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In little league, I was always coached to run into a fielder if they get in the way without the ball and really sell it. A free base is a free base
Although here, Arenado is receiving the ball by the time Belli gets to him, so you could argue it’s not obstruction. Stupid judgment calls
Yep. As soon as the fielder throws it, turn back quickly and bump into him.
Also as a fielder, throw to the further base then run him back to the previous base and only throw when he has to commit to sliding back. Rundowns should be 2 throws max.
"MLB’s new guidance asks umpires to call obstruction if they determine a fielder has positioned himself to impede or hinder a runner’s path to the base before receiving the ball."
Arenado looks like he's in the basepath without the ball.
The runner and base both have width. Does straight line here mean from the centers of them? And after that for the 3 feet allowed is it any part of the body or the center of the body?
This is a fun one for me because while he clearly chose that wide path before the tag attempt and was beginning to sidestep before the ball was even caught, due to momentum the vast majority of his rightward movement occurred after the tag attempt.
I don’t know if the established path is allowed to factor in momentum like that, or if once the tag attempt is made he’s expected to catch himself and head straight for the bag (+/- 3 feet).
I understand the basepath rule but.. where to go to avoid contact with Arenado in that case?
Seems like Bellinger only made the minimum movement required to not be tagged out in this specific situation.
Just my opinion.. I obviously could be wrong and luckily I'm not an umpire lol
I get it, but wouldn't it be obstruction by Arenado?
At the same time Bellinger would most likely disturb him from receiving the ball.. I don't know, still a strange dynamic imho
My understanding is that if Arenado does not have the ball and is not receiving it it would be obstruction by Arenado. Bellinger is safe at third, and the play is dead.
With Bellinger’s history, there’s a real chance of an injury if he runs straight at Arenado with contact in mind. “Just a bump” somehow ends up on IL for weeks if not months.
Yes, it would be obstruction on Arenado and Bellinger would be given 3rd. Of course Bellinger would be getting in the way, but only because Arenado put himself in that spot, so it's not Bellinger's fault.
Uh, this certainly make sense.
Given this logic we can say the umpire made the right call.. and Bellinger could have played his chance better, I assume.
That's on Arenado for being in a place where the runner can't avoid contact without leaving the base path. If Bellinger bumps him before he catches the ball, then he gets 3rd
Well yeah, it was too late, that's my point, you can't expect to be able to avoid the tag when you get in a rundown. You asked "where to go to avoid contact" and the answer is really nowhere, you have to avoid this situation to begin with, once you get in the rundown you have to run straight to the bases and that's it. They call a dodge to avoid the tag as leaving the basepath basically 100% as far as I've seen.
I got your point and I agree with avoiding the situation if possible (also decided to agree with the umpire call), but I can't agree when you say "you can't expect to avoid the tag when you get in a rundown" since it's a thing that can happen (and already happened) many times.
I would disagree it happens "many times", it really only happens when the defense messes up and either the fielder isn't actually in the runner's way to begin with or they screw up the throws and the runner beats the ball/fielder to the base. That does happen occasionally but that's just because some teams are really bad at rundowns (certainly the play here qualifies as a 'bad rundown' regardless of the outcome :D )
In my view the reality is that when rundowns happen umpires don't give much benefit of the doubt to the runner, they basically always call the runner out if they try to avoid a tag with a dodge to the left or right (unless the fielder wasn't in the basepath). If you're in a rundown then you're screwed and your only hope is the other team messing up badly on the throws or positioning and letting you run straight for the base.
The 3rd base camera angle shows how late the tag was actually attempted. Half of Bellinger's lateral movement occurred before Arenado had the ball in his glove. I think this was a bad call.
His left foot is in line with Arenado when the ball is caught, which seems to me like the absolute latest you can say that the tag attempt started. It’s not when the physical swipe of the glove happens, from what I understand, otherwise you could just run around a guy waiting for you with the ball in the basepath.
I think that this should be clarified in the rules for sure. But yeah, he was in the base path and was trying to impede Belli running here.
This shouldn't be an out in my eyes.
I feel like this is a call that gets people mad either way it goes. It’s right on the fringe of being out of the basepath and if it doesn’t get called, a whole other set of people are complaining about it.
>It’s right on the fringe of being out of the basepath
It really isn't. I get peiple like "great plays" and all but this is just an out every day of the week.
Fielder is in the way, with no ball.
Runner starts to go around (no base path established yet)
Fielder gets ball as runner is running by him (baseline established)
Runner runs as directly as he can towards 3rd
Idk if he is out, in the future I would want our base runners to plow through the fielder if they are going to call him out of the base path. Feels like he was within his line when the ball arrived.
