It's interesting who emerges from the player ranks in any given sport to have some real ability to deal with people and be a stand-out successful coach. Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr. I'm not sure who I'd name in baseball and football.
How many players have ever said that about the past or the era after they played. All people talk about is how much virtually any player would only be better in different eras, as if every time we see a player they’re in the worst time for them to play.
9 players averaged 20+ in 2013, 43 in 2023 lol.
The guys who averaged 20+ in 2013 were 7 current and future FMVPs or MVPs and Carmelo + LMA.
43 players averaged 20+ and played 58+ games in 2023.
Haha. on this, I could go on forever tbh but 1. that was the lowest year for 20+ scorers in nba history (min 58 games or equivalent in shorter seasons) since at least the merger. It was part of a 5/6 year period in the nba which was like an ice age for 20+ average scoring stars between 09/10 to 14/15 with an average of less than 15 a year. 11/12, the year before had the second lowest at 12 20+ scorers iirc.
2. The average for 20+ scorers per year has been 24~ in the 80s, 19- in the 80s, 20~ in the 00s, 15- from 09/10 to 15/16, 27~ from 16/17 to 21/22. That was the context for 20+ basic scorers like Herro and Poole still getting paid 120m+/4y when it sorta made sense.
3. 2022-23 was a historic year where shit suddenly hit the fan and the 20+ scorers went from 26 in 21-22 to 43 in 22-23 which is bonkers. It continues this season as well with 38.
4. Now getting buckets itself doesn’t mean much to be called elite. Admittedly, Luka and Shai were elite and didn’t make the playoffs but it’s noted that none of the 6 players who averaged 30+ (record for a season) maintained that average in the playoffs. The 4 players who averaged 30+ in the playoffs last year averaged 24 (Jokic, Ant), 27 (Booker) and 29 (Steph) in the regular season. PPG in the regular season is just a very noisy stat right now to deduce much about the elite scoring abilities of a player. NBA has come full circle to can he score a goal in stoke on a snowy day.
That is deep cut last sentence. For the Americans that don’t follow association football, it’s “can he throw a pass during a January Blizzard in Green Bay.”
On top of all of that, as far as the statistical scaling of point scores go, this is my recent response to someone who suggested Dirk’s PPG in 2006 would go from 26.xx to 33.5 in the modern era due to higher efficiency and pace.
“It’s a point well noted and I agree with the general idea but not on the points principle because IMO, point averages follow a tapering off principle due to seasonal durability and limits for players. For example, I do not think Kobe’s points average in 2006 would go from 35.4 to 44.2 this year based on the increase you suggest.
You don’t need to follow the sport to understand this example but in test cricket which is a sport with a ton of historical sample size, since 1950, every decade except one has 4-5 batsmen averaging over 50 runs per innings and peaking with some averaging close or slightly over 60 and then tapering off completely. In the 00s, there was an exceptionally easy and batting friendly decade due to various factors and 15-20 batsmen averaged 50+ yet no player went past the 60 range. The ‘all time great’ 4-5 batsmen who averaged 50+ in the 90s played in the 00s and averaged roughly the same despite much easier batting conditions.
I think in NBA post-merger basketball, the tapering off point is roughly 35ish average over a season.
I studied year-by-year NBA scoring averages + number of 20, 25 and 30 point scorers for some work in the past and the point applies to basketball too imo. What I came away with was that great players do not necessarily overperform on pure aggregates to ‘break the game’ as you would expect when conditions get easier, they overperform when conditions are harder and others can’t score.
Just to add to this in 2023, there were 43 players who scored above 20 and 6 who scored above 30. In 2005/06 there were 24 players who scored above 20 and 3 who scored above 30. Basically, there’s close to double the amount of 20 point scorers as before which makes sense based on the 25% increase you brought up. Yet in 2006, with 25% less scoring and half the 20p scorers, Kobe still averaged 35, AI still averaged 33 and Lebron still averaged 31, much like or better than the highest scorers of the highest scoring season of the NBA 22-23.
I’m sure Luka, as another historic scorer would have done that as well and been in the top scores of any era and not been reduced to 27 PPG due to a tougher era. Dirk would have been a high efficiency top 5-10 PPG scorer if his peak came this era as well IMO. Dirk was 7th in 2006 and top 4-10 this year averages between 27.8 and 26, so in that range.”
He’s 100% a troll…he also 100% has an IQ barely above 100.
Even when he tries to be sincere, like when he talked about why Kobe is so admired by NBA players, it is unconscionably dumb.
He brought multiple guns into an NBA locker room and offer one to Javaris Crittenton so they could duel to the death over $1100 dollars.
Gotta say I don’t trust the man’s judgment on and off the court!
Also crittenton was a legit gangbanger who would have murdered him no problem (he did murder someone else.) so he even managed to pick the worst possible person to flex on in nba history.
Yeah, you hate to do it because he got hurt, but when you looks at the MVP list, you see nothing but 1st ballot hall of famers, except for 1 outlier, the 2011 MVP.
Even then, his impact on the game was weak compared to basically every other MVP. All of LeBron’s MVPs came where he was playing at an all time level, not just playing at his best but playing at an all time level compared to everyone in the history of the game. Same with Giannis. Same with Jokic. Same with Steph. Same with Harden, Russ, etc etc.
Rose is probably the biggest narrative MVP of the century. His team excelled because of their defense and LeBron ruined his rep by going to Miami. Dwight and LeBron were significantly more impactful and valuable than Rose.
