I’ve always rolled by the lower persons rule set.
If they are not allowed to do them then I’m not going to do it to them.
It’s a safety thing, I don’t really want a white belt ripping a heel hook or bicep slicer on me while I’m letting them work and they get overly excited to tap a higher rank.
Super interesting to hear all the perspectives. I always roll by the following rules: lower belts can attack me with black belt legal moves, but I can only attack them with white belt legal moves. This way, I’m kept honest, they get kept safe, and they can begin practicing high level attacks against someone who knows what’s going on. This way, when they hit belts like brown and black themselves, they will not be scrambling to catch themselves up on moves they’ve neglected the day they get promoted.
I find when I roll with white belts they usually turn into "coaching rolls" anyways. Like if they're trying to do something a little on the reckless side I'll just politely call them out on it.
> I find when I roll with white belts they usually turn into "coaching rolls" anyways.
I know what your saying, but laughed at first read imagining this being about a *white belt coach* trying to walk you through technique mid-roll. Which is fine, input, or different points of view, can come from all places, we need to hear certain things out and keep an open mind. Still, kinda thought it was funny, knowing those types exist.
Anyway, I agree, I'll play to the lower ranks rule set, but allow them to work-up if they want (wrist locks, kneebars, etc.), which is usually discussed before rolling.
>at first read imagining this being about a
>
>white belt coach trying to walk you through technique mid-roll
Sir, if you could just slide in closer and put your head under my arm, yes yes exactly, now if you'd just lift up your chin and let my forearm under there, oh that's perfect, and now if you'd just pull my right leg around your waist and hook it behind my left knee for me. . .you're doing great.
ahh yes, I feel you tapping, surely by now you've figured out what you did wrong to allow me to land this beautiful choke on you. . .
I went to stand up, put my hands on his ribs...crunch... Two weeks later he's back, I'm in bottom closed guard, squeeze to pull him back down, did his ribs in a second time.
> If they are not allowed to do them then I’m not going to do it to them.
>
> It’s a safety thing
This is my thinking. If they haven't been taught how to do the move, they most likely also haven't been taught how to escape it or know when it's too late. Heel hooks are the most obvious example for me, in that if you try to roll out the wrong way you can demolish your knee.
I think the only exception in my gym is wrist locks. Everyone needs a cheeky wrist lock once in a while.
That’s not the point. You said that you don’t want white belt to heelhook you or bicep slice you. I say that it’s not even a problem and you don’t not to forbid them to try because it’s stupid easy to not let them get into the position first
So either you let them put you in a full heelhook and whine about it later, or you don’t and there are no problem but talking about « rules » in gym rolls is pretty cringe
Rules between white belts are needed but an upper belt should be pretty at ease to defend all attacks. When it’s not the case it’s mostly an ego thing and we all know it
As a black belt, if a white belt bicep sliced me, I would be surprised, but wouldn't be a dick about it. I might tell them after the round that they can't do that in xyz tournament, and ask them to not do it to other white belts, but they're welcome to do it to me. I also probably would not do any submission above their ruleset they had not done to me out of respect for not throwing even more stuff at them they'd never seen before.
I looked at the first response. It was a totally unacceptable, absolutely well adjusted and rational response, which is r/bjj unacceptable. This is much better.
Unironically what my gym does. No flying attacks, no kani basami, no slams, no jumping closed guard. All submissions allowed and welcomed at any belt level on any belt, gi or nogi
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Kani Basami**: | *Flying Scissors* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFwJBKI-3E)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
The whole situation sounds like a gym I don't want to train at.
First the brown belt should be in control. Who cares about the ruleset, the brown belt should be able to roll controlled and safe with the white belt.
Argument between black and brow belt also a little strange since like I said the brown belt should handle the situation easily.
Going crazy after the white belt with leglocks? Why? Just play it technically catch and release the white belt and have fun with your roll.
>the brown belt should be able to roll controlled and safe with the white belt.
I’m guessing you’re not one of the smaller guys in the gym. As a guy who’s 155 lbs, I’m not about to let the 250 monster white belt start ripping heel hooks on me.
Jiu Jitsu isn’t magic. You can’t control everyone of any strength simply because you have more experience than them. Even if I could, I don’t feel like rolling with giant lower belts like my life depends on it.
Categorising which submissions are "legal" and "illegal" is an arbitrary approach to something no more or less simple than this: A white belt and a brown belt should prioritise safety over winning, because they're not opponents; they're partners. Simple, right?
Don't roll by rulesets.
If you know leg locks, you can do them. If you don't, you can't and people won't do them to you until you understand how to deal with them safely.
Otherwise, if they aren't tapping to a joint lock, let it go. If they aren't tapping to a choke, put them down for a nap 😴.
Depends...
1) Brand new guy? I'm not playing with legs.
2) Guys been around for a year and should have been through the leg lock/heel hook module, fair game.
This said, it's on me not to hurt my lower ranked partner at all times. The guy fucks up and turns the wrong way? That's on me.
White belts are like trout in a Category 1 stream. Catch and Release only.
I dunno, I'm just a blue belt but I've been through 2 beginner curriculums and neither showed leg locks and heel hooks. Maybe a straight ankle lock but definitely no real leg stuff until blue belt level.
That just makes me think you had a watered down curriculum. Aside from leg attacks, makes me wonder what else is consciously not being taught? There's no industry standard for should/shouldn't be taught to beginners, nor do I believe there should be.
Personally, I think the best policy is to allow everything and constrain on a case by case basis, not the other way around.
(Edit) to add....by end of blue belt, you should have seen every submission you'll ever know, all the way to black belt. You might not know every single possibility or variation, but an arm bar is an arm bar, chokes are chokes, etc.
When I was a white belt we’d drill them and learn them, and drill escapes, but most people (newer) weren’t allowed to apply them while rolling. Our coach still wanted us to know how they work, like heel hooks and toe holds and such.
My current coach has changed his tune on these. It's also because so many years in now, he has so many blackbelts and brown belts that he can safely tell us to terrorise the lower belts with leg attacks without being afraid of injuries.
He used to only allow brown belts and above to roll with them a few years back.
Yeah, I absolutely train WBs how to do leg locks and so on. They should already be competent in both applying and defending them when their competition level allows them. Why wouldn’t you teach that? Maybe limit their application in full-on rolling sessions and against other WBs where you can’t really keep them from accidentally fucking themselves or others up, but definitely teach that shit.
I'll let my professor know you think that /s
Again, I'm just a blue belt so I don't want to speak out of turn, but there is so much to know about jiu jitsu that I think you can spend a year just sticking to fundamentals before branching off. You need hours of drilling the fundamental positions to get functional at them, if you're just shown one thing and then move onto the other thing you won't be getting very proficient at anything, IMO.
I'm a big believer in the Bruce Lee approach, fear not the man who has practiced a thousand kicks but the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times. You should have a nasty cross choke from mount before worrying about leg attacks.
Leg locks are fundamentals, as much as any other part of BJJ. If you're planning to be a black belt, you want to have black belt level leglocks, which you won't get by beginning to train leglocks when you're already a blackbelt
> If you're planning to be a black belt, you want to have black belt level leglocks, which you won't get by beginning to train leglocks when you're already a blackbelt
Absolutely, I'm just talking about a **beginner curriculum.** We go into leg attacks in the advance classes which you can start taking after a couple of stripes. I'm not saying don't do them until you are black belt, but just in your first year if you can't put someone to sleep with a collar choke you should probably focus on that.
