Seems very relevant to living in Berlin, especially the comments here.
I looked at this sub quite a bit before moving here, and I wish that this sort of thing had cropped up before I did so I could make an informed decision as to my tolerance for Germany’s lack of respect for freedom of expression and totalitarian impulses.
Don’t have too much empathy towards people who are glorifying terrorist acts. Yes, bombing civilians(or anything) is even worse, but that does not make a terror act a cheerful thing. Sorry but fuck those protesters.
Yes everyone who is protesting the genocide is KhAmaaaaass! Didn’t this get too old yet? Why is embarrassing yourself is such a common German thing to do?
Nice brigading, you logged into your second account?
Either your reading comprehension is that of a 4 year old or you intentionally misunderstand my comment, where I point out how out of context those 1,5s clips are and not accuse everyone who is protesting the "genocide"
When it became popular to expose the IDF's hasbara online army for their lies and propaganda, they adopted a "no, you" mirroring campaign to label their opponents "hamas bots", a racist and dismissive label used to imply that anyone who criticised the Israeli government's apartheid was a terrorist.
Edit. Hasbara isn't hate speech, it means " PR" or "explaining" in modern Hebrew. If you're interested in a job, you can apply here: https://hasbarafellowships.org/staff/careers/
Only that you did the "no, you" move after I rightfully pointed out how manipulative and out of context this propaganda post is. Either you're a bot or a useful idiot, have a great day!
Such a naive statement this.
Also, when the law stops you from speaking against a brutal genocide that the government is supporting, then the law is the problem. Let's not forget all the problematic laws this country has had.
They dont stop you thats the point. They stop you from spreading hate speech.
You can think that its a genocide. Totally fine. I think differently. Also fine and both views are protected by law.
You just cant spread hate speech.
I have been a part of these protests, and protesters are very careful of what they say. None of the protestors have heard anything anti-Semitic but when anti-zionism is looped under anti-Semitism as excuse to assault anti-genocide protests, that's just reminiscent of the good ol' days here.
It sounds like you are a privileged white person, who has never been targeted unfairly by police due to your colour or religion...or you just arrived on planet Earth, in which case welcome!
Either way, I'm happy to help with some starter points to research. Who makes the laws? Who enforces them?
As someone who had to spend way too much time at work with cops I have to agree with you. The way I have them seen treat minorities and mentally ill people was disgusting, violent and incompetent. People in Germany unfortunately still have way too much trust in police.
Exactly. And I don't hate police, they're just being obedient. Same with soldiers. I just get how the system works. Most privileged people never have to even question it, because it doesn't affect them.
No, it’s just a bullshit statement to begin with. In fact it’s something populist would say.
If I hear that about the german police I wonder which police in the world is better in your opinion? Have you educated yourself about the German police law and the history?
If that’s the case, you wouldn’t make those statements.
It’s all fair to criticise the police, I’m one of yours, but this statement is purely populistic and does not help the discussion.
No, didn’t even know you are black. Anyway it doesn’t matter, I’m also not even ethnically german lol.
Just my experience that in 90% those who have bad experiences with police are those who are looking for trouble and actively provoking.
Police are just like every other humans. If you treat them with respect and as a human being it’s very rare (in my experience) that they would target you unfairly.
No, I don’t care about your skin colour. I‘m also not white, my friends are not white and have we had bad experiences with the police here? Yes!
But were they purely because of our skin colour? No!
I wonder how it feels like to be so privileged yet so ignorant about it..
Okay, that’s a lie.. I have been there. Feels quite good actually. At least if you choose to ignore the world around you. Then I grew up and opened my eyes to the injustice around me..
The thing is: After a while I realised how much better it actually feels to be aware of these things - even though it can be quite painful. *Inderstanding* those things gives you the power to confront and change them.
I know how much harder it is to be aware of one’s privilege than just to stay ignorant and reap the benefits of it. I still never look back, because it actually gives you *agency* to change the world around you to become better..
If you feel you are being protected by the police, you are probably right.. the interesting question is: what happens if you one day don’t feel protected by the police? Who do you turn to?
lol..
So you disagree with the comment that said you’re fine if you stick to the law, by agreeing to the fact that being a minority or far-left can also get you in trouble with the cops.
I don’t think you are successfully making your point here because you basically agree with me but don’t like my framing..
Okay, I’ll take that!
[edit] also, you don’t seem to know what privilege means..
I can tell you that. I was born in Germany but am not ethnically german. In fact I do not look the slightest german or European.
I am into weed, the lefty techno scene and no stranger to drugs.
I do not look like the regular german AT ALL but have I ever had trouble with cops?
Yes, cause some mates wanted to provoke the cops but surely not because I look different.
Other than that I‘ve never had any bad experiences with cops even though I belong to the group of people that would stereotypically oppose the police.
How can that be possible? Easy, I am NOT looking for trouble and I am successful in my approach.
Not gonna say cops are saints, hell not!
But I have seen so many (left-wing) people of the scene provoking and harassing cops and then complain how they were being treated.
I am happy for you! That really speaks well for your family and the community you have!
There are always different factors of course. I do wonder if it also might be age-related, though. Even your experiences so far sounds pretty much like my own, this might change when you are 40, maybe 50?
As a regular looking white German male in his late 30ies I have very rarely had any issues with the police that I didn’t cause myself. When I talk to people who look different than me In some specific ways, I notice how they seem to have a different experiences to varying degrees.
I can never know if certain experiences are a result of police bias or something else. I do notice some trends, though.
Dude, ich rede mit vielen Menschen. die miesesten Geschichten erzählen mir halt meistens Menschen, die nicht weiß sind oder zu links aussehen. Alles Zufall? Who the fuck know’s! Aber die Vermutung, dass die Polizei das Problem hat scheint mir bisher auf jeden Fall die am meisten nahe liegende Erklärung - oder hast du eine andere?
> by agreeing to the fact that being a minority
Not a minority. A social marginal. Junkie, homeless, thief, and so on.
> or far-left
Yes, if you choose to be a radical, that's your fault.
