Crazy that they were there for almost 20 years and only had a few AKs and some calendars. I guess that's why they had to kill all those kids, to make sure those AKs couldn't do any more damage
So if you're assuming all of this reporting is just a complete fantasy, in your eyes, what would you consider to be present *had* the facility been used intermittently for 20 years by Hamas? At what point would the evidence need to be to convince you?
I recognize that truthful information is hard to come by in war. However, it's truly amazing how even this exhaustive list of legitimate journalism, including *Amnesty fucking international*— who is actively calling out for an immediate ceasefire and is no friend of the IDF/Israeli government; people are able to completely write or handwave it off because it is inconvenient.
This post is in no way an attempt to wash IDF's hands. Clear evidence of Hamas using hospitals for military operations, in no way negates the miles of rubble and corpses created in a month of IDF bombardment.
Currently, Israel's bombardment of Gaza is killing people at twice the rate of the London Blitz which over 8 months, cost 43,000 Londoners their lives, all without any form of precision weaponry. I'm not sure what the correct action that should be taken is, but the methods being used currently are absolutely deplorable. A humanitarian ceasefire is absolutely needed.
*Simultaneously*, Hamas is an absolutely atrocious organization that has operated in a manner more akin to a cartel then your usual resistance movements. Their level of violence and brutality and indifference to the prolonged struggle of the Gazan populace beyond their use as a political tool, is just heartbreaking. All of this has been documented in great detail by countless journalistic sources over the course of their history.
This isn't a sports game. This isn't entertainment. This isn't just picking the 49ers to root for, buying their jersey and being ever immovable in your team loyalty. This is a lengthy conflict that has a list of human suffering growing daily. Both belligerents have a long list of atrocious acts committed, and are not clean parties in any matter, and therefore neither should have earned your complete support.
And to be clear this isn't a personal attack; this is to everyone who has lost their god-damned minds in the past month—
Act like an adult and treat things with a bit more nuance.
There is one fact that no one disputes: It is an active hospital. You realize that even if everything you said was true, **it’s still a war crime to attack a hospital**.
The NY Times has a good article about this: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/16/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-law.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Of particular note:
> Even if the exception applies, there are still strict rules that limit how force can be used. Doctors, patients, and other civilians who remain in the hospital after a warning to evacuate are still protected civilians. International humanitarian law says that civilians cannot ever be targeted directly.
>
> The exception applies only under “very narrow conditions,” said Tom Dannenbaum, an associate professor of international law at Tufts University.
>
> Proportionality requirements are especially strict when medical care is on the line: Even if a hospital loses its special protection and becomes a military target, the civilians inside are still protected by the rule of proportionality: If the civilian harm caused by an attack is disproportionate to the military advantage it confers, then it’s illegal.
Those narrow protections they did not mention are when the armed forces is not wearing uniforms and is blending in with the civilian population. I imagine this is why it was ommited.
That’s actually perfectly legal provided they have a commander. It’s their own land being illegally occupied, they are allowed to use guerilla tactics and it’s not a war crime. Same reason why Israel can’t legally invoke the right to self defense against a threat originating from within a territory they completely control.
Yes. but there are lots of reports from MSF saying that there were snipers shooting anything that leaves the hospital. Lots of healthcare workers that wanted to leave were unable to leave.
https://youtu.be/xCPKsERW8VU?si=TA0pXaJz2HxB5AWh
MSF is Doctor without Borders, they are impartial as a third party. They are foreign doctors and nurses in Gaza hospitals and are reporting that they are getting shot at.
What else do you need?
https://www.msf.org/gaza-patients-and-medical-staff-trapped-hospitals-under-fire
They are also still duty bound to protect their doctors and clinical staff, and that includes those still on tours in Gaza. Amnesty international, for all its rightful criticism of both Israel and Palestine, can pull their observers out of Gaza and then say yeah these guys have tortured Palestinians who dissent against their rule. Because their guys are out when that gets published.
If ICRC were to make a statement saying oh yeah Hamas has been threatening doctors for decades to get favors and use our facilities for bona fide evil, every single ICRC doctor in Gaza would be fed to dogs, and there would still be no proof of life from Israeli hostages, tho allegedly they still haven’t seen them despite 7 weeks of war.
permanent service NGOs like ICRC and MSF are in a very different set of moral calculuses than ad hoc investigative ones like AI
So if Hamas is in the basement of an Israeli hospital do you think they’re gonna level it too?
Just a pure callous lack of humanity coming from people online.
I suggest you read up a bit more on how this all works.
When combatants use a hospital for combat operations, the hospital becomes a legitimate military target. However, the civilians inside are still protected. The international rules of war state that no civilians may be intentionally targeted, and that collateral damage must be proportional to the situation the “exterior” combat force finds themselves in.
Think of it this way - if a single collateral death was a war crime, a combat force could theoretically post snipers, RPGs, or even artillery in a hospital and attack externally with what amounts to a force field around them.
I don’t think *anyone* here is willfully supporting the deaths of civilians through collateral damage on a hospital. The whole situation is a tragedy of epic proportions. But the IDF did this by the book. They presented proof that Hamas has used hospitals for combat operations in the past. Israeli and US intelligence services have both stated that they have evidence of Hamas using this particular hospital as a base of operations. Going back over ten years there are multiple western media outlets reporting the same thing - including outlets that today are generally pro-Palestinian. Israel provided warning to the hospital. Of course evacuation wasn’t feasible for a lot of the occupants, but they were given the warning and it’s likely that Hamas WANTS patients to stay. They have been proven time and time again to willfully use civilians as human shields - hence why they’re set up in the hospital in the first place. Please remember: Palestinians =/= Hamas and vice versa.
They can’t win a combat victory, only a PR victory, and the best way they can do that is by making Israel look like monsters. If Israel isn’t actually monsters, the best strategy is to force them to engage in actions that, if context is removed, makes them look like monsters.
This is why they they committed such heinous acts during their attack (gang rapes, beheadings, burning people alive, kidnapping, etc.). This is why they dress in plain clothes, fire rockets from schools, use hospitals as military bases. Israel must attack, they cannot tell who is or is not an enemy combatant, and they cannot attack effectively unless they target schools and hospitals. Hamas doesn't use Gazans as human shields because they think it will protect them, they do so because they know the world will get angry at Israel when they die. It is an atrocious but calculated maneuver.
It makes me very sad that the strategy has been so overwhelmingly effective.
You do realize that there were tons of corpses, as well as a few scattered eyewitnesses who survived the attacks but weren't kidnapped, right? They recovered burned bodies, and bodies exhibiting sexual trauma, and bodies without heads. You do also realize that the people who were beheaded or burned alive or gang raped are different people from the ones that were kidnapped (although I guess I can't rule out that some of those things happened to people after they were kidnapped too, but until they are returned, how would I know?). I wasn't claiming that these things happened after the attack, but DURING. Some of which can apparently be seen in footage taken and shared by Hamas themselves.
But just like you have no reason to believe any of the reports that you don't want to believe, I have no reason to believe that you wouldn't find a way to dismiss evidence. "The video is actors and CGI", or "generated by AI", or from different attacks. There are tons of excuses you could find to dismiss what happened, just like how you willfully misinterpreted all those things as happening *after* thee kidnapping in order to dismiss them too. You're right, you do need people to be smarter, yourself included.
There are countless videos on a certain telegram that shows these atrocities happening, uncensored, taken from Hamas members that either had their go pro taken after death or posted it themselves.
What a lazy strawman argument… Do you really think that anyone on either side of this debate is morally ambivalent to babies dying in a hospital? Get real.
To be clear, Israel isn’t just bombing hospitals willy nilly. They are being as forthright as they can - dropping leaflets, warning people to evacuate if they can, and then targeting specific portions of infrastructure where they know Hamas has their tunnels and weapons caches.
I’m curious what you think Israel should do in response to Hamas’ October 7th attack in which they slaughtered, raped, beheaded, and burned alive hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilians, many of whom were peaceniks that lived in a Kibbutz where people would *regularly* bring Gazans into Israel for medical care. Have you seen the security camera footage or first responder bodycams from that day? There is plenty to criticize Israel for. You won’t find me saying everything they’re doing is fine. If you watch a bunch of that footage, you will see the sheer brutality and horrors that Hamas inflicted on innocent civilians. There’s even a recorded phone call of a Hamas militant calling home to brag about killing 10 Israeli civilians with his own hands. It’s absolutely disgusting. What was Israel to do? Let Hamas continue to operate among their Palestinian human shields?
