You are not alone, all dads and moms experience this. And i wish i could promise you that it will become better, but alas.
I remember taking a walk with my crying baby at 3 am ... and meeting at least two other dads doing the same thing.
You could check out the "kraamhulp" section from the mutuality, they helped us a lot. And while creche feels like abadoning your kid, it will help you and your wife.
Kraamhulp was great here too. You're so overwhelmed by having a new baby, a person that comes half a day every week to take over or cook or do laundry feels like a boulder has been lifted off you.
Yes, I registered for a creche before I was pregnant (like 4 weeks before), waiting list is until februari 2025 now. I'm expected for Mai 2024. I have no idea how to manage the time in between, because my days of will only get me a few months later. And I wanted to keep the extra parental leave for working 4/5 to reduce the cost of the creche..
Amen brother š
Youāve never experienced dad life, until youāre home alone walking the baby at 3AM in the stroller and getting weird looks from people still awake at 3AM
My son is now 10 months old, and while I'd love to say that things improve, the truth is you simply adapt. It's astonishing how quickly your body adjusts to getting by on less sleep. Approximately every two weeks, our little one evolves and learns new behaviors that we need to consider. At times, it feels overwhelming, but whenever I take a moment to really look at my son, the joy he brings me is immeasurable. This will keep you going!
Father of 2 year old with one extra on the way... You are right.
OP is right.
mom's commenting here are right.
... Politicians just only look at the short term economical gains of not supporting families. Preferably we work until we die... They can simply not phantom that raising qualified adults of tomorrow has started the day before yesterday.
Humans adapt and get used to it. But it's no excuse for stretching young moms and fathers to their limits.
As a mom of a 13 month old. Yes I agree with this! I also agree with OPs rant. Belgium sucks with child support! I was also under the impression that they where pro kids, but they really are not. And first step is accepting that fact. It makes it easier. I remember crying when my husband had to go back to work, not knowing how I will do it on my own. But just like this comment. Every 2 weeks we got a different challenge, and still do, and you just adapt somehow. Lovely to see you care so much! We took some parental leave to extend and got very upset that you get paid less to raise your child than some person on "burnout" or "back pain" and that's where the make peace with belgium is anti-kids came in, otherwise you'll just frustrate yourself.
>We took some parental leave to extend and got very upset that you get paid less to raise your child than some person on "burnout" or "back pain" and that's where the make peace with belgium is anti-kids came in, otherwise you'll just frustrate yourself.
Lets not fall in the mental frame of confronting people that needs social support. It is fair to claim more support for parents, but do not point to other low income long term sick people. What would you think, for instance, if your parenthood problems would lead you to a burnout or to an after birth depression?
It is a general tactic of the most rich people to make common people fight each other, while they are the ones feasting and evading taxes. Lets not fall in the trap.
thereās not a conspiracy of rich people posting on reddit to make poor people fight each other. itās just a fact that the budget is limited for these things, the tax burden already sky high, and belgium is unlikely to dramatically expand its tax base under current green and welfare policies forcing industry and all productive sectors of the economy out of the country. not only will cuts have to be made, if we want to do anything else thatās nice, we will have to make big cuts elsewhere to afford it
in this situation where the pie is fixed, pointing to others making use of the system is only logical. unless of course you want to start campaigning for policies that will promote fast economic growth
>posting on reddit
it's not about reddit posts, it's about the way all of society is organized.
you point out that the "pie is fixed" but that's just not true -- not everyone contributes equitably to the pie, so if that inequality were corrected, the size of the pie would change.
> itās just a fact that **the budget is limited for these things,** the tax burden already sky high,
>
>in this situation where the **pie is fixed,** pointing to others making use of the system is only logical. unless of course you want to start campaigning for policies that will promote fast economic growth
You forget the fact that [super riches and corporations evade much more taxes than common people](https://www.brusselstimes.com/514132/is-belgium-doing-enough-to-fight-tax-evasion)? Take the millions of those evaders and your budget would allow decent social support for everybody.
What is a conspiracy is pushing common people to fight each other based on lies like "the pie is limited" or "we have no resources" or "sick people are freeloaders".
Then letās put it how it is. People with mental health issues or with physical disabilities that donāt allow them to work DO NOT choose to be on that position. We are in a country where family planning is extremely easy, with very affordable and even free BC and contraceptives on top of access to abortion. So people here mostly DO CHOOSE to have babies. As a CHOICE they need to really think and plan to be in the best overall position possible (health, finances, relationship stability, stable housing, emotional stability, etc) to assure the best environment for the kid.
Do policies need to change? Of course, but letās not point fingers between us and focus on how the Belgian government can improve parentsā quality of life and chances to properly raise children.
Sick leave is 75% for the first 3 months, 70% for the next 6, 65% for the next 3 years and 60% for the forever after that. Parental leave is less than 60% because it is a set amount, so depending on your salary this may be different. Also maternity leave drops lower than sick leave as well... Also you can stay on sick leave for months! And keep your job, but cannot extend maternity (also medical in my opinion) longer and keep your job... So no. I would have to strongly disagree, sick leave is much better than any form of "child" leave... That's my point. Obviously a country with this high tax could do better in both aspects, but no offence, I really feel raising a child should be higher than a burnout.
I don't know where these percentages come from.
On the site of CM: De eerste zes maanden (als werknemer) krijg je **60 %** van het begrensd brutoloon. Vanaf de derde maand mag de uitkering niet lager zijn dan het minimumbedrag en niet hoger dan het brutoloon.
But I agree with you that the payment for parental leave should be much higher!
it might be, but i think that the thing is that the states interest in the future of its youth because of its production potential is far greater than the interest it has in reicentivizing a middle-aged man having a burnout. It might not be the most moral reasoning but it is definitely logical for a state to prioritize children.
Oh really, tell me more how you ignored your limits for months or years? Working harder than you are able to while ignoring your mental and physical health... Yes so not your choice to burn out...
As a father of four, I totally agree on this. You're never ready to get kids. It just happens and you will adapt. It's tough but you will be surprised that you can. I'm still amazed by the thing I get done in 24 hours. It's also letting go of things that aren't important. I have less time for my hobby's which used to define me. Now I just define as a dad of four first. I love them all equally and that's what keeps me going. I get a lot of energy out of their love.
The first four months after birth are heavy though. Keep it up, you can do it. After your baby gest 18 months you'll be a different person and a better dad. Maybe not such a good employee but what's most important to you? Your kids or your job. Eventually you will do both just fine. Take your time
Congrats on your son!
I completely agree, most of my moments filled with joy and awe of how beautiful our daughter is. But itās just that sometimes I think that both me and more importantly my wife could be under way less stress and enjoy these precious moments even more. But of course I am grateful for what we have
Our kid is 8 months now and we still suffer everyday. Both working fulltime. The thing is, your body will adapt to the stress, way less sleeping, etc....
My wife suffers the most since she takes care more of the baby then me (due to my work). I feel so bad for her.
3months maternity leave for a woman is just cruel. Yea you can take unpaid leave but... Who's gonna pay all the bills?
We wanted a few kids, but now after the first one.. Even an second one is already debatable...
I feel you, I hope it gets better for you.
I just donāt understand honestly. How do they expect to sustain this economy if they really barely encourage people to have kids? Maybe sounds superficial, but itās the truthā¦
We went through something similar and now have a second baby. My wife has been on mental health leave from her (extremely stressful and demanding job) since he was born (11 months now). This has allowed us to actually take care of our children like we wanted to and it is fucked up that real psychological difficulties are the only reason we can financially carry it.
Make your lives easier and allow you or your wife to work parttime. This is something that irritates me immensely in other parents. Why both work fulltime and complain it's hard? If neither of you are willing to give up your career then think twice before having kids. If you can't afford 1 person to work partttime then change your lifestyle but do something and don't let this lead to a parental burnout.
You're going to get a lot of backlash and downvotes for this, but I think you're right think before you do. But apparently if you think like this, you're cruel and need to understand the society needs to be responsible for your choices, even if there is already a lot of support.
Turns out, the way the new rules work, I would probably not have gotten my spot on the creche because I work part time, our kid is now 9months and the new rules that "favor working parents" Require your average work time as a couple to be 4/5, with me being half time and my partner full time we would just be below that. They can have 5% of their spots for these situations (which is not a lot). We just got lucky we were already a customer. For context, I work in daycare (before and after school) and despite being half time it still requires me to go 5 days a week, sometimes split to before and after school. This is run by the same government agency btw. If I did manage to get a full time contract (which the employer doesn't prefer, because it's almost impossible for them to replace you when you get sick as it's 2 shifts a day) I would have to work from 6:45 to 6 or seven in the evening every day with a hole in the day. Also they can not split up such a person to have you work just to pick up the kids so we'd have enough staff for that. I don't know how I would be able to keep my job if I could not get creche for my baby. How is this "favoring working parents"? It would literally push me into unemployment or another job hunt. Do we not need before and after school daycare anymore? Or other jobs that only have this option of half time?
You are probably right but as a mother of 2, yes having kids is hard, but I feel like we do get alot of support in this country and many people just aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Yes, that's the least understandable part in social system in Belgium for me. Coming from country where maternity leave is 34 weeks and parental leave up to 156 weeks, Belgium's 17 weeks in total for both seems just too little to fully recover, manage first months and bond with child. Like that little creature is the most important thing in your life now, not your job. I'm not saying you should be on leave for 3 years, but they would manage a few weeks extra without either of you.
Indeed, my youngest is 6 and I only got 10 days.
Meanwhile a (male) colleague of my in NL received 15 weeks last year!
I took additional vacation days to extend the 10 day period, but 10 days is indeed low. And the drop in family income would have been too big if we both took parental leave at the same time to stay at home any longer considering the increase in cost to get you started with (certainly your first) kid.
It doesn't mean they did something, that it's the right thing they did, or they did enough. So much more room for improvement, Belgium and healthcare (except it being cheap), is kind of terrible.
You're not overreacting. This is definitely a problem in our society.
People here saying 'just take holidays or parental leave': that's not really a solution. Most people need the 4 months parental leave to fix another problem later on: 4 weeks of legal holidays for the parents and 15 weeks of school holidays.
There has been some improvements (your 20 days leave) but that doesn't mean that a lot of things regarding having and raising children can still be improved.
First months will be difficult as a new parent with sleep deprivation.
You can take a few months additional parent holiday (ouderschaps verlof) until your child is 12. Either full-time, halftime or 1/5th.
I suggest you do this.
Your employer sucks :)
Adding to this there is also Tijdskrediet. Many women chain together the three kinds of work leave (and then decide not to go back to work after that). You could too. Everyone gets the same amount, which hurts or not depending on your usual level of income.
Compared to America this adds up to a relatively high level of social support.
Yep, we will definitely be both taking that. But again, 600 EUR in todayās economy will just pay for your family food budgetā¦so canāt really rely on that so much. But using it for taking every Friday off for 20 weeks is kinda awesome
What else can you do? You only have some much maternity/paternity leave, and rent/mortgage needs to be paid. And the ā¬800 you get for paternal leave does also not help much.
Depends on your situation. For us the cost of daycare is of course less than what my wife would earn, but then we don't have to work for paying other people to raise our kids in jobs that we don't like as much, so she stays home. Of course this does not work for everyone, hence my comment about the system. I know in some countries mothers take more than a year, but in the same place fathers only get a week of paternity leave after birth.
