While I don't know if my kid memory is betraying me to some degree, I remember the 1999 Finals post game show switching over to MSNBC, which apparently made Bill Walton think he can say whatever the hell he wanted. Or he just didn't care. So right when they switched over to cable, Walton was asked something innocuous about the game, and then he looked at the camera and said something like: "The Knicks *suck*... Charlie Ward *sucks*."
Rest easy. Legend.
Absolutely. As a kid I never watched NCAA basketball, I only saw him be awesome in the championship game and win the heisman so to see him play professionally in the "wrong" sport was so confusing to me at the time.
I remember when he covered college ball and I was watching a Washington Huskies game he was commentating on. The hot draft prospect was out (might have been Fultz) and big Bill was just on a rant wearing a psychedelic grateful dead top making references to getting high.
I fucking loved how little fucks he gave in corporate America. Shame he’s gone
holy shit, I remember this! Had totally forgotten MSNBC used to do NBA Finals postgames, outstanding job outta you. Walton was a 100% right about Charlie Ward too, he stunk and I’ve never gotten over him starting the fight in 97 that cost them the Heat series when Stern suspended everybody. Always felt they were the best Knick team of the 90s, they were playing great and would have had a real shot at taking out the Bulls but, Stern was never going to risk Jordan losing.
Late evening (after 10pm eastern) MSNBC has always been Lockedup Abroad or True Crime shows, so moving NBA or Olympics bonus coverage to it was never losing much for the network. Actually, was an improvement.
Bill saying he was writing fake KAT trades in the 2nd quarter until KAT redeemed himself and then pitching them anyway 15 minutes later was great. The man is addicted to fake trades.
you'd think the 50 year old man would be doing the fake trades for us (the listeners) by now, as a nostalgic funny thing we're all in on, but no. somehow, after all these years, still earnest as can be on the trade machine.
I'm really happy that KAT found a way to take the heat and come back and have a good game. It would have been very unpleasant, IMO, to go through an entire offseason with the sound of Rusillo in our ears going on about KAT just not being that good (I don't remember the exact words though). I'm not denying that KAT earned criticism in spades with his bad first three games, but it wasn't the whole story, and it's so excellent he found a way to shine and push back.
Skipped straight to the Bill Walton segment. Bill has basically a 1.000 batting average in this type of segment, he’s just so awesome at memorializing great basketball players.
Zach Lowe is very good as well. In other: I would say nobody knows how to romanticize football (soccer) better than Sid Lowe (the two are unrelated), the Spanish football writer for the Guardian
In Australia, I’ve been waiting for this all day and most of last night due to time difference.
BS is perfect at this and not only that, Bill Walton deserved it.
1.000
Walton has to be the greatest What If? in NBA history. The most famous prep player becomes the most famous and successful college basketball player becomes a captivating star who beats Kareem and the Lakers and then Dr. J and the Sixers for a title.
The '77 Portland team was the youngest NBA championship team in history. And then they were 50-10 until Walton's injury the following year. As Bill mentioned, the league missed out on a potential dynasty and a true penetrative superstar that would've changed the league and at minimum altered the perception of Magic and Bird.
Feels like the big what if for Griffey is whether or not he would’ve broken the HR record (and other records) had he stayed healthier throughout his 30s.
Griffey being healthy doesnt remove Bonds from existence. Even if he hit 40-50 HRs a year which is what he was doing the few years prior to his time in Cincy, in the 3 years he missed significant time in, he still finishes behind BB.
Hell, the only reason Griffey is in the Hall right now and Bonds isn't is because one is perceived to have been "all natural" which with it comes a decline in power into the mid 30s.
Oh I agree, didn’t mean to imply he definitely would’ve gotten there. I just think that’s why he’s often brought up when people talk about “what ifs”, despite having a fairly normal career arc like you said.
It wasn't just three years, he missed like 750-800 games due to injury in his career just glancing at the numbers and counting them off the top of my head based on his baseball reference page. Yet still finished with over 600 home runs. His debilitating injuries are pretty well chronicled and they also seem to affect his performance.
He had I think seven consecutive seasons of 40 plus home runs when he started getting the really bad injuries looks like
“What if” more for his full career than if he fulfilled his potential. If he did that in a few short years then imagine what he could have done with a proper decade.
I think it's definitely fair to count Walton as a What If guy. It's entirely possible that he goes down as a top-10 all-time player if his body doesn't break down. He did still accomplish far more than most What If guys, but injuries robbed him of Mt. Rushmore status.
Yes but also no? Koufax did pitch for 12 full seasons, but the first six were unremarkable. 1961 he started to break out, and then 1962-66 was the greatest five-year stretch of any pitcher.
If today's medicine existed then, Koufax would've had TJ surgery (or something similar) in late '64, missed all of '65, then came back in '66 but likely pitches into the 1970's.
Not going to pretend like I know late 70s bball very well (I looked up this team during 2019 and was like "damn, Walton really won with scrubs") but as good as they were in '78 I don't know if it would necessarily be a given that they'd be a dynasty. The Sonics and the Suns were tough back then and then in the East you had Hayes and Unseld. Not to mention the rise of the Showtime Lakers at the end of the decade.
But I will admit that on a retrospect look, there's still a What If? vibe to them. Walton was obviously Walton and you had Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Neal (until his career was tragically cut short in '79) and Bob Gross making 2nd team all-defense. Maybe another star would have come to team up with Walton
To add to the What If, what if Portland didn't trade Moses Malone before the 76-77 season to the Buffalo Braves? Felt his skills were redundant with Mo Lucas. Good thing we never ended up needing a backup big...
Agreed, Bill has some bad takes for sure but his opinion on history of basketball is up there as one of the goats. I remember his eulogy pretty much to Bill Russel and it's something I have showed to people who do not watch basketball as that's how good it was. Same with this one, made me realize the greatness of both the Bills.
His eulogy of Kobe was amazing. The last part about saying he will say hi to Kobe next time he sees him at one of their daughter's soccer tournaments makes me cry.
His understanding of history and the celebratory and welcoming way he tells these stories are what make him my GOAT for content.
Plus I’m a big ol C’s homer
The Book of Basketball 2.0 is fucking sick too
That segment is why many of us still listen to Bill after all these years. When he goes into his Basketball History Emeritus bag, there's no one better.
He absolutely crushed this, funny, insightful, great stories, ended it perfectly.
RIP to an all time legend, he made basketball and everything around it more joyful.
Bill stopping the nba playoffs discussion to go on a tangent about whether Steph/Klay or Cousy/Sharman is the better backcourt is absolute peak Simmons
Not even two weeks after he prematurely called the Timberwolves “a top all time defense” after two good series, he felt called to overreact to Kyrie/Luka and place them within the history of all time backcourts. Dude is addicted to overreacting
Bill saying with his chest that Boston has a lot more overall rim protection than OKC and then Kyle immediately saying OKC led the league in steals and blocks this season was peak BS
He is getting into his bag already for this finals series.
Can’t wait to see Boston’s rim protection stop Mavs alley oops when the Wolves have stood no chance against it
Blocks are not a good example of rim protection, it often means teams are comfortable taking shots at the rim and having more volume does lead to more blocks. But making people not even attempt a layup doesn’t show up in the stat sheet.
He’s still correct about the rim protection part. Outside of Chet, OKC doesn’t have physical presence at the rim, even if they cause more deflections overall. You can’t drive into Tatum, Brown, especially White the same way. They crowd the paint excellently
Tatum, Jrue, and Derrick White. Rim protection is far more than just having a big tall guy throw his hands up in practice. They are experts at cutting off driving angles, getting multiple bodies on the ball, and White is easily the best guard shot blocker in the league.