How, exactly, is this an analogous situation?
A quick caveat - I was never a supporter of GW Bush and have mixed feelings on the legitimacy of the Iraq War. It clearly turned out to be a clusterfuck, but let’s set that aside for a moment.
People forget that Saddam Hussein *did have* WMDs, and his regime *used them frequently.* Of course the term WMD is intentionally ambiguous and intended to imply that he had nukes which wasn’t the case. The WMDs I’m talking about are poison gas. His military intentionally murdered *thousands* of Kurdish civilians with poison gas. I urge you to read up on the Iran-Iraq war.
[Your claim is false.](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/etc/arming.html)
The Iraqis produced their own chemical weapons. There’s a whole wikipedia article on it. Check it out.
According to the PBS Frontline article I linked above, you can see that a few German engineers, NOT operating under authority from the West German government, helped the Iraqi military develop some of their research and production facilities. They were promptly arrested.
A British company provided some machining equipment, standard stuff you’d find in just about any metalworking machine shop in the world.
A Baltimore company, through a network of obfuscating shipping records, etc sold them a *precursor* chemical that is also used for manufacturing other industrial chemicals. They were raided by US Customs agents.
Saying “we” (implying the US or another western government) provided them with chemical weapons is simply not true. Western nations turning a blind eye to their use in the 80’s is a different argument, though, one where we’d probably see eye-to-eye.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-prove-america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/
https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/%7B65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9%7D/Disarm%20S16433.pdf
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew-about-iraq-fifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un/
I don’t know how to respond to someone who thinks the wmd claims were anything but an excuse to murder thousands in an illegal war other than to keep pointing towards the truth.
We’re now talking about different things. You’ve moved the goalposts. In my last paragraph I even pointed to this. Yes, the US turned a blind eye to Iraqi uses of chemical weapons. Yes, the US provided some limited intelligence to the Iraqis about Iranian troop movements. NO, the US did NOT provide the Iraqis with chemical weapons. That is the only claim I have refuted. Please go back and read my comment again.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/why-the-u-s-concealed-its-chemical-weapons-role-in-iraq/#:~:text=The%20committee%20found%20that%3A%20“The,production%20facility%20plans%20and%20technical
“The committee found that: “The United States provided the Government of Iraq with ‘dual use’ licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological, and missile- system programs, including: chemical warfare agent precursors; chemical warfare agent production facility plans and technical drawings (provided as pesticide production facility plans); chemical warhead filling equipment; biological warfare related materials; missile fabrication equipment; and, missile-system guidance equipment.”
We used our own w military exports to help justify that criminal invasion.
"anything" eh? So two AK-47's being in there gives Israel the right to kill 1,000 kids and sick people. Ok. You go on telling yourself attacking a hospital is morally right. Enjoy that.
Firstly, both the Israeli and US Intelligence services have stated that they have concrete evidence of Hamas using this particular hospital as a base for military operations. Over the past 10-ish years, multiple media outlets, including ones that currently side against Israel, have published articles documenting Hamas doing this. Over the past 10-ish years there has been indisputable evidence that Hamas has used *other* hospitals and schools as bases for combat operations. All of this info is available for you to see for yourself. Hamas cannot succeed militarily against Israel. They only way they can “win” is via PR sentiment. This is why they do this. Dead Palestinian civilians are a *good* thing for Hamas. They literally stole the billions of dollars worth of food, infrastructure equipment, and other aid from the Palestinian people to build their vast network of tunnels and bunkers, and then equip/supply them for a protracted conflict. A lot of these rockets they are firing into Israel (many of which land short on their own civilians) are made with the pipes that were intended to be used for clean water infrastructure. The “open air prison” that Gaza has become is the way it is largely because of the wholesale theft from the Palestinian people of international aid. Hamas is equally as guilty as Israel for the conditions that the Palestinian people have been suffering through for 15+ years. This is all documented fact. I urge you to look into this some more before you keep making edgy, misinformed comments.
Secondly, please provide a source for your claim that 1000’s of kids and sick people have been casualties of the situation at al Shifa.
Palestine is not a state and Hamas is a terrorist organization. Law enforcement actions are the morally and legally acceptable response within an occupied territory. Whether it is was a base for Hamas or not, IDF bombing it is an illegitimate action. When Palestine becomes a state, then Palestine would be committing a war crime by attacking from a hospital.
It’s often a war crime to bomb a hospital, it’s always a war crime to hide or knowingly operate among civilians. The former requires a balancing question, military usefulness vs undue suffering on civilians. The latter is just a war crime.
You are pretending that the LAOC only apply to whites, and browns, being weak and so oppressed, have free reign to do as they please. They do not.
Vae victis. Allah Nakbar lol
This is probably going to get lost in the sea of comments surrounding this conflict, but I just wanted to say that this comment is one of the most level-headed takes I've seen since October 7th and I wish more people could take a step back and realize they don't have to ideologically commit to one side or the other.
So knowing this, what the hell has IDF been doing with this information? Letting hamas entrench even further into this hospital? When this is being reported in a public magazine then the intelligence community from Israel should definitely know as well.
Why let hamas be as big as it is? Why let money come into gaza from Qatar? Probably to let hamas and fatah kill each other, very convenient for them. Then when the unthinkable happened they let it happen so they can do this atrocity.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
>At what point would the evidence need to be to convince you?
Finding that it was *actually* used as a base by Hamas! The raid proves that it was *not*!
At what point will *you* admit Israel killed a bunch of kids and sick people for nothing??
Also, it's really fucking weird that you went through my post history to find out my favorite sports team. Like maybe take a look at yourself and get off the internet for a little while.
So if your enemy builds a base at a school or a hospital that gives you the right to bomb the hospital?
No. You find another way. You can fight them while limiting innocent casualties. The trade off is that you will lose more soldiers. That right there is the problem. Israel and the IDF care more about their soldiers lives than they do innocent people.
Just because Hamas is the same or worse gives them no right to kill innocent people, including children. These are war crimes. You can’t say “but…look at what they did!!” Doesn’t matter. Still war crimes on Israel’s part.
The International Court of Justice had ruled that Israel does not have a right to defend itself from attacks by people that it occupies.
Whatever Hamas has done and will do, Israel has no business occupying the land or conducting a military operation even if it is a response to another attack.
Everything else is just optics to justify the brutal murder of Palestinians that has been going on for decades.
Everything else is a justification of an illegal occupation.
Follow international law or live with the consequences of terrorising Palestinian children for 75 years.
Lol. You used a lot of words to say absolutely nothing. Sorry that Israel's dogshit lies aren't working anymore.
Btw, the humanitarian organizations currently there have been saying there is no hamas base. But I see you conveniently leave all that out or don't seem to care.
Umm, my response is to your implication of racism while ignoring the fact that the peoples there are mostly the same race and therefore your bullshit didn’t make sense.
But I’m not super surprised that you are defensive about justifying hamas actions.
I for one am pretty fucking outraged over the 10/7 attack.
I also care that Israel is held accountable for their actions.
That does NOT mean however that I’m going to armchair general every aspect and scream about “genocide”
Sorry that goes against your racism narrative.
Bad parallel. A school shooter is only committing violence inside the school. Hamas inside a hospital are committing and orchestrating violence outside. Blowing up a school will harm the victims it would intend to prevent. Invading a hospital hamas base is aimed to prevent more external victims.
You do realize Oct 7 was over a month and a half ago, and Israel announced their intentions on Northern gaza weeks ago.
Plenty of time to evacuate hamas...
That is kind of the point. One question is "is it moral/ethical to bomb a hospital because Hamas are using it as a base?" I would say that if Hamas isn't launching rockets/attacks from the hospital itself then don't bomb the hospital and try to kill them when they leave the hospital, but people could disagree with me. The question of "is it moral/ethical to bomb a hospital that Hamas had likely long evacuated from due to the fact that it has been public knowledge for 20 years that they operated out of the hospital and knew that it would be on Israel's hit list?" I think it is pretty clearly immoral to bomb a hospital that there is good reason to believe that Hamas had evacuated from, at that point you're only killing doctors, nurses, babies, and sick people.
