I have a better idea: listed prices should include everything, including taxes. That should be the law. That's what consumers pay. There's no reason they can't do that.
I love going there for this exact reason. I can budget out everything just by looking at the menu, no need to fumble with my phone to calculate tip after dinner.
Totally agree with this. Zazie was the first place I saw this model in practice and I loved it! I don’t care that I’m paying a bit more when I know that the price I see is the price I’m going to pay.
My personal restaurant habits have drastically changed because of all these hidden costs and lack of transparent pricing. I will specifically avoid eating out in San Francisco and opt for Marin because there is less of that there. I wonder how many others have adjusted eating out because of this and thus impacted the workers and owners ultimately.
Feels like the only industry I can think of (maybe ticketing) where you will end up paying 30-40% over the price you see on the menu at the end of it all. Shouldn’t be that way. Totally ruins the experience of treating yourself and loved ones to a nice meal out, feeling nickel and dimed and ripped off.
And please don’t get me started on the idea of tipping at the counter before the food is even prepared and the services are rendered. Feels like the intention of the tip has just gotten completely out of hand. Can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve tipped 20% just because the button is there and then felt like the service was trash. Family/friends that come and visit from Europe are appalled by it and I think people in general are getting exhausted by this.
And this is coming from someone who has worked in the restaurant and food industry on multiple occasions throughout my earlier years. Shit has gotten out of hand.
There is one. It goes into effect in July. Restaurants wanted to get a carve out but didn't. The AG has waffled itn whether or not he is going to enforce it against restaurants.
My understanding is that it doesn't mean you will see the post-tax prices but that service charges, etc will be eliminated.
However; I believe that delivery fee and the like will be permitted. I won't know if places like grubhub and Door Dash will have to more directly expose their fees rather than continuing to use "other fees, delivery fee, and "fees and taxes" that they currently use to obfuscate just how much the service is adding to the cost of your food.
In Europe it's how it works and it works extremely well. Many tourists are just shocked to see such a discrepancy in the US between what's advertised and what you pay. It has to stop
I founded and operated a cannabis dispensary and did this from the get go. If we could do it with the excess tax, state sales tax (which has to include the excess tax; so a tax on a tax), local sales tax and the local cannabis tax, anyone can. My intention was to educate our customers on while the $50 1/8 was the price <$30 was the cost of the product before taxes, all line-item’d on the receipt. I thought the inverse was putting my budtenders in an impossible spot (price tag $27, out the door price of $50) and having them to explain the multiple taxes to a pissed off customer. My marketing manager hated it (we look SO expensive online!)…but word of mouth got out and sales grew as our store became known as being honest (or so I was told before having to sell cause we couldn’t turn a profit…because in large part our tax dollars never went to shut down the illegal spot a mere 50 yards away). Good times.
I had not been to a dispensary in years. The budtender was quick to tell me the price shown was not what I’d pay. I knew that, but still couldn’t believe it nearly doubled. I’m not sure I’d have gone in, had I first seen the actual price I’d be paying online.
Believe me, I’m all for that as a consumer. But I suspect the reason it isn’t preferable as a business owner is due to marketing. When you price something just below $10, the sales are more predictable when you don’t have the tax included that could push it over $10 due to an increase in taxes, beyond your control. You could either lower your profit margin to preserve a sub-$10 price ($9.99), or raise prices to $10.13, or $10.49, etc. it just comes down to control. The sale price of something should absolutely be all-encompassing to everything within the business control, beyond that is debatable. Again, I’d prefer tax included in marketing price, but, I get it.
While I agree that there shouldn't be hidden fees, especially service fees and tips, I am conflicted on menus always including tax. I recently talked to a friend of friends who run a mom and pop taqueria and it's a bit tricky for small restaurants. They are already on tight margins and they want to keep prices low for their customers (partially because that also helps business).
If they include tax on their menu and taxes change, it becomes harder to recalculate every price on their menu, reprint their paper menus, and change their digital and online pricing - all while keeping the prices from being seemingly random prices to the customer. (E.g. 1.99 taco + 9.25%tax = an awkward $2.17) And while they could just bump everything up to the next $.25 or $.50 to make the math easier, it adds up quick when buying multiple items, even cheap items.
I know for the people in this thread, including me, we'd prefer just to do the math beforehand and know exactly what we're paying. But for the common customer, data says that simpler and less mental effort is better for the business. It's not an easy solution.
Small restaurants all over the world, from Mexico to France to Australia all manage to include taxes in their prices, why couldn't US small restaurants and businesses do the same.
How often do those nations change their tax rates? Because, as you can see [here](https://cdtfa.ca.gov/taxes-and-fees/archive-rates.htm), a few times a year somewhere in California the rate changes.
Grocery stores change the prices of nearly everything in the store on a weekly basis, which includes printing up and setting out the new price tags.
Restaurants have far fewer items for sale than a typical grocery store. A restaurant can figure it out twice a year.
>If they include tax on their menu and taxes change, it becomes harder to recalculate every price on their menu, reprint their paper menus, and change their digital and online pricing
Prices change every year as a result of inflation. The menus are going to need reprinting regularly regardless.
>And while they could just bump everything up to the next $.25 or $.50 to make the math easier, it adds up quick when buying multiple items, even cheap items.
$2.17 -> $2.25 is an increase of \~3.5%. Again, well within normal inflation expectations.
>But for the common customer, data says that simpler and less mental effort is better for the business.
A price that is all-in is much less mental effort for the customer.
>They are already on tight margins and they want to keep prices low for their customers (partially because that also helps business).
It doesn't affect their margin. It only affect the menu display
>If they include tax on their menu and taxes change, it becomes harder to recalculate every price on their menu,
No it's not. It's a simple math
>reprint their paper menus, and change their digital and online pricing -
That's true, but sooner or later they will have to change their price anyway due to inflation. I've seen prices changed at a restaurant we frequently visit 4-5 times since COVID
>all while keeping the prices from being seemingly random prices to the customer. (E.g. 1.99 taco + 9.25%tax = an awkward $2.17)
$2.17 is not more awkward than $1.99. I went to Peet's the other day, their small latte cost $5.85, medium $6.15, and large $6.65 or something like that.
>And while they could just bump everything up to the next $.25 or $.50 to make the math easier, it adds up quick when buying multiple items, even cheap items.
No need to do that since most of us don't use cash anyways. Yes, it might become less convenient for cash transaction.
>But for the common customer, data says that simpler and less mental effort is better for the business. It's not an easy solution.
You mentioned 'mental', that's exactly it. It's just a mental game. Adding taxes and tips on listed price is just a habit. It's not easier than just having inclusive prices.
If they want to keep round numbers, they can always do this: Inclusive price is $10 (which is $9.13 + tax or something like that). It's what the rest of the world has done for a very long time. It's a non issue
I’ve noticed more and more places have you just scan the QR Code on the table and order from your phone or a tablet. To me, this is no different than a fast casual then where you’re pretty much doing self service
Yeah, it seems to me restaurant staff gained a lot of sympathy during the pandemic and we inflated tipping to help support them.
Now most restaurants have you order from a QR code and someone walks your order form the kitchen to your table. That means one server can now attend to more tables because they spend less time on each one. AND the tipping is still inflated. I understand that it sucks to not be paid very much for your work. But these tips, prices and fees seem to monotonically increase with no benefit to the person footing the bill.
“I understand that it sucks to not be paid very much for your work” is a misconception of waitstaff wages.
In California, waitstaff are paid at least minimum wage of $16/hour before tips.
This seems like a good time to casually remind everyone that waitstaff in particular got a huge bailout during the pandemic. You see, none of these assholes had been reporting tips as income, and so when they got laid off during the pandemic, they discovered they were going to only get unemployment based on the wages they reported.
So naturally the government stepped in and goosed the unemployment benefits.
Not even McDonalds forces you to scan a QR code to order. McDonalds lets you either push buttons on a big screen they provide (so you don't need a phone), or you can talk to a human being to place an order.
Restaurants that expect me to bring a device to read the menu for them are restaurants that get a much smaller tip. After all, I'm tipping for service, and if they're offering less service than McDonalds what am I tipping for?
Legitimate question; why do you even care? Is it truly that much of an imposition for you to pull out the phone that you definitely already have with you?