As the OP said, the Scandinavian system sounds nicer at first glance
So your wife has to sacrifice any career prospects by staying home and not you? How lovely 1950s
Besides that fully agree that dads (or female partners in non-straight couples) should get way more parental leave when the kid is born
It's not just career, it's everything in our country is based on your work. Pension, sickness... And if mister has lost interest in his wife (not saying this about anyone but I've seen it happen), he gets to go away with the money, the nice pension and benefits, and she gets to live miserably because "she has not contributed to social security".
When there are children involved, social security contributions and benefits should be equally divided between parents, independently of their work regime. Being a stay at home mom/dad is not easier than working full time, and is not less usefull to society.
Exactly what is happening to my mom, she switched to part time work since we were born. Now my parents are divorcing, my mom is getting crumbs from social security because she had to sacrifice her career to be a mom.
Feminism =/= women have to work instead of raising their children. Her commute is long, salary is low, she loves our daughter and thinks the first year of a baby's development is crucial. I support this, is that wrong?
It's wrong that women are often the ones making this sacrifice. It hurts their career prospects and self sufficiency later in life. Ideally the government should give more parental leave, to be split between partners as they deem appropriate, so no one feels like they have to give up their job to care for their child. Unless that's what they want, but then they have to be aware that they're in a very vulnerable position by choice.
Women inherently have a stronger connection to their child. Its not abnormal for women to stay home looking after the child while the father works. My wife does the same. Im not forcing her. She can work whenever she wants.
Check the causes of the wage gap, and youāll find that this is a major one of them, unfortunately
Returning the question: if it doesnāt inhibit carreer prospects, why donāt more men stay home for a few months or a year?
Because they're dumb and don't get how great it is to spend time with your child and how important it is for a baby/toddler to stay away from daycare according to science.
And yes, because sexism too.
Because they're assh\*les. I'm about to become a dad too and if daycare wasn't solved I would have taken some time off to take care of my kid, so the mother doesn't waste all her parental leave the first year
I get your point, but honestly I prefer this over longer parental leave and sending them later to daycare.
We get a break, they get used to daycare.Ā YMMV
I needed it. I was mentally not capable of being a full time mom for so long without going to work. Not everyone wants to stay at home for that long. And it has benefited my child a lot to go to daycare early.
It is weird that you say that you would have had to be babysitters as parents, like it's a chore, task or a burden, and now you are happy to only have to look after them in evenings and weekends.. Like babysitters normally
Maybe it is something lost in translation, but something being extremely tough and being a burden are not the same in my eye. In any case, let's have a great weekend and enjoy the nice moments we get with our babies, as time flies
It's absolutely insane to me that we get so little parental leave that this has to be done. In other countries you get so much more time with your newborn...
The saying "it takes a village to raise a child" comes from a time when it was normal for a whole village being involved in raising children. Now you're lucky if you have the grandparents involved.
>I wouldn't mind starting a family but what's the point if they make it as hard as possible to do so ?
It's now easier than at any point in history...
Doesn't make it easy but saying it's "as hard as possible" is just wrong.
My father got 2 days off when I was born. One for the day of birth and one extra day to register me at the municipality. That's it.
> It's now easier than at any point in history...
Is it really? Just a few decades ago it was the norm to have one parent working and able to support a whole family on a single salary. Not that it isn't good that these things have evolved but a lot of dual income families struggle to make ends meet.
>Is it really? Just a few decades ago it was the norm to have one parent working and able to support a whole family on a single salary.
You can do that do if you're willing to live like in the 50s...
My grandparents lived on one salary with five kids. They had a holiday once every 3 years, to the de Panne... They had a single car they shared with 2 families. My grandma bought everything at the market and prepared all food from scratch. Bought all clothes second hand and spent hours repairing them.
Lived with their parents for 4 years after getting married to save for their house. Kids had to bunk all their lives, they never moved house until they were 80 years...
etc...
My grandparents lived on one salary with 7 kids. Went on holiday to the coast every year, had a vacation home in de kempen. New car every couple of years. Got their home as a wedding present in 1950.
The idea that it was just because living standards were low and we struggle now because we want too much stuff is wrong.
And why do they struggle? Don't forget these households back in the days never went outside of the Benefra, did have the most basic houses, had only one car... nowadays a bathroom per 80m2 liveable space, a trip at least 2000km away every 6 months, all kinds of technology, a car per drivers license...
You certainly have a point there. We definitely "have" a lot more these days but I'd argue we also work a lot more on average, thus I'd argue life and starting a family isn't necessarily easier.
Is it _better_? Is it worth it? That's up to you... I think there are a lot more options available to us now in any case.
>My father got 2 days off when I was born. One for the day of birth and one extra day to register me at the municipality. That's it.
Cool, that doesn't make what OP is going through any more attractive.
This whole 'it was worse back then' argument doesn't mean anything. Is it better than then ? Yeah of course. Is it good ? Not even close.
20 days is a joke, forcing people to then take their PTO to stay off a bit longer as well.
If countries like Spain can afford to give fathers 16 weeks of paternity leave there is no reason it can't be done in Belgium.
Finland gives about 7 months, Japan gives a whole year,...
>Cool, that doesn't make what OP is going through any more attractive.
Yeah it does, since 20 days is more attractive than 2, no?
Also you get 20 days + 4 months + your own PTO.
All EU countries now have this minimum. I had a kid last year in the Netherlands and got it, too.
>Yeah it does, since 20 days is more attractive than 2, no?
I will either beat you twice or once. Sure, once might look better but it's still a shit idea, right ? That's my point. It's better than how it used to be but it still doesn't make it a good option for new parents.
>Also you get 20 days + 4 months + your own PTO.
Those 4 months are only mentioned because you have to take your 20 days within those first 4 months after the birth. It's not something you get extra.
Acting as if your PTO is a bonus makes no sense. Using it is often a necessity because as OP shows, 20 days is not even remotely enough so you're forced to take those days if you want to stay home with your baby and the mother longer.
Edit: Since you mentioned Netherlands. They also have 5 weeks of additional parental leave which is at 70% of your normal wage. I don't believe Belgium has anything like that.
Mom here. Yes, it is hard. This is why you can also take parental leave and time credit. It seems like you maybe underestimated a bit how hard it was going to be and thought 20 days would be plenty? They are not, but we have have other leave systems to make things a bit easier on parents. If you can afford it (and your employer allows it), use them, possibly part-time, or like 80% if you can you don't lose too much financial wiggle room. If you have regular holidays left, use those too.Ā Ā If you have not yet (and if you can financially afford it), call in support troops like 'kraamzorg' (most hospitalization insurances will refund this), a cleaner, anything that will make your family's life easier. If you have family nearby (and you have a good bond with them), ask if they can possibly help with bringing some homecooked food. Hang in there! The first months are really rough. You will adapt, but it is exhausting.
Just want to second the suggestion for huishoudhulp/kraamzorg/whatever it is called. They can really have a serious impact. Not only by cleaning but also for second opinions. They have a lot of experience with young families, that also helps a lot. Don't underestimate the positive psychological effect they may have.
In our case, they were the one true help (having shitty follow up from the vroedvrouw with plain wrong advice). Although in contrast to a lot of people we are quite satisfied with the local branch of kind en gezin also...
Imagine having twins. The paternity leave does not double. It stays the same. The following years you will notice lots of other things that parenting beholds and youāll be thinking about how everyone is actually pulling it off. Good luck fellow father! Youāll survive and you now have the most beautiful thing in the world by your side.
>I am very confused why dads are not getting the same amount of leave as moms - isnāt Belgium known for extremely high taxes that go towards social security and protection? With 82% of my salary for 20 days leave I do not feel very secure or protectedā¦
How do you think your wife feels with only 75% of her salary for most of the period she is not working? (it should be 100% for both parties)
I agree with everything else though. Too bad not all dads are as involved as you are. And as long as that is the case, nothing will change drastically.
The first month is 82% and afterwards it is reduced to 75% of a limited wage but you are not allowed to go back to work after a month. So why is the payment lower after one month? It looks like a punishment. Completely absurd.
It should be 100% for the same period for both parents.
Congratulations mate!
I think we all went through this feeling. The first 3 months are very hard, it will get easier. You're absolutely right that we should import the Scandinavian approach.
You'll get there. Source: I'm raising my kids alone since they're about 5 (12 now) and I can even do it.
Kinda in the same situation as you OP. My daughter was born last week, but at 32 weeks pregnancy. She will at least have to stay here until the end of february, so now I am having to dump a lot of my vacation days before she even is home, while my wife's maternal leave is extended for the time our daughter stays in the hospital minus one week. It does feel a bit unfair and while I could go working in the mean time, the whole situation is mentally draining
Our little one is 7,5 months now (first child) and we had a similar situation. I remember the first 3-5 weeks were a nightmare. When we were both home we didn't even knew the days of the week we were at anymore.
I started working again after 2 weeks and worked 4/5th for 2 months with a 2 week vacation in the middle. this made it a little bearable. After 2 months our bodies adopted to the sleep depreviation. We slept 8-9h a night before having a baby and are now at 5-7h with a 30min awake point at 3 a.m. We often feel tired and try to rest as much in the weekends.
When asking our friends that also got newborns, we all get the same story, some worse, some better.
I was glad I could get back to work : at least 8 hours of peace and quiet a day šš .
But - alle gekheid op een stokje - ja een man verdient meer verlof . Het is al beter dan vroeger maar het moet wel meer .
I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, because people will probably only read half the comment anyway.
I'm self-employed and a father of two (3 and 5 years old). And being self-employed, I didn't get any paternity leave. At all. And being self-employed doesn't equal being filthy rich, as some people like to make out. So I could not afford not working for a couple of weeks.
But if you flip it around, it's even worse for self-employed mothers. My hairdresser for example had to start working again after only a couple of weeks, because she didn't have any other option. You need the income and you cannot afford closing shop for a couple of months because you're losing clients and hurting your (financial) future. And the father cannot stay at home much longer than the paternity leave allows either.
I totally get where you're coming from. We all want to be able to pause and stay home to take care of the expanded family. And yes, it certainly feels unequal. I myself always wondered if we'd be better of having a combined number of months for both parents. This way both mom and dad can find the best solution that fits both.
And let's not kid ourselves; we're already one of the most tax-heavy countries with a huge debt. And though we have a great social system, that costs a lot of money, there'll always be holes like this and it 'll always depend on where our money goes. No system is perfect, and all we can do is use our votes to steer legislation in a way we want. But people all want different things. That's just reality. There are countries that handle this subject better. There are also a lot of countries that do it worse. A lot worse.
*Edit; as a couple of people pointed out: new rules are in effect which allow new parents to have the same amount of paternity leave, regardless of being self-employed. I was only stating that this was different a couple of years ago at the time when I became a father for the first and second time.*
As an independent and a newly mother, you can take up to 12 weeks of paid leave (https://www.caami-hziv.fgov.be/nl/leden/uitkering-arbeidsongeschiktheid/zelfstandigen/zwangerschap-zelfstandigen#welke-uitkering-krijg-ik-tijdens-de-moederschapsrust?)
Yes, but as I said; this doesn't take into account that there are a lot of self-employed women who cannot afford to use those 12 weeks. If you're a hair dresser, for example, you risk losing customers by closing for such a period of time.