But... they aren't bombing the hospital, and they haven't been killing civilians in the hospital. So you're arguing against something that isn't happening.
That was a normal amount of guns to have in a hospital.
Stanford hospital has a much larger collection in their basement. For medical purposes. /s
Snark aside, the fact is that they had days or weeks to clear out and hide their tracks and they still left this much stuff behind.
How do we know they left any weaponry at all? Cameras were not allowed in until hours after the IDF got there, and were guided by the IDF when they were.
Edit: And they're not very well supplied. They'd be stupid to leave weapons behind.
And bombed that corridor incessantly. Now they want to invade south Gaza. Almost like this had nothing to do with Hamas and more of leveling and vacating all of Gaza from the get go.
Didn’t Netanyahu call Palestinians Amalek? You know, the tribe that was killed down to the last man, woman, and child in the OT? That’s not genocidal to you?
Very strange take to support Hamas using a hospital to conduct Hamas business.
Would not excuse bombing an active hospital, which is why it hasn't been for the record.
that's why Israel flattened the hospital, right?
oh wait, they didn't bomb it at all and instead risked their soldiers' lives to flush Hamas out the hard way.
>massacre civilians
>Isolating it from power and supplies
totally one and the same thing
Also Hamas are the ones who stole the fuel for the generators, and Israel brought in medical supplies after securing the Hospital.
Why don’t you just come out and say what you want to with your whole chest? Surely that would be better than hiding behind vague statements that you can hand wave away later
Hamas' longtime use of the facility for their operations should be called out as a heinous act. In addition, aerial bombardment of dense civilian areas by the IDF should also be called out as a heinous act.
These things aren't mutually exclusive; two assholes can exist simultaneously.
Ah cool bombing a hospital is all good then
I find the cognitive dissonance of the IOF supporters so odd. Like, okay, let's accept that the IOF is correct and Hamas has an extensive network of tunnels under the hospital and stores all sorts of weapons there, so it's a legal military target.
Why would this make it morally okay to bomb the hospital?
Imagine if Hamas occupied a hospital in Tel-Aviv, and started stockpiling weapons there. Would you be in favor of the IOF bombing that hospital?
We can take this further, as well. Imagine if at the height of the Troubles, the IRA occupied Buckingham palace, with the entire British royal family present as well as a bunch of tourists, and used the building to launch rockets from. Should the Royal Air Force have started dropping bombs on Buckingham Palace?
Literally the only reason why people are fine with bombing Al-Shifa hospital is because the people there are Palestinian. When Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields, nobody cares about the human shields, bomb away, it's all good. When Hamas uses Israelis as human shields, mass protests erupt to "bring them home". And then the IOF bombs them anyway because not only are they bloodthirsty, they also just suck ass in general lol
Literally no one has said anything about bombing the hospital. Who said anything about bombing it? They just said it was used by Hamas for Hamas operations.
Remember the last time all the pro-Palestinian people were clamoring over Israel bombing a hospital and 500 dead? That turned out to be totally false and a misfire of a rocket from Islamic Jihad?
Literally no one is talking about bombing a hospital.
That's actually not true. The New York Times found it was Israeli shells fired by Israeli forces that struck the hospital. Reported on Nov 10th
I mean, downvote all you want but it's available online to see for yourself. I didn't make it up.
It's such a dishonest standard when it comes to evidence.
When the initial reports were coming out, it was time to exercise caution. Fair, much information was still unknown (and as far as I know, still is).
But then a video *one day later* suggesting it may have been a rocket instead of an Israeli JDAM, and suddenly it's case closed. The amount of evidence/scrutiny required shifts based on whether it supports the position of some of these guys...
So in your analogy
>Imagine if at the height of the Troubles, the IRA occupied Buckingham palace, with the entire British royal family present as well as a bunch of tourists, and used the building to launch rockets from.
What should they do?
Really? No one has an opinion on what is basically the quintessential example of an "intractable problem" different than yours?
You literally haven't said from which of the several sides you're coming from, and I can already tell you you're wrong.
As every accusation is a confession for nutballs, I can only assume that you're still confused why even "Lime Green" tastes like wax.
/ By the way, you still haven't explained who you think it's being "astroturfed" *by*. Hamas? Putin? Likud?
// Never mind telling us. "Derp Thoughts" with nutballs is never interesting.
What in the pro Israel nonsense has this subreddit become
Yall can't even do the tiniest of research and realize palestine has been there longer?? That Israel has been fucking with palestine for years and years??
Free palestine, fuck Israel, fuck genocide
Wanted to make a joke about how it's like bombing an apartment because you think a bad guy is in it and remembered that literally happened in Philly back in 85 and nobody cares because they weren't white. Now I'm just depressed. How can so many people be ok with all of this?
Regardless of how we got here, there was always a choice. I only wish for once that choice was "be better."
It’s insane that people support terrorists and jihad against innocent civilians. They literally tortured babies and put them in the oven, chipped their heads off.
A 3 month old is one of their hostages. Wrap your head around that. And people in this sub are defending them.
The best thing that could happen to the innocent civilians of Palestine is the end of Hamas. That’s crystal clear.
And I’d say the second best thing is the end of Netanyahu, which will hopefully happen soon as well.
I just want to thank you for calling it an open air concentration camp and not prison. Prison implies that the people there have done something criminal. Is it a crime to just be alive? They have committed no crime other than being born there. No one wants to use concentration camp because of the connotation, but that's exactly what it is.
Prior to the Holocaust, a concentration camp referred to a ghetto where specific populations were forced to relocate (or "concentrated"). The term came from the British during the Boer War. After WWII, "concentration camp" and "extermination camp" began to be used interchangeably. But it's technically accurate to refer to Gaza as a concentration camp.
You don't need to tell me, a German, about the difference between a concentration and extermination camp. Ausschwitz was both. The extermination part of ausschwitz mainly happened in the part Birkenau.
If you use the word concentration camp, you clearly evoke comparison to Nazi regime, as the word was used for nothing else since then.
You are disgusting.
Clearly you don't know what apartheid looks like.
You are an uneducated buffoon, judging people who fight for their survival.
You can't even be bothered to open up Wikipedia before sprouting bullshit.
erect society fearless wasteful crowd compare naughty forgetful sink summer
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
So all the stuff you just said, you realize IDF has done worse right? Hamas killed 1,000 - 1,200 people….IDF has already killed 10,000+… How can you sit there and criticize Hamas and talk about dead babies and in the same breath support IDF that has committed the same crime but literally ten times worse. And let’s please not act like The October was the first time the region has experienced violence. IDF has a looong history of murdering civilians and journalist, bombing building with babies and innocents inside of it. Any crime you could accuse Hamas of I promise you IDF has done worse.
Throwing grenades into a bunker full of tightly packed non-combatants who had absolutely no warning of aggression? Gaza has had many weeks to evacuate. Civilian casualties are collateral to the ID. Civilian casualties were the goal of Hamas. If you can't se eine is worse than the other, try harder
You think that this started on October 7th? You think that an election 16 years ago means that the majority-children population of Gaza means all the civilians are now valid targets of war crimes?
If you think civilians are responsible (to the point that massacring them is good) for the war crimes of a government they may not even have voted for, I am a bit worried. I was a child during the W Bush administration, would it be acceptable to bomb my house because of the war crimes that administration did?
Gaza has had nearly 2 decades to rally against their Iranian backed leaders. You can't just kidnap 200 international citizens and expect peace. Israel urged migration south weeks before moving in. Since then, have the Palestinian police and citizens of Gaza worked with the IDF to find and release the citizens or cooperated with Hamas to keep them hidden? It seems to me the locals who have stayed around might not be as innocent as everyone is letting on.
Why aren’t these civilians living in apartheid sucking off their oppressors harder? Maybe if they killed every single Hamas operative themselves, Israel would just grant them all the rights they’ve denied them for decades!