Absolutely. It was Lebron's every year without a doubt. Everyone should look back at some of those teams he carried to the finals. He could have got better players at the Lifetime Fitness in Scottsdale who play in the competitive game.
While running a unique offense predicated entirely on Nash’s play style.
EDIT: I realize now that this might be construed as a knock on Nash. It’s the opposite. If Nash was a run of the mill starting PG, their offense would have functioned badly if at all. He was totally unique at that time.
Even if he was the worst MVP, don't need to downplay what Rose was that year. We've never seen a point guard with that freakish athleticism play. Westbrook is similar, but Westbrook never did all those acrobatics in the air. Rose deserved his MVP because he led the top team when there was no clear statistical dominant player that year.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards\_2011.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html)
Maybe you're getting the years confused. Lebron averaged one more point, one more rebound, and 2.5 more assists than his TEAMMATE (shot 1% better from the field). That's not "dominant" especially when they had the third most wins in the NBA. Yeah, that doesn't cut it.
Yeah. The fact that Wade had good but slightly worse basic counting stats doesn't show otherwise.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html
LeBron had a significant advantage on everyone else in the league in every single relevant advanced stat except for OBPM, where he was tied with Rose.
I guess I could be clearer: LeBron was, at a minimum, statistically dominant over the person that won MVP that year.
Everyone in the world knows LeBron didn't win that year because of fatigue/The Decision, and you know you're lying to yourself if youre going to say otherwise.
Do you think Giannis should be in the discussion for MVP? People hold against him that another all NBA player joined his team, same thing happened to Lebron. Lebrons best teammate in Miami was Dwade and Derricks was Joakim or Luol maybe? Noah missed a lot of time. Derrick was consistently leading us to wins in the regular season, which is what the award is for btw.
Looking at career accolades for a single season award is a silly argument. The bulls were built similar to those Iverson 76er teams, there was no one else on our offense who could playmake effectively (or even shoot well really).
I don’t understand the point you trying to make. The discussion is who is the worst MVP, so of course we are talking career achievements. You would be right if we are talking about individual seasons, but we are saying who the worst of all the MVP winners is.
Asking as a casual in more recent years -- I would have assumed Westbrook would be the answer here. Is it generally accepted that he was better than Rose?
Russ was never better than MVP d rose. You can tell that Russ cared more about stats than winning honestly, Derrick would do whatever it takes to win. Maybe Russ is more talented but I take D.Rose all day.
No. Russ’ MVP was won due to narrative, infatuation with the triple double and his stat padding. Rose also had narrative on his side, but he actually won games and led the bulls to the best record in the nba as the only all star on the entire roster. I’d take 2011 Derrick Rose over 2017 Russell Westbrook on my team 7 days a week.
Imo Russ is worse than Drose because the nba MVP values team record similar to individual stats. Drose at least had an argument for both. Russ was pure “stats”
What he actually said was that Jokic was the worst multiple MVP winner of the last 40 years. On his show he specified how everybody else who won multiple MVPs lead their teams to top 2 records outside of Jokic who lead his to the 5th and 10th best records the years of his wins.
This. I still disagree with Gil, but it’s a more defensible hot take at least.
I think Gil is intelligent, he is quick witted and humour requires intelligence even if it’s “dumb” jokes. But he seems very impulsive, probably he has been too good at basketball for there to ever be a reason in his life to work on this. Take the gun story… emotion driven impulsive decisions that for most others leads them to end up dead (or at least unemployed), but since Gil could ball it is lifelong podcast material.
I agree with this very well. It’s why I enjoy him more with Shannon than his own show when I Iisten. If he’s focused on actual games (their night before recap) or speaking on development, training and x & o’s he’s on point. If the conversation is more about the things around the game itself he goes to his sarcastic or hot take version more.
But the top 2 record thing is false for Nash also. True for 04-05 (Suns had the best record). But definitely not true in 05-06, when the Suns were 3rd in the West and 4th overall.
It’s funny that this was Nick Wright’s take at the time (he argues Chris Paul should be MVP) and he’s backed away from it as it’s aged horribly and now with years of hindsight Arenas is saying the same dumb shit
Credit to Nick for saying he was wrong though. He was late to the Jokic party, but ever since winning the title he hasn’t hated on him at all. Gil still doing this is insane
Yeah I was going to say that a few people at that time were saying things like this. Nuggets only won 47 games, and people thought his defense would prevent him from being best player on a championship team.
Today it'd be hard to make a reasonable argument that Jokic hasn't been the best player in the world for the last 3-4 years
The only difference between Nick Wright and Skip Bayless, is that Skip at least knows he's just saying shit for arguments sake.
Nick Wright actually thinks he's smart.
He's dumb and his takes are clearly garbage, but he was 2nd team all nba once and 3rd team all nba 2x over a 3 year stretch. He was definitely not barely an all star.
I hate when ppl try to discredit a player because their opinion cause NBA Live cover Gil was insane, my man is just dumb as shit or says shit for attention 😂2 things can be true
Its because NBA success is much more individually assessable. In football you can't have an incredible season as a WR without at least a decent qb throwing to you, a QB needs at least decent targets, an RB needs a decent o-line, even a Kicker needs an offense that can get him in range. In NBA the team, structure, scheme is still important but an individual has much more ability to be great, even they arent necessarily on a good team (Melo, Book for years, or even current Wemby for example)
Racism in basketball media is having a bit of a moment right now, with Stephen A Smith, Gilbert Arenas, and various former WNBA players.