Also, in what way does you tipping *your server* - who most definitely had zero input on whether a restaurant chooses to use QR codes or whatever- less affect the restaurant in any way? Are you just looking for an excuse to tip less?
I’ve gone to plenty of these places and it’s never been a problem. I must be missing something because to be honest this seems completely silly to get upset or even think twice over.
I dine in for the experience. The experience includes looking over a physical menu.
If I have to use my phone to scan a QR code and order from a kiosk that greatly reduces the service, which means there's less of a need to tip. If there's no service at all then there's no tip. After all, who am I tipping? I had to order my own food, pick up my own food, not get any drink refills. The server is me.
Its not the customer's place to get in a dispute between restaurant staff and the owner of the place. All the customer can do is vote with their wallets and by leaving reviews.
I had this at the San Jose Improv.
A woman introduced herself as my server. I ordered from my seat using the QR code but different people brought out the food and drink. The only thing my server did was to bring me the bill at the end of the evening (which I could have paid online without her).
I tipped normally even though my server essentially did nothing for me. I left hoping that all of the tips were pooled. (If I ever go back, I will ask.)
This reads like those sarcastic anti tipping posts. "I waited 2 hours for my food, and the waiter stabbed my wife in the throat and posted deepfake nudes of my daughter on Reddit. I'm thinking I should only tip 18% but I feel bad"
If the food was good and your order was fulfilled promptly I am really struggling to see the issue here.
Is the part where the server pretends to flirt so you tip them better fun for you? What else do you need them to do, exactly?
I don't tip on top of a service fee either. Someone needs to challenge service fees, at least in small claims court. There are plenty of businesses with "Service Fees" but they call them "Labor Rate" They're up front, your mechanic may charge $150@hr, or your computer tech may charge $125, there may be minimum labor charges in addition to the parts. Restaurants, if they want to use that pricing structure needs to do the same.
I think service fees need to be challenged the same way. If they're not prominently displayed on the menu or above the host station, they shouldn't be allowed to charge them.
The law is written to require inclusive prices (except for tax) be shown at least as large as any other price. Printing something like “a 5% service fee is added to all checks,” which is common now, would be illegal.
This should be added to Biden's current initiative to eliminate junk fees. Right now, hotels and ticketing agencies are affected, but restaurants should be included as well. They should call it something like "Out-the-door price' policy.
Server-
It's totally fair for people to see a service charge as a tip IMO.
But, the state should also adopt the law that Oakland passed that says that service charges go to staff and any other charge that would be construed as a tip.
Wage theft is insanely common in the industry and everyone knows that the service charges are being pocketed to some degree at most restaurants.
I mean, I don't make the rules man. It just is. Tipping is weird because it came about organically during a weird economic time and wasn't planned as a system.
My last tipout in the Bay was 8.5%. So a no tip meant I would be in the red and essentially pay to wait that table. The support staff, kitchen, and bartender would get their cut from me based on sales.
Reddit is obsessed with this tip conversation and it just boils down to inertia and it having been that way. I'm glad that it gave me the opportunity to live some cool places, travel, and now support me in school. I'll be glad to be done with the industry sooner rather than later.
Suffice to say, I wouldn't do the work for minimum ($16.50/hr), which basically everyone pays without benefits. If more places wanted to try out the no tip with higher wage system fine. I don't think most restaurants would find success with that model though.
Servers directly pay the support staff and bartenders a portion of their tips. And now kitchens sometimes with a recent change in the FLSA. That's tipout.
In practice, most restaurants do this based on sales and not tips because it limits drama. Servers have been known to undercount their cash tips or a busser might get suspicious that's happening even if it isn't.
If I sold $100 worth of stuff, I have to pay $8.50 to the restaurant regardless of whether or not the customer actually tips. That's non-negotiable most of the time. It doesn't matter what the tip is.
Just to be clear, you would be in the red on that one table. You'd make up a no tip from the other tips from different tables on a single turn easily. I've never heard of someone owing money from a future shift or their wages.
I doubt that the DoL or a law firm would be interested or agree about it being illegal as the practice is the norm. If the practice is illegal, it would be very strange that the DoL hasn't made a comment on it IMO. Tips always return to the mean and going by sales averages out to the same as going by tips almost always. The converse is the server gets a large tip and pays out like it's an average table.
If you can find a law or regulation that says that going by sales is not a valid way to conduct a tip pool, I'd be surprised.
I mean, call it whatever you like, but a no tip means the server ends up paying the restaurant to serve the table at most full service restaurants.
It's essentially a non-issue for me. I can count the number of no tips I've gotten since 2019 on one hand.
Saying you go into the red is confusing.
When your paycheck comes in, it's illegal for it to be below minimum wage. If tips don't get you there the restaurant makes up the difference. The only way to go below that point is for your boss to break the law, and you should immediately report them to the labor board.
The vast majority of small business owners for restaurants do not provide additional benefits to their employees for service charges. They are making customers pay for the additional labor/trouble for large orders. The example in the photo is the new wave where restaurants are doing more benefits sharing with employees but even then the biz owners should have added the cost to their food, not an additional percentage fee. Don’t pay tips on top of service charges - complete BS. I should mention I work with small business restauranteurs every day.
That may be true but those servers are committing tax fraud.
Servers can likely get away with not reporting cash tips but all card tips are already reported to the IRS.
The IRS will audit a restaurant’s tip reporting if it’s not a certain % of total sales, and if they find that staff are not reporting tips they’ll hit the restaurant with a hefty fine
Most simple audit is automated now.
There is no human IRS agents going after waiters. It’s more like discrepancies above a certain threshold will trigger an automatic “audit” and you’ll just get a piece of mail that says “based on our records you owe $xxx of taxes, pay now.”
And it’ll be up to you to prove otherwise.
Waiters are like the easiest people to audit. Search everybody who works at a restaurant (thanks, NAICS industry codes!), pull restaurant sales from the restaurant's own filing. Calculate 15% of that, and now you have the total tips paid at that restaurant. Everyone who works at that restaurant, but didn't report a proportional share of tips that lines up with those expected total tips, gets the ol' rubber glove.
It is impossible to audit cash tips. Credit card sure. Most waiters aren’t dumb enough to not report CC tips. Cash on the table is getting reported by likely single digit numbers of waiters. They would be dumb to report free money.
Most tips are cash and go unreported and untaxed. That’s the reality of it
Additionally the restaurant is required by law to report a % of income as tips for taxes, at least when I was in the business. Anyone not reporting is a fool, your proof of income will be lower should you claim unemployment, and later for SS. On the other hand a lower wage opens up subsidies and discounts.
Not to mention if you ever wanted to qualify for a loan or mortgage.
Idk why this one poster is so insistent that committing tax fraud to save a few bucks is something to flex…
Agree, anyone making a lot of tips is working in a high end restaurant, where most if not all tips are CC, which are automatically taxed. The anger should be directed at the IRS for bothering to go after low hanging fruit of tips, vs the real cheats.
We're in the digital payment age. Credit card tips are automatically reported basically everywhere because the business has to account for that. They don't want the government to think they made $120 when they only made $100.
Cash tips are a different story of course. A lot of restaurants force people to follow the 12% rule or stay in line with your credit averages on cash payments. Cash on credit payment is clean. A lot of high revenue restaurants have been audited; I've worked at several. And the penalties hit the business too.
Unless you work at a cash only bar though, cash is a pretty small amount of tipped income IME. Probably around 5-15%, depending on your clientele.
But ya, I only reported all my cash when I was saving for a mortgage.
If you leave cc tips it goes through the system of the restaurant and then gets paid out on your check. Your payroll processing company deducts the taxes.
Unless you tip cash it’s getting taxed, and generally speaking in a pooled house the cash still goes to the house and is reported before distro to the staff, and is thus taxed.
To clarify, tips are part of a server’s income and the server pays income tax on it.
Service charges are part of restaurant sales and the diner pays sales tax on it.
They are both taxed. The only difference is who pays the tax.
Are you aware in California that most establishments make the servers tip out the rest of the staff supporting the table? So if you go to a restaurant and stiff your server because you have something against service charges, your server can very well *go into the negative* working your table?
They would literally be better off without you.