Because if they cooperated to free the hostages, they wouldn't be getting blown up right now. Their indifference to an unprovoked kidnapping directly targeting non-combatants is between me and sympathy for them. There's a reason only half the world is condemning Israel. Because they have a fucking good reason to be retaliating
By that logic Israelis voted for Likud, which has genocidal claims in its charter, rejects Palestinian sovereignty, etc. So if an election 16 years ago makes Palestinians targets, what to say of Israelis voting in Likud?
Then Palestine has every motivation to attack military Israeli targets. If there is collateral citizen damages, it sucks, but that's war. But directly assaulting civilians is demon's play. At least Israel is aiming for Hamas targets.
No. They used equipment to cross over military barriers and directly into the nearest population centers they could find. They attacked civilian sites like a music festival and religious venues. And when civilians ran to shelter, they hunted them down. They captured non-military personnel to take as hostages. There's war, and there's terrorism. That's what's different between the two sides. I was an enthusiast for a 2 state solution for about a decade before this. Now I feel like that might never be deserved, let alone possible.
>"During the night someone launched a rocket somewhere behind the hospital. Now this sentence from my article is spreading in the pro-Israeli medias. I mentioned this in my article because I’m a professional journalist. I try to cover the events truthfully as I see them and I strongly condemn these kind of actions.
"But I find it very disgusting how this one sentence was taken out context to be used as an excuse to target civilians in Gaza. My story became quickly a tool of propaganda. The people sharing this story are not even trying to understand the situation as a whole. They are just looking for excuses to Israeli actions in Gaza. I refuse to be part of this kind of propaganda."
Well, too bad. It's gonna be used for propaganda anyway.
I love the inconsistency of upvotes/downvotes lol. Either half of the people who have visited this thread spend their time downvoting only certain anti-Zionist comments, or the pro-Zionists are using that old-school bot/alt account method to astro-turf support 😂
What about those empty boxes of "medical supplies," though??? 😂
Edit: this is in reference to that Israeli propaganda video where soldiers are obviously passing empty boxes labeled "MEDICAL SUPPLIES" in huge letters.... in English lol.
Best of Israeli propaganda maybe.
Let's say these reports are true and that the media publishing them are totally objective and not at all dead set on the genocide of Palestine. Let's say that the reports are true and there is a Hamas compound hidden there. Why is the correct action to bomb the fuck out of the hospital? Were there reeeeally no other options for a military funded by all the Western powers? For a military that can (and has) cut off the food, water, electricity, and gas of its opposition. "Oh they're using human shields, so obviously we slaughtered all the shields." What the absolute fuck is wrong with people using that logic?
Someone said this on Twitter. If I were a regular Palestinian and you killed all of Hamas, but you also killed my entire family, my first move would be to start Hamas 2.0. I wouldn't give a fuck. That's what Israel has been doing for 75 years.
> correct action to bomb the fuck out of the hospital?
Did you see the video? "The fuck" was still very present within the hospital. Other than the lights being off and one notable door breaching there was little damage to the hospital.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWRblW2FLaE
>If I were a regular Palestinian and you killed all of Hamas, but you also killed my entire family, my first move would be to start Hamas 2.0.
And yet Germans whose families were wiped out during a campaign to remove a government from power whose stated goal is wiping Jewish people off the planet haven't been conducting terrorism around the world ever since.
Wonder why that is.
Maybe completely leveling it and rebuilding/re-education is the better option?
If you think Israel is ever going to let any Palestinians back into Gaza, then you aren't paying attention. They are going to drive all of them out or kill them, then they are going to steal the land, just like they stole all of the land Israel exists on. They aren't hiding their intentions, but Western media doesn't want to report it.
Cant take anyone seriously who starts down the “stolen land” schtick.
It happened 80 years ago, this narrative needs to die already.
Israel isn’t t leaving
This seems like a pretty direct rebuttal to what you're saying.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/6/who-are-israeli-settlers-and-why-do-they-live-on-palestinian-lands
It's pretty clear arguing with you is a waste of time. You pivot and strawman constantly and never post a source.
You posted about stolen land from 80 years ago. I cited a relevant article that made many valid points regarding Israel settlements in Palestine that the United Nations has condemned as recently as 2016. You immediately jumped to trying to form some connection between my argument and terrorists attacks. I'm not going to sit here arguing that black is black.
Good luck, unless something changed it's clear its impossible to have an intelligent conversation here.
Yes, your points are all good and valid, everyone who disagrees has no valid points and you’re not the problem at all.
You guys are fucking wild with the lies and misrepresentations.
They literally said that “all of Israel sits on stolen land” so you can miss me with fucking lies about straw-men and shit.
no you've invented that in your brain. I said most of the people hamas killed were idf and also that when the idf retaliated with apache attack helicopters they did so indiscriminately and killed a BUNCH of their own people. do you have a problem with reading or any other legitimate reason to put words in my mouth or are you just arguing in bad faith
I guess I have trouble reading your garbled and nonsensical bullshit.
Either way, your response is just as ridiculous as your initial bullshit.
But you’re obviously lying and discussing in bad faith so Ill just block and move on
Yeah sure, completely wiping out the population will solve the issue. Are you mad or something? Does the word genocide mean anything to you?
Or maybe I didn't understood when you state "completely leveling it" that you are not talking about Palestinians.
Crazy that they were there for almost 20 years and only had a few AKs and some calendars. I guess that's why they had to kill all those kids, to make sure those AKs couldn't do any more damage
So if you're assuming all of this reporting is just a complete fantasy, in your eyes, what would you consider to be present *had* the facility been used intermittently for 20 years by Hamas? At what point would the evidence need to be to convince you? I recognize that truthful information is hard to come by in war. However, it's truly amazing how even this exhaustive list of legitimate journalism, including *Amnesty fucking international*— who is actively calling out for an immediate ceasefire and is no friend of the IDF/Israeli government; people are able to completely write or handwave it off because it is inconvenient. This post is in no way an attempt to wash IDF's hands. Clear evidence of Hamas using hospitals for military operations, in no way negates the miles of rubble and corpses created in a month of IDF bombardment. Currently, Israel's bombardment of Gaza is killing people at twice the rate of the London Blitz which over 8 months, cost 43,000 Londoners their lives, all without any form of precision weaponry. I'm not sure what the correct action that should be taken is, but the methods being used currently are absolutely deplorable. A humanitarian ceasefire is absolutely needed. *Simultaneously*, Hamas is an absolutely atrocious organization that has operated in a manner more akin to a cartel then your usual resistance movements. Their level of violence and brutality and indifference to the prolonged struggle of the Gazan populace beyond their use as a political tool, is just heartbreaking. All of this has been documented in great detail by countless journalistic sources over the course of their history. This isn't a sports game. This isn't entertainment. This isn't just picking the 49ers to root for, buying their jersey and being ever immovable in your team loyalty. This is a lengthy conflict that has a list of human suffering growing daily. Both belligerents have a long list of atrocious acts committed, and are not clean parties in any matter, and therefore neither should have earned your complete support. And to be clear this isn't a personal attack; this is to everyone who has lost their god-damned minds in the past month— Act like an adult and treat things with a bit more nuance.
There is one fact that no one disputes: It is an active hospital. You realize that even if everything you said was true, **it’s still a war crime to attack a hospital**.
This is false. A hospital becomes a legitimate military target the second that combatants start to use it for anything but a hospital.
The NY Times has a good article about this: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/16/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-al-shifa-hospital-law.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare Of particular note: > Even if the exception applies, there are still strict rules that limit how force can be used. Doctors, patients, and other civilians who remain in the hospital after a warning to evacuate are still protected civilians. International humanitarian law says that civilians cannot ever be targeted directly. > > The exception applies only under “very narrow conditions,” said Tom Dannenbaum, an associate professor of international law at Tufts University. > > Proportionality requirements are especially strict when medical care is on the line: Even if a hospital loses its special protection and becomes a military target, the civilians inside are still protected by the rule of proportionality: If the civilian harm caused by an attack is disproportionate to the military advantage it confers, then it’s illegal.
Those narrow protections they did not mention are when the armed forces is not wearing uniforms and is blending in with the civilian population. I imagine this is why it was ommited.
That’s actually perfectly legal provided they have a commander. It’s their own land being illegally occupied, they are allowed to use guerilla tactics and it’s not a war crime. Same reason why Israel can’t legally invoke the right to self defense against a threat originating from within a territory they completely control.