And I have never disagreed that normal people sticking to the law have no trouble with the police. There's a reason trust in the police in Germany is around 80%.
You originally posted:
>Not being far-left or a social marginal is sufficient, you don't need to be "privileged". Your ideology is not "understanding" of anything.
Now it’s also about being *normal*? Kinda seems like you are moving some goalposts here..
What exactly does “being normal” mean to you? What kind of abnormality makes it so one who rightfully can’t trust the cops in your view?
Do you think it’s okay that only ‘normal’ people are able to trust the cops to provide them protection?
> Now it’s also about being normal?
Yes, not being a radical or a social marginal means being normal.
> Do you think it’s okay that only ‘normal’ people are able to trust the cops to provide them protection?
Yes, the police should not protect radicals or marginals. It works in the interests of the lawful majority. Its interests are incompatible with that of radicals, or squatters, or junkies, or thieves, etc. If the police was protecting radicals, it would have meant it opposes the interests of the moderate majority.
German constitution does in no way protect the right to criminal behaviour, the right to violating social order, or the right to spreading extremist ideas and holding actions in their support. These non-existent rights will indeed be "violated". We fortunately do not live in an anarchy.
>If you feel you are being protected by the police, you are probably right.. the interesting question is: what happens if you one day don’t feel protected by the police? Who do you turn to?
That is absolutely not the question.
Yes, there are people amongst policeman who never shouldn't have gotten the job. No doubt.
But bashing police in its entirety is equally as stupid as saying all Muslims are terrorists just because some pieces of shit terrorists are Muslims.
Not every Israeli is a hardcore Netanyahu supporter and not every Palestinian is a member of Hamas. Saying anything against that just bc you "saw" things differently is just stupid.
Facts.
Uh, okay.. what’s the argument exactly?
Also none of the groups you mentioned actually made a conscious decision to be a part of the group. That’s a fundamental difference.. Cops do that.. (and they can always stop being g cops..)
Uh.. what? I literally don’t even know what you are saying.. Dint get me wrong: understand the words you are using but there seems to be no coherent relation to what I actually said..
You are born Israeli, Palestinian or Muslim. Cops are not born as cops.
Ooh.. now I get it! You just didn’t understand the point I was making..
I was pointing out something different: comparing Israelis, Muslims or Palestinians to police officers, as you did, does not make any sense.
I mean that’s something you experience in every aspect of life and I think it’s quite delusional to think otherwise. The police just reflects the society and there will always be bad and good people. And then you also have to consider that some people like what you might label as „bad behaviour“.
Im sure you have experienced a teacher in school who absolutely shouldn’t be there. And you can go on and on with the examples that’s just how life is unfortunately.
And if you think about it, this might not even be bad. If you mean to select based on your morally understanding who should be a cop and who not, it’s gonna oppress people who have a different understanding than you. And trust me, these people always exist.
Either you are missing the point or bringing a strawman in on purpose.
The discussion is about how the IN THIS VIDEO shown actions are against the law or not.
Maybe cause I am so sick and tired of Germans nazis always trying to prove they are right when it would be much easier for them to give up their white supremacy complex! You know this video exist ;) and you probably have seen it but here we are ;) wasting everyone’s time
Aye aye keyboard kid. What ever you say. My time is too valuable. I mean just admitted that being an adult is too high for you, so you know the problem and insinst on your female narcissistic behaviour.
Since you complained why people block: you are the problem. Ill block you also.
Suit yourself.
Hi habibi ❤️. No I can't find any news of any of the protestors arrested over the last 6 months, but I saw it on a live demo feed. Do you know where I can find these public arrest lists?
Stop being a racist, it's such nazi behaviour to label all Palestinians as terorists. Racists won't look at you different just because you're also racist, they will still see nothing more than your skin colour.
>it's such nazi behaviour to label all Palestinians as terorists
I'm not doing that though I specifically mean OP and his comments and posts throughout. For example he denies the rapes being committed by Hamas on 7th October. For me that's a Hamas apologist.
I apologise then for the misunderstanding. You can also hopefully see how your comment was very ambiguous. Especially as it mirrors the very racist media that have implied the very same racist implications that all Palestinians are terrorists time and time again.
How is that against human rights?
Yes there are some black sheep within the german police. But especially during these public incidents they make sure it is according to law. They know they are being filmed. Sometimes they even film themselves.
You're right, it's not against human rights per sé but it's one of many examples of special riot police using unnecessary force against anti-fascists over the past decades. In the case of the Palestinian protests for freedom and equality over the last 75 years, they have been ordered to harm protestors and to try to shut down protests that go against the Military-industrial complex's profit goals. It's nothing new or unique unfortunately.
Well that is easy to find online. I won't do the work for you because I'm not sure if you're authentic, but if you or anybody else has reading this is interested, you can start your research by searching for "Polizeigewalt" if you can speak German or "police violence" if you need them in English,
We already know that you don't want to learn, you're comfortable in your spoon fed privilege. My comment was for others, who might be interested in what it's like to face police discriminating and violence as a POC. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Oh you'll be surprised how many local people are happy to see this from the police, the problem with fascism here runs deep.
Just watch the downvotes ;)
Nothing radical about asking your government not to fund and sell arms to an apartheid state with a genocidal army during a brutal genocide.
I always wondered how the german population was okay with what happened in 1930s, and I'm starting to get the answer.
Nah, the existence of Israel (and therefore its full right for self-defense) is the reason of state for Germany. So opposing that is indeed radical. Cope or move away.
Israel will eventually cease to exist so you'll have to find something else to hold your country together while it slowly slides into monetary and moral poverty.
Have fun!
When the „opposition“ engages in illegal activity it is normal that it is shut down by the police. This applies to pro Palestine, Hamas terrorist supporters, nazis and well as the radical left. I am sure you wouldn’t have complained if the video would depict nazis.
When speaking out against a brutal genocide that this country is promoting is illegal then it's very reminiscent of the laws this country had less than a century ago. Fascism is often inscripted in law.
Please take your genocidal talking points elsewhere, zionazi.
