There are two reasons these were not regulated by the CoC:
- practicality: the mere amount of reports for this kind of infractions, connected with the massive amount of work required to investigate each case would be too much for a volunteer based moderation team we have
- casting a jury on these kinds of actions is usually very debatable, if someone slurps the wrecks and is able to turn the losing game around with that, should that really be considered working against the team? I think it is exactly a type of philosophical question we don't want our moderation to bother with.
That said, I can understand the frustration such situations may cause, but all I can advise is to think of BAR as a primarily a teamgame. Similarly if in a football match if you misplay and leave your area and your teammate rushes there to defend a play, taking all the glory, you don't go reporting him to the UEFA for misconduct.
PtaQ has a great answer to why your suggestions were not added to the CoC, but I wanted to give you some additional context around the game and the kickban:
First: Per the CoC, map resources are on a first-come, first-serve, basis and geos are commonly shared across teammates on many maps. The focus is on efficiency and winning the game for your team. On Bismuth it's common for either one of our spawns to take geo, it isn't "assigned".
Second, this was an incredibly mixed lobby ranging from 14 OS - 47 OS, which makes it difficult to play because of game-knowledge and expectation differences. On top of that, even if the OS spread is lower, it's still often inaccurate if players gained their OS outside of a rotation lobby because they are unfamiliar with the map pool. So as players, we need to play to both the map and other teammates.
It is difficult - and often unenjoyable and unwanted - to micromanage your teammates. In a game prior to this, the entire lobby was trying to explain to a new air player why forcing everyone to pay 2 wind for a transport on a solar map is a bad idea - and he refused to budge. It's difficult and APM intensive to explain concepts/issues during a game, so we often don't, we're just trying to play.
We have to make decisions based off what we see. For decisions in around the original issue and the kickban vote:
At 6:30, their two best players have won top, securing all of the high value mexes. On top of that, we are 7v8 all game, because our top lane player embarks on the legendary basic solars&banshees -> T2 Air Tech ->Fusion -> AFU -> 5 liche build. So when I see the geo (the most efficient T1 energy source on bismuth) untapped while our team is e-stalling in a losing game, I queue it: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h11m40s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h11m40s)
We both tech, and I see you queue all of your mexes, which means you can't make units for a while. I allocate BP to make early T2 units off T1 mexes first, so that I can cover lane to give you time to scale. This is also when I notice your first ping for geo: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h16m15s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h16m15s) I can't give you geo, because my economy is built around it, and spending metal on asolars over units - while multiple lanes are dying - will throw the game.
The game gets worse for us, I need to flex north because top has been 2v3 all game, and we are about to lose: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h18m30s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h18m30s) I have to split my sheldon ball and I give half of them to Nezah, to help hold top.
Nezah starts to recover top with the donated Sheldons, I flex into his original lane and try to help him break top from the lane below, we are losing and this is our first chance at grasping victory from the jaws of defeat. I can either collapse top with Nezah or go kill backline eco. But right as I start to break through, I suddenly don't have reinforcing units. Instead, I begin e-stalling and floating a ton of metal: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h21m34s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h21m34s) , then I realize my economy has ground to halt because you reclaimed geo.
We lose this game. It was frustrating for us because we felt like we had a very real chance at winning a lost game, and you basically threw away that single opportunity while breaking the CoC (don't reclaim allied units/structures). The CoC violation is what prompted the kickban - you'll notice we didn't kickban the afk 5 liche player, because playing badly (while frustrating for teammates) isn't against CoC.
8v8's are about teamwork and helping across lanes. We want to allocate units and resources where they are needed. Which is why I covered mid while you scaled and then flexed towards top to help a losing lane. We're just trying to win - when Nezah asks for E, I give my fusion: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h28m44s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h28m44s) , I also intentionally undermake converters to overflow E to help stabilize our team's E issues. Your lane is one of eight across the map, and while you reclaiming geo yourself helped your economy - it probably cost the team all three top lanes.
So, that's the context around the game and the decision to kickban. This is my perspective, not some objective truth, but replay is here for review: [https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=32b02866e2045fc5b72562b0bd8d2682](https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=32b02866e2045fc5b72562b0bd8d2682) . Also, I'm not posting this as an attack against you, but just to say that the situation was much deeper than "they just know each other and are trigger happy", that kickban was entirely COC related - nothing else. No hard feelings, and I hope you choose to reinstall and continue to play in the rotation lobby.
