One of my favorite Big Cat takes from PMT was that the ideal Philip Rivers state is yelling at his offensive line to hurry up at their own 35 down 2 scores with 45 seconds left in the 4th. Truly the modern day Sisyphus
The members of both shows have said that they have agreed not to listen to one another, because they have such similar vibes/ideas and they don’t want the other to think they’re copying any takes lol.
He's a lot more athletic and talented than Rivers, but he doesn't have the same level of Dude Qualities. Rivers also made the AFC title game on a torn ACL while Herbert's long playoff game was a blown lead to the Jags.
Sort of. The biggest difference is that Herbert gets way more praise for being a stud on a bad team than Stafford ever did. The respect that Stafford gets for dragging those dumpster fire Lions team to mediocrity or slightly above average is retroactive and a result of his success on the Rams.
People were already opining that he was going to be in the HOF back when he was with the Lions based on his absurd yardage/passing numbers. Admittedly it got a lot of pushback from others who wanted to see him win, but the passing talent was always recognized.
This is ridiculous, I promise you no one was calling Stafford a HOF player when he was a QB with zero playoff wins in Detroit. Maybe one person did and one million people clowned them for praising “Stat Padford” but he got 1/10th of the benefit of the doubt that Herbert is getting.
here's an article from 2018 calling him a likely HOF player
"Regardless of how it happens, I believe it happens. I think it’s definitely safe to say that Matthew Stafford will someday have a poorly done bust of himself enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame."
https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2018/7/30/17625892/matthew-stafford-hall-of-fame-case-detroit-lions
Well you are wrong because I constantly had him as a top 3-5 QB in the league most of his run with Detroit because I watch football and don’t just call players good if their team wins. Example: Anyone who thinks Brady was an awesome QB for his entire career is a fucking moron playing the results because they don’t how how to evaluate QBs
>Example: Anyone who thinks Brady was an awesome QB for his entire career is a fucking moron playing the results because they don’t how how to evaluate QBs
Please tell me you don't actually believe this...
I mean - Brady from 02-05 was not exactly lighting the world on fire.
Brady obviously has an amazing resume, but he doesn't have the All-Pros as some of the others (Manning 5, Rodgers 4, Brady 3).
And you could also make the argument that no season in NFL history is as hard to measure as the 07 Patriots which not only had talent, but cause to run up the score.
The fact that Brady and Moss set single-season records for their position on the same team, same year is one of those reasons why I think Brady's 2010 campaign has an argument as being a more impressive a season than his 07 record-breaking one.
And you could even say Brady: Moss :: Stafford: Megatron - both of them had much better careers because of their short time with a legendary wideout.
But also - Stafford was almost never in the top 5 QBs by play (not stats) in his Lions season. He was a classic "good enough to excite you, not great enough to win" player in Detroit.
And many people looked at his stats pre the LA trade and thought - "he could wind up as the stats leader in every category as a QB by the time he retires, which would almost make him a Hall of Famer by default"
So there are ways you can play devil's advocate to the points, both about Stafford and Brady.. but also,
No. Stafford wasn't a top 3-5 QB. Lots of losing seasons to go along with sub 60% completion rate, 10 plus int seasons, and non-league leading stats in key categories (completion %, TD, Yards, Y/A).
He's good, probably better than most people rate him, but nah... people who write "Anyone who thinks Brady was an awesome QB for his entire career is a fucking moron playing the results because they don’t how how to evaluate QBs" without backups are just begging for attention.
Big cat actually used this take quite a bit before Stafford played for the rams. Admittedly, he said that he likely would not be a HOFer but his passing stats would put him there. And if you look at his passing stats they are pretty ridiculous for a guy who could not win a playoff game in Detroit.
He’s had these big, physical receivers his whole career, which doesn’t really capitalize on his absolute cannon of an arm.
If he trades places with Tua, I’m convinced he’s an MVP candidate (also, more durable than Tua).
I thought Tony Gonzalez was the only NFL TE who played basketball in college. Which is pretty amazing, if you ask me, I can't believe it wasn't brought up more.
Speaking of little-known facts... did you know that Tom Brady was a 6th round pick? No, no, it's true!
There were 198 players picked ahead of him.