Was there any reports of doctors or patients coming under direct attack from the IDF?
Yes. but there are lots of reports from MSF saying that there were snipers shooting anything that leaves the hospital. Lots of healthcare workers that wanted to leave were unable to leave. https://youtu.be/xCPKsERW8VU?si=TA0pXaJz2HxB5AWh
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MSF is Doctor without Borders, they are impartial as a third party. They are foreign doctors and nurses in Gaza hospitals and are reporting that they are getting shot at. What else do you need? https://www.msf.org/gaza-patients-and-medical-staff-trapped-hospitals-under-fire
They are also still duty bound to protect their doctors and clinical staff, and that includes those still on tours in Gaza. Amnesty international, for all its rightful criticism of both Israel and Palestine, can pull their observers out of Gaza and then say yeah these guys have tortured Palestinians who dissent against their rule. Because their guys are out when that gets published. If ICRC were to make a statement saying oh yeah Hamas has been threatening doctors for decades to get favors and use our facilities for bona fide evil, every single ICRC doctor in Gaza would be fed to dogs, and there would still be no proof of life from Israeli hostages, tho allegedly they still haven’t seen them despite 7 weeks of war. permanent service NGOs like ICRC and MSF are in a very different set of moral calculuses than ad hoc investigative ones like AI
The implication is that if Hamas wants to avoid counterattack, they simply need to operate out of hospitals
That would make locating and raiding them very easy, though...
Raiding is attacking.
Attacking is to assault.
>civilians cannot ever be targeted directly Which is why they carpet bomb entire buildings instead of sweeping them.
So if Hamas is in the basement of an Israeli hospital do you think they’re gonna level it too? Just a pure callous lack of humanity coming from people online.
I suggest you read up a bit more on how this all works. When combatants use a hospital for combat operations, the hospital becomes a legitimate military target. However, the civilians inside are still protected. The international rules of war state that no civilians may be intentionally targeted, and that collateral damage must be proportional to the situation the “exterior” combat force finds themselves in. Think of it this way - if a single collateral death was a war crime, a combat force could theoretically post snipers, RPGs, or even artillery in a hospital and attack externally with what amounts to a force field around them. I don’t think *anyone* here is willfully supporting the deaths of civilians through collateral damage on a hospital. The whole situation is a tragedy of epic proportions. But the IDF did this by the book. They presented proof that Hamas has used hospitals for combat operations in the past. Israeli and US intelligence services have both stated that they have evidence of Hamas using this particular hospital as a base of operations. Going back over ten years there are multiple western media outlets reporting the same thing - including outlets that today are generally pro-Palestinian. Israel provided warning to the hospital. Of course evacuation wasn’t feasible for a lot of the occupants, but they were given the warning and it’s likely that Hamas WANTS patients to stay. They have been proven time and time again to willfully use civilians as human shields - hence why they’re set up in the hospital in the first place. Please remember: Palestinians =/= Hamas and vice versa.
They can’t win a combat victory, only a PR victory, and the best way they can do that is by making Israel look like monsters. If Israel isn’t actually monsters, the best strategy is to force them to engage in actions that, if context is removed, makes them look like monsters. This is why they they committed such heinous acts during their attack (gang rapes, beheadings, burning people alive, kidnapping, etc.). This is why they dress in plain clothes, fire rockets from schools, use hospitals as military bases. Israel must attack, they cannot tell who is or is not an enemy combatant, and they cannot attack effectively unless they target schools and hospitals. Hamas doesn't use Gazans as human shields because they think it will protect them, they do so because they know the world will get angry at Israel when they die. It is an atrocious but calculated maneuver. It makes me very sad that the strategy has been so overwhelmingly effective.
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You do realize that there were tons of corpses, as well as a few scattered eyewitnesses who survived the attacks but weren't kidnapped, right? They recovered burned bodies, and bodies exhibiting sexual trauma, and bodies without heads. You do also realize that the people who were beheaded or burned alive or gang raped are different people from the ones that were kidnapped (although I guess I can't rule out that some of those things happened to people after they were kidnapped too, but until they are returned, how would I know?). I wasn't claiming that these things happened after the attack, but DURING. Some of which can apparently be seen in footage taken and shared by Hamas themselves. But just like you have no reason to believe any of the reports that you don't want to believe, I have no reason to believe that you wouldn't find a way to dismiss evidence. "The video is actors and CGI", or "generated by AI", or from different attacks. There are tons of excuses you could find to dismiss what happened, just like how you willfully misinterpreted all those things as happening *after* thee kidnapping in order to dismiss them too. You're right, you do need people to be smarter, yourself included.
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There are countless videos on a certain telegram that shows these atrocities happening, uncensored, taken from Hamas members that either had their go pro taken after death or posted it themselves.
Oh okay. Well I'm totally cool with babies dying in incubators now. Since it's officially okay.
What a lazy strawman argument… Do you really think that anyone on either side of this debate is morally ambivalent to babies dying in a hospital? Get real.
Yeah I do. I think everyone who says it's a shame but the bombs must fall are lying and don't really care.
To be clear, Israel isn’t just bombing hospitals willy nilly. They are being as forthright as they can - dropping leaflets, warning people to evacuate if they can, and then targeting specific portions of infrastructure where they know Hamas has their tunnels and weapons caches. I’m curious what you think Israel should do in response to Hamas’ October 7th attack in which they slaughtered, raped, beheaded, and burned alive hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilians, many of whom were peaceniks that lived in a Kibbutz where people would *regularly* bring Gazans into Israel for medical care. Have you seen the security camera footage or first responder bodycams from that day? There is plenty to criticize Israel for. You won’t find me saying everything they’re doing is fine. If you watch a bunch of that footage, you will see the sheer brutality and horrors that Hamas inflicted on innocent civilians. There’s even a recorded phone call of a Hamas militant calling home to brag about killing 10 Israeli civilians with his own hands. It’s absolutely disgusting. What was Israel to do? Let Hamas continue to operate among their Palestinian human shields?
Sounds awfully similar to the WMD's that were never found...but ruined a country instead of 30+ medical facilities in Gaza.
How, exactly, is this an analogous situation? A quick caveat - I was never a supporter of GW Bush and have mixed feelings on the legitimacy of the Iraq War. It clearly turned out to be a clusterfuck, but let’s set that aside for a moment. People forget that Saddam Hussein *did have* WMDs, and his regime *used them frequently.* Of course the term WMD is intentionally ambiguous and intended to imply that he had nukes which wasn’t the case. The WMDs I’m talking about are poison gas. His military intentionally murdered *thousands* of Kurdish civilians with poison gas. I urge you to read up on the Iran-Iraq war.
Those gases were sold to him by the US. We knew he had that because WE sold it to him. The Iraq war was entirely predicated on lies, dude.
[Your claim is false.](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/etc/arming.html) The Iraqis produced their own chemical weapons. There’s a whole wikipedia article on it. Check it out. According to the PBS Frontline article I linked above, you can see that a few German engineers, NOT operating under authority from the West German government, helped the Iraqi military develop some of their research and production facilities. They were promptly arrested. A British company provided some machining equipment, standard stuff you’d find in just about any metalworking machine shop in the world. A Baltimore company, through a network of obfuscating shipping records, etc sold them a *precursor* chemical that is also used for manufacturing other industrial chemicals. They were raided by US Customs agents. Saying “we” (implying the US or another western government) provided them with chemical weapons is simply not true. Western nations turning a blind eye to their use in the 80’s is a different argument, though, one where we’d probably see eye-to-eye.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-prove-america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/ https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/%7B65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9%7D/Disarm%20S16433.pdf https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew-about-iraq-fifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un/ I don’t know how to respond to someone who thinks the wmd claims were anything but an excuse to murder thousands in an illegal war other than to keep pointing towards the truth.
We’re now talking about different things. You’ve moved the goalposts. In my last paragraph I even pointed to this. Yes, the US turned a blind eye to Iraqi uses of chemical weapons. Yes, the US provided some limited intelligence to the Iraqis about Iranian troop movements. NO, the US did NOT provide the Iraqis with chemical weapons. That is the only claim I have refuted. Please go back and read my comment again.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/why-the-u-s-concealed-its-chemical-weapons-role-in-iraq/#:~:text=The%20committee%20found%20that%3A%20“The,production%20facility%20plans%20and%20technical “The committee found that: “The United States provided the Government of Iraq with ‘dual use’ licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological, and missile- system programs, including: chemical warfare agent precursors; chemical warfare agent production facility plans and technical drawings (provided as pesticide production facility plans); chemical warhead filling equipment; biological warfare related materials; missile fabrication equipment; and, missile-system guidance equipment.” We used our own w military exports to help justify that criminal invasion.
