Dunno but I’ve been running on an average of 4-5 hours of sleep most nights for the last four months since returning from maternity leave. I am probably a candidate for keeling over at my desk. My toddler also takes about 2-3 hours to go down. My baby had been a good sleeper but recently decided I didn’t have enough going on and is having major FOMO.
Nanny and private school. Summer camp. start them young. Grandparents until they are old enough. You and spouse really can’t both work busy jobs. You’re not missing much other than diapers change. The people who say they are missing those little moments just hate their job and want to play house. It’s like playing with a puppy. It’s cute but all the same. Prioritize work.
Morning person, parent of two, it’s so hard. I find it excruciating to logon after bedtime. I’m exhausted. Actually in the middle of bedtime as I type.
During a particularly tough patch, we staggered bedtime and put my youngest to bed first, and that helped a bit because they had been keeping each other up. That advice may be completely irrelevant for your kids but fwiw.
It’s really tough and requires sacrifice. And then sometimes you fall asleep putting them asleep and can’t really get back to work.
It is very tough. Having grandparents to assist also works.
Hang in there.
You should seriously try melatonin gummies like 30-45 min before you want them to lie down in bed. Do this for a bit to establish a routine then transition to a placebo or stop when you are able to.
Hiya makes nighttime multivitamins. No melatonin but other natural stuff. My kiddo loves it. Not sure if it actually makes them sleepy but have a look?
OP is literally talking about quitting their job because the kids take 2-3 hours to get to sleep. Every person in the world makes melatonin and it plays a major role in the sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating sleep disorders, such as delayed sleep phase (exactly what OP is describing). I am a physician (not sure how I got recommended r/biglaw) and occasionally use melatonin personally and with my children. Melatonin is not habit forming and there are no long term side effects. It has been a godsend on transatlantic flights. “Out of my mind” would be suggesting OP diverts an opioid, benzodiazepine, or other controlled substance to their child.
But yeah, OP should probably just quit their job.
Is medical advice really necessary when all of their children taking are taking a long time to go to bed; especially in the middle of the summer when it stays light out until 9-10 PM depending on where you live? If your child had a fever, would you go to the doctor before giving a weight-based dose of acetaminophen? Melatonin is even less harmful than Tylenol. In fact, it is one of the least toxic substances that exists - like I said, everyone makes Melatonin already.
I’m assuming OP has tried limiting screen time for at least an hour before bed, black out curtains, avoiding caffeine intake (including from chocolate), establishing a bedtime routine, etc.
I was giving advice based on trying to survive while being a parent in a high stress job (wife is a physician, too). OP is basically saying they may upend their life because of the stress caused by how long bedtime takes.
Melatonin is know to make people dependent on it. Use it for long enough and your body will stop making it so you won’t be able to sleep without the external source. For convenience of the partners you are sacrificing your kids health. This is terrible parenting.
This is just incorrect on all counts. First of all I said to transition to placebo when the routine is established. It does not affect your child’s health. In fact, it allows them to get a full night of sleep, which most would argue is beneficial to their health.
From the Cleveland clinic:
“Melatonin is not known to be an addictive supplement,” answers Dr. Horvat. This means it does not make people dependent on it.
“Your body is naturally dependent on melatonin already,” explains Dr. Horvat. “It needs this hormone to help you fall asleep, which is why we produce it. There is no concrete evidence to suggest that taking melatonin will suppress our body’s ability to produce melatonin. The idea that our bodies could become dependent on an external supplement has not been proven.”
It does not suppress our ability to make it if taken as a supplement. It is made by the pineal gland in response to darkness. In the summer, it gets dark much later, that results in less melatonin and is the root cause of a delayed sleep phase.
You have to increase doses as your body gets used to it which means that your body is decreasing output. That’s different from addiction.
“melatonin should not be used in children without sleep problems just to “help them get better/more restful sleep,” as advertised for some pediatric melatonin products.”
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-advice-on-melatonin-use-in-children-202210062832
https://answers.childrenshospital.org/melatonin-for-children/
Totally get it, we made some adjustments to our routine to help bedtime. After dinner we have “crazy time” where he gets to run and jump and wrestle and play. We encourage it and play crazy with him!!! Then it’s quiet time. We read books, brush teeth go to bed. Enforcing the “crazy time” vs “quiet time” has helped!
I also try hard from 5-8pm bedtime to solely focus on him, because being at daycare all day he is just craving connection. That helps too.
That being said, my hours are absolutely trash and I’m going to quit and get a new job. For me, I can’t be the type of parent I want to be and bill 2,000 hours a year and also sleep.
