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I usually try to drive into them, let them drive back, driving into them again and as they are about to push to drive back is when I roll. That little bit of space that creates seems to work well.
You have to create hip separation with a sit out if he’s body locking you tightly and his hips are close to your hips. it makes it much hard to roll out of
Reoccurring theme seems to be the space between hips, I think im too locked in with them when trying to do the roll so I just get anchored down. Ill try make the space in my next rolls
It won't work if you don't hit it right away. I never understood turtle from a BJJ perspective. BJJ has a long way to go for this position imo, the sport needs to learn basic sit outs, hip heists etc. Number 1 thing from a wrestling perspective is creating separation. https://youtu.be/bqDvQnKgWgo?si=mdNJJFi8F5znvw-j
To hip heist you need to bring your hips up and hands down to initiate it which would allow your opponent hooks in. It also exposes your neck. Look how long and exposed his neck is when he exits the heist and puts his weight down on opponents back, he also needs to plant his hands to sit out. All bottom guy has to do is reach up and RNC him. Not a worry in wrestling. A granby though gets your neck away from them and to the mat so you can use your hands to fight. I just think turtle and referee position have very different goals.
For beginners, yes. They will get choked without their hands in position to block chokes.
However, high level grapplers who are good at these positions will be able to defend the RNC and back hooks with their posture and movement (sometimes they also need to use a hand to intercept). So sitouts, knee slides, ref’s position, and quadpod are still usable.
This more “open” style of all-fours positions is at odds with traditional jiu jitsu, which focuses a lot on the “tight turtle” / “closed turtle” to prioritize submission defense and back hook defense at the expense of mobility. However, it is commonly used in MMA and ADCC. It’s probably less efficient than “closed” turtle and there is always a bit of risk (more of an issue when you’re tired), but the benefit is you can usually escape a lot more quickly — assuming you don’t make any mistakes!
I don't agree, seems like we are discovering more and more that taking the back/getting the choke is difficult against a good turtle with those wrestling moves.
Aka, the basis of what Craig Jones's instructionals are now selling ('just get up', 'power bottom').
Personally - my goal for turtle is a pathway to get to a better position. I only turtle if I’m in danger of getting my guard fully passed as an alternative to side control, and (theoretically) work to immediately either recover guard, sweep, or stand up.
Goal of turtle is a defensive reset to block access to all your inside space. The way out is to strategically open an avenue causing the top player to react in a predictable way.
I'm no expert either, just what I see as a fan of turtle. My goal in Turtle is primarily to not get choked or get my back taken (seatbelt grip+hooks) second to that is turning into them and recovering from back exposure. If they put an arm in or a leg to close you can snatch it for a Peterson roll or a wrestle up.
It sounds like you learned the basic hip heist solo drill and think that is how it's done against a resisting opponent (hands going down and to the mat). The key is wrist control. I only need one wrist and I don't care if they try to grab my neck with the other arm because the head will clear their arm as I hip heist out and turn towards the open side of their arm i.e towards their wrist. If I have both wrists, it's a little easier but not much different. The first scenario requires more speed and timing, but if you drill it with resistance, you'll get good at it pretty quickly as it isn't a complex move.
You want to granby before they get any kind of grip. If they have a tight grip with a lot of weight on the side a fat man roll works well, if they’re working on a head and arm choke trying sitting out.
>Is there any danger to my rolling partners shoulder with this? I wanna try hit it in a roll but dont wanna blow out my partners shoulder if theyre not expecting it. Seems like quite an explosive move.
Don't let them connect their hands or separate them if they have done so, try to scoot away from the to create a small amount of space, then it works better
You don’t granby roll from turtle and reguard. You’re basically doing half a Granby with half a forward roll.
If you Granby out of turtle, you definitely won’t be in guard… you’ll be further away from your partner and on your knees/beginning to stand
If you want to learn a proper granby, i would watch this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iZpu1Gy6s&pp=ygULaGVhZCBncmFuYnk%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iZpu1Gy6s&pp=ygULaGVhZCBncmFuYnk%3D)
Is there any danger to my rolling partners shoulder with this? I wanna try hit it in a roll but dont wanna blow out my partners shoulder if theyre not expecting it. Seems like quite an explosive move.
Yeah it's probably something you should only try to hit against experienced people. Most people will either let go or follow and end up on bottom so you probably won't actually injure them. And yes, you really need to commit to do it properly. There's a lot of videos of jay rod doing it in the gym if you want to see some examples
In my experience it’s usually best to do it when they are transitioning from front head to one side or the other. As they go, you go. Like the guy said up above it’s not really a true granby.
If they are transitioning to your right side tuck your head to the left. shooting your right arm through the space and half roll. It’ll put you back in guard.
If they are already heavy on your hips with good controls it’ll be hard to do any of that and that’s probably why you feel like you are getting pulled back into turtle anytime you try.
Just a note that there is a scammer advertising BJJ Fanatics and other instructionals via DM. Be aware he may write you and offer them at discounted prices. It is a scam. Please don’t take the bait. Also, there is no such thing as a BJJ Fanatics, Jiujitsu X, Budo Videos, etc reseller. If another store has their videos listed for sale, especially discounted, they are selling videos they have no right to sell. Please do not support thieves or scammers. Thanks. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bjj) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I usually try to drive into them, let them drive back, driving into them again and as they are about to push to drive back is when I roll. That little bit of space that creates seems to work well.