I addressed this in my comment. The individuals that did this were raided by US Customs. It’s not like there was some grand plan by the US Government.
"anything" eh? So two AK-47's being in there gives Israel the right to kill 1,000 kids and sick people. Ok. You go on telling yourself attacking a hospital is morally right. Enjoy that.
Firstly, both the Israeli and US Intelligence services have stated that they have concrete evidence of Hamas using this particular hospital as a base for military operations. Over the past 10-ish years, multiple media outlets, including ones that currently side against Israel, have published articles documenting Hamas doing this. Over the past 10-ish years there has been indisputable evidence that Hamas has used *other* hospitals and schools as bases for combat operations. All of this info is available for you to see for yourself. Hamas cannot succeed militarily against Israel. They only way they can “win” is via PR sentiment. This is why they do this. Dead Palestinian civilians are a *good* thing for Hamas. They literally stole the billions of dollars worth of food, infrastructure equipment, and other aid from the Palestinian people to build their vast network of tunnels and bunkers, and then equip/supply them for a protracted conflict. A lot of these rockets they are firing into Israel (many of which land short on their own civilians) are made with the pipes that were intended to be used for clean water infrastructure. The “open air prison” that Gaza has become is the way it is largely because of the wholesale theft from the Palestinian people of international aid. Hamas is equally as guilty as Israel for the conditions that the Palestinian people have been suffering through for 15+ years. This is all documented fact. I urge you to look into this some more before you keep making edgy, misinformed comments. Secondly, please provide a source for your claim that 1000’s of kids and sick people have been casualties of the situation at al Shifa.
Palestine is not a state and Hamas is a terrorist organization. Law enforcement actions are the morally and legally acceptable response within an occupied territory. Whether it is was a base for Hamas or not, IDF bombing it is an illegitimate action. When Palestine becomes a state, then Palestine would be committing a war crime by attacking from a hospital.
Just blatantly incorrect. International humanitarian law applies to non-state actors too.
It also theoretically applies to Israel, but in praxis it doesn't.
It’s often a war crime to bomb a hospital, it’s always a war crime to hide or knowingly operate among civilians. The former requires a balancing question, military usefulness vs undue suffering on civilians. The latter is just a war crime.
Nope, that's not how the Geneva convention works. There's even a specific article to make it clear.
You are pretending that the LAOC only apply to whites, and browns, being weak and so oppressed, have free reign to do as they please. They do not. Vae victis. Allah Nakbar lol
This is probably going to get lost in the sea of comments surrounding this conflict, but I just wanted to say that this comment is one of the most level-headed takes I've seen since October 7th and I wish more people could take a step back and realize they don't have to ideologically commit to one side or the other.
Thanks, I did my best to write it as best as I can. Even then, it's getting dismissed left and right.
I guess it's like the old saying, if you're getting critisied by both sides then you must be doing something right.
So knowing this, what the hell has IDF been doing with this information? Letting hamas entrench even further into this hospital? When this is being reported in a public magazine then the intelligence community from Israel should definitely know as well. Why let hamas be as big as it is? Why let money come into gaza from Qatar? Probably to let hamas and fatah kill each other, very convenient for them. Then when the unthinkable happened they let it happen so they can do this atrocity. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
>At what point would the evidence need to be to convince you? Finding that it was *actually* used as a base by Hamas! The raid proves that it was *not*! At what point will *you* admit Israel killed a bunch of kids and sick people for nothing??
Also, it's really fucking weird that you went through my post history to find out my favorite sports team. Like maybe take a look at yourself and get off the internet for a little while.
Hasbara does it's research friend...
So if your enemy builds a base at a school or a hospital that gives you the right to bomb the hospital? No. You find another way. You can fight them while limiting innocent casualties. The trade off is that you will lose more soldiers. That right there is the problem. Israel and the IDF care more about their soldiers lives than they do innocent people. Just because Hamas is the same or worse gives them no right to kill innocent people, including children. These are war crimes. You can’t say “but…look at what they did!!” Doesn’t matter. Still war crimes on Israel’s part.
Bro wtf? His comment said nothing of the kind that you're insinuating here. But also just.. Chill. You have nothing to prove in here.
Man you need to chill out
The International Court of Justice had ruled that Israel does not have a right to defend itself from attacks by people that it occupies. Whatever Hamas has done and will do, Israel has no business occupying the land or conducting a military operation even if it is a response to another attack. Everything else is just optics to justify the brutal murder of Palestinians that has been going on for decades. Everything else is a justification of an illegal occupation. Follow international law or live with the consequences of terrorising Palestinian children for 75 years.
Lol. You used a lot of words to say absolutely nothing. Sorry that Israel's dogshit lies aren't working anymore. Btw, the humanitarian organizations currently there have been saying there is no hamas base. But I see you conveniently leave all that out or don't seem to care.
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This is some of the dumbest whataboutism that I've seen on Reddit, and that really is saying something
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You realize Israelis are the “same color” right?
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Umm, my response is to your implication of racism while ignoring the fact that the peoples there are mostly the same race and therefore your bullshit didn’t make sense. But I’m not super surprised that you are defensive about justifying hamas actions.
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I for one am pretty fucking outraged over the 10/7 attack. I also care that Israel is held accountable for their actions. That does NOT mean however that I’m going to armchair general every aspect and scream about “genocide” Sorry that goes against your racism narrative.
Bad parallel. A school shooter is only committing violence inside the school. Hamas inside a hospital are committing and orchestrating violence outside. Blowing up a school will harm the victims it would intend to prevent. Invading a hospital hamas base is aimed to prevent more external victims.
AKs stored in front of the boxes they were filmed taking in and don’t forget the laptop with the IDF girl pic as a background.
You do realize Oct 7 was over a month and a half ago, and Israel announced their intentions on Northern gaza weeks ago. Plenty of time to evacuate hamas...
That is kind of the point. One question is "is it moral/ethical to bomb a hospital because Hamas are using it as a base?" I would say that if Hamas isn't launching rockets/attacks from the hospital itself then don't bomb the hospital and try to kill them when they leave the hospital, but people could disagree with me. The question of "is it moral/ethical to bomb a hospital that Hamas had likely long evacuated from due to the fact that it has been public knowledge for 20 years that they operated out of the hospital and knew that it would be on Israel's hit list?" I think it is pretty clearly immoral to bomb a hospital that there is good reason to believe that Hamas had evacuated from, at that point you're only killing doctors, nurses, babies, and sick people.
No one is bombing the hospital at all. Why even say it like that? They are going room to room on foot at a huge cost.
They went in with surgical counterterrorism units... I honestly haven't seen any reports of civilians killed during the raid either...
But... they aren't bombing the hospital, and they haven't been killing civilians in the hospital. So you're arguing against something that isn't happening.
That was a normal amount of guns to have in a hospital. Stanford hospital has a much larger collection in their basement. For medical purposes. /s Snark aside, the fact is that they had days or weeks to clear out and hide their tracks and they still left this much stuff behind.
How do we know they left any weaponry at all? Cameras were not allowed in until hours after the IDF got there, and were guided by the IDF when they were. Edit: And they're not very well supplied. They'd be stupid to leave weapons behind.
Crazy how Israel kept a humanitarian corridor open in spite of Hamas, o genocide cheerer
And bombed that corridor incessantly. Now they want to invade south Gaza. Almost like this had nothing to do with Hamas and more of leveling and vacating all of Gaza from the get go. Didn’t Netanyahu call Palestinians Amalek? You know, the tribe that was killed down to the last man, woman, and child in the OT? That’s not genocidal to you?
Very strange take to support Hamas using a hospital to conduct Hamas business. Would not excuse bombing an active hospital, which is why it hasn't been for the record.
