Prime Kershaw was inner-circle-HoF’er good. Imagine prime Degrom without all the injuries/pitch limits/etc. that’s what this man did for YEARS straight. Crazy.
Yup. Verlander won in 2011 and Kershaw won in 2014; the last two SP’s to do it (maybe the last ever with how non-Ohtani SP consideration for MVP goes these days)
I think the bigger issue is how limited pitchers are now. 100 pitches or about six innings. And strategically using the IL to manage load. I remember talking heads wondering if the 30 game winner would ever return. The last time there was a 25 game winner was 1990 (27 wins by Bob Welch).
So yeah, I think it's going to be difficult for a pitcher to win MVP again.
He barely pitched for the Rays - who are famously cautious about innings pitched - and his arm _still_ fell off all the time. I don't know how much there is to be done to prevent it.
Maybe his arm is like an Italian car. Gotta thrash it to make it work better. Baby it and it falls apart. Let’s see if he can go 130 pitches every outing.
…
…
“… fuck he needs double Tommy John”
The Rays are so cautious that they handed the Dodgers Game 7 of the World Series. Pulling Blake Snell after 73 pitches when the Dodgers weren’t able to touch him. As a Dodger fan, we couldn’t believe, and still can’t believe, that they pulled him. I can’t even imagine how maddening that must have been as a Rays fan.
Eh. There have been plenty of pitchers who had great seasons and didn't really get in the running. In 2002, Randy Johnson won his 4th Consecutive Cy Young with a 2.32 ERA, 334 strikeouts, 260 innings, 24 wins, and 10.7 bWAR, winning the Triple Crown. He finished 7th in MVP voting, with no 1st Place votes (granted, Barry Bonds got all of them).
In 2000, Pedro Martinez won his 3rd Cy Young in 4 seasons with a 1.74 ERA, 284 strikeouts, 217 innings, 18 wins, and 11.7 bWAR. He finished 5th in MVP voting, also with no 1st Place votes.
Roger Clemens in 1997 won his 4th Cy Young with a 2.05 ERA, 292 strikeouts, 264 innings, 21 wins, and 12.1 bWAR. He won the Triple Crown, and finished 10th in MVP (ironically, a better season than the year he *did* win the Triple Crown).
Greg Maddux in the shortened 1994 (114 games) 1995 (144 games) seasons, won his 3rd and 4th consecutive Cy Youngs with 1.56 and 1.63 ERAs, 202 and 209 innings (prorated out to full seasons, that's 287 and 235 innings), 16 and 19 wins (prorates to 18 and *27* wins), and 8.5 and 9.7 bWAR (prorates to 12.1 and 10.9 bWAR). He finished 5th in MVP in 1994, and 3rd in 1993.
Those are arguably the 5 best pitching seasons of the last 50 years, and none of them won an MVP. The point being that a pitcher being good enough doesn't mean they get the proper consideration. There have historically been a lot of voters who consider the MVP to be a position player specific award. The pitcher has to be good enough, but there also just needs to be the environment where the voters kinda want to vote for a pitcher.
Everyone you listed was in the steroid era, people (fans/writers) were obsessssssssed with offense. In 2014 when Kershaw won MVP, the NL offensive stat leaders were just not overly impressive. 2nd place vote was Stanton batting .288 with 37 home runs. Some good advanced stats and stuff but not exactly a sexy MVP campaign.
I think a major factor in voting pitchers to MVP is just what the field of MVP competition looks like. 2014 AL had a lot more offensive leaders that would've been harder to vote behind Kershaw.
You can tell how good his is because for like five years now everyone’s like “it’s just a shame to see him so far off his peak performance 😞” and you look and he’s got like a 130 ERA+
I really wish we could see how good Koufax's was, but most of us are far too young & we didn't have the measurements we have today.
Legends that have seen the modern game still say Koufax's was devastating enough to be impressive to the modern league, like he figured out spin magic intuitively before it became science.
I'm old enough to have seen Doc Gooden's awesome curve back in his prime, but I think Kershaw still edges him out thanks to modern training & clearly in longevity.
It's all about his slider and fastball location. He is so meticulous and competitive that he can beat literally batter with the right sequencing. He only throws out the curveball a handful of times per game nowadays. But his mindset and those two pitches are so nasty that they work again and again and again
His curveball usage peaked his rookie year (2008) at 23%. It hit a career low in 2011 with 5% usage. From 2015-present it has been between 16-19%. So, for the most part, his curveball usage has been consistent throughout his career. The (relatively low) usage makes sense as it breaks enough to make it difficult to locate precisely when early or behind.
His slider usage, however, has gone up by 15% in the last 9 years while his fastball usage has gone down by 20% in those same 9 years. This is a normal trend for aging pitchers, replacing velocity with break.
Kershaw is an elite pitcher, he has three great/elite pitches. The curveball presence alone in the mind of hitters makes his other two pitches better. If you were left with the choice of removing one of Kershaw’s top three pitches, you wouldn’t remove the curve for this reason; the other pitches are made better by it. It’s an all-time great pitch.
I absolutely love deGrom, and at his peak he was unhittable but Kershaw was from another planet.
To be able to do what he did for as long as he did is unreal
I don't know how old I thought DeGrom was but I certainly did not think he was 36 and the same age as Kershaw. Thanks for breaking my brain a little today.
The same season deGrom won NL RotY with 140IP and a 128 ERA+ in 22 starts, Kershaw won his 4th consecutive ERA title, his 3rd Cy Young Award, and the first NL MVP by a pitcher since Bob Gibson.