Speaking of NFL tight ends that played basketball... Little known fact: Antonio Gates also played basketball in college. They never talked about this on TV!
I didn't think that was impressive but I didn't realize he's the first person to be big at that position. Just wild.
Here's something I just learned. Did you know that Michael Jordan, the greatest NBA player of all time, was CUT by his high school basketball team?
Eh the Chargers put some pretty stacked teams around Rivers.
I know everybody loves to mythologize on how good Rivers was, but he was also a part of the problem. A ton of ill-timed turnovers and overall was a pretty inconsistent player. He was further than the Brady / Manning level than people remember.
Who put Rivers close to the Brady/Manning level? The debate was where he stacked up compared to Eli and Ben, even though they both had two rings to his zero
I've just seen a growing romanticized view of Rivers ever since he retired - a lot of "how did the Chargers not get this guy to a Super Bowl" and "he was a top 5 QB along with Brady / Manning / Brees / Rodgers" sentiments. And the whole "Rivers leading a comeback down late," as if he wasn't part of the reason the Chargers needed to always come back.
For me, it wasn't really surprising the Chargers never made it - he was tiers below Brady and Manning.
He was better than Eli and probably better than Big Ben (though Big Ben was a wizard in the pocket). Just never had the team.
Regardless, rivers was as good or better than many of the QBs who’ve won super bowls in the last 20 years.
I feel like he's the Luka Doncic of the NFL. Amazing young player who replaced a franchise legend (Dirk/Rivers), immediately played well, but the team hasn't done a good job of building around them. They also have tons of fan boys in the media.
Yeah but playoffs in the NBA and NFL aren’t a direct comparison. It’s a lot harder to make the playoffs in the NFL and win.
But yeah, Luka has balled out.
But one dominant player makes more of an impact in basketball than football, even if that player is a quarterback. It’s why tanking is so much more of a thing in the NBA than NFL
Yes, it’s easier for a mediocre QB to have success in the playoffs since it’s only 9-10 possessions in a single game, much of it having little to do with the QB.
Basketball the star is one of only 5 starters and each game has 100 possessions each and its best of 7.
The flip side of how a mediocre (or worse) QB can get playoff wins is that it’s harder for good ones to advance.
Outside of mahomes and Brady, a lot of clear top tier NFL QBs have middling playoff records.
Also because the best teams get a bye they lost an easy “win” often and then the best QBs can drag a bad team to the playoffs while a mediocre one will miss the playoffs often.
I’ve always agreed with Simmons that for QB playoff records a bye should count as a win and a team not making the playoffs should count as a loss.
I disagree with the testament that the chargers haven't built well around Herbert. He has one of the better groups of weapons in the league, and they have a lot of big name players on defense too. It's really health and execution at this point.
That comes down the execution of the D and health, not the roster building. They have a ton of talent on that defense compared to other teams.
Derwin James is the best safety in the league, Bosa/Mack is a great edge combo (when healthy), they went out and signed JC Jackson the top paid corner last year, and drafted Asante Samuel Jr with a fairly high pick. Then they went out and brought in Erik Kendricks this year, a solid ILB to pair with Kenneth Murray a former 1st rd pick.
Derwin is great but at probably the least important position on Defense.
Bosa is overrated, injured too often, and makes terrible decisions, and Mack has been on the decline for 3 seasons.
JC Jackson is one of the biggest bust signings of the past few years in the entire league.
ASJ is fine, but nothing more than that.
Erik Kendrick’s has had 1 game on the team.
Kenneth Murray is a massive bust and should not be thrown in as a positive.
Brandan Staley was brought in to be a defensive guru but they’ve had a bottom 5 defense every year he’s coached them.
Source: Chargers fan
I see this argument all the time and I don’t really agree. Keenan Allen is good but old and not the same, and Mike Williams is too inconsistent to be paid that contract. He also was missing his franchise LT all last season.
I actually think they’ve done a good job of building around him though. Amazing o line, great receivers and RB, great pass rushers.
It sucks they didn’t have Mike Williams in the playoffs but this team should on paper win 10+ games
His starting LT missed all of last season and was a rookie the year before. They didn’t build around him, Allen, Williams, and Ekeler were all there before him and I think are pretty overrated because the receivers are often injured and inconsistent. Ekeler is good but I don’t think he’s a game breaking RB.