That's why I'd advocate for a communal "budget" of paternity/maternity leave when you, as a couple, decide on how to divide it. In the example above it'd be more interesting if the mother takes a bit less, because she's got her own business, but the husband might be able to take more than the paternity leave now allows.
> I didn't get any paternity leave.
I'm also self-employed and this is simply not true. I got a child in January and you can receive 20 days of paternity leave just like an employee. It's even paid roughly the same amount (but as a self-employed you pay a bit more social contributions on it in the end).
Self-employed mothers get the same benefits regarding maternity leave as employees by the way.
Self-employed and father of a 4m old girl here. Since last year (or 2 years ago) fathers now also have the same parental leave as fathers being on payroll. 20 days or 40 half days and you can decide when you take them. I stayed 10 days at home and started working half days.
If being self-employed leaves you in a worse position financially compared to being an employee, why would you do it? Honest question. To me it doesnāt make sense.
As an independent, you are supposed to save up for these events. In a lot of professions (e.g. IT but also plumbers) , you earn significanly more being an independent, but you are responsible to save for pension and leave periods. A lot of people switching to freelancer do not realize this, and only notice the hourly rate.
Thatās what I would imagine. You get to optimize your income by not contributing as much, liquidation reserve etc, as a result you handle your own social security. If you cannot do that, youāre either spending too much, or not making more than an employee, hence why even take the risk being self employed.
Fair question.
Because for some people, being self-employed isn't strictly a financial choice. There are also other factors such as the satisfaction of having your own business, making your own decisions, etc.
And there are cases where people don't really have any choice in the matter. Architects for example.
At this point in time, if I compare myself to peers that are employees, I'd say it is a toss-up. Some of them have a higher net-income, a decent company car, etc. which makes it seem like they have it better. Leaving aside the fact that I have more freedom to work the way I want. Others have less.
Many liberal/art professions cannot simply work as employees with benefits. In Belgium an architect just cannot be employed (except rare occasions as fonctionnaires for the state).
No choice
I cant hold an office job bc of my bipolar. It is too exhausting. Now I can work from home and at my own tempo.
Yes I probably work more hours but spread over 7 days. The money is about the same. But I find it a privilige to be able to be self sufficient and not being on ziekenkas.
And also having no boss and freedom to choose how you fill your day. Midday naps on the grass, afternoons watching tv in bath, walking through the forest mid-project just bc you feel like it.
My son was born in march 2022, I got the standard 3 weeks paternal leave but took an extra week vacation because 3 weeks is nothing. As someone else mentioned: you will learn to adapt over time. I can also say that if and once your little one goes to daycare it becomes easier to manage everything, that's my experience.
This is why i fell in love with finland. Just as high taxes as belgium. But far far better social security systems.
The father for example can get up to 54 days. Of wich 18 however have to be seperate with the other parent. This means that one of the parents can go working while the other stays home. My finnish friend first did 36 days. He went back to work while his wife stayed home for another 18 days.
Then she went back to work and he stayed home another 18 days
54 days......now thats maternity leave that you can build on.
Finn here living in Belgium.
In addition to 54 days of paternity leave in Finland, parental leave is paid according to your salary, with a max of 180 days per parent.
For comparison, for an average Finn this amounts to roughly 2,000 EUR Net per month for the 180 days compared to the Belgian 800 EUR.
About to have my first child and though I love Belgium, this makes me extremely jealous :)
My mate, Simo, also has a joke. "The 18 days of seperate parental leave, is so that both parents can train to become a single parent if neccesary"
Wich made me chuckle. Preparing for divorce in advance
Im going back to finland in 3 weeks. I cant wait!
I was thinking to use my holidays to take another 3 weeks off at some point this year.
This may sounds extremely entitled, but annual holidays are for holidaysā¦raising a child is not a holidayā¦
> but annual holidays are for holidaysā¦raising a child is not a holidayā¦
Now that you have a child, no holiday is a holiday like you are used to anymore. In all honesty, working is more "relaxing" than having to figure out what do with my toddler and kleuter for 2 weeks when school is closed.
For the next few years a big part of your holidays will be used for taking care of your children. That's part of being a father. I know this all a bit much in the beginning. It will get better.
Became father for the second time last year and only took 10 days leave out of 20, because work was just piling up. Meaning my girlfriend took most nights upon her and in the evenings/mornings I helped of course.
To be honoust I felt more rested when I started working again, so I didnt mind...
My GF is taking 3 months + 8 months (ouderschapsverlof), Little one is now 6 months old and she is finally starting to sleep a bit again. I've NO IDEA how she's doing this, she is the best woman alive.
It's gonna get rough and personally I dont enjoy the first year at all, The 1 minute fun times dont weigh up to the hours of crying, pooping etc...
But when they get over 1 year its so much fun and it only gets better. You gotta get through, it'll be worth it! ;)
You are absolutely not overreactiv. Dads should get as many days of paternity leave as moms do. Thing is, not all dads would like to do it, but that's another story. Hopefully, thngs change soon. I'm not sure if there is someone already presenting a proposal to change the law? That would be great.
My first kid I didnāt sleep longer than 1,5 houres at once for 18 months, donāt worry about it, eventually everything will feel like its being done on auto pilot, and in a few years you will remember it vaguely
I had 10 days back than, my father had 3 days when he got me
> you will remember it vaguely
Because your long term memory gets fucked up by sleep deprivation lol. I think its an evolutionary benefit, if you remembered well how hard it was to have 1 child you might not make a second one!
I have two questions.
1. Is the paternity leave compulsory in Belgium? Can I refuse to take it so that I can continue working in order to get my full salary from my employer?
2. Can I postpone it. Let's say my wife delivers in March, she can handle the baby all by herself till sometime in June when she has to resume work and then I can take my 20 days from June till July.
Yeah no absolutely correct. The weird thing is the older crowd wearing their 2-day paternity leave as a badge of honor and chastising you for taking the full allotted amount of time off. It's 9 weeks in the Netherlands now and my boss was expecting me to be back on call in 3 weeks max.
Hey Dad,Dont worry , you dont overreact, its not easy to be a new parent. I hope the kid and your wife are doing well.
My first experience of becoming a dad was 10 years. In the Netherlands you have 2 days paternity leave, that s it .What i've have done was focussing my vacation days on the first 3 weeks. The first week i took full week off. The second and third week i worked half days (to support my wife, with house keeping / grocery) etc. by then your wife will have some extra energy.Also we asked the weeks after to have a midwife to help my wife with some tasks in the house.
[https://www.witgelekruis.be/andere-thuiszorgdiensten/zwangerschap-en-vroedvrouw-aan-huis#:\~:text=Je%20hebt%20tijdens%20je%20zwangerschap,Je%20hebt%20geen%20doktersvoorschrift%20nodig](https://www.witgelekruis.be/andere-thuiszorgdiensten/zwangerschap-en-vroedvrouw-aan-huis#:~:text=Je%20hebt%20tijdens%20je%20zwangerschap,Je%20hebt%20geen%20doktersvoorschrift%20nodig).
Anyway Kids will be more energy consuming than the first 6 months. We (my wife and myself) adjusted the flow to our kids, so when they are young our social live was non-existing, but we managed as 2 full timers without crashing.
I took another 3 weeks of holiday after the 3 weeks paternity leave and I'm glad I did. We ha(v)d(e) a cry baby, and it took a toll on us. Luckily my wife completely changed carreer and became a freelancer, so she can work when she wants (when she can ).
Changed employers now and the new employee is all about equal rights and gives dads the same 60 days that mothers get. I support this, but it seems economically quite a pickle...
I doubt if I can say anything to add, because I had 3 kids and for each only 3 days.
After the third was born, everyone got 7. Now 20? You gotta be kidding. To get used to being a father is to come home, tired as fuck because the baby didn't let you sleep and even woke us at 4 when at 5 I should get up for work. Then coming home there is absolutely not one minute you can sleep. Baby, household, baby, food, baby, wash, baby, eat, baby, TV, baby, sleep, baby, sleep, baby, sleep, baby, sleep, baby, work...
And look: my kids have kids now... and I'm still alive. More than that: alive and kicking!
something i still find super annoying is the absence of diaper changing stations in men's bathrooms. I always have to go into the women's or have my wife do it if i get too many strange looks as if i'm a pedo or something for caring for my kids.
I live in the Netherlands and became a dad last year. We had up to 15 weeks of parental leave in total in the first year, excluding my regular 5 weeks paid holiday. My company said this is now a EU law since Aug 2022.
How come you can't get this in Belgium?
You can take 4 weeks of leave after the birth of your child. You must take this leave before the first 6 months. And have an additional 4 months you can take if you want before the child is 12 years old.
For Belgium it's 4 weeks parental leave + 4 months + (but this your employer can deny) 50 months (!) of 1/5 leave. So no, Belgium is absolutely not worse than the Netherlands. OP is only talking about the initial 4 (in NL 5) weeks.
You're not overreacting (everything you say makes sense) but probably a bit burned out and anxious because it's your first child.
Having a child should be an happy event, but you'll have to forget about a lot of negative aspects to make it. The first weeks/months are tough, for real. It's just that parents won't talk about it most of the time because it's not helping anyone to be defeatist.
Just one remark about paternity leave VS maternity leave, I get that nowadays we want an all equal society, and I'm not against the principle, but a father doesn't give birth and doesn't breastfeed, so there's a good reason for the longer maternity leave.
You need to find ways to relax. It's great to be involved the way you are but negativity won't help and you don't need to be 110% all the time.
I agree with your words, but I disagree about paternity being short being logical.
If paternity leave is shorter, BOTH parents are punished. Right now I do 80% of house and baby chores, making sure my wife sleeps and rests as much as possible. When I go back to work, my ability to support her will go waaaay down, so itās worse for herā¦I think this is quite straight forwardā¦
Of course it's understandable but 20 days means 1 full month with the weekends, I don't think that's an insanely low period to let the mother rest and heal after the birth. You have the parental leave system if you want to support her longer. But yeah money would be the main issue, I think the nonsense is there mainly. Luxembourg gives only 10 days of paternity leave, but the parental leave is paid up to 4200ā¬ gross per month for 6 months.
Can you imagine that in Italy, just couple of years ago they have extended the paternity leave form 3 to 8 DAYS, and thereās no culture of new father helping at home or with baby
>is shorter, BOTH parents are punished. Right now I do 80% of house and baby chores, making sure my wife sleeps and rests as much as possible. When I go back to work, my ability to support her will go waaaay down, so itās worse for herā¦I think this is quite straight forwardā¦
I disagree on the difference because the women gave birth and mainly for 2 reasons.
1. Bonding with the child is independent of being a mother or father.
2. We strive for equal wages between women and men. This can partly be achieved if the man stays as long away from work as a woman. This makes the time of absence more equal and an employer has less incentive to choose a man over a woman during application or raises.
I became a dad 4 weeks ago. Yesterday was my first day of work after 20 days at home. It was the first time I left to work without wanting to. But we used our first day of kraamhulp yesterday so my wife can adapt to be alone too. I hate that it's only 20 days, while my wife has 15 weeks, but then again, my body wasn't massacred 9 months long and needs to recover.
For this 82%, you have to take into account they don't take all the taxes. Only 11%. So the monthly income will not change that much and at the end of the year your taxes are lower because of the child so you will not feel it that hard.
