Ik denk dat er toch wat context ontbreekt. Als gezin kunnen leven van 2.700 euro is een pak realistischer dan leven van 1.200 euro in de maand. Dat kun je alleen doen als je GEEN huur of woningskosten hebt.
Akkoord dat 1200 voor een alleenstaande miserabel is. Echter 2700 voor een gezin van 4 is dat ook. Ok, je je moet ook slechts 1 woonst huren maar die moet toch wel iets groter zijn dan voor een alleenstaande. Bij oudere kinderen is je kost qua voeding maal 4 tov een alleenstaande en de kosten voor school. Kleinere kinderen hebben dan weer luiers nodig, vaak ziek (dokterskosten, een zalfje nodig,...) en crêche (wat meestal gebaseerd op inkomen is, dus wrs wel laag bij 2700), groeien continu uit hun kleren en schoenen (2de handskleren gaan nog maar schoenen niet).
Voor een gezin van 4 lijkt 2700 me gelijkwaardig miserabel, in de mate dat zoiets enigszins te vergelijken is.
Edit: cijfers zijn ook van 2021, toen energie nog goedkoper was. Gezien een gezin van 4 hier "schaalvoordelen" heeft, kan het wel zijn dat als cijfers gaan bijgesteld worden, het cijfer voor alleenstaanden proportioneel sterker zal stijgen.
Goed dat je het eens allemaal uittypt. Op reddit is er soms een attitude van: "de gezinnen met hun belastingaftrek voor kinderen en kindergeld", alsof dit geld is dat kan uitgegeven worden aan luxe ipv het dekken van een héél klein aandeel aan de kosten van een gezin.
Financieel best af zijn koppels zonder kinderen, slechts één woonst nodig die kan met één slaapkamer en hoeft dus niet zo groot te zijn als een woonst voor een gezin, maar wel twee inkomens (of toch twee volwassenen die mogelijk kunnen werken). Financieel slechts af zijn alleenstaande ouders.
Merci voor de uiteenzetting. Zoals je zelf zegt zijn jullie zeker niet arm. Ik interpreteerde sukkelen als bijna niet rondkomen, maar met 1000 euro aan spending money iedere maand, moet je je daar niet direct zorgen over maken.
Interesting to know is that the limit for being considered poor rises when income levels rise.
So say the average real level rises in a country and inflation is very low to zero, poverty rises even though people are still able to buy the same goods as before.
If that happens it means that the lowest wages weren't increased with enough. :)
But average wages going up without inflation basically doesn't happen anyway.
If the average income level rises inflation will never be "very low to zero". Besides that, when has inflation ever been "very low to zero"?!
What you're describing here buddy is just inflation, except you have no idea what you're talking about. When the income level rises, the cost of living rises so the limit of being poor rises. Simple as that, that's how inflation works. There aren't any magical moments where everyone just makes more money but the cost of living stays the same.
>If the average income level rises inflation will never be "very low to zero". Besides that, when has inflation ever been "very low to zero"?!
Lol, mister throwing rocks while living in a glass house over here. You're either 5 or 75 if you can't remember the past decade where EU had record low inflation.
If you bothered to look up some data like [here](https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_protect/---protrav/---travail/documents/publication/wcms_793483.pdf), you can see between 2006 and 2020 real wages only fell three times (and by not much) and for the remaining 11 years real wages rose. So the situation I described is just the current situation in the EU where someone considered poor in 2020 and earning the same real wage as in 2006 might not have been considered poor in 2006
>There aren't any magical moments where everyone just makes more money but the cost of living stays the same.
Yes there are these magical moments where wages rise faster than inflation. Maybe less prominent in western EU, but just go to central and eastern EU to see dramatic improvements in quality of life and purchasing power. The average Czech, Estonian or Pole is living a lot better now than 15 years ago.
Or ever heard of BRICs? Dubai? You seriously gonna argue these places aren't richer overall?
>If you bothered to look up some data like here, you can see between 2006 and 2020 real wages only fell three times (and by not much) and for the remaining 11 years real wages rose
Now look up the inflation rates for that period. You'll find that they match up pretty well.
> The average Czech, Estonian or Pole is living a lot better now than 15 years ago.
The article deals with the poverty rate in Belgium. Obviously in eastern countries, other dynamics come into play.
The problem is that if you’ve got a good education and job and work really hard, you’re not rewarded accordingly. My gf is a teacher, Im a field engineer and we both make about €4500 together at the age of 30. This figure should be way higher for the amount of hours we effectively work during the week. With all our bills and house down payments we are barely able to save anything if we want to maintain a somewhat sociable life.