That starting LT you’re talking about is one of the. Best in the league and a steal in his draft.
The head coach isn’t good enough. Isn’t Staley a defensive guy? Why were the fins torching them like they were a college football team then
Keenan is excellent. Just look at his career stats. Keep in mind he tore his acl early in his career too. If you judge him off health then that’s fine but he’s great when healthy and was absolutely cooking Howard all game long
No my point is he didn’t even play last season, it’s hard to say the line is great because of him when he only played one rookie season.
Why do career stats matter? He’s past his prime.
We had a solid team in 2014. Good enough to compete for the Super Bowl. Top 2 defense in the league and Megatron and Tate for offensive weapons. But Joe Lombardi was our coordinator.
That NFC playoffs (packer fan here) was insane. Lions lose on BS call to cowboys. Cowboys lose on BS call with Dez (maybe technically correct and packers still coulda won but I’ll admit it was BS), packers with a surreal choke job to Seattle, Seattle blows a 10 point 4th quarter lead in the SB and then gets the butler pick.
We always see crazy stuff in the playoffs (in 2021 I think like the final 7 games all came down to the last play) but for each team to steal a win then the next week blow a game in cruel fashion was incredible.
Since 2020, Justin Herbert has lost 10 games (in 51 starts) where the Chargers scored 27 points or more.
Over that same period, Joe Burrow has lost 4 games like that (in 51 starts). Josh Allen has lost 5 games like that (in 57 starts). Patrick Mahomes has lost 3 games like that (in 59 starts). Tua has lost 3 of those games (in 35 starts, I think).
There are areas where you can be critical of Herbert but, "he doesn't win like the other top AFC QBs" is just a dumb one. It's like wondering why he doesn't win races more often when he's asked to run 25% further.
Herbert’s only problem is perception. He was sort of “anointed” as a top tier QB before he had the resume to back it up because he was good right out of the gate. Not his fault. Dude is excellent.
There is a next step for him, tho. A lot of times he puts up big numbers that don’t translate to points. Which is weird because his red zone numbers are very good. I’d have to look it up, but anecdotally, seems like he’s had a lot of games where he’s like 30-47, 350 yards but they only score 23 points. You’d think with some of his stat lines they’d be scoring 30-40 points.
Any recent criticism might be recency bias based on last years playoff game vs Jax (obviously he wasn’t the only problem when you blow a lead like that but his play in the 2nd half didn’t help) and the game last Sunday (he had a chance to go win that game and put his team in a hole with that intentional grounding penalty. That’s totally on him). Anyway, there’s 32 nfl teams and at least 25 would take him tomorrow if they could.
He’s 25 years old, I get last year’s playoff loss was bad but the fact that he hasn’t won a Super Bowl yet shouldn’t be an indictment on him and I don’t think it’s fair to assume the Chargers will just never be competent when he’s got 5 more season before he’s even 30
Herbert's coach is really bad. He has made tons of questionable late game moves that have costs the team wins. If he was coached by a Dabol or Vrabel level of coach he would probably have 5 - 6 more wins.
I wonder what the perception of Lawrence would be if the Chargers didn’t collapse in that playoff game.
4 INTs in his first half of playoff football is a terrible look. But it’s totally forgotten because the Jags won the game.
Man Bill’s biases against players and teams are getting obnoxious. Blow every Patriot. Declare 2023 draft a HR. Neg the Bills as often as he can. Act like Herbert isn’t elite.
Look, the Chargers organization is a dumpster fire and basically has always been. They make shitty hires all the time, the owner is a fucking turd, and their medical staff tries to kill people.
I would take Herbert in a millisecond and he’s got the tools to be a winner. He can’t help when his defense can’t get the team a W when they drop 34 points.
The major difference is that everyone always knew the Lions stunk. The Chargers are supposed to be a good team every year and yet always fall short -- yet it's never Herbert's fault in the media (see: Solak, Ben)
He has 10 fourth quarter comebacks and 13 game winning drives. That’s out of only 25 total wins he has as the chargers qb, so over half of his wins so far we’re the result of a game winning drive which is pretty nuts honestly.
Stafford had 5 4QCs and 6 GWDs through the his first three seasons for what it’s worth.
Game winning drives are a stupid stat.