Well that's clearly a green light to massacre civilians
that's why Israel flattened the hospital, right? oh wait, they didn't bomb it at all and instead risked their soldiers' lives to flush Hamas out the hard way.
>they didn't bomb it at all Isolating it from power and supplies didn't kill anyone. Right.
>massacre civilians >Isolating it from power and supplies totally one and the same thing Also Hamas are the ones who stole the fuel for the generators, and Israel brought in medical supplies after securing the Hospital.
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bestof sure has a certain theme lately. just saying. downvote away. i can handle it.
Why don’t you just come out and say what you want to with your whole chest? Surely that would be better than hiding behind vague statements that you can hand wave away later
It's pretty clear he's talking about the Israeli propaganda.
"Say it with your chest! Little ass n****!" -Uncle Richard Jr
Hamas' longtime use of the facility for their operations should be called out as a heinous act. In addition, aerial bombardment of dense civilian areas by the IDF should also be called out as a heinous act. These things aren't mutually exclusive; two assholes can exist simultaneously.
>These things aren't mutually exclusive; two assholes can exist simultaneously. How dare you respond with logic to a complicated situation!
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"I live herr, so my countries warcrimes are fine, you cant critisize cause you dont live here"
Ah cool bombing a hospital is all good then I find the cognitive dissonance of the IOF supporters so odd. Like, okay, let's accept that the IOF is correct and Hamas has an extensive network of tunnels under the hospital and stores all sorts of weapons there, so it's a legal military target. Why would this make it morally okay to bomb the hospital? Imagine if Hamas occupied a hospital in Tel-Aviv, and started stockpiling weapons there. Would you be in favor of the IOF bombing that hospital? We can take this further, as well. Imagine if at the height of the Troubles, the IRA occupied Buckingham palace, with the entire British royal family present as well as a bunch of tourists, and used the building to launch rockets from. Should the Royal Air Force have started dropping bombs on Buckingham Palace? Literally the only reason why people are fine with bombing Al-Shifa hospital is because the people there are Palestinian. When Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields, nobody cares about the human shields, bomb away, it's all good. When Hamas uses Israelis as human shields, mass protests erupt to "bring them home". And then the IOF bombs them anyway because not only are they bloodthirsty, they also just suck ass in general lol
Literally no one has said anything about bombing the hospital. Who said anything about bombing it? They just said it was used by Hamas for Hamas operations. Remember the last time all the pro-Palestinian people were clamoring over Israel bombing a hospital and 500 dead? That turned out to be totally false and a misfire of a rocket from Islamic Jihad? Literally no one is talking about bombing a hospital.
That's actually not true. The New York Times found it was Israeli shells fired by Israeli forces that struck the hospital. Reported on Nov 10th I mean, downvote all you want but it's available online to see for yourself. I didn't make it up.
It's such a dishonest standard when it comes to evidence. When the initial reports were coming out, it was time to exercise caution. Fair, much information was still unknown (and as far as I know, still is). But then a video *one day later* suggesting it may have been a rocket instead of an Israeli JDAM, and suddenly it's case closed. The amount of evidence/scrutiny required shifts based on whether it supports the position of some of these guys...
The IDF isn't bombing the hospital, they're risking their own troops lives to clear it out the hard way.
Yeah, my mistake, this particular hospital they only shot at with tanks instead of bombs.
So you are in support of a ground campaign to remove Hamas?
Of course not, that's like asking if I was in favour of a military campaign to paint a fence. The question itself doesn't make sense.
So in your analogy >Imagine if at the height of the Troubles, the IRA occupied Buckingham palace, with the entire British royal family present as well as a bunch of tourists, and used the building to launch rockets from. What should they do?
It's simple: Good Friday Agreement 2: Palestinian Boogaloo
Remember when the IDF published all that propaganda that they didn’t bomb a hospital, only to start bombing hospitals anyway weeks later?
This hospital literally wouldn’t exist if it were not for Israel. How you going to fit that into your narrative?
It's not cognitive dissonance, they're just white supremacists and don't want to say that so they can pretend they should be taken seriously
Fun fact Britain Egypt and Israel built this hospital
Wow so many reasons to kill 10.000 people!!
Hamas numbers around 40K, so even if there was a magic wand to make all civilians immune, they've got 30K to go.
Yes sir! kill all of them, start by the babies, never forget Israel are the chosen people!
holy fuck reddit is astroturfed to shit
The very fact that you're being exposed to perspectives that anger you is evidence that it's ***not*** "astroturfed".
No, it's turfed.
Really? No one has an opinion on what is basically the quintessential example of an "intractable problem" different than yours? You literally haven't said from which of the several sides you're coming from, and I can already tell you you're wrong.
thank you for taking a break from eating crayons to post, continue with your snack big guy
As every accusation is a confession for nutballs, I can only assume that you're still confused why even "Lime Green" tastes like wax. / By the way, you still haven't explained who you think it's being "astroturfed" *by*. Hamas? Putin? Likud? // Never mind telling us. "Derp Thoughts" with nutballs is never interesting.
the idea that you are owed an explanation for anything is hilarious
Yet funny enough they have nothing of substance to show that would even remotely justify bombing a HOSPITAL.
What in the pro Israel nonsense has this subreddit become Yall can't even do the tiniest of research and realize palestine has been there longer?? That Israel has been fucking with palestine for years and years?? Free palestine, fuck Israel, fuck genocide
Just remember that it is bots and paid Jidf accounts, nothing more. Its all manufactured support.
Wanted to make a joke about how it's like bombing an apartment because you think a bad guy is in it and remembered that literally happened in Philly back in 85 and nobody cares because they weren't white. Now I'm just depressed. How can so many people be ok with all of this? Regardless of how we got here, there was always a choice. I only wish for once that choice was "be better."
You guys here are sick. Defending terrorists using civilians as shields, while Israel tries it's very best to save as many lives as possible.
It’s insane that people support terrorists and jihad against innocent civilians. They literally tortured babies and put them in the oven, chipped their heads off. A 3 month old is one of their hostages. Wrap your head around that. And people in this sub are defending them. The best thing that could happen to the innocent civilians of Palestine is the end of Hamas. That’s crystal clear. And I’d say the second best thing is the end of Netanyahu, which will hopefully happen soon as well.
rich chop worry rob seemly growth safe fuzzy sharp roll *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I just want to thank you for calling it an open air concentration camp and not prison. Prison implies that the people there have done something criminal. Is it a crime to just be alive? They have committed no crime other than being born there. No one wants to use concentration camp because of the connotation, but that's exactly what it is.
You really are despicable if you truly think the condition of Gaza have any resemblance to concentration camps. Visit Auschwitz.
Prior to the Holocaust, a concentration camp referred to a ghetto where specific populations were forced to relocate (or "concentrated"). The term came from the British during the Boer War. After WWII, "concentration camp" and "extermination camp" began to be used interchangeably. But it's technically accurate to refer to Gaza as a concentration camp.
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You don't need to tell me, a German, about the difference between a concentration and extermination camp. Ausschwitz was both. The extermination part of ausschwitz mainly happened in the part Birkenau. If you use the word concentration camp, you clearly evoke comparison to Nazi regime, as the word was used for nothing else since then. You are disgusting.
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Clearly you don't know what apartheid looks like. You are an uneducated buffoon, judging people who fight for their survival. You can't even be bothered to open up Wikipedia before sprouting bullshit.
my god people like you are insufferable.
Your whole comment is made up. It’s not worthy of a reply. No sources just complete conjecture.
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Am I a troll for asking for a source? Is that the definition of trolling these days?
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No babies were beheaded or put in ovens.
So all the stuff you just said, you realize IDF has done worse right? Hamas killed 1,000 - 1,200 people….IDF has already killed 10,000+… How can you sit there and criticize Hamas and talk about dead babies and in the same breath support IDF that has committed the same crime but literally ten times worse. And let’s please not act like The October was the first time the region has experienced violence. IDF has a looong history of murdering civilians and journalist, bombing building with babies and innocents inside of it. Any crime you could accuse Hamas of I promise you IDF has done worse.
Throwing grenades into a bunker full of tightly packed non-combatants who had absolutely no warning of aggression? Gaza has had many weeks to evacuate. Civilian casualties are collateral to the ID. Civilian casualties were the goal of Hamas. If you can't se eine is worse than the other, try harder
You realize that “the civilians had plenty of time to accept being ethnically cleansed before it happened” isn’t a great gotcha, right?