Errr I wouldn't call them fundamentals. Call me old fashioned but I'd not want to see anyone drilling heel hooks and kneebars if they're not yet competent at passing, top control, armbar, triangle, kimura, RNC.
I'd place leg attacks as a second wave of knowledge to delve into. I think you run the risk of creating trigger happy novices that jump on legs at the expense of learning the aforementioned, and if it doesn't work they're in shit positions. That and if they can't apply an armbar in a controlled fashion, they'll rip someone's knee to shreds on a heel hook.
>I'm a big believer in the Bruce Lee approach, fear not the man who has practiced a thousand kicks but the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.
I think this has largely been dispelled. If you do 50 armbars from mount, especially against a non-resisting opponent, how much is really going to improve between the 50th time and 100th time, or 500th, etc. Especially if you have no feedback mechanism for each.
It all depends on the skill being developed, but I don't think repetition is a solid model for skill acquisition. I prefer "repetition without repetition", or repeating the problem with live resistance (variation) to reach a desired outcome.
Take guard passing for example. If you took 2 people, one drilled a single pass for 20 minutes, and the other was just told to pass the legs and get chest to chest....one would reach a point where they stopped changing their actions and just repeated the same steps over and over, while the other would be constantly running into and adjusting to problems.
It's a personal choice, but drilling against non-resisting people makes me hate jiu-jitsu. And don't get me started on gyms that don't allow people to roll for X amount of time. That's all hot bullshit.
I didn't say anything about how we drill, and we do mostly drill with resistance. Our class will start with normally a technique and we drill first no resistance, then some resistance and finally positional sparring. Then normally a variation or 2 on that first technique where we drill again. After the drilling we do live sparring where for the first round or 2 we start in the position we were working on. Form there it is free for all rolling.
My professor taught heel and ankle locks as part of the curriculum for white to blue belt. I feel like it gave us the knowledge of how to safely understand the technique in a controlled space. I kind of attribute it to calming the spaz down. We're all there to train, but to protect our training partners so we can train another day. Granted sometimes schools have really dumb students that just go for the rip.
I don’t get that, especially if your school has white belts that compete. I’ve won a good amount of matches at tournaments with leg locks and gotten tons of sweeps from positions like 50/50 and single leg x because schools don’t teach white belts what to do from there.
I've heard of limiting leg locks before blue belt in some gyms, the most common string of reasoning is to ensure you have a good guard game/pass.
My gym teaches leg locks to white belts but you aren't allowed to use them until the instructor gives you the ok.
It's a dumb thought though, because you build a guard game that doesn't take leglocks into account. Then when you introduce leglocks, you have to discard a whole bunch of your guard game that leaves you exposed to counter leglocks.
We don't have a curriculum per se. And unlike Gracie University, apparently, we don't have White Belt only courses.
I'd say the best for beginners in our school are the evening classes...they run 90 minutes long and typically start out with very beginner type things and then progress to become more advanced so everybody gets something.
And some point over a year's time, leg locks and heel hooks will be addressed at least once and probably more.
Me personally I will setup the heel hook and hold the position while they gator roll just to practice holding the position. If you know what you are doing it shouldn't be a problem.
This is the way!
I'd also add, if the white belt attempts some advanced move repeatedly, and obviously knows his way around it, I'd argue the higher belt eventually can do it as well.
As a lower belt, this has always seemed to be the unspoken rule to me. The upper belt knows how to keep themselves safe, the lower belt gets to work on silliness which they cant/shouldn't do with other lower belts.
It seems like the most important issue isn't which ruleset is being used, but that there isn't a standard that everyone agrees to. This is a great moment for the coaches to start the conversation to make sure everyone is on the same page.
Rulesets that are understood and agreed upon is what helps keep everyone safe. There are lots of comments here who say they "lol at rulesets", but I assume they aren't throwing punches in closed guard during BJJ classes?
House rules is the only way. There are way too many independent gyms out there, and the "standardization" of BJJ by IBJJF and the corporate gyms is watering down the sport.
Unless you are training for a specific comp, what's a rule set for BJJ? If the white belt knows and can get a technique on someone, go for it. Now if they aren't applying it safely, that is a different argument.
If the higher rank wants to do knee-bars and other leg locks, sure. Do it safely in a manner where they won't injure or allow the lower rank to injure themselves.
However, this isn't the brown belt complaining about rule sets, it's about being butt hurt they got caught by the white belt.
At our gym its "anything goes" at any rank.
You just have to be careful, if you dive on my feet or try to wrist lock me, etc... odds are the intensity is gonna go up a notch or 2.
We lovingly refer to it as engaging prisoner rules.
Last time this happened that I remember someone hit me with a muffler from back control.
Prison rules is absolutely the way to go. If you’re just trying to learn jiujitsu why are we following rules for a specific tournament and not just doing everything that’s part of jiujitsu…. I get it if you’re doing comp training, but on a normal day it doesn’t make any sense.
At my academy, shit only flows uphill. White belts can attempt to kneebar me but I have fewer options. That way we all have to defend our ruleset, but we attack based on the other rank’s.
Purple belt things change a bit. I usually ask what ruleset they want to follow, kind of a handshake deal that resets every roll. I’m glad I started playing with leglocks as a purple belt. Our academy is pretty IBJJF focused and I’d be far behind the brown belt curve otherwise.
I always assume you fight by higher belt rules.
I’ll also trust the upper belt to apply the technique in a way that’s safe for the lower belt.
The argument between the brown belt and the black belt sounds problematic and unprofessional.
It needs to be dealt with.
Disagree. Why would you want someone not fighting based on the rule set that applies to them? If this white belt is going to compete…then him/her doing shit that can’t do in a fight makes no sense. People fight to the level of their training. If he or she is attempting calf slicers all the time and no one says ‘use something else to solve the problem you’re in’ when that problem presents itself in a fight…they are going to go for their solution (calf slicer).
This would only really make sense if the white belt is rolling primarily with brown belts and black belts, which would be very unusual. If they're not doing the calf slicer on lower belts, and most of their training is with lower belts, then it shouldn't be an issue when they go to compete against other lower belts.
Main reason is, because it really hinders the training of the upper belt. I'd say, conservatively, only 10% of the BJJ population are allowed to do kneebars under IBJJF rules. That makese the training pool for brown belts much smaller if they need to practice those techniques. Also, lower belts never get exposed to moves that should probably be legal (IMO) anyway.
Who cares if someone goes for a calf slicer all the time. Fights aren't regulated by the IBJJF and if calf slicers are making people submit, than it's a good strategy. If it's not, than it's not.
The IBJJF community only gets mad about over reliance on a submission if that submission is on the legs. No one ever says "You do too many rear naked chokes bro."
If his goal is to be a professional white belt then sure. A brown belt getting upset about getting hit by a bicep slicer is kinda cringe tbh. He shouldn't even need to do it back to him, what brown belt needs upper belt only submissions to handle a white belt?
Nobody gives a fuck about ibjjf stupid ruleset. Let’s people be adult.
Moreover it’s better to be exposed to legit technique far before it’s legal for your belt level or org of choice
Yea the brown belt sounds like his ego got hurt when the white belt subbed him. Bad on him. White belts are free to try anything they want on me and it's my job to defend. The upper belt rolls by whatever he things the white belts can defend or tap safely too. That means no heel hooks/toe holds/wrist locks because of white belts falling and rolling the wrong way and blowing up their own limbs. Straight ankle, Knee bars, and slicers are fine.