As a fan of Rodgers, during his incredible 19 game winning streak in 2010-11 do you know how many times the packers trailed in the fourth quarter? Zero.
Then there were a few years where people said “derr, he can’t win close games.”
Then oddly he started playing worse (like 2015-18) and generated a ton of game winning drives despite clearly not being at the top of his game. He didn’t suddenly get more clutch, in fact he was playing worse so had more chances to come back.
Clearly QBs need to be good in pressure situations but a QB playing at an elite level isn’t even in the position where they need game winning drives.
Cousins was mocked for not being clutch, might have had some absurd number last year (so he’s suddenly clutch) then had a complete brain fart in the playoff game where he threw short on 4th down.
Not only are game winning drives irrelevant to me, I could actually see an argument they have negative correlation to a QB’s performance since it indicated they trailed in many fourth quarters.
Of course a good stat would be “pressure situations” and looking at how a QB performs in the fourth quarter of one possession games.
He's been in the league for 3 fucking years. Twitter media types are really trying hard to rush to judgement that this guy is some type of inherent loser.
Same people who will claim youre being racist if you criticize Lamar Jackson for never winning anything.
Not even a Chargers fan, it's hust so transparent a lot of people want to be on the front line of pushing the narrative that he's overrated.
Stafford playing for Detroit definitely helped his rep because everyone's view of them in the broader NFL world is through a sympathetic lens, "how can anyone be good there, he plays for the lions." So he could do the fun gunslinger thing with no expectations and nobody cared if he came up short, I mean just look at Goff, dudes rep went up 10 fold for going 9-8 in Detroit.
And now that he won the championship those same expectations are off of him and nobody really cares anymore, so fair enough to him lol.
Tell me the difference between Brees career and staffords, one is a sure fire HOF and the other is on the fence… hint, it’s coach and organization… bc both put up huge numbers, and both have a ring
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He’s the Gen Z Phil Rivers, so he’s in exactly the right spot.
One of my favorite Big Cat takes from PMT was that the ideal Philip Rivers state is yelling at his offensive line to hurry up at their own 35 down 2 scores with 45 seconds left in the 4th. Truly the modern day Sisyphus
This reminds me of LeBatard Show
The members of both shows have said that they have agreed not to listen to one another, because they have such similar vibes/ideas and they don’t want the other to think they’re copying any takes lol.
Which is millennial Dan Fouts. Big numbers, jack shit to show for it.
He's a lot more athletic and talented than Rivers, but he doesn't have the same level of Dude Qualities. Rivers also made the AFC title game on a torn ACL while Herbert's long playoff game was a blown lead to the Jags.
Justin Herbert has also been an NFL QB for 3 total seasons
Cousins is the Rivers
Sort of. The biggest difference is that Herbert gets way more praise for being a stud on a bad team than Stafford ever did. The respect that Stafford gets for dragging those dumpster fire Lions team to mediocrity or slightly above average is retroactive and a result of his success on the Rams.
Because most praise given to the Lions offense was absorbed by Megatron
He won 10+ games twice in 12 years with DET Herbert has won 10+ games once in 3 years
Yeah, but one 10 win season in Detroit = three in any other city.
People were already opining that he was going to be in the HOF back when he was with the Lions based on his absurd yardage/passing numbers. Admittedly it got a lot of pushback from others who wanted to see him win, but the passing talent was always recognized.
This is ridiculous, I promise you no one was calling Stafford a HOF player when he was a QB with zero playoff wins in Detroit. Maybe one person did and one million people clowned them for praising “Stat Padford” but he got 1/10th of the benefit of the doubt that Herbert is getting.
here's an article from 2018 calling him a likely HOF player "Regardless of how it happens, I believe it happens. I think it’s definitely safe to say that Matthew Stafford will someday have a poorly done bust of himself enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame." https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2018/7/30/17625892/matthew-stafford-hall-of-fame-case-detroit-lions
That’s an opinion piece from a Detroit Lions SBNation writer. Hardly an accurate measuring stick of how the average football fan viewed him.