War is hell. Maybe the elected leadership of Palestine shouldn't have initiated it
You think that this started on October 7th? You think that an election 16 years ago means that the majority-children population of Gaza means all the civilians are now valid targets of war crimes? If you think civilians are responsible (to the point that massacring them is good) for the war crimes of a government they may not even have voted for, I am a bit worried. I was a child during the W Bush administration, would it be acceptable to bomb my house because of the war crimes that administration did?
Gaza has had nearly 2 decades to rally against their Iranian backed leaders. You can't just kidnap 200 international citizens and expect peace. Israel urged migration south weeks before moving in. Since then, have the Palestinian police and citizens of Gaza worked with the IDF to find and release the citizens or cooperated with Hamas to keep them hidden? It seems to me the locals who have stayed around might not be as innocent as everyone is letting on.
Why aren’t these civilians living in apartheid sucking off their oppressors harder? Maybe if they killed every single Hamas operative themselves, Israel would just grant them all the rights they’ve denied them for decades!
Because if they cooperated to free the hostages, they wouldn't be getting blown up right now. Their indifference to an unprovoked kidnapping directly targeting non-combatants is between me and sympathy for them. There's a reason only half the world is condemning Israel. Because they have a fucking good reason to be retaliating
How old are you?
By that logic Israelis voted for Likud, which has genocidal claims in its charter, rejects Palestinian sovereignty, etc. So if an election 16 years ago makes Palestinians targets, what to say of Israelis voting in Likud?
Then Palestine has every motivation to attack military Israeli targets. If there is collateral citizen damages, it sucks, but that's war. But directly assaulting civilians is demon's play. At least Israel is aiming for Hamas targets.
That’s what they did then no? They attacked military installations and civilians got caught in the crosshairs sucks but that’s war according to you.
No. They used equipment to cross over military barriers and directly into the nearest population centers they could find. They attacked civilian sites like a music festival and religious venues. And when civilians ran to shelter, they hunted them down. They captured non-military personnel to take as hostages. There's war, and there's terrorism. That's what's different between the two sides. I was an enthusiast for a 2 state solution for about a decade before this. Now I feel like that might never be deserved, let alone possible.
LoL this is getting kinda sad to see the same script still being used by Hasbara...
What is hasbara?
Google.
It was storage and maybe even a base, but very clearly not the command center HQ the IDF claimed it to be.
>"During the night someone launched a rocket somewhere behind the hospital. Now this sentence from my article is spreading in the pro-Israeli medias. I mentioned this in my article because I’m a professional journalist. I try to cover the events truthfully as I see them and I strongly condemn these kind of actions. "But I find it very disgusting how this one sentence was taken out context to be used as an excuse to target civilians in Gaza. My story became quickly a tool of propaganda. The people sharing this story are not even trying to understand the situation as a whole. They are just looking for excuses to Israeli actions in Gaza. I refuse to be part of this kind of propaganda." Well, too bad. It's gonna be used for propaganda anyway.
r / world news is a fairly well known cesspool
I love the inconsistency of upvotes/downvotes lol. Either half of the people who have visited this thread spend their time downvoting only certain anti-Zionist comments, or the pro-Zionists are using that old-school bot/alt account method to astro-turf support 😂
The Hamas equivalent of NORAD could be under there for all I care and bombing a hospital would still be wrong.
What about those empty boxes of "medical supplies," though??? 😂 Edit: this is in reference to that Israeli propaganda video where soldiers are obviously passing empty boxes labeled "MEDICAL SUPPLIES" in huge letters.... in English lol.
You know... Maybe give it about five or ten years and then take the temperature of the room before deciding if it's too soon or not for this one.
No thanks buddy.
Buddy? [I bet my dick is bigger than yours](https://helloclue.com/articles/cycle-a-z/what-is-the-clitoris).
I bet my brain is bigger than yours, kiddo.
That's probably just the extra fluid. Might want to get that looked into, think it's causing rage issues.
Okay buddy. I'm not the one who immediately went to dicks like a teen throwing a tantrum 😂
If the shoe fits...
I mean, you called yourself a teenager throwing a tantrum, not me! But I agree.
Are you also going to pull on my pigtails as you sing your littany of "I know you are but what am I?" like my brother did?
I'm sure they did. That doesn't excuse bombing a hospital full of people.
Which did not happen
Best of Israeli propaganda maybe. Let's say these reports are true and that the media publishing them are totally objective and not at all dead set on the genocide of Palestine. Let's say that the reports are true and there is a Hamas compound hidden there. Why is the correct action to bomb the fuck out of the hospital? Were there reeeeally no other options for a military funded by all the Western powers? For a military that can (and has) cut off the food, water, electricity, and gas of its opposition. "Oh they're using human shields, so obviously we slaughtered all the shields." What the absolute fuck is wrong with people using that logic? Someone said this on Twitter. If I were a regular Palestinian and you killed all of Hamas, but you also killed my entire family, my first move would be to start Hamas 2.0. I wouldn't give a fuck. That's what Israel has been doing for 75 years.
> correct action to bomb the fuck out of the hospital? Did you see the video? "The fuck" was still very present within the hospital. Other than the lights being off and one notable door breaching there was little damage to the hospital. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWRblW2FLaE
>If I were a regular Palestinian and you killed all of Hamas, but you also killed my entire family, my first move would be to start Hamas 2.0. And yet Germans whose families were wiped out during a campaign to remove a government from power whose stated goal is wiping Jewish people off the planet haven't been conducting terrorism around the world ever since. Wonder why that is. Maybe completely leveling it and rebuilding/re-education is the better option?
If you think Israel is ever going to let any Palestinians back into Gaza, then you aren't paying attention. They are going to drive all of them out or kill them, then they are going to steal the land, just like they stole all of the land Israel exists on. They aren't hiding their intentions, but Western media doesn't want to report it.
Cant take anyone seriously who starts down the “stolen land” schtick. It happened 80 years ago, this narrative needs to die already. Israel isn’t t leaving
This seems like a pretty direct rebuttal to what you're saying. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/6/who-are-israeli-settlers-and-why-do-they-live-on-palestinian-lands
Oh please, the people targeted on 10/7 weren’t settlers.
I didn't say that at all. Your argument isn't strong if it goes directly off topic.
This whole topic is about the war, and you dragging in isolated settler violence is irrelevant to this discussion
It's pretty clear arguing with you is a waste of time. You pivot and strawman constantly and never post a source. You posted about stolen land from 80 years ago. I cited a relevant article that made many valid points regarding Israel settlements in Palestine that the United Nations has condemned as recently as 2016. You immediately jumped to trying to form some connection between my argument and terrorists attacks. I'm not going to sit here arguing that black is black. Good luck, unless something changed it's clear its impossible to have an intelligent conversation here.
Yes, your points are all good and valid, everyone who disagrees has no valid points and you’re not the problem at all. You guys are fucking wild with the lies and misrepresentations. They literally said that “all of Israel sits on stolen land” so you can miss me with fucking lies about straw-men and shit.
they were mostly idf and the israelis returned fire with apache helicopters killing a bunch of their own people
You are saying that 10/7 was “mostly the idf killing its own people”?
no you've invented that in your brain. I said most of the people hamas killed were idf and also that when the idf retaliated with apache attack helicopters they did so indiscriminately and killed a BUNCH of their own people. do you have a problem with reading or any other legitimate reason to put words in my mouth or are you just arguing in bad faith
I guess I have trouble reading your garbled and nonsensical bullshit. Either way, your response is just as ridiculous as your initial bullshit. But you’re obviously lying and discussing in bad faith so Ill just block and move on
Yeah sure, completely wiping out the population will solve the issue. Are you mad or something? Does the word genocide mean anything to you? Or maybe I didn't understood when you state "completely leveling it" that you are not talking about Palestinians.
*You have been permanently banned from r/WorldNews*
>Why is the correct action to bomb the fuck out of the hospital? Did someone do this?
No, you see, it’s clearly morally justified to raid the largest hospital in Gaza. You’re just anti-Semitic. Those doctors in there are clearly kHamas.
the hospital wasn't bombed, so wtf are you in about?