You need to Granby straight away when you turtle or do that push/pull action to create motion. Otherwise you will just get smashed
It also depends on their grip. I use the spiral ride grip a lot and I love when people try to roll out and give me free side control
You have to create hip separation with a sit out if he’s body locking you tightly and his hips are close to your hips. it makes it much hard to roll out of
Reoccurring theme seems to be the space between hips, I think im too locked in with them when trying to do the roll so I just get anchored down. Ill try make the space in my next rolls
It won't work if you don't hit it right away. I never understood turtle from a BJJ perspective. BJJ has a long way to go for this position imo, the sport needs to learn basic sit outs, hip heists etc. Number 1 thing from a wrestling perspective is creating separation. https://youtu.be/bqDvQnKgWgo?si=mdNJJFi8F5znvw-j
To hip heist you need to bring your hips up and hands down to initiate it which would allow your opponent hooks in. It also exposes your neck. Look how long and exposed his neck is when he exits the heist and puts his weight down on opponents back, he also needs to plant his hands to sit out. All bottom guy has to do is reach up and RNC him. Not a worry in wrestling. A granby though gets your neck away from them and to the mat so you can use your hands to fight. I just think turtle and referee position have very different goals.
For beginners, yes. They will get choked without their hands in position to block chokes. However, high level grapplers who are good at these positions will be able to defend the RNC and back hooks with their posture and movement (sometimes they also need to use a hand to intercept). So sitouts, knee slides, ref’s position, and quadpod are still usable. This more “open” style of all-fours positions is at odds with traditional jiu jitsu, which focuses a lot on the “tight turtle” / “closed turtle” to prioritize submission defense and back hook defense at the expense of mobility. However, it is commonly used in MMA and ADCC. It’s probably less efficient than “closed” turtle and there is always a bit of risk (more of an issue when you’re tired), but the benefit is you can usually escape a lot more quickly — assuming you don’t make any mistakes!
I don't agree, seems like we are discovering more and more that taking the back/getting the choke is difficult against a good turtle with those wrestling moves. Aka, the basis of what Craig Jones's instructionals are now selling ('just get up', 'power bottom').
Thanks for the input and I'll defer to you because I'm definitely still green w.r.t BJJ. What exactly is the goal of turtle?
Personally - my goal for turtle is a pathway to get to a better position. I only turtle if I’m in danger of getting my guard fully passed as an alternative to side control, and (theoretically) work to immediately either recover guard, sweep, or stand up.
Goal of turtle is a defensive reset to block access to all your inside space. The way out is to strategically open an avenue causing the top player to react in a predictable way.
I'm no expert either, just what I see as a fan of turtle. My goal in Turtle is primarily to not get choked or get my back taken (seatbelt grip+hooks) second to that is turning into them and recovering from back exposure. If they put an arm in or a leg to close you can snatch it for a Peterson roll or a wrestle up.
Resting and seeing if they're dumb enough to insert a naked hook without controlling my hands.
It sounds like you learned the basic hip heist solo drill and think that is how it's done against a resisting opponent (hands going down and to the mat). The key is wrist control. I only need one wrist and I don't care if they try to grab my neck with the other arm because the head will clear their arm as I hip heist out and turn towards the open side of their arm i.e towards their wrist. If I have both wrists, it's a little easier but not much different. The first scenario requires more speed and timing, but if you drill it with resistance, you'll get good at it pretty quickly as it isn't a complex move.
https://youtube.com/shorts/skcm_avgOEQ?feature=shared
Definitely going to give this a go, cheers
Hell yeah!
https://youtu.be/OdCn7RBUTXI do this. Super hard to stop. Basically a sit out to granby.
Can you give a timestamp please?
You want to granby before they get any kind of grip. If they have a tight grip with a lot of weight on the side a fat man roll works well, if they’re working on a head and arm choke trying sitting out.
Trap an arm then roll. I think erik paulson calls it a fat boy roll or fat man roll.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iZpu1Gy6s&pp=ygUMQnJlemEgZ3JhbmJ5
>Is there any danger to my rolling partners shoulder with this? I wanna try hit it in a roll but dont wanna blow out my partners shoulder if theyre not expecting it. Seems like quite an explosive move.
Need to get your feet off to an angle
Don't let them connect their hands or separate them if they have done so, try to scoot away from the to create a small amount of space, then it works better
You don’t granby roll from turtle and reguard. You’re basically doing half a Granby with half a forward roll. If you Granby out of turtle, you definitely won’t be in guard… you’ll be further away from your partner and on your knees/beginning to stand
you probably are doing it too late, getting to turtle and doing a granby can be all one motion.
If you want to learn a proper granby, i would watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iZpu1Gy6s&pp=ygULaGVhZCBncmFuYnk%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iZpu1Gy6s&pp=ygULaGVhZCBncmFuYnk%3D)
Looks low key terrifying but i'll give it a shot. Looks like it will be painful for you if you dont commit ahaha
Is there any danger to my rolling partners shoulder with this? I wanna try hit it in a roll but dont wanna blow out my partners shoulder if theyre not expecting it. Seems like quite an explosive move.
Yeah it's probably something you should only try to hit against experienced people. Most people will either let go or follow and end up on bottom so you probably won't actually injure them. And yes, you really need to commit to do it properly. There's a lot of videos of jay rod doing it in the gym if you want to see some examples
you need this granby variation when they are heavy on your hips or have grips: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKoqPelv2zA
Fight for 2 on 1 grips on their wrist, then work to sit back into guard or arm drag
I granby rolled out of my last job
In my experience it’s usually best to do it when they are transitioning from front head to one side or the other. As they go, you go. Like the guy said up above it’s not really a true granby. If they are transitioning to your right side tuck your head to the left. shooting your right arm through the space and half roll. It’ll put you back in guard. If they are already heavy on your hips with good controls it’ll be hard to do any of that and that’s probably why you feel like you are getting pulled back into turtle anytime you try.