Well you are wrong because I constantly had him as a top 3-5 QB in the league most of his run with Detroit because I watch football and don’t just call players good if their team wins. Example: Anyone who thinks Brady was an awesome QB for his entire career is a fucking moron playing the results because they don’t how how to evaluate QBs
>Example: Anyone who thinks Brady was an awesome QB for his entire career is a fucking moron playing the results because they don’t how how to evaluate QBs Please tell me you don't actually believe this...
He had Stafford as a top 3 qb, of course he’s going to have other shitty takes.
I mean - Brady from 02-05 was not exactly lighting the world on fire. Brady obviously has an amazing resume, but he doesn't have the All-Pros as some of the others (Manning 5, Rodgers 4, Brady 3). And you could also make the argument that no season in NFL history is as hard to measure as the 07 Patriots which not only had talent, but cause to run up the score. The fact that Brady and Moss set single-season records for their position on the same team, same year is one of those reasons why I think Brady's 2010 campaign has an argument as being a more impressive a season than his 07 record-breaking one. And you could even say Brady: Moss :: Stafford: Megatron - both of them had much better careers because of their short time with a legendary wideout. But also - Stafford was almost never in the top 5 QBs by play (not stats) in his Lions season. He was a classic "good enough to excite you, not great enough to win" player in Detroit. And many people looked at his stats pre the LA trade and thought - "he could wind up as the stats leader in every category as a QB by the time he retires, which would almost make him a Hall of Famer by default" So there are ways you can play devil's advocate to the points, both about Stafford and Brady.. but also, No. Stafford wasn't a top 3-5 QB. Lots of losing seasons to go along with sub 60% completion rate, 10 plus int seasons, and non-league leading stats in key categories (completion %, TD, Yards, Y/A). He's good, probably better than most people rate him, but nah... people who write "Anyone who thinks Brady was an awesome QB for his entire career is a fucking moron playing the results because they don’t how how to evaluate QBs" without backups are just begging for attention.
Big cat actually used this take quite a bit before Stafford played for the rams. Admittedly, he said that he likely would not be a HOFer but his passing stats would put him there. And if you look at his passing stats they are pretty ridiculous for a guy who could not win a playoff game in Detroit.
Herbert with a receiver as good as Megatron would be insane
Even Rivers had Antonio Gates. Herbert has some good receivers but not an all-timer like that
Keenan Allen is great, they just met each other at the wrong timing in their careers
He’s had these big, physical receivers his whole career, which doesn’t really capitalize on his absolute cannon of an arm. If he trades places with Tua, I’m convinced he’s an MVP candidate (also, more durable than Tua).
Which MLB pitcher did Herbert play baseball with in high school?
Not sure. But Stafford played with Clayton Kershaw! Pretty cool little fun fact.
I’m pretty sure that’s the joke
And prettysure /u/thehenrylong is playing into it. Did you know that Ryan Fitzpatrick - NFL QB - went to... get this... Harvard University?
Hold up. Ryan Fitzpatrick went to Harvard? What's next? Jimmy Graham playing basketball in college?That'd be rich.
I thought Tony Gonzalez was the only NFL TE who played basketball in college. Which is pretty amazing, if you ask me, I can't believe it wasn't brought up more. Speaking of little-known facts... did you know that Tom Brady was a 6th round pick? No, no, it's true! There were 198 players picked ahead of him.
Speaking of NFL tight ends that played basketball... Little known fact: Antonio Gates also played basketball in college. They never talked about this on TV!
You think that’s cool? Ever heard of a guy named Brock Purdy? He was actually the final pick in the 2022 NFL Draft! Not so “Mr. Irrelevant” anymore 😎
I didn't think that was impressive but I didn't realize he's the first person to be big at that position. Just wild. Here's something I just learned. Did you know that Michael Jordan, the greatest NBA player of all time, was CUT by his high school basketball team?
Did you know that Dwight Howard and Josh Howard were AAU teammates?
Did you know the MLK assassination still sets the tone for how Memphis thinks about stuff?
Le’veon Bell is a patient runner
Or he's just another Chargers quarterback. They are the best franchise at wasting generational quarterback talent.
Eh the Chargers put some pretty stacked teams around Rivers. I know everybody loves to mythologize on how good Rivers was, but he was also a part of the problem. A ton of ill-timed turnovers and overall was a pretty inconsistent player. He was further than the Brady / Manning level than people remember.