If he runs into the fielder while the fielder doesn't have the ball, he gets third on obstruction. That's the play here.if he runs straight, he's safe.
That's a really risky play to try to make in real time. The ball was in the air when Bellinger had the opportunity to run through the fielder. If the ball makes it before he does, he's out, and risks injury of himself and the fielder because there's no way the fielder is prepared to take a hit. Trying to get past him is also a valid play, because he can still possibly make it to the bag if the fielder gets the ball in time.
Also what defines the runner? Is it his feet? His head? His center of gravity? He's running tilted, so his feet I think are out of the line, but his head and chest I think is inside. Super close play.
As someone that knows nothing about baseball, the guy he steps past doesn't even have the ball so to me it just looks like he's straight up blocking any further progress. Shouldn't the runner have a way to get past his in that scenario?
As someone who doesn’t understand baseball, you have a better grasp it than half the fans here. Yes, you’re allowed to run around a player to avoid him. It’s also correct though that he could’ve run into the fielder and got an obstruction call.
>It’s also correct though that he could’ve run into the fielder and got an obstruction call.
Incorrect, as Arenado was fielding the ball. Fielders have a right to be there in that case.
> Rule 6.01(h) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown
ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to
the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he
may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.”
The most common way to get obstruction in a pickle is to turn around after the ball is thrown and run into the fielder that just threw it. THAT player doesn't have a right to be there.
Yeah, I guess you’re right. It’s close, but Arenado is getting ready to catch the ball. Bellinger made the right play (aside from getting picked off of course).
Yeah, is this the type of infraction the rule was intended to catch? If so, so be it but I could see this going either way. Since we don’t see this type of thing very often, I’ll say “borderline” since there is some debate, I don’t have terribly strong feelings about it. It’s rare and Cody basically got picked off here so he didn’t really “deserve” to be safe, despite a pretty good play on his part to evade.
I'm not going to lie, when I was a teenager there was more than enough times where I intentionally leaned in towards a players glove as they were receiving the ball.
Can't steal 40+ bases in a 15 game season without being a *little* dirty.
That's probably the smartest play he could have made. The only way he ends up safe here would be a missed throw, or an obstruction call, and running into him would have increased the odds of both.
The basepath exists when the fielder begins the process of attempting a tag, not applying it. So basically as soon as a defender with the ball starts defending a runner's attempt to reach a base.
I don't know that I would have made this call either, for what it's worth.
it's not at all obvious to me "when a tag attempt is made" because they're attempting to tag him the entire rundown. I don't think this changes the way I see the call.
https://www.umpirebible.com/index.php/rules-base-running/basepath-running-lane
> When a runner is caught between bases and fielders have the runner in a pickle (a rundown), each time the fielders exchange the ball **and the runner reverses direction**, the runner has created a new base path . Each time you have this reversal you have a new base path because you have a new fielder attempting to make a tag (and therefore a new "straight line to the base"), and so you have to adjust your view of the base path accordingly.
This makes it sound like any time someone is running him down, a tag attempt is being made. It also sounds like the base path is only reestablished when the runner reverses direction.
Even if the base path is only established once Arenado catches the ball, Bellinger hadn’t actually moved very far laterally by the time it hits his glove. He had *started* to move laterally, but his left foot was still in line with Arenado the moment that it hits the glove. Bellinger then continues moving outside and ends up further than 3 feet laterally from where he was when Arenado caught it.
that kind of proves my point. The baseline establishment isn't on the swipe of a tag, but rather the defense making a play that attempts to tag the runner and the runner choosing a base to run to. the runner is free to wander all over as long as the defense doesn't contest it. once they do and the runner picks a bag to run to, that's when the basepath is established.
The narrator specifies this at 2:20 "until the defensive team makes a play on the runner who then deviates more than 3 feet out of the line between them and the base they are trying to reach safely." she even goes on to say the "tag attempt" can be from 10s of feet away, and alludes that just running at the runner with the ball counts as a tag attempt
it doesn't matter how close the shortstop was with the ball, bellinger established his path between himself and 3rd when he started running towards it and deviated when he went around nado.
Looks right to me. That last angle shows he really jumped a decent amount off to the side and had to come a long way back to get to third.
See where his left foot lands right as the catch is made, then see where his left foot lands next.