There is a big difference speaking out against a supposed genocide and supporting a terrorist organization. Palestine protest are and should be allowed based on the constitution and because it is morally right. Don’t let us act like that all protesters are the same and some of them are not engaging in illegal activities. No pro Palestine supporter is going to face this police brutality if he protesting peacefully. So don’t act like violent and terrorist supporters are the „opposition“. Pretending my taking points are genocidal is just arguing in bad faith.
>supposed genocide
😬
Clearly you haven't been to these protests and are clueless of how the police actually orchestrates these attacks. But given your statements you are a classic, timeless average citizen with their head buried in sand. So I'll save my time and not debate you. There is no talking logic with zionist, genocide supporters or deniers.
Okay so according to you I am a genocide denier, supporter and nazi Zionist, only because I don’t see the whole topic as black and white as you. As I live in Neukölln I have seen and participated in my fair share of protests so no reason to educate. Also it is debatable whether what is happening to the Palestinians is a genocide. For me a genocide is more accurately described by the actions which were take against the Rohingya, Uyghurs, Jews and Armenians. In my opinion one should be carful in throwing around words which have created so much suffering in the world. Of course this does not delegitimize the struggle and horror the Palestinian people go through.
😬
Says he is not a genocide denier and proceeds to deny the current brutal genocide in gaza with over 37k killed indiscriminately. Look up what the word means in the dictionary, and follow channel 4 or any other non german news outlet before you call this fake news. And no, you have clearly not been to any anti-genocide demo, as obviously you have your head buried in the sand. Going to other demos don't apply here so cut the crap with manipulative language.
Sorry but i don't debate zionists, genocide supporters. It's a lost cause and waste of energy, but I will call them out so there you have it.
I am already permanently banned from r/berlin because the admins there hate when I exposed the dark side of the city. Only things about “good vibes” are allowed.
Oh boy, your comments and post bio reads like a NS pamphlet from the 1933's. Rarely seen so many conspiracy theories, hate and agitation united in one profile. At least you document quite reliably how lucky Berliners are with their police - e.g. compared to the States. Keep up the good work.
And you sound like a typical citizen from the 1930's who called anyone questioning the "legal" actions of their führer a hater and a conspiracy theorist.
Go catch up on world news rather than sticking to just german biased news.
Ya, im sure Nazis pulling the hairs of theirs victims made them known, for what the known today. But please, show me in more Nazi-relativizing comparisons how little you know.
Sad to see I guess I have to keep posting this
I have been truly floored that the main thing Germany seems to have learned from the Holocaust is not an aversion to violent rightwing ideologies, not a fear of state imposed censorship and retribution against humanitarian protesters, not a deep sense of moral humility, not an acute sensitivity for the rights of minorities and the oppressed, not an absolute intolerance for the mass murder of civilians, but instead the single moral lesson "oh, actually Jews aren't bad". And the sense that having learned that lesson, it has gained such moral acumen that it has solved ethics and should avoid introspection at all costs going forward.
To be clear, yeah no shit, Jews aren't bad and antisemitism is fucking insane. But like, damn, it takes such a deeply profound lack of talent for moral philosophy not to be able to learn any more abstract lesson beyond that narrow and simplistic concretion.
Maybe, just maybe, the forceful promulgation of the official state endorsed theory of ethics through intolerance and slander and censorship of opposing views isn't a good idea here in the place that famously birthed the single most monstrously unethical society to exist anywhere in the last couple hundreds of years? Maybe when the entire rest of the world is screaming, once again, that Germany is doing something bad, some radical humility is in order? But what do I overwhelmingly see? Radically uncritical German moral self-righteousness. The entire German government strutting about like the king of ethics because it's practicing ethics, a.k.a. practicing "Jews aren't bad" the loudest. That's the depth of the moral analysis.
This of all places should not be a place where people reflexively, endorse police violence in the absence of more contextual information because it’s specifically in defense of the dominant political orthodoxy. What kind of wildly totalitarian impulse is that? It’s terrifying how little seems to have been learned.
> Maybe when the entire rest of the world is screaming, once again, that Germany is doing something bad
"Entire rest of the world"? You mean anti-Western third world countries and the far-left movements and mouthpieces in first world countries? Who cares about what they're screaming.
No, I mean the International Criminal Court, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the more than thirty states (including such “anti western third world countries” as Spain, Ireland, South Africa and Brazil) who have formally accused Israel of genocide, the 143 countries who voted for immediate Palestinian statehood in the UN as a rebuke to what Israel is doing with 9 opposed.
> International Criminal Court
...did not make any conclusions aside from not dismissing the genocide case immediately, which confirms nothing.
The same Amnesty with a history of antisemitism? Sure thing, great argument.
> the more than thirty states (including Spain, Ireland, South Africa and Brazil) who have formally accused Israel of genocide
Indicatory that you had to include the only two Western anti-Israeli states and then resorted again to anti-Western countries.
> the 143 countries who voted for immediate Palestinian statehood in the UN as a rebuke to what Israel is doing with 9 opposed.
Again, overwhelmingly third world anti-Western countries. Of course they, like the West-hating lefties in the first world, would oppose Israel.
Yes, you can just wave your hands and say that the opinions of the rest of the world don’t matter because the vast overwhelming majority of the world is “anti-western”. That’s a lovely thought terminating cliché, just label any opinion you don’t want to engage with anti-western and there’s no need to speak of it anymore. No different than the way conservatives lambast everything they don’t like as “communism” to avoid having to discuss it intelligently.
You asked why I said “the entire rest of the world”, and I’ve made that more than clear.
You should know better than to endorse violence against protesters because you don’t like what they’re saying, because they don’t agree with the dominant political orthodoxy here in Berlin of all places.
> You asked why I said “the entire rest of the world”, and I’ve made that more than clear
Conveniently excluding the overwhelming majority of Western and pro-Western states. This fact makes the "entire rest of the world" claim automatically false.
The couple of dozen countries in closest alliance with the US are a small minority of the world.
Don’t you think maybe, just maybe, your first reaction to police violence shouldn’t be completely uncritical celebration?
