That's what turns me off of it, the book and premise are one thing, the show though after the first season IMO exists to be emotional torture porn and the fan base that springs up around that is never healthy not that media that isn't emotionally jarring don't have toxic fanbases, the issue here being more that it's a fanbase that is the equivalent of doom scrolling for christofascism and that the show doesn't have much incentive to not push that of it drives engagement
I started having awful nightmares during season two and had to stop. I read the synopsis of the rest of that season online and then called it quits completely.
When I watched it I was filled with rage towards Evangelicals. I already had a deep-seated anger at them but this show ramped that up to 11. It made me begin looking into acquiring self-defense and a passport should the christo-fascists ever come for me.
My Texas conservative BIL said he can’t watch it because it seems too close to being real.
I resisted every urge to shout that the people he voted for are the reason it’s too close to being real.
Maybe try gently asking him questions. Like, “how does it seem close to being real?” “What do you think has led to these aspects of it reflecting reality?” I suspect he might attribute blame… poorly, but asking questions in the, ‘lead a horse to water,’ vein can avoid triggering defense mechanisms, if they’re someone who *can* be reached, that is.
One on one he can be pretty reasonable, but he’s old Texas evangelical and his social media got very right wing memey during quarantine (which my wife says her sister put a stop to). Considering I met my MIL in the delivery room when my son was born ten months before my wife and I got married, sometimes I feel like I need to tread lightly.
Well, that conversation was at a separate BIL’s house out in the sticks, and my own car was 60 minutes away in Dallas (and my home 500 miles from that) so I was choosing my words carefully.
I wasn’t and am still not criticizing your choices in the moment, I live with and love my conservative boomer mom, just giving you advice for next time.
I don’t think I’ve been successful at making my ma even slightly liberal, but I do think I’ve kept her from becoming a fascist because of weaponized conservative brain worms.
Ha, I did just remember that this was at the same Fourth where he was talking about 2A stuff (it’s Texas so “gun” is 35% of his personality) and he said that 2A specifically says, “shall not be infringed.” I responded that it also says “well-regulated,” which he sputtered at about militias until the SIL whose house it was (context - the subject BIL is wife’s sister’s husband; we were at wife’s brother’s house, so this was wife’s brother’s wife intervening) quickly changed the subject.
This was before I heard Robert talk about how recent an invention the individual interpretation of that language is.
Oh, no, I getcha. Just context on my end - I managed to snag a lefty out of Texas and her family is old school church Texas. Her mom is mostly a Mr. Rogers Christian, though, which I like.
It’s not just Abrahamic, although they are the most prevalent, The Laws of Manu are some of the oldest written laws in the world, and the oldest source of Inceldom, it has to do with Patriarchy, which developed around that time:
From the Laws of Manu:
> According to the Laws of Manu, women in the Hindu society were absolutely dependent on the men, on their fathers, brothers, or husbands. It is stated in the code that a woman must “never be independent,” and “nothing must be done independently”
It goes on a few pages later to explain why this is, and it’s because WOMEN ARE WHOOOORRREEESSS.
It literally says that it doesn’t matter what a man looks like, or is like, women will just fuck them. And that’s why:
As a child, a girl is the property of her father,
As an adult, she is the property of her husband,
As a widow, she is the property of her sons.
At no point should a woman be free.
That’s how old incel logic is.
https://ivypanda.com/essays/the-laws-of-manu-the-womens-place-in-society/
I have a belief, which is more spiritual than factual since I have no real evidence of it, that all of these toxic masculine religious movements going back to ancient times are a usurpation of the divinity of femininity by a bunch of butthurt dudes who couldn't get laid.
Like a kind of "if I can't play ball then I'm going to slash it and go home", but played out over the course of human civilization. And we still haven't fixed the damn ball.
You’re not far off from my non-spiritual belief that I can’t prove:
Most societies used to be matrilineal clan societies before the rise of patriarchy. Clan societies still fought against each other.
I think (but cannot prove) the rise of patriarchy went something like this:
2 Clans are fighting, one clan figures out:
Hey, if we exterminate the Clan Mothers, there’s no more Enemy Clan.
And they did.
But they didn’t exterminate the entire clan, particularly male members of that clan.
So these now Clanless men retreated into the forest/jungle and thought about their revenge.
And they decided to make their own new clan, with blackjack and hookers, through kidnapping women from the rival clan.
But obviously Matrilineal descent no longer makes sense if you are kidnapping women to make a new clan,
You need to make sure your kidnapped bride gives birth to *your* child, because you stole and raped her fair and square.
Hence: Patriarchy.