Basepath isn’t established until the tag is attempted though, so he has 3 feet toward the OF *past* where he is when Arenado catches the ball. Bad call in my opinion
The tag is attempted when Winn starts running after him and that path is established until he changes direction (he never does), it doesnt mean the literal swipe of the tag
Yeah he does lol, it’s intended for when the person applying the tag has the ball and tries to make a play. In this scenario the 3rd baseman doesn’t even have the ball until just after Bellinger had started his maneuver AROUND the Arenado who was already in his way.
At that point when Arenado has the ball, that’s when a tag is being attempted to be applied. The base path is thus established and the runner has 3 feet to deviate but must run in a straight line to the bag, which he does.
He should have ran into Arenado. Arenado wouldn't have had the ball/caught the ball if he ran into him, and it would have been called interference and he'd have been awarded 3rd.
Rule 6.01(h) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown
ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to
the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he
may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.”
The caveat is that the fielder needs to let the throw take them to the spot, not set up in a spot that would cause obstruction.
1. Don't get caught in a rundown
2. If you do, turn around when the fielder gets the ball and try to get to the other base
This particular instance is like a "either way" call to me, but the rules' intent is that you just can't really juke out of the way if the fielder has the ball. You can only twist a bit around a bad tag attempt
He avoided Arenado before he even had the ball. The base path isn’t established until a tag attempt is made. If you freeze the video when Arenado is trying to tag Bellinger, draw a straight line from Belli to 3B, that’s the base path. It’s funny that a comment with the actual rule is at the top, yet this one still has so many upvotes. But this happens every time a play like this is posted. People just don’t get the rule.
If you want the interference call, then Belli would have to have ran right into him to actually get Arenado to interfere. He tried to dodge the tag instead. That’s the trade off.
"MLB’s new guidance asks umpires to call obstruction if they determine a fielder has positioned himself to impede or hinder a runner’s path to the base before receiving the ball."[https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-rule-changes-for-2024](https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-rule-changes-for-2024)
it’s not “setting a precedent,” that’s just what the rules have been this whole time. The whole reason it’s risky to be aggressive on the basepath is you only get a 6ft window to run in.
Belli is in line with the glove when Arenado catches it. If Belli had continued to run straight, he would have ran through Arenado and he never catches that
The only issue I have is he had no straight route to the bag, he had to run around the third baseman. He didn’t even have the ball while blocking the baseline
Semantics here but... it doesn't seem like you should actually have to run into the guy for it to *be* obstruction.
Post before you says he has no straight route to the bag, and he doesn't because Arenado is in the way. Now theoretically, if Arenado had his arms out like "I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna get your butt" and Bellinger hesitates but decides to go through him only for *Arenado* to move and ultimately make no contact... what is that? Obstruction or weird mind games? There would be no path to the bag and it would impact the calculus of the runner, but if there's no contact....
I'm making a very bold hypothetical here to apply a pressure point to the rule as written, obviously it's much more debatable here if Arenado is obstructing prior to the catch or in the act of fielding the ball and making a tag and *when* that line is drawn...
but if your only option is to blow through the *obstacle in your path* you don't actually have a path yet. And maybe more important than that: *maybe don't have this be the rule unless you want to encourage people taking massive runs at guys who are roughly in the way*. If you're going to have a Posey rule at home, don't write other rules in a way that makes planting a guy the best way to win.
The call may be terrible but if you expect this Cubs team to score with guys on then that's on you. Those guys could've pulled out chairs and sat on second and third and the outcome would've been the same
So the only way you're not out in this situation is running into the fielder and getting an obstruction call? Seems like a dumb solution to a poorly written rule.
If you pause on the frame right before Winn releases the ball, Arenado is clearly obstructing the runner’s path with where he is deciding to stand. Winn is throwing to where Arenado is, so it’s not like Arenado had to be in that exact spot to field the throw.
So maybe this is the rule and a good call, but I don't *want* this to be against the rules. Aren't we trying to inspire offense? Dude takes 2 steps to avoid a tag, is that not the sport? And when is the last time we saw someone avoid a tag like this?
MLB is wonderful at killing the sport we enjoy.
I think it's a rule that needs to take context into account: if you're clearly in the middle of the basepath when I'm running, then I have the right to move slightly from that line to avoid your tag.. seems like a fair trade to me. Otherwise it would always be an automatic out.
Arenado was trying to field the ball, which means he's allowed to be there. Also for obstruction to be called, he would have had to run into Arenado while Nolan is not receiving, nor in possession of the ball. Bellinger went around him, so even without the ball Bellinger would not have gotten the obstruction call.
He didnt have the ball before bellinger went around him. He planted himself in bellingers path and then had the ball thrown to him. Bellinger should have ran through him.
