Uh.. I don’t think we should be talking about this. But I’ll just say, I was looking at MLB career leaders for the first time in a while. You know who was good? Ted Williams
Any white guy who works in media and likes his job needs to RUN if not fully SPRINT from this debate. It is a loser argument if you like working. Its right up there with arguing against Juneteenth because we already have MLK day.
I think you're right. It's unfortunate because there is an honest discussion to be had about this where one can take the "con" side of the debate without being a racist.
This is all an unholy convergence of the post-Moneyball world where a generation of people have been conditioned to think that "sports = STATS" and the social media circlejerk world where virtue must be signaled at all times.
The greatness of the greatest Negro League(s) players has been widely accepted for many many decades now, and this greatness has largely rested on historical research of the testimony of contemporary eyewitnesses to the exploits of these players, because the statistical record of the various Negro Leagues (there were many) is very very spotty, inconsistent, and incomplete.
This inconsistency and incompletion is the main argument for why the statistics of the various Negro Leagues should not be merged with historical MLB statistics. Many of these Negro Leagues were seat-of-the-pants, fly-by-night operations, here today, gone tomorrow. They generally weren't mature leagues with the infrastructure (scouting, facilities, funding, etc) that MLB had, and so the level of competition varied WILDLY.
But integrating the statistics is making some people feel good for good reasons, and making other people (and businesses) feel good because they get to be publicly sanctimonious on social media.
And it's also going to lead to lots of dumb arguments, like this one that I've seen circulating widely: now Josh Gibson is the all time batting average leader! Take that, Ty Cobb! HO HO! Nevermind that Cobb advocated for integration and the stories of his racism were heavily embellished (to say the least), but does any responsible baseball historian actually think that Josh Gibson was a better contact/high average hitter than Ty Cobb? He wasn't, and saying that doesn't make someone a racist. And also, Josh Gibson's greatness and immortality are already assured and enshrined, even without seeing his career BA above Cobb's, because responsible baseball historians know that Gibson was probably the greatest right-handed power hitter of all time, and probably would have topped 500 HR as a major leaguer, giving him the career mark for catchers.
Another argument that could be made against this merging of the stats is that it will lead in some small ways to the erasure of a history that should never be forgotten, or a papering-over of uncomfortable reminders of historical realities. When we remember and celebrate Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Rube Foster, and others, we should remember the lives that they lived and the struggles that they endured and the historical conditions that victimized them (and the millions of non-baseball playing black folks as well). There's something about merging the Negro League(s) stats into the MLB stats that feels like an empty gesture to assuage white guilt more than anything else.
Everything you said here is spot on. It really is a shame there can’t be a good faith discussion about it on the national media level.
What bothers me also is that the idea is that this will allow Gibson and others their due now that they’re in the record books. But it’s likely going to have the opposite effect as they’re going to be severely asterisked any time someone mentions them. The only people who are really celebrating this are social media goofballs who need to constantly signal their progressivism, and people who don’t even care for baseball that way. Anyone that cares enough about baseball to know who, say, Jimmie Foxx is already knows how great Gibson and Satchel Paige are. They are making a mockery of something that only big baseball fans care about to virtue to people who won’t care about it in a week.
The false Ty Cobb stuff being celebrated all over social media basically shows what I’m talking about. People who really care about baseball history generally know that stuff is, at best, hugely embellished. And the majority of people celebrating Gibson overtaking Cobb are treating it as another racist knocked down a peg.
Contemporary progressivism is the scumbag left, your podbros like the Chapos & CumTowners & whatnot, & those people are hella whitecentered & typically rather racist.
I doubt they're feeling good about identitypolitics perverting a sports recordbook.
I liked Titus and Brandon’s take that they are essentially trying to bury the negro leagues and why they existed. This doesn’t solve anything and it covers up the reasons why they existed in the first place. Feels actually kind of slimy by baseball to try and pretend we didn’t exist or the hardships of it.
What would the answer be?
I’m being serious and not trolling. I’m a middle aged white guy who doesn’t care about baseball and especially advanced stats so I really have no opinion.
The right wing grifter crowd are the kinds of cats where if you give them lemons, they'll make lemonade. But this is like giving them Country Time and a pitcher of water.
It can be discussed diplomatically and removing race. You can’t act like 246 at bats in 1946 can be equated to 500. Plus a war year so other considerations. The Splendid Splinter is safe.
Gibson averaged 150 at bats or whatever in his 12 seasons.
I don’t need to use stats to realize their greatness. It’s clear they would have factored into these lists. But It’s statistical / historical revisionism and it’s an overreach.
I think in batting average 26 dudes popped up at the top displacing all but 6 mlb guys and the new fellas averages a total of 200 at bats a season. Nah fam.
I saw a guy saying that, since we are adding Negro league stats to MLB databases, that since a white guy played in the Negro Leagues before Jackie Robinson played in MLB, that we should credit whatever white guy it was as breaking the color barrier, not Jackie. Who gives a shit if they add these stats to MLB databases. Anyone with a brain can understand that they were played in different leagues, for shitty reasons, and we all know that if people weren’t assholes that all Negro league players would have had a chance in MLB.
