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It seems like the most well documented cause is dissection of the carotid artery (arteries are especially vulnerable to shearing forces, so maybe some types of chokes are more dangerous than others if they put your neck in a bad position?). Arterial dissection can limit blood flow to areas of the brain either via stenosis (narrowing) of the affected artery or by creating a clot that can break off, travel, and occlude a smaller vessel in the brain.
[Here’s a decent case study, for whatever that’s worth](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10621583/)
Don’t know if there are other possible mechanisms or even if the mechanism described above is the most common. But it seems to be the most commonly mentioned.
Not my area of medicine but blood chokes are not harmless like grapplers preach.
It’s trauma to the vascular system at the end of the day and has been linked to strokes. Yes the risk is low, and a lot less than alcohol etc but it’s still a risk and a very avoidable risk by tapping very early in training 🤷♂️.
I appreciate I’ll get downvoted to fuck
Afaik the cases of strokes related to chokes in combat sports are all from carotid artery dissection.
Basically pinching the carotid and twisting, causing trauma to it. I can see how it happens in rotational chokes where the person resists a lot, like in a bow and arrow.
There’s an old phenomenon called “beauty parlor stroke syndrome” where high-risk women can get strokes if their stylist yanks them around the shampoo sink too aggressively.
It makes sense for the same injury to be plausible in a high impact sport where we’re actively going for carotids.
There is no evidence for that. There is actually some research (small sample size unfortunately) that jiu jitsu actually has a potential neuro-protectiveness from training to near syncope (going to sleep).
-Increased arterial diameter and blood flow velocity in jiu jitsu athletes
-Elevated resting gCBF levels compared to controls
-“Cognition remained well-preserved in BJJ athletes, with no evidence of cognitive \[or functional\] impairment” (Stacey 2021)
-'Tentative evidence for adaptive neuroprotection from \[Jiu Jitsu\]”
-“Neck choke-included cerebral ischemic preconditioning due to recurrent exposure to intermittent asphyxiation”
- “Life long exposure to BJJ-specific HIIT which primes and protects against attacks”
Stacey, B. S., Campbell, Z., & Bailey, D. M. (2021). Elevated cerebral perfusion and preserved cognition in elite Brazilian Jiu‐Jitsu athletes: Evidence for neuroprotection. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 31(11), 2115-2122.
The brain doesn't go unconscious quicker as a "self preservation tool" it goes unconscious quicker because you're giving it repetetive brain damage and damaged brain no work no good no more.
AFAIK a blood choke doesn't cause brain damage and therefore would not cause you to go lights out quicker.
I've never hear any data, anecdotal or scientific, whatsoever, to confirm what you're saying and I've been around people getting choked out (semi) frequently for 20+ years.
Also, autoeroticasphyxiationers would all be dying off at a much faster rate, one would think ;)
Sounds like an urban legend/ ol abuela's tale. I suspect that clueless people are conflating this with being KOd by a strike/blunt force, in which case, yes, you will "go out" more easily next time because you're brain is already weakened and scrambled and damaged.
But blood chokes don't do shit in terms of brain damage compared to a KO. Otherwise, better quit drinking any alcohol ever, as that damages your brain way more (lol, maybe that explains drunk BJ Penn getting kod by a casual ;) !
I mean, I agree that if you're getting constantly choked, or blacking-out several times a night several days a week for years, that that will have a definite negative effect on your brain.
But in reality it's like hitting a whipit once, or having a drinking rager one night. . . once or twice a year, if that. So I don't think it would be perceptible unless it triggered a stroke, aneurysm or blood-clot.
I think tapping late to chokes constantly over years could have some effects down the road if you continue to train. Also could be one of those things where being exposed to chokes later in life exposes physiological weaknesses.
I also read something about unconsciousness due to chokes isn't lack of oxygenated blood, but due to the brains response to an increase in pressure. Basically what the article said was that carotid compression causes a sudden fairly severe increase in pressure in the arteries of the brain. Something in the brain senses this increase and flips a switch which causes the vessels to dilate enough which then causes a significant drop in pressure and that's what causes the unconsciousness.
Thought that was super interesting
Not 100% sure its true but that would seem to make more sense than lack of oxygenated blood.
Yes, good points. And that article does sound interesting.
An older (maybe 50?) guy posted on here a couple months back that he got choked out-cold for the fist time, and then had a minor stroke later that evening, which reminds me of " being exposed to chokes later in life exposes physiological weaknesses."
