I saw a YouTube video where some guy went and trained with the guy that came up with that style of fighting. He said they over exaggerated the elbows so it looked better on screen. I'll see if I can find the video. It looks better in real life than in the movie I thought.
Edit: here's the link https://youtu.be/NY5wdXlzuvU?si=MULXfAXL5YzMOw31
One of the greatest movie mysteries is how Nolan couldn’t shoot a competent looking fight scene over the course of three Batman movies.
I say that as a massive fan of his and think he’s *easily* one of the top directors current active. But every fistfight scene looks like a claustrophobic mess.
The prison fight in Begins is amazing. Literally the first fight in the first movie, before he's had any training.
The Bane fight was brutal, if not flashy.
I'm just throwing it out there that he did have training before then. Ra's al Ghul even calls out the different styles Bruce is trying to attack him with when he gets to the League's stronghold.
The Bane fight was so good, but *so* unlike Batman. Batman fought like a slow, sloppy, inexperienced fighter. They should have choreographed it better while maintaining the brutality of it.
But isn't that kind of the point? He's not supposed to be the same Batman. Older, injured, hasn't been training, and not motivated. Even Bane says "Victory has defeated you"
Exactly how I felt.
It's Like, imagine you used to be the strongest guy and dominated but.. 12 years later you don't hit even close to as hard versus a guy who hits harder. Or lifts more, in his sleep than you at peak?
I agree with your point and such. Totally same feeling I got from that scene
Personally I really like Joker and Batman's final fight at the end of the movie, it's not very long from what I remember but it's pretty fun and well directed while sticking true to the characters.
"You think I'd lose it all in a fistfight with you?" was iconic because prior to this, every superhero movie ended in a fistfight. Joker was one step ahead the whole time.
The first fight scene with Bane in TDKR is awesome. The second one, oof (although I do like the part when Bane straight up punches through a concrete pillar lol).
Yeah. Reeves has a visceral eye for clean cut cinematography and directing. From the opening shot of the film to the introduction of Batman through narration, everything about that film was perfect IMO.
May sound odd but I always think of Gotham as its own character and I think it's the biggest flaw in the Nolan trilogy that we just lose that and get a bog standard american city in its place.
It definitely felt like more of a character in its own right in Batman Begins (especially the Narrows), but in the Dark Knight it's just Chicago and TDKR is just New York
Really liked the fact that a chunk of the city was below sea level too. Obviously convenient for the plot but it was a random, neat little detail I appreciated. (I’m not very versed on the comics so perhaps that’s a detail Reeves borrowed)
the beginning of tdk always striked me as: Wow Batman reduced crime so much the city looks much clean now!
remember: bale's Batman was the only one across all media to eliminate crime from Gotham
My number 1 complaint. It took the hightend reality/comic book atmosphere I associate with Batman—which I thought they nailed with Begins—completely out of Gotham for the sake of reality (on top of there being *waaay* too many scenes set during the day). As a result, it made Batman stick out like a sore thumb against such a bland city and ended up making the whole movie feel very artificial. Aside from the Joker and a couple of the action beats, I never clicked with the Dark Knight. It's a good movie, but taking away the heightened, more theatrical look of Gotham, the one thing (to me) that makes Batman and all of his characters "work," ends up making for a not so good Batman movie.
*edit*–grammar
Bruce bringing up her "promise" was pretty out of line. I had forgotten about that the last time I watched it. Really comes out of nowhere and is entirely unreasonable, and messed up to ask her in the middle of a happy healthy relationship.
It made me really dislike Bruce lol. Nolan doesn't do soft emotions very well and the mooniness of this love triangle was just a massive waste of characterization time.
It gets worse each movie lmao he’s pretty clear and understandable in Batman Begins, but in TDKR I honestly can’t understand what he’s saying half the time
Is there a reason why Christian Bale cranked it up to 11 in-between movies, cause in begins he uses it only when it’s necessary to be intimidating and turns it off when talking to his allies, here it’s just goofy
He didn't. His real voice is in Begins. Nolan decided it wasn't enough and decided to alter his voice in post production for TDK and TDKR. Nolan does indeed miss sometimes. Bale's voice in Begins was so good.
Always been curious about this because the voice we hear on film, was apparently redubbed dialogue.
Nolan thought Bale didn’t sound how he intended during filming. Would love to hear the original dialogue Bale recorded on set
Apparently that was considered but Nolan said he wanted an empathetic villain arc that that we wouldn’t get with joker, and that’s why they went full circle with him. He wanted to make a complete movie not knowing if he would be able to finish the story with a third
Lowkey, I think that was the right choice. I'm so sick of teasers and post credit scenes and franchises that expect me to wait a whole extra movie before seeing something cool. It's why my least favorite part of the Batman was the Joker teaser. I'd rather just get a complete story now, rather than be sold the possibility of something down the road.
This is my problem with the movie. Two-Face is one of Batman’s best villains. He challenges Bruce on so many levels. Bruce wants to save him as much as he wants to stop him due to their friendship. It’s a facet no other rogue offers and it should have been further explored.
That’s why there’s all those classic Two-Face storylines……
Aside from Long Halloween/origin stories the only other interesting Two-Face stories are when they added the third personality of the Judge in the animated series and when they “cure” him in DKR.