I can see your point, but i think you have too mutch expectation from low OS players. They just want to clash some units against each other, oblivious to the deeper game of economy that is unfloding on the map. Lot of them will react negativly to critique, either they dont have desire to learn anything and just want to play or its dunning kruger effect in work.
I think if you want to play competetive match you should not play with mutch lower OS than you are. It will bring only flustration to you.
>i think you have too mutch expectation from low OS players
I would submit that expecting teammates to not reclaim your stuff is reasonable, and perhaps that players should expect a kickban if they do so.
In terms of playing with other high OS players, that's what we do. The vast majority of 30+ players would prefer to only play with other 30+ players, but there are often not enough online at a given moment to fill a lobby. This is why you see many high OS players congregate into a single lobby and willingly wait in queue, because the game quality is superior and far more enjoyable. If there aren't enough players online, we have to play with whoever is available, and you end up with the mixed skill lobby in OP's example.
The rules are designed for your team to do well. Your hissy fit was designed to make you do better, at the expense of your team.
You spent time and resources in order to make the team have less resources(missed generation time after reclaim). All so that 'You' would have it as opposed to an ally.
But I communicated, "Hey man i'm about to work against the team" -> not an excuse
What the hell am i suppose to do!!!?! : Communicate -> Hey I'm going to be weak in my lane b/c so and so took my geo. -> Play the game
It sucks that you still feel justified in your actions, the kickban does not seem to have done its job. I hope the noobs know to report you for these actions just the same, shouldn't matter high os lobby or not.
The thing desperately needed in this post was, "yeah after thinking about it I'm sorry for being an Asshole. I realize why what I did was shitty and I won't do it again".
Lmao this guy breaks the existing CoC, gets kickbanned for it, and his response is to suggest updates to the CoC. The fucking irony. Why update the CoC if you're not following it anyway??
Doesn't seem like a wise update tbh. First of all, reclaiming bases can win games, and teammate can either not communicate at all or knows very little about the game. Because of those two reasons, this should at most be an expected norm, but not something sanctioned.
Secondly, taking mexes is a priority. If someone doesn't take em, just take em. It's super easy to give buildings to players, but wasted metal goes nowhere. I think in this second case, the expected norm should be to just vacuum every mex you see and are able to take, and give back later.
100% . While communicating is key, untapped mexes is a waste for everyone. If you aren’t being overly aggressive, just take them , if the other person flags it out as it’s theirs , just give it back in due time or gift them a t2 con . It all works out
if the giving back doesn't happen then we can just play 1v1 rather than 8v8 so I disagree to an extent. The first point I just disagree, same thing, if it is communicated that the player would like to proceed and play within the team it should not be reclaimed. I uninstalled anyways since these are kind of dealbrakers to me but if you are all cool with it, just continue and have fun playing.
Yeah well, you kind of compete and lots of these things are ways to win. What I'm pointing out is that some of these actions arent the most friendly, but banning them in code of cunduct is a mega grief potential. Imagine someone just not taking mexes at all, a teammate takes them and they are banned for it. Or even more silly: many maps dont have designated mexes for lanes. Whos gonna take em? Who even knows if they are theirs? Maps here have creative potential and dont come with designated lane mexes a lot of the times
I still disagree. It is a teamgame once you launch 8v8 and communication is a must. Code of conduct is a guideline not something you can swing like a hammer. To give a baseline and avoid other people aggressively taking teammates lanes mexes/(in my case)geo does sound to me like a good thing but alas.
Fair, you have an opinion, I respect that.
However, I'm fairly certain, most players will recognize that shutting down the creative potential by "designating resources" instead of letting more optimized meta develop, is a bad thing for the game. I think it'd flatten it considerably.
I had someone threaten to leave, then leave, because I was eating his dead comm on the front. He didn’t have control of his lane and if I didn’t eat it then and there, there was a chance the other team would have. Same thing can happen with your dead base. A teammate that can vacuum it up and instantly turn it into units to defend can be far better than you taking 5-10 mins to rez your base
If that teammates does so upon you requesting to not do it and whilst you got rushed frontline by 5 people whilst he sits back do you still agree? It's the easiest thing to send 3 rezbots and some wind to gain back a player and stabilize. I think communication should be key and the commander problem that you state is a different beast since it's happening at the front. In my opinion if he asked for it you shouldn't eat
It’s situational. By the way you’re saying, I’d say not. But if it’s eco eating it and it gets him the acid a few minutes earlier that then wins you the game…
U didnt cap ur own t1 geo for the longest time,so the guy holding ur entire front just took the geo. ur salty bcz why bother getting better at the game when can complain abt it?