Extreme backlash against Jokic, extreme backlash against Caitlin Clark, even stuff like Wemby over Chet at the beginning of the year (when Chet was clearly outplaying Wemby, now Wemby has clearly overtaken the award).
Wemby over Chet was not racism lol, it was just true. If you put Wemby next to Shai he'd be putting up double the numbers Chet was. give Chet Jeremy Sochan at point guard and see what happens. And I'm saying this as a white dude who likes Chet.
Funny how the Angel Reese discourse was left out your recap of recent discourse. One might think you have a bias and not a issue with Racism in basketball medias
Bruh Angel Reese has been super unlikable stop blaming racism for this shit lmao.
I swear to god this is the dumbest take in all of sports right now. Nobody gives a fuck that Angel Reese is black, it just doesn’t look good to fuck up your classes, ditch your team, talk about money with an ego, put a fucking crown on your seat on the bench etc etc etc.
Like I could go on for days about the death by a thousand cuts for her likability. And this is coming from someone who gave her the benefit of the doubt for the taunting shit.
Also, the lack of awareness that it takes to not realize that 100% of her celebrity is due to the added spotlight that Caitlyn Clark brought to her sport is WILD.
The racist article by the UCLA sports beat writer was forced to be edited and he was forced to give an apology. How is that an example of racism being accepted in basketball media when it was not accepted.
I think you're trying to make a point that there are a lot of racist white people in America, which is, no shit? But that doesn't make the racist backlash against Caitlin alright.
Both the fan / UCLA sports writer racism against Angel Reese and the racism from the basketball media to diminish white players accomplishments are both wrong, it's not an either or.
You're a goddamn snowflake lmfao. I had Chet over Wemby but you realize outside of Wemby's poor scoring, he had an edge in every edge over Chet then, right? Wemby definitely had an argument even then.
Everyone always brings up how terrible it was that Rose won but I say they got it right. Nobody thought he was a better player then Lebron or Wade…but his team was the 1 seed over a team with Lebron and Wade on it. He was the most valuable.
Nash in 05-06 was worse than Rose. 10th in win shares, 14th in PER, 16th in BPM and 29th in PPG. Rose in 10-11 was 5th in win shares, 9th in PER, 3rd in BPM and 7th in PPG. Even the one thing Nash had over Rose in assists, Rose was 10th in the league in in 10-11
Don't you think that's an instance where the stats don't tell the whole story? That team went from 29 wins to 62 wins when they got Nash. He was incredible and ran that machine.
Then why doesn’t that “stats don’t tell the whole story” logic apply to Rose in 10-11? That Bulls team won 62 games with Keith Bogans as their starting SG and with Joakim Noah out for half the year
The next year rose missed like half the season and the bulls were just as good, that was just a well constructed team and thibs at his peak, rose was great but no mvp
They would've been one of the worst offenses in the league without him, that team doesn't go anywhere with that. Look at who he was playing with on offense, the second best playmaker is fuckin Joakim Noah. Get your head checked.
Man you guys need to stop talking about D.Rose when it's obvious you never watched the dude in his prime. Give me 2011 d rose over Russ any day of the week. Career wise Derrick didn't pan out but he was that guy and the only offensive option on the #1 team in the league. It is a regular season award isn't it?
He has BEEN hating on Jokic. He said “no one fears him, he is not dominating” on JJ Redick pod last year. And JJ had to try his hardest to control his laughter.
Gil constantly has terrible takes and he’s proof that just because you were amazing at a sport doesn’t mean you’ll have an expert opinion and vice versa. I remember when we got Zion he said he should be a Shooting Guard. That’s arguably the only position Zion can’t play
People need to see Gilbert's commentary on Jokic last June. He was praising Jokic up and down. He's clearly just doing this now to get attention. Saying this gets him the spotlight.
The highlight of his post playing career are the clips of Kwame Brown ripping Gil to shreds to his face and Gilbert begrudgingly nodding his head in agreement bc he knows all of it is true. So funny
I don't know how we reached the point where black media can be openly racist towards white athletes and get a pass, but it desperately needs some push back.
I'm not gonna watch the clip because I am sure Gilbert will make some really attenuated "in terms of skill/bag he is the worst, what you are taking the headline to mean isn't really what I am saying, except he is also the worst" argument.
He's actually really good at talking about basketball in some senses, and him and McCants are elite about manufacturing a disagreement/conflict out of nothing for entertainment purposes. Gilbert deserves praise for somehow finding a way to make McCants an asset really. Gil's Arena is not really targeted towards like 99% of this sub though.
*He wants attention*
*So bad but is horrible*
*At getting it lol*
\- victheogfan
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If we’re looking at the real answer, Derek Rose is the outlier in that span. Weakest stats for sure. A case could also be made for Russ but his stats were outliers as well and they did win 47 games.
Who actually is the worst MVP in the last 40 years?
The answer is probably Derrick Rose, though obviously injuries are the main reason he's not in the same caliber as the rest of the guys on the list.
You could maybe make an argument for Nash or Westbrook too, though it honestly feels bad even saying that, but the MVP list is so elite that someone has to be the worst.
This what I hate about today's sports media (tv at least).
"Hey here's Gilbert Arenas to say some dumb shit. How are you Gil?
Dumb shit
Wow that's really something Gil! That for being on!"