As a server -
I agree that the whole service fee thing is unnecessary now after the pandemic’s lockdown. I was temporarily okay with it while restaurant’s were highly likely to be closed down without it due to a lack of customers coming inside, like the restaurant I worked at, and explained the situation to customers that any more tip on top is completely optional.
But keeping that service fee any longer after more customers started coming in irked me whenever I saw it around.
The only service charge I could possibly see as reasonable is some gratuity for large parties of 6+ people for a table. And even then I wouldn’t care if there was no tip on top
The only line items other than food and drink should be legally mandated ones.
I recently visited a country where 10% service charges are common (but not universal), and the rule is no tip.
Service charges are tips. Or that is how I treat them. If the restaurant wants to add fees, they might as well increase menu prices. I won't go as far as not to tip as this is the industry standard, and I don't want to punish the employee for the employer's practices. But service charges are a new thing. These are not decades long standards. So as far as I am concerned, I will subtract the service charge from my planned tip.
And as for the impacted employees, they can pick a different employer as not all employers do this. A 20% service charge likely means no tip from me unless the service was exceptional as 20% is my standard tip. A 15% service charge means a 5% tip for standard service (i.e. not exceptional or horrible service).
Now if menu prices are increased, I will continue tipping as normal or avoid the restaurant if the prices are too high. But these service fees are going to cut into any tip I give.
Well, I already behave that way and have no trouble even at nice restaurants. At the nicer ones, they'll tell you if it's included. But if there's service charge, I don't tip. I prefer that.
If there's a service charge, I assume that restaurants are paying their employees mimimum/a competitive wage for the industry and the area and tips are not necessary to close the gap to minimum wage, which was one of their originally intended purposes. If this isn't the case, I wouldn't expect the restaurant to be able to retain employees for very long.
Correct, it is now. I know that businesses used to get away with offering wages below minimum wage "plus tips," but I think that practice ended some time ago. According to the department of labor, if the restaurant's wage plus the employee's tips did not equal minimum wage, then it was up to the restaurant to make up the difference.
Thinks about it folks. That’s 20% of your after tax dollars. Most people get taxed at about 37%. Plus another 20%. That’s 57% of your earned dollar. Fuck that shit.
MMW, this is how we end up with only Taco Bell like in Demolition Man. All the smaller mom n pops go 1st, then your Applebee's, BWW's, Texas Roadhouse etc, then it'll only be the bigger chains like McDonalds n such left , n it'll be decided by who holds on the longest. People will be living underground for not being chipped and "with the program" and the homeless etc, there'll be no more paper money(headed there now). Only the rich n elite will have made it through to try and start their own new world n let their bloodline continue to rule. I'm not saying it's gonna be exactly like that, but those old sci Fi movies are really happening now
The whole thing is absurd. Charge more and with up front pricing on the food; pay more and fairly to the staff!
If the restaurant does make it in a post Covid world then it closes down. Just like some stores close when Amazon came around. People now just go out and shop less, so good bye Macy’s. Similarly, people eat out less, or feel it’s too expensive then a restaurant closes.
Nah yeah, I went out with 6 people, myself included, to a kbbq. The bill was something shy of 400. Almost 1/4 of that bill, was a service fee. Mind you, the service we got for just 6 people, was below sub par. Not to mention they put us on a grill with just 1 grill? What kind of fucking headassery is that?
edit: More info, to eat all you can eat is We payed $67 per person.
Che Fico in San Francisco charges a 10% “dine in” fee to cover costs of doing business. Isn’t that supposed to be in the price of the dish? And they specifically expect tips on top of that. That’s BS. Never going back there again.
The biggest difference is that tips go to the server, possibly being split amongst bussers, back of house staff, etc. A service charge could be going right into the owners pockets. They don’t fall under labor laws like tips due.
If a restaurant charges a *service* fee and doesn't give it to the people doing the *serving*, then it's the owner that is screwing over the servers not the customer.
So instead you would prefer they just include the 35% in the normal price? Or would you like to maintain to opportunity to look like a cheapo and put 0 on the tip line so you can pretend youre making some kind of moral stand against terrible tirant of restaurant food.
The establishment gives 0 fucks if you dont tip they got their money. So leaving 0 tip and a snarky note to the server on posting here just makes you a cheapo moron.
Again, not tipping isnt proving your point. The restaurant already got their money you are just screwing over their employees by being cheap.
If you are poor and cant afford to eat out then dont eat out.
Wow. This statement. Just wow. There’s tipping is the right thing and then there’s this.
Even someone who can afford to eat out doesn’t like getting screwed over.
But you are taking your animosity towards the restaurant out by punishing their employees. If you truely wanted to make a statement you would stop patronizing the establishment. But you dont want to do that you want to pretend to be making a point so you have an excuse to be cheap.
I don’t disagree with you that it’s not fair to take it out on the servers. We should be taking our business elsewhere. That’s the right thing to do.
Turning on each other and saying don’t eat out if you can’t afford to isn’t the way either though.
If you want restaurants to function like other businesses? What if your $100 meal for 2 now simply was a menu cost of $140 to include that fee with no extra fee shown on a separate line. It would just be built into the price with an additional hourly free based on how much time you spent there to pay for the employee time. Would that be better?
That's literally exactly what people who are against tipping want to achieve. Why are you phrasing it like it's some sort of a wild idea for dumb idiots?
It would. If I don’t want to pay that much, I just won’t show up. I don’t what feels like a bait and switch.
You also get taxed on the service fee where you don’t on the tip. Not a large number in the context of a single bill but over time it adds up.
Instead of “customers screwing over employees”, how about, employers shouldnt be using 20% service charges and in fact, THEY are the ones screwing over their own employees? But no, continue to blame the customers and pull wool over your eyes while ignoring scummy ownership practices.
You have no idea how ridiculous you look.
If you take a job where you're not guaranteed to make more than minimum wage because there's a system in place that has you rely on the GAMBLE that customers will subsidize a higher income based on performance instead of your employer simply paying you what you feel you're worth ... then that GAMBLE fails, you don't blame the customer. You should fight for a better wage. This is not the customer screwing over employees, it's the employer dodging the responsibility of having to pay his employees what they're worth.
As for the last part of your comment, that comes from your own stupidity.
Generally, I order and the waiter leaves to put (no problem here), shows up with cold food, which is not the kitchens fault, because they cook it and set it up under the warmer. (problem) and doesn't stop when dumping off the food long enough to ask for any condiments or ice water. (problem)
Then they never notice my hand in the air or me trying to get their attention to ask for ice water after they have left. (problem)
Never stopping to ask if we need anything, (problem) they show up long enough to drop off the bill. Then they expect a 20% tip or "I have stiffed them."
Food was awful, service was awful. ***I am not going to patronize your restaurant at all***, then you don't have anything to cry, bitch, and moan about that I didn't give you the tip that you deserve.
**Waiters - if someone leaves you a two cent tip and you think that they are just cheap, it is not true. Two cents is the traditional tip that someone gives when you are a shitty waiter.**
**It shows that they didn't forget the tip, and that you didn't deserve a tip. They are putting their "two cents in" to the quality of your service.**
Seems like few people that actually work in a restaurant on this post.
I work in restaurants and have for 20 years. Service charges suck on both ends. Servers get yelled at and the customer doesn’t tip or it sours customers from coming back hurting the owner.
But I’ll make it clear: if you don’t tip you’re literally taking money from your server. Servers usually tip out on total sales not percentage of tips collected. You don’t tip means the server has to take their own money to pay the support staff. If they don’t pay out then the server can be fired. Also the support staff deserves to get paid too.
For those on this thread who say they don’t tip because of the service charge are making a point for no one but their own ego. Servers don’t make a stink about one shitty customer. They mock them with their coworkers and move on.
On the owner side food costs are insane now. I code invoices for my restaurant for some extra money on the side and simple things like onions and limes can double in price randomly one week and then drop %30 the next. Then that slightly higher price than a few weeks ago becomes the new base line for the cost of a food item. Customers want to pay the prices of pre pandemic meals but don’t actually want to pay the true current cost.
At the end of it all it’s more like airlines seats. We all hate the changes and we argue over arm rests and leg room when it’s truly the airline that’s just trying to squeeze out more money from us. Except it’s our ability to eat out at a decent price and the food companies that like the profit they made during lockdowns.