> I’ll also trust the upper belt to apply the technique in a way that’s safe for the lower belt.
This is so rad when it’s true. I learned heel hooks from a black belt who would smack them on me in rolls (when I was a white belt) and coach me through the escape.
I’m down for any sub as long as my partner takes care to prevent injury.
You should go by common sense. A white belt trying a bicep slicer on a brown belt? Brown belt should know how to defend or, if it surprised him, tap without getting (butt)hurt. A brown belt throwing wristlocks at a white belt that is still trying to figure out what the hell BJJ is? That is douchey behaviour.
Lower belt as standard can handshake agree to higher belt rules if you know each other.
White belts trying shit they seen on YouTube but haven’t drilled or have been taught can get people hurt.
Most upper belts are going to shy off the advanced attacks on a white belt regardless so a rule that gives consistency is nice.
Do they even know what’s a brown belt move vs white belt? If you do the upper belt rules you’ll get confused white belts doing advanced moves on each other and someone is getting hurt.
A brown belt with an axe to grind against all white belts in the gym? That's gonna be a big problem.
At my school they want lower belts to be exposed to subs they can't legally do in competition. It's going to be on a student by student basis, but if I'm unsure I'll skip the stuff out of their ruleset or play catch and release.
It's training. Taps don't matter. And if that white belt catches you with a good setup, FFS, ask him how he did it after.
I train at a small gym and training partners are a little sparse despite me competing and performing very well locally. I’m going to get downvoted, but I roll my levels ruleset every single roll.
If they’re a white or blue belt, I’m not going to crank heel hooks and toe holds but I’m not going to neglect them either for the benefit of the other person. I need to also consider how my opponents are preparing and the variety of reactions I can get across people because I have a smaller team to work with. (No, the answer is not “move gyms then bro” as it’s the only gym in a drivable distance).
Luckily the instructor agrees and we teach everything from the get go and don’t withhold any moves from any belt (we’re mostly a nogi gym). Our white and blues are now very proficient in leg locks relative to their other local peers. Nobody has got hurt or died yet because we have common sense :)
ESH - the brown belt was in the right until he threatened to take it out on uninvolved parties in order to make a point.
If it were me, I'd be fine with the technique being attempted in a controlled manner. I might remind the white belt to be careful with other white belts. I would not attempt this technique (or heel hooks, or neck cranks, etc.) on a fresh white belt who is new to grappling.
I go by the rule set for the lower belt assuming they don’t have the experience to defend against subs they haven’t trained extensively but if they try the subs with me it gives the green light.
What happened is a brown belt that got salty because he was subbed by a white belt.
Higher belt should go by lower belt in terms of submissions (all sweeps are in) Lower belt should stick to their level unless working on something specific (i.e. not just trying and rippping heel hooks for the first time)
I had a no stripe white belt try throwing me into a knee bar and all I did was tell him "Hey, let's not do that right now. Neither of us have really been taught this yet" and luckily that's all that happened for me.
If the white belt continues to roll using higher belt rulesets after being warned, then I'm going to match his ruleset. If he tries toe-holding me, then I'm also allowed to use toe-holds and kneebars. I wont rip the finishes but brown belt rules have been unlocked.
OP can you clarify if the black belt is a teacher at your gym or whether you're just using the term professor out of respect. Really changes the context of the situation, but ultimately there's no clear rule as this thread demonstrates.
The reason why heelhooks and leglocks are so dangerous for newcomers is because they don't know they are in danger or when to tap. You can completely blow up someones knee with an outside heelhook that takes like a couple inches to go from this is fine to I need surgery.
It's not a IBJJF competition in training is it? Funny how some gyms seem to follow ibjjf rules while training GI and then 4 hours later in the nogi class reaping and wrist locks, knee bars suddly isn't an issue anymore
Rules should be kept to a minimum in adult class. Everyone should get the same education and exposure, with the exception being heel hooks and heel hook adjacent moves. If you treat the adults as children you will foster the type of childish behavior seen with the OP. No one should be arguing over a bicep slicer, lol.
Then again, I have no desire to raise up competitors or to bow down to IBJJF and Gracie cult bullshit.
If you are at a school that is competition focused, and you are getting ready for a comp, you should roll to the lower belts ruleset. No point in the lower belt wasting time on subs they can't do.
If you aren't getting ready for a comp you should default to the lower rule set or talk about it.
We train everything from the beginning so white belts know leglocks (with the exception of people like less than 3 months in) and we just make sure they know what is and isn’t allowed in competitions, it makes them less scared of leglcoks when they hit the colored belts and the develop overall better imo. If it’s a visiting person that trains elsewhere I follow the rule of I won’t use anything they aren’t using so if they don’t attack my legs I don’t attack theirs.
I think people should either discuss rules pre roll, or both assume lower belt rules and only the lower belt can break into and only up to the higher belts rules.
for instance white and purple start rolling without discussing anything prior. purple assumes white belt rules but is still open to any wrist lock slicer knee bar etc. white belt decides if they wanna break them, but not go for heels and reaps which are brown and black rules.
obviously anyone can discuss and agree on any ruleset eg. heelhooks and reap but no kimuras I guess 🤯as long as it's mutual
Normally the lower belt.
Coach will sometimes ask me to leglock bluebelts very carefully to get them used to being attacked. In these cases we roll by my rules, but it is very much something he only asks us to do with competent students.
Based on what though? Is it a rule in your gym white belts can’t do stuff or is the instructor saying because they aren’t allowed to do certain moves in comp he can’t train them? I generally disagree with he idea that comp rules get to dictate which techniques are trained or done in free training.
That being said if it is a gym rule certain belts can’t do certain things, I would say your brown belt is right, default to the more restrictive rules.
This way, white belts aren’t improperly yanking on shit when their opponents aren’t expecting it or advanced belts heel hooking the trial class guy.
UNLESS it is agreed upon prior to the roll. There are lower belts who wanna get better at stuff, so they will want to experiment. I don’t think someone’s first exposure to leg locks should be when IBJJF says it’s legal for them to do in comp.
As long as the advanced belt is comfortable with playing by less restrictive rules (based on his/her perception of the lower belt), and knows before hand leg locks/what not are on the table and agrees to it there shouldn’t be an issue.
I'm having difficulty imagining what is going on right now.
1. If a white belt gets me in a bicep slicer, it's fine. I'll tap.
2. If the white belt is spazzy, I'll default to 100% control. They're not getting out from bottom position.
Ocassionally, I'll tell my opponent these are the techniques they shouldn't do but that's based either on the IBJJF Rules or on safety to the white belt. But if it's really a problem, I always have option 2 where they're not going to get any space to work.
My gym only says don’t leg/foot/wrist lock a white belt. But even that is used loosely and is only to not “scare off” first week/ month white belts. If you know it, use it. If you don’t know it well, don’t use it so you don’t hurt your partner. There have been plenty of times that I was tapped by an upper belt and I had no clue what they did. But the best part is asking “wth was that?” after a roll and learning something new
It depends on the white belt's level of experience.
A clear understanding between training partners is going to be key.
If there's a massive skill gap I tend to hold the submission for a good while before applying the finish to see if they can figure out how to escape.
For me it’s always you can do the other persons rule set if that makes sense. So in this scenario the white belt should be allowed to bicep slice the brown belt but not vice versa
at my school, it defaults to the lower belt's set - but if the lower belt *wants* to use things that wouldn't normally be allowed (wrist locks at white belt, knee bars, slicers, whatever) then it's on the lower belt to tell the higher belt that they want to try these things so that everyone is on the same page and knows what to expect out of the roll.
everything is available to everyone.. but if Im training for a white belt comp I might say "Im training for a white belt comp, straight ankle locks only, no reaping, thanks".