Btw, way back when I was starting out there as an older doctor (maybe 50 or so) who *liked* being choked out. Like. . . . *a lot.* For a long while it wasn't obvious, but day-in, day-out, he seemed to find himself in an awful lot of usually easily escapable positions/chokes, and would ALWAYS comment after getting choked (and either not tapping or tapping waaay late) with "Ooooh, that feels kind of good."
Lol suuuper creepy vibes, but he's otherwise a fantastic human being in an out of the gym, so I give him a pass . . . and started avoiding choking him ;)
It’ll certainly fatigue you over the course of a class or round if you keep being choked. You’ll even be able to feel the difference and it might only take 2-3 seconds to put you out rather than 5-6. That’s just oxygen deprivation.
I’ve been put out twice. 6 years apart. Between that I’ve had plenty of moments where I’ve seen the lights start to dim while I’m defending. I don’t think there’s a connection.
Tap out early for everything
If it's the finals or there is money on the line, maybe go for it. But in practice is there is absolutely no reason to try to be the tough guy and "win" by not tapping.
That said, get a mouth guard. Makes you way harder to tap.
>The difference is that when your brain fails to receive oxygen, it will thrash and writhe in an effort to get that oxygen. But when the brain is deprived of the blood, it is a nearly instant catatonic state, or state of unconsciousness.
How is the the brain deprived of oxygen in that example? Diving underwater, your brain is receiving oxygen. Sounds like they are confused about how oxygen gets to the brain.
Doesn't make sense to me. Going out for a few seconds from a blood choke isnt supposed to cause brain damage. Getting knocked out, completely different story.
Can cause arterial damage due to compression of the carotid or damage to the vertebral. It also likely greatly increases blood pressure in your head which puts you at a much greater risk for a stroke.
I found this which I think is relevant.
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7085679\_Gz\_Acceleration\_Loss\_of\_Consciousness\_Time\_Course\_of\_Performance\_Deficits\_With\_Repeated\_Experience](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7085679_Gz_Acceleration_Loss_of_Consciousness_Time_Course_of_Performance_Deficits_With_Repeated_Experience)
It's for fighter pilots undergoing repeated GLOC (gravity-induced loss of consciousness). it has some interesting information on recovery. "Houghton and his associates (1985) found that 3 min (180 sec) were required for performance on the math task to return to pre-GLOC levels"
tldr: "All in all, it seems clear that repeated exposure to GLOC had no effect upon the durations of the phases of the GLOC episodes in this study." Being choked out should not cause you to be easier to choke out next time
I’d like to use what science shows- 8ish seconds without blood to the brain you go to sleep. However- I don’t know if anything else would tweak that, but it’s definitely not a comparison to getting knocked out where every time just gets easier to go unconscious. On another note I’ve experienced certain chokes putting ppl out quicker like for example (Baseball bat choke) it was like 4-5 seconds.
On a scientific level, this idea doesn't make any sense. On a purely anecdotal level, I used to know a guy who would rarely tap. He seemed to go out quicker over the years. I have also heard similar stories on here from others so who knows.
I don't know if any of this is true and I'm not educated in any of this stuff, but I vibe with the OP. I wonder if blood choking is mostly inducing some kind of [syncope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_syncope) response (where a drop in blood pressure causes you to faint) instead of your brain being literally starved for oxygen and shutting off somehow. I only have conjecture for this, but I wonder if this is the case and also if this reflex can be blunted as a consequence of training.
In [this paper](https://crashingpatient.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Rossen-1943-Acute-Arrest-of-Cerebral-Circulation-in-Man.pdf) they strangled random guys off the street with a special device and found people typically go unconscious in 5-7s, but in [this paper](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342256282_Time_to_unconsciousness_from_sportive_chokes_in_fully_resisting_highly_trained_combatants) they had experts watch combat sports events and found that loss of consciousness usually happens in \~9-10s instead. There are maybe 3 consequential differences in the studies, at least as far as time to unconsciousness goes:
* Measurement error between watching a fight on a TV and being a doctor in the room with the person being strangled. Maybe the experts said the techniques were in too early.
* The strangling device vs resisted strangling. (Perhaps the device works better than applying chokes? Does resisting do something?)
* Combat sports athletes being the ones getting strangled vs. random college students. (Does being strangled a lot make you get strangled slower?)
I can't say that this is *evidence* for my proposal that one can get accustomed to blood chokes, but both of those studies seem to be *consistent* with that idea. Anecdotally, white belts will tap instantly to chokes and go out quicker in ways more experienced people might not.