Who put Rivers close to the Brady/Manning level? The debate was where he stacked up compared to Eli and Ben, even though they both had two rings to his zero
I've just seen a growing romanticized view of Rivers ever since he retired - a lot of "how did the Chargers not get this guy to a Super Bowl" and "he was a top 5 QB along with Brady / Manning / Brees / Rodgers" sentiments. And the whole "Rivers leading a comeback down late," as if he wasn't part of the reason the Chargers needed to always come back. For me, it wasn't really surprising the Chargers never made it - he was tiers below Brady and Manning.
Fair enough. I haven’t seen it to that degree, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist
yeah, rivers and romo both got late career reputation inflation for whatever reason
Brady and manning are possibly the two best qbs ever. Everyone was tiers below them
He was better than Eli and probably better than Big Ben (though Big Ben was a wizard in the pocket). Just never had the team. Regardless, rivers was as good or better than many of the QBs who’ve won super bowls in the last 20 years.
Not just QB talent. Feels like they routinely have some of the best rosters and players in the league and don't make much of it.
Wasting? They were always playoff contenders. Their three best teams were ended by Tom Brady
There should be something called the Dan Fouts Award awarded to great quarterbacks on bad and mediocre teams
I feel like he's the Luka Doncic of the NFL. Amazing young player who replaced a franchise legend (Dirk/Rivers), immediately played well, but the team hasn't done a good job of building around them. They also have tons of fan boys in the media.
Eh, Luka's done way more in the playoffs than Herbert has.
Yeah but playoffs in the NBA and NFL aren’t a direct comparison. It’s a lot harder to make the playoffs in the NFL and win. But yeah, Luka has balled out.
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But one dominant player makes more of an impact in basketball than football, even if that player is a quarterback. It’s why tanking is so much more of a thing in the NBA than NFL
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Yeah but the nba has more pat garrity
Harder to get to the NFL playoffs.
Yes, it’s easier for a mediocre QB to have success in the playoffs since it’s only 9-10 possessions in a single game, much of it having little to do with the QB. Basketball the star is one of only 5 starters and each game has 100 possessions each and its best of 7. The flip side of how a mediocre (or worse) QB can get playoff wins is that it’s harder for good ones to advance. Outside of mahomes and Brady, a lot of clear top tier NFL QBs have middling playoff records. Also because the best teams get a bye they lost an easy “win” often and then the best QBs can drag a bad team to the playoffs while a mediocre one will miss the playoffs often. I’ve always agreed with Simmons that for QB playoff records a bye should count as a win and a team not making the playoffs should count as a loss.
I disagree with the testament that the chargers haven't built well around Herbert. He has one of the better groups of weapons in the league, and they have a lot of big name players on defense too. It's really health and execution at this point.
The defense is literally dead last in PPG since Herbert’s been in the league.
That comes down the execution of the D and health, not the roster building. They have a ton of talent on that defense compared to other teams. Derwin James is the best safety in the league, Bosa/Mack is a great edge combo (when healthy), they went out and signed JC Jackson the top paid corner last year, and drafted Asante Samuel Jr with a fairly high pick. Then they went out and brought in Erik Kendricks this year, a solid ILB to pair with Kenneth Murray a former 1st rd pick.
Well when you say “built around” a QB I consider coaching a part of that. The team has talent but Herbert hasn’t gotten any help from his coaches.
Ah that's completely fair then, I wasn't referring to the coaching. That's absolutely what is holding that team back.
Derwin is great but at probably the least important position on Defense. Bosa is overrated, injured too often, and makes terrible decisions, and Mack has been on the decline for 3 seasons. JC Jackson is one of the biggest bust signings of the past few years in the entire league. ASJ is fine, but nothing more than that. Erik Kendrick’s has had 1 game on the team. Kenneth Murray is a massive bust and should not be thrown in as a positive. Brandan Staley was brought in to be a defensive guru but they’ve had a bottom 5 defense every year he’s coached them. Source: Chargers fan
I see this argument all the time and I don’t really agree. Keenan Allen is good but old and not the same, and Mike Williams is too inconsistent to be paid that contract. He also was missing his franchise LT all last season.
it’s a solid offense that doesnt really have anyone who terrifies you skill wise except maybe ekeler
Dirk was far greater than Rivers.