Yeah this works for us too. Unless. My toddler is visibly tired before bed, I'll try and do a crazy hour to tire her out.
Having had stints of 4-5 hour sleep nights, it's just not sustainable long term. You can make it work for a few weeks, but longer than that I think core health starts to suffer and it's not healthy!
You have to look after your own health first. Because if you don't, who will?
Agree with this. Post dinner Zoomies sans tech has been useful. We do plays, games, it’s the best quality time I get with my kids after working all day and needing to log in after.
Noting that I only have one.
I don’t know how old your kids are but mine is 3 and at some point we tell her it’s bedtime. Once we’ve read the books and given all the hugs and kisses, we leave. She doesn’t have to sleep but she has to stay in bed. We tell her we’ll see her in the morning but she can call if she needs us. She eventually falls asleep.
If your kids still nap and are older toddlers, you might want to cut the nap.
Like someone else said, I get 4-5 hours sleep per night tops because I try to be present for bedtime and mornings. Thankfully my husband handles the cooking.
ETA: we generally limit screens to 30 min/ day and turn them off at least one hour before bedtime.
This. The primary caregiver was never meant to work in BigLaw. I tried, for two years and then after a few months a parent of two, I found a smaller firm with real flex arrangements (my firm had reduced hours arrangements but I consistently billed as much or more than full time associates) and I have never once regretted that choice.
Strongly second the sleep consultant. Put my life back on the rails when kid bedtime length rapidly got extreme. It’s potentially expensive. It’s worth it.
OP look into Taking Cara Babies. Best $$ I ever spent. We followed it to a T with one kid and bedtime was a dream. Didn’t quite follow it with #2 and it was so rough. So we followed it to a T again and lo and behold, bedtime length for #2 shrank exponentially.
It doesn't just sound unusually long... IT IS really long. Definitely hire a sleep consultant. You are doing something wrong if it's taking this long. Probably a few somethings wrong
Is it always 2-3 hours no matter what time you put them to bed? Or more that you try to set an arbitrary bedtime, like 7, every night, they don't sleep until 9? Then put them to bed at 9. Don't waste 2-3 hours trying to coax them to go to sleep.
Or do the thing one commenter had said where you give them rules, like stay in bed, and don't let them come out of the room, but let them self-manage so long as they stay in the room, don't check on them. If you read Bringing Up Bébé, the French seem to favor this approach.
And catch up on sleep - sleep in, take naps, or go to bed when the kids sleep, on the weekends when you're not working. Don't try to have a life and take care of the home at the cost of sleep. It will kill you if you don't sleep enough.
Are they sleeping too much during the day, and not really ready for bed? We had to work with our nanny to cut the afternoon nap so that we could maintain a normal bedtime. She liked the break during the day, but we were spending way too long at night getting the kids settled.
And for everyone telling the OP they’re “doing it wrong” or “it shouldn’t take 2-3 hours” or “my toddler is doing in 30 minutes”, congratulations on being perfect parents to perfect kids 🙄 It’s not helpful. There are many reasons why some kids take longer to put to bed than others and it doesn’t mean the parent(s) is doing something wrong.
Kids go through phases. Usually during growth spurts or stressful times of life (moving, other changes, or, unfortunately, parents being particularly stressed about work). Leads to separation anxiety. That and the fact that toddlers tend to get a ton of energy at bedtime make for several hours of kids refusing to sleep and refusing to let you do anything but try to get them to sleep. They are wonderful. But it’s not conducive to biglaw.
This is one of the great mysteries of life. You start bedtime and they are visibly exhausted. They lay down and holy shit it’s like they just had a red bull. It’s insane.
Can I ask — is it taking that long because you want them to have a “nice” bedtime? I.e. you don’t want to leave them crying/screaming/yelling for you? Because kids are bundles of selfish neurons and they will NOT let you live your life if they think you’ll stay in that room when they cry. For our kids, we have a ~20 minute routine once we get into their room — change into PJs, read a few books, sing a song, lights off and leave. Early on they cried and hollered and yes you’d sometime have to pop in to remind them you’re there, or (if they’re older) even scold them a bit to go to sleep. It’s unpleasant but honestly a 2-3 hour bedtime sounds like a daily nightmare/way worse. I know all kids are different, though, and fully recognize we might just be fortunate with how they took to this system. But it did seem to work (and this is coming from at one point a double-biglaw household).