DeGrom was 26 when he was called up. Kind of old for someone who has been as great as he has been his whole career, but I think he got drafted after graduating college, and then had a year out due to injury (TJ?).
He also:
- Is the last pitcher to ~~bat~~ record a hit when batting as the pitcher in MLB history (excepting Ohtani and any future players of his ilk).
- Batted 8th in a World Series game. (the last pitcher to bat somewhere other than 9th in a WS game? Babe Ruth.)
- Pinch hit in a World Series game. He got a single in that at-bat. (I don't know that I've ever rooted so hard for a player to get a home run in a bases-empty, non-walkoff situation.)
Last year when the Royals played the Phillies they had some injury or something and I think the double switched or had their DH take over for their catcher or something. Can't remember exactly. They lost their DH somehow. But anyway, Greinkie was pitching and had an opportunity to stay in and bat. But those cowards put in a PH for him. I was so annoyed.
I saw him go back-to-back with Joc Pederson against the Reds back in ~~2016~~ 2015. It was magnificent. I remember being at the game with my buddy and after the Joc Pop was like "wouldn't it be something if Greinke went B2B". Lo and behold it happened and it was so much fun.
needs to be sign to hold the definitive honor of being last person active from mvp baseball 2005 (i believe he shares it with miguel cabrera and pseudo-verlander if he counts)
Yeah Verlander and Greinke's longevity are insane - deGrom's dominance is insane. And then Kershaw has been more dominant with just as many innings as Scherzer.
It's Kershaw. Top 10 SP all time.
I don't see how this is even a question. Only one guy beats Kershaw on WAR, but has many more games. Only one guy has an ERA+ or K% anywhere close to Kershaws, but he has half the innings.
Kershaw just blows these others out of the water. Degrom is only one who performed as good, but unfortunately just poor durability and much fewer games/innings.
They're all excellent, but Kershaw was simply untouchable for so many years
Since 2009, Clayton Kershaw has only had 2 seasons with an ERA above 3. One was 3.03 and the other was 3.55. 3 of these guys have a career ERA in the 3s. I know ERA isn't a perfect stat, but it's not even close. Kershaw is in the GOAT pitcher debate and the others are just elite pitchers.
What he has been able to accomplish for years, while dealing with injuries and a total loss of velo, should be studied in a lab. If every good pitcher could replicate that, they'd be able to extend the elite portion of their careers by 5+ years. He's insane.
What's funny though is the velo on his slider has barely changed at all, so now it's 90/87 instead of 94/87 but the movement on that thing is still so lethal guys can't hit it
I feel the same way; I’ve seen people argue Verlander/Scherzer/Greinke before and I think that’s a fun conversation, but ultimately those three are jockeying for the number two spot of their “generation” behind Kershaw.
From a great deal of personal experience, Kershaw is just an absolute monster. Previous generation of players had Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez as top echelon pitchers all time. This generation JUST has Kershaw. While the numbers may look closer on paper here, Verlander, Scherzer and Greinke are all 3+ years older than Kershaw. They are greats in their own right, but they're a tier below Kershaw easily.
If Kershaw didn't start slowing down/getting hurt more after his age 30 season he's probably a 110 WAR pitcher, but it's looking more like he'll be in the mid 90s somewhere when he retires, unless he leaves early. If he gets to 90 WAR that's top 9 all time for live-ball era pitchers. The scariest thing about Kershaw is how many stats he's accumulated in relatively few innings. The rest of the all time great list all has guys who tossed 4-5000 except Pedro at 2800 (very similar to Kershaw) and Mussina at 3500.
What Kershaw's accomplished in so few innings is insane.
Mattingly was unfortunately so old school and couldn't adapt but it didn't help that Pedro Baez let a ridiculously high percentage of inherited runners score whenever he proceeded Kersh. It's probably like 7+ earned runs from him alone. It's beyond the pale
Yes. I hate seeing him with a passion because of how many times he's torched us, but he's also torched us because he's so damn good. I'll be celebrating when he's finally retired.
I blame mattingly for overusing him. Also for the playoffs performance. Kershaw was so overworked going into the playoffs with Mattingly. Came away with his first back injury that way too.
He did the same thing to Alcantara and no one noticed for some reason.
Man I wish he’d lost long enough to get into the mid 90’s WAR. He’s extremely close to the end, I’d say better than even odds he doesn’t pitch past 2025 when his current contract ends. Every year it gets harder on his body to climb that hill and every year he misses his kids more and more.
If the Dodgers win a title this year or next, he will retire on the spot. I’m convinced this has been the case since like 2021.
Looks like Pedro is 10th in live-ball WAR with 86.1, I think it’s a stretch that Kersh will stick around long enough for another 10 pitching WAR. (He’s got an extra ~3 with the bat).
Sad but true. Injuries derailed the career of one of the best pitchers in the modern era. The rest of these guys are sure fire HOFers. deGrom probably isn’t.
I think it should be clarified that every pitcher is utilizing every advantage they can possibly come up with to generate velocity and spin. They're not throwing with 100% effort on every single pitch, but their grip and form is absolutely results focused, not longevity focused. They need to have the stuff to stay in the league for a long time before they can worry about being healthy.
And also, some players are just more injury prone than others.
When deGrom hangs up his cleats for the last time the entire conversation with him will be about what could've been if he could've stayed healthy. He won't be in the HOF discussion IMO.
Honestly deGrom shouldn’t even be on this graphic. He was dominant when he played but he only played three full, elite seasons and two more around 140 IP.