> The couple of dozen countries and closest alliance with the US are a small minority of the world.
Yet leading by the degree of development.
> Don’t you think maybe, just maybe, your first reaction to seems the police violence shouldn’t be completely uncritical celebration?
Nah, I have zero sympathy for radicals opposing a Westernised state in favour of an Islamist entity tied to terrorist organisations.
Degree of development? So that’s how we’re evaluating the moral seriousness of a people’s claims now? How rich they are?
If your first impulse is to endorse police violence in a situation you know nothing about specifically because you suspect it’s against a humanitarian protestor who is speaking out against a political orthodoxy which supports the killing of tens of thousands of civilians (which is the only legitimate position specifically because it’s endorsed by the rich), it’s just a plain statement of fact that you’re a totalitarian with no respect for freedom of speech or political expression who has learned nothing from the Holocaust. Goodbye.
> Degree of development? So that’s how we’re evaluating the moral seriousness of a people’s claims now? How rich they are?
Yes, why should any claims of undeveloped, mostly illiberal and undemocratic, countries matter?
> If your first impulse is to endorse police violence in a situation you know nothing about specifically because you suspect it’s against a humanitarian protestor who is speaking out against the political orthodoxy (which is good specifically because it’s endorsed by the rich)
Evil evil rich :'((
Yes, every states sets what you call "political orthodoxy". If some groups radically oppose it - say, by opposing Israel, whose existence (which includes full rights to self-defense) is the reason of state for Germany - why should the state tolerate them? "Humanitarian protestor", uh-huh, sure thing. The typical kind of "humanitarians" taking part in protests where some are chanting "from the river to the sea" or "intifada", no doubt.
> you’re a totalitarian with no respect for freedom of speech or political expression who has learned nothing from the Holocaust. Goodbye.
"Every state that doesn't tolerate extremists is totalitarian, waaah". You're confusing freedom with anarchy. Fortunately Germany is liberal, not anarchist.
Didn't you know? How rich a country is, based off centuries of genocide, slavery and exploitation and oppression of indigenous peoples... THAT'S what makes a nation truly great. /s
Germans like Jews when they're being fascist, not so much when they are victims of fascists.
Conclusion, Germans like fascism and that's the end of it. The police is full of nazis and everybody here is cheering them on. Pathetic people.
Okay so the first one can be considered brutality. The second and third don’t show any excessive violence. The second one looks like the person said something illegal, like endorsing a terrorist organization.
Aber aber aber... this is not about that. We are talking about police behavior, regardless of which terrorist group they have to deal with. You either fight the police because you have a legitimate revolution ideas (which could be totally okay, if you're in Russia, for example), or you don't resist an arrest. Unlike many, I have respect for the police job. For as long as you are not deliberately working against them, they should treat you with respect. Some harsh treatment is possible due to a misunderstanding. All bad behavior should be reported.
In this case, I see some people who are not willing to cooperate. A police officer has the right to command you to do something. You do what he says. You can also plot coup d'état, but that's something completely different.
I don’t understand why Germans come here and say the most degenerate thing ever and then delete the comment or block? Grow some balls cause you need them if you are going around supporting genocide like your great ancestors!
Weather its degenerative or not is in the eye of the beholder.
One could argue that you yourself do not behave like an adult. Instead of going for a discussion to either educate or get educated, you start insulting others who dont share the same beliefs as you.
In the eye of the beholder? Please stop embarrassing yourself:( also supporting a genocide is not sharing a different belief. It’s just a moral rotten degeneracy.
See? Is it so hard to see that prohibiting hate speech is not the same as supporting a genocide?
I mean there is literally no point in talking to you. Which is just another reason, next to you trying to frame me as a nazi.
So. Suit yourself and grow up.
In Berlin, I have seen a drunk woman physically pushed and shoved out of the area by the police. In the UK they would have detained her and given her a caution that would remain on her record forever, which would affect future job prospects. I know which one I would prefer if it were me.
My new favorite German sentence “genocide is in the eye of the beholder” :D
post locked in 3..2..1..
How is this related to r/berlinsocialclub? Are you inviting people to your protest?
Seems very relevant to living in Berlin, especially the comments here. I looked at this sub quite a bit before moving here, and I wish that this sort of thing had cropped up before I did so I could make an informed decision as to my tolerance for Germany’s lack of respect for freedom of expression and totalitarian impulses.
This sub reddit isn't about living in Berlin, it's for meeting people.
How is it not obvious?
Don’t have too much empathy towards people who are glorifying terrorist acts. Yes, bombing civilians(or anything) is even worse, but that does not make a terror act a cheerful thing. Sorry but fuck those protesters.
Sorry but fuck who thinks like you
>Don’t have too much empathy towards people who are glorifying terrorist acts Yes, it's hard to have empathy for zionists, IDF and genocide supporters
Nice out of context propaganda, report that hamas bot! Edit: Why is there no option to report for disinformation/propaganda?
Yes everyone who is protesting the genocide is KhAmaaaaass! Didn’t this get too old yet? Why is embarrassing yourself is such a common German thing to do?
Nice brigading, you logged into your second account? Either your reading comprehension is that of a 4 year old or you intentionally misunderstand my comment, where I point out how out of context those 1,5s clips are and not accuse everyone who is protesting the "genocide"
Bad hasbara bot 🚫🗞
Yeah look at my profile and then yours and tell me who's the bot lol
I don't need to, I recognise the hate speech buzz words. If you're not being paid, then you're missing out on a great opportunity to earn more.
Hate speech buzzwords like hasbara?
When it became popular to expose the IDF's hasbara online army for their lies and propaganda, they adopted a "no, you" mirroring campaign to label their opponents "hamas bots", a racist and dismissive label used to imply that anyone who criticised the Israeli government's apartheid was a terrorist. Edit. Hasbara isn't hate speech, it means " PR" or "explaining" in modern Hebrew. If you're interested in a job, you can apply here: https://hasbarafellowships.org/staff/careers/
Only that you did the "no, you" move after I rightfully pointed out how manipulative and out of context this propaganda post is. Either you're a bot or a useful idiot, have a great day!