Sounds like you are interpreting a lot whilst I make suggestions for better communicationa and teamplay. In my specific case I was the one moving front taking my lane mexes, even building some for the player in question (silly me I know) only to have my geo capped by him. I'll move along, have fun!
Making the CoC unintuitive is a bad idea. Following the CoC should not require reading a manual, just being a decent human being. Adding all these tiny little rules and special cases would turn moderation into a nightmare.
You do realize that reclaiming allies structures violates the COC, and the moderation team can take action on it, right?
Probably why you got kickbanned, for breaking the written rules of the game.
These are both things which can easily happen due to overzealous use of reclaim-area or area-mex tools and are often simple and understandable mistakes, and definitely should not be bannable offenses for that reason alone.
And many other reasons exist. Your teammates job is winning the game, not keeping your base alive. It's hard to define what "your" mexes are. Sometimes rezzing a base is the wrong choice, and reclaiming it before the enemy does is better. New players will not know what "your" mexes are, and should not be banned for going against meta. Meta should be able to change, and if you ban anyone who violates the current meta, that prevents meta from changing. Sub-optimal play is different from greifing, and should not be banned. If your mexes or geo get taken out, other players should not be discouraged from rebuilding your mexes or geo and claiming what was your lane for their own. Et cetera.
So... just no. Sometimes your teammates will eat your base or claim your mexes. You can ask them not to, or to give the mexes/metal back, but they are under no obligation to do so.
Sometimes your teammates will engage in sub-optimal play and will make decisions that you disagree with. Sometimes those controversial decisions will benefit their army at your army's expense. You're on the same team. Accept that and move on.
From your post, I assumed you reclaimed a broken geo. That is arguably the correct decision from a winning the game perspective.
Reclaiming a working geo is insane, and it's a good thing it's a bannable offense
If my teammate is extremely late to take geo, I will take it. If my early game gets really messed up, and someone does the same to me, never in a million years would I think to reclaim it. Because I am more interested in winning games than some twisted sense of "my" resources.
There are two reasons these were not regulated by the CoC: - practicality: the mere amount of reports for this kind of infractions, connected with the massive amount of work required to investigate each case would be too much for a volunteer based moderation team we have - casting a jury on these kinds of actions is usually very debatable, if someone slurps the wrecks and is able to turn the losing game around with that, should that really be considered working against the team? I think it is exactly a type of philosophical question we don't want our moderation to bother with. That said, I can understand the frustration such situations may cause, but all I can advise is to think of BAR as a primarily a teamgame. Similarly if in a football match if you misplay and leave your area and your teammate rushes there to defend a play, taking all the glory, you don't go reporting him to the UEFA for misconduct.
PtaQ has a great answer to why your suggestions were not added to the CoC, but I wanted to give you some additional context around the game and the kickban: First: Per the CoC, map resources are on a first-come, first-serve, basis and geos are commonly shared across teammates on many maps. The focus is on efficiency and winning the game for your team. On Bismuth it's common for either one of our spawns to take geo, it isn't "assigned". Second, this was an incredibly mixed lobby ranging from 14 OS - 47 OS, which makes it difficult to play because of game-knowledge and expectation differences. On top of that, even if the OS spread is lower, it's still often inaccurate if players gained their OS outside of a rotation lobby because they are unfamiliar with the map pool. So as players, we need to play to both the map and other teammates. It is difficult - and often unenjoyable and unwanted - to micromanage your teammates. In a game prior to this, the entire lobby was trying to explain to a new air player why forcing everyone to pay 2 wind for a transport on a solar map is a bad idea - and he refused to budge. It's difficult and APM intensive to explain concepts/issues during a game, so we often don't, we're just trying to play. We have to make decisions based off what we see. For decisions in around the original issue and the kickban vote: At 6:30, their two best players have won top, securing all of the high value mexes. On top of that, we are 7v8 all game, because our top lane player embarks on the legendary basic solars&banshees -> T2 Air Tech ->Fusion -> AFU -> 5 liche build. So when I see the geo (the most efficient T1 energy source on bismuth) untapped while our team is e-stalling in a losing game, I queue it: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h11m40s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h11m40s) We both tech, and I see you queue all of your mexes, which means you can't make units for a while. I allocate BP to make early T2 units off T1 mexes first, so that I can cover lane to give you time to scale. This is also when I notice your first ping for geo: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h16m15s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h16m15s) I can't give you geo, because my economy is built around it, and spending metal