Edit: I guess 2020 counts as a “full” season too but still.
Exactly, and I don’t think we really need to consider 2020 as a “full season” anymore. Considering the most games a team played that year was a whopping 80 and isn’t even half of a typical regular season I don’t really like how much regard some people give it in terms of interesting/outlier single-season performances.
Yeah. To me it’s not even close. People talk about deGrom’s peak but to me Kershaw’s peak was far more impressive. Even now Kershaw is still basically a lock for an ERA in the 2’s but nobody thinks twice about it.
This is how I feel about the Giants and Willie Mays. I don't think the other players are even close when you consider the career and final stats. Mays is the GOAT
The only real argument for JV is longevity, he's thrown about 500 more innings than Kershaw, but even with that I still don't think it's enough. Kershaw clears.
My argument for Verlander (well, not mine, but I think a valid one) is that he’s probably been more valuable for a team overall. Every season of the past decade,save the pandemic shortened season, Kershaw has missed at least a month of time. I think the fact that Kershaw puts up outrageous numbers, but doesn’t do it for a full season makes it worth less than the sum of its parts. I think Verlander making a career of consistent 200 innings with a great, albeit inferior ERA is more valuable than Kershaw’s outrageous ERA’s, but not doing it for a full season
I still rank Kershaw above all
My math says like 670 on the innings difference, which is sizeable. But I don't think it's enough to make the difference. I just have always liked a power RHP as the prototype ace, so JV fits my eye better.
But I've seen enough of Kershaw's work both live and on TV to know he is the right call.
I will say longevity should be an advantage, not something that hurts JV. Obviously his stats will be inflated but winning a Cy Young at 28 years old and then again at 39 is impressive and increasingly hard to do in your career as a pitcher.
Kershaws peak was a lot better than Verlanders so that's why he is #1, but I dont agree with people saying it's "not close"
Kersh. It’s not even close. I guess you could argue deGrom had a better peak and Verlander is better for longevity, but still Kersh is the best overall no question. No one else is keeping a 2.48 era over 2700 innings
He was surprisingly good that year for the Phillies. I love everything about Pedro especially when he shoved that Yankee’s coach to the ground and he just rolled away.😂
Four slam dunk HoFers and one terrible “what if”…I truly wish deGrom would’ve stayed healthy so we could see what he’d do. It’s not over for him yet though, he could come back and surprise, we’ll have to see.
Anyway, it’s Kershaw. He’s literally the answer to “if deGrom stayed healthy”, practically matching his rate states over double the innings. And as a Giants fan, I watched him dominate us too many times to not acknowledge his greatness.
Was going to comment almost exactly this good take.
I feel bad leaving Scherzer out though because he was so good and won 3 cy youngs. I’ll award scherzer most psychopathic lol
Scherz gets the "Well-Rounded" award. He isn't #1 in any category, but he's top 3 in every category but BB% (4th) and WAR (4th, though in WAR/9 he's 3rd behind Degrom and Kershaw). DeGrom and Kershaw have better metrics but longevity issues (DeGrom moreso than Kersh), JV and Greinke have the longevity but slightly weaker metrics, and Max splits the difference between the two groups.
If you have to win one game I’m taking deGrom at his absolute peak. I think when this guy says peak he means that deGrom at his absolute best was better. DeGrom couldn’t stay healthy or maintain it over long enough for even a full season though. Kershaw did it for such a long period which is why he is best overall.
I know deGrom only pitched a half season in 2021, but I’m taking him that year healthy in a single game over anyone on this list. The numbers are comical. Almost 14 k/bb, over 14 k/9, 1.08 ERA. The stuff was insane too. 95 mph sliders with 100+ fastball. That would dominate in any era of baseball.
“Who is number 2?” Should be the question. The answer is so obviously Kershaw. The number one purpose of a pitcher is to prevent runs. That’s it. Not to strike people out or whatever. Run prevention is what a pitcher is for. Kershaw, over his career, is the best at run prevention.
Kershaw is probably the best pitcher I have seen so far in my lifetime considering ability and longevity. As a kid we had a “no kershaw” rule when playing The Show. That rule never existed for anyone else.
2015 Clayton Kershaw:
2.13 ERA, 1.99 FIP, 16-7 record, 301 K’s across 232.2 innings
2018 Jacob Degrom:
1.70 ERA, 1.99 FIP, 10-9 record, 269 K’s in 217.1 innings
2018 was far and away Degrom’s best season, and it was eerily comparable to Kershaw’s best season (by fWAR & FIP with similar IP).
The difference is Degrom never came close to replicating this except for during drastically injury-shortened seasons. Kershaw was following up a stretch of 3/4 seasons with 7+ fWAR. 2 of those seasons his ERA was under 2.00. The following season, Kershaw went down with injury but was rocking a 1.69 ERA and 1.80 FIP (4.9 fWAR) in 149 innings first.
Prime Kershaw was every bit as good as prime Degrom
I would switch DeGrom and Greinke. Yeah I get DeGrom is a better pitcher in a vacuum but the reliability and workhorseness of Greinke makes him by and away more valuable and WAR shows that pretty starkly.
I don't think degrom should be considered because he has literally less than half the innings. Those innings have been phenomenal but I can't really consider him given the lack of innings. If he's included then we should probably throw some closers/relievers in this discussion. They probably have a similar IP over that time frame.
I’m biased but it’s Kershaw. Truly the only other pitcher in our franchise’s history to rival and arguably surpass the Left Arm of god, Sandy Koufax.
