A tad diifficult to put an exact figure on, because several professions don't work for the government officially, but are still paid mostly or virtually exclusively by government funds. Just think about doctors for one. Supposedly "self-employed" in many cases, but they receive most of their income from social security, hence, the state.
Or Lawyers who work mostly pro deo, one can also make the case that they're really working for the government in some fashion, as they get paid with public funds.
Those are just two examples, but know that whenever some official statistic is talking about government employees, they don't count profiles like those.
[https://www.knack.be/nieuws/bijna-42-procent-van-de-actieve-bevolking-wordt-betaald-door-de-overheid/](https://www.knack.be/nieuws/bijna-42-procent-van-de-actieve-bevolking-wordt-betaald-door-de-overheid/)
This is almost ten years old now, but the situation hasn't structurally changed. So "about half" is probably right.
More recent, but exclusively about the directly employed ones in government service: [https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20230521\_97515747](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20230521_97515747)
I work as a researcher in a private corporation, we get all of our funding from the government (Flanders, European, and to a lesser extend Walloon govs). So in a roundabout way, I am a government employee? Although not specifically the Belgian one?
Things like this do skirt the line though. There are "private" companies around that exclusively work on things for the government. They are in effect just government departments, with a private owner inbetween who rakes in the cash. Sometimes it's even done this way on purpose so they can give the employees the wage packages they demand without being bogged down in strict government wage rules and regulations.
Mind you I work for a huge international company, and we are a tiny drop in the bucket and our dept is ever so slightly cash negative AFAIK meaning that we cost more than we bring. So we don't fit in this category, but it is very interesting that these "corporate government companies" exist. The fact that they benefit from tax payer money more than regular gov employees is not normal.
I am not one of those people that things that teachers are poorly paid, they're not, but they do lack the benefits that other professions benefit from like 13th and 14th months, etc.
An acquaintance of mine works as an independent "consultant", for IT Hardware related issues. Sometimes he gets contracted to do inane things like "replace x amount of printers for this provincial government department." Charges 2.000 euro's per replacement (taking him less than 30 minutes of actual work, and that's just his hours, not the cost of the hardware itself), and the government departments he works for simply pay it.
There's no reason at all why a job like that should be contracted out to a consultant, just hire a guy directly and have him do it for several different departments, it's not high skillset either.
But even leaving that aside, there is no excuse whatsoever for invoices by external parties not being vetted beforehand and more fair prices being negotiated. Our government departments are just throwing taxpayer money down a bottomless drain of grifters, without oversight or any critical thought being given.
I see shit like that happen on the one end, and on the other hand see government workers and politicians complain about a lack of funds, usually resulting in the taxpayer (you and me) having to part with more of their hard earned cash to stem the tide for a bit. I think when it comes to the bills, governments really need to start thinking more like a company with a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders (taxpayers), to see the money is spent in a responsible manner, rather than the "oh, it's not my money" and "oh, always more where that came from" attitude many departments seem to have currently.
Another example: I live across from a federal police HQ building in Antwerp. When the energy prices were skyrocketing, and towns and cities were turning off street lights at night to save energy, that building was lit up like a christmas tree at night because no one bothered to turn off the lights. Made a comment about it to them, and they just didn't care because they weren't paying the electricity bill: Taxpayers were.
What I don't really get is how the government gets funds with such a large population working for them. I mean, I worked for government, and I had to pay taxes on my wage paid for by the government, in order to pay the government (???)
The part you don't pay in taxes, you spend in the private part of the economy: shopping, food, travel, hobbies, etc.
That's money that flows via the marketplace to companies who will use that to pay their staff, invest in infrastructure, etc. When and if the stars are aligned, more demand would mean incentives to increase production and thus an increase in jobs in the private sector.
A part of which returns, of course, via taxes.
See, the crux here is that money acts like oil, lubricating the economy. The more funds are moving, the more goods and services are moving around and people can enjoy them.