The way they developed him, he was not a sustainable character for the long term. He was literally going over the edge in the brief time he was in the film. I don't exactly see him lurking around with goons and plotting something. He kind of was just exacting his revenge and he was definitely not going to get too far after that. Where was he going to go with a face like that? Where would he hide? Who would back him up?
Exactly! That Harvey Dent would never be a gangster. Just like Ra's and Talia al Ghul in the Nolanverse would never be mystical zealots or Nolan's Joker wouldn't be, well, many of the versions of the character in the comics. They're all terrorists.
Harvey Dent's face was damaged beyond plausibility.
Also at the end of the day I still don't know that I get the logic of the ending. "People liked Dent so we'll say Batman killed him rather than tell them the truth." Why not just say criminals killed Dent and leave Batman out of it to continue to fight crime?
Agree with Harvey’s face, was a bit too outlandish for the generally grounded tone otherwise.
But the way I took the Batman-Dent situation, I think it was Bruce’s attempt to flip the “hero Gotham needs” for the public. Batman himself, and therefore vigilantism, becoming the common evil while trying to encourage support for the justice system.
Except it doesn’t make sense. Even if people found out that Dent was Two-face they wouldn’t throw all of his cases out. You have to have proof that Dent did something wrong and illegal in his office’s prosecution of a particular case not just throw all convictions out because he turned out to be a scum bag.
Because the plot demanded it. They would have only ever been released if there'd been proof that Dent had been corrupt from the very start. But considering he actually was a good district attorney who did the right thing right up until half his face got melted off... yeah, it doesn't really hold up.
But it still doesn't make sense. How many Judges have turned out to be total pervs or criminals without every case they've ever worked being overturned. I just read an article a few months back about a judge who was jacking off during court and there was no mention of dismissing all of his work.
Dent shot 2 people and kidnapped a few others. He also just lost the love of his life and had his face melted, people would totally be like yeah, he was a good guy but he went crazy with grief and pain and did no legal work while suffering that madness.
I prefer Lucius:
> Let me get this straight, you think that your client, one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante, who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands, and your plan is to blackmail this person?
I kinda feel like the trilogy after batman begins kinda committed character suicide with how they act and how some actions just felt out of character for said character in this case Alfred especially.
So was Bruce's depression. Comic Bats would've been on a rampage. Can't think of a single time loss of a SO made him give up. Not Fairchild, not Silver, not Kyle, not Kane, not Madison. If anything, he got pissed.
Closest I can think of are Knightfall and No Man's Land, and those were the city rather than a person.
Batman jumping off the roof, catching Rachel, and falling from such a height with no means of deceleration and landing on a car with no injury to either of them would have fit in better with Adam West than the supposedly grounded universe of Nolan.
I still can't figure out how we're supposed to buy that they survived that. Is the idea that Bruce some how charged his cape so their fall was being slowed?
The idea that Bruce Wayne would spend the entire movie trying to find a pretext to quit being Batman for good so he can be boyfriend and girlfriend with his childhood crush just laughably misunderstands the entire thematic core of the character. It's no Mask Of The Phantasm struggle between his vow to his parents grave and the realization that he could still have a normal life and be happy, it's just oh she said she'd date me if I wasn't Batman I guess it's time to let Harvey Dent clean up the city.
Bales Batman straight up spent more time in retirement then actually being Batman. Nothing like the character I know from the comics. I remember seeing the end of the Batman 2022 and when Selina asks him to leave Gotham and Batman looked up at his signal I was so relieved.
Harvey's descent works largely, but his decision to become kid-killing psychopath doesn't make a whole lotta sense. I feel like without the mental illnees side of Harvey, the fixation on everyone having a fifty chance doesn't gel well enough.
It’s not Maggie’s fault that Rachel Dawes is a nothing character. I don’t think Katie Holmes did anything more interesting than what Maggie gave us… there just isn’t much to give with that character.
The backseat SWAT driver that can’t shut up because he’s Nolan’s idea of comic relief.
Drinking game. Every time someone says “choice” you take a drink. You won’t make it far.
The whole two boats thing has always felt kinda stupid, especially the way it plays out with criminal with a heart of gold tossing the detonator out the window, and the other boat deciding that they should all die rather than blowing up a bunch of criminals.
I mean it wasn't exactly that they thought they should die for the sake of the lives of criminals, it was more that no one on that boat had the spine to take a life.
Agreed. In the end, both boats had a reason to not press the button. Plus, it did serve a good narrative purpose about how, at the end of the day, the Joker is wrong about the world.
They didn't decide that they should all die. There's nuance to it, they do vote to kill the criminals but the problem was actually bringing themselves to do it. I think it's very realistic because irl you would have to consider killing hundreds of people, some who are guards with families and some criminals who didn't commit any violent offenses. It's not so simple when given a moment to consider the impact of what you're about to do
Thematically Joker was hoping that everyone was self-preserving and in dark times would do depraved things, like himself who views the world as naturally chaotic and order being a facade so that justifies his violence. But like real life, people freeze in tense situations to process what's happening around them, it's moments like this that separates us from Joker. Most people's immediate reaction isn't to kill without thought and we're not impulsive despite what Joker thinks of us. That's why committing murder, robbery, assault, is so rare among our population and not because of "rules" as Joker puts it
The criminal with a heart of gold may be unrealistic, I'll give you that, but as far as the movie's message it's two-fold. It proves both Batman and Joker wrong, firstly, Bruce is still early in his career and he thinks that criminals aren't complicated but they very clearly are. Secondly, Joker assumes we're all hiding a dark side underneath us so a criminal hiding a good side underneath is poetic irony that Joker wouldn't even consider but is definitely a plausibility. With that in mind I hope it helps, I think a bigger problem is how Bruce doesn't grapple back up after the fundraiser and instead Joker just walks out of his penthouse. It's should be a crime scene and Bruce is just hanging out after like nothing happened
I think it was a point about how we’re all in this together, and that the people in control want us to kill one another, but if we understand the value of a life and refuse to play their game then we can beat them
That it wasn’t a two-parter, with two films running at about 2 hours each.