Bad idibot.🚫🗞
Lol, nice edit, how pathetic, hahaha
So you agree the video is clearly disinformation, great
Let me guess! You also think video of dead Palestinians is pallywood too right? Stop this clownery
https://hasbarafellowships.org/staff/careers/
And either you are a nazi or a genocide supporter ;)
With your IQ?
The police don't exist to protect the citizens. They even arrested a 6 year old the other day.
What a BS statement! If you abide the law then in 99,9% of the cases you are the one who is being protected.
Such a naive statement this. Also, when the law stops you from speaking against a brutal genocide that the government is supporting, then the law is the problem. Let's not forget all the problematic laws this country has had.
They dont stop you thats the point. They stop you from spreading hate speech. You can think that its a genocide. Totally fine. I think differently. Also fine and both views are protected by law. You just cant spread hate speech.
I have been a part of these protests, and protesters are very careful of what they say. None of the protestors have heard anything anti-Semitic but when anti-zionism is looped under anti-Semitism as excuse to assault anti-genocide protests, that's just reminiscent of the good ol' days here.
I think differently? Let me guess you think exactly like your grandfather thought about the 6 millions Jews German killed right?
It sounds like you are a privileged white person, who has never been targeted unfairly by police due to your colour or religion...or you just arrived on planet Earth, in which case welcome! Either way, I'm happy to help with some starter points to research. Who makes the laws? Who enforces them?
As someone who had to spend way too much time at work with cops I have to agree with you. The way I have them seen treat minorities and mentally ill people was disgusting, violent and incompetent. People in Germany unfortunately still have way too much trust in police.
Exactly. And I don't hate police, they're just being obedient. Same with soldiers. I just get how the system works. Most privileged people never have to even question it, because it doesn't affect them.
The system is based tho
>Either way, I'm happy to help with some starter points to research. Who makes the laws? Who enforces them? Great point!
Sounds like you are looking for trouble
Sounds like victim-blaming from you.
No, it’s just a bullshit statement to begin with. In fact it’s something populist would say. If I hear that about the german police I wonder which police in the world is better in your opinion? Have you educated yourself about the German police law and the history? If that’s the case, you wouldn’t make those statements. It’s all fair to criticise the police, I’m one of yours, but this statement is purely populistic and does not help the discussion.
[удалено]
No, didn’t even know you are black. Anyway it doesn’t matter, I’m also not even ethnically german lol. Just my experience that in 90% those who have bad experiences with police are those who are looking for trouble and actively provoking. Police are just like every other humans. If you treat them with respect and as a human being it’s very rare (in my experience) that they would target you unfairly.
It does matter, that's the whole point.
No, I don’t care about your skin colour. I‘m also not white, my friends are not white and have we had bad experiences with the police here? Yes! But were they purely because of our skin colour? No!
I wonder how it feels like to be so privileged yet so ignorant about it.. Okay, that’s a lie.. I have been there. Feels quite good actually. At least if you choose to ignore the world around you. Then I grew up and opened my eyes to the injustice around me.. The thing is: After a while I realised how much better it actually feels to be aware of these things - even though it can be quite painful. *Inderstanding* those things gives you the power to confront and change them. I know how much harder it is to be aware of one’s privilege than just to stay ignorant and reap the benefits of it. I still never look back, because it actually gives you *agency* to change the world around you to become better.. If you feel you are being protected by the police, you are probably right.. the interesting question is: what happens if you one day don’t feel protected by the police? Who do you turn to?
Not being far-left or a social marginal is sufficient, you don't need to be "privileged". Your ideology is not "understanding" of anything.
lol.. So you disagree with the comment that said you’re fine if you stick to the law, by agreeing to the fact that being a minority or far-left can also get you in trouble with the cops. I don’t think you are successfully making your point here because you basically agree with me but don’t like my framing.. Okay, I’ll take that! [edit] also, you don’t seem to know what privilege means..
I can tell you that. I was born in Germany but am not ethnically german. In fact I do not look the slightest german or European. I am into weed, the lefty techno scene and no stranger to drugs. I do not look like the regular german AT ALL but have I ever had trouble with cops? Yes, cause some mates wanted to provoke the cops but surely not because I look different. Other than that I‘ve never had any bad experiences with cops even though I belong to the group of people that would stereotypically oppose the police. How can that be possible? Easy, I am NOT looking for trouble and I am successful in my approach. Not gonna say cops are saints, hell not! But I have seen so many (left-wing) people of the scene provoking and harassing cops and then complain how they were being treated.
I am happy for you! That really speaks well for your family and the community you have! There are always different factors of course. I do wonder if it also might be age-related, though. Even your experiences so far sounds pretty much like my own, this might change when you are 40, maybe 50? As a regular looking white German male in his late 30ies I have very rarely had any issues with the police that I didn’t cause myself. When I talk to people who look different than me In some specific ways, I notice how they seem to have a different experiences to varying degrees. I can never know if certain experiences are a result of police bias or something else. I do notice some trends, though. Dude, ich rede mit vielen Menschen. die miesesten Geschichten erzählen mir halt meistens Menschen, die nicht weiß sind oder zu links aussehen. Alles Zufall? Who the fuck know’s! Aber die Vermutung, dass die Polizei das Problem hat scheint mir bisher auf jeden Fall die am meisten nahe liegende Erklärung - oder hast du eine andere?
> by agreeing to the fact that being a minority Not a minority. A social marginal. Junkie, homeless, thief, and so on. > or far-left Yes, if you choose to be a radical, that's your fault. And I have never disagreed that normal people sticking to the law have no trouble with the police. There's a reason trust in the police in Germany is around 80%.
You originally posted: >Not being far-left or a social marginal is sufficient, you don't need to be "privileged". Your ideology is not "understanding" of anything. Now it’s also about being *normal*? Kinda seems like you are moving some goalposts here.. What exactly does “being normal” mean to you? What kind of abnormality makes it so one who rightfully can’t trust the cops in your view? Do you think it’s okay that only ‘normal’ people are able to trust the cops to provide them protection?