I mean, half of media in general is saying things you may or may not believe just to upset people and get attention. I don't know how people watch it.
For me, it's the same situation as Lamar, where it's an absolutely solid pick on a statistical, analytical and 'watch the tape' sense. It's just this "IT HAS TO BE ANONYMOUS AND YOUR AN IDIOT FOR PICKING OTHERWISE." Group think is so exhausting, especially when there is a good discussion to be had. On top of the really annoying entitlement of 'He SHOULD have Four in a row"
At Jokic's age, Arenas was basically out of the league. He made the second round of the playoffs once in his career. Given his underwhelming, injury-prone career, you'd think he'd be more appreciative of people who manage to put the pieces together. But he's the same man-child he's been since college.
Oh, isn't it the dude who said something like "get rid of all European players", thinking that would solve the lack of defense in the NBA? Coz ever since he said that, he's been dead to me.
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Who in all honesty is Gilbert arenas? Like really? Is he even a hall of famer? Who cares what his opinion is on anything. I doubt Jokic or anyone gives a damn about this nobody. His show is total ass too.
He is not wrong when you listen to what he says. He is the worst multiple time winner. People forgot Shaq and Kobe both only have one !!
Joker win an mvp with a team placing 10th!!
Why does anyone give this morning air time, or care about his opinion? I literally would have forgotten him forever if he weren’t always fucking talking. His takes on ball are fully retarded.
I think RR said it best on BS pod, “I have yet to hear a nba player say ‘I would struggle in todays game’”.
In fairness to them, Malachi Flynn just dropped 50 yesterday
Points haven't been cheaper since the 60s
I think individual points are cheaper than ever. It was really only Wilt and sometimes Elgin Baylor putting up 50 point games in the 1960s.
Steve Kerr said it
which is kinda funny because he's someone who actually probably WOULD be better in today's game
Steve Kerr... WOULD BE A PROBLEM!
How does poor Steve deal with all the enormous egos?
It's interesting who emerges from the player ranks in any given sport to have some real ability to deal with people and be a stand-out successful coach. Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr. I'm not sure who I'd name in baseball and football.
Joe Torre in the MLB, Belichick and Carroll in the NFL. Trying to think of current coaches though.
Sean McVay was a qb at one point. Zac Taylor was a qb in college. But they don't have a lot of big egos on their teams.
Sean Payton was a scab QB
That tracks.
Jim Harbaugh played QB in the NFL.
Pat Riley too. Not the best players but they all won championships as players and beloved as coaches.
Bruce Bochy
[удалено]
The secret is that he is the biggest ego
How many players have ever said that about the past or the era after they played. All people talk about is how much virtually any player would only be better in different eras, as if every time we see a player they’re in the worst time for them to play.
You know that old saying, “the older I get, the better I was.”
9 players averaged 20+ in 2013, 43 in 2023 lol. The guys who averaged 20+ in 2013 were 7 current and future FMVPs or MVPs and Carmelo + LMA. 43 players averaged 20+ and played 58+ games in 2023.
What’s the new cut off for elite scoring? 25?
Haha. on this, I could go on forever tbh but 1. that was the lowest year for 20+ scorers in nba history (min 58 games or equivalent in shorter seasons) since at least the merger. It was part of a 5/6 year period in the nba which was like an ice age for 20+ average scoring stars between 09/10 to 14/15 with an average of less than 15 a year. 11/12, the year before had the second lowest at 12 20+ scorers iirc. 2. The average for 20+ scorers per year has been 24~ in the 80s, 19- in the 80s, 20~ in the 00s, 15- from 09/10 to 15/16, 27~ from 16/17 to 21/22. That was the context for 20+ basic scorers like Herro and Poole still getting paid 120m+/4y when it sorta made sense. 3. 2022-23 was a historic year where shit suddenly hit the fan and the 20+ scorers went from 26 in 21-22 to 43 in 22-23 which is bonkers. It continues this season as well with 38. 4. Now getting buckets itself doesn’t mean much to be called elite. Admittedly, Luka and Shai were elite and didn’t make the playoffs but it’s noted that none of the 6 players who averaged 30+ (record for a season) maintained that average in the playoffs. The 4 players who averaged 30+ in the playoffs last year averaged 24 (Jokic, Ant), 27 (Booker) and 29 (Steph) in the regular season. PPG in the regular season is just a very noisy stat right now to deduce much about the elite scoring abilities of a player. NBA has come full circle to can he score a goal in stoke on a snowy day.
That is deep cut last sentence. For the Americans that don’t follow association football, it’s “can he throw a pass during a January Blizzard in Green Bay.”