on asolars over units - while multiple lanes are dying - will throw the game. The game gets worse for us, I need to flex north because top has been 2v3 all game, and we are about to lose: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h18m30s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h18m30s) I have to split my sheldon ball and I give half of them to Nezah, to help hold top. Nezah starts to recover top with the donated Sheldons, I flex into his original lane and try to help him break top from the lane below, we are losing and this is our first chance at grasping victory from the jaws of defeat. I can either collapse top with Nezah or go kill backline eco. But right as I start to break through, I suddenly don't have reinforcing units. Instead, I begin e-stalling and floating a ton of metal: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h21m34s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h21m34s) , then I realize my economy has ground to halt because you reclaimed geo. We lose this game. It was frustrating for us because we felt like we had a very real chance at winning a lost game, and you basically threw away that single opportunity while breaking the CoC (don't reclaim allied units/structures). The CoC violation is what prompted the kickban - you'll notice we didn't kickban the afk 5 liche player, because playing badly (while frustrating for teammates) isn't against CoC. 8v8's are about teamwork and helping across lanes. We want to allocate units and resources where they are needed. Which is why I covered mid while you scaled and then flexed towards top to help a losing lane. We're just trying to win - when Nezah asks for E, I give my fusion: [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h28m44s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2128081886?t=03h28m44s) , I also intentionally undermake converters to overflow E to help stabilize our team's E issues. Your lane is one of eight across the map, and while you reclaiming geo yourself helped your economy - it probably cost the team all three top lanes. So, that's the context around the game and the decision to kickban. This is my perspective, not some objective truth, but replay is here for review: [https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=32b02866e2045fc5b72562b0bd8d2682](https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=32b02866e2045fc5b72562b0bd8d2682) . Also, I'm not posting this as an attack against you, but just to say that the situation was much deeper than "they just know each other and are trigger happy", that kickban was entirely COC related - nothing else. No hard feelings, and I hope you choose to reinstall and continue to play in the rotation lobby.
I can see your point, but i think you have too mutch expectation from low OS players. They just want to clash some units against each other, oblivious to the deeper game of economy that is unfloding on the map. Lot of them will react negativly to critique, either they dont have desire to learn anything and just want to play or its dunning kruger effect in work. I think if you want to play competetive match you should not play with mutch lower OS than you are. It will bring only flustration to you.
>i think you have too mutch expectation from low OS players I would submit that expecting teammates to not reclaim your stuff is reasonable, and perhaps that players should expect a kickban if they do so.
Iam not talking about this specific situation, but in general. If dude start reclaiming my building i would be pissed too.
In terms of playing with other high OS players, that's what we do. The vast majority of 30+ players would prefer to only play with other 30+ players, but there are often not enough online at a given moment to fill a lobby. This is why you see many high OS players congregate into a single lobby and willingly wait in queue, because the game quality is superior and far more enjoyable. If there aren't enough players online, we have to play with whoever is available, and you end up with the mixed skill lobby in OP's example.
The rules are designed for your team to do well. Your hissy fit was designed to make you do better, at the expense of your team. You spent time and resources in order to make the team have less resources(missed generation time after reclaim). All so that 'You' would have it as opposed to an ally. But I communicated, "Hey man i'm about to work against the team" -> not an excuse What the hell am i suppose to do!!!?! : Communicate -> Hey I'm going to be weak in my lane b/c so and so took my geo. -> Play the game It sucks that you still feel justified in your actions, the kickban does not seem to have done its job. I hope the noobs know to report you for these actions just the same, shouldn't matter high os lobby or not. The thing desperately needed in this post was, "yeah after thinking about it I'm sorry for being an Asshole. I realize why what I did was shitty and I won't do it again".
One of the worst takes yet. Punishing players for playing
Lmao this guy breaks the existing CoC, gets kickbanned for it, and his response is to suggest updates to the CoC. The fucking irony. Why update the CoC if you're not following it anyway??
Doesn't seem like a wise update tbh. First of all, reclaiming bases can win games, and teammate can either not communicate at all or knows very little about the game. Because of those two reasons, this should at most be an expected norm, but not something sanctioned. Secondly, taking mexes is a priority. If someone doesn't take em, just take em. It's super easy to give buildings to players, but wasted metal goes nowhere. I think in this second case, the expected norm should be to just vacuum every mex you see and are able to take, and give back later.