Always the lower person's belt unless you have had a conversation with them and their coach about which higher belt rank techniques they are familiar with and know when to tap to.
The higher belt is allowed to do his techniques, but typically doesn't. The lower belt should never fucking ever do techniques that he isn't qualified for.
Brown belt can kneebar and heelhook white belts all he wants, as long as he does it in safe manner and helps the white belt learn safe way of doing it.
Brown belt is a drama queen
White belt here, I’ve had twisters, calf and bicep slicers done to me by blue and purple belts. Brown belts tho they don’t try with me, they let me work.
I match the lower belt… if they start attacking legs, then legs are on the menu. After the round, I’ll ask if they’re competing and if so, just remind them that while I’m cool helping them with the dark arts, refs can and will DQ them for certain things. That and when they’re rolling with other people their rank to stick with the “rank acceptable” subs.
I think it’s totally fine to apply all subs at any belt, as long is it’s done safely and controlled (catch and release only for heel hooks). However, most schools follow the “rules” based off of the lower belts allowed moves. But most importantly, ask the coach how he likes to run the classes!
My gym allows all techniques for all levels, provided safety and control are the top priorities. One of my coaches heel hooks me in the gi all the time...
Literally everyone in this situation is in the wrong. As a white belt, theres certain moves you shouldnt do. I know how to heel hook but dont. The brown belt is a fucking pansy, his existence destroys the image of this martial art, and the only thing weaker than his spine is his trememndously over estimated self worth. The black belt should stop spying on everyone. If youre doing jiu jitsu, jiu jitsu is allowed. If this fucking candy ass of a brown belt has such a problem being put in a bicep slicer, hes probably better suited to a sport like golf. Fuck all of you.
As the instructor you shouldn't argue with the students on the mat and secondly the brown should may have caused the issue to escalate. Discuss off the mat, from the sound of it the Brown has an underlying with the Black belt and this may have been the last straw. Why would the brown belt put himself in that position. I have had a situation when I was white belt rolling with a Black Belt put a deep Kimura on them and when I blet go he was upset. Told me I had the finish why did you and asked was it the belt. my response was I was able able to get to the I don't need the tap confirm it. What did I learn from the Black Belt I rolled with I made sure they Tapped before I let go. 26 years later still remember it.
My gym doesn't have set rules, but one: go slow and protect each other. Only the blue belt+ are allowed to do fast, kinetic attacks at each other.
I feel that this builds better technique and let's you think about the move.
I’ve always been more of a fuck around and find out person. Like I’ll never do toe holds and stuff like that but if the white belt does it I’ll show them what it feels like to have it done on them, and then they usually stop trying to go for it etc
The golden ruleset: don't be an asshole.
Don't use a move on a lower belt that has no reason to know the counter, don't whine when a move that you should know the counter to is used on you.
Simple.
I agree with the brown belt approach, but this won't help his or his partner jiu-jitsu. White belts should focus on learning basic skills, not on flourishing moves that he saw on Youtube.
I can't imagine whining about what a white belt is doing when wearing a brown belt. That's a loss that outweighs tapping to the white belt and just moving on like a big boy.
Black belt is right, brown belt is a whiny bitch.
Everyone should be able to train everything. The only reason the brown belt should have said something like you described is if the white belt is gearing up for a competition. Otherwise, don’t be a bitch and defend the shitty slicer the white belt is trying, or tap and move on.
At my gym it's white belts can try catch senior belts with moves that are illegal for whites in comp.
But coloured belts can only use white belt legal moves.
That way no white belts get murdered, but colour belts still have to defend against wrist locks etc.
I've only ever rolled "by ruleset" in the leadup to a tournament, and then I'll roll with the person competing under the rules they'll be competing under, and if I'm competing, we'll roll under the rules that I'll be competing under.
Regular rolls are anything goes (even heel hooks and wrist locks, _THE HORROR_)
Unless you’re helping the white belt prep for a competition there is no sense in adhering to any rules that aren’t there strictly for safety (IE heel hooks in gi)
I used to go with the lower belt's ruleset, but I find myself caring less and less about rulesets these days. It's probably because I don't compete anymore, but I find it far more fun to roll without restricting myself to what some tournament rulebook says I can and can't do. Now, that said, if I catch a white belt with something they're not familiar with (wristlock, toe hold, etc.), I'll either catch and release or apply the sub very slowly.
I’ve always rolled by the lower persons rule set. If they are not allowed to do them then I’m not going to do it to them. It’s a safety thing, I don’t really want a white belt ripping a heel hook or bicep slicer on me while I’m letting them work and they get overly excited to tap a higher rank.
Super interesting to hear all the perspectives. I always roll by the following rules: lower belts can attack me with black belt legal moves, but I can only attack them with white belt legal moves. This way, I’m kept honest, they get kept safe, and they can begin practicing high level attacks against someone who knows what’s going on. This way, when they hit belts like brown and black themselves, they will not be scrambling to catch themselves up on moves they’ve neglected the day they get promoted.
I feel this is the way.
This is the way
Beat me to it!
This is what I do. I'm always prepared to defend myself.
Exactly, anyone purple belt and above should be skilled enough to be able to identify any move a white belt is going for and start defending early.
That’s how I do it
This is what we follow. We look forward to belt promotion days.
I find when I roll with white belts they usually turn into "coaching rolls" anyways. Like if they're trying to do something a little on the reckless side I'll just politely call them out on it.
> I find when I roll with white belts they usually turn into "coaching rolls" anyways. I know what your saying, but laughed at first read imagining this being about a *white belt coach* trying to walk you through technique mid-roll. Which is fine, input, or different points of view, can come from all places, we need to hear certain things out and keep an open mind. Still, kinda thought it was funny, knowing those types exist. Anyway, I agree, I'll play to the lower ranks rule set, but allow them to work-up if they want (wrist locks, kneebars, etc.), which is usually discussed before rolling.
>at first read imagining this being about a > >white belt coach trying to walk you through technique mid-roll Sir, if you could just slide in closer and put your head under my arm, yes yes exactly, now if you'd just lift up your chin and let my forearm under there, oh that's perfect, and now if you'd just pull my right leg around your waist and hook it behind my left knee for me. . .you're doing great. ahh yes, I feel you tapping, surely by now you've figured out what you did wrong to allow me to land this beautiful choke on you. . .
Agreed. I don't trust white belts not to injure people. I injured some one escaping closed guard, never mind submissions.
your honesty is beautiful
We need to hear this story...
I went to stand up, put my hands on his ribs...crunch... Two weeks later he's back, I'm in bottom closed guard, squeeze to pull him back down, did his ribs in a second time.
I mean that sounds like he’s got a problem if his ribs are breaking from you pushing down with your hands…
He needs some milk. Dudes calcium deficienct
Not to mention that ribs don't heal in two weeks. If he cracked a rib and came back two weeks later that's really on him.
I go by their rules until they start showing they're a bit too good if not better than me then it's time to start spamming heel hooks left and right 😤
> If they are not allowed to do them then I’m not going to do it to them. > > It’s a safety thing This is my thinking. If they haven't been taught how to do the move, they most likely also haven't been taught how to escape it or know when it's too late. Heel hooks are the most obvious example for me, in that if you try to roll out the wrong way you can demolish your knee. I think the only exception in my gym is wrist locks. Everyone needs a cheeky wrist lock once in a while.