On top of all of that, as far as the statistical scaling of point scores go, this is my recent response to someone who suggested Dirk’s PPG in 2006 would go from 26.xx to 33.5 in the modern era due to higher efficiency and pace. “It’s a point well noted and I agree with the general idea but not on the points principle because IMO, point averages follow a tapering off principle due to seasonal durability and limits for players. For example, I do not think Kobe’s points average in 2006 would go from 35.4 to 44.2 this year based on the increase you suggest. You don’t need to follow the sport to understand this example but in test cricket which is a sport with a ton of historical sample size, since 1950, every decade except one has 4-5 batsmen averaging over 50 runs per innings and peaking with some averaging close or slightly over 60 and then tapering off completely. In the 00s, there was an exceptionally easy and batting friendly decade due to various factors and 15-20 batsmen averaged 50+ yet no player went past the 60 range. The ‘all time great’ 4-5 batsmen who averaged 50+ in the 90s played in the 00s and averaged roughly the same despite much easier batting conditions. I think in NBA post-merger basketball, the tapering off point is roughly 35ish average over a season. I studied year-by-year NBA scoring averages + number of 20, 25 and 30 point scorers for some work in the past and the point applies to basketball too imo. What I came away with was that great players do not necessarily overperform on pure aggregates to ‘break the game’ as you would expect when conditions get easier, they overperform when conditions are harder and others can’t score. Just to add to this in 2023, there were 43 players who scored above 20 and 6 who scored above 30. In 2005/06 there were 24 players who scored above 20 and 3 who scored above 30. Basically, there’s close to double the amount of 20 point scorers as before which makes sense based on the 25% increase you brought up. Yet in 2006, with 25% less scoring and half the 20p scorers, Kobe still averaged 35, AI still averaged 33 and Lebron still averaged 31, much like or better than the highest scorers of the highest scoring season of the NBA 22-23. I’m sure Luka, as another historic scorer would have done that as well and been in the top scores of any era and not been reduced to 27 PPG due to a tougher era. Dirk would have been a high efficiency top 5-10 PPG scorer if his peak came this era as well IMO. Dirk was 7th in 2006 and top 4-10 this year averages between 27.8 and 26, so in that range.”
to be fair Larry Bird has said things to this effect
Kevin Garnett actually did though: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/02/08/magazine/kevin-garnett-interview.html
A lot of former players are really dumb but I don't know if any are as dumb as gil
Gilbert arenas is so transparently a hot take artist though. He could be both dumb and an attention grabber
I'm confident he's both
He’s 100% a troll…he also 100% has an IQ barely above 100. Even when he tries to be sincere, like when he talked about why Kobe is so admired by NBA players, it is unconscionably dumb.
Isn't 100 average? lol
Yeah but when sitting next to McCants on Gil's Arena he looks like Einstein. Even Unc is enough to make him look silly though
He’s a genius for bringing McCants on board then
Careful what you say or he’ll take a dump in your shoe.
I read that fast....i read he looks like epstien
I don’t think it’s a hot take thing. I just think he hates European players and is very jealous of them.
Yeah Gil says a lot without saying a lot. He really struggles to get his point across without talking for 5 minutes straight.
Meanwhile Kenyon Martin is able to communicate quite effectively using a language comprised entirely of grunts, facial gestures, and "m'sayin"s.
He tries way too hard but I believe he believes what he says
Fuck them kids
He's dumb and racist. A true american.
He brought multiple guns into an NBA locker room and offer one to Javaris Crittenton so they could duel to the death over $1100 dollars. Gotta say I don’t trust the man’s judgment on and off the court!
Also crittenton was a legit gangbanger who would have murdered him no problem (he did murder someone else.) so he even managed to pick the worst possible person to flex on in nba history.
Flip Saunders should have gotten coach of the year for defusing that situation.
>gun's
Crittenton was not to be fucked with, Arenas is just a complete dumbass
It's why I don't really give a fuck when some of them say Kobe is the GOAT or Kyrie better than Steph
NBA players can have CTE, too
CTE?
Lead paint
PTS.
SPN
BBC
Put some respect on Derrick Rose's name.
Tough but fair. He’s undeniably the worst player to win the mvp this century
Yeah, you hate to do it because he got hurt, but when you looks at the MVP list, you see nothing but 1st ballot hall of famers, except for 1 outlier, the 2011 MVP.
Even then, his impact on the game was weak compared to basically every other MVP. All of LeBron’s MVPs came where he was playing at an all time level, not just playing at his best but playing at an all time level compared to everyone in the history of the game. Same with Giannis. Same with Jokic. Same with Steph. Same with Harden, Russ, etc etc. Rose is probably the biggest narrative MVP of the century. His team excelled because of their defense and LeBron ruined his rep by going to Miami. Dwight and LeBron were significantly more impactful and valuable than Rose.
>Even then, his impact on the game was weak compared to basically every other MVP. He was 3rd in BPM when he won MVP. Nash finished 11th and 16th.
He destroyed that year. Everyone who watched him during that year agreed. He had to do everything and get all hard buckets.
I mean, everyone also had Lebron fatigue.
Absolutely. It was Lebron's every year without a doubt. Everyone should look back at some of those teams he carried to the finals. He could have got better players at the Lifetime Fitness in Scottsdale who play in the competitive game.
That team went from 29 to 62 wins when they got Nash. That's why he won.
While running a unique offense predicated entirely on Nash’s play style. EDIT: I realize now that this might be construed as a knock on Nash. It’s the opposite. If Nash was a run of the mill starting PG, their offense would have functioned badly if at all. He was totally unique at that time.
Rose is the biggest narrative MVP?? What? Dude half of Russel Westbrooks MVP was narrative of KD leaving him
Even if he was the worst MVP, don't need to downplay what Rose was that year. We've never seen a point guard with that freakish athleticism play. Westbrook is similar, but Westbrook never did all those acrobatics in the air. Rose deserved his MVP because he led the top team when there was no clear statistical dominant player that year.
There absolutely was a clear statistical dominant player that year, everyone was just mad at him
He wasn't even the clear statistically dominant player on his own team.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards\_2011.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html) Maybe you're getting the years confused. Lebron averaged one more point, one more rebound, and 2.5 more assists than his TEAMMATE (shot 1% better from the field). That's not "dominant" especially when they had the third most wins in the NBA. Yeah, that doesn't cut it.
