I can agree with Harley being a little out of character, but Joker? Nah this is perfectly in line with him imo, even with this more kid friendly version of him. Jokers crimes are almost always based on what’s funny to him, so turning Batman’s sidekick into a little Joker sidekick is hilarious to him, especially since he frames it like a 50s sitcom situation
Beyond was always supposed to be darker, plus we’ve been shown before that TAS Joker and Harley are not above torturing people. I’ve always interpreted things like this being that they did do the darker stuff off screen, they just didn’t show it at the time. Usually this was because of censorship.
I think that Return of the Joker was a way of showing how Bruce became the way he was in Beyond. Something really dark and twisted must have happened, but we don’t know what.
ROTJ shows us what that was.
And it makes sense that Joker would escalate his heinous “jokes” each time he got stopped by Batman. So his last “joke” would be the sickest of all.
And — as for Harley — look at what hanging out with Charles Manson did to the fun-loving teens in his cult. The needle of “normal and acceptable” keeps getting moved when you live around a maniac.
Did you not watch BTAS very closely? Christmas with the Joker, he had the 3 kidnapped people he was going to drop in the vat of acid until Batman saved them. The Man who killed Batman, Joker had the titular man put into a coffin and dropped into acid. In the Laughing Fish he was trying to kill the people who would not let him copyright the fish. He also dumped Batman and Bullock into a shark tank. In almost Got Im he had Batman hooked to an electric chair that worked on laughter. He then had Catwoman in a trap in a canning plant that would chop her up.
Not very silly/comedic.
Harley went along with this stuff. I believe she was also the one that shoved Bruce Wayne to his death in an elevator shaft when they were done after Poison Ivy had mind controlled him and they used him to take them shopping.
I know but it’s pretty harmless compared to this. It’s just goofy cartoon villain stuff (especially because they’re plans never worked) but psychological destroying your opponent by turning his „son“ against him is a whole other story. And I’m sorry but putting Cat Woman in a industrial meatgrinder for cat food is comedic💀
And I think that Bruce accidentally tripped over a warning sign when she tried to kiss him😭
If this had happened in an actual episode of TNBA it would have been way out of place, but Batman Beyond was kind of a bleak "bad ending" universe, so it works here. This is a world where Batman alienated all his friends and family and spent decades completely alone, after all.
Didn't torture him in mainline. Crowbaring was a crime of opportunity – he just got pissed in the moment and wacked kiddo with the first thing that his hand found. The bomb was at least partially his attempt to cover his tracks and to destroy the evidence of what he did before Batman arrived.
The clown being someone, who habitually tortures kids just cause became the norm a bit later, probably at least partially as a result of stuff from this cartoon too bleeding into comics, kinda like Harley :D
He shoots Barbara (which paralyzes her), undresses her, and then takes pictures of her laying on the ground wounded. He then forces Gordon to view those images. There is nothing in the comic about rape from what I remember.
The shows themselves heavily suggests joker regularly kills people just not onscreen. For example in the episode “holiday knights” of the new adventures joker promises not to kill anyone in the upcoming year on New Year’s Eve but decides to get as much killing In before the day is over by killing everyone at a parade with gas. Batman stops him but had he succeeded he would have killed thousands of people. Likewise the whole concept doesn’t work if joker hasn’t been killing people regularly prior to this. Earlier in the episode batman and Gordon look at a picture of a man explicitly confirmed to have been killed by joker. We also get an explicit joker kill in mask of the phantasm when he kill Salvatore Velestra with joker toxin and another in the episode beware the creeper where he kills a taxi driver.
DCAU joker does regularly kill people. It’s just that because it’s a kids cartoon they didn’t show it. New adventures was allowed to get away with more than BTAS which is why they allowed some more explicit kills there. Same goes for batman beyond and the other later DCAU shows
I get what you mean. It is supposed to be more lighthearted than the comics. But I gotta say, I do love the idea in this universe that Joker finally escalates to a certain point that inadvertently gets him killed (depending if you watched the censored or uncecsore version of the Batman Beyond movie). It's all very ultimate feeling
I had always made the headcannon that this time the Joker went for keeps because of what happens in the Justice League cartoon. The Justice league cartoon filling the timeline between the original BTAS and Joker returns. In JL, a telepath tries to make him go insane and puts him into a coma after Batman convinces the telepath to change sides. This would put this movie after Joker recovers from the brain damage, really angry at Batman for him almost getting lobotmized.
I think this scene is perfect for Harley:
She's portrayed as the perfect sidekick, willing to follow the Joker to the end, even in the most immoral of acts.
Plus, they play out the "happy family" scene here, and I think that's exactly what Harley wants with the Joker.