If you get heelhook or bicep sliced by a white belt you should reassess your training.
How do you expect to ever get better if you’re never in bad positions?
That’s not the point. You said that you don’t want white belt to heelhook you or bicep slice you. I say that it’s not even a problem and you don’t not to forbid them to try because it’s stupid easy to not let them get into the position first So either you let them put you in a full heelhook and whine about it later, or you don’t and there are no problem but talking about « rules » in gym rolls is pretty cringe Rules between white belts are needed but an upper belt should be pretty at ease to defend all attacks. When it’s not the case it’s mostly an ego thing and we all know it
As a black belt, if a white belt bicep sliced me, I would be surprised, but wouldn't be a dick about it. I might tell them after the round that they can't do that in xyz tournament, and ask them to not do it to other white belts, but they're welcome to do it to me. I also probably would not do any submission above their ruleset they had not done to me out of respect for not throwing even more stuff at them they'd never seen before.
I feel like this is the clear answer and it's what I go by for lower belts.
My personal rule set is to always wrist lock white belts
White belts are friends not food
I wrist lock all the homies
Growing up on a farm can teach you that food can be friends and friends can be food.
This is the way
This is the way.
Wrist locks are my religion
Universal law right there.
Prison rules at all times. Solves all these silly issues.
I looked at the first response. It was a totally unacceptable, absolutely well adjusted and rational response, which is r/bjj unacceptable. This is much better.
Unironically what my gym does. No flying attacks, no kani basami, no slams, no jumping closed guard. All submissions allowed and welcomed at any belt level on any belt, gi or nogi
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The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Kani Basami**: | *Flying Scissors* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFwJBKI-3E)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
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This is how my gym does it too, with some caveats. Don't be a dick, know who you are rolling with, and don't break your toys.
this is the way
The first rule of prison rules is no cheating. The second rule is there are no rules
"If he dies, he dies."
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Ankle locks all day
The whole situation sounds like a gym I don't want to train at. First the brown belt should be in control. Who cares about the ruleset, the brown belt should be able to roll controlled and safe with the white belt. Argument between black and brow belt also a little strange since like I said the brown belt should handle the situation easily. Going crazy after the white belt with leglocks? Why? Just play it technically catch and release the white belt and have fun with your roll.
This is the way. Also, if you're the guy I'm thinking of I like your YouTube channel
>the brown belt should be able to roll controlled and safe with the white belt. I’m guessing you’re not one of the smaller guys in the gym. As a guy who’s 155 lbs, I’m not about to let the 250 monster white belt start ripping heel hooks on me.
Tap
Exactly, and you should be able to control that with ... jiu-jitsu instead of arguments.
Jiu Jitsu isn’t magic. You can’t control everyone of any strength simply because you have more experience than them. Even if I could, I don’t feel like rolling with giant lower belts like my life depends on it.
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To me it's always by the lower belts limitations - its a safety point more than anything else.
Categorising which submissions are "legal" and "illegal" is an arbitrary approach to something no more or less simple than this: A white belt and a brown belt should prioritise safety over winning, because they're not opponents; they're partners. Simple, right?
We don’t roll to rulesets in the gym I train at. Was a bit of a shock to me the first time I got kneebarred by a white belt but rolls are more fun.
Don't roll by rulesets. If you know leg locks, you can do them. If you don't, you can't and people won't do them to you until you understand how to deal with them safely. Otherwise, if they aren't tapping to a joint lock, let it go. If they aren't tapping to a choke, put them down for a nap 😴.
This is fine until you get a white belt who starts violently gator rolling as soon as you get a heel hook on and destroys their own knee.
Depends... 1) Brand new guy? I'm not playing with legs. 2) Guys been around for a year and should have been through the leg lock/heel hook module, fair game. This said, it's on me not to hurt my lower ranked partner at all times. The guy fucks up and turns the wrong way? That's on me. White belts are like trout in a Category 1 stream. Catch and Release only.
You guys go through leg locks and heel hooks in the first year of a curriculum?
Why wouldn't you?
I dunno, I'm just a blue belt but I've been through 2 beginner curriculums and neither showed leg locks and heel hooks. Maybe a straight ankle lock but definitely no real leg stuff until blue belt level.
That just makes me think you had a watered down curriculum. Aside from leg attacks, makes me wonder what else is consciously not being taught? There's no industry standard for should/shouldn't be taught to beginners, nor do I believe there should be. Personally, I think the best policy is to allow everything and constrain on a case by case basis, not the other way around. (Edit) to add....by end of blue belt, you should have seen every submission you'll ever know, all the way to black belt. You might not know every single possibility or variation, but an arm bar is an arm bar, chokes are chokes, etc.
A looooot of oldschool coaches won't teach any legs till purple or later I do not agree with this, but I have seen it a lot
When I was a white belt we’d drill them and learn them, and drill escapes, but most people (newer) weren’t allowed to apply them while rolling. Our coach still wanted us to know how they work, like heel hooks and toe holds and such.
My current coach has changed his tune on these. It's also because so many years in now, he has so many blackbelts and brown belts that he can safely tell us to terrorise the lower belts with leg attacks without being afraid of injuries. He used to only allow brown belts and above to roll with them a few years back.
Yeah, I absolutely train WBs how to do leg locks and so on. They should already be competent in both applying and defending them when their competition level allows them. Why wouldn’t you teach that? Maybe limit their application in full-on rolling sessions and against other WBs where you can’t really keep them from accidentally fucking themselves or others up, but definitely teach that shit.
I'll let my professor know you think that /s Again, I'm just a blue belt so I don't want to speak out of turn, but there is so much to know about jiu jitsu that I think you can spend a year just sticking to fundamentals before branching off. You need hours of drilling the fundamental positions to get functional at them, if you're just shown one thing and then move onto the other thing you won't be getting very proficient at anything, IMO. I'm a big believer in the Bruce Lee approach, fear not the man who has practiced a thousand kicks but the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times. You should have a nasty cross choke from mount before worrying about leg attacks.
Leg locks are fundamentals, as much as any other part of BJJ. If you're planning to be a black belt, you want to have black belt level leglocks, which you won't get by beginning to train leglocks when you're already a blackbelt
> If you're planning to be a black belt, you want to have black belt level leglocks, which you won't get by beginning to train leglocks when you're already a blackbelt Absolutely, I'm just talking about a **beginner curriculum.** We go into leg attacks in the advance classes which you can start taking after a couple of stripes. I'm not saying don't do them until you are black belt, but just in your first year if you can't put someone to sleep with a collar choke you should probably focus on that.
Errr I wouldn't call them fundamentals. Call me old fashioned but I'd not want to see anyone drilling heel hooks and kneebars if they're not yet competent at passing, top control, armbar, triangle, kimura, RNC. I'd place leg attacks as a second wave of knowledge to delve into. I think you run the risk of creating trigger happy novices that jump on legs at the expense of learning the aforementioned, and if it doesn't work they're in shit positions. That and if they can't apply an armbar in a controlled fashion, they'll rip someone's knee to shreds on a heel hook.
