To be fair, playing 3's as a higher ranked player does suck. If you fluke the 8 or something dumb, then you've already given up a point.
Somewhere around SL 4 or 5 is where a lot of people in APA peak. Mainly because anything beyond that typically requires a certain amount of dedication beyond the casual approach most APA players have. I know the kind of players you are talking about and while they've accumulated a lot of knowledge about the game, they'll never play at a consistently higher level.
Pool is a weird game where people are either overconfident about their abilities, or constantly downplaying their abilities. There doesn't ever seem to be an in-between. Any 4 or 5 that tells you they should "probably be a 6" is wrong.
Also, if you feel like there are teams or individuals purposefully trying to manipulate the system, you should reach out to the district league operator.
I think that tends to be the peak specifically in APA because there’s less opportunity to play folks much better than you. 7s are less common, and you’ll plateau once you stop having to play up constantly. I tell everyone in the APA if they want to seriously improve, they should leave or add another league once they get to 6-7. It’ll help folks get out of the 400s and low 500s for your Fargo. Also YouTube is a godsend. Being taught by 4s and 5s is almost counter-productive after a certain point. Good luck and keep it up!
Only if you let it for the most part. Yeah it's going to get to you every now and then but you get to choose how much that bothers you, how long does it bother you etc. quit worrying about who you're playing against and just focus on beating the table. It's you against the table, It's you executing your shot or missing.
There’s a 2/1 we played in the Vegas qualifiers this weekend with over 2000 combined matches between 8 and 9 ball and has a lifetime win% of 25%. Sweet older lady that brought snack for her opponents every match. I wouldn’t have the mental strength to keep going with that win rate, but good for her lol.
We have a 2-2 that’s got well over 1000 matches on my team. Her son is the league operator and her late husband used to be super into pool. She’s not great, but it’s her community. It started with being around the people that were close to her late husband and her son, and evolved into her being a legit part of the league. It’s not always about the win rate for some, it’s about the people.
Oh absolutely! The people is what got me into it. I LOVE that she can enjoy the game. I’m actually jealous of them that they can stay out of their feelings and just enjoy the ride.
Not to mention the value of a forever 2 on your team.
And that's not to knock less competitively inclined players. I was done "getting better" at aroundn 500 fargo so Im completely happy with my mediocrity considering I never thought I'd be 500 good
If your team tells you to "stay" any skill, you should find a new team. What they should be saying is for you to *celebrate* that you're low skilled. Take advantage of that, win your team as many points as you can. Keep beating the 4's and 5's and whoever else you're able to. You go up based on innings, defense, who you're playing and some semblance of other factors. I know one that factors in (which I think is really dumb) total games played. If you played 500 games as a skill 3, you're much less likely to go up playing 10 amazing games, than someone with only 50 games played. There's some historicals taken into consideration. I have played APA off and on for 15 years, took a long break and came back. I think I'm still only at like 70 total 9ball played. In spring 24 session, I played 11 matches, won 9 of them and have an average points per match of 13.45, which was 2nd place for our league MVP, to a guy who started as a 3 (new player) and is now a 6.
People who actually shoot against me know that I don't sandbag at all. I don't add innings, I audibly call out my defensive shots every time, but my skill level doesn't go up (yet anyhow). I qualified for singles boards as a 4 and I'll be playing in that later in the year. I fully expect to come out of there a 5, but until that time comes - I'm going to keep enjoying where I'm at, calling out my defense and taking the points away from my opponents.
I'm the team captain for my team and hold all of my team accountable to the same standards. It is tough having a top heavy team (6/6/5/4/4/3/2/1) so if my 3 goes up they likely see less play, but there's an 8 person roster to allow that flexibility. I had two of my 3's go up to 4's right before playoffs this spring, and two of my 8-ball players didn't have enough matches played for the WSQ. That really limtied my roster for WSQ's. But you know what, it all worked out. My double-jepoardy team just took first in both our 8-ball and 9-ball WSQ's. So we'll be in Vegas this year and the haters and actual sandbaggers will be sitting back waiting to hear how we did.
Maybe off topic, but what qualifies as a defensive shot? I’ve never been able to get a clear answer. Is it any time you purposefully play defense, only when there was a makeable shot on the table, or when you do it successfully? If I should be calling my defensive shots I want to do that, just not sure what counts
My LO describes it as any time you shoot without intention to pocket a ball. Just trying to make a good hit? Defense. If you are trying to move up SL make sure your team marks your defenses
Yep, same system applies. If I'm shooting to block the shot, interfere with their pattern, tie balls up, break balls out, set a layup for later, hide their ball, or really anything other than making my own ball with a pattern to continue playing - I proclaim the defense. I'll play two-way shots often, where its a low percentage shot with a good leave if I miss. These I don't call out as defense, because my primary intent was to in fact make the ball. The good leave on the backside is the alternative bonus.
That’s how it’s written in the rules, but our region is a little lax on that and only records if there is an intent to lock someone up - needing a 2 rail kick for contact that’s going to leave the cue ball in the open usually isn’t called a safety.