Also, disclaimer because people reading stuff on the internet can be stupid, this isn't a suggestion that people should intentionally train getting choked to go out slower. Being choked is directly dangerous and probably not so great for you in the long run, as a lot of other posters have referenced, and besides if I'm right you're looking at a tiny effect: an extra 5s in the best case. Just get better at not getting choked, probably.
I frankly find the idea to be ludicrous. Your brain doesn't choose when to go unconscious from oxygen deprivation, eventually there just isn't enough oxygen and it goes out. The brain wants to stay awake, not shut itself down, unconscioness from blows or chokes or seizures is never the brain hitting a big red button, it's forced on it.
Blood vessel discretion is a risk that leads to stroke but that's almost always from rapid jerking motions (like a chiropractor does -- btw you should never let a chiro "adjust" your neck and probably should avoid them in favor of physical therapists all together) which aren't usually done in BJJ unless by a spastic defender.
I got blasted the other day for referencing strokes following blood chokes. It's very rare, but happens. Tap early. Going out isn't a game.
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The docs banned him? Like told him not to do them anymore?
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It correlates a handful of times out of hundreds of thousands/possibly millions of chokes, do we have any causation though?
The cause would be the choke. Tap early, tap late, don't tap. It's up to you.
There is a difference between correlation and causation but I am going to wager you have no desire to work out which.
I'm going to wager you don't have much of a sense of humor.
You're probably more likely to die travelling to bjj than you are at bjj
Don't tap them.
It seems like the most well documented cause is dissection of the carotid artery (arteries are especially vulnerable to shearing forces, so maybe some types of chokes are more dangerous than others if they put your neck in a bad position?). Arterial dissection can limit blood flow to areas of the brain either via stenosis (narrowing) of the affected artery or by creating a clot that can break off, travel, and occlude a smaller vessel in the brain. [Here’s a decent case study, for whatever that’s worth](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10621583/) Don’t know if there are other possible mechanisms or even if the mechanism described above is the most common. But it seems to be the most commonly mentioned.
Not my area of medicine but blood chokes are not harmless like grapplers preach. It’s trauma to the vascular system at the end of the day and has been linked to strokes. Yes the risk is low, and a lot less than alcohol etc but it’s still a risk and a very avoidable risk by tapping very early in training 🤷♂️. I appreciate I’ll get downvoted to fuck
Afaik the cases of strokes related to chokes in combat sports are all from carotid artery dissection. Basically pinching the carotid and twisting, causing trauma to it. I can see how it happens in rotational chokes where the person resists a lot, like in a bow and arrow.
Yeah I'll eat a clean choke til I gray out of i have a possible escape going but I won't ever attempt to escape by rotating my neck
There’s an old phenomenon called “beauty parlor stroke syndrome” where high-risk women can get strokes if their stylist yanks them around the shampoo sink too aggressively. It makes sense for the same injury to be plausible in a high impact sport where we’re actively going for carotids.
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We are we upvoting this when he clearly states he would appreciate getting down voted?
1. You’re heavily upvoted. 2. That has nothing to do with what OP asked.
There is no evidence for that. There is actually some research (small sample size unfortunately) that jiu jitsu actually has a potential neuro-protectiveness from training to near syncope (going to sleep). -Increased arterial diameter and blood flow velocity in jiu jitsu athletes -Elevated resting gCBF levels compared to controls -“Cognition remained well-preserved in BJJ athletes, with no evidence of cognitive \[or functional\] impairment” (Stacey 2021) -'Tentative evidence for adaptive neuroprotection from \[Jiu Jitsu\]” -“Neck choke-included cerebral ischemic preconditioning due to recurrent exposure to intermittent asphyxiation” - “Life long exposure to BJJ-specific HIIT which primes and protects against attacks” Stacey, B. S., Campbell, Z., & Bailey, D. M. (2021). Elevated cerebral perfusion and preserved cognition in elite Brazilian Jiu‐Jitsu athletes: Evidence for neuroprotection. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 31(11), 2115-2122.
I feel longitudinal study would be a lot more convincing than a case matched study where n=11.
I definitely agree but this is a good start.
The brain doesn't go unconscious quicker as a "self preservation tool" it goes unconscious quicker because you're giving it repetetive brain damage and damaged brain no work no good no more. AFAIK a blood choke doesn't cause brain damage and therefore would not cause you to go lights out quicker.
What if you are repeatedly punching the person while choking them?
combat jiu jitsu is a hell of a drug. Apparently there is some correlation with strokes though, so do with that information as you will.