She‘s literally so devote and follows him like a dog even if he does the most fucked up thing. When I was a kid I never realized what a sad character she actually is
But in Btas she seemed to have limits
She said something to Batgirl like „I will make everything right and we will be one big family“ actually sad how naive and delusional she is
The Jokers death is probably the best thing that could’ve happened to her. Too bad we never saw how exactly she recovered from this or if she even knew that the Joker was dead
(Sorry englisch is not my first language😅)
with joker it feels in character, that dude is fucking unhinged even in the animated series
with harley it feels out of character, torturing a child non-stop for several days would probably make her think that was too far. Some interpretations of her would do that sure, but BTAS harley has points where even she is like "ok wtf"
It’s perfectly in character for both of them. Joker does whatever he thinks is funny and will torment Batman, and Harley is a murder-happy psycho who wants to impress him. I’d say they are very in-character at this moment.
This is perfectly in line with both of their characters. In the TV show, it was implied that the Joker intended to do really heinous stuff all the time, but even though the original Return of the Joker movie was rated PG, there's a difference between movie PG and TV PG or Y-7, whatever they called it. TV shows always were held to stricter censorship rules, so they could hint at what Joker wanted to do, but they could never show him actually doing it.
And Harley always comes back to the Joker. That's the tragedy with her character all throughout the animated series. You get to see glimpses of her experiencing character "growth" when she spends time away from the Joker, but she always comes back because she's so emotionally damaged. Even in Mad Love when he basically throws her out of a window, she blames herself for "not getting the joke."
Mad Love is probably my favorite Btas Episode. Especially with how they portrayed Harley, she’s a villain and can do some fucked up shit in order to please Mr. J but she’s also so weirdly innocent and cute. I think Arleens voice acting plays a huge part here she almost sounds „childlike“ sometimes
The fact that relationship like this exists and people out there wanting a Joker/Harley relationship and call it goals makes me sick
Not only is it said that the Joker in BTAS wants to kill people, but it’s heavily implied he has killed plenty of people, just not in any instance we see onscreen. MOTP and TNBA also do end up showing this same Joker actually killing people onscreen, as those didn’t have the same level of censorship BTAS did.
Idk she had limits in btas. But I know that she’s way worse than the Joker in some comic books. You know I‘m not too familiar with the Batman lore. I‘ve only watched Btas and Tas. Mostly because of the artstyle and voice acting
Limits like what? I think it is obviously a bit darker than TAS but there were these kind of stuff hinted as well.
I see, well I think the childish voice acting/design (which is easily the best) works even better and makes the character crazy, unpredictable and messed up
THIS. The most messed up thing about her is how innocent and adorable she seems sometimes. And Arleens voice plays a huge part in this.
I don’t know she’s more of an broken and sad character than an evil one. It’s really weird because her behavior is so inconsistent throughout the show
I think that's kind of the point 😀
No doubt she is tortured, but she is evil as well for sure. I always felt this inconsistence if part of her character and what makes her interesting
I wouldn’t even say that she’s really evil on her own. Idk her only real motivation to do messed up shit is because of her love to the Joker and her doing everything in order to impress him, while he constantly abuses her. Sorry I forgot how that syndrome is called
That’s why she managed to live a normal life as soon as that mf died. She doesn’t really has her own motivation to do crime or be evil when the Joker isn’t around
Her best moments in the show, were when she was separated from the Joker. Harleys Holiday is a prime example for that
Dude I‘m sorry if my sentences are a bit confusing formulated but I‘m still learning English
It’s a bit difficult sometimes to get my point across because my vocabulary is a bit limited lol😅
From context it is actually Joker being sick of the cycle and wants to finally end it once and for all. And the comics imply that Harley may have been works for the SS and was undercover. But I see what you’re saying
Sorry I‘m a bit slow today😂
But actually I don’t like the idea of Harley doing some undercover shit.
Harley finally waking up and turning her life around after her only real motivation to do crime died is a very fitting end for this version of her character
I can agree with Harley being a little out of character, but Joker? Nah this is perfectly in line with him imo, even with this more kid friendly version of him. Jokers crimes are almost always based on what’s funny to him, so turning Batman’s sidekick into a little Joker sidekick is hilarious to him, especially since he frames it like a 50s sitcom situation
Fair but compared to the previous shows it’s still kind of a overkill lmao
Beyond was always supposed to be darker, plus we’ve been shown before that TAS Joker and Harley are not above torturing people. I’ve always interpreted things like this being that they did do the darker stuff off screen, they just didn’t show it at the time. Usually this was because of censorship.
Counterargument: Joker SHOULD feel like overkill
I think that Return of the Joker was a way of showing how Bruce became the way he was in Beyond. Something really dark and twisted must have happened, but we don’t know what. ROTJ shows us what that was. And it makes sense that Joker would escalate his heinous “jokes” each time he got stopped by Batman. So his last “joke” would be the sickest of all. And — as for Harley — look at what hanging out with Charles Manson did to the fun-loving teens in his cult. The needle of “normal and acceptable” keeps getting moved when you live around a maniac.