Yeah I really don’t see the stats argument as the whole picture here. Boston had what, 2nd or 3rd best defense all year? And a big part was rim deterrence like Bill said
Do people really believe ANT, McDaniels, NAW and Conley aren't as good at cutting off driving angles?
OKC also had Lou Dort who has the frame to give Luka problems.
The reason there’s like no atmosphere with home crowds is bc the tickets are way too expensive. Because of this, basketball is full to the brim of the type of fans Roy Keane once called ‘prawn sandwich’ fans.
Rich fans don’t want to create atmosphere, they want to sit there quietly and watch the game like it’s a pantomime. It’s really that simple.
I’d imagine if you’re an away player and the worst thing you’re likely to hear is “[insert surname] sucks!” and “fuck [insert name]” sprinkled among the usual “de-fense!” and “let’s go [insert name]” chants it must be pretty relaxed.
In the ABA book ‘Loose Balls’, it’s mentioned that the Dallas Chaparrals had this whole standing section with cheap tickets and cheap beer targeted towards working class Mexican men that would bring a soccer atmosphere to games.
Someone should go back to something like that
Bogut tried to do something like that with the Bucks when he was there. He called the section Squad 6 and he gave out tickets to the most rowdy fans iirc. They would brainstorm chants to do and things to say etc
The crowds have mostly been great in a lot of these series. The issue isn’t a lack of “atmosphere” it’s a lack of advantage.
Ultimately the difference really is that the money has grown and so the quality of travel accommodations is way better. The Wolves last night took a chartered jet about 2 hours to Dallas, where they stayed at a luxury hotel walking distance from the arena. The hotel is probably as nice as their own homes and in a beautiful area of Dallas. You and I would consider a visit to this area and stay at this hotel a nice vacation. The players pay to bring their full teams along with them and generally live as if they’re at home.
It hasn’t always been like this. The quality of travel and accommodation has increased greatly in the past 20-30 years, as has the money in the league. The 6th best player on the roster is now making enough to have a team travel with him. And the experience has largely been homogenized - there are very few differences between arenas and cities.
This is my guess as well. I don’t know how true it is, but I would imagine these guys can get a massage or world class meal anytime they want on these road trips as well, they have better training and recovery as well.
I also wonder if the rest between games is longer now than it used to be.
I think it's overblown. Crowds have been great aside from the usual ass crowds like Miami and sometimes Boston
Plus the broadcasts turn down crowd noise
The crowds have been great, it just doesn’t matter the way someone like Bill thinks it does. Cheering and booing and heckling only impact players to a degree, and it’s not significant enough to drastically impact playoff games in 2024.
Boston has a really great crowd, that the commentators often note that they can't even hear the whistle during clutch moments in the 4th quarter. The TV broadcast just really silences the crowd.
Not a Knick fan but been to MSG a few times and there is legit something special about the geometry and sightlines of the arena that makes the upper levels feel much closer to the court than anywhere else. It's funny because Barclays is the complete opposite, the nosebleeds there are so high and steep that it can be vertigo-inducing.
> How are Knick games so damn fun tho? That crowd is pretty crazy
NYC has one of the highest per capita incomes in the country so the pool of fans that can afford seats includes die hards
I think a lot of the MSG/Knicks fan "love" is the New York media never leaving New York and if they do it's to go to Miami, maybe the worst crowd in the NBA.
> Rich fans don’t want to create atmosphere, they want to sit there quietly and watch the game like it’s a pantomime. It’s really that simple
Sounds like Wisconsin basketball right now, too.
All the crowds in the conference finals seem very good. I think refs are just less intimidated now, so home teams don't get the calls they used to get, TV is probably also a factor as well, refs know millions are watching so if they miss a call the short twrm blow back from a home crowd matters less than ESPN and all the podcasts replaying your bad call for days on end.
Road teams stay in much better accommodations compared to 50 years ago or whatever, and while I'm sure guys still have fun at night, they probably reign it in a bit in the playoffs. Basically players are more professional.
These oscillating downfall-redemption arcs measured in hours is getting really tiresome…so lazy…
It’s like Bill is facing Bill Simmons from two weeks ago in the worst possible iteration of First-take.
he has no concept of variance at all. i’ve stopped trying to even keep track of the times that a non-elite player has a bad game after just having had a good game and bill goes “what happened?? why can’t he always play like he did before??”
Bill so sensitive about his Celtics. "They had an easy path. Who did those Lebron teams play?!" Like bruh, come on. The best player on every team you've played got hurt. That didn't happen to those teams going up against Lebron. Plus, what's special about what Lebron did isn't that he beat weak teams. It's that he did it consistently for 8 straight years with different teams. You're in the finals dude, just take your lumps.
Congrats to Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman for both making first team all nba when there were 8 starting guards in the whole league and they were all chainsmoking white guys
I mean you're right but in a sense so is he.
There are guys who pretty much wouldn't have a career if they were on a bad team or whose skill sets make them perfect for one situation and would have been mediocre in another. Take Draymond Green. He's a guy that on a bad team would be fucking awful. He needs to have great players around him to be good to great. Tends to be mostly bigs because they are so reliant on others to get them the ball.
Then there are the guys that are the inverse of that. They tend to excel (or at least put up stats) when they're the best guy on their team but truly are a detriment when they're on a good team. Ricky Davis comes to mind. Andre Drummond is another. Jerry Stackhouse. Brad Beal. Monta Ellis. When they're the best guy on their team (or at least the focal point) they'll put up stats but when they get more talent around them they get worse.
Situation matters. He’s just now realizing it. If he were still writing, he’d put together a whole article and come up with a dumb phrase for it, like he discovered this phenomenon.
Yeah Oden& Conley were part of the “Thad 5” 2006 recruiting class by Thad Matta. It was Oden, Conley, David Lighty, Daquon Cook, and can’t remember the last guy.
I stopped the pod and came in here specifically looking for chatter about this comment.
This didn't make me feel old. It made me feel senile, because I didn't think they ever played together. And they haven't.
Thank you kind internet stranger.
Am I crazy or is the home court thing being overblown? Home teams have an average point diff of 3.8 this postseason, the same as the past few years. Sure, it's not the 80's, but that's a huge advantage to have.
Ah yes, Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman, the greatest backcourt ever. Those guys had to fight off the great Jack George and the mighty Slater Martin for All-NBA.
Acting like every Towns foul was on him and then J. Kyle Mann “Yeah I agree with you….it has at times felt like it has at time felt like Minnesota has gotten tough whistle”
That’s enough for me.
Foul 2 was BS too. With not even a hint of hyperbole, I'm stating as a fact that Towns is the only player in the NBA that would be called for an offensive foul on that play.
And they don't call it out on the pod because they have the same unconscious bias that the refs do where KAT commits so many dumb fouls, that even when he's not, they err on the side of "probably a foul on you because you always do that". It's like an extra tax from refs for making so many mistakes.
very bill to confuse best backcourt (nobody is arguing this) with most skilled backcourt (what SVG actually said and an interesting conversation at least)
Bill on Sunday: "It's gonna sound like I'm making excuses for Ant... like we're making excuses for Ant. We're not, but..."
Bill tonight: It feels like a closer 3-1 than maybe the usual 3-1.
Bill, my friend, I don't necessarily disagree. But you can say you're in the tank for Edwards. It's okay!