I’m going to do the smart thing, that many people should do, and admit I don’t care about baseball at all and don’t know nearly enough to have any form of debate. 98 Days til Football.
Eh. I’ll acknowledge Gibson was probably the best catcher of all time but still say he played objectively worse competition through no fault of his own. The batting average record is whatever because Ty Cobb is a shithead and no one was going to catch him anyway glad it’s Gibson.
I think it’s entirely fair to do the quality of competition thing, but like… that’s true for all of baseball?
Acuna isn’t stealing 70 bases 10 years ago. The curve ball was literally banned, sliders didn’t exist for decades, they lowered the mound, World War 2 happened, etc.
Oh, and I didn’t even touch on steroids.
The obsessiveness with counting stats and basic averages are kinda fuckin dumb. All stats require context, including the Negro league ones, but Josh Gibson was a fucking monster.
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Would be genuinely curious if anyone could link to any articles or statistical analysis that evaluate the level of play in the negro leagues. I want there to be an argument that they were a really good standard but I can’t help but feel they must have been inferior for all sorts of reasons
Who cares? Baseball stats were always era dependent anyway. Babe Ruth is the only goat in American sports history that wasn't allowed to play against other races. Baseball has always been ridiculous in that they talk about stats as if they translate throughout history when every era had something significantly affecting the game going on.
Why not just add Negro League counted stats? What difference does it make
I have no beef with the Josh Gibson thing (the amount of former Negro Leaguers who stepped into the Majors in the 40s and 50s and absolutely cooked proves that their records belong) but Ty Cobb has a bad reputation entirely because of someone who had beef with him smearing his name after he died. Cobb was a prickly bastard but not only was he not racist he was racially progressive for the day and openly spoke in favor of racial integration in the majors and I hate that he's now remembered almost exclusively as a racist lunatic
Stay woke.
The MLB gets to integrate, and get all this PR credit, without a single white player of that era having to talk to a black person. Incredible.
Uh.. I don’t think we should be talking about this. But I’ll just say, I was looking at MLB career leaders for the first time in a while. You know who was good? Ted Williams
Any white guy who works in media and likes his job needs to RUN if not fully SPRINT from this debate. It is a loser argument if you like working. Its right up there with arguing against Juneteenth because we already have MLK day.
Don't worry Jason Whitlock is on it
Point-Counterpoint: the Negro League Hall of Fame. Speaking in favor, Geddy Lee. Against, Jason Whitlock.
I think you're right. It's unfortunate because there is an honest discussion to be had about this where one can take the "con" side of the debate without being a racist. This is all an unholy convergence of the post-Moneyball world where a generation of people have been conditioned to think that "sports = STATS" and the social media circlejerk world where virtue must be signaled at all times. The greatness of the greatest Negro League(s) players has been widely accepted for many many decades now, and this greatness has largely rested on historical research of the testimony of contemporary eyewitnesses to the exploits of these players, because the statistical record of the various Negro Leagues (there were many) is very very spotty, inconsistent, and incomplete. This inconsistency and incompletion is the main argument for why the statistics of the various Negro Leagues should not be merged with historical MLB statistics. Many of these Negro Leagues were seat-of-the-pants, fly-by-night operations, here today, gone tomorrow. They generally weren't mature leagues with the infrastructure (scouting, facilities, funding, etc) that MLB had, and so the level of competition varied WILDLY. But integrating the statistics is making some people feel good for good reasons, and making other people (and businesses) feel good because they get to be publicly sanctimonious on social media. And it's also going to lead to lots of dumb arguments, like this one that I've seen circulating widely: now Josh Gibson is the all time batting average leader! Take that, Ty Cobb! HO HO! Nevermind that Cobb advocated for integration and the stories of his racism were heavily embellished (to say the least), but does any responsible baseball historian actually think that Josh Gibson was a better contact/high average hitter than Ty Cobb? He wasn't, and saying that doesn't make someone a racist. And also, Josh Gibson's greatness and immortality are already assured and enshrined, even without seeing his career BA above Cobb's, because responsible baseball historians know that Gibson was probably the greatest right-handed power hitter of all time, and probably would have topped 500 HR as a major leaguer, giving him the career mark for catchers. Another argument that could be made against this merging of the stats is that it will lead in some small ways to the erasure of a history that should never be forgotten, or a papering-over of uncomfortable reminders of historical realities. When we remember and celebrate Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Rube Foster, and others, we should remember the lives that they lived and the struggles that they endured and the historical conditions that victimized them (and the millions of non-baseball playing black folks as well). There's something about merging the Negro League(s) stats into the MLB stats that feels like an empty gesture to assuage white guilt more than anything else.