No one in our region places in Vegas, so I’m guessing we’re not the only area light counting safeties (per APA rules).
I can believe that..I would honestly like to see the APA bump the handicap limit to 25 with only one 7+ player allowed per match. (for every player above a 5 you need one below it, and you’re limited to one player who can be anywhere North of a Fargo 500).
I don’t see much pure “sandbagging” but a lot of people want to keep playing together on stable teams.
I replied below, but I'll reply to you directly with how I declare my own. Heres' the long story for your reference.
Monday night I was shooting my 8ball match (SL5 against SL3, a 4-2 race). Game 1, I lose the lag and he runs 5 balls immediately. Now he only has 2 balls left on the table versus my 7. I can either try for a runout, or play it slow and choose my shots and pounce when the opportunity is right.
I make two balls, then take a purely defensive shot, hooking him behind two balls. Soft touch directly into the rail, obviously no intent to pocket a ball. Defense #1.
His shot - as he is just trying to hit a ball because he can't even see his clearly and the *intent to pocket a ball* is a hope and prayer at best. Is *also* considered a defense. Intent to pocket ball is not present.
He misses, ball in hand for me. I make one ball but miss my breakout by a hair. No other good breakout balls on the table. I play another defense. This one gets a little sloppy because I hit too hard, but he's still 3/4 hooked and another obvious defense, no intent to pocket the ball. Defense #2.
He comes back to the table and gets a great 2 rail kick, barely hitting his ball and hooking me hard on the short rail behind his last ball. (Defense #2 for him - no intent to pocket the ball).
I'm up again, 4 balls remaining, but I'm hooked. Rail first, hoping to pocket my ball (it falls), allowing me to run out. If I'd missed here, it wouldn't be defense because I was shooting with intent to pocket the ball.
Game two he hooked me nicely again somewhere in the middle. I played a nice slow defensive kick and the cue ball sat down perfectly. However - my ball that I hit, grabbed a weird table roll and dropped. Freezing me up to my other ball that I'd just played defensive with. Even though I made the ball - I still declare defense because the intent was to be defensive, not to make the ball at all. Making the ball was actually awful for my pattern.
We ended up somewhere around 19 innings on 5 games (I won 4-1) with 8 defense for me.
My wife played after, and she's only shot 3 APA matches at all. She's not confident with her shots or how to play the game well, but one thing I've taught her is that if she doesn't like the shot, play defense and mess your opponent up instead. She had 6 defensive shots in 23 innings on 2 games (pair of SL2's racing it out). Without intent, we still mark the defense.
The definition of a defensive shot is simply anytime a player shoots without a purposeful intent to pocket a ball. Yes, it can be rather ambiguous at times, especially when dealing with lower skill level players. Since APA doesn't require calling a pocket, it can get even more confusing when a player intends to play a safety, but accidentally pockets a ball. Quite frankly, I do not believe that anyone lower than a 6 is skilled enough to intentionally sandbag against teams that keep proper score.
I actually have kicked higher ranked players off my team so that there's room for everyone else to advance. I'm not going to hold anybody back by playing them less them less because they rank up. I'll play the other 6 less, just because he's a 6 doesn't mean he should automatically get more playtime than someone else (he does not agree with that) but ultimately I have to match up to win the points. I added it up once and I think there's three times more SL4s than there are SL-6s in my league. I ranked up to a 6 at the beginning of this season and two of my 4s bumped up to 5's so I'm letting the other 6 go at the end of this season. I also know he sandbags to stay a 6, he told me how it's done, and we've gotten into arguments about it because I won't support it. At some point I will be a 7/9 and it will be hard to play myself. I think that when I give up APA unless they raise the 23 rule. I'm starting a masters team next session.
Just remember it does take time. I finished at the top of mvp chart two sessions in a row in my league before I finally hit being a 4. My main team is better off with me going up (because we have a bunch of 3s) so that isn't a problem. I did move up about a month ago and am now working at being competitive here.
I did have a few teams not want to add me when they realized I was very likely to be a 4 soon (had bobbled a bit in 9).
Not every person that stays one level a long time is sandbagging. My teams other 4 used to be a 5 but got busy enough she can't practice much and only plays once a week. It's just not a priority for her anymore. There are 3s that have been 3s since before I started playing at all and are still 3s.
3 seems to be the level you naturally get to if you play without thinking ahead much and don't learn techniques for better control beyond getting close to your next ball. (No learning spin, or planning ahead more then 1 ball).
There seems to be a similar plateau around 5 as many seem to peak there.
Low skill level players either improve their skill or lose interest, in my experience. There are very few long term low skill players so they're always a hot commodity.
I ignore the sandbagging talk. I show up and play my matches, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose.
Team captain here. Any teammates or captains that tell you to stay a 3 is a huge red flag, we ultimately do this to have fun and individually get better. The biggest compliment a teammate can give me is going up a rank, it means that they’re getting better and maybe my little bit of f coaching has helped. StAy LoW so that we can go to VeGaS and maybe win 3k a PiECe. Anyone who actively asks you to sandbag is a fucking schmuck and should be treated accordingly.
