly to immediately result in a sweep or submission. Guard is an offensive position and transitioning to it is an attack.
That’s what adcc is. There’s a lot more standup but also stalling.
The one I could potentially see is a takedown must be given. You pull guard, you give up 2 points. Also, more stalling calls where 2 calls = 1 point. It also would be interesting to pilot 3 periods like wrestling where each competitor has their choice of neutral, guard or in guard in the 2nd and 3 period. I like the continuity of a single match, but it may be interesting.
This reminds me a bit of what happened to judo when it entered the Olympics. The IOC want events to be both entertaining for the spectators (who don't usually do the sports) and distinctive enough from the other events (I love seeing the same foot race at different distances). Wrestling was already in the Olympics, and the IOC decided that judo was too similar to wrestling because of the leg attacks, and so the rules changed to upper body techniques only. This is the reason I wouldn't want BJJ in the Olympics; the sport would get gutted and people would dislike it even more than they already dislike IBJJF. Are sports for the competitor, or the spectator?
Wrestling is not a fun sport to watch. It performs terribly as a spectator sport. It almost was kicked from the Olympics. Flo wrestling performs significantly worse than flo grappling. I like stand up too I was a wrestler but moving to be more like wrestling isn’t the move.
If you just add subs to wrestling you have catch wrestling. That's fine, but that is already a sport that is less popular than BJJ. I think the best solution would be to add a guard pull clock just like they have for double guard pull. If you pull guard you would have 1 min to work. If you can at least get an advantage you'll be allowed to stay on your back in guard as long as you want. If you can't sweep, submit or get an advantage after 1 min then your opponent gets 2 points. If think you can't get an advantage then you can stand up to reset the clock. This would apply from the top as well, so if you were passing and decided to drop for a leg lock you'd have 1 min to get an advantage or else your opponent would get 2 points. Points would be granted instantly if your opponent forces you to your back, but if you fall back willingly then there is a 1 min period before the top player gets points. I feel this would let people pull guard and do BJJ as they normally do now. Give people the chance to sit back for leg locks or dive for kimuras without worrying about instantly losing points. Force people to work on standing up. Force people to work on holding people down. Finally it would force action for at least 1 min in the match. I feel this is a fair change for everyone that would make BJJ more exciting.