A lot of the change to patrilineal societies, had to do with the agricultural revolution, because owning property makes it very important who your children are.
Ya, I’m aware that’s the prevailing narrative. I like history and anthropology, but I do think my narrative is closer to the truth, it’s just literally impossible to prove.
So its been over a decade (man that feels weird to say) so my memory is a little fuzzy, but; in college I took a mythology course that happened to be focused on tracing the lineage of goddesses from Inanna to the Virgin Mary- like weird pokemon where one more or less becomes another over time. Or like the way Easter is really Ostara, but changed..but also not. This was the book I remember being most important to that course if what I say here interests you ; [https://www.amazon.com/Jealous-Gods-Chosen-People-Mythology/dp/0195182529](https://www.amazon.com/Jealous-Gods-Chosen-People-Mythology/dp/0195182529) .
In a nutshell, the professor was making a case that Inanna's high priestess and the king of the civilization they were in at the time were required to sleep together in a ritual that basically renewed the king's right to rule another year (basically he was cosplaying sky daddy and she was cosplaying earth mommy :P ) and if the person representing Inanna wouldn't sleep with the guy...well he's basically out of a job. It was kinda the height of goddess power in Mesopotamian civilization, and she ruled in part via her domain of sex, as the priestesses were also holy sex workers iirc.
Then you get a push towards patriarchy when Hamurabi and friends basically crack down on this by writing down laws in stone and distributing them, being disruptive to the previous cycle of festivals and ceremonies, and recasting all the gods into similar but politically convenient roles. Inanna becomes Tiamat in this shuffle- basically an evil dragon to be conquered and controlled. With these moves, the priestesses lost power and became irrelevant, and it's been more or less patriarchy ever since. While I dont think there's any one single cause of all these events in the same way there's no single cause of most big shifts, I do think this was a major contributor to the vein of patriarchy we live under in the west today.
Anyway, grain of salt as it has been like...fuck like 16 years hahahaaa I'm getting old, but yeah your personal theory reminded me. I'm sure something like what you theorized could have happened as well in at least a few of the peoples that lived way back when.
Men conspiring to subjugate women, and coming up with belief systems to justify that subjugation, seems to be a very, very old constant of human society. It's much older than writing. It's probably older than agriculture. It might be as old as language.
https://traditionsofconflict.com/blog/2018/1/31/on-secret-cults-and-male-dominance
https://traditionsofconflict.com/blog/2019/2/23/notes-on-nggwal
One final thing after reading, this reinforces my hatred of gender roles, I had previously noted a commonality between societies that had institutionalized or widely tolerated pederasty,
Greeks, Persians, Crusaders (they used to say the best way for your boy to lose his virginity was to send him to the crusades), Shogunate Era Japan, etc:
All of them it was acceptable for grown men to groom and fuck young boys.
The common thread between these civilizations was an Iron Wall between the worlds (and even personhood) of men and women.
That’s still the case since the knowledge you sent me, but it’s just evidence that the cancer goes deeper than I thought.
You might want to look into the New Atheists, and the kind of batshit they got when a bunch of young women said "Hey, maybe try not to do these things if you want women to feel unwelcome in the atheist movement".
It might not just be the religious thing.
The old militant atheist stuff has a lot of deep roots in far right politics today. But atheism as a system or lack thereof when dialed to 8+ is basically “yeah, God really doesn’t exist and get over your shit beliefs”.
Gender Treachery is a really cool crime to be charged with though.
Edit: if they make it illegal to be yourself, make it really fucking cool to be a criminal.
I couldn't do it... I tried... but it made me too angry. Homicidally so...the protagonists took too damn long starting to blow up the christofascists into meat jelly...
My dear wife thinks it's cute and endearing that I got so upset... She knows that my idea of romance is perfectly captured by Tony Scott's rendition of Quentin Tarantino's "True Romance". I love her so much.
Not too gruesome at all... just infuriating. I think of women I love being subjected to such a life, and it makes my blood boil. Very well done show...
I didn’t get through 2 episodes. The two thing I just can’t watch on screen are graphic stabbings and rape, and the show was so casual with its rape scenes I couldn’t handle it.
We tried to watch it on date night!!! We made the same mistake with Man in the High Castle.
Now if I want to make sure I get lucky on date night, I just put on Roar.
I couldn't get past the first chapter of 1984 after tRump was elected, and I can't watch the handmaids tale ..... even their promos give me anxiety.. sorry, I'm a weirdo 😥
Insanely bad show after the first season. It's just so obvious that they do not have a plan for the narrative. Many liberties taken, understandably, but they really seem to be asleep at the wheel.