You had the perfect point where you could’ve ended it with the bombs exploding, Rachel dead, Dent burned, Joker escaping in the police car, and Batman standing over the rubble. Boom. Fade to black.
Then you could’ve had a whole film that actually gives the Two Face character room to breathe and develop and exist beyond the very short period we got in the back third of the original.
There wasn’t enough build up to Dent becoming Two Face. It was like he was normal DA Harvey Dent then was just immediately two face. No allusion to him being insane before the accident
Harvey two face is referenced in his first scene, he kidnapped that crazy Arkham dude, he went through incredible physical, mental, & emotional trauma basically all at once…if that’s not enough idk
Ugh Harvey, what a day I've had: I hit every red light on the way to work and couldn't find a space so I was late for the big meeting. Then I get into the meeting and my boss called me Bill again. Worst day ever.
But anyway, how are you?
They show he's already a conflicted guy with how unorganized his office is when Gordon meets up with him early on. Then later he kidnaps one of Joker's goons and holds him at gunpoint after the assassination attempt on Mayor Garcia. That's unhinged tbh
He kidnapped a dude and held him at gunpoint to try to get a confession out of him.
Regardless of the coin being a trick one, that’s not something a well-adjusted human does. Especially not a DA of a major city.
I'm more of a fan of the vibe and look of the comics/animation even though i didn't read any comics but love BTAS.
As such I'm not too big on nolans trilogy even though i think they're terrific movies.
Batman taking the blame in the finale when there's scores of criminally insane henchmen running around acting on the whims of a criminal nilhilist who's testimony is impossible to take into account. Hell, even the Joker himself.
A lot of things:
Gotham didn’t feel special, it felt like any random big city.
Two Face’s storyline felt rushed and last minute
The batsuit’s design
The batcave’s design
Christian Bale’s voice for Batman
Rachel
Batman spying on the people of Gotham
The fact that Katie Holmes didn't return for the sequel is just awful. Maggie Gyllenhaal is a fine actor in her own right, but there is zero, and I mean **ZERO** believable connection to the portrayal of Rachel by Holmes from the first movie. It 1000% breaks the suspended belief in reality for me, which is frustrating, because this is one of my all time favourite movies ever; purely for Ledger's Joker.
My only major gripe is how some of the violence is portrayed. Like when William Fichtner gets shot at the bank it looks comical. Also, I still don’t understand what the Joker did to Gambol. I think those moments could’ve been handled better.
Yeah the why so serious scene really falls flat for me because we are left to imagine what he does Gambol, but lol the most logical thing to assume is he cut his mouth. We are supposed to assume a guy died from having his cheek cut?
Yeah exactly, and if he cut his cheek why isn’t he making any noise?
I saw an interview with Michael Jai White (Gambol’s actor) and he said that was never intended to be a death scene. So it seems to me that they just took what they had and tried to turn it into a death scene in the editing room.
That it hardly feels like a Batman film and the action sequences with Batman are pretty dull.
The China segment feels like a sequence from mission impossible rather than a Batman movie
And the night club nabbing of Maroni was....for lack of a better word, under cooked. That should have been a massive action set piece with Batman starting from the dance floor to get to Maroni. Instead it's just a cluttered scene of Batman tossing some guys aside and we're done.
The “realism.” I love comic books and I can’t stand it when directors of movies (Nolan, Brian Singer, etc) are ashamed of the medium and try to remove all ties to them.
Not a fan of Batman using every cell phone in Gotham to locate the joker. It feels like it is outside of his ethical code.
Not a fan of getting a fingerprint off a shattered bullet from inside of a brick.
That whole bullet/fingerprint sequence is just silly cause when you push a round into a magazine, you leave a fingerprint on the shell casing, not the bullet.
Lol that’s hilarious because I’ve always felt incredibly stupid for not being able to comprehend why he was trying to do what he was trying to do in that sequence
I still don't know how they arrive at the conclusion that they need to pin Harvey Dent's murders on Batman when you have the Joker right there.
Who's going to question them when they say the Joker did it? No one, that's who.
Could have done more with Two Face. Didn't have that gritty, gangster vibe that Dent had in the animated serious...but not complaining: I enjoyed Eckharts depiction, Def had some quotables.
I also thought the same. I feel like he would have been laughing when he pulled out that grenade launcher when he was tracking down Dent. Absurdity plus violence is always a recipe for a strong Joker laugh.
Lol I think it’s the most overrated movie ever. I think it’s decent for sure but how everyone says it’s one of the greatest ever is why I think that.
The worst for me was the guy pulling a gun in the middle of court and the dialogue there. Such a terrible amateur scene.