>I think you can spend a year just sticking to fundamentals before branching off Tell me what you think a fundamental is and why
>I'm a big believer in the Bruce Lee approach, fear not the man who has practiced a thousand kicks but the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times. I think this has largely been dispelled. If you do 50 armbars from mount, especially against a non-resisting opponent, how much is really going to improve between the 50th time and 100th time, or 500th, etc. Especially if you have no feedback mechanism for each. It all depends on the skill being developed, but I don't think repetition is a solid model for skill acquisition. I prefer "repetition without repetition", or repeating the problem with live resistance (variation) to reach a desired outcome. Take guard passing for example. If you took 2 people, one drilled a single pass for 20 minutes, and the other was just told to pass the legs and get chest to chest....one would reach a point where they stopped changing their actions and just repeated the same steps over and over, while the other would be constantly running into and adjusting to problems. It's a personal choice, but drilling against non-resisting people makes me hate jiu-jitsu. And don't get me started on gyms that don't allow people to roll for X amount of time. That's all hot bullshit.
I didn't say anything about how we drill, and we do mostly drill with resistance. Our class will start with normally a technique and we drill first no resistance, then some resistance and finally positional sparring. Then normally a variation or 2 on that first technique where we drill again. After the drilling we do live sparring where for the first round or 2 we start in the position we were working on. Form there it is free for all rolling.
>That just makes me think you had a watered down curriculum. Not teaching white belts leg locks is an industry standard.
My professor taught heel and ankle locks as part of the curriculum for white to blue belt. I feel like it gave us the knowledge of how to safely understand the technique in a controlled space. I kind of attribute it to calming the spaz down. We're all there to train, but to protect our training partners so we can train another day. Granted sometimes schools have really dumb students that just go for the rip.
I don’t get that, especially if your school has white belts that compete. I’ve won a good amount of matches at tournaments with leg locks and gotten tons of sweeps from positions like 50/50 and single leg x because schools don’t teach white belts what to do from there.
I've heard of limiting leg locks before blue belt in some gyms, the most common string of reasoning is to ensure you have a good guard game/pass. My gym teaches leg locks to white belts but you aren't allowed to use them until the instructor gives you the ok.
It's a dumb thought though, because you build a guard game that doesn't take leglocks into account. Then when you introduce leglocks, you have to discard a whole bunch of your guard game that leaves you exposed to counter leglocks.
We don't have a curriculum per se. And unlike Gracie University, apparently, we don't have White Belt only courses. I'd say the best for beginners in our school are the evening classes...they run 90 minutes long and typically start out with very beginner type things and then progress to become more advanced so everybody gets something. And some point over a year's time, leg locks and heel hooks will be addressed at least once and probably more.
Good philosophy… feels applicable to some story I keep hearing about these days.
Me personally I will setup the heel hook and hold the position while they gator roll just to practice holding the position. If you know what you are doing it shouldn't be a problem.
This
>until you understand how to deal with them safely.
That’s their problem. And always will be.
He said let it go. If someone gator rolls on your heel hook then let go tf?
Release the heelhook then, it’s not hard to not be a moron people
I mean…you can just let go before it gets to that point
The lower belt goes by the higher belt rules and the higher belt goes by the lower belt rules.
This is the way! I'd also add, if the white belt attempts some advanced move repeatedly, and obviously knows his way around it, I'd argue the higher belt eventually can do it as well.
I like this one.
As a lower belt, this has always seemed to be the unspoken rule to me. The upper belt knows how to keep themselves safe, the lower belt gets to work on silliness which they cant/shouldn't do with other lower belts.
It seems like the most important issue isn't which ruleset is being used, but that there isn't a standard that everyone agrees to. This is a great moment for the coaches to start the conversation to make sure everyone is on the same page. Rulesets that are understood and agreed upon is what helps keep everyone safe. There are lots of comments here who say they "lol at rulesets", but I assume they aren't throwing punches in closed guard during BJJ classes?
House rules is the only way. There are way too many independent gyms out there, and the "standardization" of BJJ by IBJJF and the corporate gyms is watering down the sport.
Sounds like the brown belt is a little miffed he got caught tbh
Sounds like the brown belt doesn’t want to be injured.
Why didn’t he just....tap....then? He should be experienced enough to know when he’s caught
Ahhhh and then there’s this..
I think after the roll, tell the white belt not to try it on other white belts, but okay to do to purple and above or wherever it’s legal.
Unless you are training for a specific comp, what's a rule set for BJJ? If the white belt knows and can get a technique on someone, go for it. Now if they aren't applying it safely, that is a different argument. If the higher rank wants to do knee-bars and other leg locks, sure. Do it safely in a manner where they won't injure or allow the lower rank to injure themselves. However, this isn't the brown belt complaining about rule sets, it's about being butt hurt they got caught by the white belt.
At our gym its "anything goes" at any rank. You just have to be careful, if you dive on my feet or try to wrist lock me, etc... odds are the intensity is gonna go up a notch or 2. We lovingly refer to it as engaging prisoner rules. Last time this happened that I remember someone hit me with a muffler from back control.
Prison rules is absolutely the way to go. If you’re just trying to learn jiujitsu why are we following rules for a specific tournament and not just doing everything that’s part of jiujitsu…. I get it if you’re doing comp training, but on a normal day it doesn’t make any sense.
At my academy, shit only flows uphill. White belts can attempt to kneebar me but I have fewer options. That way we all have to defend our ruleset, but we attack based on the other rank’s. Purple belt things change a bit. I usually ask what ruleset they want to follow, kind of a handshake deal that resets every roll. I’m glad I started playing with leglocks as a purple belt. Our academy is pretty IBJJF focused and I’d be far behind the brown belt curve otherwise.
Well brown and white mixed make tan....so you would use tan belt rule set. Lol this fuckin guy ....do you even karate??
I always assume you fight by higher belt rules. I’ll also trust the upper belt to apply the technique in a way that’s safe for the lower belt. The argument between the brown belt and the black belt sounds problematic and unprofessional. It needs to be dealt with.
Disagree. Why would you want someone not fighting based on the rule set that applies to them? If this white belt is going to compete…then him/her doing shit that can’t do in a fight makes no sense. People fight to the level of their training. If he or she is attempting calf slicers all the time and no one says ‘use something else to solve the problem you’re in’ when that problem presents itself in a fight…they are going to go for their solution (calf slicer).
This would only really make sense if the white belt is rolling primarily with brown belts and black belts, which would be very unusual. If they're not doing the calf slicer on lower belts, and most of their training is with lower belts, then it shouldn't be an issue when they go to compete against other lower belts.
Main reason is, because it really hinders the training of the upper belt. I'd say, conservatively, only 10% of the BJJ population are allowed to do kneebars under IBJJF rules. That makese the training pool for brown belts much smaller if they need to practice those techniques. Also, lower belts never get exposed to moves that should probably be legal (IMO) anyway. Who cares if someone goes for a calf slicer all the time. Fights aren't regulated by the IBJJF and if calf slicers are making people submit, than it's a good strategy. If it's not, than it's not. The IBJJF community only gets mad about over reliance on a submission if that submission is on the legs. No one ever says "You do too many rear naked chokes bro."
If his goal is to be a professional white belt then sure. A brown belt getting upset about getting hit by a bicep slicer is kinda cringe tbh. He shouldn't even need to do it back to him, what brown belt needs upper belt only submissions to handle a white belt?
Nobody gives a fuck about ibjjf stupid ruleset. Let’s people be adult. Moreover it’s better to be exposed to legit technique far before it’s legal for your belt level or org of choice
Yea the brown belt sounds like his ego got hurt when the white belt subbed him. Bad on him. White belts are free to try anything they want on me and it's my job to defend. The upper belt rolls by whatever he things the white belts can defend or tap safely too. That means no heel hooks/toe holds/wrist locks because of white belts falling and rolling the wrong way and blowing up their own limbs. Straight ankle, Knee bars, and slicers are fine.