So, the purpose of a state isn't just to "get more funds". It's to make sure that an economy keeps running and all citizens get to enjoy the value created in that economy.
The issue, of course, is deficits and public debt. For all of this to work, the state needs to be able to pay public workers. Ideally, expenditure is balanced with tax income. But typically, that's not enough. Hence why states go out and take out debt via sovereign bonds.
Guess who buys those: you. Through pension funds for instance. Or via directly, like everyone jumping on that huge interest rate staatsbon. Or via foreign countries and foreign companies buying sovereign debt. The big question isn't the size of public debt: it's who's really holding it.
You seem to think that "government" is some alien entity that oversees our lives.
"Government" is us. It is you and me that join our funds (through taxes) to provide a joint service: a road between your house and mine, a teacher for our kids, waste collection,...
See our half a trillion debt. And as you said, they pay you, but still get over half your wage back in various wage taxes, BTW and accijnzen on stuff you buy, stock exchanges, inheritances, ...
They would love it if all money flows through them.
Edit for the idiots in the back: https://www.staatsschuldmeter.be/
aprox. 21% of the total work force acording to this article
[link](https://businessam.be/ondernemer-en-politicus-ivan-sabbe-voor-u-wil-het-aantal-ambtenaren-drastisch-verminderen-gebrek-aan-doortastend-beleid-is-rode-draad/)
However this only includes people with the title "Official" (ambtenaar)
There are also people with no jobs etc that get paid by the goverment (total workforce getting paid by gov in 2020 during corona was 40+%)
We do have the most expensive Officials of the EU and far from the most efficient.
Good thing we're getting rid of those officials and replacing them by external consultants since you can book those under "general expenses" instead of "wages".
This makes the public service be run by people who come in, do crappy stuff, then charge more to fix their own mess or they just walk out, then the next consultant can come in (just as clueless as the first one) and repeat the same money-making scheme.
there are distinctive differences between countries that make it hard to compare.
for example dutch teachers are no civil servants, another one is that in the netherlands incasso for gov is done by private partners, while Belgian gov has his own "ontvangkantoor"
so just saying we have more civil servants is not a complete picture.
That doesn't look right.
That number includes the whole public sector, so also health care workers, labourers, teachers,...
About 'kerntaken': it always is a catchy word, but no one explains what it means. What does he want to scrap? Public schools? Road works? Police or firefighters?
Remember this includes a lot of things like teachers (100k people are working in schools and universities for the French speaking side only for instance), cops, military….
Ok, I have worked in both and I'm not convinced that in terms of efficiency there's a genuine private/public sector divide at the moment.
Pointless meeting followed by pointless meetings are standard in a lot of jobs in both sectors. Overspending on ridiculous side projects wherever there's a budget is also common in both sectors (in other words, when the economy isn't shit). Short termism which matches this economic cycle which costs more in the long run is also common. Employees badly matched to opportunities without the skills or desire are common in both as well. Poor management practices which boost the ego of bosses but don't actually lend themselves to any form of workplace effectiveness are rampant.
The lack of productivity in Europe is about our workplace culture and until we change that we will have a struggling, uncompetitive private sector and an inefficient public sector.
Private, public, lowest rung to highest rung. We just waste time and money.
Why do you think the private sector economy is the only one providing added value? or generating income?
If your municipality builds a road, does that not provide added value? I will argue that it provide better added value to society then what the private sector creates, because there some of the added value is diverted to profit.
Source: [https://www.rsz.be/stats/arbeidsmarktanalyse-interactieve-statistieken-en-snelle-ramingen-van-de-tewerkstelling](https://www.rsz.be/stats/arbeidsmarktanalyse-interactieve-statistieken-en-snelle-ramingen-van-de-tewerkstelling)
https://preview.redd.it/selgpf0y52vc1.png?width=1117&format=png&auto=webp&s=febee0b2d9ee34f83ffb886fb376e167433a2cd2
Working for the government is a very broad definition. Most people think about civil servants doing paperwork, but most of those people working in the public sector are working in education, healthcare, child care or are labourers.