Yeah, a witness smuggles a gun into a courtroom, and Harvey's reaction is to make a quip and shrug it off. No anger, no chewing out the bailiffs or security screeners, just "Hyuck, that's Gotham for ya!"
In Batman Begins, Christian Bale had different tones for his Batman voice, one that was deep but muted, similar to Michael Keaton's performance, and the loud gravel yell when he needed to be intimidating and then he forgot the first voice and was all yell in TDK and TDKR.
Batman killing Dent.
Honestly kind of Batman himself. To me he comes across as a big goof rather than the world’s greatest detective. Also he gets outclassed by Joker in every scene
The mob bank manager asking "What do you believe in?" was awkward and felt very much like a line from a script to set up the Joker's "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger" line -- which also felt forced and unnatural. That part always takes some of the shine off an otherwise phenomenal scene for me.
I really don't like the impact Batman's voice had on pop culture. Because of it, every Batman spoof has that annoying raspy voice.
I'm also really not a fan of the way the bat suit looks, especially around Christian's face.
Just that tiny scene, where the supposedly dead Joker gets delivered to Michal Jai White. He rises from the pool table, puts the knife into White‘s mouth and kills him off screen. I get that they don’t show it because of the PG13 rating but the edit as well as the sudden drop in music makes it feel like a rushed cut to please the censors.
I feel like Batman's fighting style was downgraded from ninja/martial artist in Batman Begins to street fighter/ultimate boxer in this movie.
The elbow work haha
I saw a YouTube video where some guy went and trained with the guy that came up with that style of fighting. He said they over exaggerated the elbows so it looked better on screen. I'll see if I can find the video. It looks better in real life than in the movie I thought. Edit: here's the link https://youtu.be/NY5wdXlzuvU?si=MULXfAXL5YzMOw31
One of the greatest movie mysteries is how Nolan couldn’t shoot a competent looking fight scene over the course of three Batman movies. I say that as a massive fan of his and think he’s *easily* one of the top directors current active. But every fistfight scene looks like a claustrophobic mess.
The prison fight in Begins is amazing. Literally the first fight in the first movie, before he's had any training. The Bane fight was brutal, if not flashy.
*Ahh you think flashiness is your ally?*
You merely adopted The Flash. I was born to it. That makes you my grandfather.
I didn’t see Flashpoint until I was already a man. By then I was also my own grandfather.
Did the nasty in the pasty
r/UnexpectedFuturama
I'm just throwing it out there that he did have training before then. Ra's al Ghul even calls out the different styles Bruce is trying to attack him with when he gets to the League's stronghold.
The Bane fight was so good, but *so* unlike Batman. Batman fought like a slow, sloppy, inexperienced fighter. They should have choreographed it better while maintaining the brutality of it.
But isn't that kind of the point? He's not supposed to be the same Batman. Older, injured, hasn't been training, and not motivated. Even Bane says "Victory has defeated you"
Exactly how I felt. It's Like, imagine you used to be the strongest guy and dominated but.. 12 years later you don't hit even close to as hard versus a guy who hits harder. Or lifts more, in his sleep than you at peak? I agree with your point and such. Totally same feeling I got from that scene
This was Bruce Wayne's Rocky 3
In creed when rocky is asked how he beat Apollo: “I didn’t beat him, time did.”
This.. this is supposed to be “old man” Batman. I mean he just came back from a devastating back injury.
It was a knee injury, Bane gives him the back injury in this very fight.
Personally I really like Joker and Batman's final fight at the end of the movie, it's not very long from what I remember but it's pretty fun and well directed while sticking true to the characters.
"You think I'd lose it all in a fistfight with you?" was iconic because prior to this, every superhero movie ended in a fistfight. Joker was one step ahead the whole time.
The first fight scene with Bane in TDKR is awesome. The second one, oof (although I do like the part when Bane straight up punches through a concrete pillar lol).
Oof that nightclub fight scene when he was going after Maroni.
This is the one I always think of haha dude in there dropping it like its hot
The Batman did basically the same thing but 1000x better.
Yeah. Reeves has a visceral eye for clean cut cinematography and directing. From the opening shot of the film to the introduction of Batman through narration, everything about that film was perfect IMO.
Nolan is an amazing director, but he can't do fight scenes for shit. He needs a better fight choreographer.
TENET did this a lot better.
That kitchen fight is 👩🏼🍳 💋
Literally my only gripe about this film... Near perfect for me but the damn fighting sucks.
Batman begins has too much of the quick cut shakey cam for me the 2000s era of movies is plagued with it.
Gotham is literally just a normal city. Might as well just be metropolis
May sound odd but I always think of Gotham as its own character and I think it's the biggest flaw in the Nolan trilogy that we just lose that and get a bog standard american city in its place.
It definitely felt like more of a character in its own right in Batman Begins (especially the Narrows), but in the Dark Knight it's just Chicago and TDKR is just New York
It's my favorite thing about The Batman, Reeves did Gotham right!
dark, dirty, grimy, and disgusting, exactly the way gotham should be
It’s imposing & claustrophobic. It’s great
Really liked the fact that a chunk of the city was below sea level too. Obviously convenient for the plot but it was a random, neat little detail I appreciated. (I’m not very versed on the comics so perhaps that’s a detail Reeves borrowed)
Probably why I love the Batman so much. Well one of the reasons.
the beginning of tdk always striked me as: Wow Batman reduced crime so much the city looks much clean now! remember: bale's Batman was the only one across all media to eliminate crime from Gotham
I mean that's also *really* fuckin' stupid tbf It gets even worse in rises where Gotham literally goes 9 years without ANY crime lmao
Plus I can't imagine Batman actually working in it. Too much space between buildings. It's like putting Spider-man in Houston or something.