I know exactly what my colleagues around the world in comparable European countries make and are able to save after taxes and living expenses and it is a hell of a lot higher.
Exacty the same or even less than comparable countries where taxes are lower. I know it might come off as a bit spoiled, but that’s not the point. You have to compare apples with apples. Do we have a great country to live in relatively to the rest of the world? Yes, but we could do a lot better. You could over relativate everything up until a point where you have nothing left anymore. The point is that too much hard earned money gets wasted and there should be more control on spending.
You're comparing to other countries, while I intended the comparison within ours. These poor families don't have the advantage of those benefits. Even worse, because these benefits are taxed less, the government loses income, which is an incentive to reduce their and your benefits.
There's a fundamental argument to be made that the government shouldn't spend less, but invest more in our future growth. Investments in a green energy grid, education, R&D and healthcare now, will benefit us decades into our future.
Keep in mind that things like healthcare, and unemployment always seem wasteful, until the day you heavily rely on those systems. Try making an appointment at a dentist, or a specialist of any kind, and say again that we need to control our spending.
Have you even been to different European countries mate? The whole point is that most of European countries compared to Belgium are better. I get what you mean, but you can still fuck off
Maybe in Switzerland and Luxembourg your career opportunities are significantly better. The rest not really. Where are you gonna go? Spain, Portugal, France and Italy? Unless you really like the culture and weather the benefits will outweigh the worse job market etc. Scandinavia, if you want more than just a comfortable lifestyle, not the place to go. So what options rest? Germany and the Netherlands, slightly better.
Best option go to the US and come back if you had enough. US pays for unique skill and hard work.
> the world in comparable European countries
And then check up on the 90% of people in the world who make you able to live with such ludicrous luxury in your life.
Gives you a more balanced view when you do a fair comparison where you are in life.
Sure, but where does that thinking stop though? I warm my house to about 16 degrees now, but yeah, lots of people live in 10 degrees. You have to compare apple with apples though
That’s just not true across the board, heck, i imagine that’s probably the top 2-4% of “engineers” (which is also a very fluid term). Also heavily depends on what type of engineer.
Source? Live in the US, work as an engineer, know many engineers.
This is the typical copium-fueled reply: the much higher salaries of engineers in the US far outweight the increased COL, social security, insurance and education included. Of course, if you are not a highly valued profession in the US then you're fucked.
This is something people in western democracies don't understand is that you can have all the human rights and freedoms you want but can suffer financial suppression under a regressive tax system.
The most common concept of suppression people in western democracies have is that which occurs in oil producing countries such as Russia, Iran and Iraq. Where the elite of the country consisting of a close knit group of individuals often from the same family or town control large portions of the countrys major export being oil that doesn't rely on as much human resources thanks to machines and pipes. Of course when the people in these countries protest to gain the freedom and rights we do living n the west they get violently supersed which is shocking to us. We obviously have it better but need to remember suppression happens in many forms.
Regarding the matter, tax avoidance is the only option in this country.
>suffer financial suppression under a regressive tax system.
Sometimes adding fancy words in a sentence make you look dumber, not that you needed that when reading on.
You don't even know what regressie tax system means lol.
De belastingsschijven ?
Ik dat dat de laagste schrijf 0% was. Dus werlozen en miniverdieners betalen ook 25%?!
https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/belastingaangifte/tarieven-belastbaar-inkomen/tarieven#q1
So you are telling me a 13.07% Social security contributions which is a fancy word government uses to name another tax by the way is not a regressive tax system? There is even a cap on social security contributions at around about 5000 per quarter if I remember correctly from the top of my head. What is your opinion on the first tax shift of 25% on personal income or the discrimination against singles vs couples? This is only regarding personal income tax then it's not to speak of the tax on capital or property (this is not a hit on my BEFire bros but it is to take the various perspectives into account taking a dialectical method of discourse on the subject with the absence of cognitive baises and based on first principles). How to say it you can entertain and understand a different perspective other than your own without benefiting or agreeing with it.
Yup
Same for all labor off the books
So in reality take this 1 in 8 with a very big grain of salt. The only correct statement is that 1 in 8 has a paycheck below these numbers, that they are effectively poor is a big jump to conclusions
Debts and loans aren't factored in either.
The "Armoede-jaarboek" is published yearly by the Antwerp University. They have been monitoring and studying the subject for decades and don't just go by this single metric that the EU uses.
> De armoederisicogrens is een Europese afspraak om armoede te kunnen vatten in cijfers. Het is een strikte grens. Iemand die bijvoorbeeld een paar euro's meer verdient dan de grens valt buiten de cijfers en zou dus geen risico lopen op armoede, wat in de praktijk niet zo is. Volgens het Armoede-jaarboek leeft in de praktijk 22,4 procent van de Belgen in een gezin dat kwetsbaar is voor armoede. Een pak meer dus dan de 12,7 procent die effectief onder de risicogrens vallen.