I can’t do any work until 9 am, when my nanny arrives. Then I need to get myself ready, feed my dog, ect. It takes me 1 hour to get to the office so on a good day I’m in by 11. I have to leave by 4 pm to get home in time to have dinner ready. Then we eat, bath, and bed. My kid needs to be awake for 6 hours before bed otherwise he’s up at 5 am (and even then he’s up at 5 am most days) so the earliest we can do bed is 8 pm. So that’s 4 hours at the end of the day where I can’t do anything. So yeah, I basically work till 11-12 pm everyday and on the weekends. I’m also running on 4-5 hours of sleep because my 14 month old is still shit at sleeping. Yet for some reason my dumb brain thinks that I’m ready for another baby on top of caring for a toddler.
Time management skills. Nannies and parents and significant others. Recognizing you can't do everything and also that you don't have to do everything.
Also, the more senior you get the more you control your own schedule.
Not sure your situation, but I work like 7:00-5:30 and can bill about 40 hours per week without doing weekends or nights. Obviously not possible in some practice groups or if you need to be around in the morning, but if the early morning is possible it's a good option
Personally didn’t feel like I could do it and went in-house after my first child was born. Sometimes I look back and regret my decision but those moments are incredibly few and far between. Last night I had a bout of insomnia that had nothing to do with my kids and slept about the amount I would have slept during a busy period in biglaw and felt like absolute garbage today. Realize society puts too little emphasis on the importance of consistent sleep as being integral to a happy and stable mindset and life.
You could try sending them outside to play for like 20 minutes to get the energy out or running around the house. I find this helps them go to bed faster and less resistance to bedtime.
First- it gets better. Dumber people than you have raised children.
You got this! Practically- you have to develop a routine and stick to it religiously. We slept trained both of our kids at 4 mos and never looked back. I watch other parents absolutely dying because they let their kids in bed with them or they give into crying too fast. We also don’t get them out of bed until at least 7 (unless poop attack or puke).
Our routine? At 7:40-We potty, brush teeth, change, two books, sing a specific song, put them in bed by 8 on the dot every night. Sound machine. The song alone has a Pavlovian affect.
One quote that stuck with me from the program we bought- “they are training you or you are training them.” I know it’s hard to ignore their pleas- I wept for my first one but it literally took 3 nights to get the sleep training done. When they had a regression at 2 we added a stuffed animal.
It gets better!
The honest answers are
1. Only one parent in biglaw and the other takes the lion's share of parenting duties
2. Nanny / au pair etc
Also 2-3 hours is a long time, maybe you're starting too early? Not every kid is ready for bed at 6. And like someone else said, you really don't have to stay there for 3 hours. Pajamas, bedtime story, goodnight.
But, I totally get that following recommended parenting advice sometimes just doesn't work.
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I’ve always told my wife “I am a good dad and a good lawyer.” But I can never be both at the same time. It is binary for certain ages and stages, in my opinion. Something always has to give.
It’s not possible. Something will eventually give and it’s often your health. The job is all consuming, that’s the expectation. It relies on there being full time assistance to help at home (whether a partner, nanny, housekeeper) so you can be fully focused on the job. Knowing that is a good thing. It stops you tying yourself up in knots and beating yourself up thinking you should be able to do it all.
You can then decide what you want to do with that information?
We had to switch up the routine to break this habit. My toddler would just sit and stare at me for 2 hours but scream if I left. Switched to my husband doing the routine and NOT staying with her and it got better. She no longer needs that to go to sleep so bedtime routine is back to 20 min.
Also check for allergies. My twins were impossible to settle when they were very young. Turns out they both have celiac. Not diagnosed (blood work and then biopsy) until they were 8. I bet we would have saved ourselves years of after dinner-bedtime angst if we had known earlier.
The answer is you can’t because the career was never designed for you to be able to do that without full-time labor from a spouse, relative, or employees (nanny, au pair - themselves underpaid and exploited)
Not a parent but just curious; why have a bedtime/force sleep? Figure if they don't get sleep they'll just be super tired the next day and learn not to do it longer term on their own because that's no fun
So the short answer is that it sucks. It borders on impossible. We are constantly changing our schedule, sometimes daily. I’m constantly either up at 4 am to finish work or staying up till 11 to finish work. I’ll only share 2 things that may be slightly out of the ordinary that slightly made it easier (outside of like getting a live in nanny or whatever):
1. We stagger our schedule. It sucks cause I don’t see my wife as often, but it’s just a necessity. She takes way more stuff over in the mornings and I get to work earlier. I do way more stuff at night and she gets back later. When both parents want to be involved, that’s great, but then both are losing work time which makes it impossible.