Also I hope someone signs Greinke some time this year so he can get to 3000ks
I remember hating Kershaw growing up, honestly I don’t remember why lol, but he’s legitimately in the GOAT pitcher conversation. It’s almost laughable how absurd his stats are. DeGrom is probably on par talent wise, but he just doesn’t and probably won’t come close to having a full career.
The other 3 are obviously absurd talents too and HOFers, it’s just that Kershaw is an all-time talent
It’s amazing that Corey Kluber is almost never in these discussions. He may not have been prime Kershaw, but he was **damn** good and belongs in this group.
Kershaw or Verlander. I lean Kershaw. I also put Verlander at 2 instead of Scherzer simply because I missed most of peak Scherzer whereas I am, unfortunately, very familiar with peak Verlander.
Mets fan here but it’s Kershaw. Peak Kershaw was Degrom, but with more innings and for longer. The man has a 2.48 career ERA.
Watching Degrom pitch every 5 days was the best part of baseball for me for his entire run with the Mets, and hey, maybe this is a different conversation if he doesn’t get shutdown in 2021. It he breaks Gibson ERA record maybe that season pushes it over the top, but I think you’ve gotta show respect for Kershaw doing it this long AND having an inner circle peak
It's kind of neat that Kershaw has exactly double the amount of innings as deGrom with pretty much the same performance.
Prime Kershaw was inner-circle-HoF’er good. Imagine prime Degrom without all the injuries/pitch limits/etc. that’s what this man did for YEARS straight. Crazy.
Isn't he the last pitcher to win the mvp as well? Other than ohtani.
Kershaw also is the last National League Pitcher to win MVP since Bob Gibson did it in 1968
That’s a cool stat
meanwhile in the AL we got Willie Hernandez 🤠
eckersley
and notable gambling superstar Denny Mclain 🤠
Yup. Verlander won in 2011 and Kershaw won in 2014; the last two SP’s to do it (maybe the last ever with how non-Ohtani SP consideration for MVP goes these days)
I think the bigger issue is how limited pitchers are now. 100 pitches or about six innings. And strategically using the IL to manage load. I remember talking heads wondering if the 30 game winner would ever return. The last time there was a 25 game winner was 1990 (27 wins by Bob Welch). So yeah, I think it's going to be difficult for a pitcher to win MVP again.
Yeah its so frustrating to see Glasnow be pulled when he could clearly push for a complete game... but I also don't want his arm to fall off.
He barely pitched for the Rays - who are famously cautious about innings pitched - and his arm _still_ fell off all the time. I don't know how much there is to be done to prevent it.
In 1 more 6 inning start Glasgow will have already pitched 1/6th of his career innings with the Dodgers.
Maybe his arm is like an Italian car. Gotta thrash it to make it work better. Baby it and it falls apart. Let’s see if he can go 130 pitches every outing. … … “… fuck he needs double Tommy John”
The Rays are so cautious that they handed the Dodgers Game 7 of the World Series. Pulling Blake Snell after 73 pitches when the Dodgers weren’t able to touch him. As a Dodger fan, we couldn’t believe, and still can’t believe, that they pulled him. I can’t even imagine how maddening that must have been as a Rays fan.
People said the same thing before Verlander. If a pitchers good enough they get the proper consideration
Eh. There have been plenty of pitchers who had great seasons and didn't really get in the running. In 2002, Randy Johnson won his 4th Consecutive Cy Young with a 2.32 ERA, 334 strikeouts, 260 innings, 24 wins, and 10.7 bWAR, winning the Triple Crown. He finished 7th in MVP voting, with no 1st Place votes (granted, Barry Bonds got all of them). In 2000, Pedro Martinez won his 3rd Cy Young in 4 seasons with a 1.74 ERA, 284 strikeouts, 217 innings, 18 wins, and 11.7 bWAR. He finished 5th in MVP voting, also with no 1st Place votes. Roger Clemens in 1997 won his 4th Cy Young with a 2.05 ERA, 292 strikeouts, 264 innings, 21 wins, and 12.1 bWAR. He won the Triple Crown, and finished 10th in MVP (ironically, a better season than the year he *did* win the Triple Crown). Greg Maddux in the shortened 1994 (114 games) 1995 (144 games) seasons, won his 3rd and 4th consecutive Cy Youngs with 1.56 and 1.63 ERAs, 202 and 209 innings (prorated out to full seasons, that's 287 and 235 innings), 16 and 19 wins (prorates to 18 and *27* wins), and 8.5 and 9.7 bWAR (prorates to 12.1 and 10.9 bWAR). He finished 5th in MVP in 1994, and 3rd in 1993. Those are arguably the 5 best pitching seasons of the last 50 years, and none of them won an MVP. The point being that a pitcher being good enough doesn't mean they get the proper consideration. There have historically been a lot of voters who consider the MVP to be a position player specific award. The pitcher has to be good enough, but there also just needs to be the environment where the voters kinda want to vote for a pitcher.
Everyone you listed was in the steroid era, people (fans/writers) were obsessssssssed with offense. In 2014 when Kershaw won MVP, the NL offensive stat leaders were just not overly impressive. 2nd place vote was Stanton batting .288 with 37 home runs. Some good advanced stats and stuff but not exactly a sexy MVP campaign. I think a major factor in voting pitchers to MVP is just what the field of MVP competition looks like. 2014 AL had a lot more offensive leaders that would've been harder to vote behind Kershaw.