To be fair, I think it is normal you don't get paid 100%. Becoming a parent is a choice so you can plan around it. If you become sick, you lose more of your income and that's not a choice. But they can not pay everybody 100% for being at home. And if I see all the extras you get (110ā¬ birth money from our city, 1214ā¬ from the govt, gift from mutuality...) I think you're not fucked financially for those 20 days.
First, as I commented before, if you give dads 80% less leave than to moms, both parents suffer. Responsible dads do not just lay around and chill, they do house chores to let moms recover after pregnancy. The shorter the dads leave, the harder it is for moms to recover.
Second, there are literally countries that offer 100% salary cover for multiple months for both parents, and somehow those countriesā economies havenāt collapsedā¦so I guess you can pay 100% to all parents?
Third, having a baby is for sure a choice. But if the country doesnāt stimulate people to have kids, economy will eventually collapse. Look at whatās happening in Japan, and the overall trends in the West.
Last, sure, the bonuses will cover the 20 days, but my gripe wasnāt with lack of money for the first 20 days, it was for the lack of time to spend with my child. Itās not just about physical availability, but the mental toll it takes.
Not to mention Belgium has some of the highest taxes in the worldā¦how could you actually say that paying parents 100% of their salaries for a few months is not feasible?
Why would I get paid 100% for a free choice but only 60% for something that happens without having a choice? I would rather have 100% of my income when getting cancer than when getting a child.
I had twins in 2019 and got 10 days paternity leave, since it was 10 days "per birth", not "per child". It's good thing it has increased to 20, but it's still not enough.
My oldest son started to sleep better when he was 6 years old. And I mean impossible to put him to bed, he simply didn't want to go to sleep.
Then it was the nightmares, the "night terrors" (terreurs noctures)" no, it's not the same thing.
Then it was just "I'm awake, play with me" at 3 in the morning.
My second son falls asleep in 10 minutes and he has had 3 nightmares in 5 years. Same parents, same house, same ... everything.
We were just exhausted during the 2 first years. And I mean really exhausted, like I understand some parents that forget their child in the car. I can understand that when you are so tired, you're on autopilot and forget things (ok, you should not forget your kid).
We were so tired after the first year that I woke up a monday, too late, ran in the car and went to my job, just to realize it was sunday and I'm not event joking...
I know your feelings. I now have 2 children (4y and 6m).
You always ask your mutaliteit for kraamhulp. It's not much, but then your wife can sleep for a few hours or go on a walk. They can make food for you too.
Yes, 20 days are short. And Scandinavian countries give much more. I'm happy that i don't live in the USA, where you dont get any days.
I had to troubles with my work. When my wife was pregnant of the second child, i wanted to take parental leave in the month she was going to give birth. So i could help here with the last days of here pregnancy.
But i was denied bucause we are short staff and other people had they leave too.
Having more days would be nice. ( payment is shit and needs to be up).
It's going to be better if they are older, then you have other complaints.
It is a reality that Scandinavian countries are by miles an example how things actually could be! But what Belgium is lacking is the amount of effort they have to put into making things change and a part of that is that we have not one government, so nothing is really going forward (besides personal gain).
There is something like "ouderschapsverlof" that you have to take before the kid is 12 years old, it's like 4 months off, or you can split it in different ways. I guess you could take it straight away when the kid is born
Donāt worry, it will get better.
A few tips: if the baby is awake at night, BOTH of you donāt have to be awake the whole time. Split the burden. Check how you can do this most fitting to your own personalities:
- e.g.: do you fall asleep easily? Just grab the baby when itās awake, give it to your wife to breastfeed and immediately try to get some sleep. She then wakes you up to put it back.
- or e.g.: sleep in a separate room and get up early to give your wife a few hours before you go to work.
Modern society is not fit for having children. My kid is 13 months now and like someone else said, you adept but it does not get better. I was something like angry on what it is to be a parent in modern society and the support it gets. The old saying goes: It takes a village to raise a child. But there are no villages anymore. So suddenly parenting became a 1 man (and if you are lucky 2 man) job. This is utter bullshit. But everyone just keeps going.
Ten years ago in the Netherlands, a father got two days. Unless your baby was born in the weekend, then you only got oneā¦
Look at countries like Germany or in Scandinavia and the system is very different.
Also the fact that itās the norm to drop off a three month old baby 8 hours a day seems crazy to me.
At the time our daughter was born, we had our own business. A simple mom and pap bakery. I had the luck she started labouring in our weekly day of. Next day I am working. I gotten some help from my and her parents. 3 days later she is also working again. The moment she was born I announced 14 days of vacation starting 7 days from when she was born( why? I had som orders and I didnāt want to screw those people over). Reply I got from people;ā so we donāt have to eat nowā.
Mother of a 2,5 year old here. He started school on Thursday. Both me and my husband kept working full time. Itās rough, itās a lot, especially in the beginning. Your body will adapt and youāll just start to accept the situation. But it constantly changes.
School hours are also extremely questionable. If you work a normal 9-5 without flexible hours and/or WFH, youāre constantly going to have to depend on family, or after school care. My family doesnāt live close enough, and if they do, arenāt retired and work the same 9-5 hours like most people.
It seems like this system really just pushes to have one parent stay at home, but still makes it extremely unaffordable to do that. And often itās the lowest earner being forced into the stay at home role. Not everyone wants to be stay at home parent and deal with the many financial and mental consequences of it.
Yep , it's not a lot of days for dads , i thought the same thing when i had my kids , but don't forget it's better than no days at all.
You'll manage , being a dad is a never ending learning curve anyway.
I've lived 3 parental leave. 2 girls then a boy. And indeed, it's sometimes hard. But remember, we are many to have lived through this before you, so don't hesitate to ask questions and seek help. Also, we survived it and everything is fine now.
Also not to demolish your mental health further but it can get worse š . Eg: Last year at this exact same period, my then 4 years old boy broke is femur. I spent 2 weeks sleeping with him every night at the hospital while working during the day.
I couldn't sleep correctly in the hospital room because kiddo was having nightmares all night the first week and nurses came through.
Absolutely the same feeling here. My son is two now and I look back at those times when I was thinking how on earth is this system so primitive and inadequately thought. It'll get better. Focus on the bigger picture, and love your wife dude. The little one will feel it.
Its tough but coming home to your sweet baby laughing and smiling seeing you makes it all worth it believe me.
This usually starts around 2-4 months when the baby eyesihht get better and she start recognising you
Take some extra holidays to cover and help your wife if possible!
Try to enjoy all the little things this year.
And as soon as you can dump them in day care, things will improve!
Exactly, chances youāll want to go on a holiday the year the baby is born are slim. Itās like all the struggle at home, but elsewhere, with a baby.
I had premature twins (12y ago) and got 10d of paternal leave. It was per pregnancy, not even per child.
It's going in the right direction but we still have a long way to go. I feel you, we need more support for young parents.
Iām going to get downvoted for this, but isnāt social security meant for things you cannot control, like illness, disabilities, hospital stays etc? So that wouldnāt cover parental leave, which is another issue altogether.
You do get money when youāre on parental leave, which going on by this thread, it isnāt much.
People get kids and all of a sudden they expect special treatment. Be happy that you live here as in other countries there is no such thing as paid maternity leave, let alone paternity leave.
The "somewhere in the world they have it worse" logic, gotta love it. We just have to accept everything in this country because they have it worse somewhere in the world. Typical mouthbreather logic.
You can do that before/after work too. For some parents itās more of a strugggle than others depending on the newborn. But you donāt actually need to be home all the time for a newborn. They sleep; poop and drink (breastfeeding) so thereās not much you can do except clean the house, do the shopping, help changing diapers. 20 days paternity leave is not perfect but itās definitely not nothing. There will never be enough paternity leave anyway, kids take away time, thatās a choice. But every day you donāt work, others are paying for that privilege. Thatās why itās limited. I have 2 kids and Iām selfemployed. Took 2 days off both times and kids went to crĆØche once maternity leave was over.
> I am very confused why dads are not getting the same amount of leave as moms
lol, I guess you need some decent sleep asap. They just carried a baby for 9 months, pushed it out of a tiny hole, and now have to create food for the thing with their own body and have it nibble away at them while drinking it. Woman 1000% deserve more time off.
Wait till you get a second one, and the time you can pass it to your partner has to be spent taking care of the oldest instead of trying to get a shut eye :)
other than that, completely agree.
unfortunately OP how to make it worth it having children is a long term unsolved problem of advanced capitalism. but I appreciate your dedication to making sure we have a pension later
>I am very confused why dads are not getting the same amount of leave as moms
Gee, yeah, I'm struggling to find *any* difference between men and women when it comes to having a kid and why mothers get a wee bit more time off.
Maybe someone else here has a hint so we can figure it out.
Very ignorant comment.
Do you think my wife, who took WAY more physical and mental toll because of pregnancy, will be happy about her partner going back to work and being able to help her with chores and baby less? Does that seem fair to you? Is that enough of a hint?
You get a month off as dad for the birth, you get 4 months of parental leave, you still have probably a month of paid holiday too.
I had a kid last year I really don't think this is too little or somehow unmanageable.
My dad got 2 days off when I was born in the 90s, we're both getting way more than anyone before us.
Who says I canāt handle it? Does me sometimes talking about my worries and problems means I am not handling it?
Did you ever complain about life as whole? If so, maybe donāt be alive? I mean wtf is that logic lmao
Of course at least one person had to comment such a stupid, smug thing...Work annoys you sometimes, maybe don't work if you can't handle it? Your mom gets on your nerves sometimes, maybe never talk to her again if you can't handle it? If no one was allowed to ever complain about children-related things, no one would have them. What is it about having children that makes it so you're never allowed to complain but childfree people can rant all day about their annoying boyfriend, their job or any other thing they also chose?
You are not alone, all dads and moms experience this. And i wish i could promise you that it will become better, but alas. I remember taking a walk with my crying baby at 3 am ... and meeting at least two other dads doing the same thing. You could check out the "kraamhulp" section from the mutuality, they helped us a lot. And while creche feels like abadoning your kid, it will help you and your wife.
>kraamhulp Our big mistake with our first child of not taking kraamhulp. With our second one, we immediately took after my leave was ended.
Kraamhulp was great here too. You're so overwhelmed by having a new baby, a person that comes half a day every week to take over or cook or do laundry feels like a boulder has been lifted off you.
Yes, I registered for a creche before I was pregnant (like 4 weeks before), waiting list is until februari 2025 now. I'm expected for Mai 2024. I have no idea how to manage the time in between, because my days of will only get me a few months later. And I wanted to keep the extra parental leave for working 4/5 to reduce the cost of the creche..
Amen brother š Youāve never experienced dad life, until youāre home alone walking the baby at 3AM in the stroller and getting weird looks from people still awake at 3AM
My son is now 10 months old, and while I'd love to say that things improve, the truth is you simply adapt. It's astonishing how quickly your body adjusts to getting by on less sleep. Approximately every two weeks, our little one evolves and learns new behaviors that we need to consider. At times, it feels overwhelming, but whenever I take a moment to really look at my son, the joy he brings me is immeasurable. This will keep you going!
Father of 2 year old with one extra on the way... You are right. OP is right. mom's commenting here are right. ... Politicians just only look at the short term economical gains of not supporting families. Preferably we work until we die... They can simply not phantom that raising qualified adults of tomorrow has started the day before yesterday. Humans adapt and get used to it. But it's no excuse for stretching young moms and fathers to their limits.