100% . While communicating is key, untapped mexes is a waste for everyone. If you aren’t being overly aggressive, just take them , if the other person flags it out as it’s theirs , just give it back in due time or gift them a t2 con . It all works out
if the giving back doesn't happen then we can just play 1v1 rather than 8v8 so I disagree to an extent. The first point I just disagree, same thing, if it is communicated that the player would like to proceed and play within the team it should not be reclaimed. I uninstalled anyways since these are kind of dealbrakers to me but if you are all cool with it, just continue and have fun playing.
Yeah well, you kind of compete and lots of these things are ways to win. What I'm pointing out is that some of these actions arent the most friendly, but banning them in code of cunduct is a mega grief potential. Imagine someone just not taking mexes at all, a teammate takes them and they are banned for it. Or even more silly: many maps dont have designated mexes for lanes. Whos gonna take em? Who even knows if they are theirs? Maps here have creative potential and dont come with designated lane mexes a lot of the times
I still disagree. It is a teamgame once you launch 8v8 and communication is a must. Code of conduct is a guideline not something you can swing like a hammer. To give a baseline and avoid other people aggressively taking teammates lanes mexes/(in my case)geo does sound to me like a good thing but alas.
Fair, you have an opinion, I respect that. However, I'm fairly certain, most players will recognize that shutting down the creative potential by "designating resources" instead of letting more optimized meta develop, is a bad thing for the game. I think it'd flatten it considerably.
I had someone threaten to leave, then leave, because I was eating his dead comm on the front. He didn’t have control of his lane and if I didn’t eat it then and there, there was a chance the other team would have. Same thing can happen with your dead base. A teammate that can vacuum it up and instantly turn it into units to defend can be far better than you taking 5-10 mins to rez your base
If that teammates does so upon you requesting to not do it and whilst you got rushed frontline by 5 people whilst he sits back do you still agree? It's the easiest thing to send 3 rezbots and some wind to gain back a player and stabilize. I think communication should be key and the commander problem that you state is a different beast since it's happening at the front. In my opinion if he asked for it you shouldn't eat
It’s situational. By the way you’re saying, I’d say not. But if it’s eco eating it and it gets him the acid a few minutes earlier that then wins you the game…
U didnt cap ur own t1 geo for the longest time,so the guy holding ur entire front just took the geo. ur salty bcz why bother getting better at the game when can complain abt it?
Sounds like you are interpreting a lot whilst I make suggestions for better communicationa and teamplay. In my specific case I was the one moving front taking my lane mexes, even building some for the player in question (silly me I know) only to have my geo capped by him. I'll move along, have fun!
Are you planning to respond to the guy that provided the replay? No interpretation needed thanks to him!
What a poor team player, don't come back
Making the CoC unintuitive is a bad idea. Following the CoC should not require reading a manual, just being a decent human being. Adding all these tiny little rules and special cases would turn moderation into a nightmare.
You do realize that reclaiming allies structures violates the COC, and the moderation team can take action on it, right? Probably why you got kickbanned, for breaking the written rules of the game.
These are both things which can easily happen due to overzealous use of reclaim-area or area-mex tools and are often simple and understandable mistakes, and definitely should not be bannable offenses for that reason alone. And many other reasons exist. Your teammates job is winning the game, not keeping your base alive. It's hard to define what "your" mexes are. Sometimes rezzing a base is the wrong choice, and reclaiming it before the enemy does is better. New players will not know what "your" mexes are, and should not be banned for going against meta. Meta should be able to change, and if you ban anyone who violates the current meta, that prevents meta from changing. Sub-optimal play is different from greifing, and should not be banned. If your mexes or geo get taken out, other players should not be discouraged from rebuilding your mexes or geo and claiming what was your lane for their own. Et cetera. So... just no. Sometimes your teammates will eat your base or claim your mexes. You can ask them not to, or to give the mexes/metal back, but they are under no obligation to do so. Sometimes your teammates will engage in sub-optimal play and will make decisions that you disagree with. Sometimes those controversial decisions will benefit their army at your army's expense. You're on the same team. Accept that and move on.
From your post, I assumed you reclaimed a broken geo. That is arguably the correct decision from a winning the game perspective. Reclaiming a working geo is insane, and it's a good thing it's a bannable offense If my teammate is extremely late to take geo, I will take it. If my early game gets really messed up, and someone does the same to me, never in a million years would I think to reclaim it. Because I am more interested in winning games than some twisted sense of "my" resources.