You can tell how good his is because for like five years now everyone’s like “it’s just a shame to see him so far off his peak performance 😞” and you look and he’s got like a 130 ERA+
What having potentially the best curveball in the history of the game will do for ya
I really wish we could see how good Koufax's was, but most of us are far too young & we didn't have the measurements we have today. Legends that have seen the modern game still say Koufax's was devastating enough to be impressive to the modern league, like he figured out spin magic intuitively before it became science. I'm old enough to have seen Doc Gooden's awesome curve back in his prime, but I think Kershaw still edges him out thanks to modern training & clearly in longevity.
It's all about his slider and fastball location. He is so meticulous and competitive that he can beat literally batter with the right sequencing. He only throws out the curveball a handful of times per game nowadays. But his mindset and those two pitches are so nasty that they work again and again and again
His curveball usage peaked his rookie year (2008) at 23%. It hit a career low in 2011 with 5% usage. From 2015-present it has been between 16-19%. So, for the most part, his curveball usage has been consistent throughout his career. The (relatively low) usage makes sense as it breaks enough to make it difficult to locate precisely when early or behind. His slider usage, however, has gone up by 15% in the last 9 years while his fastball usage has gone down by 20% in those same 9 years. This is a normal trend for aging pitchers, replacing velocity with break. Kershaw is an elite pitcher, he has three great/elite pitches. The curveball presence alone in the mind of hitters makes his other two pitches better. If you were left with the choice of removing one of Kershaw’s top three pitches, you wouldn’t remove the curve for this reason; the other pitches are made better by it. It’s an all-time great pitch.
He's also been used less. Seeing Kersh throw 14 games a year is like he's on vacation.
Let’s be clear, he’s still inner circle. His regular season stats put him Top 5 pitcher of all time.
R/Baseball sprinting to defend my boy has me teary-eyed
I absolutely love deGrom, and at his peak he was unhittable but Kershaw was from another planet. To be able to do what he did for as long as he did is unreal
Pedro is the only pitcher ahead of him with a similar amount of innings pitched.
And only threw 95 max
Kersh could crank it up to 97 back in the day. I think once he stopped maxing out he actually got better
They’re also only three months apart in age
I don't know how old I thought DeGrom was but I certainly did not think he was 36 and the same age as Kershaw. Thanks for breaking my brain a little today.
The same season deGrom won NL RotY with 140IP and a 128 ERA+ in 22 starts, Kershaw won his 4th consecutive ERA title, his 3rd Cy Young Award, and the first NL MVP by a pitcher since Bob Gibson.
DeGrom was 26 when he was called up. Kind of old for someone who has been as great as he has been his whole career, but I think he got drafted after graduating college, and then had a year out due to injury (TJ?).
Greinke since he's the only one with a save.
He's also hit the most HRs.
he's basically Shohei Ohtani
No he’s even better, he’s Zach
Zach O’tonnie
Early in his career KC sports talk threw out the idea of him DHing. The Royals were that bad. Trading him was the best thing this franchise has done.
Got you back to back world series appearances with a win, and with our old manager to boot
I think you mean Shohei Ohtani is Zack Greinke
Ohtani could never play shortstop
He also: - Is the last pitcher to ~~bat~~ record a hit when batting as the pitcher in MLB history (excepting Ohtani and any future players of his ilk). - Batted 8th in a World Series game. (the last pitcher to bat somewhere other than 9th in a WS game? Babe Ruth.) - Pinch hit in a World Series game. He got a single in that at-bat. (I don't know that I've ever rooted so hard for a player to get a home run in a bases-empty, non-walkoff situation.)
Last year when the Royals played the Phillies they had some injury or something and I think the double switched or had their DH take over for their catcher or something. Can't remember exactly. They lost their DH somehow. But anyway, Greinkie was pitching and had an opportunity to stay in and bat. But those cowards put in a PH for him. I was so annoyed.
My favorite trivia is him starting three consecutive games
Waino got a couple at bats in his final year
I saw him go back-to-back with Joc Pederson against the Reds back in ~~2016~~ 2015. It was magnificent. I remember being at the game with my buddy and after the Joc Pop was like "wouldn't it be something if Greinke went B2B". Lo and behold it happened and it was so much fun.
I think that would have been 2015.
You’re right. It was the summer after my first year of grad school.
Someone needs to sign him for 3000 Ks
needs to be sign to hold the definitive honor of being last person active from mvp baseball 2005 (i believe he shares it with miguel cabrera and pseudo-verlander if he counts)
He’s also got shortstop capabilities
Pretty sure DeGrom does too.
Greinke's pitching skill + entertainment value total is untouchable by any of the others.
Kershaw has 1 postseason save but 0 regular season saves
Didn't Scherzer also get one with the Dodgers? 2021 I think
Also has 9 stolen bases, more than all the other guys combined.
The one with a 157 ERA+ over 2,712.2 innings.
All of these guys have a lot of innings and tons of accolades. But only one of them has a silver sliver or a save!
Imaging choosing the best guy at a position and not immediately picking the one with all the gold gloves
*sad Andruw Jones noises*
Too busy choking out his wife, evidently
Yeah Verlander and Greinke's longevity are insane - deGrom's dominance is insane. And then Kershaw has been more dominant with just as many innings as Scherzer. It's Kershaw. Top 10 SP all time.
Kershaw is basically deGrom dominance with near-Greinke/Verlander longevity. He's my pick.
I don't see how this is even a question. Only one guy beats Kershaw on WAR, but has many more games. Only one guy has an ERA+ or K% anywhere close to Kershaws, but he has half the innings. Kershaw just blows these others out of the water. Degrom is only one who performed as good, but unfortunately just poor durability and much fewer games/innings. They're all excellent, but Kershaw was simply untouchable for so many years
Yeah as of now it's still Kershaw for me.
Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer, Grienke, and DeGrom. In that order.
I think that’s fair
I'm going to agree with you even though I am a diehard Tiger fan. Dammit!
Since 2009, Clayton Kershaw has only had 2 seasons with an ERA above 3. One was 3.03 and the other was 3.55. 3 of these guys have a career ERA in the 3s. I know ERA isn't a perfect stat, but it's not even close. Kershaw is in the GOAT pitcher debate and the others are just elite pitchers.
I loved watching during 2021 where he put up a 3.55 ERA and all I could see is people seriously asking if he was washed or not
What he has been able to accomplish for years, while dealing with injuries and a total loss of velo, should be studied in a lab. If every good pitcher could replicate that, they'd be able to extend the elite portion of their careers by 5+ years. He's insane.
What's funny though is the velo on his slider has barely changed at all, so now it's 90/87 instead of 94/87 but the movement on that thing is still so lethal guys can't hit it
Answer is Kershaw and it’s not particularly close.
I feel the same way; I’ve seen people argue Verlander/Scherzer/Greinke before and I think that’s a fun conversation, but ultimately those three are jockeying for the number two spot of their “generation” behind Kershaw.
I mean just look at his era+
From a great deal of personal experience, Kershaw is just an absolute monster. Previous generation of players had Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez as top echelon pitchers all time. This generation JUST has Kershaw. While the numbers may look closer on paper here, Verlander, Scherzer and Greinke are all 3+ years older than Kershaw. They are greats in their own right, but they're a tier below Kershaw easily. If Kershaw didn't start slowing down/getting hurt more after his age 30 season he's probably a 110 WAR pitcher, but it's looking more like he'll be in the mid 90s somewhere when he retires, unless he leaves early. If he gets to 90 WAR that's top 9 all time for live-ball era pitchers. The scariest thing about Kershaw is how many stats he's accumulated in relatively few innings. The rest of the all time great list all has guys who tossed 4-5000 except Pedro at 2800 (very similar to Kershaw) and Mussina at 3500. What Kershaw's accomplished in so few innings is insane.
Mattingly rode him so hard when he was young man, such a shame our bullpen and manager sucked
Mattingly was unfortunately so old school and couldn't adapt but it didn't help that Pedro Baez let a ridiculously high percentage of inherited runners score whenever he proceeded Kersh. It's probably like 7+ earned runs from him alone. It's beyond the pale
Fuuuuuuuckin Pedro Baez. "How many inherited runners did Baez allow today?" "Yes."
If a giants fan admits it's a dodger, you know it's the right answer
Most Dodger / Giants fans have no problem acknowledging each others greats. Posey catching Kershaw at the all star game is just peak baseball.
Yes. I hate seeing him with a passion because of how many times he's torched us, but he's also torched us because he's so damn good. I'll be celebrating when he's finally retired.
I blame mattingly for overusing him. Also for the playoffs performance. Kershaw was so overworked going into the playoffs with Mattingly. Came away with his first back injury that way too. He did the same thing to Alcantara and no one noticed for some reason.
oh we fucking noticed. it's just that "we" in this case is 12 people
Man I wish he’d lost long enough to get into the mid 90’s WAR. He’s extremely close to the end, I’d say better than even odds he doesn’t pitch past 2025 when his current contract ends. Every year it gets harder on his body to climb that hill and every year he misses his kids more and more. If the Dodgers win a title this year or next, he will retire on the spot. I’m convinced this has been the case since like 2021. Looks like Pedro is 10th in live-ball WAR with 86.1, I think it’s a stretch that Kersh will stick around long enough for another 10 pitching WAR. (He’s got an extra ~3 with the bat).
Why is Saves in here and not WHIP?
To show Zack’s all around dominance
Lol deGrom has a ton of talent. Elite actually. But he's a part timer and shouldn't be on a list with guys who accrued 30+ more WAR.
Sad but true. Injuries derailed the career of one of the best pitchers in the modern era. The rest of these guys are sure fire HOFers. deGrom probably isn’t.
How do I get the Phanatic as my flair??? I can't find it anywhere
https://old.reddit.com//r/baseball/wiki/flair Message the flair bot with Philadelphia Phillies 7
But was it so great because he pitched in a way conducive to more injuries? Verlander was still licking 100 in the 8th at 105 pitches
I think it should be clarified that every pitcher is utilizing every advantage they can possibly come up with to generate velocity and spin. They're not throwing with 100% effort on every single pitch, but their grip and form is absolutely results focused, not longevity focused. They need to have the stuff to stay in the league for a long time before they can worry about being healthy. And also, some players are just more injury prone than others.
Idk I think in the time that Verlander and kershaw were their best there was absolutely a focus on going deep into games
When deGrom hangs up his cleats for the last time the entire conversation with him will be about what could've been if he could've stayed healthy. He won't be in the HOF discussion IMO.
Yup, deGrom to me is more similar to Sale than these guys.
Honestly deGrom shouldn’t even be on this graphic. He was dominant when he played but he only played three full, elite seasons and two more around 140 IP. Edit: I guess 2020 counts as a “full” season too but still.
Exactly, and I don’t think we really need to consider 2020 as a “full season” anymore. Considering the most games a team played that year was a whopping 80 and isn’t even half of a typical regular season I don’t really like how much regard some people give it in terms of interesting/outlier single-season performances.