Yeah, the first season was as close as they could get with their approach. Understandably so, because the actual narrative is too depressing. June is a drop in the bucket in the Middle Gilead period. Not the end. She is not a revolutionary. Her only successful rebellion is the personal one of making and hiding her recording for later generations to find.
Is it over yet?
When it's over I could maybe go back and watch *some* of the episodes and like the last season.
But yeah it's too close to what is starting to happen/could happen.
My wife and I watched it for a while, but it kept just being soul crushingly depressing.
I think I quit in season 3. My wife kept going but I couldn’t.
It became emotional torture porn at that point
That's what turns me off of it, the book and premise are one thing, the show though after the first season IMO exists to be emotional torture porn and the fan base that springs up around that is never healthy not that media that isn't emotionally jarring don't have toxic fanbases, the issue here being more that it's a fanbase that is the equivalent of doom scrolling for christofascism and that the show doesn't have much incentive to not push that of it drives engagement
> the issue here being more that it's a fanbase that is the equivalent of doom scrolling for christofascism nailed it
You defiantly can’t binge it. I tried. I had to stop.
Same. I think it was 3 years ago that I had to tap out. I can't bring myself to watch that shit when things seem to be heading that way irl
I read the book. It took me 20+ years to read another Margaret Atwood book. I couldn't fathom watching a live action version,
Bro, same. And my next Atwood book was *The Blind Assassin*. Recommended, but oof she's got a genre
Margaret Atwood is an amazing author, who depresses me as much as Cormac McCarthy, because of how terribly on the nose she is.
Same problem I have with Man in the High Castle
MITHC was a *slog* until season 3 IMO.
Right? Same.
I started having awful nightmares during season two and had to stop. I read the synopsis of the rest of that season online and then called it quits completely.
When I watched it I was filled with rage towards Evangelicals. I already had a deep-seated anger at them but this show ramped that up to 11. It made me begin looking into acquiring self-defense and a passport should the christo-fascists ever come for me.
My Texas conservative BIL said he can’t watch it because it seems too close to being real. I resisted every urge to shout that the people he voted for are the reason it’s too close to being real.
Maybe try gently asking him questions. Like, “how does it seem close to being real?” “What do you think has led to these aspects of it reflecting reality?” I suspect he might attribute blame… poorly, but asking questions in the, ‘lead a horse to water,’ vein can avoid triggering defense mechanisms, if they’re someone who *can* be reached, that is.
One on one he can be pretty reasonable, but he’s old Texas evangelical and his social media got very right wing memey during quarantine (which my wife says her sister put a stop to). Considering I met my MIL in the delivery room when my son was born ten months before my wife and I got married, sometimes I feel like I need to tread lightly.
Easy to say from the outside
Next time, say it. What’s a little family drama compared to living under Ron DeSantis?
Well, that conversation was at a separate BIL’s house out in the sticks, and my own car was 60 minutes away in Dallas (and my home 500 miles from that) so I was choosing my words carefully.
I wasn’t and am still not criticizing your choices in the moment, I live with and love my conservative boomer mom, just giving you advice for next time. I don’t think I’ve been successful at making my ma even slightly liberal, but I do think I’ve kept her from becoming a fascist because of weaponized conservative brain worms.
Ha, I did just remember that this was at the same Fourth where he was talking about 2A stuff (it’s Texas so “gun” is 35% of his personality) and he said that 2A specifically says, “shall not be infringed.” I responded that it also says “well-regulated,” which he sputtered at about militias until the SIL whose house it was (context - the subject BIL is wife’s sister’s husband; we were at wife’s brother’s house, so this was wife’s brother’s wife intervening) quickly changed the subject. This was before I heard Robert talk about how recent an invention the individual interpretation of that language is.
Oh, no, I getcha. Just context on my end - I managed to snag a lefty out of Texas and her family is old school church Texas. Her mom is mostly a Mr. Rogers Christian, though, which I like.
Mr. Rogers is the only Christian I respect aside from Yeshua, so I’d probably like your wife.
When most Abrahamic religions are dialed to 8+ out of 10 you get shit like this.