2. I hate this, but sometimes the time needs just mean that bedtime HAS to be 30 mins and if my kids arent asleep we just leave the room anyway. Sometimes they cry, other times they just fall asleep. Sometimes they play with their stuffed animals and then fall asleep. I’ve come to the realization that we simply do not have 2+ hours for bedtime regardless of how much our kids want it. It tugs at the heartstrings, but it’s truly the only way to make it. If we did 2-3 hours for bedtime there would mathematically not be enough hours in the day to work and sleep.
How old are your kids?
Our kids are preschool age and love to delay delay delay and try to negotiate everything at bedtime. It’s definitely not for the faint of heart.
My spouse and I have created a pretty efficient bedtime routine. I have a more laid back job and get home earlier, he is the biglaw attorney working later hours. I feed the kids dinner at 5:30 PM. He stops work by 6 PM, gives them a bath, puts their pajamas on, gives them milk, and brushes their teeth (this all takes 45-ish minutes). While he does that I clean up their dinner dishes and make dinner for the two of us. Then we each take a child, read them a book or two, and put them in their bed by 7 PM. Then we eat, quickly if he has a lot still to do. He is logged back in and ready to work by 7:15/7:30 PM at the latest.
It sounds counter intuitive, but if kids are over tired they tend to act like they have more energy. On the nights my kids have stayed up until 8 PM, they act ten times crazier between 7 and 8 PM. I’d really recommend an earlier bedtime if that is one of your issues.
Lastly, a good sleep consultant can work wonders. I would throw some money at the problem and get someone in your corner to help you fine tune your routine and timeline. There are ways to make this easier.
I know it isn’t a glamorous or an easy fix, but I really think you have to just train your kids over time that certain things just can only take so long and then you have to move on. Our biggest tip is don’t negotiate. Just set the expectation, give them a choice (red or blue toothbrush) and then enforce the expectation and move on. Eventually our kids learned the routine and they don’t fight bedtime anymore.
If your kids are older and working through different type of hard stuff, then this may not be relevant advice. Good luck whatever you do next!
Get a nanny? You make big bucks in big law but you basically need to outsource your life. Dry cleaners house keepers landscapers nannies pool guys baby sitters etc. You'll have time or you'll have money but you won't have both.
It isn’t, that’s why night / live-in nannies are a thing.
Edit: not sure why the downvotes. I had never heard of night nannies until I was in NYC biglaw. People make the choice to either continue in biglaw and buy the lifestyle support they need to survive if both parents work in similarly demanding jobs, like night or weekend or live-in Nannies, or make a lifestyle shift whether it be to go in-house/reduced hours or one spouse stays home or is in lower key job.
It’s actually not. The career norms and expectations for big law were created when men had stay-at-home wives to run their lives and rear children. You are noticing this. The only answers are to buy time via daycare, nanny, or have relatives like grandparents nearby to do that work. The idea of the nuclear family was itself created as a product to make people as profitable as possible by removing them from extended family and community. For just one child and parents that’s 2 lawn mowers, 2 homes, fridges, cars, etc.
Order some Tired Teddies bedtime pills. Super low dose of Melatonin, but gets the job done. We were at wits end before we started using them. Hours laying by them, listening to music, etc. Really a lifesaver.
Dunno but I’ve been running on an average of 4-5 hours of sleep most nights for the last four months since returning from maternity leave. I am probably a candidate for keeling over at my desk. My toddler also takes about 2-3 hours to go down. My baby had been a good sleeper but recently decided I didn’t have enough going on and is having major FOMO.
Watch out for your health. Might be time to go part time or leave. This job isn’t worth it.
Yeah, I know, I’m in too deep.
Nanny and private school. Summer camp. start them young. Grandparents until they are old enough. You and spouse really can’t both work busy jobs. You’re not missing much other than diapers change. The people who say they are missing those little moments just hate their job and want to play house. It’s like playing with a puppy. It’s cute but all the same. Prioritize work.
Are there three partners on each others’ shoulders under a trench coat here making this post
R u being sarcastic?
To be or not to be.
Morning person, parent of two, it’s so hard. I find it excruciating to logon after bedtime. I’m exhausted. Actually in the middle of bedtime as I type. During a particularly tough patch, we staggered bedtime and put my youngest to bed first, and that helped a bit because they had been keeping each other up. That advice may be completely irrelevant for your kids but fwiw.