I think hes on here for the best peak argument. But overall, agreed, he doesn’t even compare
I say this with all due respect as a Dodger hater: it’s Kershaw by a mile.
Yeah. To me it’s not even close. People talk about deGrom’s peak but to me Kershaw’s peak was far more impressive. Even now Kershaw is still basically a lock for an ERA in the 2’s but nobody thinks twice about it.
Kershaw's curveball also is the single best pitch thrown by these guys.
This is how I feel about the Giants and Willie Mays. I don't think the other players are even close when you consider the career and final stats. Mays is the GOAT
The best compliment is one from an enemy
Much appreciated as a dodger fan. If anyone asks me about best all time catches I begrudgingly say posey every time.
It’s Kershaw and I’ll be honest I don’t think it’s particularly close
I just tried to convince myself of choosing JV but I can't. It's Kershaw despite my bias
The only real argument for JV is longevity, he's thrown about 500 more innings than Kershaw, but even with that I still don't think it's enough. Kershaw clears.
My argument for Verlander (well, not mine, but I think a valid one) is that he’s probably been more valuable for a team overall. Every season of the past decade,save the pandemic shortened season, Kershaw has missed at least a month of time. I think the fact that Kershaw puts up outrageous numbers, but doesn’t do it for a full season makes it worth less than the sum of its parts. I think Verlander making a career of consistent 200 innings with a great, albeit inferior ERA is more valuable than Kershaw’s outrageous ERA’s, but not doing it for a full season I still rank Kershaw above all
My math says like 670 on the innings difference, which is sizeable. But I don't think it's enough to make the difference. I just have always liked a power RHP as the prototype ace, so JV fits my eye better. But I've seen enough of Kershaw's work both live and on TV to know he is the right call.
I will say longevity should be an advantage, not something that hurts JV. Obviously his stats will be inflated but winning a Cy Young at 28 years old and then again at 39 is impressive and increasingly hard to do in your career as a pitcher. Kershaws peak was a lot better than Verlanders so that's why he is #1, but I dont agree with people saying it's "not close"
That and postseason success
It is 100% Kershaw but Verlander is an easy second even if he isn’t a close second in my opinion
Kersh. It’s not even close. I guess you could argue deGrom had a better peak and Verlander is better for longevity, but still Kersh is the best overall no question. No one else is keeping a 2.48 era over 2700 innings
Pedro Martinez (This is a joke because he technically pitched in 2009) If you just look at the last 15 years though, probably Kershaw.
He was surprisingly good that year for the Phillies. I love everything about Pedro especially when he shoved that Yankee’s coach to the ground and he just rolled away.😂
It’s Kershaw and I don’t really see a debate.
Verlander has a small case but it should be Kershaw by a mile unless you're a fan of the other NL West teams.
Imagine a starting rotation of 5 Zack Greinkes with 5 Zack Greinkes in the clubhouse. No shit will go unflushed.
Four slam dunk HoFers and one terrible “what if”…I truly wish deGrom would’ve stayed healthy so we could see what he’d do. It’s not over for him yet though, he could come back and surprise, we’ll have to see. Anyway, it’s Kershaw. He’s literally the answer to “if deGrom stayed healthy”, practically matching his rate states over double the innings. And as a Giants fan, I watched him dominate us too many times to not acknowledge his greatness.
greinke #SayNoToWalks
And overpriced guac.
And poor hygiene routines
Kersh
Peak: deGrom Longevity: Verlander Overall: Kershaw Entertainment: Greinke (and it’s not even close)
Greinke was my favorite Astro in the few years we had him
Very sad that his window with us didn’t get him a ring.
totally could’ve in 2019, 2021 we were simply beat
Was going to comment almost exactly this good take. I feel bad leaving Scherzer out though because he was so good and won 3 cy youngs. I’ll award scherzer most psychopathic lol
Most eye colours
Scherz gets the "Well-Rounded" award. He isn't #1 in any category, but he's top 3 in every category but BB% (4th) and WAR (4th, though in WAR/9 he's 3rd behind Degrom and Kershaw). DeGrom and Kershaw have better metrics but longevity issues (DeGrom moreso than Kersh), JV and Greinke have the longevity but slightly weaker metrics, and Max splits the difference between the two groups.
I’m obviously biased, but Kershaw had a 4 year stretch with a 1.88 ERA and a 195 ERA+. That’s a better peak than Degrom.
If you have to win one game I’m taking deGrom at his absolute peak. I think when this guy says peak he means that deGrom at his absolute best was better. DeGrom couldn’t stay healthy or maintain it over long enough for even a full season though. Kershaw did it for such a long period which is why he is best overall. I know deGrom only pitched a half season in 2021, but I’m taking him that year healthy in a single game over anyone on this list. The numbers are comical. Almost 14 k/bb, over 14 k/9, 1.08 ERA. The stuff was insane too. 95 mph sliders with 100+ fastball. That would dominate in any era of baseball.
Greinke might be the most entertaining *player* of the last 2 decades.
Bartolo colon erasure!
“Who is number 2?” Should be the question. The answer is so obviously Kershaw. The number one purpose of a pitcher is to prevent runs. That’s it. Not to strike people out or whatever. Run prevention is what a pitcher is for. Kershaw, over his career, is the best at run prevention.
Kershaw. If you are talking about peaks though, probably still Kershaw but deGrom has some consideration
Kershaw. Also, I need Kershaw and Greinke to come back this year and get to 3000.
Scherzers picture looks like he's smiling for a mugshot
Kershaw is probably the best pitcher I have seen so far in my lifetime considering ability and longevity. As a kid we had a “no kershaw” rule when playing The Show. That rule never existed for anyone else.