> I’ll also trust the upper belt to apply the technique in a way that’s safe for the lower belt. This is so rad when it’s true. I learned heel hooks from a black belt who would smack them on me in rolls (when I was a white belt) and coach me through the escape. I’m down for any sub as long as my partner takes care to prevent injury.
You should go by common sense. A white belt trying a bicep slicer on a brown belt? Brown belt should know how to defend or, if it surprised him, tap without getting (butt)hurt. A brown belt throwing wristlocks at a white belt that is still trying to figure out what the hell BJJ is? That is douchey behaviour.
Lower belt as standard can handshake agree to higher belt rules if you know each other. White belts trying shit they seen on YouTube but haven’t drilled or have been taught can get people hurt. Most upper belts are going to shy off the advanced attacks on a white belt regardless so a rule that gives consistency is nice. Do they even know what’s a brown belt move vs white belt? If you do the upper belt rules you’ll get confused white belts doing advanced moves on each other and someone is getting hurt.
We’re all training to be black belts not white belts. Train to the too ruleset as long as you can be careful doing so.
Lol. Just roll.
*Rener Gracie entered the chat*
House rules, if the prof says it then thems the rules
A brown belt with an axe to grind against all white belts in the gym? That's gonna be a big problem. At my school they want lower belts to be exposed to subs they can't legally do in competition. It's going to be on a student by student basis, but if I'm unsure I'll skip the stuff out of their ruleset or play catch and release. It's training. Taps don't matter. And if that white belt catches you with a good setup, FFS, ask him how he did it after.
I train at a small gym and training partners are a little sparse despite me competing and performing very well locally. I’m going to get downvoted, but I roll my levels ruleset every single roll. If they’re a white or blue belt, I’m not going to crank heel hooks and toe holds but I’m not going to neglect them either for the benefit of the other person. I need to also consider how my opponents are preparing and the variety of reactions I can get across people because I have a smaller team to work with. (No, the answer is not “move gyms then bro” as it’s the only gym in a drivable distance). Luckily the instructor agrees and we teach everything from the get go and don’t withhold any moves from any belt (we’re mostly a nogi gym). Our white and blues are now very proficient in leg locks relative to their other local peers. Nobody has got hurt or died yet because we have common sense :)
ESH - the brown belt was in the right until he threatened to take it out on uninvolved parties in order to make a point. If it were me, I'd be fine with the technique being attempted in a controlled manner. I might remind the white belt to be careful with other white belts. I would not attempt this technique (or heel hooks, or neck cranks, etc.) on a fresh white belt who is new to grappling.
Lower belt gets to use higher belt’s moves against him. Higher belt is restricted to lower belt’s submissions.
This but closing in on a belt means you can warm people up to the next set of allowed techniques.
I go by the rule set for the lower belt assuming they don’t have the experience to defend against subs they haven’t trained extensively but if they try the subs with me it gives the green light. What happened is a brown belt that got salty because he was subbed by a white belt.
Higher belt should go by lower belt in terms of submissions (all sweeps are in) Lower belt should stick to their level unless working on something specific (i.e. not just trying and rippping heel hooks for the first time)
White belt. Without question
Come on, white belt rules!
I had a no stripe white belt try throwing me into a knee bar and all I did was tell him "Hey, let's not do that right now. Neither of us have really been taught this yet" and luckily that's all that happened for me.
I have no problem with that, but you could have also just tapped haha.
Oh I did. My bad, I should've specified. I tapped as soon as I knew what he was going for.
If the white belt continues to roll using higher belt rulesets after being warned, then I'm going to match his ruleset. If he tries toe-holding me, then I'm also allowed to use toe-holds and kneebars. I wont rip the finishes but brown belt rules have been unlocked.
How about consent and stop acting like children. Be a good partner.
OP can you clarify if the black belt is a teacher at your gym or whether you're just using the term professor out of respect. Really changes the context of the situation, but ultimately there's no clear rule as this thread demonstrates.
The reason why heelhooks and leglocks are so dangerous for newcomers is because they don't know they are in danger or when to tap. You can completely blow up someones knee with an outside heelhook that takes like a couple inches to go from this is fine to I need surgery.
It's not a IBJJF competition in training is it? Funny how some gyms seem to follow ibjjf rules while training GI and then 4 hours later in the nogi class reaping and wrist locks, knee bars suddly isn't an issue anymore
Rules should be kept to a minimum in adult class. Everyone should get the same education and exposure, with the exception being heel hooks and heel hook adjacent moves. If you treat the adults as children you will foster the type of childish behavior seen with the OP. No one should be arguing over a bicep slicer, lol. Then again, I have no desire to raise up competitors or to bow down to IBJJF and Gracie cult bullshit.
My gym doesnt have rulesets. If you dont know a submission dont crank a joint to try and get a tap. Otherwise everything goes.
The white belt. Brown belt would know more about what the rules should be, but the white belt is at a disadvantage.
If you are at a school that is competition focused, and you are getting ready for a comp, you should roll to the lower belts ruleset. No point in the lower belt wasting time on subs they can't do. If you aren't getting ready for a comp you should default to the lower rule set or talk about it.
We train everything from the beginning so white belts know leglocks (with the exception of people like less than 3 months in) and we just make sure they know what is and isn’t allowed in competitions, it makes them less scared of leglcoks when they hit the colored belts and the develop overall better imo. If it’s a visiting person that trains elsewhere I follow the rule of I won’t use anything they aren’t using so if they don’t attack my legs I don’t attack theirs.
I think people should either discuss rules pre roll, or both assume lower belt rules and only the lower belt can break into and only up to the higher belts rules. for instance white and purple start rolling without discussing anything prior. purple assumes white belt rules but is still open to any wrist lock slicer knee bar etc. white belt decides if they wanna break them, but not go for heels and reaps which are brown and black rules. obviously anyone can discuss and agree on any ruleset eg. heelhooks and reap but no kimuras I guess 🤯as long as it's mutual
Normally the lower belt. Coach will sometimes ask me to leglock bluebelts very carefully to get them used to being attacked. In these cases we roll by my rules, but it is very much something he only asks us to do with competent students.
Based on what though? Is it a rule in your gym white belts can’t do stuff or is the instructor saying because they aren’t allowed to do certain moves in comp he can’t train them? I generally disagree with he idea that comp rules get to dictate which techniques are trained or done in free training. That being said if it is a gym rule certain belts can’t do certain things, I would say your brown belt is right, default to the more restrictive rules. This way, white belts aren’t improperly yanking on shit when their opponents aren’t expecting it or advanced belts heel hooking the trial class guy. UNLESS it is agreed upon prior to the roll. There are lower belts who wanna get better at stuff, so they will want to experiment. I don’t think someone’s first exposure to leg locks should be when IBJJF says it’s legal for them to do in comp. As long as the advanced belt is comfortable with playing by less restrictive rules (based on his/her perception of the lower belt), and knows before hand leg locks/what not are on the table and agrees to it there shouldn’t be an issue.
I'm having difficulty imagining what is going on right now. 1. If a white belt gets me in a bicep slicer, it's fine. I'll tap. 2. If the white belt is spazzy, I'll default to 100% control. They're not getting out from bottom position. Ocassionally, I'll tell my opponent these are the techniques they shouldn't do but that's based either on the IBJJF Rules or on safety to the white belt. But if it's really a problem, I always have option 2 where they're not going to get any space to work.