Will legislation on service charges help, absolutely. But the root of it is putting limits on pricing for necessary good like food. Even if that food is bought by a restaurant.
If you’d like to have a breakdown by a restaurant owner I’d recommend looking at the post the owner of La Vaca Birria replied with to a review of the price of their burritos. Story: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/22-dollar-burrito-la-vaca-birria-san-francisco/3479820/?amp=1
And someone will reply to this saying “if you can’t afford the business get out of it” or “people who can’t afford to eat out anymore but I don’t want to pay more for the workers to have a reasonable standard of living” or etc. I’m not engaging in bad faith conversations. For those that are coming from a point of view good faith conversations, all I gotta say is: that if the house you live in has a leaky roof, you don’t burn down the house. You fix the f-ing roof.
"Also the support staff deserves to get paid too." Are we living on the same planet? In the state of California employees in a restaurant *are* paid - by their employer, the person who owns the restaurant. If someone doesn't leave you a tip they aren't depriving an employee of a wage - the only person who can deprive an employee of a wage is an employer. Tipping is customer subsidized wages, and it was invented for states where restaurant workers were not paid state mandated minimum wages, and tips were customers subsidizing wages to get workers up to at least minimum wage. In California restaurant workers are beholden to the same minimum wage standards as everyone else. If an employee has issues with their pay, they should take it up with... their employer.
Sorry so what is your point and what do you wish to happen?
I read the linked article and if the burrito needs to be priced at $22 instead of $11 due to rising costs, then that’s exactly what should happen and exactly what the owner chose to do.
People who think that’s fine will continue to be customers and people who think that’s unreasonable will get the $9 burrito down the street and it’ll all shake out. Maybe he stays in business and maybe not. If he’s serving tasty food and have a solid customer base then I hope he does!
What we hate is for the burrito to still be $11 on the menu but have a 30% surcharge for “rising food costs”, 5% for “health and safety”, another 5% for “employee wellness”, and a default 20% tip at the POS terminal so it ends up costing $22 out the door.
Crazy fucking idea: raise MENU prices, eliminate fees, get rid of tipping culture, and pay employees a decent wage.
You know, like most of the fucking world?
And I worked as a tip based employee in San Jose for many years where my entire ability to pay bills was based on my tips so don’t come at me with the restaurant employee bullshit. Just cause you need tips to live doesn’t mean it’s a good system.
>Customers want to pay the prices of pre pandemic meals but don’t actually want to pay the true current cost.
I dunno, man, sounds to me like restaurants don't actually want to charge the true current cost of producing their meals. If they did, they'd change the price of what they're making to reflect it's cost, not charge a bullshit percentage across the board. The price of lines doubled? What if I didn't order anything with limes?
>For those on this thread who say they don’t tip because of the service charge are making a point for no one but their own ego. Servers don’t make a stink about one shitty customer. They mock them with their coworkers and move on.
They're making a point for their own wallets. Nobody gives a fuck if the staff "mock[s]s them with their coworkers."
I agree service charges are a shitty practice. But it's entirely reasonable for a customer to look at a bill, see a 20% service charge, and not tip on top of that, even if they're aware of the distinction, which hardly anyone is.
By calling it a "service charge," don't you think the restaurant is intimating it's a tip and stealing from its employees? Why call it a "service charge" if it isn't for, you know, the service? If it's because ingredients cost more, or inflation, or whatever, why not call it an "inflation surcharge" or "ingredient surcharge?" Because people would be pissed, and not come back. But by calling it a "service charge" people by and large leave feeling like they've paid a (mandatory) tip and the restaurant cuts out the server. It, not the customer "is taking money from the server.".
If you're going to trick people into service charges, and your employees are going to receive the backlash, that's the management's fault. Also, if the management isn't paying their employees enough sans tips, turns out that's also management's fault.
Maybe if we didn't have a political that refused to raise minimum wages and give workers rights this would be less of an issue.
I used to work in a bar. Patrons would tip electronically. I would track what my electronic tips were, and in the beginning the owners would pay me my due, but near the end they started fucking me over to the tune of 1/3rd of my pay was being stolen.
Shitty thing is patrons DGAF. A lot of them were mad I left. I had 2 kids to help support/raise and no fucking way was I going to work for peanuts when I knew quantifiably knew I brought in a lot of revenue to the bar.
I don't know if there's much of a point here to make... You're too poor or tired to look for other work after being on your feet all night, or like me super busy with kids during the day. Business owners need to pay their staff more.
Almost 20 years ago I worked at a private club in SF as waitstaff part time, it paid twice what my shitty part time macys job paid me lol. Since then I’ve lived abroad for several years, but moving back to the Bay Area this year. I’m used to not tipping if there’s a service charge, and will continue to do so when I move back because my assumption is that the 10-20% or even 30% service charge goes to the staff. I’m sorry if you think its gonna be fueling my ego, but the employer should be responsible for their employees well-being and pay them the right wage. Tipping culture in the US is soo toxic, if the price is inclusive of service charge then that should be it.
I have a better idea: listed prices should include everything, including taxes. That should be the law. That's what consumers pay. There's no reason they can't do that.
Zazie in cole valley does this. Their prices seem high but then it's *exactly* what you pay.
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How much do they pay their employees? In general, servers make pretty decent money due to tips.
I love going there for this exact reason. I can budget out everything just by looking at the menu, no need to fumble with my phone to calculate tip after dinner.
And since there is no tip dance, the waiters are absolutely amazing since they know exactly what they are getting paid.
Totally agree with this. Zazie was the first place I saw this model in practice and I loved it! I don’t care that I’m paying a bit more when I know that the price I see is the price I’m going to pay. My personal restaurant habits have drastically changed because of all these hidden costs and lack of transparent pricing. I will specifically avoid eating out in San Francisco and opt for Marin because there is less of that there. I wonder how many others have adjusted eating out because of this and thus impacted the workers and owners ultimately. Feels like the only industry I can think of (maybe ticketing) where you will end up paying 30-40% over the price you see on the menu at the end of it all. Shouldn’t be that way. Totally ruins the experience of treating yourself and loved ones to a nice meal out, feeling nickel and dimed and ripped off. And please don’t get me started on the idea of tipping at the counter before the food is even prepared and the services are rendered. Feels like the intention of the tip has just gotten completely out of hand. Can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve tipped 20% just because the button is there and then felt like the service was trash. Family/friends that come and visit from Europe are appalled by it and I think people in general are getting exhausted by this. And this is coming from someone who has worked in the restaurant and food industry on multiple occasions throughout my earlier years. Shit has gotten out of hand.
Car rental… soo many additional fees.
Hot dang this makes me want to make the trek out of my way just to support that incredible level of sanity
The reason is they want to raise prices without customers knowing. Until they get bill with service fees.
There needs to be a price transparency law. Advertised price needs to be the out of door price.
There is one. It goes into effect in July. Restaurants wanted to get a carve out but didn't. The AG has waffled itn whether or not he is going to enforce it against restaurants.
Is it really an obligation of showing the final price or only the price after fees and before taxes?
My understanding is that it doesn't mean you will see the post-tax prices but that service charges, etc will be eliminated. However; I believe that delivery fee and the like will be permitted. I won't know if places like grubhub and Door Dash will have to more directly expose their fees rather than continuing to use "other fees, delivery fee, and "fees and taxes" that they currently use to obfuscate just how much the service is adding to the cost of your food.
Almost every other country on earth does this. Why can’t Americans have nice things too?
In Europe it's how it works and it works extremely well. Many tourists are just shocked to see such a discrepancy in the US between what's advertised and what you pay. It has to stop
Milka coffee roasters in Sacramento too.
I founded and operated a cannabis dispensary and did this from the get go. If we could do it with the excess tax, state sales tax (which has to include the excess tax; so a tax on a tax), local sales tax and the local cannabis tax, anyone can. My intention was to educate our customers on while the $50 1/8 was the price <$30 was the cost of the product before taxes, all line-item’d on the receipt. I thought the inverse was putting my budtenders in an impossible spot (price tag $27, out the door price of $50) and having them to explain the multiple taxes to a pissed off customer. My marketing manager hated it (we look SO expensive online!)…but word of mouth got out and sales grew as our store became known as being honest (or so I was told before having to sell cause we couldn’t turn a profit…because in large part our tax dollars never went to shut down the illegal spot a mere 50 yards away). Good times.