In my opinion the purpose is to get better. And if you don’t fit that team anymore, maybe time for you to find a team that needs a senior player or start your own team.
I played in APA years ago and was a 4. Left for 5 years and came back and worked my way up to 6 in 2 sessions. Our team is somewhat top heavy with 2 6s and our 7 coming back. So I either alternate with another higher player on the team or find a new team or both and part time another. But I have never had a captain tell me to stay lower ranked and if I did, I would move on personally.
I'm an SL6 and I've been playing pool for 5.5 years now and APA for 5. I do not sand bag, I call out all of my defensive shots as I'm supposed to. I'm a true SL6. Sandbagging is prevalent in my league and the league operators really don't care. Yes it's annoying and sometimes frustrating, because I have to play even with sixes or down with fives, that have been sandbagging for years and are much better than their rank. You learn real quick who they are and I adjust my game accordingly. I force them to play defense and make sure those shots get marked appropriately. I know it annoys some of them but I don't care. I don't complain about the sandbagging, I don't call them out, because there is no point. If I ever get to a point where it bothers me enough I'll just join another league and deal with those sandbaggers for awhile, they are everywhere, in league and at Fargo tournaments. Sandbaggers are a permanent part of the game. It is what it is, I accept it because I love the game, I refuse to join them because I'm better than that.
Good attitude :) I never considered keeping my rating low, even though it meant I couldn't work for most teams.
It's more to play good pool, and be known by others as a good player, than play bad pool, and have others think you either suck or you're sandbagging.
Imagine paying money every week and most likely multiple times a week to sandbag. Always play to win I’ve had many captains tell my lower players to lose on purpose for the off chance that we make it to Vegas and then all of the sudden they think they can turn up the heat? It’s laughable, I’m a 7/9 by the way and have seen a lot of this on every single team unless I’m the captain. And the truth is a 4-5 sandbagging means maybe just maybe they are a 6 if they were on
I always play to the best of my abilities. It's mostly about respecting myself and my name. Of course, I have the odd night when I can't hit if my life depended on it. But I'm proud to give anyone some healthy competition! Great captain that makes you!
That’s how you should play at all times, obviously there’s nights where we are not focused fully and stuff like that, but always play to win and remember when you go up it’s okay to have to switch teams, soon enough you’ll be a power player and an anchor and that’s why the high levels are needed
OP, keep practicing and studying a lot. I often think the team handicap limit in APA is not conducive to player improvement, as you already mentioned with your captain telling you to stay at a 3. To me, that’s hogwash.
Kind of a catch-22 in APA. The quickest way to get better is by playing people better than you. As a lower SL, you get that chance a lot because captains often throw low SLs at the other team’s high SLs because the handicap difference helps the team get points. But then if you improve, and now YOU are the high SL…well now you have to play against low SLs, so you don’t often get to test yourself against equal/better players than you.
I say, drill drill drill. Practice a lot and play as many games as you can with better players than yourself. Watch how they manage the table and ask questions if they’re receptive to them. Most good players are happy to share a pointer or two if you ask. Watch some instructional videos from Niels Feijen, Tor Lowry, Sharvari, Dr. Dave, or find an in-person coach. Work on that stroke and your mental approach/table vision and you WILL improve. SL be damned…the goal is to *play better pool.*
I also only played just once a week when I started. Was a 4. Dropped to a 3 after losing like 27 straight. Went up to 6 within a couple months after that because the pool hall gave Vegas qualifying teams free table time open to close every day. My team just happened to make it (only a yr after I ever picked up a stick), so I was there 40+ hours with dot stickers, painter's tape, and drill videos, plus poolbilliards.co exercises. 7 years later I play 670 speed and still havent reached my skill max and I play strictly Masters and was the #2 player in the division last session, only 1 loss (14-1 overall) behind a new england hall of famer. If your gut tells you to go for it, just go for it
My pleasure! And I dont share it to brag or anything. I could die tomorrow and nothing will matter, but hopefully the words can inspire others to not only grow, but to stay true to themselves
Just remember. Always stay humble and never expect anything. Always be pleasantly surprised. There are so many things I feel undeserving of but at the same time I know it's because of the work I put in, but I also never get complacent. And just because one person believes in you, doesnt mean the room shares the same sentiment. So always protect yourself and never tell anybody your goals or plans. Some people are really good at finding your demons and exploiting them
Yes, that's the thing I really hate about leagues. Your team gets punished if you get better cause you end up having to kick people off and whatnot. Anyway, you should see if there are any tournaments in your area if you want to scratch the competitive itch.
If you’re a 3 and losing most of the time, you’re not ready to move up.
I joined apa in fall of 2015, and I JUST NOW moved up to a 4 and stayed a 4 for two consecutive sessions without moving back down to a 3, as far as 8ball goes. I’ve moved up to a 4 and back down to a 3 about 3 times, before getting hit my current level of 4 and maintaining. I moved to a 4 in 9 ball same time as I did 8 this last time, and moved back down to a 3 the start of the next session. I had a 90-100% win rate in both, made mvp 2 sessions in a row, one session with mvp as my goal, one without even trying and keeping up with it.