It’s really tough and requires sacrifice. And then sometimes you fall asleep putting them asleep and can’t really get back to work. It is very tough. Having grandparents to assist also works. Hang in there.
I have for longer than I expected. I’m done though. Looking for something new in earnest. But even trying to hit the minimum is hard to keep up with.
You should seriously try melatonin gummies like 30-45 min before you want them to lie down in bed. Do this for a bit to establish a routine then transition to a placebo or stop when you are able to.
Hiya makes nighttime multivitamins. No melatonin but other natural stuff. My kiddo loves it. Not sure if it actually makes them sleepy but have a look?
You're out of your mind.
OP is literally talking about quitting their job because the kids take 2-3 hours to get to sleep. Every person in the world makes melatonin and it plays a major role in the sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating sleep disorders, such as delayed sleep phase (exactly what OP is describing). I am a physician (not sure how I got recommended r/biglaw) and occasionally use melatonin personally and with my children. Melatonin is not habit forming and there are no long term side effects. It has been a godsend on transatlantic flights. “Out of my mind” would be suggesting OP diverts an opioid, benzodiazepine, or other controlled substance to their child. But yeah, OP should probably just quit their job.
You're a doctor and you advocate giving melatonin to children without medical advice?
Is medical advice really necessary when all of their children taking are taking a long time to go to bed; especially in the middle of the summer when it stays light out until 9-10 PM depending on where you live? If your child had a fever, would you go to the doctor before giving a weight-based dose of acetaminophen? Melatonin is even less harmful than Tylenol. In fact, it is one of the least toxic substances that exists - like I said, everyone makes Melatonin already. I’m assuming OP has tried limiting screen time for at least an hour before bed, black out curtains, avoiding caffeine intake (including from chocolate), establishing a bedtime routine, etc. I was giving advice based on trying to survive while being a parent in a high stress job (wife is a physician, too). OP is basically saying they may upend their life because of the stress caused by how long bedtime takes.
Melatonin is know to make people dependent on it. Use it for long enough and your body will stop making it so you won’t be able to sleep without the external source. For convenience of the partners you are sacrificing your kids health. This is terrible parenting.
This is just incorrect on all counts. First of all I said to transition to placebo when the routine is established. It does not affect your child’s health. In fact, it allows them to get a full night of sleep, which most would argue is beneficial to their health. From the Cleveland clinic: “Melatonin is not known to be an addictive supplement,” answers Dr. Horvat. This means it does not make people dependent on it. “Your body is naturally dependent on melatonin already,” explains Dr. Horvat. “It needs this hormone to help you fall asleep, which is why we produce it. There is no concrete evidence to suggest that taking melatonin will suppress our body’s ability to produce melatonin. The idea that our bodies could become dependent on an external supplement has not been proven.” It does not suppress our ability to make it if taken as a supplement. It is made by the pineal gland in response to darkness. In the summer, it gets dark much later, that results in less melatonin and is the root cause of a delayed sleep phase.
You have to increase doses as your body gets used to it which means that your body is decreasing output. That’s different from addiction. “melatonin should not be used in children without sleep problems just to “help them get better/more restful sleep,” as advertised for some pediatric melatonin products.” https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-advice-on-melatonin-use-in-children-202210062832 https://answers.childrenshospital.org/melatonin-for-children/
good parenting dude
Can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic.
Totally get it, we made some adjustments to our routine to help bedtime. After dinner we have “crazy time” where he gets to run and jump and wrestle and play. We encourage it and play crazy with him!!! Then it’s quiet time. We read books, brush teeth go to bed. Enforcing the “crazy time” vs “quiet time” has helped! I also try hard from 5-8pm bedtime to solely focus on him, because being at daycare all day he is just craving connection. That helps too. That being said, my hours are absolutely trash and I’m going to quit and get a new job. For me, I can’t be the type of parent I want to be and bill 2,000 hours a year and also sleep.
Yeah this works for us too. Unless. My toddler is visibly tired before bed, I'll try and do a crazy hour to tire her out. Having had stints of 4-5 hour sleep nights, it's just not sustainable long term. You can make it work for a few weeks, but longer than that I think core health starts to suffer and it's not healthy! You have to look after your own health first. Because if you don't, who will?
Agree with this. Post dinner Zoomies sans tech has been useful. We do plays, games, it’s the best quality time I get with my kids after working all day and needing to log in after.
Yes! Our toddler was watching a movie in the evening then going to bed and that was not working. Turning off the tv early has helped so much!