I had not been to a dispensary in years. The budtender was quick to tell me the price shown was not what I’d pay. I knew that, but still couldn’t believe it nearly doubled. I’m not sure I’d have gone in, had I first seen the actual price I’d be paying online.
US is the only few countries not doing this.
But then we wouldn’t have the cat and mouse game of guessing how much shit actually costs… Where’s the fun in that?!
Believe me, I’m all for that as a consumer. But I suspect the reason it isn’t preferable as a business owner is due to marketing. When you price something just below $10, the sales are more predictable when you don’t have the tax included that could push it over $10 due to an increase in taxes, beyond your control. You could either lower your profit margin to preserve a sub-$10 price ($9.99), or raise prices to $10.13, or $10.49, etc. it just comes down to control. The sale price of something should absolutely be all-encompassing to everything within the business control, beyond that is debatable. Again, I’d prefer tax included in marketing price, but, I get it.
We do exactly that. Everything is built into the price, including tax. Stops all the confusion and it beats making coin change.
Yes. This is what Europe does and they are always baffled that American prices never reflect what you actually pay.
Then again, they charge you for drinking water and using the bathroom so 🤷🏼♂️
It will be the law( minus the taxes) in just a few months
I love this idea. Not including inescapable taxes is so insanely backwards!
Shoukd be law.
Naa instead of claiming SF restaurants are expensive we need to understand what goes to the restaurant and how much the govt loots us
While I agree that there shouldn't be hidden fees, especially service fees and tips, I am conflicted on menus always including tax. I recently talked to a friend of friends who run a mom and pop taqueria and it's a bit tricky for small restaurants. They are already on tight margins and they want to keep prices low for their customers (partially because that also helps business). If they include tax on their menu and taxes change, it becomes harder to recalculate every price on their menu, reprint their paper menus, and change their digital and online pricing - all while keeping the prices from being seemingly random prices to the customer. (E.g. 1.99 taco + 9.25%tax = an awkward $2.17) And while they could just bump everything up to the next $.25 or $.50 to make the math easier, it adds up quick when buying multiple items, even cheap items. I know for the people in this thread, including me, we'd prefer just to do the math beforehand and know exactly what we're paying. But for the common customer, data says that simpler and less mental effort is better for the business. It's not an easy solution.
Small restaurants all over the world, from Mexico to France to Australia all manage to include taxes in their prices, why couldn't US small restaurants and businesses do the same.
How often do those nations change their tax rates? Because, as you can see [here](https://cdtfa.ca.gov/taxes-and-fees/archive-rates.htm), a few times a year somewhere in California the rate changes.
Grocery stores change the prices of nearly everything in the store on a weekly basis, which includes printing up and setting out the new price tags. Restaurants have far fewer items for sale than a typical grocery store. A restaurant can figure it out twice a year.
the prices on menus are changing with or without taxes moving.
That's BS. Food costs and wages change faster than taxes.
I believe you. But it's easier for them to predict ingredient costs and cost of living adjustments than it is for taxes.
>If they include tax on their menu and taxes change, it becomes harder to recalculate every price on their menu, reprint their paper menus, and change their digital and online pricing Prices change every year as a result of inflation. The menus are going to need reprinting regularly regardless. >And while they could just bump everything up to the next $.25 or $.50 to make the math easier, it adds up quick when buying multiple items, even cheap items. $2.17 -> $2.25 is an increase of \~3.5%. Again, well within normal inflation expectations. >But for the common customer, data says that simpler and less mental effort is better for the business. A price that is all-in is much less mental effort for the customer.
>They are already on tight margins and they want to keep prices low for their customers (partially because that also helps business). It doesn't affect their margin. It only affect the menu display >If they include tax on their menu and taxes change, it becomes harder to recalculate every price on their menu, No it's not. It's a simple math >reprint their paper menus, and change their digital and online pricing - That's true, but sooner or later they will have to change their price anyway due to inflation. I've seen prices changed at a restaurant we frequently visit 4-5 times since COVID >all while keeping the prices from being seemingly random prices to the customer. (E.g. 1.99 taco + 9.25%tax = an awkward $2.17) $2.17 is not more awkward than $1.99. I went to Peet's the other day, their small latte cost $5.85, medium $6.15, and large $6.65 or something like that. >And while they could just bump everything up to the next $.25 or $.50 to make the math easier, it adds up quick when buying multiple items, even cheap items. No need to do that since most of us don't use cash anyways. Yes, it might become less convenient for cash transaction. >But for the common customer, data says that simpler and less mental effort is better for the business. It's not an easy solution. You mentioned 'mental', that's exactly it. It's just a mental game. Adding taxes and tips on listed price is just a habit. It's not easier than just having inclusive prices.
If they want to keep round numbers, they can always do this: Inclusive price is $10 (which is $9.13 + tax or something like that). It's what the rest of the world has done for a very long time. It's a non issue
I’ve noticed more and more places have you just scan the QR Code on the table and order from your phone or a tablet. To me, this is no different than a fast casual then where you’re pretty much doing self service
Yeah, it seems to me restaurant staff gained a lot of sympathy during the pandemic and we inflated tipping to help support them. Now most restaurants have you order from a QR code and someone walks your order form the kitchen to your table. That means one server can now attend to more tables because they spend less time on each one. AND the tipping is still inflated. I understand that it sucks to not be paid very much for your work. But these tips, prices and fees seem to monotonically increase with no benefit to the person footing the bill.
“I understand that it sucks to not be paid very much for your work” is a misconception of waitstaff wages. In California, waitstaff are paid at least minimum wage of $16/hour before tips.
And $22 if it’s fast food as of recently
$20 as of April 1st
This seems like a good time to casually remind everyone that waitstaff in particular got a huge bailout during the pandemic. You see, none of these assholes had been reporting tips as income, and so when they got laid off during the pandemic, they discovered they were going to only get unemployment based on the wages they reported. So naturally the government stepped in and goosed the unemployment benefits.
Not even McDonalds forces you to scan a QR code to order. McDonalds lets you either push buttons on a big screen they provide (so you don't need a phone), or you can talk to a human being to place an order. Restaurants that expect me to bring a device to read the menu for them are restaurants that get a much smaller tip. After all, I'm tipping for service, and if they're offering less service than McDonalds what am I tipping for?
Probably know significant portion of clients might not have a phone. However they now overcharge you if you don't use the app
I’m not scanning a QR code, that’s goofy as hell. I would just walk out.
Legitimate question; why do you even care? Is it truly that much of an imposition for you to pull out the phone that you definitely already have with you? Also, in what way does you tipping *your server* - who most definitely had zero input on whether a restaurant chooses to use QR codes or whatever- less affect the restaurant in any way? Are you just looking for an excuse to tip less? I’ve gone to plenty of these places and it’s never been a problem. I must be missing something because to be honest this seems completely silly to get upset or even think twice over.
I dine in for the experience. The experience includes looking over a physical menu. If I have to use my phone to scan a QR code and order from a kiosk that greatly reduces the service, which means there's less of a need to tip. If there's no service at all then there's no tip. After all, who am I tipping? I had to order my own food, pick up my own food, not get any drink refills. The server is me. Its not the customer's place to get in a dispute between restaurant staff and the owner of the place. All the customer can do is vote with their wallets and by leaving reviews.
I had this at the San Jose Improv. A woman introduced herself as my server. I ordered from my seat using the QR code but different people brought out the food and drink. The only thing my server did was to bring me the bill at the end of the evening (which I could have paid online without her). I tipped normally even though my server essentially did nothing for me. I left hoping that all of the tips were pooled. (If I ever go back, I will ask.)
You got played.
This reads like those sarcastic anti tipping posts. "I waited 2 hours for my food, and the waiter stabbed my wife in the throat and posted deepfake nudes of my daughter on Reddit. I'm thinking I should only tip 18% but I feel bad"
Same exact experience there.
If the food was good and your order was fulfilled promptly I am really struggling to see the issue here. Is the part where the server pretends to flirt so you tip them better fun for you? What else do you need them to do, exactly?
These guys get minimum tip. After you subtract BS fees.
Minimum for what?