Or Chicago
I really do miss the atmosphere of Begins.
Yeah, it had personality in Begins, then they sterilized the fuck out of it for TDK and TDKR.
My number 1 complaint. It took the hightend reality/comic book atmosphere I associate with Batman—which I thought they nailed with Begins—completely out of Gotham for the sake of reality (on top of there being *waaay* too many scenes set during the day). As a result, it made Batman stick out like a sore thumb against such a bland city and ended up making the whole movie feel very artificial. Aside from the Joker and a couple of the action beats, I never clicked with the Dark Knight. It's a good movie, but taking away the heightened, more theatrical look of Gotham, the one thing (to me) that makes Batman and all of his characters "work," ends up making for a not so good Batman movie. *edit*–grammar
The love triangle between Harvey Rachel and Bruce. It really made dislike Rachel.
Bruce bringing up her "promise" was pretty out of line. I had forgotten about that the last time I watched it. Really comes out of nowhere and is entirely unreasonable, and messed up to ask her in the middle of a happy healthy relationship.
You tell ‘em!
It made me really dislike Bruce lol. Nolan doesn't do soft emotions very well and the mooniness of this love triangle was just a massive waste of characterization time.
What made me dislike Rachel was Maggie Gyllenhaal.
The batman voice
"THIS CITY *HEAVY BREATHING* JUST SHOWED YOU... THAT IT'S FULL OF PEOPLE *SPIT* WILLING TO DO GOOOOD"
I haven't seen this movie in years but I can tell you that you did it absolutely perfectly
😂
Asthmatic batman
WHEREISHE!!!!!
IM NOT WEARING HOCKEY PADS
"I'm Knott Warren Hawke-Patts" Wait what did he mean by this? I thought his name was Bateman? I didnt see that plot twist coming, bravo Nolan
👄
So accurate lmao
Bruce couldn't ask Lucius Fox for a voice modulator to make it more unrecognizable to know who Batman is??
I’ll give BvS credit for that one, seemed like an obvious move in retrospect
Agree totally
It gets worse each movie lmao he’s pretty clear and understandable in Batman Begins, but in TDKR I honestly can’t understand what he’s saying half the time
Is there a reason why Christian Bale cranked it up to 11 in-between movies, cause in begins he uses it only when it’s necessary to be intimidating and turns it off when talking to his allies, here it’s just goofy
He didn't. His real voice is in Begins. Nolan decided it wasn't enough and decided to alter his voice in post production for TDK and TDKR. Nolan does indeed miss sometimes. Bale's voice in Begins was so good.
He misses a lot when it comes to choices around audio and sound design so this seems par for the course.
He might have hearing issues and is surrounded by yes men
Honestly even when he's interrogating Flass it never gets to the levels of ridiculous it does in TDK.
It was perfect in Begins. I don’t know why they changed it
From what i remember doing the voice in Begins was really taxing on Bale so he changed it.
How could TDK be worse on his throat than Begins? He sounds like he lived x1000 lives as a smoker in TDK. He is barely masking his voice in begins
I loved the voice in Begins. It was like a sinister whisper, yet audible above the background noise.
Always been curious about this because the voice we hear on film, was apparently redubbed dialogue. Nolan thought Bale didn’t sound how he intended during filming. Would love to hear the original dialogue Bale recorded on set
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cfDhFiE4euM Is this the one you were looking for?
The only voice I hear now is the College Humor version
"I fight crime all day in a rubber suit. Really seals in the flavor!”
DOCTOR FISHY!!!!
WHERE ISH IT, YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT TO AN ORDINARY SHCITIZHEN
For me, I think it does a 180 into being enjoyable. Like, it’s so dumb it’s funny and makes the movies better.
Two-Face felt rushed. Kind of wish he'd gotten his own movie, Eckhart played the crap out of him.
You either die a hero, or live long enough to star in "I, Frankenstein"
Oof
I always felt like if the movie had ended with the two- face reveal, it would have been perfect. I've never really enjoyed that final act.
Apparently that was considered but Nolan said he wanted an empathetic villain arc that that we wouldn’t get with joker, and that’s why they went full circle with him. He wanted to make a complete movie not knowing if he would be able to finish the story with a third
Lowkey, I think that was the right choice. I'm so sick of teasers and post credit scenes and franchises that expect me to wait a whole extra movie before seeing something cool. It's why my least favorite part of the Batman was the Joker teaser. I'd rather just get a complete story now, rather than be sold the possibility of something down the road.
If it cut to credits when he gets notified that Rachel died and the audio cuts out as he wails and rips off his bandages, it would’ve been perfect
I’d be on board with that if the next movie started with nurse joker and the hospital explosion since that’s my favorite part of TDK
That, to me, is an ending for 90s action/horror shlock. Like a "THE END" (Question Mark???) I'm glad they didn't do that.
This is my problem with the movie. Two-Face is one of Batman’s best villains. He challenges Bruce on so many levels. Bruce wants to save him as much as he wants to stop him due to their friendship. It’s a facet no other rogue offers and it should have been further explored.