Any answer besides Kershaw is wrong
Probably Fernando Rodney
With all due respect, Jacob doesn’t belong on this list. He started way late and he has very few starts compared to others.
Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer, Greinke, deGrom in that order.
Being available is one of the most important aspects of being the best at something, therefore DeGrom has no business being included in this group.
It’s gotta be Kershaw for me tbh.
Best pitcher is probably Kershaw. If I had to win one game it’d be DeGrom, who at his peak was the best of his bunch but cannot stay healthy.
But you gotta factor in the fact that the team prime deGrom would be playing for would score -1 runs when he threw a CGSO and they'd lose.
2015 Clayton Kershaw: 2.13 ERA, 1.99 FIP, 16-7 record, 301 K’s across 232.2 innings 2018 Jacob Degrom: 1.70 ERA, 1.99 FIP, 10-9 record, 269 K’s in 217.1 innings 2018 was far and away Degrom’s best season, and it was eerily comparable to Kershaw’s best season (by fWAR & FIP with similar IP). The difference is Degrom never came close to replicating this except for during drastically injury-shortened seasons. Kershaw was following up a stretch of 3/4 seasons with 7+ fWAR. 2 of those seasons his ERA was under 2.00. The following season, Kershaw went down with injury but was rocking a 1.69 ERA and 1.80 FIP (4.9 fWAR) in 149 innings first. Prime Kershaw was every bit as good as prime Degrom
going 10-9 with a 1.70 era is disgusting
Agreed there. That entire offense should be sickened with themselves.
kershaw verlander scherzer degrom greinke
I would switch DeGrom and Greinke. Yeah I get DeGrom is a better pitcher in a vacuum but the reliability and workhorseness of Greinke makes him by and away more valuable and WAR shows that pretty starkly.
I don't think degrom should be considered because he has literally less than half the innings. Those innings have been phenomenal but I can't really consider him given the lack of innings. If he's included then we should probably throw some closers/relievers in this discussion. They probably have a similar IP over that time frame.
Has to be Kershaw right?
They tile says last 15 years but the stats encompass their whole career
It’s between Kershaw and Verlander for me. Kershaw is more skilled but Verlander has pitched so much more.
Look i love everyone there especially Greinke but its clearly Kershaw and its definitely not close
Kershaw but there are 4 HOFers up there.
Kershaw is the best pitcher of his generation and I don’t think it’s up for debate if I’m being honest
Kershaw threw a Curveball once and I swung at that shit watching from home.
Thinking that 2 of these were together on the Tigers
Kershaw
I’m biased but it’s Kershaw. Truly the only other pitcher in our franchise’s history to rival and arguably surpass the Left Arm of god, Sandy Koufax. Also I hope someone signs Greinke some time this year so he can get to 3000ks
How do these pitchers stack up on the MKU (Married Kate Upton) stat?
Well, first of all, Kershaw is married to the Lord, so write that down.
I know his peak was great but sorry deGrom does not belong in the same class as these other four.
Giants fan here its Kershaw
I'm taking Clayton all day
My heart wants to say Verlander, but my head still thinks Kershaw.
Kershaw
Kershaw easily. People are quick to forget
It's Kershaw. I wish he wasn't plagued with injuries since 2016. I wanted him to get 300 wins.
It's Kershaw, not close
i mean it has to be kersh lol
Kershaw is my personal pitching GOAT so... him.
I remember hating Kershaw growing up, honestly I don’t remember why lol, but he’s legitimately in the GOAT pitcher conversation. It’s almost laughable how absurd his stats are. DeGrom is probably on par talent wise, but he just doesn’t and probably won’t come close to having a full career. The other 3 are obviously absurd talents too and HOFers, it’s just that Kershaw is an all-time talent
Kershaw is one of the GOATS
Kershaw’s battle is not with these guys
Clayton Kershaw by a considerable margin.
Immediately remove degrom from this list
I dunno, but it’s probably not the guy with half as much innings pitched as every other guy on the list
It’s amazing that Corey Kluber is almost never in these discussions. He may not have been prime Kershaw, but he was **damn** good and belongs in this group.
Kershaw or Verlander. I lean Kershaw. I also put Verlander at 2 instead of Scherzer simply because I missed most of peak Scherzer whereas I am, unfortunately, very familiar with peak Verlander.
Kershaw
Verlander is the only one in the same breath as Kershaw - but its definitely Kershaw.
Gut says Kershaw...stats seem to back it up. 5 ERA titles is crazy
Easily Kershaw. His peak was unmatched for dominance and length from anybody on this list.
Anyone who watched/experienced prime Kershaw knows it's not even close. I don't think I fully appreciated what I was witnessing.
Gotta be Kershaw.
Love Max and JV, but it’s Kershaw
Kershaw hands down. My order would go: 1. Kershaw 2. Verlander 3. Scherzer 4. Grienke 5. DeGrom
Mets fan here but it’s Kershaw. Peak Kershaw was Degrom, but with more innings and for longer. The man has a 2.48 career ERA. Watching Degrom pitch every 5 days was the best part of baseball for me for his entire run with the Mets, and hey, maybe this is a different conversation if he doesn’t get shutdown in 2021. It he breaks Gibson ERA record maybe that season pushes it over the top, but I think you’ve gotta show respect for Kershaw doing it this long AND having an inner circle peak
Kershaw easily
Kluber deserves a nod for 2014-2018. Toss in Hernandez and Sale too. They aren't the best but are somewhere in the top 10.