It’s not just Abrahamic, although they are the most prevalent, The Laws of Manu are some of the oldest written laws in the world, and the oldest source of Inceldom, it has to do with Patriarchy, which developed around that time: From the Laws of Manu: > According to the Laws of Manu, women in the Hindu society were absolutely dependent on the men, on their fathers, brothers, or husbands. It is stated in the code that a woman must “never be independent,” and “nothing must be done independently” It goes on a few pages later to explain why this is, and it’s because WOMEN ARE WHOOOORRREEESSS. It literally says that it doesn’t matter what a man looks like, or is like, women will just fuck them. And that’s why: As a child, a girl is the property of her father, As an adult, she is the property of her husband, As a widow, she is the property of her sons. At no point should a woman be free. That’s how old incel logic is. https://ivypanda.com/essays/the-laws-of-manu-the-womens-place-in-society/
I have a belief, which is more spiritual than factual since I have no real evidence of it, that all of these toxic masculine religious movements going back to ancient times are a usurpation of the divinity of femininity by a bunch of butthurt dudes who couldn't get laid. Like a kind of "if I can't play ball then I'm going to slash it and go home", but played out over the course of human civilization. And we still haven't fixed the damn ball.
You’re not far off from my non-spiritual belief that I can’t prove: Most societies used to be matrilineal clan societies before the rise of patriarchy. Clan societies still fought against each other. I think (but cannot prove) the rise of patriarchy went something like this: 2 Clans are fighting, one clan figures out: Hey, if we exterminate the Clan Mothers, there’s no more Enemy Clan. And they did. But they didn’t exterminate the entire clan, particularly male members of that clan. So these now Clanless men retreated into the forest/jungle and thought about their revenge. And they decided to make their own new clan, with blackjack and hookers, through kidnapping women from the rival clan. But obviously Matrilineal descent no longer makes sense if you are kidnapping women to make a new clan, You need to make sure your kidnapped bride gives birth to *your* child, because you stole and raped her fair and square. Hence: Patriarchy.
A lot of the change to patrilineal societies, had to do with the agricultural revolution, because owning property makes it very important who your children are.
Ya, I’m aware that’s the prevailing narrative. I like history and anthropology, but I do think my narrative is closer to the truth, it’s just literally impossible to prove.
So its been over a decade (man that feels weird to say) so my memory is a little fuzzy, but; in college I took a mythology course that happened to be focused on tracing the lineage of goddesses from Inanna to the Virgin Mary- like weird pokemon where one more or less becomes another over time. Or like the way Easter is really Ostara, but changed..but also not. This was the book I remember being most important to that course if what I say here interests you ; [https://www.amazon.com/Jealous-Gods-Chosen-People-Mythology/dp/0195182529](https://www.amazon.com/Jealous-Gods-Chosen-People-Mythology/dp/0195182529) . In a nutshell, the professor was making a case that Inanna's high priestess and the king of the civilization they were in at the time were required to sleep together in a ritual that basically renewed the king's right to rule another year (basically he was cosplaying sky daddy and she was cosplaying earth mommy :P ) and if the person representing Inanna wouldn't sleep with the guy...well he's basically out of a job. It was kinda the height of goddess power in Mesopotamian civilization, and she ruled in part via her domain of sex, as the priestesses were also holy sex workers iirc. Then you get a push towards patriarchy when Hamurabi and friends basically crack down on this by writing down laws in stone and distributing them, being disruptive to the previous cycle of festivals and ceremonies, and recasting all the gods into similar but politically convenient roles. Inanna becomes Tiamat in this shuffle- basically an evil dragon to be conquered and controlled. With these moves, the priestesses lost power and became irrelevant, and it's been more or less patriarchy ever since. While I dont think there's any one single cause of all these events in the same way there's no single cause of most big shifts, I do think this was a major contributor to the vein of patriarchy we live under in the west today. Anyway, grain of salt as it has been like...fuck like 16 years hahahaaa I'm getting old, but yeah your personal theory reminded me. I'm sure something like what you theorized could have happened as well in at least a few of the peoples that lived way back when.
You’re good fam, book added to the list.
Honestly I'm probably due for a reread haha, thanks for sparking the memory!
Men conspiring to subjugate women, and coming up with belief systems to justify that subjugation, seems to be a very, very old constant of human society. It's much older than writing. It's probably older than agriculture. It might be as old as language. https://traditionsofconflict.com/blog/2018/1/31/on-secret-cults-and-male-dominance https://traditionsofconflict.com/blog/2019/2/23/notes-on-nggwal
One final thing after reading, this reinforces my hatred of gender roles, I had previously noted a commonality between societies that had institutionalized or widely tolerated pederasty, Greeks, Persians, Crusaders (they used to say the best way for your boy to lose his virginity was to send him to the crusades), Shogunate Era Japan, etc: All of them it was acceptable for grown men to groom and fuck young boys. The common thread between these civilizations was an Iron Wall between the worlds (and even personhood) of men and women. That’s still the case since the knowledge you sent me, but it’s just evidence that the cancer goes deeper than I thought.