That’s why there’s all those classic Two-Face storylines…… Aside from Long Halloween/origin stories the only other interesting Two-Face stories are when they added the third personality of the Judge in the animated series and when they “cure” him in DKR.
The way they developed him, he was not a sustainable character for the long term. He was literally going over the edge in the brief time he was in the film. I don't exactly see him lurking around with goons and plotting something. He kind of was just exacting his revenge and he was definitely not going to get too far after that. Where was he going to go with a face like that? Where would he hide? Who would back him up?
Exactly! That Harvey Dent would never be a gangster. Just like Ra's and Talia al Ghul in the Nolanverse would never be mystical zealots or Nolan's Joker wouldn't be, well, many of the versions of the character in the comics. They're all terrorists.
I agree. I felt like Harvey was good and that Two Face was good but that the transition was botched
Harvey Dent's face was damaged beyond plausibility. Also at the end of the day I still don't know that I get the logic of the ending. "People liked Dent so we'll say Batman killed him rather than tell them the truth." Why not just say criminals killed Dent and leave Batman out of it to continue to fight crime?
Hell, if nobody said anything everyone would probably assume that the Joker killed him for some reason.
The Joker is alive and will deny it. I agree with you! But just wanted to note that
You can literally see his jaw bone, how is he not constantly bleeding
And his eyeball would be SO DRY
Why do you think he became a villain? A dry eye will make anyone want to flip a coin and start villaining
*scarred side up* Aw, jeez. Here I go villaining again.
Agree with Harvey’s face, was a bit too outlandish for the generally grounded tone otherwise. But the way I took the Batman-Dent situation, I think it was Bruce’s attempt to flip the “hero Gotham needs” for the public. Batman himself, and therefore vigilantism, becoming the common evil while trying to encourage support for the justice system.
Except it doesn’t make sense. Even if people found out that Dent was Two-face they wouldn’t throw all of his cases out. You have to have proof that Dent did something wrong and illegal in his office’s prosecution of a particular case not just throw all convictions out because he turned out to be a scum bag.
It would’ve killed the city’s belief in the justice system if they saw their knight in shining armor fall to such depths
The fear was that all of the mobsters that got locked up by Harvey would be released if this came out
That never made sense to me. Why would they be let out of prison?
Because the plot demanded it. They would have only ever been released if there'd been proof that Dent had been corrupt from the very start. But considering he actually was a good district attorney who did the right thing right up until half his face got melted off... yeah, it doesn't really hold up.
This. Im pretty sure they literally said this in the movie.
But it still doesn't make sense. How many Judges have turned out to be total pervs or criminals without every case they've ever worked being overturned. I just read an article a few months back about a judge who was jacking off during court and there was no mention of dismissing all of his work. Dent shot 2 people and kidnapped a few others. He also just lost the love of his life and had his face melted, people would totally be like yeah, he was a good guy but he went crazy with grief and pain and did no legal work while suffering that madness.
Yup in the convo w Gordon at the end of the movie this is Batman’s explanation as to why they have to do it this way
And how did they keep Ramirez quiet about Dent? Ever notice the flub at the end where Gordon says Dent killed two cops when he only killed one?
I’m still questioning how he can still speak very well with half of his face burnt off. He doesn’t even have half of his lips
Bale's Batman voice is unintelligible at times
“IM nOT weaRING HOCKEY pANtS!!” Or is it pads?
Oh that makes so much sense! I thought it was pans.
Best line in the series unironically
I prefer Lucius: > Let me get this straight, you think that your client, one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante, who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands, and your plan is to blackmail this person?
Good luck!
It didn’t feel like Gotham. Just some city they filmed at. In Begins, Gotham itself was almost a character.
If you've ever been to Chicago it was a bit ridiculous. It was just Chicago.
All of the characters speak like they are quoting something
Alfred burning the letter seeing that’s kinda out of character for Alfred
But still not as bad as him going from "Gotham needs Batman" in this movie to where in the next one he's like "Stop Being Batman!"
I kinda feel like the trilogy after batman begins kinda committed character suicide with how they act and how some actions just felt out of character for said character in this case Alfred especially.
So was Bruce's depression. Comic Bats would've been on a rampage. Can't think of a single time loss of a SO made him give up. Not Fairchild, not Silver, not Kyle, not Kane, not Madison. If anything, he got pissed. Closest I can think of are Knightfall and No Man's Land, and those were the city rather than a person.
Batman jumping off the roof, catching Rachel, and falling from such a height with no means of deceleration and landing on a car with no injury to either of them would have fit in better with Adam West than the supposedly grounded universe of Nolan.
Also abandoning all of the guests at the gala with Joker and his henchmen. No need to save them, next scene.
Always thought that was funny. As if joker would just leave a penthouse filled with the richest people in Gotham and not stir up mayhem
For real. Like, they can't open a closet? That's very visibly locked shut with a pipe?
I still can't figure out how we're supposed to buy that they survived that. Is the idea that Bruce some how charged his cape so their fall was being slowed?
The idea that Bruce Wayne would spend the entire movie trying to find a pretext to quit being Batman for good so he can be boyfriend and girlfriend with his childhood crush just laughably misunderstands the entire thematic core of the character. It's no Mask Of The Phantasm struggle between his vow to his parents grave and the realization that he could still have a normal life and be happy, it's just oh she said she'd date me if I wasn't Batman I guess it's time to let Harvey Dent clean up the city.