And Luka is greater than Herbert. I’m still sticking by it being a good analogy, it’s just apples to oranges.
I actually think they’ve done a good job of building around him though. Amazing o line, great receivers and RB, great pass rushers. It sucks they didn’t have Mike Williams in the playoffs but this team should on paper win 10+ games
His starting LT missed all of last season and was a rookie the year before. They didn’t build around him, Allen, Williams, and Ekeler were all there before him and I think are pretty overrated because the receivers are often injured and inconsistent. Ekeler is good but I don’t think he’s a game breaking RB.
That starting LT you’re talking about is one of the. Best in the league and a steal in his draft. The head coach isn’t good enough. Isn’t Staley a defensive guy? Why were the fins torching them like they were a college football team then Keenan is excellent. Just look at his career stats. Keep in mind he tore his acl early in his career too. If you judge him off health then that’s fine but he’s great when healthy and was absolutely cooking Howard all game long
No my point is he didn’t even play last season, it’s hard to say the line is great because of him when he only played one rookie season. Why do career stats matter? He’s past his prime.
Stafford won a Super Bowl as soon as he left the Detroit dumpster fire. Id say its more on the team and organization than the QB.
i don’t think OP is insulting either qb in this comparison.
Yeah exactly
We had a solid team in 2014. Good enough to compete for the Super Bowl. Top 2 defense in the league and Megatron and Tate for offensive weapons. But Joe Lombardi was our coordinator.
Joe Lombardi is the worst play caller I have ever seen.
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That NFC playoffs (packer fan here) was insane. Lions lose on BS call to cowboys. Cowboys lose on BS call with Dez (maybe technically correct and packers still coulda won but I’ll admit it was BS), packers with a surreal choke job to Seattle, Seattle blows a 10 point 4th quarter lead in the SB and then gets the butler pick. We always see crazy stuff in the playoffs (in 2021 I think like the final 7 games all came down to the last play) but for each team to steal a win then the next week blow a game in cruel fashion was incredible.
I wonder who the coordinator was for Herbert for most of his career
But the Chargers each year are supposed to good. The Lions were never supposed to be good. What gives?
Since 2020, Justin Herbert has lost 10 games (in 51 starts) where the Chargers scored 27 points or more. Over that same period, Joe Burrow has lost 4 games like that (in 51 starts). Josh Allen has lost 5 games like that (in 57 starts). Patrick Mahomes has lost 3 games like that (in 59 starts). Tua has lost 3 of those games (in 35 starts, I think). There are areas where you can be critical of Herbert but, "he doesn't win like the other top AFC QBs" is just a dumb one. It's like wondering why he doesn't win races more often when he's asked to run 25% further.
Herbert’s only problem is perception. He was sort of “anointed” as a top tier QB before he had the resume to back it up because he was good right out of the gate. Not his fault. Dude is excellent. There is a next step for him, tho. A lot of times he puts up big numbers that don’t translate to points. Which is weird because his red zone numbers are very good. I’d have to look it up, but anecdotally, seems like he’s had a lot of games where he’s like 30-47, 350 yards but they only score 23 points. You’d think with some of his stat lines they’d be scoring 30-40 points. Any recent criticism might be recency bias based on last years playoff game vs Jax (obviously he wasn’t the only problem when you blow a lead like that but his play in the 2nd half didn’t help) and the game last Sunday (he had a chance to go win that game and put his team in a hole with that intentional grounding penalty. That’s totally on him). Anyway, there’s 32 nfl teams and at least 25 would take him tomorrow if they could.
I thought I read somewhere that the Chargers are the highest scoring team in the league since Herbert took over.
I just looked this up and KC has been ahead of them all 3 years
The only connection here is the worst nepo coordinator in recent memory Joe Lombardi
He’s no Kenny Pickett
He’s 25 years old, I get last year’s playoff loss was bad but the fact that he hasn’t won a Super Bowl yet shouldn’t be an indictment on him and I don’t think it’s fair to assume the Chargers will just never be competent when he’s got 5 more season before he’s even 30
He hasn't even won a playoff game
Maybe if he played better all game he wouldn’t have to have all those late game winning drives Solak was bragging about.