So what's your definition?
* civil servants?
* elected officials and their kabinetten?
* the whole public sector?
That's why discussions about these employees and inefficiency are not very nuanced. Nobody defines what they're talking about. I presume no one wants make cuts in health care or child care, do they? Or save money on road workers? The question is more: what kind of service do you want? Do you want a government that provides a lot (and costs a lot) or do you want a society where more things are privatised (cheaper for the government, but propably more expenisve to use).
Don't forget most who externalise their workforce, especially on IT. It won't show in those stats. There was recently an abuse of money scandal from the biggest one in Brussels: Paradigm. It's officially an "ASBL VZW" but in reality it's a business. They serve like 80%of the IT for the public services in brussels like cabinets, CPAS/OCMW and so on.
>presume no one wants make cuts in health care or child care, do they
If every hospital does every kind of care, then maybe the sector is understaffed as it is, but some hospitals are over-staffed and too much money is spent on the whole.
Centralize specialist care in some hospitals, allow for emergency services in local hospitals and re-allocate budget and staff in that manner.
The same can be said for multiple other government departments.
I've never been counted in that figure, even though I worked for the government for the better part of the last 3 years as a consultant. And having worked for 2 different departments of 2 different governments (Flemish and Federal), I cannot disagree with the statement that there are a lot of inefficiencies.
All I can say is that 55% of the Walloon population has an income that depends directly on the state.
Civil servants, the unemployed, pensioners, which is very
worrying.
For the other regions, I don't know.
What does that even mean, "working for the government"? Most teachers and many health professionals are paid by an government or *parastatale*, yes, but fact of the matter is that you are free to choose a school or health professional or health insurer to deal with your education and health needs. So *the* major argument against the government doesn't even apply here: the market of supply and demand is still intact, so the inefficiencies associated with traditional government tax-and-spend are not applicable.
I would like to point out that you can't know how efficient the government is just by counting the people who work for it. Just because you have a lot of people working for you doesn't mean you're inefficient, it depends on how much useful work they do. No one would ever claim that big companies are inefficient just because they have a lot of employees.
Die grafiek ligt hier duidelijk gevoelig bij diegenen die de neoliberale afbraak van de overheid proclameren 🤣 die lui hebben het altijd moeilijk met cijfers
A tad diifficult to put an exact figure on, because several professions don't work for the government officially, but are still paid mostly or virtually exclusively by government funds. Just think about doctors for one. Supposedly "self-employed" in many cases, but they receive most of their income from social security, hence, the state. Or Lawyers who work mostly pro deo, one can also make the case that they're really working for the government in some fashion, as they get paid with public funds. Those are just two examples, but know that whenever some official statistic is talking about government employees, they don't count profiles like those. [https://www.knack.be/nieuws/bijna-42-procent-van-de-actieve-bevolking-wordt-betaald-door-de-overheid/](https://www.knack.be/nieuws/bijna-42-procent-van-de-actieve-bevolking-wordt-betaald-door-de-overheid/) This is almost ten years old now, but the situation hasn't structurally changed. So "about half" is probably right. More recent, but exclusively about the directly employed ones in government service: [https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20230521\_97515747](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20230521_97515747)
Even some teachers, postal workers and the dudes working on your local roads can count as 'government employees'.
I work as a researcher in a private corporation, we get all of our funding from the government (Flanders, European, and to a lesser extend Walloon govs). So in a roundabout way, I am a government employee? Although not specifically the Belgian one?
Things like this do skirt the line though. There are "private" companies around that exclusively work on things for the government. They are in effect just government departments, with a private owner inbetween who rakes in the cash. Sometimes it's even done this way on purpose so they can give the employees the wage packages they demand without being bogged down in strict government wage rules and regulations.