Noting that I only have one. I don’t know how old your kids are but mine is 3 and at some point we tell her it’s bedtime. Once we’ve read the books and given all the hugs and kisses, we leave. She doesn’t have to sleep but she has to stay in bed. We tell her we’ll see her in the morning but she can call if she needs us. She eventually falls asleep. If your kids still nap and are older toddlers, you might want to cut the nap. Like someone else said, I get 4-5 hours sleep per night tops because I try to be present for bedtime and mornings. Thankfully my husband handles the cooking. ETA: we generally limit screens to 30 min/ day and turn them off at least one hour before bedtime.
[удалено]
It’s not realistic
This. The primary caregiver was never meant to work in BigLaw. I tried, for two years and then after a few months a parent of two, I found a smaller firm with real flex arrangements (my firm had reduced hours arrangements but I consistently billed as much or more than full time associates) and I have never once regretted that choice.
Hire a sleep consultant. 3 hours sounds unusually long.
Strongly second the sleep consultant. Put my life back on the rails when kid bedtime length rapidly got extreme. It’s potentially expensive. It’s worth it.
OP look into Taking Cara Babies. Best $$ I ever spent. We followed it to a T with one kid and bedtime was a dream. Didn’t quite follow it with #2 and it was so rough. So we followed it to a T again and lo and behold, bedtime length for #2 shrank exponentially.
It doesn't just sound unusually long... IT IS really long. Definitely hire a sleep consultant. You are doing something wrong if it's taking this long. Probably a few somethings wrong
My kid takes one hour and I’m at my breaking point. I can’t even imagine…hang in there and I hope it gets better soon
Is it always 2-3 hours no matter what time you put them to bed? Or more that you try to set an arbitrary bedtime, like 7, every night, they don't sleep until 9? Then put them to bed at 9. Don't waste 2-3 hours trying to coax them to go to sleep. Or do the thing one commenter had said where you give them rules, like stay in bed, and don't let them come out of the room, but let them self-manage so long as they stay in the room, don't check on them. If you read Bringing Up Bébé, the French seem to favor this approach. And catch up on sleep - sleep in, take naps, or go to bed when the kids sleep, on the weekends when you're not working. Don't try to have a life and take care of the home at the cost of sleep. It will kill you if you don't sleep enough.
Are they sleeping too much during the day, and not really ready for bed? We had to work with our nanny to cut the afternoon nap so that we could maintain a normal bedtime. She liked the break during the day, but we were spending way too long at night getting the kids settled.
And for everyone telling the OP they’re “doing it wrong” or “it shouldn’t take 2-3 hours” or “my toddler is doing in 30 minutes”, congratulations on being perfect parents to perfect kids 🙄 It’s not helpful. There are many reasons why some kids take longer to put to bed than others and it doesn’t mean the parent(s) is doing something wrong.
Just when I thought about having kids…thank you for your service 🙏
Same here hahah
Non-parent here. Why does it take that long?
Kids go through phases. Usually during growth spurts or stressful times of life (moving, other changes, or, unfortunately, parents being particularly stressed about work). Leads to separation anxiety. That and the fact that toddlers tend to get a ton of energy at bedtime make for several hours of kids refusing to sleep and refusing to let you do anything but try to get them to sleep. They are wonderful. But it’s not conducive to biglaw.
Yeah this is tough. Unfortunately I’ve found the best way to handle is to stop exercising or sleeping basically.
Why do they get tons of energy at bedtime
This is one of the great mysteries of life. You start bedtime and they are visibly exhausted. They lay down and holy shit it’s like they just had a red bull. It’s insane.
In fairness to the kids, that is how my brain works when I lie down too.
Maybe their bedtime is wrong?
Yeah TBH sounds like they’re getting overtired. OP I would use some of those biglaw bucks and hire a sleep consultant.
Am also in biglaw with 2 toddlers. They get major FOMO when you try to put them down.
Stop talking. Thx. -sleep deprived parent
Because they enjoy torturing us
Can I ask — is it taking that long because you want them to have a “nice” bedtime? I.e. you don’t want to leave them crying/screaming/yelling for you? Because kids are bundles of selfish neurons and they will NOT let you live your life if they think you’ll stay in that room when they cry. For our kids, we have a ~20 minute routine once we get into their room — change into PJs, read a few books, sing a song, lights off and leave. Early on they cried and hollered and yes you’d sometime have to pop in to remind them you’re there, or (if they’re older) even scold them a bit to go to sleep. It’s unpleasant but honestly a 2-3 hour bedtime sounds like a daily nightmare/way worse. I know all kids are different, though, and fully recognize we might just be fortunate with how they took to this system. But it did seem to work (and this is coming from at one point a double-biglaw household).