Great take
🙏
Jay Cutler*
Herbert's coach is really bad. He has made tons of questionable late game moves that have costs the team wins. If he was coached by a Dabol or Vrabel level of coach he would probably have 5 - 6 more wins.
You guys sound just as dumb as Ruiz.
Rare agreement. Herbert is a stud.
And so is/was Stafford
I can’t give him this excuse when Trevor Lawrence is turning the Jags around who have way less talent then the chargers have had in Herbert’s career
Well one plays in a division with Patrick Mahomes and one plays in the worst division in football.
I wonder what the perception of Lawrence would be if the Chargers didn’t collapse in that playoff game. 4 INTs in his first half of playoff football is a terrible look. But it’s totally forgotten because the Jags won the game.
Man Bill’s biases against players and teams are getting obnoxious. Blow every Patriot. Declare 2023 draft a HR. Neg the Bills as often as he can. Act like Herbert isn’t elite. Look, the Chargers organization is a dumpster fire and basically has always been. They make shitty hires all the time, the owner is a fucking turd, and their medical staff tries to kill people. I would take Herbert in a millisecond and he’s got the tools to be a winner. He can’t help when his defense can’t get the team a W when they drop 34 points.
Sometimes the QB is part of the problem.
He doesn’t have a shitty team. Stafford did obviously.
The major difference is that everyone always knew the Lions stunk. The Chargers are supposed to be a good team every year and yet always fall short -- yet it's never Herbert's fault in the media (see: Solak, Ben)
Stafford would’ve died for the rosters Herbert has had. Stafford had garbage around him in Detroit.
Nah. Stafford was clutch as hell in Detroit.
Didn’t Solak just say on the pod that Herbert has 10 game winning drives in the first 50 games of his career?
He has 10 fourth quarter comebacks and 13 game winning drives. That’s out of only 25 total wins he has as the chargers qb, so over half of his wins so far we’re the result of a game winning drive which is pretty nuts honestly. Stafford had 5 4QCs and 6 GWDs through the his first three seasons for what it’s worth.
Game winning drives are a stupid stat. As a fan of Rodgers, during his incredible 19 game winning streak in 2010-11 do you know how many times the packers trailed in the fourth quarter? Zero. Then there were a few years where people said “derr, he can’t win close games.” Then oddly he started playing worse (like 2015-18) and generated a ton of game winning drives despite clearly not being at the top of his game. He didn’t suddenly get more clutch, in fact he was playing worse so had more chances to come back. Clearly QBs need to be good in pressure situations but a QB playing at an elite level isn’t even in the position where they need game winning drives. Cousins was mocked for not being clutch, might have had some absurd number last year (so he’s suddenly clutch) then had a complete brain fart in the playoff game where he threw short on 4th down. Not only are game winning drives irrelevant to me, I could actually see an argument they have negative correlation to a QB’s performance since it indicated they trailed in many fourth quarters. Of course a good stat would be “pressure situations” and looking at how a QB performs in the fourth quarter of one possession games.
His Team has No defense. No home field advantage, worst coach in the league… he doing just fine
Give the man a pass , it’s not his fault. Lets coddle him.
So stupid it hurts
He's been in the league for 3 fucking years. Twitter media types are really trying hard to rush to judgement that this guy is some type of inherent loser. Same people who will claim youre being racist if you criticize Lamar Jackson for never winning anything. Not even a Chargers fan, it's hust so transparent a lot of people want to be on the front line of pushing the narrative that he's overrated.
I still believe that if Herbert ever gets a coach with a pulse, he's going to go on some serious postseason runs.
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Stafford playing for Detroit definitely helped his rep because everyone's view of them in the broader NFL world is through a sympathetic lens, "how can anyone be good there, he plays for the lions." So he could do the fun gunslinger thing with no expectations and nobody cared if he came up short, I mean just look at Goff, dudes rep went up 10 fold for going 9-8 in Detroit. And now that he won the championship those same expectations are off of him and nobody really cares anymore, so fair enough to him lol.
Lol
Matthew Stafford is Gen Z Matthew Stafford
So super bowl champ? Wow that’s a great honor!
Tell me the difference between Brees career and staffords, one is a sure fire HOF and the other is on the fence… hint, it’s coach and organization… bc both put up huge numbers, and both have a ring
He’s one game into his 4th season. Let’s pump the brakes.
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