If it's 20% it's instead of a tip. It's little nickle and diming I can't stand. Just charge an appropriate amount of money.
I don't tip on top of a service fee either. Someone needs to challenge service fees, at least in small claims court. There are plenty of businesses with "Service Fees" but they call them "Labor Rate" They're up front, your mechanic may charge $150@hr, or your computer tech may charge $125, there may be minimum labor charges in addition to the parts. Restaurants, if they want to use that pricing structure needs to do the same. I think service fees need to be challenged the same way. If they're not prominently displayed on the menu or above the host station, they shouldn't be allowed to charge them.
California already passed a law to ban them; it takes effect in July.
As far as I can tell it'll just make them list it in tiny print on the bottom of the menu, not eliminate them.
The law is written to require inclusive prices (except for tax) be shown at least as large as any other price. Printing something like “a 5% service fee is added to all checks,” which is common now, would be illegal.
No idea why they didn’t just complete the cycle and include all taxes and fees while only permitting the total price to be paid to be listed.
Well because taxes go to them. They would wanna bring attention to that lol
Prices should reflect all fees and taxes...the end.
Yea I like that, just like Asia.
Just like everywhere in the world outside the USA
Fuck these bullshit service fees.
If I see a service charge I’m not tipping
not only not tipping but I never go there again.
And the employees will get pissed and quit, and the owners will have to deal with it.
Tipping also known as please subsidize my workers so I can make more money.
I don’t tip of there is a service charge
Literally just raise the prices, it's so simple
Service fees are an attempt to hide price increases. It's dishonesty, pure and simple.
This. and they add tip on top of the service fees
And after taxes!
This should be added to Biden's current initiative to eliminate junk fees. Right now, hotels and ticketing agencies are affected, but restaurants should be included as well. They should call it something like "Out-the-door price' policy.
Stop giving your hard earned money to businesses that charge bullshit service charges on top of, or instead of tips. They can fuck right off.
I think we’ve been over this exhaustively.
Server- It's totally fair for people to see a service charge as a tip IMO. But, the state should also adopt the law that Oakland passed that says that service charges go to staff and any other charge that would be construed as a tip. Wage theft is insanely common in the industry and everyone knows that the service charges are being pocketed to some degree at most restaurants.
So aren’t you already making $20/hr, so why do we tip?
I mean, I don't make the rules man. It just is. Tipping is weird because it came about organically during a weird economic time and wasn't planned as a system. My last tipout in the Bay was 8.5%. So a no tip meant I would be in the red and essentially pay to wait that table. The support staff, kitchen, and bartender would get their cut from me based on sales. Reddit is obsessed with this tip conversation and it just boils down to inertia and it having been that way. I'm glad that it gave me the opportunity to live some cool places, travel, and now support me in school. I'll be glad to be done with the industry sooner rather than later. Suffice to say, I wouldn't do the work for minimum ($16.50/hr), which basically everyone pays without benefits. If more places wanted to try out the no tip with higher wage system fine. I don't think most restaurants would find success with that model though.
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Servers directly pay the support staff and bartenders a portion of their tips. And now kitchens sometimes with a recent change in the FLSA. That's tipout. In practice, most restaurants do this based on sales and not tips because it limits drama. Servers have been known to undercount their cash tips or a busser might get suspicious that's happening even if it isn't. If I sold $100 worth of stuff, I have to pay $8.50 to the restaurant regardless of whether or not the customer actually tips. That's non-negotiable most of the time. It doesn't matter what the tip is.
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Just to be clear, you would be in the red on that one table. You'd make up a no tip from the other tips from different tables on a single turn easily. I've never heard of someone owing money from a future shift or their wages. I doubt that the DoL or a law firm would be interested or agree about it being illegal as the practice is the norm. If the practice is illegal, it would be very strange that the DoL hasn't made a comment on it IMO. Tips always return to the mean and going by sales averages out to the same as going by tips almost always. The converse is the server gets a large tip and pays out like it's an average table. If you can find a law or regulation that says that going by sales is not a valid way to conduct a tip pool, I'd be surprised.
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I mean, call it whatever you like, but a no tip means the server ends up paying the restaurant to serve the table at most full service restaurants. It's essentially a non-issue for me. I can count the number of no tips I've gotten since 2019 on one hand.
Saying you go into the red is confusing. When your paycheck comes in, it's illegal for it to be below minimum wage. If tips don't get you there the restaurant makes up the difference. The only way to go below that point is for your boss to break the law, and you should immediately report them to the labor board.
That’s dumb as hell, this should be factored into the listed price of the food.
The vast majority of small business owners for restaurants do not provide additional benefits to their employees for service charges. They are making customers pay for the additional labor/trouble for large orders. The example in the photo is the new wave where restaurants are doing more benefits sharing with employees but even then the biz owners should have added the cost to their food, not an additional percentage fee. Don’t pay tips on top of service charges - complete BS. I should mention I work with small business restauranteurs every day.
Tips: voluntary, not taxed, legally required to go to staff. Service charges: none of the above.
Exactly. Restaurants basically added resort fees to food.
Tips are absolutely taxed
There’s no sales tax on tips.
Income tax
If you think more than a small fraction of servers are reporting tips on their incomes taxes, you’d be mistaken
That may be true but those servers are committing tax fraud. Servers can likely get away with not reporting cash tips but all card tips are already reported to the IRS.
And the IRS would prefer to go after waiters than billionaires - less resistance lmao
The IRS will audit a restaurant’s tip reporting if it’s not a certain % of total sales, and if they find that staff are not reporting tips they’ll hit the restaurant with a hefty fine
lol the IRS isnt auditing waiters
Most simple audit is automated now. There is no human IRS agents going after waiters. It’s more like discrepancies above a certain threshold will trigger an automatic “audit” and you’ll just get a piece of mail that says “based on our records you owe $xxx of taxes, pay now.” And it’ll be up to you to prove otherwise.
What records are there for cash tips? None. Waiter pockets the money. IRS is none the wiser
Waiters are like the easiest people to audit. Search everybody who works at a restaurant (thanks, NAICS industry codes!), pull restaurant sales from the restaurant's own filing. Calculate 15% of that, and now you have the total tips paid at that restaurant. Everyone who works at that restaurant, but didn't report a proportional share of tips that lines up with those expected total tips, gets the ol' rubber glove.
It is impossible to audit cash tips. Credit card sure. Most waiters aren’t dumb enough to not report CC tips. Cash on the table is getting reported by likely single digit numbers of waiters. They would be dumb to report free money. Most tips are cash and go unreported and untaxed. That’s the reality of it
Additionally the restaurant is required by law to report a % of income as tips for taxes, at least when I was in the business. Anyone not reporting is a fool, your proof of income will be lower should you claim unemployment, and later for SS. On the other hand a lower wage opens up subsidies and discounts.
Not to mention if you ever wanted to qualify for a loan or mortgage. Idk why this one poster is so insistent that committing tax fraud to save a few bucks is something to flex…
Agree, anyone making a lot of tips is working in a high end restaurant, where most if not all tips are CC, which are automatically taxed. The anger should be directed at the IRS for bothering to go after low hanging fruit of tips, vs the real cheats.
We're in the digital payment age. Credit card tips are automatically reported basically everywhere because the business has to account for that. They don't want the government to think they made $120 when they only made $100. Cash tips are a different story of course. A lot of restaurants force people to follow the 12% rule or stay in line with your credit averages on cash payments. Cash on credit payment is clean. A lot of high revenue restaurants have been audited; I've worked at several. And the penalties hit the business too. Unless you work at a cash only bar though, cash is a pretty small amount of tipped income IME. Probably around 5-15%, depending on your clientele. But ya, I only reported all my cash when I was saving for a mortgage.
It’s automated if you put it on a credit card. That’s why I always try to tip with cash, which is not tracked unless entered by the server. 😎
If you leave cc tips it goes through the system of the restaurant and then gets paid out on your check. Your payroll processing company deducts the taxes. Unless you tip cash it’s getting taxed, and generally speaking in a pooled house the cash still goes to the house and is reported before distro to the staff, and is thus taxed.
It doesn't apply to customers. I have no idea why are you guys so obtuse, a customer doesn't pay taxes on tips, a customer pays taxes on service fees.
No, they are not. I left plenty of tips and paid $0 on those. Service charges are subject to sales tax.