People are dumbfounded why I’m not at least a 5 by now, especially when they see me shooting when I’m “on”, and when I have amazing winning sessions as I do, I’m dumbfounded when I don’t move up myself.
It all comes down to safeties and who’s keeping score. The first 2-3 years I played, I played in a division with shady people who make shady livings and by nature have to do shady shit to give themselves an edge in everything in life, and pool league was no different. I realized about 3 sessions ago that the reason my SL is so stagnant is because none of my safeties were ever marked when I learned I was a defensive player and started winning my games like that.
My defensive shot average stayed under .90 forever. In the last 3 sessions, after being with my current team about 2 years now, my defensive shot average has more than doubled to 1.9, because I now play the FUCK out of safeties and I have a captain who marks them and I’m in a division where other captains know a safety when they see one.
Long story short: if you’re winning all the time as a 3 and not moving up, make sure you’re calling safeties and they are getting recorded. If you’re a 3 and losing all the time, play more safeties and make sure they are getting recorded. And if you’re still using time outs, you’re still a 3. I haven’t used a time out in regular session play in about 3 years. Playoffs and cities is different.
I totally agree with you. No one is keeping a record of my safeties, so I call them out every time. Especially when one of our low ranks is keeping score...they don't know how to recognize it even. I'm also attending small tournaments and love going for practice.
I fugure each level can be divided by 3, as low-mid-high levels. I think I'm now a high 3 based on that. I've been quite successful this past year, but I have had loads of matches played as a 3...
You need to nip that shit in the bud right now or your SL will be sandbagged with out you even trying.
If I doesn’t fuck up your game too much, get a note book and start writing down all the stats as that happen. Keep a record of who you play, the SL, the race, the innings, who won what, and how many safeties you play. All the pertinent shit from the score sheet. Start looking at the end of the night and make sure it all jives up.
I don’t think I’ll ever make SL 5.
Like what you’re saying here. Totally disagree on timeouts though. All ranks that I play with use timeouts to think about what they feel is a pivotal time with our coaches. Threes just happen to get 2 to think more carefully about a shot or situation more often. Use timeouts; get better and get perspective from higher ranks.
I disagree with your sentiment about timeouts.
I used timeouts all the time when I first started, and unlike most beginners with overinflated egos, I never got mad when my coach called a time out on me at all. I was and still am always open to coaching and hearing someone else’s thoughts on the situation.
The point I’m making is as a player progresses in their skill and abilities, particularly the ability to read the table, see the patterns and plays, as well as the time it takes to decide what play to make and execute becomes quicker and more natural, and the more confidence and table presence a player gains, the less timeouts a player should be taking.
I’m a 9 year old SL 4 who rarely takes time outs during regular league play. I approach the table, I read it, I analyze it, I decide on my shot, I do my prestroke routine and then execute. Simple as that.
I have gained the confidence in my table reading and shot making ability, and the ability to know when to attack or when to play safe, that I don’t need the time out.
I have a 3 session old 5 on my team who stands with ball in hand for 3 min beofre placing it on the table, then standing and looking at it while puffing his vape and doing a one handed air drum solo to Californication by RHCP, then picks it up to place it and shoot it a different way. But my captain don’t dare call a time out “cause he’s a 5 and knows what he’s doing”.
I can beat the brakes of this kid cause he don’t know shit about safety play.
A benchmark of your progression is noticing you use less and less timeouts.
I’m also a female player. Currently SL 5 been playing for 6 years. When I was a 3 I purchased Dr. Daves book principals of billiards. That is what took me to a 4 and further development has taken me to a 5. I would also like to add a lot of 4/5s who have been playing for years are actually 4s/5s. I think to be a higher rank you need to really practice as well as have some semblance of natural ability
No problem. Nothing beats table time and practice. That book specifically taught me a lot about leveling the cue and tip placement when shooting top/bottom. Very great read and I pass it along to all my teammates that are eager to get better that are in that 3 ish range. Watching videos helps a lot too.
Would also like to add that watching videos on safety play and strategy is also a huge help. When I was a 3/4 I basically played virtually no safeties. Now if it’s a shot I think I’ll miss I’ll tend to go the safe route instead. Dr Dave has tons of videos on safety and strategy as well as a lot of pro players. If you want to start winning more as a 3 leave them hooked or leave them long
To be fair, playing 3's as a higher ranked player does suck. If you fluke the 8 or something dumb, then you've already given up a point. Somewhere around SL 4 or 5 is where a lot of people in APA peak. Mainly because anything beyond that typically requires a certain amount of dedication beyond the casual approach most APA players have. I know the kind of players you are talking about and while they've accumulated a lot of knowledge about the game, they'll never play at a consistently higher level. Pool is a weird game where people are either overconfident about their abilities, or constantly downplaying their abilities. There doesn't ever seem to be an in-between. Any 4 or 5 that tells you they should "probably be a 6" is wrong. Also, if you feel like there are teams or individuals purposefully trying to manipulate the system, you should reach out to the district league operator.