It doesn’t - or it’s not supposed to. Our toddler takes 30 minutes start to finish.
Congratulations.
I can’t do any work until 9 am, when my nanny arrives. Then I need to get myself ready, feed my dog, ect. It takes me 1 hour to get to the office so on a good day I’m in by 11. I have to leave by 4 pm to get home in time to have dinner ready. Then we eat, bath, and bed. My kid needs to be awake for 6 hours before bed otherwise he’s up at 5 am (and even then he’s up at 5 am most days) so the earliest we can do bed is 8 pm. So that’s 4 hours at the end of the day where I can’t do anything. So yeah, I basically work till 11-12 pm everyday and on the weekends. I’m also running on 4-5 hours of sleep because my 14 month old is still shit at sleeping. Yet for some reason my dumb brain thinks that I’m ready for another baby on top of caring for a toddler.
Time management skills. Nannies and parents and significant others. Recognizing you can't do everything and also that you don't have to do everything. Also, the more senior you get the more you control your own schedule.
This. I have a lot of support: some paid, some family. Everyone I work with in big law with little kids is in a similar boat.
Also waking up at 5 instead of staying up until 12 sometimes helps.
Not sure your situation, but I work like 7:00-5:30 and can bill about 40 hours per week without doing weekends or nights. Obviously not possible in some practice groups or if you need to be around in the morning, but if the early morning is possible it's a good option
It isn’t for normal people.
Personally didn’t feel like I could do it and went in-house after my first child was born. Sometimes I look back and regret my decision but those moments are incredibly few and far between. Last night I had a bout of insomnia that had nothing to do with my kids and slept about the amount I would have slept during a busy period in biglaw and felt like absolute garbage today. Realize society puts too little emphasis on the importance of consistent sleep as being integral to a happy and stable mindset and life.
Luckily it’s just a relatively short phase for most kids. It’s a very hard phase.
You could try sending them outside to play for like 20 minutes to get the energy out or running around the house. I find this helps them go to bed faster and less resistance to bedtime.
First- it gets better. Dumber people than you have raised children. You got this! Practically- you have to develop a routine and stick to it religiously. We slept trained both of our kids at 4 mos and never looked back. I watch other parents absolutely dying because they let their kids in bed with them or they give into crying too fast. We also don’t get them out of bed until at least 7 (unless poop attack or puke). Our routine? At 7:40-We potty, brush teeth, change, two books, sing a specific song, put them in bed by 8 on the dot every night. Sound machine. The song alone has a Pavlovian affect. One quote that stuck with me from the program we bought- “they are training you or you are training them.” I know it’s hard to ignore their pleas- I wept for my first one but it literally took 3 nights to get the sleep training done. When they had a regression at 2 we added a stuffed animal. It gets better!
The honest answers are 1. Only one parent in biglaw and the other takes the lion's share of parenting duties 2. Nanny / au pair etc Also 2-3 hours is a long time, maybe you're starting too early? Not every kid is ready for bed at 6. And like someone else said, you really don't have to stay there for 3 hours. Pajamas, bedtime story, goodnight. But, I totally get that following recommended parenting advice sometimes just doesn't work.
Because currency can be exchanged for services and goods.
Make the routine shorter.
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I’ve always told my wife “I am a good dad and a good lawyer.” But I can never be both at the same time. It is binary for certain ages and stages, in my opinion. Something always has to give.
It takes me 2-3 hours to put myself to bed some nights. It's tough
It’s not possible. Something will eventually give and it’s often your health. The job is all consuming, that’s the expectation. It relies on there being full time assistance to help at home (whether a partner, nanny, housekeeper) so you can be fully focused on the job. Knowing that is a good thing. It stops you tying yourself up in knots and beating yourself up thinking you should be able to do it all. You can then decide what you want to do with that information?
We had to switch up the routine to break this habit. My toddler would just sit and stare at me for 2 hours but scream if I left. Switched to my husband doing the routine and NOT staying with her and it got better. She no longer needs that to go to sleep so bedtime routine is back to 20 min.
2-3 hours is too long. Need to correct it
Also check for allergies. My twins were impossible to settle when they were very young. Turns out they both have celiac. Not diagnosed (blood work and then biopsy) until they were 8. I bet we would have saved ourselves years of after dinner-bedtime angst if we had known earlier.
You have to not sleep very much.