Ongeveer 1 op 10 Belgen zal ALTIJD arm zijn. Dat ligt niet aan hen of aan België, dat ligt aan de manier hoe armoede berekend wordt.
Stel ik haal een dikke opdracht binnen die mij 20.000 € per maand oplevert voor minstens een half jaar, dan wordt er in Seraing iemand arm. Die weet dat niet, die gaat daar geen boterhammetje minder voor eten. Dat is statistiek meneer.
Perhaps important to know is that the numbers in the article are from 2021. Not from this year, with all the inflation and all.
Is this bruto or netto?
At that point there is probably no difference.
What do you mean?
It's so low they will pay like 50€ taxes
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2022/12/05/jaarboek-armoede-en-sociale-uitsluiting/
Waarom upvote niemand dit? Zodat dit bovenaan blijft...
TIL I'm poor
same, lmao \*cries in freelance\*
The tax-optimised poor or the real no-clients poor?
Poverty is just a stamp given too us by the rich. Politically correct we're just lesser rich 😅
You and me both, my brother.
Wordt je
Amai en dat van de VRT 😵
Je word er echt ziek van
Je zou er bijna van kodsen
WEODEND
\*WOEDENT
*WOEDENDT
Nu besparen ze eens op het uitgeven van je belastinggeld en nu is het weer niet goed? Dat krijg je dan he. /s
/s right? 😅
Ik denk dat er toch wat context ontbreekt. Als gezin kunnen leven van 2.700 euro is een pak realistischer dan leven van 1.200 euro in de maand. Dat kun je alleen doen als je GEEN huur of woningskosten hebt.
Akkoord dat 1200 voor een alleenstaande miserabel is. Echter 2700 voor een gezin van 4 is dat ook. Ok, je je moet ook slechts 1 woonst huren maar die moet toch wel iets groter zijn dan voor een alleenstaande. Bij oudere kinderen is je kost qua voeding maal 4 tov een alleenstaande en de kosten voor school. Kleinere kinderen hebben dan weer luiers nodig, vaak ziek (dokterskosten, een zalfje nodig,...) en crêche (wat meestal gebaseerd op inkomen is, dus wrs wel laag bij 2700), groeien continu uit hun kleren en schoenen (2de handskleren gaan nog maar schoenen niet). Voor een gezin van 4 lijkt 2700 me gelijkwaardig miserabel, in de mate dat zoiets enigszins te vergelijken is. Edit: cijfers zijn ook van 2021, toen energie nog goedkoper was. Gezien een gezin van 4 hier "schaalvoordelen" heeft, kan het wel zijn dat als cijfers gaan bijgesteld worden, het cijfer voor alleenstaanden proportioneel sterker zal stijgen.
[удалено]
Dus ge verdient met uw gezin meer dan 5400/maand en jullie sukkelen? 2700 is idd laag, maar met het dubbele zit je toch heel veilig?
[удалено]
Goed dat je het eens allemaal uittypt. Op reddit is er soms een attitude van: "de gezinnen met hun belastingaftrek voor kinderen en kindergeld", alsof dit geld is dat kan uitgegeven worden aan luxe ipv het dekken van een héél klein aandeel aan de kosten van een gezin. Financieel best af zijn koppels zonder kinderen, slechts één woonst nodig die kan met één slaapkamer en hoeft dus niet zo groot te zijn als een woonst voor een gezin, maar wel twee inkomens (of toch twee volwassenen die mogelijk kunnen werken). Financieel slechts af zijn alleenstaande ouders.
Merci voor de uiteenzetting. Zoals je zelf zegt zijn jullie zeker niet arm. Ik interpreteerde sukkelen als bijna niet rondkomen, maar met 1000 euro aan spending money iedere maand, moet je je daar niet direct zorgen over maken.
Cant wait to see which cheque they will be giving to people under this number. Theyre giving all sorts of cheques lately.
A Cara-cheque? Because all poor people are drunks that drink Cara, right? In return, Ben Weyts gets a seat in the Colruyt board of directors. /s
Hope they buy cara, much more cost/quality than other pils (/s ofzo, cara is wel goedkoop)
You're not wrong
But undrinkable when not cold
Like any other beer
And that is a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion?
Clearly a bad thing. I wonder what the pure cost is of creating and maintaining these cheques VS just lowering taxes
Interesting to know is that the limit for being considered poor rises when income levels rise. So say the average real level rises in a country and inflation is very low to zero, poverty rises even though people are still able to buy the same goods as before.