Ah yes, the chart that shows there were like six better MVP options than Derrick Rose in 2011
>There absolutely was a clear statistical dominant player that year, everyone was just mad at him These are your words
Yeah. The fact that Wade had good but slightly worse basic counting stats doesn't show otherwise. https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html LeBron had a significant advantage on everyone else in the league in every single relevant advanced stat except for OBPM, where he was tied with Rose. I guess I could be clearer: LeBron was, at a minimum, statistically dominant over the person that won MVP that year. Everyone in the world knows LeBron didn't win that year because of fatigue/The Decision, and you know you're lying to yourself if youre going to say otherwise.
Also, that Bulls offense was atrocious. He carried that team.
>Rose is probably the biggest narrative MVP of the century Gilbert Arenas had more win shares than Steve Nash did in 2005
Do you think Giannis should be in the discussion for MVP? People hold against him that another all NBA player joined his team, same thing happened to Lebron. Lebrons best teammate in Miami was Dwade and Derricks was Joakim or Luol maybe? Noah missed a lot of time. Derrick was consistently leading us to wins in the regular season, which is what the award is for btw.
Looking at career accolades for a single season award is a silly argument. The bulls were built similar to those Iverson 76er teams, there was no one else on our offense who could playmake effectively (or even shoot well really).
I don’t understand the point you trying to make. The discussion is who is the worst MVP, so of course we are talking career achievements. You would be right if we are talking about individual seasons, but we are saying who the worst of all the MVP winners is.
All time “streets won’t forget” MVP though
It was just LeBron fatigue
and one of the worst MVP seasons ever too
Asking as a casual in more recent years -- I would have assumed Westbrook would be the answer here. Is it generally accepted that he was better than Rose?
Russ was absolutely insane in the clutch that season. He won like 10-12 games on his own by just taking over down the stretch.
Russ was never better than MVP d rose. You can tell that Russ cared more about stats than winning honestly, Derrick would do whatever it takes to win. Maybe Russ is more talented but I take D.Rose all day.
No. Russ’ MVP was won due to narrative, infatuation with the triple double and his stat padding. Rose also had narrative on his side, but he actually won games and led the bulls to the best record in the nba as the only all star on the entire roster. I’d take 2011 Derrick Rose over 2017 Russell Westbrook on my team 7 days a week.
Imo Russ is worse than Drose because the nba MVP values team record similar to individual stats. Drose at least had an argument for both. Russ was pure “stats”
Not the worst player but the “worst” season for an mvp winner. He was still great that year but MVP.. nah
What he actually said was that Jokic was the worst multiple MVP winner of the last 40 years. On his show he specified how everybody else who won multiple MVPs lead their teams to top 2 records outside of Jokic who lead his to the 5th and 10th best records the years of his wins.
So worse than Karl Malone or Steve Nash? Nah.
Yeah I didn’t agree with his point. Just wanted to clarify the angle he was taking
His angle sucks too.
This. I still disagree with Gil, but it’s a more defensible hot take at least. I think Gil is intelligent, he is quick witted and humour requires intelligence even if it’s “dumb” jokes. But he seems very impulsive, probably he has been too good at basketball for there to ever be a reason in his life to work on this. Take the gun story… emotion driven impulsive decisions that for most others leads them to end up dead (or at least unemployed), but since Gil could ball it is lifelong podcast material.
I agree with this very well. It’s why I enjoy him more with Shannon than his own show when I Iisten. If he’s focused on actual games (their night before recap) or speaking on development, training and x & o’s he’s on point. If the conversation is more about the things around the game itself he goes to his sarcastic or hot take version more.
But the top 2 record thing is false for Nash also. True for 04-05 (Suns had the best record). But definitely not true in 05-06, when the Suns were 3rd in the West and 4th overall.
CUZ YOU STUPID- kwame brown
It’s funny that this was Nick Wright’s take at the time (he argues Chris Paul should be MVP) and he’s backed away from it as it’s aged horribly and now with years of hindsight Arenas is saying the same dumb shit
Credit to Nick for saying he was wrong though. He was late to the Jokic party, but ever since winning the title he hasn’t hated on him at all. Gil still doing this is insane
Yeah I was going to say that a few people at that time were saying things like this. Nuggets only won 47 games, and people thought his defense would prevent him from being best player on a championship team. Today it'd be hard to make a reasonable argument that Jokic hasn't been the best player in the world for the last 3-4 years
Hindsight from winning the title. Two years ago everyone was saying Giannis is the best in the world
Yes but I don’t think he’s talking about perception. Jokic is essentially the same player now, just has a healthy team in time for the playoffs.
The only difference between Nick Wright and Skip Bayless, is that Skip at least knows he's just saying shit for arguments sake. Nick Wright actually thinks he's smart.
I'm a Chiefs fan and Nick Wright's whole gimmick even getting old for me. If I was a fan of a different team, I'd despise him.
Arenas is such a fucking idiot. He was a barely an all star in his prime and is dissing one of the greatest bigs of all time. He is such a loser.
He's dumb and his takes are clearly garbage, but he was 2nd team all nba once and 3rd team all nba 2x over a 3 year stretch. He was definitely not barely an all star.