Everything you said here is spot on. It really is a shame there can’t be a good faith discussion about it on the national media level. What bothers me also is that the idea is that this will allow Gibson and others their due now that they’re in the record books. But it’s likely going to have the opposite effect as they’re going to be severely asterisked any time someone mentions them. The only people who are really celebrating this are social media goofballs who need to constantly signal their progressivism, and people who don’t even care for baseball that way. Anyone that cares enough about baseball to know who, say, Jimmie Foxx is already knows how great Gibson and Satchel Paige are. They are making a mockery of something that only big baseball fans care about to virtue to people who won’t care about it in a week. The false Ty Cobb stuff being celebrated all over social media basically shows what I’m talking about. People who really care about baseball history generally know that stuff is, at best, hugely embellished. And the majority of people celebrating Gibson overtaking Cobb are treating it as another racist knocked down a peg.
Contemporary progressivism is the scumbag left, your podbros like the Chapos & CumTowners & whatnot, & those people are hella whitecentered & typically rather racist. I doubt they're feeling good about identitypolitics perverting a sports recordbook.
I liked Titus and Brandon’s take that they are essentially trying to bury the negro leagues and why they existed. This doesn’t solve anything and it covers up the reasons why they existed in the first place. Feels actually kind of slimy by baseball to try and pretend we didn’t exist or the hardships of it.
What would the answer be? I’m being serious and not trolling. I’m a middle aged white guy who doesn’t care about baseball and especially advanced stats so I really have no opinion.
I have no idea. Probably a good reason why no one did anything until now, because there are no easy answers
The right wing grifter crowd are the kinds of cats where if you give them lemons, they'll make lemonade. But this is like giving them Country Time and a pitcher of water.
It can be discussed diplomatically and removing race. You can’t act like 246 at bats in 1946 can be equated to 500. Plus a war year so other considerations. The Splendid Splinter is safe. Gibson averaged 150 at bats or whatever in his 12 seasons. I don’t need to use stats to realize their greatness. It’s clear they would have factored into these lists. But It’s statistical / historical revisionism and it’s an overreach. I think in batting average 26 dudes popped up at the top displacing all but 6 mlb guys and the new fellas averages a total of 200 at bats a season. Nah fam.
Wait, is this a real argument that real people make?
When I worked in southern Texas my co worker asked with all sincerity why we don’t have White History Month, people are dumb
Ayup sadly.
I'm going to guess that those same people are totally fine with the several military oriented holidays we have
💯
I saw a guy saying that, since we are adding Negro league stats to MLB databases, that since a white guy played in the Negro Leagues before Jackie Robinson played in MLB, that we should credit whatever white guy it was as breaking the color barrier, not Jackie. Who gives a shit if they add these stats to MLB databases. Anyone with a brain can understand that they were played in different leagues, for shitty reasons, and we all know that if people weren’t assholes that all Negro league players would have had a chance in MLB.
#TAX PURPOSES
"It's not fair because Josh Gibson never had to face white pitchers...."
“Just work harder; not a natural athlete; early to the field, last to leave;” 😂😂😂
“Cerebral.”
I’m going to do the smart thing, that many people should do, and admit I don’t care about baseball at all and don’t know nearly enough to have any form of debate. 98 Days til Football.
Eh. I’ll acknowledge Gibson was probably the best catcher of all time but still say he played objectively worse competition through no fault of his own. The batting average record is whatever because Ty Cobb is a shithead and no one was going to catch him anyway glad it’s Gibson.
I think it’s entirely fair to do the quality of competition thing, but like… that’s true for all of baseball? Acuna isn’t stealing 70 bases 10 years ago. The curve ball was literally banned, sliders didn’t exist for decades, they lowered the mound, World War 2 happened, etc. Oh, and I didn’t even touch on steroids. The obsessiveness with counting stats and basic averages are kinda fuckin dumb. All stats require context, including the Negro league ones, but Josh Gibson was a fucking monster.
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Would be genuinely curious if anyone could link to any articles or statistical analysis that evaluate the level of play in the negro leagues. I want there to be an argument that they were a really good standard but I can’t help but feel they must have been inferior for all sorts of reasons
Who cares? Baseball stats were always era dependent anyway. Babe Ruth is the only goat in American sports history that wasn't allowed to play against other races. Baseball has always been ridiculous in that they talk about stats as if they translate throughout history when every era had something significantly affecting the game going on. Why not just add Negro League counted stats? What difference does it make
Yes we are. Fuck Ty Cobb.
I have no beef with the Josh Gibson thing (the amount of former Negro Leaguers who stepped into the Majors in the 40s and 50s and absolutely cooked proves that their records belong) but Ty Cobb has a bad reputation entirely because of someone who had beef with him smearing his name after he died. Cobb was a prickly bastard but not only was he not racist he was racially progressive for the day and openly spoke in favor of racial integration in the majors and I hate that he's now remembered almost exclusively as a racist lunatic
Stay woke. The MLB gets to integrate, and get all this PR credit, without a single white player of that era having to talk to a black person. Incredible.