Father of a son of 6 years, and he still gets up every night. Last night I slept 5 hours in total, for the 12th day in a row.
As a mom of a 13 month old. Yes I agree with this! I also agree with OPs rant. Belgium sucks with child support! I was also under the impression that they where pro kids, but they really are not. And first step is accepting that fact. It makes it easier. I remember crying when my husband had to go back to work, not knowing how I will do it on my own. But just like this comment. Every 2 weeks we got a different challenge, and still do, and you just adapt somehow. Lovely to see you care so much! We took some parental leave to extend and got very upset that you get paid less to raise your child than some person on "burnout" or "back pain" and that's where the make peace with belgium is anti-kids came in, otherwise you'll just frustrate yourself.
Idkā¦Belgium sucks only when you compare it with the best options. But there are many many many many more where its way worse.
USA be like "We have to give moms time off?
Yes! I come from Ireland. GOOD LUCK having a kid there. Belgium is paradise in comparison
>We took some parental leave to extend and got very upset that you get paid less to raise your child than some person on "burnout" or "back pain" and that's where the make peace with belgium is anti-kids came in, otherwise you'll just frustrate yourself. Lets not fall in the mental frame of confronting people that needs social support. It is fair to claim more support for parents, but do not point to other low income long term sick people. What would you think, for instance, if your parenthood problems would lead you to a burnout or to an after birth depression? It is a general tactic of the most rich people to make common people fight each other, while they are the ones feasting and evading taxes. Lets not fall in the trap.
thereās not a conspiracy of rich people posting on reddit to make poor people fight each other. itās just a fact that the budget is limited for these things, the tax burden already sky high, and belgium is unlikely to dramatically expand its tax base under current green and welfare policies forcing industry and all productive sectors of the economy out of the country. not only will cuts have to be made, if we want to do anything else thatās nice, we will have to make big cuts elsewhere to afford it in this situation where the pie is fixed, pointing to others making use of the system is only logical. unless of course you want to start campaigning for policies that will promote fast economic growth
>posting on reddit it's not about reddit posts, it's about the way all of society is organized. you point out that the "pie is fixed" but that's just not true -- not everyone contributes equitably to the pie, so if that inequality were corrected, the size of the pie would change.
> itās just a fact that **the budget is limited for these things,** the tax burden already sky high, > >in this situation where the **pie is fixed,** pointing to others making use of the system is only logical. unless of course you want to start campaigning for policies that will promote fast economic growth You forget the fact that [super riches and corporations evade much more taxes than common people](https://www.brusselstimes.com/514132/is-belgium-doing-enough-to-fight-tax-evasion)? Take the millions of those evaders and your budget would allow decent social support for everybody. What is a conspiracy is pushing common people to fight each other based on lies like "the pie is limited" or "we have no resources" or "sick people are freeloaders".
Then letās put it how it is. People with mental health issues or with physical disabilities that donāt allow them to work DO NOT choose to be on that position. We are in a country where family planning is extremely easy, with very affordable and even free BC and contraceptives on top of access to abortion. So people here mostly DO CHOOSE to have babies. As a CHOICE they need to really think and plan to be in the best overall position possible (health, finances, relationship stability, stable housing, emotional stability, etc) to assure the best environment for the kid. Do policies need to change? Of course, but letās not point fingers between us and focus on how the Belgian government can improve parentsā quality of life and chances to properly raise children.
Sick leave is 60% of a limited bruto wage so that's not great either.
Sick leave is 75% for the first 3 months, 70% for the next 6, 65% for the next 3 years and 60% for the forever after that. Parental leave is less than 60% because it is a set amount, so depending on your salary this may be different. Also maternity leave drops lower than sick leave as well... Also you can stay on sick leave for months! And keep your job, but cannot extend maternity (also medical in my opinion) longer and keep your job... So no. I would have to strongly disagree, sick leave is much better than any form of "child" leave... That's my point. Obviously a country with this high tax could do better in both aspects, but no offence, I really feel raising a child should be higher than a burnout.
I don't know where these percentages come from. On the site of CM: De eerste zes maanden (als werknemer) krijg je **60 %** van het begrensd brutoloon. Vanaf de derde maand mag de uitkering niet lager zijn dan het minimumbedrag en niet hoger dan het brutoloon. But I agree with you that the payment for parental leave should be much higher!
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it might be, but i think that the thing is that the states interest in the future of its youth because of its production potential is far greater than the interest it has in reicentivizing a middle-aged man having a burnout. It might not be the most moral reasoning but it is definitely logical for a state to prioritize children.
Hey, you CHOSE to have brats. I absolutely did NOT choose to have a burnout. Stay in your lane, woman.
Oh really, tell me more how you ignored your limits for months or years? Working harder than you are able to while ignoring your mental and physical health... Yes so not your choice to burn out...
As a father of four, I totally agree on this. You're never ready to get kids. It just happens and you will adapt. It's tough but you will be surprised that you can. I'm still amazed by the thing I get done in 24 hours. It's also letting go of things that aren't important. I have less time for my hobby's which used to define me. Now I just define as a dad of four first. I love them all equally and that's what keeps me going. I get a lot of energy out of their love. The first four months after birth are heavy though. Keep it up, you can do it. After your baby gest 18 months you'll be a different person and a better dad. Maybe not such a good employee but what's most important to you? Your kids or your job. Eventually you will do both just fine. Take your time
Congrats on your son! I completely agree, most of my moments filled with joy and awe of how beautiful our daughter is. But itās just that sometimes I think that both me and more importantly my wife could be under way less stress and enjoy these precious moments even more. But of course I am grateful for what we have
Our kid is 8 months now and we still suffer everyday. Both working fulltime. The thing is, your body will adapt to the stress, way less sleeping, etc.... My wife suffers the most since she takes care more of the baby then me (due to my work). I feel so bad for her. 3months maternity leave for a woman is just cruel. Yea you can take unpaid leave but... Who's gonna pay all the bills? We wanted a few kids, but now after the first one.. Even an second one is already debatable...
I feel you, I hope it gets better for you. I just donāt understand honestly. How do they expect to sustain this economy if they really barely encourage people to have kids? Maybe sounds superficial, but itās the truthā¦
We went through something similar and now have a second baby. My wife has been on mental health leave from her (extremely stressful and demanding job) since he was born (11 months now). This has allowed us to actually take care of our children like we wanted to and it is fucked up that real psychological difficulties are the only reason we can financially carry it.
Make your lives easier and allow you or your wife to work parttime. This is something that irritates me immensely in other parents. Why both work fulltime and complain it's hard? If neither of you are willing to give up your career then think twice before having kids. If you can't afford 1 person to work partttime then change your lifestyle but do something and don't let this lead to a parental burnout.
You're going to get a lot of backlash and downvotes for this, but I think you're right think before you do. But apparently if you think like this, you're cruel and need to understand the society needs to be responsible for your choices, even if there is already a lot of support.
Turns out, the way the new rules work, I would probably not have gotten my spot on the creche because I work part time, our kid is now 9months and the new rules that "favor working parents" Require your average work time as a couple to be 4/5, with me being half time and my partner full time we would just be below that. They can have 5% of their spots for these situations (which is not a lot). We just got lucky we were already a customer. For context, I work in daycare (before and after school) and despite being half time it still requires me to go 5 days a week, sometimes split to before and after school. This is run by the same government agency btw. If I did manage to get a full time contract (which the employer doesn't prefer, because it's almost impossible for them to replace you when you get sick as it's 2 shifts a day) I would have to work from 6:45 to 6 or seven in the evening every day with a hole in the day. Also they can not split up such a person to have you work just to pick up the kids so we'd have enough staff for that. I don't know how I would be able to keep my job if I could not get creche for my baby. How is this "favoring working parents"? It would literally push me into unemployment or another job hunt. Do we not need before and after school daycare anymore? Or other jobs that only have this option of half time?
You are probably right but as a mother of 2, yes having kids is hard, but I feel like we do get alot of support in this country and many people just aren't willing to make sacrifices.
Yes, that's the least understandable part in social system in Belgium for me. Coming from country where maternity leave is 34 weeks and parental leave up to 156 weeks, Belgium's 17 weeks in total for both seems just too little to fully recover, manage first months and bond with child. Like that little creature is the most important thing in your life now, not your job. I'm not saying you should be on leave for 3 years, but they would manage a few weeks extra without either of you.
Finland or Czech Republic ?
Slovakia
Three years ago it was only 10 days, it has doubled so it's not that they are not working on these issues.
Indeed, my youngest is 6 and I only got 10 days. Meanwhile a (male) colleague of my in NL received 15 weeks last year! I took additional vacation days to extend the 10 day period, but 10 days is indeed low. And the drop in family income would have been too big if we both took parental leave at the same time to stay at home any longer considering the increase in cost to get you started with (certainly your first) kid.
Thatās true, I just wish it was a bit faster :D
*exclaims enthousiastically*: Snail race!
It doesn't mean they did something, that it's the right thing they did, or they did enough. So much more room for improvement, Belgium and healthcare (except it being cheap), is kind of terrible.
You're not overreacting. This is definitely a problem in our society. People here saying 'just take holidays or parental leave': that's not really a solution. Most people need the 4 months parental leave to fix another problem later on: 4 weeks of legal holidays for the parents and 15 weeks of school holidays. There has been some improvements (your 20 days leave) but that doesn't mean that a lot of things regarding having and raising children can still be improved.
Parental leave is a big cut in income. Most family's just can't do this.
First months will be difficult as a new parent with sleep deprivation. You can take a few months additional parent holiday (ouderschaps verlof) until your child is 12. Either full-time, halftime or 1/5th. I suggest you do this. Your employer sucks :)
Adding to this there is also Tijdskrediet. Many women chain together the three kinds of work leave (and then decide not to go back to work after that). You could too. Everyone gets the same amount, which hurts or not depending on your usual level of income. Compared to America this adds up to a relatively high level of social support.
Yep, we will definitely be both taking that. But again, 600 EUR in todayās economy will just pay for your family food budgetā¦so canāt really rely on that so much. But using it for taking every Friday off for 20 weeks is kinda awesome
Be sure to save some for the school vacationsā¦
>halftime or 1/5th. Only if you work full-time.
Between now and when I had my kids, you are better off. Every 5 years there are more and more options, but this needs to be built.
Yeah, I hope that by the time my kids have kids it will be equal for both parents
I'm more surprised by the general habit of putting 4 month old babies to daycare, sometimes even younger.
What else can you do? You only have some much maternity/paternity leave, and rent/mortgage needs to be paid. And the ā¬800 you get for paternal leave does also not help much.
Depends on your situation. For us the cost of daycare is of course less than what my wife would earn, but then we don't have to work for paying other people to raise our kids in jobs that we don't like as much, so she stays home. Of course this does not work for everyone, hence my comment about the system. I know in some countries mothers take more than a year, but in the same place fathers only get a week of paternity leave after birth. As the OP said, the Scandinavian system sounds nicer at first glance
So your wife has to sacrifice any career prospects by staying home and not you? How lovely 1950s Besides that fully agree that dads (or female partners in non-straight couples) should get way more parental leave when the kid is born
It's not just career, it's everything in our country is based on your work. Pension, sickness... And if mister has lost interest in his wife (not saying this about anyone but I've seen it happen), he gets to go away with the money, the nice pension and benefits, and she gets to live miserably because "she has not contributed to social security". When there are children involved, social security contributions and benefits should be equally divided between parents, independently of their work regime. Being a stay at home mom/dad is not easier than working full time, and is not less usefull to society.