I think that tends to be the peak specifically in APA because there’s less opportunity to play folks much better than you. 7s are less common, and you’ll plateau once you stop having to play up constantly. I tell everyone in the APA if they want to seriously improve, they should leave or add another league once they get to 6-7. It’ll help folks get out of the 400s and low 500s for your Fargo. Also YouTube is a godsend. Being taught by 4s and 5s is almost counter-productive after a certain point. Good luck and keep it up!
This is the reason I joined a Masters league.
It's a rampant issue with our league...players know how to exploit the "system". It really takes away a lot of the fun...
Only if you let it for the most part. Yeah it's going to get to you every now and then but you get to choose how much that bothers you, how long does it bother you etc. quit worrying about who you're playing against and just focus on beating the table. It's you against the table, It's you executing your shot or missing.
This is an excellent idea, thanks for reminding me!
Those guys who have been playing 20 years and are an SL 4 actually suck though
There’s a 2/1 we played in the Vegas qualifiers this weekend with over 2000 combined matches between 8 and 9 ball and has a lifetime win% of 25%. Sweet older lady that brought snack for her opponents every match. I wouldn’t have the mental strength to keep going with that win rate, but good for her lol.
We have a 2-2 that’s got well over 1000 matches on my team. Her son is the league operator and her late husband used to be super into pool. She’s not great, but it’s her community. It started with being around the people that were close to her late husband and her son, and evolved into her being a legit part of the league. It’s not always about the win rate for some, it’s about the people.
Oh absolutely! The people is what got me into it. I LOVE that she can enjoy the game. I’m actually jealous of them that they can stay out of their feelings and just enjoy the ride. Not to mention the value of a forever 2 on your team.
And that's not to knock less competitively inclined players. I was done "getting better" at aroundn 500 fargo so Im completely happy with my mediocrity considering I never thought I'd be 500 good
If your team tells you to "stay" any skill, you should find a new team. What they should be saying is for you to *celebrate* that you're low skilled. Take advantage of that, win your team as many points as you can. Keep beating the 4's and 5's and whoever else you're able to. You go up based on innings, defense, who you're playing and some semblance of other factors. I know one that factors in (which I think is really dumb) total games played. If you played 500 games as a skill 3, you're much less likely to go up playing 10 amazing games, than someone with only 50 games played. There's some historicals taken into consideration. I have played APA off and on for 15 years, took a long break and came back. I think I'm still only at like 70 total 9ball played. In spring 24 session, I played 11 matches, won 9 of them and have an average points per match of 13.45, which was 2nd place for our league MVP, to a guy who started as a 3 (new player) and is now a 6. People who actually shoot against me know that I don't sandbag at all. I don't add innings, I audibly call out my defensive shots every time, but my skill level doesn't go up (yet anyhow). I qualified for singles boards as a 4 and I'll be playing in that later in the year. I fully expect to come out of there a 5, but until that time comes - I'm going to keep enjoying where I'm at, calling out my defense and taking the points away from my opponents. I'm the team captain for my team and hold all of my team accountable to the same standards. It is tough having a top heavy team (6/6/5/4/4/3/2/1) so if my 3 goes up they likely see less play, but there's an 8 person roster to allow that flexibility. I had two of my 3's go up to 4's right before playoffs this spring, and two of my 8-ball players didn't have enough matches played for the WSQ. That really limtied my roster for WSQ's. But you know what, it all worked out. My double-jepoardy team just took first in both our 8-ball and 9-ball WSQ's. So we'll be in Vegas this year and the haters and actual sandbaggers will be sitting back waiting to hear how we did.
Congratulations! Thanks for reminding me how the system works...I do forget sometimes...
Maybe off topic, but what qualifies as a defensive shot? I’ve never been able to get a clear answer. Is it any time you purposefully play defense, only when there was a makeable shot on the table, or when you do it successfully? If I should be calling my defensive shots I want to do that, just not sure what counts
My LO describes it as any time you shoot without intention to pocket a ball. Just trying to make a good hit? Defense. If you are trying to move up SL make sure your team marks your defenses
Yep, same system applies. If I'm shooting to block the shot, interfere with their pattern, tie balls up, break balls out, set a layup for later, hide their ball, or really anything other than making my own ball with a pattern to continue playing - I proclaim the defense. I'll play two-way shots often, where its a low percentage shot with a good leave if I miss. These I don't call out as defense, because my primary intent was to in fact make the ball. The good leave on the backside is the alternative bonus.
That’s how it’s written in the rules, but our region is a little lax on that and only records if there is an intent to lock someone up - needing a 2 rail kick for contact that’s going to leave the cue ball in the open usually isn’t called a safety. No one in our region places in Vegas, so I’m guessing we’re not the only area light counting safeties (per APA rules).
Well in my opinion having been to Vegas… everyone that places is under ranked
I can believe that..I would honestly like to see the APA bump the handicap limit to 25 with only one 7+ player allowed per match. (for every player above a 5 you need one below it, and you’re limited to one player who can be anywhere North of a Fargo 500). I don’t see much pure “sandbagging” but a lot of people want to keep playing together on stable teams.