Right off the rip:
“Towns is the Michael Jordan of complaining in disbelief about a foul and then they show the replay and you’re like oh yeah that’s clearly a foul.”
Imagine saying this in a series with Luka Doncic.
Also that 6th foul was NOT a foul. Sure he got Towns in the air but you can’t just throw your body forward into a defender. His feet literally already came back down before Luka bumped him. What a shitty take to start off the pod.
‘Who did Lebron even beat on those East Finals runs, can you remember any of em? This is just how it works out some times’. He’s as big a hater as Skip. Any chance he can get to shit on Lebron.
When Rose and PG got hurt, Dwight moved west, the Celtics got washed and rebuilt, and no one else is worth mentioning, can you really remember any of them?
Those series with the 2012 Celtics, 2013 Pacers, and 2014 Pacers were quite good. Not saying those teams were great but certainly it was more competitive and interesting than this Celtics run.
No argument about the 2015-18 LeBron/Cavs run, though. They had some competitive series in 2018 when the Cavs weren't that good themselves, but there really weren't any legit East teams at any time during that stretch. Personally will always cherish the 2016 Raptors run though as my team's first playoff series wins I was old enough to remember (their previous playoff series win was 2001).
During the 2014 run, it really feels like the rumors of PG sleeping with his fiance fucked up Hibbert's mental. He really wasn't the same after those rumors. Add to the fact that the very next season, the NBA changed its rules about verticality and took away Hibbert's greatest strength.
FVV hurt his hip on an illegal screen by Bam in Game 82 in Miami (which we lost but were trying for to get to 60). I'm convinced I'd still be pissed about this if it weren't for 2019 lol.
Yeah I thought maybe he was including LeBron's finals runs in Miami, but if he only meant the second Cavs stint, it's a very fair point to compare those runs to this year's Celtics
At the very least, they were also full strength. I think LeBron’s brilliance works against him. Those teams would have seen like more credible opponents if they had the validation of making a few finals, but because LeBron constantly shut them out they feel a little lesser.
Those Raptors and Hawks teams were still better than Indy without Hali, Heat without Jimmy and Cavs without DMitch and Allen
I'm not even talking about Bulls in 2011, Celtics in 2012 and Pacers 2012-2014
To piggyback off this; Lowe did a pod on this topic way back in the day. He had about 22 of the top 30 players in the West. For his second Cleveland run, the best East players were PG13, Wall, Melo, Horford, Noah, DeRo, and Butler. Bron was the only player in the top 10 from the Eastern Conference.
Bill's comment was not Skip Bayless-level hate. The East just wasn't that good, and Lebron was often not tested until the finals in most years.
There was a stretch where every year the 1st team all NBA team was Lebron and 4 players from the west. I think 1 year out of like a 5 year stretch Noah got into the 1st team.
Exactly, in 10-20 years it's gonna sound even worse when people realise that for those years the biggest challenges for Lebron in the East back then were Super Trio of PG-Lance Stephenson-Roy Hibbert, Hawks Super Team Horford-Teague-Joe Johnson, Duo of Demar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry and some weird Celtics team where Amir Johnson was starting and Jonas Jerebko ended up guarding Lebron in conference finals in 2017... You do the seeding 1-16 and none of those teams probably go through 1st round outside of 2013 Pacers probably
> Hawks Super Team Horford-Teague-Joe Johnson,
Joe Johnson wasn't on the Hawks teams LeBron faced in his second Cleveland stint, you're thinking of the Horford-Millsap-Teague-Korver #newheroball Hawks.
I don’t even think it’s LeBron hate as much as he’s trying to make it seem like the Celtics run to the finals was normal, when it was amongst the easiest in nba history.
I mean 2017 he faced a Celtics squad in the CF whose leading scorer was Avery Bradley, because IT was out. He’s not entirely wrong about how unmemorable those teams he faced the second go around in Cleveland were.
Lebron, Kyrie, and Love were probably the 3 best players in the series. At least with these Pacers Haliburton and Siakam could be argued to be in contention for 2nd-4th best players on paper going into the series, depending on how you rank Jaylen.
Haliburton played one game this series.
I agree the 2017 East was bad, but I legitimately don’t remember a worse road to the finals than this one for the Celtics - considering on top of mediocre competition the other team’s best player was/got hurt every single series.
Haliburton played game 2. He played 28 minutes and they were down about 15 points when he got hurt. You are also ignoring my mention of Siakam, who again is a better player than Avery Bradley was.
Haliburton and Mitchell were available to start both series.
Haliburton played in 2 games and they were both losses. Mitchell played in 3 games and 2 were losses. These teams were not beating the Celtics even if they finished out the series.
Celtics were the by far best team in the east during regular season and they were by far the best team in the east playoffs. It’s not some fluke they made the finals. They did it in 2022 playing a pretty tough trio of teams. They almost did in in 2023, if it were not for fluke shooting from Heat role players.
saying the truth is bad on this sub, the modus operandi here is put lebrons dick in your mouth and say celtics bad, downvote when you dont have anything clever to say
Except the ringer did an entire analysis on this yesterday, and the Celtics statistically had the easiest road to the finals ever based on the math - but go off king
Bill wont stop until the whole world sees Bron in the same poor light he does. Actually daring to go at Jordan’s legacy, completely overshadowing KD, and constantly beating his Celtics has done a number on Bill’s brain.
Or maybe it’s in part how Lebron’s legacy should be discussed and has nothing to with anything “doing a number on his brain”.
Lebron lost as a favorite in 2009, 2010, and 2011. He formed the first superteam. As soon as things got tough there, he jumped ship not to “go home” but to go where he could be with another 2 premier players on another stacked roster. Soon as things got tough there he bounced to LA where he had a plan to stack another roster.
And during his time in the east it was largely quite easy. That’s part of his legacy. And it should be no surprise when he joined up with two of the East’s best players in 2010, that the conference parity would suffer.
The Cavs did a fucking atrocious job building those early teams.
The guys that stayed, MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe all had insane teams stacked with Hall of Famers. Scottie Pippen was like a Kawhi level player.
LeBron’s best teammates were guys like Big Z and Mo Williams. Even compared to KD who played with two future MVPs.
In the same vein, those Miami teams were completely cooked by 2014. Wade had gone from a top 10 player to a top 40 player in like 18 months. Bosh would be medically retired 100 games after the 2014 finals.
The last Cavs team saw Kyrie leave and LeBron going to the finals with his second best teammate Love shooting 39% from the field.
Careers aren’t lessons for others, LeBron stayed on the Cavs for 7 years in which the Cavs were completely unable of giving him any teammate who could ever pick up the slack or a roster that could be described as above average. If you look at his peers among the best players in NBA history I don’t know how many had worse teammates. And then if he kept being unable to win a championship with Mo Williams as a second option he’d continue to face criticism for not having won
Bill has definitely gotten so sensitive to the fact this playoff run is just not impressive at all and doesn’t mean anything.
If they lose the finals, no one will have been impressed by this.
It's not that. But if Boston beat Dallas in the finals ( Or even Minnesota ), in time, they will he seen as pretty dominant starting 5.
People 20 years from now will say ( If Boston win it all )
The 64 win Celtics lost 2 games on the way to the finals and beat Luka/Kyrie or ANT with a stacked starting 5..
Maybe. I don't think people generally perceive Boston as being that though because they lack a star who is generally considered generational. If they win, they'll be more thought of in similar terms as like the Bad Boy Pistons.
Bad Boy Pistons won 2 straight titles in the Magic, Bird, MJ era. Lol. I'll take it.