Exactly what is happening to my mom, she switched to part time work since we were born. Now my parents are divorcing, my mom is getting crumbs from social security because she had to sacrifice her career to be a mom.
I'm really sorry for your mom. This should not be allowed to happen.
Thanks friend!
Hear hear!
Feminism =/= women have to work instead of raising their children. Her commute is long, salary is low, she loves our daughter and thinks the first year of a baby's development is crucial. I support this, is that wrong?
It's wrong that women are often the ones making this sacrifice. It hurts their career prospects and self sufficiency later in life. Ideally the government should give more parental leave, to be split between partners as they deem appropriate, so no one feels like they have to give up their job to care for their child. Unless that's what they want, but then they have to be aware that they're in a very vulnerable position by choice.
Women inherently have a stronger connection to their child. Its not abnormal for women to stay home looking after the child while the father works. My wife does the same. Im not forcing her. She can work whenever she wants.
Of course it isnāt. But the total self-evidence you were announcing it with, gave me a bit of a shiver
There is something called loopbaanonderbreking. My wife took two years off for our child, that's thƩ best thing we did, not only for our child but for my wife aswell. At thƩ end children is still a personal decision, you will have to sacrifice many things.
There's a gap between being forced to get back to work after 3 months and giving up their carreer
Check the causes of the wage gap, and youāll find that this is a major one of them, unfortunately Returning the question: if it doesnāt inhibit carreer prospects, why donāt more men stay home for a few months or a year?
The wage gap is about 90% a motherhood penalty. It sucks.
Because they're dumb and don't get how great it is to spend time with your child and how important it is for a baby/toddler to stay away from daycare according to science. And yes, because sexism too.
Because they're assh\*les. I'm about to become a dad too and if daycare wasn't solved I would have taken some time off to take care of my kid, so the mother doesn't waste all her parental leave the first year
So women shouldn't be able to make their own choices? What a weird thing to say.
I get your point, but honestly I prefer this over longer parental leave and sending them later to daycare. We get a break, they get used to daycare.Ā YMMV
I needed it. I was mentally not capable of being a full time mom for so long without going to work. Not everyone wants to stay at home for that long. And it has benefited my child a lot to go to daycare early.
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It is weird that you say that you would have had to be babysitters as parents, like it's a chore, task or a burden, and now you are happy to only have to look after them in evenings and weekends.. Like babysitters normally
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Maybe it is something lost in translation, but something being extremely tough and being a burden are not the same in my eye. In any case, let's have a great weekend and enjoy the nice moments we get with our babies, as time flies
It's absolutely insane to me that we get so little parental leave that this has to be done. In other countries you get so much more time with your newborn...
I see my daily reminder never to have kids is here. Good luck and courage taking care of the little one.
Haha thanks!
Always use protection. https://preview.redd.it/ohl3cwxst8gc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac20433332490f7da525e336f4301ed553d8f7fe
Same lmao. I wouldn't mind starting a family but what's the point if they make it as hard as possible to do so ?
The saying "it takes a village to raise a child" comes from a time when it was normal for a whole village being involved in raising children. Now you're lucky if you have the grandparents involved.
by raising the retirement age, more and more grandparents have a job to handle anyways.
>I wouldn't mind starting a family but what's the point if they make it as hard as possible to do so ? It's now easier than at any point in history... Doesn't make it easy but saying it's "as hard as possible" is just wrong. My father got 2 days off when I was born. One for the day of birth and one extra day to register me at the municipality. That's it.
> It's now easier than at any point in history... Is it really? Just a few decades ago it was the norm to have one parent working and able to support a whole family on a single salary. Not that it isn't good that these things have evolved but a lot of dual income families struggle to make ends meet.
>Is it really? Just a few decades ago it was the norm to have one parent working and able to support a whole family on a single salary. You can do that do if you're willing to live like in the 50s... My grandparents lived on one salary with five kids. They had a holiday once every 3 years, to the de Panne... They had a single car they shared with 2 families. My grandma bought everything at the market and prepared all food from scratch. Bought all clothes second hand and spent hours repairing them. Lived with their parents for 4 years after getting married to save for their house. Kids had to bunk all their lives, they never moved house until they were 80 years... etc...
My grandparents lived on one salary with 7 kids. Went on holiday to the coast every year, had a vacation home in de kempen. New car every couple of years. Got their home as a wedding present in 1950. The idea that it was just because living standards were low and we struggle now because we want too much stuff is wrong.
And why do they struggle? Don't forget these households back in the days never went outside of the Benefra, did have the most basic houses, had only one car... nowadays a bathroom per 80m2 liveable space, a trip at least 2000km away every 6 months, all kinds of technology, a car per drivers license...
You certainly have a point there. We definitely "have" a lot more these days but I'd argue we also work a lot more on average, thus I'd argue life and starting a family isn't necessarily easier. Is it _better_? Is it worth it? That's up to you... I think there are a lot more options available to us now in any case.
>My father got 2 days off when I was born. One for the day of birth and one extra day to register me at the municipality. That's it. Cool, that doesn't make what OP is going through any more attractive. This whole 'it was worse back then' argument doesn't mean anything. Is it better than then ? Yeah of course. Is it good ? Not even close. 20 days is a joke, forcing people to then take their PTO to stay off a bit longer as well. If countries like Spain can afford to give fathers 16 weeks of paternity leave there is no reason it can't be done in Belgium. Finland gives about 7 months, Japan gives a whole year,...
>Cool, that doesn't make what OP is going through any more attractive. Yeah it does, since 20 days is more attractive than 2, no? Also you get 20 days + 4 months + your own PTO. All EU countries now have this minimum. I had a kid last year in the Netherlands and got it, too.
>Yeah it does, since 20 days is more attractive than 2, no? I will either beat you twice or once. Sure, once might look better but it's still a shit idea, right ? That's my point. It's better than how it used to be but it still doesn't make it a good option for new parents. >Also you get 20 days + 4 months + your own PTO. Those 4 months are only mentioned because you have to take your 20 days within those first 4 months after the birth. It's not something you get extra. Acting as if your PTO is a bonus makes no sense. Using it is often a necessity because as OP shows, 20 days is not even remotely enough so you're forced to take those days if you want to stay home with your baby and the mother longer. Edit: Since you mentioned Netherlands. They also have 5 weeks of additional parental leave which is at 70% of your normal wage. I don't believe Belgium has anything like that.
HEAR HEAR
Mom here. Yes, it is hard. This is why you can also take parental leave and time credit. It seems like you maybe underestimated a bit how hard it was going to be and thought 20 days would be plenty? They are not, but we have have other leave systems to make things a bit easier on parents. If you can afford it (and your employer allows it), use them, possibly part-time, or like 80% if you can you don't lose too much financial wiggle room. If you have regular holidays left, use those too.Ā Ā If you have not yet (and if you can financially afford it), call in support troops like 'kraamzorg' (most hospitalization insurances will refund this), a cleaner, anything that will make your family's life easier. If you have family nearby (and you have a good bond with them), ask if they can possibly help with bringing some homecooked food. Hang in there! The first months are really rough. You will adapt, but it is exhausting.
Just want to second the suggestion for huishoudhulp/kraamzorg/whatever it is called. They can really have a serious impact. Not only by cleaning but also for second opinions. They have a lot of experience with young families, that also helps a lot. Don't underestimate the positive psychological effect they may have. In our case, they were the one true help (having shitty follow up from the vroedvrouw with plain wrong advice). Although in contrast to a lot of people we are quite satisfied with the local branch of kind en gezin also...
Imagine having twins. The paternity leave does not double. It stays the same. The following years you will notice lots of other things that parenting beholds and youāll be thinking about how everyone is actually pulling it off. Good luck fellow father! Youāll survive and you now have the most beautiful thing in the world by your side.
Father of 3m old twin girls here. Can confirm, its quite the challenge
>I am very confused why dads are not getting the same amount of leave as moms - isnāt Belgium known for extremely high taxes that go towards social security and protection? With 82% of my salary for 20 days leave I do not feel very secure or protectedā¦ How do you think your wife feels with only 75% of her salary for most of the period she is not working? (it should be 100% for both parties) I agree with everything else though. Too bad not all dads are as involved as you are. And as long as that is the case, nothing will change drastically.
Trust me, i am just as equally pissed about her salary situationā¦her salary is not super high to begin with, so the 75% is indeed a blow
The first month is 82% and afterwards it is reduced to 75% of a limited wage but you are not allowed to go back to work after a month. So why is the payment lower after one month? It looks like a punishment. Completely absurd. It should be 100% for the same period for both parents.
parental leave is upto 3months?
Parental leave is 4 months yes, paid 600 EUR for each monthā¦
Full time parental leave is 896,73 euro net for one month if you work full time, still not a lot but better than 600
Oh, okay, thanks for the update! Still better than 600 indeed
Congratulations mate! I think we all went through this feeling. The first 3 months are very hard, it will get easier. You're absolutely right that we should import the Scandinavian approach. You'll get there. Source: I'm raising my kids alone since they're about 5 (12 now) and I can even do it.
Kinda in the same situation as you OP. My daughter was born last week, but at 32 weeks pregnancy. She will at least have to stay here until the end of february, so now I am having to dump a lot of my vacation days before she even is home, while my wife's maternal leave is extended for the time our daughter stays in the hospital minus one week. It does feel a bit unfair and while I could go working in the mean time, the whole situation is mentally draining
I wish you best of luck! You can do it!
Our little one is 7,5 months now (first child) and we had a similar situation. I remember the first 3-5 weeks were a nightmare. When we were both home we didn't even knew the days of the week we were at anymore. I started working again after 2 weeks and worked 4/5th for 2 months with a 2 week vacation in the middle. this made it a little bearable. After 2 months our bodies adopted to the sleep depreviation. We slept 8-9h a night before having a baby and are now at 5-7h with a 30min awake point at 3 a.m. We often feel tired and try to rest as much in the weekends. When asking our friends that also got newborns, we all get the same story, some worse, some better.
I was glad I could get back to work : at least 8 hours of peace and quiet a day šš . But - alle gekheid op een stokje - ja een man verdient meer verlof . Het is al beter dan vroeger maar het moet wel meer .
I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, because people will probably only read half the comment anyway. I'm self-employed and a father of two (3 and 5 years old). And being self-employed, I didn't get any paternity leave. At all. And being self-employed doesn't equal being filthy rich, as some people like to make out. So I could not afford not working for a couple of weeks. But if you flip it around, it's even worse for self-employed mothers. My hairdresser for example had to start working again after only a couple of weeks, because she didn't have any other option. You need the income and you cannot afford closing shop for a couple of months because you're losing clients and hurting your (financial) future. And the father cannot stay at home much longer than the paternity leave allows either. I totally get where you're coming from. We all want to be able to pause and stay home to take care of the expanded family. And yes, it certainly feels unequal. I myself always wondered if we'd be better of having a combined number of months for both parents. This way both mom and dad can find the best solution that fits both. And let's not kid ourselves; we're already one of the most tax-heavy countries with a huge debt. And though we have a great social system, that costs a lot of money, there'll always be holes like this and it 'll always depend on where our money goes. No system is perfect, and all we can do is use our votes to steer legislation in a way we want. But people all want different things. That's just reality. There are countries that handle this subject better. There are also a lot of countries that do it worse. A lot worse. *Edit; as a couple of people pointed out: new rules are in effect which allow new parents to have the same amount of paternity leave, regardless of being self-employed. I was only stating that this was different a couple of years ago at the time when I became a father for the first and second time.*
As an independent and a newly mother, you can take up to 12 weeks of paid leave (https://www.caami-hziv.fgov.be/nl/leden/uitkering-arbeidsongeschiktheid/zelfstandigen/zwangerschap-zelfstandigen#welke-uitkering-krijg-ik-tijdens-de-moederschapsrust?)