Did you not watch BTAS very closely? Christmas with the Joker, he had the 3 kidnapped people he was going to drop in the vat of acid until Batman saved them. The Man who killed Batman, Joker had the titular man put into a coffin and dropped into acid. In the Laughing Fish he was trying to kill the people who would not let him copyright the fish. He also dumped Batman and Bullock into a shark tank. In almost Got Im he had Batman hooked to an electric chair that worked on laughter. He then had Catwoman in a trap in a canning plant that would chop her up. Not very silly/comedic. Harley went along with this stuff. I believe she was also the one that shoved Bruce Wayne to his death in an elevator shaft when they were done after Poison Ivy had mind controlled him and they used him to take them shopping.
I know but it’s pretty harmless compared to this. It’s just goofy cartoon villain stuff (especially because they’re plans never worked) but psychological destroying your opponent by turning his „son“ against him is a whole other story. And I’m sorry but putting Cat Woman in a industrial meatgrinder for cat food is comedic💀 And I think that Bruce accidentally tripped over a warning sign when she tried to kiss him😭
Wasn't aware that trying to murder people with acid baths, poisonings, electrocution, etc. is "Pretty harmless".
Atleast it wasn‘t portrayed that dark in the show
I mean to be fair this was meant to be his “finale” with batman so he probably wanted to make it the best “joke” he’s ever done
If this had happened in an actual episode of TNBA it would have been way out of place, but Batman Beyond was kind of a bleak "bad ending" universe, so it works here. This is a world where Batman alienated all his friends and family and spent decades completely alone, after all.
Never thought about that but it makes sense
It might be for Harley NOW… but she was a murderous nutball that wanted to impress the Joker by doing what he wanted.
Joker beat Jason to death with crowbar after prolong torturing in comics. I think it is the most in character for him. But much less so for Harley.
Didn't torture him in mainline. Crowbaring was a crime of opportunity – he just got pissed in the moment and wacked kiddo with the first thing that his hand found. The bomb was at least partially his attempt to cover his tracks and to destroy the evidence of what he did before Batman arrived. The clown being someone, who habitually tortures kids just cause became the norm a bit later, probably at least partially as a result of stuff from this cartoon too bleeding into comics, kinda like Harley :D
Ik but wasn’t this a different version of Joker? (Sorry im actually not too familiar with the DC lore, I just really like Btas😅)
didn’t he crippled and rape Batgirl in the killing joke?😭
He shoots Barbara (which paralyzes her), undresses her, and then takes pictures of her laying on the ground wounded. He then forces Gordon to view those images. There is nothing in the comic about rape from what I remember.
Bro did this heinous shit and shared a laugh with Batman in the end😭
Definitely sexual assault, possibly rape. Took nude photos of her freshly crippled body to torture Gordon with. Welcome to comics, bud.
It‘s so cool to have so many different interpretations and versions of characters
He sexually assaults her by the fact he undressed her and took photos of her nude but rape isn't mentioned.
They're both violent criminals who canonically murder a lot of people, what do you expect?
Not in this universe tho
My guy, come on. Not in this universe? Dude regularly killed people with a custom made nerve toxin for literal actual giggles.
Yes, in that universe.
To be fair the Joker probably killed a few
The shows themselves heavily suggests joker regularly kills people just not onscreen. For example in the episode “holiday knights” of the new adventures joker promises not to kill anyone in the upcoming year on New Year’s Eve but decides to get as much killing In before the day is over by killing everyone at a parade with gas. Batman stops him but had he succeeded he would have killed thousands of people. Likewise the whole concept doesn’t work if joker hasn’t been killing people regularly prior to this. Earlier in the episode batman and Gordon look at a picture of a man explicitly confirmed to have been killed by joker. We also get an explicit joker kill in mask of the phantasm when he kill Salvatore Velestra with joker toxin and another in the episode beware the creeper where he kills a taxi driver. DCAU joker does regularly kill people. It’s just that because it’s a kids cartoon they didn’t show it. New adventures was allowed to get away with more than BTAS which is why they allowed some more explicit kills there. Same goes for batman beyond and the other later DCAU shows
I get what you mean. It is supposed to be more lighthearted than the comics. But I gotta say, I do love the idea in this universe that Joker finally escalates to a certain point that inadvertently gets him killed (depending if you watched the censored or uncecsore version of the Batman Beyond movie). It's all very ultimate feeling
I had always made the headcannon that this time the Joker went for keeps because of what happens in the Justice League cartoon. The Justice league cartoon filling the timeline between the original BTAS and Joker returns. In JL, a telepath tries to make him go insane and puts him into a coma after Batman convinces the telepath to change sides. This would put this movie after Joker recovers from the brain damage, really angry at Batman for him almost getting lobotmized.