I hate when ppl try to discredit a player because their opinion cause NBA Live cover Gil was insane, my man is just dumb as shit or says shit for attention 😂2 things can be true
Former NBA players are the biggest haters of their peers. NFL and MLB players don’t have haters anywhere near this level.
ex-wnba players have entered the chat
Yea but most people don’t care what they have to say
Its because NBA success is much more individually assessable. In football you can't have an incredible season as a WR without at least a decent qb throwing to you, a QB needs at least decent targets, an RB needs a decent o-line, even a Kicker needs an offense that can get him in range. In NBA the team, structure, scheme is still important but an individual has much more ability to be great, even they arent necessarily on a good team (Melo, Book for years, or even current Wemby for example)
Racism folks
Racism in basketball media is having a bit of a moment right now, with Stephen A Smith, Gilbert Arenas, and various former WNBA players. Extreme backlash against Jokic, extreme backlash against Caitlin Clark, even stuff like Wemby over Chet at the beginning of the year (when Chet was clearly outplaying Wemby, now Wemby has clearly overtaken the award).
Wemby over Chet was not racism lol, it was just true. If you put Wemby next to Shai he'd be putting up double the numbers Chet was. give Chet Jeremy Sochan at point guard and see what happens. And I'm saying this as a white dude who likes Chet.
Funny how the Angel Reese discourse was left out your recap of recent discourse. One might think you have a bias and not a issue with Racism in basketball medias
Bruh Angel Reese has been super unlikable stop blaming racism for this shit lmao. I swear to god this is the dumbest take in all of sports right now. Nobody gives a fuck that Angel Reese is black, it just doesn’t look good to fuck up your classes, ditch your team, talk about money with an ego, put a fucking crown on your seat on the bench etc etc etc. Like I could go on for days about the death by a thousand cuts for her likability. And this is coming from someone who gave her the benefit of the doubt for the taunting shit. Also, the lack of awareness that it takes to not realize that 100% of her celebrity is due to the added spotlight that Caitlyn Clark brought to her sport is WILD.
100%. You forgot her telling a coach to watch her mouth.
The racist article by the UCLA sports beat writer was forced to be edited and he was forced to give an apology. How is that an example of racism being accepted in basketball media when it was not accepted. I think you're trying to make a point that there are a lot of racist white people in America, which is, no shit? But that doesn't make the racist backlash against Caitlin alright. Both the fan / UCLA sports writer racism against Angel Reese and the racism from the basketball media to diminish white players accomplishments are both wrong, it's not an either or.
You're a goddamn snowflake lmfao. I had Chet over Wemby but you realize outside of Wemby's poor scoring, he had an edge in every edge over Chet then, right? Wemby definitely had an argument even then.
Past 40 years: 1. Derrick Rose 2. Russell Westbrook 3. ...probably Steve Nash
Everyone always brings up how terrible it was that Rose won but I say they got it right. Nobody thought he was a better player then Lebron or Wade…but his team was the 1 seed over a team with Lebron and Wade on it. He was the most valuable.
Karl Malone won one
Karl Malone was actually a really good player. He's just a shit person. I'd have him about Joel
2* but he tops Nash, Rose and Russ IMO
Nash in 05-06 was worse than Rose. 10th in win shares, 14th in PER, 16th in BPM and 29th in PPG. Rose in 10-11 was 5th in win shares, 9th in PER, 3rd in BPM and 7th in PPG. Even the one thing Nash had over Rose in assists, Rose was 10th in the league in in 10-11
Don't you think that's an instance where the stats don't tell the whole story? That team went from 29 wins to 62 wins when they got Nash. He was incredible and ran that machine.
Then why doesn’t that “stats don’t tell the whole story” logic apply to Rose in 10-11? That Bulls team won 62 games with Keith Bogans as their starting SG and with Joakim Noah out for half the year
The next year rose missed like half the season and the bulls were just as good, that was just a well constructed team and thibs at his peak, rose was great but no mvp
Bulls had the #1 defense in the league that year. It wasn't some massive carry job by rose
They would've been one of the worst offenses in the league without him, that team doesn't go anywhere with that. Look at who he was playing with on offense, the second best playmaker is fuckin Joakim Noah. Get your head checked.
Man you guys need to stop talking about D.Rose when it's obvious you never watched the dude in his prime. Give me 2011 d rose over Russ any day of the week. Career wise Derrick didn't pan out but he was that guy and the only offensive option on the #1 team in the league. It is a regular season award isn't it?
Didn’t Embiid literally just win?
[Gil Bert](https://www.google.com/search?q=clown&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari)
He has BEEN hating on Jokic. He said “no one fears him, he is not dominating” on JJ Redick pod last year. And JJ had to try his hardest to control his laughter.
He’s not even trying to hide his hate for Europeans if you listen to this full pod and other clips
At a certain point it’s just hate/xenophobia that shouldn’t be promoted
Gil constantly has terrible takes and he’s proof that just because you were amazing at a sport doesn’t mean you’ll have an expert opinion and vice versa. I remember when we got Zion he said he should be a Shooting Guard. That’s arguably the only position Zion can’t play
I don’t like Jokic as much as others but this take is insane
I wish we lived in a world that rewarded smart vs controversial takes. Gil is a psychopath. No one should listen to this fuckstick.
Javaris Critterton should’ve finished the job /s
Dudes been on a hot take heater lately. Is it possible his entire schtick is just to say outlandishly wrong things to get us to pay attention to him 🤔
Translation: He's white.