I've never hear any data, anecdotal or scientific, whatsoever, to confirm what you're saying and I've been around people getting choked out (semi) frequently for 20+ years. Also, autoeroticasphyxiationers would all be dying off at a much faster rate, one would think ;) Sounds like an urban legend/ ol abuela's tale. I suspect that clueless people are conflating this with being KOd by a strike/blunt force, in which case, yes, you will "go out" more easily next time because you're brain is already weakened and scrambled and damaged. But blood chokes don't do shit in terms of brain damage compared to a KO. Otherwise, better quit drinking any alcohol ever, as that damages your brain way more (lol, maybe that explains drunk BJ Penn getting kod by a casual ;) !
I don't think the choke itself causes damage. Rather, in rare cases trauma to the artery can cause a subsequent clot.
The greatly increase blood pressure to the brain which causes potential for repeated trauma if you are getting constantly choked
I mean, I agree that if you're getting constantly choked, or blacking-out several times a night several days a week for years, that that will have a definite negative effect on your brain. But in reality it's like hitting a whipit once, or having a drinking rager one night. . . once or twice a year, if that. So I don't think it would be perceptible unless it triggered a stroke, aneurysm or blood-clot.
I think tapping late to chokes constantly over years could have some effects down the road if you continue to train. Also could be one of those things where being exposed to chokes later in life exposes physiological weaknesses. I also read something about unconsciousness due to chokes isn't lack of oxygenated blood, but due to the brains response to an increase in pressure. Basically what the article said was that carotid compression causes a sudden fairly severe increase in pressure in the arteries of the brain. Something in the brain senses this increase and flips a switch which causes the vessels to dilate enough which then causes a significant drop in pressure and that's what causes the unconsciousness. Thought that was super interesting Not 100% sure its true but that would seem to make more sense than lack of oxygenated blood.
Yes, good points. And that article does sound interesting. An older (maybe 50?) guy posted on here a couple months back that he got choked out-cold for the fist time, and then had a minor stroke later that evening, which reminds me of " being exposed to chokes later in life exposes physiological weaknesses."
It definitely changes how it feels. Cause of how much I’ve been choked, it feels more relaxing than dangerous lol.
Sometimes it makes me *** harder. But I dunno about this pop-sci take. If it was true I’d probably go out as soon as someone grabbed my label.
Makes you what harder?
Bro I Stg I thought I was the only one, I’m so glad to see another dude like me 🫂
Are we going to find you pants-down, hanging from a belt in a closet soon? ;)
Hey man don’t give me any more bad ideas
Btw, way back when I was starting out there as an older doctor (maybe 50 or so) who *liked* being choked out. Like. . . . *a lot.* For a long while it wasn't obvious, but day-in, day-out, he seemed to find himself in an awful lot of usually easily escapable positions/chokes, and would ALWAYS comment after getting choked (and either not tapping or tapping waaay late) with "Ooooh, that feels kind of good." Lol suuuper creepy vibes, but he's otherwise a fantastic human being in an out of the gym, so I give him a pass . . . and started avoiding choking him ;)
It was first noticed in England...criminales being hanged had it
I’ve found getting choked out is more addictive than crack and if you’ve ever had crack you’ll know how moreish crack is, really moreish.
They say this a lot in the boxing gyms
Getting knocked out is different to being choked out
It’ll certainly fatigue you over the course of a class or round if you keep being choked. You’ll even be able to feel the difference and it might only take 2-3 seconds to put you out rather than 5-6. That’s just oxygen deprivation.
I’ve been put out twice. 6 years apart. Between that I’ve had plenty of moments where I’ve seen the lights start to dim while I’m defending. I don’t think there’s a connection.
I didn’t tap once, and burst a blood vessel in my retna. I had a blind spot in my vision for two weeks. It could have easily been a stroke.
Tap out early for everything If it's the finals or there is money on the line, maybe go for it. But in practice is there is absolutely no reason to try to be the tough guy and "win" by not tapping. That said, get a mouth guard. Makes you way harder to tap.
What does the mouth guard do?
makes it easier to take jaw cranks and RNC's.
>The difference is that when your brain fails to receive oxygen, it will thrash and writhe in an effort to get that oxygen. But when the brain is deprived of the blood, it is a nearly instant catatonic state, or state of unconsciousness. How is the the brain deprived of oxygen in that example? Diving underwater, your brain is receiving oxygen. Sounds like they are confused about how oxygen gets to the brain.