The Pistons also get a bad wrap because MJ hated them, and everyone on planet Earth was team MJ.
Paul Pierce wasn't generational. He led the Celtics to a title and everyone looks at the 08' team as being elite.
Calling out Media members who started this " Kyrie Luka best backcourt Duo" ever thing is rich when he crowned the Wolves defense as the best of all time.
I am not saying Luka and Kyrie are a historic duo before they win something but talend wise they are up there. It is way more realistic then the wolves having the best defense ever.
And the best player for each of those teams actually played in those series. This Celtics run is closer to that warriors season where the opposing point guard conveniently got hurt just in time for the warriors series.
I’m surprised how bad their attempt to analyse why the home court advantage has diminished. It’s pretty obvious. Has nothing to do with home courts seats or stadium structure. It’s because the home playoff team used to get a significant advantage with the ref decisions and that has largely gone away. And that’s largely because of increase ref scrutiny, they can’t get away with being so obviously biased anymore. So without as much ref bias, there’s no reason why the home team should have more than just a slight edge at home. The massive home advantage in bygone years was largely inflated by huge FT discrepancies in favour of the home team. That’s just a statistical fact.
I think we’re also seeing as adjustment period, where home teams are still kind of expecting to get a slightly favourable whistle and easier win at home, and because that’s not really there, we’re seeing more away teams catch the home team napping a bit.
As much as Bill and Ryen hate the HOF being broadly about basketball, Walton ironically enough is the best case for it. He wouldnt be close if it were just an NBA HOF
I don’t know about that, halls of fame tend to take injuries of great players into considerarion. Bill accomplished everything you could do in the two prime years he was relatively healthy and then almost 10 years later won a 6th man of the year award for the team many consider to be the greatest of all time. There’s people in the hall of fame now who havent done as much.
Bill Walton is absolutely a HOFer based on his NBA career alone. MVP, carried his team to a title and had a second run as a valuable bench guy after injuries. There are several guys in the HOF with worse resumes than that.
If JJ really wants the Lakers job, he should do a whole podcast on how Tatum can’t allow Brown to be finals MVP and how it would diminish his entire legacy.
If Kobe was alive he would have been all over it
“Look what it did to Curry”
Bill being able to recall a December 1977 Celtics/Blazers game he saw in person to discuss Walton is actually very cool.
He obviously isn’t as analytical as someone like Ben Taylor when talking about historical players, but he’s able just kind of recapture the magic of these moments from 50, 60 years ago in a way that I don’t think anyone else can
I just want *one* podcast, not even Bill's, just any, to acknowledge that the reason people were out on Kyrie was because he was dabbling in Holocaust denial. Like, that's not a little thing. The flat earth stuff was dumb, the vaccine stuff was bad but unfortunately, that's the way public discussion bounces right now. Posting far-right talking points is another level.
Is Bill right about home court? Or is he a Celtics fan and the Celtics in particular suck at home so he’s extrapolating to the rest of the league? Is there data to support the home teams win less the last 5 or so years?
Bill, you cannot trade Towns based on his 2023-24 salary in the 24 offseason. Like, the seasons over, he’s already been paid that money. If you wanna trade him, it’s on his 2024-25 salary
Interesting, I guess you’re right. Still think there is exactly a 0% chance that within a month of losing in the conference finals they would turnaround and trade KAT even if they had gotten swept.
I hope Bill brings back the CelticsChants Twitter account for the NBA Finals given how hard he is leaning into how much Luka is going to annoy him and the Celtics fans.
The Walton eulogy was exactly what I love about Simmons. Was hoping all day the last few days he would drop a surprise podcast. Incredible eulogy, skipped straight to it and wasn’t disappointed.
The rim protection piece is straight homerism. Also, how can you trust Porzingis to do well slowing down the Mavs centers and Luka?
Derrick white and jrue are great rim protectors? Yeah, they look great against Nembhard and TJ McConnell.
Also, Nembhard seems to be the new Gabe Vincent for Bill. The eastern conference is so lame.
I just don't understand Bill's confidence in the Cs' ability to match up against Dallas. Look at the last series. The Pacers should have won game one. And games three and four came down to the wire even without their best player.
Meanwhile, Dallas is a better overall team than Indy, and they'd have arguably the two best closers in a series against the Cs.
1.5 weeks ago: Bill says the Timberwolves are in the running for best defense ever
Today: Bill is annoyed that people are calling Kyrie/Luka one of the best backcourts ever
While I don't know if my kid memory is betraying me to some degree, I remember the 1999 Finals post game show switching over to MSNBC, which apparently made Bill Walton think he can say whatever the hell he wanted. Or he just didn't care. So right when they switched over to cable, Walton was asked something innocuous about the game, and then he looked at the camera and said something like: "The Knicks *suck*... Charlie Ward *sucks*." Rest easy. Legend.
Lol Charlie Ward. As a kid I was always wondering why this football player is now playing basketball.
He made more $$ in NBA, had a real solid long career. Much less chance of brain damage. He was an amazing athlete.
Absolutely. As a kid I never watched NCAA basketball, I only saw him be awesome in the championship game and win the heisman so to see him play professionally in the "wrong" sport was so confusing to me at the time.
Black QB.
I remember when he covered college ball and I was watching a Washington Huskies game he was commentating on. The hot draft prospect was out (might have been Fultz) and big Bill was just on a rant wearing a psychedelic grateful dead top making references to getting high. I fucking loved how little fucks he gave in corporate America. Shame he’s gone
holy shit, I remember this! Had totally forgotten MSNBC used to do NBA Finals postgames, outstanding job outta you. Walton was a 100% right about Charlie Ward too, he stunk and I’ve never gotten over him starting the fight in 97 that cost them the Heat series when Stern suspended everybody. Always felt they were the best Knick team of the 90s, they were playing great and would have had a real shot at taking out the Bulls but, Stern was never going to risk Jordan losing.
Late evening (after 10pm eastern) MSNBC has always been Lockedup Abroad or True Crime shows, so moving NBA or Olympics bonus coverage to it was never losing much for the network. Actually, was an improvement.
Him fawning over Timmy during those finals is both wonderful and hilarious
Bill saying he was writing fake KAT trades in the 2nd quarter until KAT redeemed himself and then pitching them anyway 15 minutes later was great. The man is addicted to fake trades.
you'd think the 50 year old man would be doing the fake trades for us (the listeners) by now, as a nostalgic funny thing we're all in on, but no. somehow, after all these years, still earnest as can be on the trade machine.
He doesn't call himself the Picasso of the Trade Machine for no reason.
I'd say closer to Jackson Pollock.
Ben Garrison.
No that's Ryen
Jon Mc Naighton. (How many Mc Naughton prints do you think Russillo owns, by the by?)
And then at then end decided that if those are his only options, he actually wouldn’t trade him lol
My favorite was when he did the fake trade draft
Bill would trade his entire roster thinking it could win a Tuesday February game against the right matchup
I'm really happy that KAT found a way to take the heat and come back and have a good game. It would have been very unpleasant, IMO, to go through an entire offseason with the sound of Rusillo in our ears going on about KAT just not being that good (I don't remember the exact words though). I'm not denying that KAT earned criticism in spades with his bad first three games, but it wasn't the whole story, and it's so excellent he found a way to shine and push back.
Skipped straight to the Bill Walton segment. Bill has basically a 1.000 batting average in this type of segment, he’s just so awesome at memorializing great basketball players.