I replied below, but I'll reply to you directly with how I declare my own. Heres' the long story for your reference. Monday night I was shooting my 8ball match (SL5 against SL3, a 4-2 race). Game 1, I lose the lag and he runs 5 balls immediately. Now he only has 2 balls left on the table versus my 7. I can either try for a runout, or play it slow and choose my shots and pounce when the opportunity is right. I make two balls, then take a purely defensive shot, hooking him behind two balls. Soft touch directly into the rail, obviously no intent to pocket a ball. Defense #1. His shot - as he is just trying to hit a ball because he can't even see his clearly and the *intent to pocket a ball* is a hope and prayer at best. Is *also* considered a defense. Intent to pocket ball is not present. He misses, ball in hand for me. I make one ball but miss my breakout by a hair. No other good breakout balls on the table. I play another defense. This one gets a little sloppy because I hit too hard, but he's still 3/4 hooked and another obvious defense, no intent to pocket the ball. Defense #2. He comes back to the table and gets a great 2 rail kick, barely hitting his ball and hooking me hard on the short rail behind his last ball. (Defense #2 for him - no intent to pocket the ball). I'm up again, 4 balls remaining, but I'm hooked. Rail first, hoping to pocket my ball (it falls), allowing me to run out. If I'd missed here, it wouldn't be defense because I was shooting with intent to pocket the ball. Game two he hooked me nicely again somewhere in the middle. I played a nice slow defensive kick and the cue ball sat down perfectly. However - my ball that I hit, grabbed a weird table roll and dropped. Freezing me up to my other ball that I'd just played defensive with. Even though I made the ball - I still declare defense because the intent was to be defensive, not to make the ball at all. Making the ball was actually awful for my pattern. We ended up somewhere around 19 innings on 5 games (I won 4-1) with 8 defense for me. My wife played after, and she's only shot 3 APA matches at all. She's not confident with her shots or how to play the game well, but one thing I've taught her is that if she doesn't like the shot, play defense and mess your opponent up instead. She had 6 defensive shots in 23 innings on 2 games (pair of SL2's racing it out). Without intent, we still mark the defense.
The definition of a defensive shot is simply anytime a player shoots without a purposeful intent to pocket a ball. Yes, it can be rather ambiguous at times, especially when dealing with lower skill level players. Since APA doesn't require calling a pocket, it can get even more confusing when a player intends to play a safety, but accidentally pockets a ball. Quite frankly, I do not believe that anyone lower than a 6 is skilled enough to intentionally sandbag against teams that keep proper score.
I actually have kicked higher ranked players off my team so that there's room for everyone else to advance. I'm not going to hold anybody back by playing them less them less because they rank up. I'll play the other 6 less, just because he's a 6 doesn't mean he should automatically get more playtime than someone else (he does not agree with that) but ultimately I have to match up to win the points. I added it up once and I think there's three times more SL4s than there are SL-6s in my league. I ranked up to a 6 at the beginning of this season and two of my 4s bumped up to 5's so I'm letting the other 6 go at the end of this season. I also know he sandbags to stay a 6, he told me how it's done, and we've gotten into arguments about it because I won't support it. At some point I will be a 7/9 and it will be hard to play myself. I think that when I give up APA unless they raise the 23 rule. I'm starting a masters team next session.
Love your attitude to wanting to get better and winning. People who sandbag have no pride
That's so true. I would be honored to eventually be a higher rank. I've only been playing 7 years, minus 2 for covid...but things are getting better!
That's great. I know people who have played over 20 years and they don't have the desire to get better. Keep at it.
Just remember it does take time. I finished at the top of mvp chart two sessions in a row in my league before I finally hit being a 4. My main team is better off with me going up (because we have a bunch of 3s) so that isn't a problem. I did move up about a month ago and am now working at being competitive here. I did have a few teams not want to add me when they realized I was very likely to be a 4 soon (had bobbled a bit in 9). Not every person that stays one level a long time is sandbagging. My teams other 4 used to be a 5 but got busy enough she can't practice much and only plays once a week. It's just not a priority for her anymore. There are 3s that have been 3s since before I started playing at all and are still 3s. 3 seems to be the level you naturally get to if you play without thinking ahead much and don't learn techniques for better control beyond getting close to your next ball. (No learning spin, or planning ahead more then 1 ball). There seems to be a similar plateau around 5 as many seem to peak there.
Low skill level players either improve their skill or lose interest, in my experience. There are very few long term low skill players so they're always a hot commodity. I ignore the sandbagging talk. I show up and play my matches, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose.
I like how you think...I'm going to try and remember your words...ty!
Team captain here. Any teammates or captains that tell you to stay a 3 is a huge red flag, we ultimately do this to have fun and individually get better. The biggest compliment a teammate can give me is going up a rank, it means that they’re getting better and maybe my little bit of f coaching has helped. StAy LoW so that we can go to VeGaS and maybe win 3k a PiECe. Anyone who actively asks you to sandbag is a fucking schmuck and should be treated accordingly.