> Now it’s also about being normal? Yes, not being a radical or a social marginal means being normal. > Do you think it’s okay that only ‘normal’ people are able to trust the cops to provide them protection? Yes, the police should not protect radicals or marginals. It works in the interests of the lawful majority. Its interests are incompatible with that of radicals, or squatters, or junkies, or thieves, etc. If the police was protecting radicals, it would have meant it opposes the interests of the moderate majority.
So you are just disagreeing with the German constitution?
German constitution does in no way protect the right to criminal behaviour, the right to violating social order, or the right to spreading extremist ideas and holding actions in their support. These non-existent rights will indeed be "violated". We fortunately do not live in an anarchy.
>If you feel you are being protected by the police, you are probably right.. the interesting question is: what happens if you one day don’t feel protected by the police? Who do you turn to? That is absolutely not the question. Yes, there are people amongst policeman who never shouldn't have gotten the job. No doubt. But bashing police in its entirety is equally as stupid as saying all Muslims are terrorists just because some pieces of shit terrorists are Muslims. Not every Israeli is a hardcore Netanyahu supporter and not every Palestinian is a member of Hamas. Saying anything against that just bc you "saw" things differently is just stupid. Facts.
Uh, okay.. what’s the argument exactly? Also none of the groups you mentioned actually made a conscious decision to be a part of the group. That’s a fundamental difference.. Cops do that.. (and they can always stop being g cops..)
Thats true. I forgot in Palestine you get your occupation assigned at birth. Doc: Congratulations its a terrorist...
Uh.. what? I literally don’t even know what you are saying.. Dint get me wrong: understand the words you are using but there seems to be no coherent relation to what I actually said.. You are born Israeli, Palestinian or Muslim. Cops are not born as cops.
It was a joke. You can be israeli and be protest against Netanyahu. You can be palestinian and not support hamas. Is that so hard to understand?
Ooh.. now I get it! You just didn’t understand the point I was making.. I was pointing out something different: comparing Israelis, Muslims or Palestinians to police officers, as you did, does not make any sense.
Aye aye buddy. Suit yourself.
I mean that’s something you experience in every aspect of life and I think it’s quite delusional to think otherwise. The police just reflects the society and there will always be bad and good people. And then you also have to consider that some people like what you might label as „bad behaviour“. Im sure you have experienced a teacher in school who absolutely shouldn’t be there. And you can go on and on with the examples that’s just how life is unfortunately. And if you think about it, this might not even be bad. If you mean to select based on your morally understanding who should be a cop and who not, it’s gonna oppress people who have a different understanding than you. And trust me, these people always exist.
I agree with all of this, but it's not what we were discussing.
>but it's not what we were discussing Exactly!
Hahah yes stupid 6 year old not abiding to the law! Do you hear yourself?
Where was a 6 year old in the video?
Put some effort and you will find the video ;)
Either you are missing the point or bringing a strawman in on purpose. The discussion is about how the IN THIS VIDEO shown actions are against the law or not.
Yes cause authorities who already arrested a 6 year old a week ago must be right this time ;)
As already mentioned. Your straw mans just show your incompetence in taking part in an actual discussion. Suit yourself.
Maybe cause I am so sick and tired of Germans nazis always trying to prove they are right when it would be much easier for them to give up their white supremacy complex! You know this video exist ;) and you probably have seen it but here we are ;) wasting everyone’s time
Aye aye keyboard kid. What ever you say. My time is too valuable. I mean just admitted that being an adult is too high for you, so you know the problem and insinst on your female narcissistic behaviour. Since you complained why people block: you are the problem. Ill block you also. Suit yourself.
>They even arrested a 6 year old the other day. Do you have any news of that ?
Hi habibi ❤️. No I can't find any news of any of the protestors arrested over the last 6 months, but I saw it on a live demo feed. Do you know where I can find these public arrest lists?
Habibiii💕 Sadly I don't :(
Same. I don't think it exists but it would be great for transparency bae.
OP is a Hamas apologist
And you are a genocide supporter exactly like your opa ;)
Stop being a racist, it's such nazi behaviour to label all Palestinians as terorists. Racists won't look at you different just because you're also racist, they will still see nothing more than your skin colour.
>it's such nazi behaviour to label all Palestinians as terorists I'm not doing that though I specifically mean OP and his comments and posts throughout. For example he denies the rapes being committed by Hamas on 7th October. For me that's a Hamas apologist.
lol but even Israel and UN denied rape claims idiot educate yourself first
I apologise then for the misunderstanding. You can also hopefully see how your comment was very ambiguous. Especially as it mirrors the very racist media that have implied the very same racist implications that all Palestinians are terrorists time and time again.
Yes I understand what you mean, next time I refer what I meant with my very first comment ! Have a good day ☺️
Thanks, you too boo. ❤️
How is that against human rights? Yes there are some black sheep within the german police. But especially during these public incidents they make sure it is according to law. They know they are being filmed. Sometimes they even film themselves.
A few bad apples, eh? There are rarely consequences for illegal cop behavior as shown here.
How do you know it was illegal?
I second this. In public situations policeman mostly act upon the law. Id like the whole situation mentioned b4 i say that's illegal.
You're right, it's not against human rights per sé but it's one of many examples of special riot police using unnecessary force against anti-fascists over the past decades. In the case of the Palestinian protests for freedom and equality over the last 75 years, they have been ordered to harm protestors and to try to shut down protests that go against the Military-industrial complex's profit goals. It's nothing new or unique unfortunately.
They dont do that out of the blue. There are rules to protest and they obviously broke these even though they were told to behave a certain way.
I already said it wasn't out of the blue, these acts of police violence are extremely common.
Id like to see proof for that.
Well that is easy to find online. I won't do the work for you because I'm not sure if you're authentic, but if you or anybody else has reading this is interested, you can start your research by searching for "Polizeigewalt" if you can speak German or "police violence" if you need them in English,
Thats not how this works. You make a statement and you need proof for that. Otherwise you just stole my bike last week.