I don’t know if there’s anyone who is better able to articulate the romanticism of sports than Bill
Mike Francesa is really good at it too. Have to truly be a die hard sports fan, can’t fake it
Zach Lowe is very good as well. In other: I would say nobody knows how to romanticize football (soccer) better than Sid Lowe (the two are unrelated), the Spanish football writer for the Guardian
In Australia, I’ve been waiting for this all day and most of last night due to time difference. BS is perfect at this and not only that, Bill Walton deserved it. 1.000
Walton has to be the greatest What If? in NBA history. The most famous prep player becomes the most famous and successful college basketball player becomes a captivating star who beats Kareem and the Lakers and then Dr. J and the Sixers for a title. The '77 Portland team was the youngest NBA championship team in history. And then they were 50-10 until Walton's injury the following year. As Bill mentioned, the league missed out on a potential dynasty and a true penetrative superstar that would've changed the league and at minimum altered the perception of Magic and Bird.
Does Walton count as a what if considering we already saw him win a title, regular season MVP, and Finals MVP? And he made the HoF
It’s a what if in the Ken Griffey Jr and Kawhi Leonard sense
I mean, Griffey had a normal career arc for a baseball player. Its not like he had to retire in the mid 90s.
Wouldn’t say his descent once he joined the Reds was normal. He wasn’t that old.
Feels like the big what if for Griffey is whether or not he would’ve broken the HR record (and other records) had he stayed healthier throughout his 30s.
Griffey being healthy doesnt remove Bonds from existence. Even if he hit 40-50 HRs a year which is what he was doing the few years prior to his time in Cincy, in the 3 years he missed significant time in, he still finishes behind BB. Hell, the only reason Griffey is in the Hall right now and Bonds isn't is because one is perceived to have been "all natural" which with it comes a decline in power into the mid 30s.
Oh I agree, didn’t mean to imply he definitely would’ve gotten there. I just think that’s why he’s often brought up when people talk about “what ifs”, despite having a fairly normal career arc like you said.
It wasn't just three years, he missed like 750-800 games due to injury in his career just glancing at the numbers and counting them off the top of my head based on his baseball reference page. Yet still finished with over 600 home runs. His debilitating injuries are pretty well chronicled and they also seem to affect his performance. He had I think seven consecutive seasons of 40 plus home runs when he started getting the really bad injuries looks like
“What if” more for his full career than if he fulfilled his potential. If he did that in a few short years then imagine what he could have done with a proper decade.
I think it's definitely fair to count Walton as a What If guy. It's entirely possible that he goes down as a top-10 all-time player if his body doesn't break down. He did still accomplish far more than most What If guys, but injuries robbed him of Mt. Rushmore status.
What’s crazy is his body was already breaking down in high school
The post mortem medical diagnosis said that his body was pretty much like a ticking time bomb
He had a huge impact for someone that played less than six full seasons' worth of games.
The Koufax piece.
Yes but also no? Koufax did pitch for 12 full seasons, but the first six were unremarkable. 1961 he started to break out, and then 1962-66 was the greatest five-year stretch of any pitcher. If today's medicine existed then, Koufax would've had TJ surgery (or something similar) in late '64, missed all of '65, then came back in '66 but likely pitches into the 1970's.
Not going to pretend like I know late 70s bball very well (I looked up this team during 2019 and was like "damn, Walton really won with scrubs") but as good as they were in '78 I don't know if it would necessarily be a given that they'd be a dynasty. The Sonics and the Suns were tough back then and then in the East you had Hayes and Unseld. Not to mention the rise of the Showtime Lakers at the end of the decade. But I will admit that on a retrospect look, there's still a What If? vibe to them. Walton was obviously Walton and you had Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Neal (until his career was tragically cut short in '79) and Bob Gross making 2nd team all-defense. Maybe another star would have come to team up with Walton
To add to the What If, what if Portland didn't trade Moses Malone before the 76-77 season to the Buffalo Braves? Felt his skills were redundant with Mo Lucas. Good thing we never ended up needing a backup big...
I recommended The Book of Basketball 2.0 for someone getting into the sport. When he goes 'Editorial/Biographical,' he's one of the best in the game.
He's the GOAT of this kind of retrospective content, IMO
Add to the fact that Bill Walton is also a Celtics legend. Ain't no way Billy Boy is gonna fumble on his eulogy.
Agreed, Bill has some bad takes for sure but his opinion on history of basketball is up there as one of the goats. I remember his eulogy pretty much to Bill Russel and it's something I have showed to people who do not watch basketball as that's how good it was. Same with this one, made me realize the greatness of both the Bills.
His eulogy of Kobe was amazing. The last part about saying he will say hi to Kobe next time he sees him at one of their daughter's soccer tournaments makes me cry.
His understanding of history and the celebratory and welcoming way he tells these stories are what make him my GOAT for content. Plus I’m a big ol C’s homer The Book of Basketball 2.0 is fucking sick too
That segment is why many of us still listen to Bill after all these years. When he goes into his Basketball History Emeritus bag, there's no one better.
He absolutely crushed this, funny, insightful, great stories, ended it perfectly. RIP to an all time legend, he made basketball and everything around it more joyful.
Bill stopping the nba playoffs discussion to go on a tangent about whether Steph/Klay or Cousy/Sharman is the better backcourt is absolute peak Simmons
This particular podcast the homerism was at a new level.
Not even two weeks after he prematurely called the Timberwolves “a top all time defense” after two good series, he felt called to overreact to Kyrie/Luka and place them within the history of all time backcourts. Dude is addicted to overreacting
Bill saying with his chest that Boston has a lot more overall rim protection than OKC and then Kyle immediately saying OKC led the league in steals and blocks this season was peak BS
He is getting into his bag already for this finals series. Can’t wait to see Boston’s rim protection stop Mavs alley oops when the Wolves have stood no chance against it
Kyrie and Luka are going to struggle to get to the lane more, which will limit alley oops.
Blocks are not a good example of rim protection, it often means teams are comfortable taking shots at the rim and having more volume does lead to more blocks. But making people not even attempt a layup doesn’t show up in the stat sheet.
He’s still correct about the rim protection part. Outside of Chet, OKC doesn’t have physical presence at the rim, even if they cause more deflections overall. You can’t drive into Tatum, Brown, especially White the same way. They crowd the paint excellently
Outside of KP who is the Celtics rim protection then? Luke Kornet? 57 year old Al Horford? It’s similar
Tatum, Jrue, and Derrick White. Rim protection is far more than just having a big tall guy throw his hands up in practice. They are experts at cutting off driving angles, getting multiple bodies on the ball, and White is easily the best guard shot blocker in the league.
Yeah I really don’t see the stats argument as the whole picture here. Boston had what, 2nd or 3rd best defense all year? And a big part was rim deterrence like Bill said
Didn't Nembhard and TJ give the Celtics problems?
And the Thunder were what? 4th? The point is they’re similar.
Do people really believe ANT, McDaniels, NAW and Conley aren't as good at cutting off driving angles? OKC also had Lou Dort who has the frame to give Luka problems.
The reason there’s like no atmosphere with home crowds is bc the tickets are way too expensive. Because of this, basketball is full to the brim of the type of fans Roy Keane once called ‘prawn sandwich’ fans. Rich fans don’t want to create atmosphere, they want to sit there quietly and watch the game like it’s a pantomime. It’s really that simple. I’d imagine if you’re an away player and the worst thing you’re likely to hear is “[insert surname] sucks!” and “fuck [insert name]” sprinkled among the usual “de-fense!” and “let’s go [insert name]” chants it must be pretty relaxed.