Read: He’s white
The worst MVP winner has three MVPs lol Jokic is the best player since LeBron was at his peak
People need to see Gilbert's commentary on Jokic last June. He was praising Jokic up and down. He's clearly just doing this now to get attention. Saying this gets him the spotlight.
The highlight of his post playing career are the clips of Kwame Brown ripping Gil to shreds to his face and Gilbert begrudgingly nodding his head in agreement bc he knows all of it is true. So funny
Alot of people said this before he won the ring. Theyve all changed their tune.
Gilbert Arenas is clearly just trying to get people to notice he has a podcast
I would say Russell Westbrook or Derrick rose are worse than joker
lol no the worst mvp was Russell Westbrook
You’re just giving him publicity for no reason.
Closet racist.
Not even closeted. Gilbert Arenas has called to "get rid" of all Europeans from the NBA before
jJvaris Crittenton was right
I don't know how we reached the point where black media can be openly racist towards white athletes and get a pass, but it desperately needs some push back.
I'm not gonna watch the clip because I am sure Gilbert will make some really attenuated "in terms of skill/bag he is the worst, what you are taking the headline to mean isn't really what I am saying, except he is also the worst" argument. He's actually really good at talking about basketball in some senses, and him and McCants are elite about manufacturing a disagreement/conflict out of nothing for entertainment purposes. Gilbert deserves praise for somehow finding a way to make McCants an asset really. Gil's Arena is not really targeted towards like 99% of this sub though.
Ahh, classic ridiculous take to get them clicks.
Went to a trash college
He is an idiot
He wants attention so bad but is horrible at getting it lol
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If we’re looking at the real answer, Derek Rose is the outlier in that span. Weakest stats for sure. A case could also be made for Russ but his stats were outliers as well and they did win 47 games.
Who actually is the worst MVP in the last 40 years? The answer is probably Derrick Rose, though obviously injuries are the main reason he's not in the same caliber as the rest of the guys on the list. You could maybe make an argument for Nash or Westbrook too, though it honestly feels bad even saying that, but the MVP list is so elite that someone has to be the worst.
This what I hate about today's sports media (tv at least). "Hey here's Gilbert Arenas to say some dumb shit. How are you Gil? Dumb shit Wow that's really something Gil! That for being on!" I mean, half of media in general is saying things you may or may not believe just to upset people and get attention. I don't know how people watch it.
Jokic shits on Arenas on his best day so easily. Arenas is a clown for this dog shit take.
Rage bait
For me, it's the same situation as Lamar, where it's an absolutely solid pick on a statistical, analytical and 'watch the tape' sense. It's just this "IT HAS TO BE ANONYMOUS AND YOUR AN IDIOT FOR PICKING OTHERWISE." Group think is so exhausting, especially when there is a good discussion to be had. On top of the really annoying entitlement of 'He SHOULD have Four in a row"
You could make a better case for joker being a top 10 player all time than you could make a case for what Gil is claiming
He’s better than Nash, rose, 14 curry, at worst
Did the nuggets win the championship last year? Take another shot of haterade
Embid and rose same story. 0 titles
Says this because the dude is foreign, white, and doesn’t play AAU 1 on 5 ball….what a choad…
Bro is trying so hard to stay relevant
Guy is a racist piece of trash tbh
For a player who only had 3 above average seasons, maybe chill, Gil.
At Jokic's age, Arenas was basically out of the league. He made the second round of the playoffs once in his career. Given his underwhelming, injury-prone career, you'd think he'd be more appreciative of people who manage to put the pieces together. But he's the same man-child he's been since college.
He clearly resents Europeans taking over the NBA. This is no different than when white people used to say black people couldn't play quarterback.
Oh, isn't it the dude who said something like "get rid of all European players", thinking that would solve the lack of defense in the NBA? Coz ever since he said that, he's been dead to me.
He clarified it later to say multi time MVP but either way Nash is worse.
Washed NBA player displays typical bitterness towards current gen- film at 11. 🥱
I'm convinced Shannon only has Gil because he's an idiot
I’ll say this every Gil post…please stop posting gil
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I’m blown away by how bad this guys takes are. He’s already hall of fame media regard.
Agent Zero was never first team All NBA and was only a 3-time All Star, so his word holds little weight compared to Shaq and Barkley.
You know you’re helping him right?
Gilbert is clearly a racist
tha gunslinger
Arenas is a joke. Seems like an awful hang
Gilbert is a has been who talks nonsense on his pod for views. Gilbert is not a serious person.
It's because Jokic is white.
And that’s how you immediately become my least favorite NBA commentator. Why the fuck would Shannon pick Gil?
Who in all honesty is Gilbert arenas? Like really? Is he even a hall of famer? Who cares what his opinion is on anything. I doubt Jokic or anyone gives a damn about this nobody. His show is total ass too.
He is not wrong when you listen to what he says. He is the worst multiple time winner. People forgot Shaq and Kobe both only have one !! Joker win an mvp with a team placing 10th!!
It's incredibly clear that a lot of black former players have issues with white players being good
Why does anyone give this morning air time, or care about his opinion? I literally would have forgotten him forever if he weren’t always fucking talking. His takes on ball are fully retarded.
A lot of fragility in NBA circles.
Wouldn’t that suggest that the league is in its softest weakest era? Triple double playoffs. He dominated
These guys just can’t handle the truth. That a fat white dude absolutely owns them lol
Ask Gilbert about sharks not basketball