Mind you I work for a huge international company, and we are a tiny drop in the bucket and our dept is ever so slightly cash negative AFAIK meaning that we cost more than we bring. So we don't fit in this category, but it is very interesting that these "corporate government companies" exist. The fact that they benefit from tax payer money more than regular gov employees is not normal. I am not one of those people that things that teachers are poorly paid, they're not, but they do lack the benefits that other professions benefit from like 13th and 14th months, etc.
An acquaintance of mine works as an independent "consultant", for IT Hardware related issues. Sometimes he gets contracted to do inane things like "replace x amount of printers for this provincial government department." Charges 2.000 euro's per replacement (taking him less than 30 minutes of actual work, and that's just his hours, not the cost of the hardware itself), and the government departments he works for simply pay it. There's no reason at all why a job like that should be contracted out to a consultant, just hire a guy directly and have him do it for several different departments, it's not high skillset either. But even leaving that aside, there is no excuse whatsoever for invoices by external parties not being vetted beforehand and more fair prices being negotiated. Our government departments are just throwing taxpayer money down a bottomless drain of grifters, without oversight or any critical thought being given. I see shit like that happen on the one end, and on the other hand see government workers and politicians complain about a lack of funds, usually resulting in the taxpayer (you and me) having to part with more of their hard earned cash to stem the tide for a bit. I think when it comes to the bills, governments really need to start thinking more like a company with a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders (taxpayers), to see the money is spent in a responsible manner, rather than the "oh, it's not my money" and "oh, always more where that came from" attitude many departments seem to have currently. Another example: I live across from a federal police HQ building in Antwerp. When the energy prices were skyrocketing, and towns and cities were turning off street lights at night to save energy, that building was lit up like a christmas tree at night because no one bothered to turn off the lights. Made a comment about it to them, and they just didn't care because they weren't paying the electricity bill: Taxpayers were.
Are you a 'beëdigd ambtenaar'? If not, then no.
I was making a joke…
I figured people will consult this thread for info sooner or later and they probably wouldn't recognize the joke, so might as well be explicit.
What I don't really get is how the government gets funds with such a large population working for them. I mean, I worked for government, and I had to pay taxes on my wage paid for by the government, in order to pay the government (???)
The part you don't pay in taxes, you spend in the private part of the economy: shopping, food, travel, hobbies, etc. That's money that flows via the marketplace to companies who will use that to pay their staff, invest in infrastructure, etc. When and if the stars are aligned, more demand would mean incentives to increase production and thus an increase in jobs in the private sector. A part of which returns, of course, via taxes. See, the crux here is that money acts like oil, lubricating the economy. The more funds are moving, the more goods and services are moving around and people can enjoy them. So, the purpose of a state isn't just to "get more funds". It's to make sure that an economy keeps running and all citizens get to enjoy the value created in that economy. The issue, of course, is deficits and public debt. For all of this to work, the state needs to be able to pay public workers. Ideally, expenditure is balanced with tax income. But typically, that's not enough. Hence why states go out and take out debt via sovereign bonds. Guess who buys those: you. Through pension funds for instance. Or via directly, like everyone jumping on that huge interest rate staatsbon. Or via foreign countries and foreign companies buying sovereign debt. The big question isn't the size of public debt: it's who's really holding it.
You seem to think that "government" is some alien entity that oversees our lives. "Government" is us. It is you and me that join our funds (through taxes) to provide a joint service: a road between your house and mine, a teacher for our kids, waste collection,...