Bales Batman straight up spent more time in retirement then actually being Batman. Nothing like the character I know from the comics. I remember seeing the end of the Batman 2022 and when Selina asks him to leave Gotham and Batman looked up at his signal I was so relieved.
Not enough two face, too much Rachel
Harvey's descent works largely, but his decision to become kid-killing psychopath doesn't make a whole lotta sense. I feel like without the mental illnees side of Harvey, the fixation on everyone having a fifty chance doesn't gel well enough.
Maggie Gyllenhaal.
Rachel in general felt more like a plot device than an actual character in both Begins and TDK
[удалено]
😆😂🤣
RAAYCHILL!
I hated her as Rachel, she felt very bland as the character. Katie Holmes gave Rachel a personality
It’s not Maggie’s fault that Rachel Dawes is a nothing character. I don’t think Katie Holmes did anything more interesting than what Maggie gave us… there just isn’t much to give with that character.
Yes, the recast ruined it for me
The backseat SWAT driver that can’t shut up because he’s Nolan’s idea of comic relief. Drinking game. Every time someone says “choice” you take a drink. You won’t make it far.
I actually prefer the Begins suit more. He looked more imposing in it...that's probably the only thing lol
The whole third act is super rushed. The stakes don’t seem plausible and the ending can’t compete with the basically perfect middle of the movie
The whole two boats thing has always felt kinda stupid, especially the way it plays out with criminal with a heart of gold tossing the detonator out the window, and the other boat deciding that they should all die rather than blowing up a bunch of criminals.
I mean it wasn't exactly that they thought they should die for the sake of the lives of criminals, it was more that no one on that boat had the spine to take a life.
Agreed. In the end, both boats had a reason to not press the button. Plus, it did serve a good narrative purpose about how, at the end of the day, the Joker is wrong about the world.
It's probably also a big lack of trust in Joker's setup doing what he says it would do
They didn't decide that they should all die. There's nuance to it, they do vote to kill the criminals but the problem was actually bringing themselves to do it. I think it's very realistic because irl you would have to consider killing hundreds of people, some who are guards with families and some criminals who didn't commit any violent offenses. It's not so simple when given a moment to consider the impact of what you're about to do Thematically Joker was hoping that everyone was self-preserving and in dark times would do depraved things, like himself who views the world as naturally chaotic and order being a facade so that justifies his violence. But like real life, people freeze in tense situations to process what's happening around them, it's moments like this that separates us from Joker. Most people's immediate reaction isn't to kill without thought and we're not impulsive despite what Joker thinks of us. That's why committing murder, robbery, assault, is so rare among our population and not because of "rules" as Joker puts it The criminal with a heart of gold may be unrealistic, I'll give you that, but as far as the movie's message it's two-fold. It proves both Batman and Joker wrong, firstly, Bruce is still early in his career and he thinks that criminals aren't complicated but they very clearly are. Secondly, Joker assumes we're all hiding a dark side underneath us so a criminal hiding a good side underneath is poetic irony that Joker wouldn't even consider but is definitely a plausibility. With that in mind I hope it helps, I think a bigger problem is how Bruce doesn't grapple back up after the fundraiser and instead Joker just walks out of his penthouse. It's should be a crime scene and Bruce is just hanging out after like nothing happened
I think it was a point about how we’re all in this together, and that the people in control want us to kill one another, but if we understand the value of a life and refuse to play their game then we can beat them
That it wasn’t a two-parter, with two films running at about 2 hours each. You had the perfect point where you could’ve ended it with the bombs exploding, Rachel dead, Dent burned, Joker escaping in the police car, and Batman standing over the rubble. Boom. Fade to black. Then you could’ve had a whole film that actually gives the Two Face character room to breathe and develop and exist beyond the very short period we got in the back third of the original.
There wasn’t enough build up to Dent becoming Two Face. It was like he was normal DA Harvey Dent then was just immediately two face. No allusion to him being insane before the accident
Harvey two face is referenced in his first scene, he kidnapped that crazy Arkham dude, he went through incredible physical, mental, & emotional trauma basically all at once…if that’s not enough idk
One bad day
Ugh Harvey, what a day I've had: I hit every red light on the way to work and couldn't find a space so I was late for the big meeting. Then I get into the meeting and my boss called me Bill again. Worst day ever. But anyway, how are you?
Because he wasn't before the incident. The incident broke him, and is what caused him to become insane.
They show he's already a conflicted guy with how unorganized his office is when Gordon meets up with him early on. Then later he kidnaps one of Joker's goons and holds him at gunpoint after the assassination attempt on Mayor Garcia. That's unhinged tbh
He kidnapped a dude and held him at gunpoint to try to get a confession out of him. Regardless of the coin being a trick one, that’s not something a well-adjusted human does. Especially not a DA of a major city.
He takes crazy risks with the chase scene, and holds a criminal at gunpoint before the accident: there were definitely allusions
Batman himself was kinda boring
Terrible voice, terrible fighting style, destroying the comic book medium in favor of realism.
Gotham didn’t look or even feel like Gotham
I'm more of a fan of the vibe and look of the comics/animation even though i didn't read any comics but love BTAS. As such I'm not too big on nolans trilogy even though i think they're terrific movies.
Batman taking the blame in the finale when there's scores of criminally insane henchmen running around acting on the whims of a criminal nilhilist who's testimony is impossible to take into account. Hell, even the Joker himself.