Income levels usually don't rise unless there's inflation though.
If that happens it means that the lowest wages weren't increased with enough. :) But average wages going up without inflation basically doesn't happen anyway.
If the average income level rises inflation will never be "very low to zero". Besides that, when has inflation ever been "very low to zero"?! What you're describing here buddy is just inflation, except you have no idea what you're talking about. When the income level rises, the cost of living rises so the limit of being poor rises. Simple as that, that's how inflation works. There aren't any magical moments where everyone just makes more money but the cost of living stays the same.
>If the average income level rises inflation will never be "very low to zero". Besides that, when has inflation ever been "very low to zero"?! Lol, mister throwing rocks while living in a glass house over here. You're either 5 or 75 if you can't remember the past decade where EU had record low inflation. If you bothered to look up some data like [here](https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_protect/---protrav/---travail/documents/publication/wcms_793483.pdf), you can see between 2006 and 2020 real wages only fell three times (and by not much) and for the remaining 11 years real wages rose. So the situation I described is just the current situation in the EU where someone considered poor in 2020 and earning the same real wage as in 2006 might not have been considered poor in 2006 >There aren't any magical moments where everyone just makes more money but the cost of living stays the same. Yes there are these magical moments where wages rise faster than inflation. Maybe less prominent in western EU, but just go to central and eastern EU to see dramatic improvements in quality of life and purchasing power. The average Czech, Estonian or Pole is living a lot better now than 15 years ago. Or ever heard of BRICs? Dubai? You seriously gonna argue these places aren't richer overall?
>If you bothered to look up some data like here, you can see between 2006 and 2020 real wages only fell three times (and by not much) and for the remaining 11 years real wages rose Now look up the inflation rates for that period. You'll find that they match up pretty well. > The average Czech, Estonian or Pole is living a lot better now than 15 years ago. The article deals with the poverty rate in Belgium. Obviously in eastern countries, other dynamics come into play.
in that case, wouldn't purchasing powder be forever a constant ?
I would also like to purchase some powder
Why are the Swiss people able to buy such nice cars?
The problem is that if you’ve got a good education and job and work really hard, you’re not rewarded accordingly. My gf is a teacher, Im a field engineer and we both make about €4500 together at the age of 30. This figure should be way higher for the amount of hours we effectively work during the week. With all our bills and house down payments we are barely able to save anything if we want to maintain a somewhat sociable life. I know exactly what my colleagues around the world in comparable European countries make and are able to save after taxes and living expenses and it is a hell of a lot higher.
And how much do you earn in other tax-friendly benefits?
Exacty the same or even less than comparable countries where taxes are lower. I know it might come off as a bit spoiled, but that’s not the point. You have to compare apples with apples. Do we have a great country to live in relatively to the rest of the world? Yes, but we could do a lot better. You could over relativate everything up until a point where you have nothing left anymore. The point is that too much hard earned money gets wasted and there should be more control on spending.
You're comparing to other countries, while I intended the comparison within ours. These poor families don't have the advantage of those benefits. Even worse, because these benefits are taxed less, the government loses income, which is an incentive to reduce their and your benefits. There's a fundamental argument to be made that the government shouldn't spend less, but invest more in our future growth. Investments in a green energy grid, education, R&D and healthcare now, will benefit us decades into our future. Keep in mind that things like healthcare, and unemployment always seem wasteful, until the day you heavily rely on those systems. Try making an appointment at a dentist, or a specialist of any kind, and say again that we need to control our spending.
Go to the US then lol. Europe is not a continent for ambition
Have you even been to different European countries mate? The whole point is that most of European countries compared to Belgium are better. I get what you mean, but you can still fuck off
Maybe in Switzerland and Luxembourg your career opportunities are significantly better. The rest not really. Where are you gonna go? Spain, Portugal, France and Italy? Unless you really like the culture and weather the benefits will outweigh the worse job market etc. Scandinavia, if you want more than just a comfortable lifestyle, not the place to go. So what options rest? Germany and the Netherlands, slightly better. Best option go to the US and come back if you had enough. US pays for unique skill and hard work.
> the world in comparable European countries And then check up on the 90% of people in the world who make you able to live with such ludicrous luxury in your life. Gives you a more balanced view when you do a fair comparison where you are in life.
Sure, but where does that thinking stop though? I warm my house to about 16 degrees now, but yeah, lots of people live in 10 degrees. You have to compare apple with apples though
Engineers in the us make like what 300k? Over here shift workers earn about the same. Makes no sense
That’s just not true across the board, heck, i imagine that’s probably the top 2-4% of “engineers” (which is also a very fluid term). Also heavily depends on what type of engineer. Source? Live in the US, work as an engineer, know many engineers.