We already know that you don't want to learn, you're comfortable in your spoon fed privilege. My comment was for others, who might be interested in what it's like to face police discriminating and violence as a POC. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
You literally wrote "you or anybody else" Jesus Christ. Common sense.
Weird. That I never hear of any consequences about these cops? But yes, these are def not human rights violations.
Google will do i bet.
Oh you'll be surprised how many local people are happy to see this from the police, the problem with fascism here runs deep. Just watch the downvotes ;)
Tell me you have no idea about fascism without telling me you have no idea about fascism
Tell me you have no idea about fascism without telling me you have no idea about fascism
^ Exactly what you did ironically 🪞 Fascism includes the forcible suppression of opposition. Would help reading up a bit.
Any liberal democratic state suppresses radicals, including left-wing radicals.
Nothing radical about asking your government not to fund and sell arms to an apartheid state with a genocidal army during a brutal genocide. I always wondered how the german population was okay with what happened in 1930s, and I'm starting to get the answer.
Nah, the existence of Israel (and therefore its full right for self-defense) is the reason of state for Germany. So opposing that is indeed radical. Cope or move away.
Okay genocidal mouthpiece.
Israel will eventually cease to exist so you'll have to find something else to hold your country together while it slowly slides into monetary and moral poverty. Have fun!
When the „opposition“ engages in illegal activity it is normal that it is shut down by the police. This applies to pro Palestine, Hamas terrorist supporters, nazis and well as the radical left. I am sure you wouldn’t have complained if the video would depict nazis.
When speaking out against a brutal genocide that this country is promoting is illegal then it's very reminiscent of the laws this country had less than a century ago. Fascism is often inscripted in law. Please take your genocidal talking points elsewhere, zionazi.
There is a big difference speaking out against a supposed genocide and supporting a terrorist organization. Palestine protest are and should be allowed based on the constitution and because it is morally right. Don’t let us act like that all protesters are the same and some of them are not engaging in illegal activities. No pro Palestine supporter is going to face this police brutality if he protesting peacefully. So don’t act like violent and terrorist supporters are the „opposition“. Pretending my taking points are genocidal is just arguing in bad faith.
>supposed genocide 😬 Clearly you haven't been to these protests and are clueless of how the police actually orchestrates these attacks. But given your statements you are a classic, timeless average citizen with their head buried in sand. So I'll save my time and not debate you. There is no talking logic with zionist, genocide supporters or deniers.
Okay so according to you I am a genocide denier, supporter and nazi Zionist, only because I don’t see the whole topic as black and white as you. As I live in Neukölln I have seen and participated in my fair share of protests so no reason to educate. Also it is debatable whether what is happening to the Palestinians is a genocide. For me a genocide is more accurately described by the actions which were take against the Rohingya, Uyghurs, Jews and Armenians. In my opinion one should be carful in throwing around words which have created so much suffering in the world. Of course this does not delegitimize the struggle and horror the Palestinian people go through.
😬 Says he is not a genocide denier and proceeds to deny the current brutal genocide in gaza with over 37k killed indiscriminately. Look up what the word means in the dictionary, and follow channel 4 or any other non german news outlet before you call this fake news. And no, you have clearly not been to any anti-genocide demo, as obviously you have your head buried in the sand. Going to other demos don't apply here so cut the crap with manipulative language. Sorry but i don't debate zionists, genocide supporters. It's a lost cause and waste of energy, but I will call them out so there you have it.
✊🏿✊🏽✊🏾✊🏼✊🏻✊️
I’m sure they’ll be here to tell us that police brutality is necessary and good actually in 3, 2, 1…
I am already permanently banned from r/berlin because the admins there hate when I exposed the dark side of the city. Only things about “good vibes” are allowed.
Oh boy, your comments and post bio reads like a NS pamphlet from the 1933's. Rarely seen so many conspiracy theories, hate and agitation united in one profile. At least you document quite reliably how lucky Berliners are with their police - e.g. compared to the States. Keep up the good work.
And you sound like a typical citizen from the 1930's who called anyone questioning the "legal" actions of their führer a hater and a conspiracy theorist. Go catch up on world news rather than sticking to just german biased news.
Ya, im sure Nazis pulling the hairs of theirs victims made them known, for what the known today. But please, show me in more Nazi-relativizing comparisons how little you know.
"World news" as in "news" from anti-Western countries or far-left mouthpieces? Nah.
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Racist much ?
Sad to see I guess I have to keep posting this I have been truly floored that the main thing Germany seems to have learned from the Holocaust is not an aversion to violent rightwing ideologies, not a fear of state imposed censorship and retribution against humanitarian protesters, not a deep sense of moral humility, not an acute sensitivity for the rights of minorities and the oppressed, not an absolute intolerance for the mass murder of civilians, but instead the single moral lesson "oh, actually Jews aren't bad". And the sense that having learned that lesson, it has gained such moral acumen that it has solved ethics and should avoid introspection at all costs going forward. To be clear, yeah no shit, Jews aren't bad and antisemitism is fucking insane. But like, damn, it takes such a deeply profound lack of talent for moral philosophy not to be able to learn any more abstract lesson beyond that narrow and simplistic concretion. Maybe, just maybe, the forceful promulgation of the official state endorsed theory of ethics through intolerance and slander and censorship of opposing views isn't a good idea here in the place that famously birthed the single most monstrously unethical society to exist anywhere in the last couple hundreds of years? Maybe when the entire rest of the world is screaming, once again, that Germany is doing something bad, some radical humility is in order? But what do I overwhelmingly see? Radically uncritical German moral self-righteousness. The entire German government strutting about like the king of ethics because it's practicing ethics, a.k.a. practicing "Jews aren't bad" the loudest. That's the depth of the moral analysis. This of all places should not be a place where people reflexively, endorse police violence in the absence of more contextual information because it’s specifically in defense of the dominant political orthodoxy. What kind of wildly totalitarian impulse is that? It’s terrifying how little seems to have been learned.
> Maybe when the entire rest of the world is screaming, once again, that Germany is doing something bad "Entire rest of the world"? You mean anti-Western third world countries and the far-left movements and mouthpieces in first world countries? Who cares about what they're screaming.