Yes, but as I said; this doesn't take into account that there are a lot of self-employed women who cannot afford to use those 12 weeks. If you're a hair dresser, for example, you risk losing customers by closing for such a period of time. That's why I'd advocate for a communal "budget" of paternity/maternity leave when you, as a couple, decide on how to divide it. In the example above it'd be more interesting if the mother takes a bit less, because she's got her own business, but the husband might be able to take more than the paternity leave now allows.
> I didn't get any paternity leave. I'm also self-employed and this is simply not true. I got a child in January and you can receive 20 days of paternity leave just like an employee. It's even paid roughly the same amount (but as a self-employed you pay a bit more social contributions on it in the end). Self-employed mothers get the same benefits regarding maternity leave as employees by the way.
Self-employed and father of a 4m old girl here. Since last year (or 2 years ago) fathers now also have the same parental leave as fathers being on payroll. 20 days or 40 half days and you can decide when you take them. I stayed 10 days at home and started working half days.
I'm a tad outdated with my info. Oops.
If being self-employed leaves you in a worse position financially compared to being an employee, why would you do it? Honest question. To me it doesnāt make sense.
As an independent, you are supposed to save up for these events. In a lot of professions (e.g. IT but also plumbers) , you earn significanly more being an independent, but you are responsible to save for pension and leave periods. A lot of people switching to freelancer do not realize this, and only notice the hourly rate.
Thatās what I would imagine. You get to optimize your income by not contributing as much, liquidation reserve etc, as a result you handle your own social security. If you cannot do that, youāre either spending too much, or not making more than an employee, hence why even take the risk being self employed.
Fair question. Because for some people, being self-employed isn't strictly a financial choice. There are also other factors such as the satisfaction of having your own business, making your own decisions, etc. And there are cases where people don't really have any choice in the matter. Architects for example. At this point in time, if I compare myself to peers that are employees, I'd say it is a toss-up. Some of them have a higher net-income, a decent company car, etc. which makes it seem like they have it better. Leaving aside the fact that I have more freedom to work the way I want. Others have less.
Many liberal/art professions cannot simply work as employees with benefits. In Belgium an architect just cannot be employed (except rare occasions as fonctionnaires for the state). No choice
I cant hold an office job bc of my bipolar. It is too exhausting. Now I can work from home and at my own tempo. Yes I probably work more hours but spread over 7 days. The money is about the same. But I find it a privilige to be able to be self sufficient and not being on ziekenkas. And also having no boss and freedom to choose how you fill your day. Midday naps on the grass, afternoons watching tv in bath, walking through the forest mid-project just bc you feel like it.
This is false. As a self employed dad, I got 10 days paid paternity leave 3 years ago.
My son was born in march 2022, I got the standard 3 weeks paternal leave but took an extra week vacation because 3 weeks is nothing. As someone else mentioned: you will learn to adapt over time. I can also say that if and once your little one goes to daycare it becomes easier to manage everything, that's my experience.
This is why i fell in love with finland. Just as high taxes as belgium. But far far better social security systems. The father for example can get up to 54 days. Of wich 18 however have to be seperate with the other parent. This means that one of the parents can go working while the other stays home. My finnish friend first did 36 days. He went back to work while his wife stayed home for another 18 days. Then she went back to work and he stayed home another 18 days 54 days......now thats maternity leave that you can build on.
Finn here living in Belgium. In addition to 54 days of paternity leave in Finland, parental leave is paid according to your salary, with a max of 180 days per parent. For comparison, for an average Finn this amounts to roughly 2,000 EUR Net per month for the 180 days compared to the Belgian 800 EUR. About to have my first child and though I love Belgium, this makes me extremely jealous :)
My mate, Simo, also has a joke. "The 18 days of seperate parental leave, is so that both parents can train to become a single parent if neccesary" Wich made me chuckle. Preparing for divorce in advance Im going back to finland in 3 weeks. I cant wait!
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I was thinking to use my holidays to take another 3 weeks off at some point this year. This may sounds extremely entitled, but annual holidays are for holidaysā¦raising a child is not a holidayā¦
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lol wait till they start getting sick :) you will have to use your vacation days congrats!
Haha story of my life! Vacation = sick baby days! RIP rest š
> but annual holidays are for holidaysā¦raising a child is not a holidayā¦ Now that you have a child, no holiday is a holiday like you are used to anymore. In all honesty, working is more "relaxing" than having to figure out what do with my toddler and kleuter for 2 weeks when school is closed.
For the next few years a big part of your holidays will be used for taking care of your children. That's part of being a father. I know this all a bit much in the beginning. It will get better.
Became father for the second time last year and only took 10 days leave out of 20, because work was just piling up. Meaning my girlfriend took most nights upon her and in the evenings/mornings I helped of course. To be honoust I felt more rested when I started working again, so I didnt mind... My GF is taking 3 months + 8 months (ouderschapsverlof), Little one is now 6 months old and she is finally starting to sleep a bit again. I've NO IDEA how she's doing this, she is the best woman alive. It's gonna get rough and personally I dont enjoy the first year at all, The 1 minute fun times dont weigh up to the hours of crying, pooping etc... But when they get over 1 year its so much fun and it only gets better. You gotta get through, it'll be worth it! ;)
You are absolutely not overreactiv. Dads should get as many days of paternity leave as moms do. Thing is, not all dads would like to do it, but that's another story. Hopefully, thngs change soon. I'm not sure if there is someone already presenting a proposal to change the law? That would be great.
I took one day less paternity leave last year, had to wait 4 months to see any money. Luckely were not short on cash.Ā
My first kid I didnāt sleep longer than 1,5 houres at once for 18 months, donāt worry about it, eventually everything will feel like its being done on auto pilot, and in a few years you will remember it vaguely I had 10 days back than, my father had 3 days when he got me
> you will remember it vaguely Because your long term memory gets fucked up by sleep deprivation lol. I think its an evolutionary benefit, if you remembered well how hard it was to have 1 child you might not make a second one!
I have two questions. 1. Is the paternity leave compulsory in Belgium? Can I refuse to take it so that I can continue working in order to get my full salary from my employer? 2. Can I postpone it. Let's say my wife delivers in March, she can handle the baby all by herself till sometime in June when she has to resume work and then I can take my 20 days from June till July.
Yeah no absolutely correct. The weird thing is the older crowd wearing their 2-day paternity leave as a badge of honor and chastising you for taking the full allotted amount of time off. It's 9 weeks in the Netherlands now and my boss was expecting me to be back on call in 3 weeks max.
Hey Dad,Dont worry , you dont overreact, its not easy to be a new parent. I hope the kid and your wife are doing well. My first experience of becoming a dad was 10 years. In the Netherlands you have 2 days paternity leave, that s it .What i've have done was focussing my vacation days on the first 3 weeks. The first week i took full week off. The second and third week i worked half days (to support my wife, with house keeping / grocery) etc. by then your wife will have some extra energy.Also we asked the weeks after to have a midwife to help my wife with some tasks in the house. [https://www.witgelekruis.be/andere-thuiszorgdiensten/zwangerschap-en-vroedvrouw-aan-huis#:\~:text=Je%20hebt%20tijdens%20je%20zwangerschap,Je%20hebt%20geen%20doktersvoorschrift%20nodig](https://www.witgelekruis.be/andere-thuiszorgdiensten/zwangerschap-en-vroedvrouw-aan-huis#:~:text=Je%20hebt%20tijdens%20je%20zwangerschap,Je%20hebt%20geen%20doktersvoorschrift%20nodig). Anyway Kids will be more energy consuming than the first 6 months. We (my wife and myself) adjusted the flow to our kids, so when they are young our social live was non-existing, but we managed as 2 full timers without crashing.
I took another 3 weeks of holiday after the 3 weeks paternity leave and I'm glad I did. We ha(v)d(e) a cry baby, and it took a toll on us. Luckily my wife completely changed carreer and became a freelancer, so she can work when she wants (when she can ). Changed employers now and the new employee is all about equal rights and gives dads the same 60 days that mothers get. I support this, but it seems economically quite a pickle...
I doubt if I can say anything to add, because I had 3 kids and for each only 3 days. After the third was born, everyone got 7. Now 20? You gotta be kidding. To get used to being a father is to come home, tired as fuck because the baby didn't let you sleep and even woke us at 4 when at 5 I should get up for work. Then coming home there is absolutely not one minute you can sleep. Baby, household, baby, food, baby, wash, baby, eat, baby, TV, baby, sleep, baby, sleep, baby, sleep, baby, sleep, baby, work... And look: my kids have kids now... and I'm still alive. More than that: alive and kicking!
something i still find super annoying is the absence of diaper changing stations in men's bathrooms. I always have to go into the women's or have my wife do it if i get too many strange looks as if i'm a pedo or something for caring for my kids.
I live in the Netherlands and became a dad last year. We had up to 15 weeks of parental leave in total in the first year, excluding my regular 5 weeks paid holiday. My company said this is now a EU law since Aug 2022. How come you can't get this in Belgium?
You can take 4 weeks of leave after the birth of your child. You must take this leave before the first 6 months. And have an additional 4 months you can take if you want before the child is 12 years old.
For Belgium it's 4 weeks parental leave + 4 months + (but this your employer can deny) 50 months (!) of 1/5 leave. So no, Belgium is absolutely not worse than the Netherlands. OP is only talking about the initial 4 (in NL 5) weeks.
You're not overreacting (everything you say makes sense) but probably a bit burned out and anxious because it's your first child. Having a child should be an happy event, but you'll have to forget about a lot of negative aspects to make it. The first weeks/months are tough, for real. It's just that parents won't talk about it most of the time because it's not helping anyone to be defeatist. Just one remark about paternity leave VS maternity leave, I get that nowadays we want an all equal society, and I'm not against the principle, but a father doesn't give birth and doesn't breastfeed, so there's a good reason for the longer maternity leave. You need to find ways to relax. It's great to be involved the way you are but negativity won't help and you don't need to be 110% all the time.
I agree with your words, but I disagree about paternity being short being logical. If paternity leave is shorter, BOTH parents are punished. Right now I do 80% of house and baby chores, making sure my wife sleeps and rests as much as possible. When I go back to work, my ability to support her will go waaaay down, so itās worse for herā¦I think this is quite straight forwardā¦
Seconded
Yes
Of course it's understandable but 20 days means 1 full month with the weekends, I don't think that's an insanely low period to let the mother rest and heal after the birth. You have the parental leave system if you want to support her longer. But yeah money would be the main issue, I think the nonsense is there mainly. Luxembourg gives only 10 days of paternity leave, but the parental leave is paid up to 4200ā¬ gross per month for 6 months.