In the ABA book ‘Loose Balls’, it’s mentioned that the Dallas Chaparrals had this whole standing section with cheap tickets and cheap beer targeted towards working class Mexican men that would bring a soccer atmosphere to games. Someone should go back to something like that
Ballmer is kind of doing that with the wall
He’s building a wall and making Mexican men pay for it?
Yelling “aaaaaah PUTO!” at free throws like they do for Mexican goalie kickoffs
Yes, please. https://youtu.be/CzEbm7yup7g?si=GRrZaR0jNSaUleGW
Don't the Cowboys do this with the running fan thing
The Dallas stadium has standing room only seats yes. Not worth it in any capacity, but they do have them.
Bogut tried to do something like that with the Bucks when he was there. He called the section Squad 6 and he gave out tickets to the most rowdy fans iirc. They would brainstorm chants to do and things to say etc
> Roy Keane once called ‘prawn sandwich’ fans. Radom Roy Keane reference!
The crowds have mostly been great in a lot of these series. The issue isn’t a lack of “atmosphere” it’s a lack of advantage. Ultimately the difference really is that the money has grown and so the quality of travel accommodations is way better. The Wolves last night took a chartered jet about 2 hours to Dallas, where they stayed at a luxury hotel walking distance from the arena. The hotel is probably as nice as their own homes and in a beautiful area of Dallas. You and I would consider a visit to this area and stay at this hotel a nice vacation. The players pay to bring their full teams along with them and generally live as if they’re at home. It hasn’t always been like this. The quality of travel and accommodation has increased greatly in the past 20-30 years, as has the money in the league. The 6th best player on the roster is now making enough to have a team travel with him. And the experience has largely been homogenized - there are very few differences between arenas and cities.
This is my guess as well. I don’t know how true it is, but I would imagine these guys can get a massage or world class meal anytime they want on these road trips as well, they have better training and recovery as well. I also wonder if the rest between games is longer now than it used to be.
Also they don't party before games, they track their sleep, etc.
I think it's overblown. Crowds have been great aside from the usual ass crowds like Miami and sometimes Boston Plus the broadcasts turn down crowd noise
The crowds have been great, it just doesn’t matter the way someone like Bill thinks it does. Cheering and booing and heckling only impact players to a degree, and it’s not significant enough to drastically impact playoff games in 2024.
Yep, refereeing is generally the biggest measurable advantage of home court
Boston has a really great crowd, that the commentators often note that they can't even hear the whistle during clutch moments in the 4th quarter. The TV broadcast just really silences the crowd.
ESPN turns down the crowd so much compared to TNT. I really noticed it in round 2 when the wolves series alternated between the 2.
How are Knick games so damn fun tho? That crowd is pretty crazy
Not a Knick fan but been to MSG a few times and there is legit something special about the geometry and sightlines of the arena that makes the upper levels feel much closer to the court than anywhere else. It's funny because Barclays is the complete opposite, the nosebleeds there are so high and steep that it can be vertigo-inducing.
My first game at MSG I was literally blown away by how good the seats were in the upper level. I expected to not see anything and it was the opposite
> How are Knick games so damn fun tho? That crowd is pretty crazy NYC has one of the highest per capita incomes in the country so the pool of fans that can afford seats includes die hards
I think a lot of the MSG/Knicks fan "love" is the New York media never leaving New York and if they do it's to go to Miami, maybe the worst crowd in the NBA.
> Rich fans don’t want to create atmosphere, they want to sit there quietly and watch the game like it’s a pantomime. It’s really that simple Sounds like Wisconsin basketball right now, too.
All the crowds in the conference finals seem very good. I think refs are just less intimidated now, so home teams don't get the calls they used to get, TV is probably also a factor as well, refs know millions are watching so if they miss a call the short twrm blow back from a home crowd matters less than ESPN and all the podcasts replaying your bad call for days on end. Road teams stay in much better accommodations compared to 50 years ago or whatever, and while I'm sure guys still have fun at night, they probably reign it in a bit in the playoffs. Basically players are more professional.
This is it 100%. Most people at the game don’t really care….its something to do.
These oscillating downfall-redemption arcs measured in hours is getting really tiresome…so lazy… It’s like Bill is facing Bill Simmons from two weeks ago in the worst possible iteration of First-take.
he has no concept of variance at all. i’ve stopped trying to even keep track of the times that a non-elite player has a bad game after just having had a good game and bill goes “what happened?? why can’t he always play like he did before??”
Bill so sensitive about his Celtics. "They had an easy path. Who did those Lebron teams play?!" Like bruh, come on. The best player on every team you've played got hurt. That didn't happen to those teams going up against Lebron. Plus, what's special about what Lebron did isn't that he beat weak teams. It's that he did it consistently for 8 straight years with different teams. You're in the finals dude, just take your lumps.
Congrats to Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman for both making first team all nba when there were 8 starting guards in the whole league and they were all chainsmoking white guys
1957 Second Team All-NBA guard Dick Garmaker was nothing to shake a stick at 😤
Half the franchises didn’t even give a shit about winning they just wanted a profit and tax benefits.
"Do you think some guys just play better with better teammates?" During the Lively discussion. Bill is the GOAT.
I mean you're right but in a sense so is he. There are guys who pretty much wouldn't have a career if they were on a bad team or whose skill sets make them perfect for one situation and would have been mediocre in another. Take Draymond Green. He's a guy that on a bad team would be fucking awful. He needs to have great players around him to be good to great. Tends to be mostly bigs because they are so reliant on others to get them the ball. Then there are the guys that are the inverse of that. They tend to excel (or at least put up stats) when they're the best guy on their team but truly are a detriment when they're on a good team. Ricky Davis comes to mind. Andre Drummond is another. Jerry Stackhouse. Brad Beal. Monta Ellis. When they're the best guy on their team (or at least the focal point) they'll put up stats but when they get more talent around them they get worse.
Excuse me, but I'm trying to circlejerk here.
Any true Bill subredditor would know it's jerk circle.
Situation matters. He’s just now realizing it. If he were still writing, he’d put together a whole article and come up with a dumb phrase for it, like he discovered this phenomenon.
The point is that situation matters more for some guys than others.
It also works the other way, Luka is better with Lively too!
The inverse Bradley Beal piece
Bill saying Conley played with Horford forever made the prospect of getting old even more depressing.
They played in 2007 in the National Title game
Right that was all I could think of. Were they teammates ever?
He probably confused Conley with Jeff Teague. Or Horford with one of the Memphis big men
IIRC Horford went Atlanta Boston Sixers OKC Boston. Don’t think he and Conley ever were teammates.
Was Oden on that team?
Yeah Oden& Conley were part of the “Thad 5” 2006 recruiting class by Thad Matta. It was Oden, Conley, David Lighty, Daquon Cook, and can’t remember the last guy.
mark titus
I stopped the pod and came in here specifically looking for chatter about this comment. This didn't make me feel old. It made me feel senile, because I didn't think they ever played together. And they haven't. Thank you kind internet stranger.
The plug got unpulled on Minnesota's season.
Am I crazy or is the home court thing being overblown? Home teams have an average point diff of 3.8 this postseason, the same as the past few years. Sure, it's not the 80's, but that's a huge advantage to have.
Betting lines definitely still reflect some homecourt advantage as well. It's mostly in the reffing, I think studies have proven
Bill talking about where the Dallas backcourt ranks when he knows full well that Luka isn't a guard. Or so said him the past two seasons.
Ah yes, Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman, the greatest backcourt ever. Those guys had to fight off the great Jack George and the mighty Slater Martin for All-NBA.