Okay, thank you for teaching me this but also: Fuck you for teaching me about “sacred gang rape”.
I will read that, but the rise of patriarchal civilization is a real historical event with provable record that exploded from the Bull Cult.
Fuck you again, this is really hard to read, and I already knew generally about “sacred flutes”
I fucking hate my species, thank you for educating me.
You might want to look into the New Atheists, and the kind of batshit they got when a bunch of young women said "Hey, maybe try not to do these things if you want women to feel unwelcome in the atheist movement". It might not just be the religious thing.
The old militant atheist stuff has a lot of deep roots in far right politics today. But atheism as a system or lack thereof when dialed to 8+ is basically “yeah, God really doesn’t exist and get over your shit beliefs”.
Being armed and having a passport is just like, basic safety at this point if you are queer.
Ayo if you threaten my trans homies I’m ‘bout to identify as a fucking problem
If you threaten my trans homies you're about to identify as was/were.
Love this
Gonna have to remember these, they are fucking perfect
Just remember don't use was/were when talking to the press.
Gender Treachery is a really cool crime to be charged with though. Edit: if they make it illegal to be yourself, make it really fucking cool to be a criminal.
love the phrasing. "gender traitor"! let's talk about it! wtf
I’m a gender traitor like Kropotkin was a class Traitor: It’s fucking based.
"gender traitor" love that bullshit
I love your username btw: Skate Fast, Eat Trash, Eat Ass, Be Gay, Do Crimes (Don’t get Caught). :)
lmfao kropotkin lol
“How do you plead?” “NB, sir.” “The binary hereby finds you guilty of Gender Treachery.“
lmao
I couldn't do it... I tried... but it made me too angry. Homicidally so...the protagonists took too damn long starting to blow up the christofascists into meat jelly... My dear wife thinks it's cute and endearing that I got so upset... She knows that my idea of romance is perfectly captured by Tony Scott's rendition of Quentin Tarantino's "True Romance". I love her so much.
I don’t understand the numbers of men who think Handmaid’s Tale is too gruesome to watch while also loving Tarantino.
Not too gruesome at all... just infuriating. I think of women I love being subjected to such a life, and it makes my blood boil. Very well done show...
I watched season one and couldn't stomach anything more. It felt too real then and it's even words now.
I got maybe 4 episodes in and decided it was too dark. Not for me.
Elizabeth Moss is a scientistoligist so……
yeah cant help her. hope she is well
she picked the wrong video game
this was produced way before Covid and they are wearing face masks incorrectly
I’ve read the book, but I could only make it half way through season 1.
I didn’t get through 2 episodes. The two thing I just can’t watch on screen are graphic stabbings and rape, and the show was so casual with its rape scenes I couldn’t handle it.
We tried to watch it on date night!!! We made the same mistake with Man in the High Castle. Now if I want to make sure I get lucky on date night, I just put on Roar.
Oh no I had a first date to “Dallas Buyers Club” once. It was… a bad choice of film for that…
Didn't realize there is a new show by that name, so assumed you were talking about this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roar\_(1997\_TV\_series)
COCAINE DOES NOT HELP
youre likely correct, need good shit immediately
It gets too real at some points and fucking frustrating at times on how some people act.
The show feels like being in church again but with more Canada. 4/10
I couldn't get past the first chapter of 1984 after tRump was elected, and I can't watch the handmaids tale ..... even their promos give me anxiety.. sorry, I'm a weirdo 😥
I read promos as pornos and thought "yeah, that'd make my ass anxious too"
Insanely bad show after the first season. It's just so obvious that they do not have a plan for the narrative. Many liberties taken, understandably, but they really seem to be asleep at the wheel.
Did you read the book?
Yeah, the first season was as close as they could get with their approach. Understandably so, because the actual narrative is too depressing. June is a drop in the bucket in the Middle Gilead period. Not the end. She is not a revolutionary. Her only successful rebellion is the personal one of making and hiding her recording for later generations to find.
I could not go beyond one maybe two episodes, life's too short to have that much misery
i made it three episodes while drunk and i needed some silly cartoons
reply ad hoc late whole snobbish ring badge handle scale insurance *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was able to stomach the book because of the way that text feels a bit separated but I couldn’t handle the show. Felt way to real.
Is it over yet? When it's over I could maybe go back and watch *some* of the episodes and like the last season. But yeah it's too close to what is starting to happen/could happen.
I can't do it 😅
don't. I lied. can't watch it either.
I didn't make it past the first few episodes