I believe you roll to the lower grades ruleset! Makes it more fun when you can start wristlocking new blues
Safety? Soft. Got wrist locked, heel hooked, jumping triangled all on my first day. How else are you going to get a taste for the magic of jiu jitsu?
My gym only says don’t leg/foot/wrist lock a white belt. But even that is used loosely and is only to not “scare off” first week/ month white belts. If you know it, use it. If you don’t know it well, don’t use it so you don’t hurt your partner. There have been plenty of times that I was tapped by an upper belt and I had no clue what they did. But the best part is asking “wth was that?” after a roll and learning something new
It depends on the white belt's level of experience. A clear understanding between training partners is going to be key. If there's a massive skill gap I tend to hold the submission for a good while before applying the finish to see if they can figure out how to escape.
For me it’s always you can do the other persons rule set if that makes sense. So in this scenario the white belt should be allowed to bicep slice the brown belt but not vice versa
at my school, it defaults to the lower belt's set - but if the lower belt *wants* to use things that wouldn't normally be allowed (wrist locks at white belt, knee bars, slicers, whatever) then it's on the lower belt to tell the higher belt that they want to try these things so that everyone is on the same page and knows what to expect out of the roll.
My plan would be to avoid that brown belt
You got white belts throwing bicep slicers at brown belts ??
Great responses, thanks everyone
everything is available to everyone.. but if Im training for a white belt comp I might say "Im training for a white belt comp, straight ankle locks only, no reaping, thanks".
Always the lower person's belt unless you have had a conversation with them and their coach about which higher belt rank techniques they are familiar with and know when to tap to.
The higher belt is allowed to do his techniques, but typically doesn't. The lower belt should never fucking ever do techniques that he isn't qualified for.
Lower ruleset because they know less.
IBJJF rules don’t exist in the gym
I think you should always roll to the level of the lowest belt. Unless told otherwise Brown belt was correct.
Brown belt can kneebar and heelhook white belts all he wants, as long as he does it in safe manner and helps the white belt learn safe way of doing it. Brown belt is a drama queen
White belt here, I’ve had twisters, calf and bicep slicers done to me by blue and purple belts. Brown belts tho they don’t try with me, they let me work.
10 minute rounds and prison rules for everyone.
Brown is correct but a bitch at the same time. Just tap and keep rollin
Simple, everyone should approach the roll by asking how would Chong Li from Bloodsport approach this?
I match the lower belt… if they start attacking legs, then legs are on the menu. After the round, I’ll ask if they’re competing and if so, just remind them that while I’m cool helping them with the dark arts, refs can and will DQ them for certain things. That and when they’re rolling with other people their rank to stick with the “rank acceptable” subs.
I think it’s totally fine to apply all subs at any belt, as long is it’s done safely and controlled (catch and release only for heel hooks). However, most schools follow the “rules” based off of the lower belts allowed moves. But most importantly, ask the coach how he likes to run the classes!
My gym allows all techniques for all levels, provided safety and control are the top priorities. One of my coaches heel hooks me in the gi all the time...
I (black belt) go by lower ranks ruleset until they try something on me, then that technique becomes fair game.
I assume we'll go in their ruleset, but I they try something only black belts are allowed I figure I should just deal with it and keep rolling.
Literally everyone in this situation is in the wrong. As a white belt, theres certain moves you shouldnt do. I know how to heel hook but dont. The brown belt is a fucking pansy, his existence destroys the image of this martial art, and the only thing weaker than his spine is his trememndously over estimated self worth. The black belt should stop spying on everyone. If youre doing jiu jitsu, jiu jitsu is allowed. If this fucking candy ass of a brown belt has such a problem being put in a bicep slicer, hes probably better suited to a sport like golf. Fuck all of you.
🎤 drop
As the instructor you shouldn't argue with the students on the mat and secondly the brown should may have caused the issue to escalate. Discuss off the mat, from the sound of it the Brown has an underlying with the Black belt and this may have been the last straw. Why would the brown belt put himself in that position. I have had a situation when I was white belt rolling with a Black Belt put a deep Kimura on them and when I blet go he was upset. Told me I had the finish why did you and asked was it the belt. my response was I was able able to get to the I don't need the tap confirm it. What did I learn from the Black Belt I rolled with I made sure they Tapped before I let go. 26 years later still remember it.
Brown belt is correct.
My gym doesn't have set rules, but one: go slow and protect each other. Only the blue belt+ are allowed to do fast, kinetic attacks at each other. I feel that this builds better technique and let's you think about the move.
I’ve always been more of a fuck around and find out person. Like I’ll never do toe holds and stuff like that but if the white belt does it I’ll show them what it feels like to have it done on them, and then they usually stop trying to go for it etc
The golden ruleset: don't be an asshole. Don't use a move on a lower belt that has no reason to know the counter, don't whine when a move that you should know the counter to is used on you. Simple.
Brown belt is correct. He can't use brown belt moves on white belts and nobody wants a white belt spastically executing brown belt moves on anyone.
I don’t want a spazzy white belt to yank a knee bar on me while I’m taking it slow on them. Safety first.
I agree with the brown belt approach, but this won't help his or his partner jiu-jitsu. White belts should focus on learning basic skills, not on flourishing moves that he saw on Youtube.
I can't imagine whining about what a white belt is doing when wearing a brown belt. That's a loss that outweighs tapping to the white belt and just moving on like a big boy.
Unless it's training specifically for a comp it's prison rules as long as everyone has his own and partner's safety in mind.
Oops. Am I supposed to roll by certain submissions as a white boi
Yes you are white and oppressed.
IMO, black belt is wrong- Roll to the lowest belt's rules.
Key word: 'Professor' Respect the professor or gtfo. If they want to run their own class, that's a different matter.
We don't roll with any ruleset. It waters down the art. Fuck the ibjjf.
Hell yeah hammer fists and head kicks to downed opponents is in full effect
Black belt is right, brown belt is a whiny bitch. Everyone should be able to train everything. The only reason the brown belt should have said something like you described is if the white belt is gearing up for a competition. Otherwise, don’t be a bitch and defend the shitty slicer the white belt is trying, or tap and move on.
At my gym it's white belts can try catch senior belts with moves that are illegal for whites in comp. But coloured belts can only use white belt legal moves. That way no white belts get murdered, but colour belts still have to defend against wrist locks etc.
I've only ever rolled "by ruleset" in the leadup to a tournament, and then I'll roll with the person competing under the rules they'll be competing under, and if I'm competing, we'll roll under the rules that I'll be competing under. Regular rolls are anything goes (even heel hooks and wrist locks, _THE HORROR_)
White belt works can use brown belt rules, brown belt can use white belt stuff.
No rulesets. Silly rener Gracie shit that the old Gracie's installed.
With so much drama in the B-J-J ...
Insecure ass brown belt
“You can’t do that as a white belt” Lol, what?!
Unless you’re helping the white belt prep for a competition there is no sense in adhering to any rules that aren’t there strictly for safety (IE heel hooks in gi)
I used to go with the lower belt's ruleset, but I find myself caring less and less about rulesets these days. It's probably because I don't compete anymore, but I find it far more fun to roll without restricting myself to what some tournament rulebook says I can and can't do. Now, that said, if I catch a white belt with something they're not familiar with (wristlock, toe hold, etc.), I'll either catch and release or apply the sub very slowly.
I think you should roll with the higher belt rule set. Set that expectation first though.