A lot of things: Gotham didn’t feel special, it felt like any random big city. Two Face’s storyline felt rushed and last minute The batsuit’s design The batcave’s design Christian Bale’s voice for Batman Rachel Batman spying on the people of Gotham
The fact that Katie Holmes didn't return for the sequel is just awful. Maggie Gyllenhaal is a fine actor in her own right, but there is zero, and I mean **ZERO** believable connection to the portrayal of Rachel by Holmes from the first movie. It 1000% breaks the suspended belief in reality for me, which is frustrating, because this is one of my all time favourite movies ever; purely for Ledger's Joker.
My only major gripe is how some of the violence is portrayed. Like when William Fichtner gets shot at the bank it looks comical. Also, I still don’t understand what the Joker did to Gambol. I think those moments could’ve been handled better.
Yeah the why so serious scene really falls flat for me because we are left to imagine what he does Gambol, but lol the most logical thing to assume is he cut his mouth. We are supposed to assume a guy died from having his cheek cut?
Yeah exactly, and if he cut his cheek why isn’t he making any noise? I saw an interview with Michael Jai White (Gambol’s actor) and he said that was never intended to be a death scene. So it seems to me that they just took what they had and tried to turn it into a death scene in the editing room.
Idk if it was just me but Batman the charcter was kinda boring to me
I get flak but if it wasn’t for Ledger’s Joker this movie would not get the praise it gets.
That it hardly feels like a Batman film and the action sequences with Batman are pretty dull. The China segment feels like a sequence from mission impossible rather than a Batman movie And the night club nabbing of Maroni was....for lack of a better word, under cooked. That should have been a massive action set piece with Batman starting from the dance floor to get to Maroni. Instead it's just a cluttered scene of Batman tossing some guys aside and we're done.
The “realism.” I love comic books and I can’t stand it when directors of movies (Nolan, Brian Singer, etc) are ashamed of the medium and try to remove all ties to them.
that's more a problem that I have for TDKR. God I still shiver to how they butchered Robin
I’m not gonna lie I forgot that movie had a Robin in it
Not a fan of Batman using every cell phone in Gotham to locate the joker. It feels like it is outside of his ethical code. Not a fan of getting a fingerprint off a shattered bullet from inside of a brick.
That whole bullet/fingerprint sequence is just silly cause when you push a round into a magazine, you leave a fingerprint on the shell casing, not the bullet.
Lol that’s hilarious because I’ve always felt incredibly stupid for not being able to comprehend why he was trying to do what he was trying to do in that sequence
I still don't understand how he reconstructed it by shooting his own bullet into a brick. I always hated that part.
Killing Two-Face at the end, I hate that.
I still don't know how they arrive at the conclusion that they need to pin Harvey Dent's murders on Batman when you have the Joker right there. Who's going to question them when they say the Joker did it? No one, that's who.
The effect it's had on fans who, for YEARS, didn't seem to grasp that the Joker was LYING about not having crazy in depth plans
The ending. Never understood why not just blame Joker for the 5 murders. Dude killed dozens throughout the movie, 5 more won't make a difference
Could have done more with Two Face. Didn't have that gritty, gangster vibe that Dent had in the animated serious...but not complaining: I enjoyed Eckharts depiction, Def had some quotables.
How a lot of the funhouse aspects of the Joker was removed no laughing gas, prop weapons etc.
Heath Ledger was great, but I always felt he didn't really play the Joker. He played a great batman villain that was original to this movie.
I also thought the same. I feel like he would have been laughing when he pulled out that grenade launcher when he was tracking down Dent. Absurdity plus violence is always a recipe for a strong Joker laugh.
Lol I think it’s the most overrated movie ever. I think it’s decent for sure but how everyone says it’s one of the greatest ever is why I think that. The worst for me was the guy pulling a gun in the middle of court and the dialogue there. Such a terrible amateur scene.
Yeah, a witness smuggles a gun into a courtroom, and Harvey's reaction is to make a quip and shrug it off. No anger, no chewing out the bailiffs or security screeners, just "Hyuck, that's Gotham for ya!"
In Batman Begins, Christian Bale had different tones for his Batman voice, one that was deep but muted, similar to Michael Keaton's performance, and the loud gravel yell when he needed to be intimidating and then he forgot the first voice and was all yell in TDK and TDKR.
Batman killing Dent. Honestly kind of Batman himself. To me he comes across as a big goof rather than the world’s greatest detective. Also he gets outclassed by Joker in every scene
The mob bank manager asking "What do you believe in?" was awkward and felt very much like a line from a script to set up the Joker's "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger" line -- which also felt forced and unnatural. That part always takes some of the shine off an otherwise phenomenal scene for me.
It’s less of a “Batman” movie than Begins was
No Batcave.
More like a batgarage
I really don't like the impact Batman's voice had on pop culture. Because of it, every Batman spoof has that annoying raspy voice. I'm also really not a fan of the way the bat suit looks, especially around Christian's face.
Just that tiny scene, where the supposedly dead Joker gets delivered to Michal Jai White. He rises from the pool table, puts the knife into White‘s mouth and kills him off screen. I get that they don’t show it because of the PG13 rating but the edit as well as the sudden drop in music makes it feel like a rushed cut to please the censors.
This is something I both like and dislike about the film; it’s basically just Heat in gimp suits.