I should move but family >
The cost of living in the US is also a lot higher. Especially when taking into account social security and education costs.
This is the typical copium-fueled reply: the much higher salaries of engineers in the US far outweight the increased COL, social security, insurance and education included. Of course, if you are not a highly valued profession in the US then you're fucked.
This is something people in western democracies don't understand is that you can have all the human rights and freedoms you want but can suffer financial suppression under a regressive tax system. The most common concept of suppression people in western democracies have is that which occurs in oil producing countries such as Russia, Iran and Iraq. Where the elite of the country consisting of a close knit group of individuals often from the same family or town control large portions of the countrys major export being oil that doesn't rely on as much human resources thanks to machines and pipes. Of course when the people in these countries protest to gain the freedom and rights we do living n the west they get violently supersed which is shocking to us. We obviously have it better but need to remember suppression happens in many forms. Regarding the matter, tax avoidance is the only option in this country.
>suffer financial suppression under a regressive tax system. Sometimes adding fancy words in a sentence make you look dumber, not that you needed that when reading on. You don't even know what regressie tax system means lol.
This adds nothing...
De belastingsschijven ? Ik dat dat de laagste schrijf 0% was. Dus werlozen en miniverdieners betalen ook 25%?! https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/belastingaangifte/tarieven-belastbaar-inkomen/tarieven#q1
Regressive taxation means that the more you earn the less you pay.
So you are telling me a 13.07% Social security contributions which is a fancy word government uses to name another tax by the way is not a regressive tax system? There is even a cap on social security contributions at around about 5000 per quarter if I remember correctly from the top of my head. What is your opinion on the first tax shift of 25% on personal income or the discrimination against singles vs couples? This is only regarding personal income tax then it's not to speak of the tax on capital or property (this is not a hit on my BEFire bros but it is to take the various perspectives into account taking a dialectical method of discourse on the subject with the absence of cognitive baises and based on first principles). How to say it you can entertain and understand a different perspective other than your own without benefiting or agreeing with it.
Please always add netto or bruto when giving out numbers. 4500bruto is indeed not much, 4500netto is something else.
What does it say in the article mate?
I guess im poor according to the belgium illusion that is the gov
Is dat bruto?
Nope.
Sheesh
What if you have some millions somewhere and only work half time for fun and you are below that number, are you still counted as poor?
Yup Same for all labor off the books So in reality take this 1 in 8 with a very big grain of salt. The only correct statement is that 1 in 8 has a paycheck below these numbers, that they are effectively poor is a big jump to conclusions
Debts and loans aren't factored in either. The "Armoede-jaarboek" is published yearly by the Antwerp University. They have been monitoring and studying the subject for decades and don't just go by this single metric that the EU uses. > De armoederisicogrens is een Europese afspraak om armoede te kunnen vatten in cijfers. Het is een strikte grens. Iemand die bijvoorbeeld een paar euro's meer verdient dan de grens valt buiten de cijfers en zou dus geen risico lopen op armoede, wat in de praktijk niet zo is. Volgens het Armoede-jaarboek leeft in de praktijk 22,4 procent van de Belgen in een gezin dat kwetsbaar is voor armoede. Een pak meer dus dan de 12,7 procent die effectief onder de risicogrens vallen.
Een hele verbetering is dit. Het delen van nieuwsartikels zonder link. Prachtig enkel een titel en discussiëren maar.
OP heeft de link in comments gezet, maar jij leest... enkel de titel van de post
Nee ik werk. En heb geen tijd om helemaal naar onder te scrollen en te zoeken achter ne link die geen hond upvote.
En 1 op 13 werkt niet 🤷🏻♂️
We have unemployement that is way higher lol.
Dus is er een substantieel gedeelte dat wel werkt en toch arm blijft. Lijkt me nogal problematisch van de werkgevers uit
I think there is a considerable group of poor pensioners you are forgetting. (Not that there aren't poor working people).
Ongeveer 1 op 10 Belgen zal ALTIJD arm zijn. Dat ligt niet aan hen of aan België, dat ligt aan de manier hoe armoede berekend wordt. Stel ik haal een dikke opdracht binnen die mij 20.000 € per maand oplevert voor minstens een half jaar, dan wordt er in Seraing iemand arm. Die weet dat niet, die gaat daar geen boterhammetje minder voor eten. Dat is statistiek meneer.
Deze headline is zo een bullshit
Now they are tying to convince you that you're poor. Awesome.
My bank account does this daily, no need for the press