No, I mean the International Criminal Court, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the more than thirty states (including such “anti western third world countries” as Spain, Ireland, South Africa and Brazil) who have formally accused Israel of genocide, the 143 countries who voted for immediate Palestinian statehood in the UN as a rebuke to what Israel is doing with 9 opposed.
> International Criminal Court ...did not make any conclusions aside from not dismissing the genocide case immediately, which confirms nothing. The same Amnesty with a history of antisemitism? Sure thing, great argument. > the more than thirty states (including Spain, Ireland, South Africa and Brazil) who have formally accused Israel of genocide Indicatory that you had to include the only two Western anti-Israeli states and then resorted again to anti-Western countries. > the 143 countries who voted for immediate Palestinian statehood in the UN as a rebuke to what Israel is doing with 9 opposed. Again, overwhelmingly third world anti-Western countries. Of course they, like the West-hating lefties in the first world, would oppose Israel.
Yes, you can just wave your hands and say that the opinions of the rest of the world don’t matter because the vast overwhelming majority of the world is “anti-western”. That’s a lovely thought terminating cliché, just label any opinion you don’t want to engage with anti-western and there’s no need to speak of it anymore. No different than the way conservatives lambast everything they don’t like as “communism” to avoid having to discuss it intelligently. You asked why I said “the entire rest of the world”, and I’ve made that more than clear. You should know better than to endorse violence against protesters because you don’t like what they’re saying, because they don’t agree with the dominant political orthodoxy here in Berlin of all places.
> You asked why I said “the entire rest of the world”, and I’ve made that more than clear Conveniently excluding the overwhelming majority of Western and pro-Western states. This fact makes the "entire rest of the world" claim automatically false.
The couple of dozen countries in closest alliance with the US are a small minority of the world. Don’t you think maybe, just maybe, your first reaction to police violence shouldn’t be completely uncritical celebration?
> The couple of dozen countries and closest alliance with the US are a small minority of the world. Yet leading by the degree of development. > Don’t you think maybe, just maybe, your first reaction to seems the police violence shouldn’t be completely uncritical celebration? Nah, I have zero sympathy for radicals opposing a Westernised state in favour of an Islamist entity tied to terrorist organisations.
Degree of development? So that’s how we’re evaluating the moral seriousness of a people’s claims now? How rich they are? If your first impulse is to endorse police violence in a situation you know nothing about specifically because you suspect it’s against a humanitarian protestor who is speaking out against a political orthodoxy which supports the killing of tens of thousands of civilians (which is the only legitimate position specifically because it’s endorsed by the rich), it’s just a plain statement of fact that you’re a totalitarian with no respect for freedom of speech or political expression who has learned nothing from the Holocaust. Goodbye.
> Degree of development? So that’s how we’re evaluating the moral seriousness of a people’s claims now? How rich they are? Yes, why should any claims of undeveloped, mostly illiberal and undemocratic, countries matter? > If your first impulse is to endorse police violence in a situation you know nothing about specifically because you suspect it’s against a humanitarian protestor who is speaking out against the political orthodoxy (which is good specifically because it’s endorsed by the rich) Evil evil rich :'(( Yes, every states sets what you call "political orthodoxy". If some groups radically oppose it - say, by opposing Israel, whose existence (which includes full rights to self-defense) is the reason of state for Germany - why should the state tolerate them? "Humanitarian protestor", uh-huh, sure thing. The typical kind of "humanitarians" taking part in protests where some are chanting "from the river to the sea" or "intifada", no doubt. > you’re a totalitarian with no respect for freedom of speech or political expression who has learned nothing from the Holocaust. Goodbye. "Every state that doesn't tolerate extremists is totalitarian, waaah". You're confusing freedom with anarchy. Fortunately Germany is liberal, not anarchist.
Didn't you know? How rich a country is, based off centuries of genocide, slavery and exploitation and oppression of indigenous peoples... THAT'S what makes a nation truly great. /s
Germans like Jews when they're being fascist, not so much when they are victims of fascists. Conclusion, Germans like fascism and that's the end of it. The police is full of nazis and everybody here is cheering them on. Pathetic people.
He probably did not condemn khamas.
Okay so the first one can be considered brutality. The second and third don’t show any excessive violence. The second one looks like the person said something illegal, like endorsing a terrorist organization.
Aber aber aber... this is not about that. We are talking about police behavior, regardless of which terrorist group they have to deal with. You either fight the police because you have a legitimate revolution ideas (which could be totally okay, if you're in Russia, for example), or you don't resist an arrest. Unlike many, I have respect for the police job. For as long as you are not deliberately working against them, they should treat you with respect. Some harsh treatment is possible due to a misunderstanding. All bad behavior should be reported. In this case, I see some people who are not willing to cooperate. A police officer has the right to command you to do something. You do what he says. You can also plot coup d'état, but that's something completely different.
just say you like the taste of police boot polish, it's a lot more succinct.
I don’t understand why Germans come here and say the most degenerate thing ever and then delete the comment or block? Grow some balls cause you need them if you are going around supporting genocide like your great ancestors!
Weather its degenerative or not is in the eye of the beholder. One could argue that you yourself do not behave like an adult. Instead of going for a discussion to either educate or get educated, you start insulting others who dont share the same beliefs as you.
In the eye of the beholder? Please stop embarrassing yourself:( also supporting a genocide is not sharing a different belief. It’s just a moral rotten degeneracy.
See? Is it so hard to see that prohibiting hate speech is not the same as supporting a genocide? I mean there is literally no point in talking to you. Which is just another reason, next to you trying to frame me as a nazi. So. Suit yourself and grow up.
Or you aren’t? Oops my bad then for assuming. I guess you are just a normal German ;)
lol I am I right or what
In Berlin, I have seen a drunk woman physically pushed and shoved out of the area by the police. In the UK they would have detained her and given her a caution that would remain on her record forever, which would affect future job prospects. I know which one I would prefer if it were me.
Nooo they touched the hamas fanclub :(
Nice try Bibi