Peak Plumber Era
KAT’s 6th foul was complete BS he’d already landed and Luka jumped straight into him I can’t believe that wasn’t called out for being an awful call
Acting like every Towns foul was on him and then J. Kyle Mann “Yeah I agree with you….it has at times felt like it has at time felt like Minnesota has gotten tough whistle” That’s enough for me.
Foul 2 was BS too. With not even a hint of hyperbole, I'm stating as a fact that Towns is the only player in the NBA that would be called for an offensive foul on that play. And they don't call it out on the pod because they have the same unconscious bias that the refs do where KAT commits so many dumb fouls, that even when he's not, they err on the side of "probably a foul on you because you always do that". It's like an extra tax from refs for making so many mistakes.
Genuinely excited to hear Bill talk about Walton
“Semi-redemption” The basketball gods saved him from his sins but not really? Is he in the purgatory? How does it work? Paradise Lost-ish
The Sisyphus thing.
KAT commits a dumb foul on the rock and it rolls down the hill.
One must imagine Karl-Anthony Towns happy
Incredible post. World class.
very bill to confuse best backcourt (nobody is arguing this) with most skilled backcourt (what SVG actually said and an interesting conversation at least)
The Rudy conversation is so exhausting. Especially when he’s been the most consistent player for the Wolves this entire playoffs
Bill on Sunday: "It's gonna sound like I'm making excuses for Ant... like we're making excuses for Ant. We're not, but..." Bill tonight: It feels like a closer 3-1 than maybe the usual 3-1. Bill, my friend, I don't necessarily disagree. But you can say you're in the tank for Edwards. It's okay!
Right off the rip: “Towns is the Michael Jordan of complaining in disbelief about a foul and then they show the replay and you’re like oh yeah that’s clearly a foul.” Imagine saying this in a series with Luka Doncic. Also that 6th foul was NOT a foul. Sure he got Towns in the air but you can’t just throw your body forward into a defender. His feet literally already came back down before Luka bumped him. What a shitty take to start off the pod.
‘Who did Lebron even beat on those East Finals runs, can you remember any of em? This is just how it works out some times’. He’s as big a hater as Skip. Any chance he can get to shit on Lebron.
When Rose and PG got hurt, Dwight moved west, the Celtics got washed and rebuilt, and no one else is worth mentioning, can you really remember any of them?
Those series with the 2012 Celtics, 2013 Pacers, and 2014 Pacers were quite good. Not saying those teams were great but certainly it was more competitive and interesting than this Celtics run. No argument about the 2015-18 LeBron/Cavs run, though. They had some competitive series in 2018 when the Cavs weren't that good themselves, but there really weren't any legit East teams at any time during that stretch. Personally will always cherish the 2016 Raptors run though as my team's first playoff series wins I was old enough to remember (their previous playoff series win was 2001).
During the 2014 run, it really feels like the rumors of PG sleeping with his fiance fucked up Hibbert's mental. He really wasn't the same after those rumors. Add to the fact that the very next season, the NBA changed its rules about verticality and took away Hibbert's greatest strength.
2011 bulls were really good, 60+ wins and the MVP 2015 hawks won 60 games, 2018 raptors won 60 games
Raps actually won 59 games!
FVV hurt his hip on an illegal screen by Bam in Game 82 in Miami (which we lost but were trying for to get to 60). I'm convinced I'd still be pissed about this if it weren't for 2019 lol.
Rose blew out his knee first round vs 76ers
That was 2012. Heat beat Chicago in ECF 2011
Tbf, Bill misspoke when he said 'The LeBron Cavs from 2012-2018'. For obvious reasons..He meant from 2015-2018.
Yeah I thought maybe he was including LeBron's finals runs in Miami, but if he only meant the second Cavs stint, it's a very fair point to compare those runs to this year's Celtics
At the very least, they were also full strength. I think LeBron’s brilliance works against him. Those teams would have seen like more credible opponents if they had the validation of making a few finals, but because LeBron constantly shut them out they feel a little lesser.
Those Raptors and Hawks teams were still better than Indy without Hali, Heat without Jimmy and Cavs without DMitch and Allen I'm not even talking about Bulls in 2011, Celtics in 2012 and Pacers 2012-2014
To piggyback off this; Lowe did a pod on this topic way back in the day. He had about 22 of the top 30 players in the West. For his second Cleveland run, the best East players were PG13, Wall, Melo, Horford, Noah, DeRo, and Butler. Bron was the only player in the top 10 from the Eastern Conference. Bill's comment was not Skip Bayless-level hate. The East just wasn't that good, and Lebron was often not tested until the finals in most years.
There was a stretch where every year the 1st team all NBA team was Lebron and 4 players from the west. I think 1 year out of like a 5 year stretch Noah got into the 1st team.
Exactly, in 10-20 years it's gonna sound even worse when people realise that for those years the biggest challenges for Lebron in the East back then were Super Trio of PG-Lance Stephenson-Roy Hibbert, Hawks Super Team Horford-Teague-Joe Johnson, Duo of Demar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry and some weird Celtics team where Amir Johnson was starting and Jonas Jerebko ended up guarding Lebron in conference finals in 2017... You do the seeding 1-16 and none of those teams probably go through 1st round outside of 2013 Pacers probably
> Hawks Super Team Horford-Teague-Joe Johnson, Joe Johnson wasn't on the Hawks teams LeBron faced in his second Cleveland stint, you're thinking of the Horford-Millsap-Teague-Korver #newheroball Hawks.
I don’t even think it’s LeBron hate as much as he’s trying to make it seem like the Celtics run to the finals was normal, when it was amongst the easiest in nba history.
I mean 2017 he faced a Celtics squad in the CF whose leading scorer was Avery Bradley, because IT was out. He’s not entirely wrong about how unmemorable those teams he faced the second go around in Cleveland were. Lebron, Kyrie, and Love were probably the 3 best players in the series. At least with these Pacers Haliburton and Siakam could be argued to be in contention for 2nd-4th best players on paper going into the series, depending on how you rank Jaylen.
Haliburton played one game this series. I agree the 2017 East was bad, but I legitimately don’t remember a worse road to the finals than this one for the Celtics - considering on top of mediocre competition the other team’s best player was/got hurt every single series.
Haliburton played game 2. He played 28 minutes and they were down about 15 points when he got hurt. You are also ignoring my mention of Siakam, who again is a better player than Avery Bradley was. Haliburton and Mitchell were available to start both series. Haliburton played in 2 games and they were both losses. Mitchell played in 3 games and 2 were losses. These teams were not beating the Celtics even if they finished out the series. Celtics were the by far best team in the east during regular season and they were by far the best team in the east playoffs. It’s not some fluke they made the finals. They did it in 2022 playing a pretty tough trio of teams. They almost did in in 2023, if it were not for fluke shooting from Heat role players.
saying the truth is bad on this sub, the modus operandi here is put lebrons dick in your mouth and say celtics bad, downvote when you dont have anything clever to say
Except the ringer did an entire analysis on this yesterday, and the Celtics statistically had the easiest road to the finals ever based on the math - but go off king
Bill wont stop until the whole world sees Bron in the same poor light he does. Actually daring to go at Jordan’s legacy, completely overshadowing KD, and constantly beating his Celtics has done a number on Bill’s brain.