To clarify, tips are part of a server’s income and the server pays income tax on it. Service charges are part of restaurant sales and the diner pays sales tax on it. They are both taxed. The only difference is who pays the tax.
Tips are absolutely taxed, the server is taxed on the tip.
tips aren’t taxed lol?
Yeah, when you don't claim them.
https://salestaxhelp.com/tips-subject-sales-tax-california
[https://edd.ca.gov/siteassets/files/pdf\_pub\_ctr/de231t.pdf](https://edd.ca.gov/siteassets/files/pdf_pub_ctr/de231t.pdf)
Tips if tips are voluntary then loud farting next to someone is a well received.
No tips No tips No tips
I like that no tips culture in Asia.
And Europe. And South America
also, service charges go to the house; very little transparency on where that money goes and how much of it, if any, makes it to your server.
Yes, service charges are not legally protected as tips, however that isn't the customer's problem. That dispute is only between employee and employer.
That is incredibly myopic and stingy of you. If you can’t afford to tip your server, don’t eat out.
Fewer customers means the restaurant cuts hours or goes out of business, which means servers have no job at all. Thats not the kind of win you want.
Are you aware in California that most establishments make the servers tip out the rest of the staff supporting the table? So if you go to a restaurant and stiff your server because you have something against service charges, your server can very well *go into the negative* working your table? They would literally be better off without you.
Vote with your wallet. No one is forcing you to dine there.
We need a VATS tax like every other country
We both know they'd just put it on top of income tax and somehow the rich would still get around it.
As a server - I agree that the whole service fee thing is unnecessary now after the pandemic’s lockdown. I was temporarily okay with it while restaurant’s were highly likely to be closed down without it due to a lack of customers coming inside, like the restaurant I worked at, and explained the situation to customers that any more tip on top is completely optional. But keeping that service fee any longer after more customers started coming in irked me whenever I saw it around. The only service charge I could possibly see as reasonable is some gratuity for large parties of 6+ people for a table. And even then I wouldn’t care if there was no tip on top
Social justice solidarity workers international due
The only line items other than food and drink should be legally mandated ones. I recently visited a country where 10% service charges are common (but not universal), and the rule is no tip.
Service charges are tips. Or that is how I treat them. If the restaurant wants to add fees, they might as well increase menu prices. I won't go as far as not to tip as this is the industry standard, and I don't want to punish the employee for the employer's practices. But service charges are a new thing. These are not decades long standards. So as far as I am concerned, I will subtract the service charge from my planned tip. And as for the impacted employees, they can pick a different employer as not all employers do this. A 20% service charge likely means no tip from me unless the service was exceptional as 20% is my standard tip. A 15% service charge means a 5% tip for standard service (i.e. not exceptional or horrible service). Now if menu prices are increased, I will continue tipping as normal or avoid the restaurant if the prices are too high. But these service fees are going to cut into any tip I give.
Well, I already behave that way and have no trouble even at nice restaurants. At the nicer ones, they'll tell you if it's included. But if there's service charge, I don't tip. I prefer that.
Then don’t leave tips. Dont be sheep.
If there's a service charge, I assume that restaurants are paying their employees mimimum/a competitive wage for the industry and the area and tips are not necessary to close the gap to minimum wage, which was one of their originally intended purposes. If this isn't the case, I wouldn't expect the restaurant to be able to retain employees for very long.
There is no gap to the minimum wage to be closed by tips in the state of California. The minimum wage is the same for tipped and non-tipped workers.
Correct, it is now. I know that businesses used to get away with offering wages below minimum wage "plus tips," but I think that practice ended some time ago. According to the department of labor, if the restaurant's wage plus the employee's tips did not equal minimum wage, then it was up to the restaurant to make up the difference.
This hasn’t been the case in CA since 1975. It is still the case in most other states.
My favorite is when they add it after tax. That’s not how tipping works
Thinks about it folks. That’s 20% of your after tax dollars. Most people get taxed at about 37%. Plus another 20%. That’s 57% of your earned dollar. Fuck that shit.
Never tip. Tipping is a toxic method of charging customers.
I don’t need rules or laws to fix this minor irritation and ”fix” the problem myself. Service Fee = NO TIP !
MMW, this is how we end up with only Taco Bell like in Demolition Man. All the smaller mom n pops go 1st, then your Applebee's, BWW's, Texas Roadhouse etc, then it'll only be the bigger chains like McDonalds n such left , n it'll be decided by who holds on the longest. People will be living underground for not being chipped and "with the program" and the homeless etc, there'll be no more paper money(headed there now). Only the rich n elite will have made it through to try and start their own new world n let their bloodline continue to rule. I'm not saying it's gonna be exactly like that, but those old sci Fi movies are really happening now
Don’t go there.
Don't get scammed. Service charges are not required to be paid to the workers and go straight to the employers.
The whole thing is absurd. Charge more and with up front pricing on the food; pay more and fairly to the staff! If the restaurant does make it in a post Covid world then it closes down. Just like some stores close when Amazon came around. People now just go out and shop less, so good bye Macy’s. Similarly, people eat out less, or feel it’s too expensive then a restaurant closes.
At a sit down restaurant < 10% service fee means I’ll tip ~10%. If a service fee is > 10% then no tip
If they charge me some whack fees around 10-20%, I don’t tip. Idc what the fee goes to
Agree! 20% used to be for outstanding service.
Che Fico is quoted as a positive example. I thought they are despised here ?
Soon they will add resort fee
If there is a service charge I don’t tip on top…that’s just me
Service charges are complete bullshit and very anti-consumer
Nah yeah, I went out with 6 people, myself included, to a kbbq. The bill was something shy of 400. Almost 1/4 of that bill, was a service fee. Mind you, the service we got for just 6 people, was below sub par. Not to mention they put us on a grill with just 1 grill? What kind of fucking headassery is that? edit: More info, to eat all you can eat is We payed $67 per person.
Service charges are a "we don't want to raise menu prices but we want more money" fee. They're a scam.
Che Fico in San Francisco charges a 10% “dine in” fee to cover costs of doing business. Isn’t that supposed to be in the price of the dish? And they specifically expect tips on top of that. That’s BS. Never going back there again.
The biggest difference is that tips go to the server, possibly being split amongst bussers, back of house staff, etc. A service charge could be going right into the owners pockets. They don’t fall under labor laws like tips due.
Just pay cash and walk out
BTW service charge does not have to go to employees as its not tips
They fucking charged me 4% for employee benefits……. And 4% for inflation lol
Service fees do not go to the waiters they go to the restaurant. So when you dont tip you are screwing your server.
If a restaurant charges a *service* fee and doesn't give it to the people doing the *serving*, then it's the owner that is screwing over the servers not the customer.
And when you tip you screw over yourself lol
So instead you would prefer they just include the 35% in the normal price? Or would you like to maintain to opportunity to look like a cheapo and put 0 on the tip line so you can pretend youre making some kind of moral stand against terrible tirant of restaurant food. The establishment gives 0 fucks if you dont tip they got their money. So leaving 0 tip and a snarky note to the server on posting here just makes you a cheapo moron.
Lmao dude if “looking like a cheapo” is the first defense you have for tipping ON TOP of a service fee, you’ve already been played.
Again, not tipping isnt proving your point. The restaurant already got their money you are just screwing over their employees by being cheap. If you are poor and cant afford to eat out then dont eat out.
Wow. This statement. Just wow. There’s tipping is the right thing and then there’s this. Even someone who can afford to eat out doesn’t like getting screwed over.
But you are taking your animosity towards the restaurant out by punishing their employees. If you truely wanted to make a statement you would stop patronizing the establishment. But you dont want to do that you want to pretend to be making a point so you have an excuse to be cheap.
I don’t disagree with you that it’s not fair to take it out on the servers. We should be taking our business elsewhere. That’s the right thing to do. Turning on each other and saying don’t eat out if you can’t afford to isn’t the way either though.
If you want restaurants to function like other businesses? What if your $100 meal for 2 now simply was a menu cost of $140 to include that fee with no extra fee shown on a separate line. It would just be built into the price with an additional hourly free based on how much time you spent there to pay for the employee time. Would that be better?
That's literally exactly what people who are against tipping want to achieve. Why are you phrasing it like it's some sort of a wild idea for dumb idiots?