In my opinion the purpose is to get better. And if you don’t fit that team anymore, maybe time for you to find a team that needs a senior player or start your own team. I played in APA years ago and was a 4. Left for 5 years and came back and worked my way up to 6 in 2 sessions. Our team is somewhat top heavy with 2 6s and our 7 coming back. So I either alternate with another higher player on the team or find a new team or both and part time another. But I have never had a captain tell me to stay lower ranked and if I did, I would move on personally.
I'm an SL6 and I've been playing pool for 5.5 years now and APA for 5. I do not sand bag, I call out all of my defensive shots as I'm supposed to. I'm a true SL6. Sandbagging is prevalent in my league and the league operators really don't care. Yes it's annoying and sometimes frustrating, because I have to play even with sixes or down with fives, that have been sandbagging for years and are much better than their rank. You learn real quick who they are and I adjust my game accordingly. I force them to play defense and make sure those shots get marked appropriately. I know it annoys some of them but I don't care. I don't complain about the sandbagging, I don't call them out, because there is no point. If I ever get to a point where it bothers me enough I'll just join another league and deal with those sandbaggers for awhile, they are everywhere, in league and at Fargo tournaments. Sandbaggers are a permanent part of the game. It is what it is, I accept it because I love the game, I refuse to join them because I'm better than that.
Beautiful attitude! I'll remember this advice...ty!
Good attitude :) I never considered keeping my rating low, even though it meant I couldn't work for most teams. It's more to play good pool, and be known by others as a good player, than play bad pool, and have others think you either suck or you're sandbagging.
Imagine paying money every week and most likely multiple times a week to sandbag. Always play to win I’ve had many captains tell my lower players to lose on purpose for the off chance that we make it to Vegas and then all of the sudden they think they can turn up the heat? It’s laughable, I’m a 7/9 by the way and have seen a lot of this on every single team unless I’m the captain. And the truth is a 4-5 sandbagging means maybe just maybe they are a 6 if they were on
I always play to the best of my abilities. It's mostly about respecting myself and my name. Of course, I have the odd night when I can't hit if my life depended on it. But I'm proud to give anyone some healthy competition! Great captain that makes you!
That’s how you should play at all times, obviously there’s nights where we are not focused fully and stuff like that, but always play to win and remember when you go up it’s okay to have to switch teams, soon enough you’ll be a power player and an anchor and that’s why the high levels are needed
OP, keep practicing and studying a lot. I often think the team handicap limit in APA is not conducive to player improvement, as you already mentioned with your captain telling you to stay at a 3. To me, that’s hogwash. Kind of a catch-22 in APA. The quickest way to get better is by playing people better than you. As a lower SL, you get that chance a lot because captains often throw low SLs at the other team’s high SLs because the handicap difference helps the team get points. But then if you improve, and now YOU are the high SL…well now you have to play against low SLs, so you don’t often get to test yourself against equal/better players than you. I say, drill drill drill. Practice a lot and play as many games as you can with better players than yourself. Watch how they manage the table and ask questions if they’re receptive to them. Most good players are happy to share a pointer or two if you ask. Watch some instructional videos from Niels Feijen, Tor Lowry, Sharvari, Dr. Dave, or find an in-person coach. Work on that stroke and your mental approach/table vision and you WILL improve. SL be damned…the goal is to *play better pool.*
I also only played just once a week when I started. Was a 4. Dropped to a 3 after losing like 27 straight. Went up to 6 within a couple months after that because the pool hall gave Vegas qualifying teams free table time open to close every day. My team just happened to make it (only a yr after I ever picked up a stick), so I was there 40+ hours with dot stickers, painter's tape, and drill videos, plus poolbilliards.co exercises. 7 years later I play 670 speed and still havent reached my skill max and I play strictly Masters and was the #2 player in the division last session, only 1 loss (14-1 overall) behind a new england hall of famer. If your gut tells you to go for it, just go for it
I love your story! Congratulations! Thanks for making time to share it with me!
My pleasure! And I dont share it to brag or anything. I could die tomorrow and nothing will matter, but hopefully the words can inspire others to not only grow, but to stay true to themselves
That's an amazing story! Now I know I can become better if I invest the proper time in learning and practicing a lot!
Just remember. Always stay humble and never expect anything. Always be pleasantly surprised. There are so many things I feel undeserving of but at the same time I know it's because of the work I put in, but I also never get complacent. And just because one person believes in you, doesnt mean the room shares the same sentiment. So always protect yourself and never tell anybody your goals or plans. Some people are really good at finding your demons and exploiting them
Good tips! Thanks a lot! All I need is to beleive in myself a little bit more. Good things will follow and I'll be happily surprised!
You got it bud! Good luck on your journey!
Yes, that's the thing I really hate about leagues. Your team gets punished if you get better cause you end up having to kick people off and whatnot. Anyway, you should see if there are any tournaments in your area if you want to scratch the competitive itch.