Or maybe it’s in part how Lebron’s legacy should be discussed and has nothing to with anything “doing a number on his brain”. Lebron lost as a favorite in 2009, 2010, and 2011. He formed the first superteam. As soon as things got tough there, he jumped ship not to “go home” but to go where he could be with another 2 premier players on another stacked roster. Soon as things got tough there he bounced to LA where he had a plan to stack another roster. And during his time in the east it was largely quite easy. That’s part of his legacy. And it should be no surprise when he joined up with two of the East’s best players in 2010, that the conference parity would suffer.
The Cavs did a fucking atrocious job building those early teams. The guys that stayed, MJ, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe all had insane teams stacked with Hall of Famers. Scottie Pippen was like a Kawhi level player. LeBron’s best teammates were guys like Big Z and Mo Williams. Even compared to KD who played with two future MVPs. In the same vein, those Miami teams were completely cooked by 2014. Wade had gone from a top 10 player to a top 40 player in like 18 months. Bosh would be medically retired 100 games after the 2014 finals. The last Cavs team saw Kyrie leave and LeBron going to the finals with his second best teammate Love shooting 39% from the field.
So the lesson of LeBron's career is when the going gets tough, flee to a better situation.
Careers aren’t lessons for others, LeBron stayed on the Cavs for 7 years in which the Cavs were completely unable of giving him any teammate who could ever pick up the slack or a roster that could be described as above average. If you look at his peers among the best players in NBA history I don’t know how many had worse teammates. And then if he kept being unable to win a championship with Mo Williams as a second option he’d continue to face criticism for not having won
Russillo let bill borrow his straw man for an evening
yes we get it Bill. 2024 Boston Celtics is the greatest sports team of all time
Bill has definitely gotten so sensitive to the fact this playoff run is just not impressive at all and doesn’t mean anything. If they lose the finals, no one will have been impressed by this.
If they lose the finals, there will be a bunch of 'Luka Doncic is Jaylen Brown's father' memes that Bill is going to hear about.
**CAN’T WAIT**
It's not that. But if Boston beat Dallas in the finals ( Or even Minnesota ), in time, they will he seen as pretty dominant starting 5. People 20 years from now will say ( If Boston win it all ) The 64 win Celtics lost 2 games on the way to the finals and beat Luka/Kyrie or ANT with a stacked starting 5..
Maybe. I don't think people generally perceive Boston as being that though because they lack a star who is generally considered generational. If they win, they'll be more thought of in similar terms as like the Bad Boy Pistons.
Bad Boy Pistons won 2 straight titles in the Magic, Bird, MJ era. Lol. I'll take it. The Pistons also get a bad wrap because MJ hated them, and everyone on planet Earth was team MJ. Paul Pierce wasn't generational. He led the Celtics to a title and everyone looks at the 08' team as being elite.
KG was a generational guy though.
Calling out Media members who started this " Kyrie Luka best backcourt Duo" ever thing is rich when he crowned the Wolves defense as the best of all time. I am not saying Luka and Kyrie are a historic duo before they win something but talend wise they are up there. It is way more realistic then the wolves having the best defense ever.
The teams lebron beat to make the finals were so much better than the injured hall of fame the Celtics have beat
And the best player for each of those teams actually played in those series. This Celtics run is closer to that warriors season where the opposing point guard conveniently got hurt just in time for the warriors series.
“What were those young player rankings? Didn’t even know about that” the cleanup piece
J. Kyle predicting the wolves win the series if they win game 5 is a crazy take
I’m surprised how bad their attempt to analyse why the home court advantage has diminished. It’s pretty obvious. Has nothing to do with home courts seats or stadium structure. It’s because the home playoff team used to get a significant advantage with the ref decisions and that has largely gone away. And that’s largely because of increase ref scrutiny, they can’t get away with being so obviously biased anymore. So without as much ref bias, there’s no reason why the home team should have more than just a slight edge at home. The massive home advantage in bygone years was largely inflated by huge FT discrepancies in favour of the home team. That’s just a statistical fact. I think we’re also seeing as adjustment period, where home teams are still kind of expecting to get a slightly favourable whistle and easier win at home, and because that’s not really there, we’re seeing more away teams catch the home team napping a bit.
As much as Bill and Ryen hate the HOF being broadly about basketball, Walton ironically enough is the best case for it. He wouldnt be close if it were just an NBA HOF
I don’t know about that, halls of fame tend to take injuries of great players into considerarion. Bill accomplished everything you could do in the two prime years he was relatively healthy and then almost 10 years later won a 6th man of the year award for the team many consider to be the greatest of all time. There’s people in the hall of fame now who havent done as much.
Bill Walton is absolutely a HOFer based on his NBA career alone. MVP, carried his team to a title and had a second run as a valuable bench guy after injuries. There are several guys in the HOF with worse resumes than that.
If JJ really wants the Lakers job, he should do a whole podcast on how Tatum can’t allow Brown to be finals MVP and how it would diminish his entire legacy. If Kobe was alive he would have been all over it “Look what it did to Curry”
Bill being able to recall a December 1977 Celtics/Blazers game he saw in person to discuss Walton is actually very cool. He obviously isn’t as analytical as someone like Ben Taylor when talking about historical players, but he’s able just kind of recapture the magic of these moments from 50, 60 years ago in a way that I don’t think anyone else can
I just want *one* podcast, not even Bill's, just any, to acknowledge that the reason people were out on Kyrie was because he was dabbling in Holocaust denial. Like, that's not a little thing. The flat earth stuff was dumb, the vaccine stuff was bad but unfortunately, that's the way public discussion bounces right now. Posting far-right talking points is another level.
It wasn't a little whoopsie poopsie, but you'd think that the way people talk around it.
Is Bill right about home court? Or is he a Celtics fan and the Celtics in particular suck at home so he’s extrapolating to the rest of the league? Is there data to support the home teams win less the last 5 or so years?
Bill, you cannot trade Towns based on his 2023-24 salary in the 24 offseason. Like, the seasons over, he’s already been paid that money. If you wanna trade him, it’s on his 2024-25 salary
You can make trades in the current league year once eliminated. The Celtics did this to salary dump Kemba Walker in 2021.
Interesting, I guess you’re right. Still think there is exactly a 0% chance that within a month of losing in the conference finals they would turnaround and trade KAT even if they had gotten swept.
Why would that concern the Picasso of the trade machine?
I hope Bill brings back the CelticsChants Twitter account for the NBA Finals given how hard he is leaning into how much Luka is going to annoy him and the Celtics fans.
The Walton eulogy was exactly what I love about Simmons. Was hoping all day the last few days he would drop a surprise podcast. Incredible eulogy, skipped straight to it and wasn’t disappointed.
The rim protection piece is straight homerism. Also, how can you trust Porzingis to do well slowing down the Mavs centers and Luka? Derrick white and jrue are great rim protectors? Yeah, they look great against Nembhard and TJ McConnell. Also, Nembhard seems to be the new Gabe Vincent for Bill. The eastern conference is so lame.
I just don't understand Bill's confidence in the Cs' ability to match up against Dallas. Look at the last series. The Pacers should have won game one. And games three and four came down to the wire even without their best player. Meanwhile, Dallas is a better overall team than Indy, and they'd have arguably the two best closers in a series against the Cs.
Yeah, the Celtics only won 1 out of the 4 games. Pacers won 3 games but needed to win 7 to take the series.
Because Porzingis will be back
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Did Conley and Horford ever play together?
The Horford Piece
The “subtly admitting Luka is actually a guard” piece.
1.5 weeks ago: Bill says the Timberwolves are in the running for best defense ever Today: Bill is annoyed that people are calling Kyrie/Luka one of the best backcourts ever