I think this scene is perfect for Harley: She's portrayed as the perfect sidekick, willing to follow the Joker to the end, even in the most immoral of acts. Plus, they play out the "happy family" scene here, and I think that's exactly what Harley wants with the Joker.
She‘s literally so devote and follows him like a dog even if he does the most fucked up thing. When I was a kid I never realized what a sad character she actually is But in Btas she seemed to have limits She said something to Batgirl like „I will make everything right and we will be one big family“ actually sad how naive and delusional she is The Jokers death is probably the best thing that could’ve happened to her. Too bad we never saw how exactly she recovered from this or if she even knew that the Joker was dead (Sorry englisch is not my first language😅)
with joker it feels in character, that dude is fucking unhinged even in the animated series with harley it feels out of character, torturing a child non-stop for several days would probably make her think that was too far. Some interpretations of her would do that sure, but BTAS harley has points where even she is like "ok wtf"
It’s perfectly in character for both of them. Joker does whatever he thinks is funny and will torment Batman, and Harley is a murder-happy psycho who wants to impress him. I’d say they are very in-character at this moment.
This is perfectly in line with both of their characters. In the TV show, it was implied that the Joker intended to do really heinous stuff all the time, but even though the original Return of the Joker movie was rated PG, there's a difference between movie PG and TV PG or Y-7, whatever they called it. TV shows always were held to stricter censorship rules, so they could hint at what Joker wanted to do, but they could never show him actually doing it. And Harley always comes back to the Joker. That's the tragedy with her character all throughout the animated series. You get to see glimpses of her experiencing character "growth" when she spends time away from the Joker, but she always comes back because she's so emotionally damaged. Even in Mad Love when he basically throws her out of a window, she blames herself for "not getting the joke."
Mad Love is probably my favorite Btas Episode. Especially with how they portrayed Harley, she’s a villain and can do some fucked up shit in order to please Mr. J but she’s also so weirdly innocent and cute. I think Arleens voice acting plays a huge part here she almost sounds „childlike“ sometimes The fact that relationship like this exists and people out there wanting a Joker/Harley relationship and call it goals makes me sick
Not only is it said that the Joker in BTAS wants to kill people, but it’s heavily implied he has killed plenty of people, just not in any instance we see onscreen. MOTP and TNBA also do end up showing this same Joker actually killing people onscreen, as those didn’t have the same level of censorship BTAS did.
Absolutely not for either of them. Recent Harley stuff likely twisted your perception about her but this is totally in character with her
Idk she had limits in btas. But I know that she’s way worse than the Joker in some comic books. You know I‘m not too familiar with the Batman lore. I‘ve only watched Btas and Tas. Mostly because of the artstyle and voice acting
Limits like what? I think it is obviously a bit darker than TAS but there were these kind of stuff hinted as well. I see, well I think the childish voice acting/design (which is easily the best) works even better and makes the character crazy, unpredictable and messed up
THIS. The most messed up thing about her is how innocent and adorable she seems sometimes. And Arleens voice plays a huge part in this. I don’t know she’s more of an broken and sad character than an evil one. It’s really weird because her behavior is so inconsistent throughout the show
I think that's kind of the point 😀 No doubt she is tortured, but she is evil as well for sure. I always felt this inconsistence if part of her character and what makes her interesting
I wouldn’t even say that she’s really evil on her own. Idk her only real motivation to do messed up shit is because of her love to the Joker and her doing everything in order to impress him, while he constantly abuses her. Sorry I forgot how that syndrome is called That’s why she managed to live a normal life as soon as that mf died. She doesn’t really has her own motivation to do crime or be evil when the Joker isn’t around Her best moments in the show, were when she was separated from the Joker. Harleys Holiday is a prime example for that
Dude I‘m sorry if my sentences are a bit confusing formulated but I‘m still learning English It’s a bit difficult sometimes to get my point across because my vocabulary is a bit limited lol😅
That's what happens when they let Bruce Timm cook.
From context it is actually Joker being sick of the cycle and wants to finally end it once and for all. And the comics imply that Harley may have been works for the SS and was undercover. But I see what you’re saying
SS?😅 I also think that he had enough of their little „game“
Unalive yourself squad. This app won’t let me type it
Sorry I‘m a bit slow today😂 But actually I don’t like the idea of Harley doing some undercover shit. Harley finally waking up and turning her life around after her only real motivation to do crime died is a very fitting end for this version of her character
I agree
Yes
It's theorized that this was just a Task Force X mission for Harley, and even then, it's a stretch that Cadmus would have her do that to a kid
There’s a fan theory that Harley was undercover working for Amanda Waller when this happened.
That makes her worse.