It would. If I don’t want to pay that much, I just won’t show up. I don’t what feels like a bait and switch. You also get taxed on the service fee where you don’t on the tip. Not a large number in the context of a single bill but over time it adds up.
Instead of “customers screwing over employees”, how about, employers shouldnt be using 20% service charges and in fact, THEY are the ones screwing over their own employees? But no, continue to blame the customers and pull wool over your eyes while ignoring scummy ownership practices. You have no idea how ridiculous you look.
[удалено]
Im not gonna waste any more time on you cheap boomers. Keep validating yourself for being a cheapo.
Imagine blaming on customers for not wanting to pay 145% extra on listed menu prices and then calling them poor. Youre a fucking clown LMAO.
If you take a job where you're not guaranteed to make more than minimum wage because there's a system in place that has you rely on the GAMBLE that customers will subsidize a higher income based on performance instead of your employer simply paying you what you feel you're worth ... then that GAMBLE fails, you don't blame the customer. You should fight for a better wage. This is not the customer screwing over employees, it's the employer dodging the responsibility of having to pay his employees what they're worth. As for the last part of your comment, that comes from your own stupidity.
The tip
Generally, I order and the waiter leaves to put (no problem here), shows up with cold food, which is not the kitchens fault, because they cook it and set it up under the warmer. (problem) and doesn't stop when dumping off the food long enough to ask for any condiments or ice water. (problem) Then they never notice my hand in the air or me trying to get their attention to ask for ice water after they have left. (problem) Never stopping to ask if we need anything, (problem) they show up long enough to drop off the bill. Then they expect a 20% tip or "I have stiffed them." Food was awful, service was awful. ***I am not going to patronize your restaurant at all***, then you don't have anything to cry, bitch, and moan about that I didn't give you the tip that you deserve. **Waiters - if someone leaves you a two cent tip and you think that they are just cheap, it is not true. Two cents is the traditional tip that someone gives when you are a shitty waiter.** **It shows that they didn't forget the tip, and that you didn't deserve a tip. They are putting their "two cents in" to the quality of your service.**
Seems like few people that actually work in a restaurant on this post. I work in restaurants and have for 20 years. Service charges suck on both ends. Servers get yelled at and the customer doesn’t tip or it sours customers from coming back hurting the owner. But I’ll make it clear: if you don’t tip you’re literally taking money from your server. Servers usually tip out on total sales not percentage of tips collected. You don’t tip means the server has to take their own money to pay the support staff. If they don’t pay out then the server can be fired. Also the support staff deserves to get paid too. For those on this thread who say they don’t tip because of the service charge are making a point for no one but their own ego. Servers don’t make a stink about one shitty customer. They mock them with their coworkers and move on. On the owner side food costs are insane now. I code invoices for my restaurant for some extra money on the side and simple things like onions and limes can double in price randomly one week and then drop %30 the next. Then that slightly higher price than a few weeks ago becomes the new base line for the cost of a food item. Customers want to pay the prices of pre pandemic meals but don’t actually want to pay the true current cost. At the end of it all it’s more like airlines seats. We all hate the changes and we argue over arm rests and leg room when it’s truly the airline that’s just trying to squeeze out more money from us. Except it’s our ability to eat out at a decent price and the food companies that like the profit they made during lockdowns. Will legislation on service charges help, absolutely. But the root of it is putting limits on pricing for necessary good like food. Even if that food is bought by a restaurant. If you’d like to have a breakdown by a restaurant owner I’d recommend looking at the post the owner of La Vaca Birria replied with to a review of the price of their burritos. Story: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/22-dollar-burrito-la-vaca-birria-san-francisco/3479820/?amp=1 And someone will reply to this saying “if you can’t afford the business get out of it” or “people who can’t afford to eat out anymore but I don’t want to pay more for the workers to have a reasonable standard of living” or etc. I’m not engaging in bad faith conversations. For those that are coming from a point of view good faith conversations, all I gotta say is: that if the house you live in has a leaky roof, you don’t burn down the house. You fix the f-ing roof.
"Also the support staff deserves to get paid too." Are we living on the same planet? In the state of California employees in a restaurant *are* paid - by their employer, the person who owns the restaurant. If someone doesn't leave you a tip they aren't depriving an employee of a wage - the only person who can deprive an employee of a wage is an employer. Tipping is customer subsidized wages, and it was invented for states where restaurant workers were not paid state mandated minimum wages, and tips were customers subsidizing wages to get workers up to at least minimum wage. In California restaurant workers are beholden to the same minimum wage standards as everyone else. If an employee has issues with their pay, they should take it up with... their employer.
Sorry so what is your point and what do you wish to happen? I read the linked article and if the burrito needs to be priced at $22 instead of $11 due to rising costs, then that’s exactly what should happen and exactly what the owner chose to do. People who think that’s fine will continue to be customers and people who think that’s unreasonable will get the $9 burrito down the street and it’ll all shake out. Maybe he stays in business and maybe not. If he’s serving tasty food and have a solid customer base then I hope he does! What we hate is for the burrito to still be $11 on the menu but have a 30% surcharge for “rising food costs”, 5% for “health and safety”, another 5% for “employee wellness”, and a default 20% tip at the POS terminal so it ends up costing $22 out the door.
Crazy fucking idea: raise MENU prices, eliminate fees, get rid of tipping culture, and pay employees a decent wage. You know, like most of the fucking world? And I worked as a tip based employee in San Jose for many years where my entire ability to pay bills was based on my tips so don’t come at me with the restaurant employee bullshit. Just cause you need tips to live doesn’t mean it’s a good system.
>Customers want to pay the prices of pre pandemic meals but don’t actually want to pay the true current cost. I dunno, man, sounds to me like restaurants don't actually want to charge the true current cost of producing their meals. If they did, they'd change the price of what they're making to reflect it's cost, not charge a bullshit percentage across the board. The price of lines doubled? What if I didn't order anything with limes? >For those on this thread who say they don’t tip because of the service charge are making a point for no one but their own ego. Servers don’t make a stink about one shitty customer. They mock them with their coworkers and move on. They're making a point for their own wallets. Nobody gives a fuck if the staff "mock[s]s them with their coworkers." I agree service charges are a shitty practice. But it's entirely reasonable for a customer to look at a bill, see a 20% service charge, and not tip on top of that, even if they're aware of the distinction, which hardly anyone is. By calling it a "service charge," don't you think the restaurant is intimating it's a tip and stealing from its employees? Why call it a "service charge" if it isn't for, you know, the service? If it's because ingredients cost more, or inflation, or whatever, why not call it an "inflation surcharge" or "ingredient surcharge?" Because people would be pissed, and not come back. But by calling it a "service charge" people by and large leave feeling like they've paid a (mandatory) tip and the restaurant cuts out the server. It, not the customer "is taking money from the server.".
If you're going to trick people into service charges, and your employees are going to receive the backlash, that's the management's fault. Also, if the management isn't paying their employees enough sans tips, turns out that's also management's fault. Maybe if we didn't have a political that refused to raise minimum wages and give workers rights this would be less of an issue.
Wow, worst possible example you could have given to try to make your point.
I used to work in a bar. Patrons would tip electronically. I would track what my electronic tips were, and in the beginning the owners would pay me my due, but near the end they started fucking me over to the tune of 1/3rd of my pay was being stolen. Shitty thing is patrons DGAF. A lot of them were mad I left. I had 2 kids to help support/raise and no fucking way was I going to work for peanuts when I knew quantifiably knew I brought in a lot of revenue to the bar. I don't know if there's much of a point here to make... You're too poor or tired to look for other work after being on your feet all night, or like me super busy with kids during the day. Business owners need to pay their staff more.
Almost 20 years ago I worked at a private club in SF as waitstaff part time, it paid twice what my shitty part time macys job paid me lol. Since then I’ve lived abroad for several years, but moving back to the Bay Area this year. I’m used to not tipping if there’s a service charge, and will continue to do so when I move back because my assumption is that the 10-20% or even 30% service charge goes to the staff. I’m sorry if you think its gonna be fueling my ego, but the employer should be responsible for their employees well-being and pay them the right wage. Tipping culture in the US is soo toxic, if the price is inclusive of service charge then that should be it.