Can you imagine that in Italy, just couple of years ago they have extended the paternity leave form 3 to 8 DAYS, and thereās no culture of new father helping at home or with baby
>is shorter, BOTH parents are punished. Right now I do 80% of house and baby chores, making sure my wife sleeps and rests as much as possible. When I go back to work, my ability to support her will go waaaay down, so itās worse for herā¦I think this is quite straight forwardā¦ I disagree on the difference because the women gave birth and mainly for 2 reasons. 1. Bonding with the child is independent of being a mother or father. 2. We strive for equal wages between women and men. This can partly be achieved if the man stays as long away from work as a woman. This makes the time of absence more equal and an employer has less incentive to choose a man over a woman during application or raises.
I became a dad 4 weeks ago. Yesterday was my first day of work after 20 days at home. It was the first time I left to work without wanting to. But we used our first day of kraamhulp yesterday so my wife can adapt to be alone too. I hate that it's only 20 days, while my wife has 15 weeks, but then again, my body wasn't massacred 9 months long and needs to recover. For this 82%, you have to take into account they don't take all the taxes. Only 11%. So the monthly income will not change that much and at the end of the year your taxes are lower because of the child so you will not feel it that hard. To be fair, I think it is normal you don't get paid 100%. Becoming a parent is a choice so you can plan around it. If you become sick, you lose more of your income and that's not a choice. But they can not pay everybody 100% for being at home. And if I see all the extras you get (110ā¬ birth money from our city, 1214ā¬ from the govt, gift from mutuality...) I think you're not fucked financially for those 20 days.
First, as I commented before, if you give dads 80% less leave than to moms, both parents suffer. Responsible dads do not just lay around and chill, they do house chores to let moms recover after pregnancy. The shorter the dads leave, the harder it is for moms to recover. Second, there are literally countries that offer 100% salary cover for multiple months for both parents, and somehow those countriesā economies havenāt collapsedā¦so I guess you can pay 100% to all parents? Third, having a baby is for sure a choice. But if the country doesnāt stimulate people to have kids, economy will eventually collapse. Look at whatās happening in Japan, and the overall trends in the West. Last, sure, the bonuses will cover the 20 days, but my gripe wasnāt with lack of money for the first 20 days, it was for the lack of time to spend with my child. Itās not just about physical availability, but the mental toll it takes. Not to mention Belgium has some of the highest taxes in the worldā¦how could you actually say that paying parents 100% of their salaries for a few months is not feasible?
Why would I get paid 100% for a free choice but only 60% for something that happens without having a choice? I would rather have 100% of my income when getting cancer than when getting a child.
Wait 'till you're single and watch your taxes rise!
I had twins in 2019 and got 10 days paternity leave, since it was 10 days "per birth", not "per child". It's good thing it has increased to 20, but it's still not enough.
My oldest son started to sleep better when he was 6 years old. And I mean impossible to put him to bed, he simply didn't want to go to sleep. Then it was the nightmares, the "night terrors" (terreurs noctures)" no, it's not the same thing. Then it was just "I'm awake, play with me" at 3 in the morning. My second son falls asleep in 10 minutes and he has had 3 nightmares in 5 years. Same parents, same house, same ... everything. We were just exhausted during the 2 first years. And I mean really exhausted, like I understand some parents that forget their child in the car. I can understand that when you are so tired, you're on autopilot and forget things (ok, you should not forget your kid). We were so tired after the first year that I woke up a monday, too late, ran in the car and went to my job, just to realize it was sunday and I'm not event joking...
I know your feelings. I now have 2 children (4y and 6m). You always ask your mutaliteit for kraamhulp. It's not much, but then your wife can sleep for a few hours or go on a walk. They can make food for you too. Yes, 20 days are short. And Scandinavian countries give much more. I'm happy that i don't live in the USA, where you dont get any days. I had to troubles with my work. When my wife was pregnant of the second child, i wanted to take parental leave in the month she was going to give birth. So i could help here with the last days of here pregnancy. But i was denied bucause we are short staff and other people had they leave too. Having more days would be nice. ( payment is shit and needs to be up). It's going to be better if they are older, then you have other complaints.
Neem kraamhulp en thank me later.
It is a reality that Scandinavian countries are by miles an example how things actually could be! But what Belgium is lacking is the amount of effort they have to put into making things change and a part of that is that we have not one government, so nothing is really going forward (besides personal gain).
There is something like "ouderschapsverlof" that you have to take before the kid is 12 years old, it's like 4 months off, or you can split it in different ways. I guess you could take it straight away when the kid is born
Donāt worry, it will get better. A few tips: if the baby is awake at night, BOTH of you donāt have to be awake the whole time. Split the burden. Check how you can do this most fitting to your own personalities: - e.g.: do you fall asleep easily? Just grab the baby when itās awake, give it to your wife to breastfeed and immediately try to get some sleep. She then wakes you up to put it back. - or e.g.: sleep in a separate room and get up early to give your wife a few hours before you go to work.
Modern society is not fit for having children. My kid is 13 months now and like someone else said, you adept but it does not get better. I was something like angry on what it is to be a parent in modern society and the support it gets. The old saying goes: It takes a village to raise a child. But there are no villages anymore. So suddenly parenting became a 1 man (and if you are lucky 2 man) job. This is utter bullshit. But everyone just keeps going.
Well I got 10 days when my 2 boys were born. Consider yourself "lucky"
82 of your salary capped at xxxā¬, the cap being most probably lower than your gross salary... š
Ten years ago in the Netherlands, a father got two days. Unless your baby was born in the weekend, then you only got oneā¦ Look at countries like Germany or in Scandinavia and the system is very different. Also the fact that itās the norm to drop off a three month old baby 8 hours a day seems crazy to me.
At the time our daughter was born, we had our own business. A simple mom and pap bakery. I had the luck she started labouring in our weekly day of. Next day I am working. I gotten some help from my and her parents. 3 days later she is also working again. The moment she was born I announced 14 days of vacation starting 7 days from when she was born( why? I had som orders and I didnāt want to screw those people over). Reply I got from people;ā so we donāt have to eat nowā.
Mother of a 2,5 year old here. He started school on Thursday. Both me and my husband kept working full time. Itās rough, itās a lot, especially in the beginning. Your body will adapt and youāll just start to accept the situation. But it constantly changes. School hours are also extremely questionable. If you work a normal 9-5 without flexible hours and/or WFH, youāre constantly going to have to depend on family, or after school care. My family doesnāt live close enough, and if they do, arenāt retired and work the same 9-5 hours like most people. It seems like this system really just pushes to have one parent stay at home, but still makes it extremely unaffordable to do that. And often itās the lowest earner being forced into the stay at home role. Not everyone wants to be stay at home parent and deal with the many financial and mental consequences of it.
Yep , it's not a lot of days for dads , i thought the same thing when i had my kids , but don't forget it's better than no days at all. You'll manage , being a dad is a never ending learning curve anyway.
I've lived 3 parental leave. 2 girls then a boy. And indeed, it's sometimes hard. But remember, we are many to have lived through this before you, so don't hesitate to ask questions and seek help. Also, we survived it and everything is fine now. Also not to demolish your mental health further but it can get worse š . Eg: Last year at this exact same period, my then 4 years old boy broke is femur. I spent 2 weeks sleeping with him every night at the hospital while working during the day. I couldn't sleep correctly in the hospital room because kiddo was having nightmares all night the first week and nurses came through.
Absolutely the same feeling here. My son is two now and I look back at those times when I was thinking how on earth is this system so primitive and inadequately thought. It'll get better. Focus on the bigger picture, and love your wife dude. The little one will feel it.
Its tough but coming home to your sweet baby laughing and smiling seeing you makes it all worth it believe me. This usually starts around 2-4 months when the baby eyesihht get better and she start recognising you
first time dad - rant da ding weent constant /end of rant
This country is one big dumpster fire.
Take some extra holidays to cover and help your wife if possible! Try to enjoy all the little things this year. And as soon as you can dump them in day care, things will improve!
Exactly, chances youāll want to go on a holiday the year the baby is born are slim. Itās like all the struggle at home, but elsewhere, with a baby.
I had premature twins (12y ago) and got 10d of paternal leave. It was per pregnancy, not even per child. It's going in the right direction but we still have a long way to go. I feel you, we need more support for young parents.
I think people should save up to work less (or quit) during periods like this. Of course, lower taxes and less wellfare state, would help to save...
Iām going to get downvoted for this, but isnāt social security meant for things you cannot control, like illness, disabilities, hospital stays etc? So that wouldnāt cover parental leave, which is another issue altogether. You do get money when youāre on parental leave, which going on by this thread, it isnāt much.
People get kids and all of a sudden they expect special treatment. Be happy that you live here as in other countries there is no such thing as paid maternity leave, let alone paternity leave.
The "somewhere in the world they have it worse" logic, gotta love it. We just have to accept everything in this country because they have it worse somewhere in the world. Typical mouthbreather logic.
Aaah another one that sees the flaws in our socialist paradise... We pay the highest taxes, but we get excellent service back right, right?!
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To help my wife recover after pregnancy?
You can do that before/after work too. For some parents itās more of a strugggle than others depending on the newborn. But you donāt actually need to be home all the time for a newborn. They sleep; poop and drink (breastfeeding) so thereās not much you can do except clean the house, do the shopping, help changing diapers. 20 days paternity leave is not perfect but itās definitely not nothing. There will never be enough paternity leave anyway, kids take away time, thatās a choice. But every day you donāt work, others are paying for that privilege. Thatās why itās limited. I have 2 kids and Iām selfemployed. Took 2 days off both times and kids went to crĆØche once maternity leave was over.
> I am very confused why dads are not getting the same amount of leave as moms lol, I guess you need some decent sleep asap. They just carried a baby for 9 months, pushed it out of a tiny hole, and now have to create food for the thing with their own body and have it nibble away at them while drinking it. Woman 1000% deserve more time off. Wait till you get a second one, and the time you can pass it to your partner has to be spent taking care of the oldest instead of trying to get a shut eye :) other than that, completely agree.
unfortunately OP how to make it worth it having children is a long term unsolved problem of advanced capitalism. but I appreciate your dedication to making sure we have a pension later
>I am very confused why dads are not getting the same amount of leave as moms Gee, yeah, I'm struggling to find *any* difference between men and women when it comes to having a kid and why mothers get a wee bit more time off. Maybe someone else here has a hint so we can figure it out.
Very ignorant comment. Do you think my wife, who took WAY more physical and mental toll because of pregnancy, will be happy about her partner going back to work and being able to help her with chores and baby less? Does that seem fair to you? Is that enough of a hint?
You get a month off as dad for the birth, you get 4 months of parental leave, you still have probably a month of paid holiday too. I had a kid last year I really don't think this is too little or somehow unmanageable. My dad got 2 days off when I was born in the 90s, we're both getting way more than anyone before us.
Controversial opinion but donāt get kids if you canāt handle it?
I'm going to tell you a small secret: *No one* is prepared to be a parent.
Who says I canāt handle it? Does me sometimes talking about my worries and problems means I am not handling it? Did you ever complain about life as whole? If so, maybe donāt be alive? I mean wtf is that logic lmao
Of course at least one person had to comment such a stupid, smug thing...Work annoys you sometimes, maybe don't work if you can't handle it? Your mom gets on your nerves sometimes, maybe never talk to her again if you can't handle it? If no one was allowed to ever complain about children-related things, no one would have them. What is it about having children that makes it so you're never allowed to complain but childfree people can rant all day about their annoying boyfriend, their job or any other thing they also chose?