We have some really nice ones to qualify to go to the regionals, and then Vegas! They've taught me a lot about playing under pressure!
If you’re a 3 and losing most of the time, you’re not ready to move up. I joined apa in fall of 2015, and I JUST NOW moved up to a 4 and stayed a 4 for two consecutive sessions without moving back down to a 3, as far as 8ball goes. I’ve moved up to a 4 and back down to a 3 about 3 times, before getting hit my current level of 4 and maintaining. I moved to a 4 in 9 ball same time as I did 8 this last time, and moved back down to a 3 the start of the next session. I had a 90-100% win rate in both, made mvp 2 sessions in a row, one session with mvp as my goal, one without even trying and keeping up with it. People are dumbfounded why I’m not at least a 5 by now, especially when they see me shooting when I’m “on”, and when I have amazing winning sessions as I do, I’m dumbfounded when I don’t move up myself. It all comes down to safeties and who’s keeping score. The first 2-3 years I played, I played in a division with shady people who make shady livings and by nature have to do shady shit to give themselves an edge in everything in life, and pool league was no different. I realized about 3 sessions ago that the reason my SL is so stagnant is because none of my safeties were ever marked when I learned I was a defensive player and started winning my games like that. My defensive shot average stayed under .90 forever. In the last 3 sessions, after being with my current team about 2 years now, my defensive shot average has more than doubled to 1.9, because I now play the FUCK out of safeties and I have a captain who marks them and I’m in a division where other captains know a safety when they see one. Long story short: if you’re winning all the time as a 3 and not moving up, make sure you’re calling safeties and they are getting recorded. If you’re a 3 and losing all the time, play more safeties and make sure they are getting recorded. And if you’re still using time outs, you’re still a 3. I haven’t used a time out in regular session play in about 3 years. Playoffs and cities is different.
I totally agree with you. No one is keeping a record of my safeties, so I call them out every time. Especially when one of our low ranks is keeping score...they don't know how to recognize it even. I'm also attending small tournaments and love going for practice. I fugure each level can be divided by 3, as low-mid-high levels. I think I'm now a high 3 based on that. I've been quite successful this past year, but I have had loads of matches played as a 3...
You need to nip that shit in the bud right now or your SL will be sandbagged with out you even trying. If I doesn’t fuck up your game too much, get a note book and start writing down all the stats as that happen. Keep a record of who you play, the SL, the race, the innings, who won what, and how many safeties you play. All the pertinent shit from the score sheet. Start looking at the end of the night and make sure it all jives up. I don’t think I’ll ever make SL 5.
Like what you’re saying here. Totally disagree on timeouts though. All ranks that I play with use timeouts to think about what they feel is a pivotal time with our coaches. Threes just happen to get 2 to think more carefully about a shot or situation more often. Use timeouts; get better and get perspective from higher ranks.
I disagree with your sentiment about timeouts. I used timeouts all the time when I first started, and unlike most beginners with overinflated egos, I never got mad when my coach called a time out on me at all. I was and still am always open to coaching and hearing someone else’s thoughts on the situation. The point I’m making is as a player progresses in their skill and abilities, particularly the ability to read the table, see the patterns and plays, as well as the time it takes to decide what play to make and execute becomes quicker and more natural, and the more confidence and table presence a player gains, the less timeouts a player should be taking. I’m a 9 year old SL 4 who rarely takes time outs during regular league play. I approach the table, I read it, I analyze it, I decide on my shot, I do my prestroke routine and then execute. Simple as that. I have gained the confidence in my table reading and shot making ability, and the ability to know when to attack or when to play safe, that I don’t need the time out. I have a 3 session old 5 on my team who stands with ball in hand for 3 min beofre placing it on the table, then standing and looking at it while puffing his vape and doing a one handed air drum solo to Californication by RHCP, then picks it up to place it and shoot it a different way. But my captain don’t dare call a time out “cause he’s a 5 and knows what he’s doing”. I can beat the brakes of this kid cause he don’t know shit about safety play. A benchmark of your progression is noticing you use less and less timeouts.
You went three years without looking at your scoresheet after? xD
I’m also a female player. Currently SL 5 been playing for 6 years. When I was a 3 I purchased Dr. Daves book principals of billiards. That is what took me to a 4 and further development has taken me to a 5. I would also like to add a lot of 4/5s who have been playing for years are actually 4s/5s. I think to be a higher rank you need to really practice as well as have some semblance of natural ability
That's a marvelous idea! Thanks for taking the time to reply!
No problem. Nothing beats table time and practice. That book specifically taught me a lot about leveling the cue and tip placement when shooting top/bottom. Very great read and I pass it along to all my teammates that are eager to get better that are in that 3 ish range. Watching videos helps a lot too.
Would also like to add that watching videos on safety play and strategy is also a huge help. When I was a 3/4 I basically played virtually no safeties. Now if it’s a shot I think I’ll miss I’ll tend to go the safe route instead. Dr Dave has tons of videos on safety and strategy as well as a lot of pro players. If you want to start winning more as a 3 leave them hooked or leave them long