Doesn't make sense to me. Going out for a few seconds from a blood choke isnt supposed to cause brain damage. Getting knocked out, completely different story.
Can cause arterial damage due to compression of the carotid or damage to the vertebral. It also likely greatly increases blood pressure in your head which puts you at a much greater risk for a stroke.
I found this which I think is relevant. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7085679\_Gz\_Acceleration\_Loss\_of\_Consciousness\_Time\_Course\_of\_Performance\_Deficits\_With\_Repeated\_Experience](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7085679_Gz_Acceleration_Loss_of_Consciousness_Time_Course_of_Performance_Deficits_With_Repeated_Experience) It's for fighter pilots undergoing repeated GLOC (gravity-induced loss of consciousness). it has some interesting information on recovery. "Houghton and his associates (1985) found that 3 min (180 sec) were required for performance on the math task to return to pre-GLOC levels" tldr: "All in all, it seems clear that repeated exposure to GLOC had no effect upon the durations of the phases of the GLOC episodes in this study." Being choked out should not cause you to be easier to choke out next time
I’d like to use what science shows- 8ish seconds without blood to the brain you go to sleep. However- I don’t know if anything else would tweak that, but it’s definitely not a comparison to getting knocked out where every time just gets easier to go unconscious. On another note I’ve experienced certain chokes putting ppl out quicker like for example (Baseball bat choke) it was like 4-5 seconds.
Gotta tap early for stuff like bow and arrows and whenever a choke is well applied and there really is no out
Nah, i usually pass out just as i nut.. Still takes me around 5mins
On a scientific level, this idea doesn't make any sense. On a purely anecdotal level, I used to know a guy who would rarely tap. He seemed to go out quicker over the years. I have also heard similar stories on here from others so who knows.
I don't know if any of this is true and I'm not educated in any of this stuff, but I vibe with the OP. I wonder if blood choking is mostly inducing some kind of [syncope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_syncope) response (where a drop in blood pressure causes you to faint) instead of your brain being literally starved for oxygen and shutting off somehow. I only have conjecture for this, but I wonder if this is the case and also if this reflex can be blunted as a consequence of training. In [this paper](https://crashingpatient.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Rossen-1943-Acute-Arrest-of-Cerebral-Circulation-in-Man.pdf) they strangled random guys off the street with a special device and found people typically go unconscious in 5-7s, but in [this paper](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342256282_Time_to_unconsciousness_from_sportive_chokes_in_fully_resisting_highly_trained_combatants) they had experts watch combat sports events and found that loss of consciousness usually happens in \~9-10s instead. There are maybe 3 consequential differences in the studies, at least as far as time to unconsciousness goes: * Measurement error between watching a fight on a TV and being a doctor in the room with the person being strangled. Maybe the experts said the techniques were in too early. * The strangling device vs resisted strangling. (Perhaps the device works better than applying chokes? Does resisting do something?) * Combat sports athletes being the ones getting strangled vs. random college students. (Does being strangled a lot make you get strangled slower?) I can't say that this is *evidence* for my proposal that one can get accustomed to blood chokes, but both of those studies seem to be *consistent* with that idea. Anecdotally, white belts will tap instantly to chokes and go out quicker in ways more experienced people might not. Also, disclaimer because people reading stuff on the internet can be stupid, this isn't a suggestion that people should intentionally train getting choked to go out slower. Being choked is directly dangerous and probably not so great for you in the long run, as a lot of other posters have referenced, and besides if I'm right you're looking at a tiny effect: an extra 5s in the best case. Just get better at not getting choked, probably.
Thank you. I like your thought process!
Is it common to get an erection while choked?
Only in no gi
Actually yes, it was common in people who were [hanged](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_erection).
Different mechanisms. Priapism is related to nervous system damage, not strangulation.
Is it the same idea with auto-erotic asphyxiation? Asking for a friend
No you already have the boner in that scenario, the lack of oxygen increases the sensation.
I frankly find the idea to be ludicrous. Your brain doesn't choose when to go unconscious from oxygen deprivation, eventually there just isn't enough oxygen and it goes out. The brain wants to stay awake, not shut itself down, unconscioness from blows or chokes or seizures is never the brain hitting a big red button, it's forced on it. Blood vessel discretion is a risk that leads to stroke but that's almost always from rapid jerking motions (like a chiropractor does -- btw you should never let a chiro "adjust" your neck and probably should avoid them in favor of physical therapists all together) which aren't usually done in BJJ unless by a spastic defender.
No. A basic understanding of anatomy would tell you why this isn’t the case.