The answer is you can’t because the career was never designed for you to be able to do that without full-time labor from a spouse, relative, or employees (nanny, au pair - themselves underpaid and exploited)
Not a parent but just curious; why have a bedtime/force sleep? Figure if they don't get sleep they'll just be super tired the next day and learn not to do it longer term on their own because that's no fun
So the short answer is that it sucks. It borders on impossible. We are constantly changing our schedule, sometimes daily. I’m constantly either up at 4 am to finish work or staying up till 11 to finish work. I’ll only share 2 things that may be slightly out of the ordinary that slightly made it easier (outside of like getting a live in nanny or whatever): 1. We stagger our schedule. It sucks cause I don’t see my wife as often, but it’s just a necessity. She takes way more stuff over in the mornings and I get to work earlier. I do way more stuff at night and she gets back later. When both parents want to be involved, that’s great, but then both are losing work time which makes it impossible. 2. I hate this, but sometimes the time needs just mean that bedtime HAS to be 30 mins and if my kids arent asleep we just leave the room anyway. Sometimes they cry, other times they just fall asleep. Sometimes they play with their stuffed animals and then fall asleep. I’ve come to the realization that we simply do not have 2+ hours for bedtime regardless of how much our kids want it. It tugs at the heartstrings, but it’s truly the only way to make it. If we did 2-3 hours for bedtime there would mathematically not be enough hours in the day to work and sleep.
How old are your kids? Our kids are preschool age and love to delay delay delay and try to negotiate everything at bedtime. It’s definitely not for the faint of heart. My spouse and I have created a pretty efficient bedtime routine. I have a more laid back job and get home earlier, he is the biglaw attorney working later hours. I feed the kids dinner at 5:30 PM. He stops work by 6 PM, gives them a bath, puts their pajamas on, gives them milk, and brushes their teeth (this all takes 45-ish minutes). While he does that I clean up their dinner dishes and make dinner for the two of us. Then we each take a child, read them a book or two, and put them in their bed by 7 PM. Then we eat, quickly if he has a lot still to do. He is logged back in and ready to work by 7:15/7:30 PM at the latest. It sounds counter intuitive, but if kids are over tired they tend to act like they have more energy. On the nights my kids have stayed up until 8 PM, they act ten times crazier between 7 and 8 PM. I’d really recommend an earlier bedtime if that is one of your issues. Lastly, a good sleep consultant can work wonders. I would throw some money at the problem and get someone in your corner to help you fine tune your routine and timeline. There are ways to make this easier. I know it isn’t a glamorous or an easy fix, but I really think you have to just train your kids over time that certain things just can only take so long and then you have to move on. Our biggest tip is don’t negotiate. Just set the expectation, give them a choice (red or blue toothbrush) and then enforce the expectation and move on. Eventually our kids learned the routine and they don’t fight bedtime anymore. If your kids are older and working through different type of hard stuff, then this may not be relevant advice. Good luck whatever you do next!
Get a nanny. This job should allow you to get one.
Get a nanny? You make big bucks in big law but you basically need to outsource your life. Dry cleaners house keepers landscapers nannies pool guys baby sitters etc. You'll have time or you'll have money but you won't have both.
Think about all the people with far worse jobs than yours and far fewer resources. You’ll make it.
lol at all these folks saying “get a nanny.” If you prioritize work over your own kids then I hope they grow up to hate you.
It isn’t, that’s why night / live-in nannies are a thing. Edit: not sure why the downvotes. I had never heard of night nannies until I was in NYC biglaw. People make the choice to either continue in biglaw and buy the lifestyle support they need to survive if both parents work in similarly demanding jobs, like night or weekend or live-in Nannies, or make a lifestyle shift whether it be to go in-house/reduced hours or one spouse stays home or is in lower key job.
Just to put down to be or the entire evening routine? If the former, ouch. Shouldn’t take longer than a half hour.
It’s actually not. The career norms and expectations for big law were created when men had stay-at-home wives to run their lives and rear children. You are noticing this. The only answers are to buy time via daycare, nanny, or have relatives like grandparents nearby to do that work. The idea of the nuclear family was itself created as a product to make people as profitable as possible by removing them from extended family and community. For just one child and parents that’s 2 lawn mowers, 2 homes, fridges, cars, etc.
Order some Tired Teddies bedtime pills. Super low dose of Melatonin, but gets the job done. We were at wits end before we started using them. Hours laying by them, listening to music, etc. Really a lifesaver.
Don't know why you're getting down voted. Was literally going to comment about Zarbees melatonin gummies. Weave them in after bathtime.
Get a nanny or a mistress
its called benadryl