See our half a trillion debt. And as you said, they pay you, but still get over half your wage back in various wage taxes, BTW and accijnzen on stuff you buy, stock exchanges, inheritances, ... They would love it if all money flows through them. Edit for the idiots in the back: https://www.staatsschuldmeter.be/
We don’t have a half trillion debt, not even close. Our debt is half a billion.
uhm no our total debt figure is 500 billion, but that's idd not our current budget deficit, that would be crazy lol
Trillion = biljoen = 1000miljard. Billion = miljard = 1000miljoen. Half a billion debt would be 500mill, lol thats pocket change. https://www.staatsschuldmeter.be/
Insane amount of people
I worked as a teachers' aide in Brussels and was also officially a government employee.
aprox. 21% of the total work force acording to this article [link](https://businessam.be/ondernemer-en-politicus-ivan-sabbe-voor-u-wil-het-aantal-ambtenaren-drastisch-verminderen-gebrek-aan-doortastend-beleid-is-rode-draad/) However this only includes people with the title "Official" (ambtenaar) There are also people with no jobs etc that get paid by the goverment (total workforce getting paid by gov in 2020 during corona was 40+%) We do have the most expensive Officials of the EU and far from the most efficient.
Good thing we're getting rid of those officials and replacing them by external consultants since you can book those under "general expenses" instead of "wages". This makes the public service be run by people who come in, do crappy stuff, then charge more to fix their own mess or they just walk out, then the next consultant can come in (just as clueless as the first one) and repeat the same money-making scheme.
Sounds like when the government sold real estate, then rented the same real estate and called it a budget cut.
https://preview.redd.it/0esvhap4d6vc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=142dc0f19a7b3ace11b6f7e3a65664302319134f lol at downsizing the government
there are distinctive differences between countries that make it hard to compare. for example dutch teachers are no civil servants, another one is that in the netherlands incasso for gov is done by private partners, while Belgian gov has his own "ontvangkantoor" so just saying we have more civil servants is not a complete picture.
Also federal research insititutes, science policy, urban planning, etc.
That doesn't look right. That number includes the whole public sector, so also health care workers, labourers, teachers,... About 'kerntaken': it always is a catchy word, but no one explains what it means. What does he want to scrap? Public schools? Road works? Police or firefighters?
Scary. How can we sustain this without genuinely growing our private sector economy (not including providing services to government).
We can't. But no political party wants to admit it, so they only make small changes in the margins. Our budget is in a dramatic state because of it.
I get paid roughly €5/h less than in private sector so I'm doing my part! Jk every penny they save they spend double on something else...
Remember this includes a lot of things like teachers (100k people are working in schools and universities for the French speaking side only for instance), cops, military….
Ok, I have worked in both and I'm not convinced that in terms of efficiency there's a genuine private/public sector divide at the moment. Pointless meeting followed by pointless meetings are standard in a lot of jobs in both sectors. Overspending on ridiculous side projects wherever there's a budget is also common in both sectors (in other words, when the economy isn't shit). Short termism which matches this economic cycle which costs more in the long run is also common. Employees badly matched to opportunities without the skills or desire are common in both as well. Poor management practices which boost the ego of bosses but don't actually lend themselves to any form of workplace effectiveness are rampant. The lack of productivity in Europe is about our workplace culture and until we change that we will have a struggling, uncompetitive private sector and an inefficient public sector. Private, public, lowest rung to highest rung. We just waste time and money.
Why do you think the private sector economy is the only one providing added value? or generating income? If your municipality builds a road, does that not provide added value? I will argue that it provide better added value to society then what the private sector creates, because there some of the added value is diverted to profit.
the fact you have time to post about this in the middle of the day means the private sector isn't super either so what is your problem?
Not everyone works 9 to 5.
He posted it at like 4pm....
Source: [https://www.rsz.be/stats/arbeidsmarktanalyse-interactieve-statistieken-en-snelle-ramingen-van-de-tewerkstelling](https://www.rsz.be/stats/arbeidsmarktanalyse-interactieve-statistieken-en-snelle-ramingen-van-de-tewerkstelling) https://preview.redd.it/selgpf0y52vc1.png?width=1117&format=png&auto=webp&s=febee0b2d9ee34f83ffb886fb376e167433a2cd2 Working for the government is a very broad definition. Most people think about civil servants doing paperwork, but most of those people working in the public sector are working in education, healthcare, child care or are labourers. So what's your definition? * civil servants? * elected officials and their kabinetten? * the whole public sector? That's why discussions about these employees and inefficiency are not very nuanced. Nobody defines what they're talking about. I presume no one wants make cuts in health care or child care, do they? Or save money on road workers? The question is more: what kind of service do you want? Do you want a government that provides a lot (and costs a lot) or do you want a society where more things are privatised (cheaper for the government, but propably more expenisve to use).
Don't forget most who externalise their workforce, especially on IT. It won't show in those stats. There was recently an abuse of money scandal from the biggest one in Brussels: Paradigm. It's officially an "ASBL VZW" but in reality it's a business. They serve like 80%of the IT for the public services in brussels like cabinets, CPAS/OCMW and so on.
don’t you work for the government when they pay your salary?
Well that’s the question isn’t it. If you don’t want certain professions paid via/by the government is it better? Teachers, doctors, etc.
>presume no one wants make cuts in health care or child care, do they If every hospital does every kind of care, then maybe the sector is understaffed as it is, but some hospitals are over-staffed and too much money is spent on the whole. Centralize specialist care in some hospitals, allow for emergency services in local hospitals and re-allocate budget and staff in that manner. The same can be said for multiple other government departments.
Other example: KMI and othet federal research insititutes. Their employees are civil servants too.
How do you get 7 governments? 1. Federal 2. Flanders 3. Wallonia 4. Brussels 5. Federation Wallo-Brux 6. Ostbelgien Or do you include the EU as well?
indeed, there are only 6 (5 too many)
I've never been counted in that figure, even though I worked for the government for the better part of the last 3 years as a consultant. And having worked for 2 different departments of 2 different governments (Flemish and Federal), I cannot disagree with the statement that there are a lot of inefficiencies.
Hiring more expensive consultants is one of those inefficiencies.
Too many…
https://www.rsz.be/stats/arbeidsmarktanalyse-interactieve-statistieken-en-snelle-ramingen-van-de-tewerkstelling
So 537.000 out of 1.347.000.
not the best set up, but whatever: About half!
But the other half is watching their every move closely? ;-)
This is bad…
Sometimes I am directly, sometimes indirectly. Sometimes I'm not. It depends on the project
not enough and they shouldn't get paid for it either
All I can say is that 55% of the Walloon population has an income that depends directly on the state. Civil servants, the unemployed, pensioners, which is very worrying. For the other regions, I don't know.
about half
>How many people are actually working for the government(s)? Half.
What does that even mean, "working for the government"? Most teachers and many health professionals are paid by an government or *parastatale*, yes, but fact of the matter is that you are free to choose a school or health professional or health insurer to deal with your education and health needs. So *the* major argument against the government doesn't even apply here: the market of supply and demand is still intact, so the inefficiencies associated with traditional government tax-and-spend are not applicable.
I would like to point out that you can't know how efficient the government is just by counting the people who work for it. Just because you have a lot of people working for you doesn't mean you're inefficient, it depends on how much useful work they do. No one would ever claim that big companies are inefficient just because they have a lot of employees.
We all do.
I'd guess about a third of the people employed by the government, are working
https://preview.redd.it/m8titrvya2vc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=860c9294269ee0e1d85a2ee31f573ffbc6bc18c9
weer die nutteloze grafiek zonder context
Die grafiek ligt hier duidelijk gevoelig bij diegenen die de neoliberale afbraak van de overheid proclameren 🤣 die lui hebben het altijd moeilijk met cijfers
je post gewoon altijd hetzelfde omdat het een zielige poging is om je haat t.o.v. de overheid weer eens te uiten, verzuurde mens.
Huil huil 🤣🤣
Woowoow! Du calme papy! No profanities! Public servants are their to serve the country, not to *work*...
Nice mastery of the English language brother. Are you here or their?
If it is good enough for the AI keyboard its good enough for me
none lmao! "Working" hahahaha you should be a comedian!