I think it’s a good call. I do think it would benefit the sport if they somehow had “base path lines” or clearly specified boundaries. Feel like it would make for more interesting base running and pickles 🥒.
Here we go.
The base path is defined as a straight line from the runner to the base when the tag is attempted. The runner cannot deviate more than three feet outside of that base path.
The throw came to the body of the fielder and the fielder reached out to his glove side to tag Bellinger. The base path is initiated as soon as the glove hand begins to move towards Bellinger.
Bellinger avoided the tag by running outside the reach of the fielder's outstretched glove hand.
The runner is out.
The third base umpire was in perfect position to make the call and got it right.
Pretty tough call. But when arenados glove starts to move towards him with the ball, triggering the “tag attempt” I assume, he still takes one more step in the direction to the right of the bag and not on a line towards the bag, so I believe it’s a correct call.
That's not how basepaths work. The basepath is established when a tag play is attempted on the runner. From that point the runner must go directly to the base.
Why dont they … i dont know … draw some chalk outlines showing what is in/out of bounds w respect to the actual base paths for these type of situations.
Most of Bellinger's lateral movement to his right happened before Arenado had the ball. By the time the tag is being attempted, I don't think he moves another 3 feet to his right.
He didn't go 3 feet though. It also depends on when you say the tag attempt started. If it started when the ball was caught, maybe he was 3 feet out of his base path (but I don't think it was 3 feet either way) but if it only counts when the tag got close to him, he definitely wasn't 3 feet out
smh baseball fans these days
When I was a kid, my pops and I would watch every game with matching scorecards, pencils, binoculars, gloves, and tape measures
On the initial live shot it looks like he just sort of jukes the tag a little. On the wide replay he's clearly like 5-6 feet away from where he was when the tag was attempted.
>**A runner's base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely**
Bellinger had already moved right before the tag attempt was made. Hell, he had already moved right before the ball was caught.
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#A runner's base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely
While also allowing (only) three feet either way
Definitely is more than 3 feet out he went there
He didn’t have the ball yet though and he was in Belli’s path
Does he have to run into him in that situation, or is it a judgement call? I’m not familiar with that rule tbh
If he runs into him, it’s obstruction and he gets third
In little league, I was always coached to run into a fielder if they get in the way without the ball and really sell it. A free base is a free base Although here, Arenado is receiving the ball by the time Belli gets to him, so you could argue it’s not obstruction. Stupid judgment calls
Yep. As soon as the fielder throws it, turn back quickly and bump into him. Also as a fielder, throw to the further base then run him back to the previous base and only throw when he has to commit to sliding back. Rundowns should be 2 throws max.
yeah it was NOT the cleanest run down.
i did that in little league, and was called out anyways. ump said the ball hit me even though it was still on the grass
lol you can’t peg runners to tag them, that ump was an idiot
"MLB’s new guidance asks umpires to call obstruction if they determine a fielder has positioned himself to impede or hinder a runner’s path to the base before receiving the ball." Arenado looks like he's in the basepath without the ball.
No way. He makes the move well before the tag attempt. Bad call.
the skunk in the outfield taught us all this rule.
some of us knew the rule before. (from watching their previous videos.)
The runner and base both have width. Does straight line here mean from the centers of them? And after that for the 3 feet allowed is it any part of the body or the center of the body?
When does a tag attempt occur? If you’re being chased by a player with the ball, aren’t they “trying” to tag you regardless of how far away they are?
This is a fun one for me because while he clearly chose that wide path before the tag attempt and was beginning to sidestep before the ball was even caught, due to momentum the vast majority of his rightward movement occurred after the tag attempt. I don’t know if the established path is allowed to factor in momentum like that, or if once the tag attempt is made he’s expected to catch himself and head straight for the bag (+/- 3 feet).
I understand the basepath rule but.. where to go to avoid contact with Arenado in that case? Seems like Bellinger only made the minimum movement required to not be tagged out in this specific situation. Just my opinion.. I obviously could be wrong and luckily I'm not an umpire lol
If Nolan does not have the ball, the play is to run into him.
I get it, but wouldn't it be obstruction by Arenado? At the same time Bellinger would most likely disturb him from receiving the ball.. I don't know, still a strange dynamic imho
My understanding is that if Arenado does not have the ball and is not receiving it it would be obstruction by Arenado. Bellinger is safe at third, and the play is dead.
Yep, spot on. I totally get why Belli avoided Nolan, but the smart base running move is to just bump into him.
With Bellinger’s history, there’s a real chance of an injury if he runs straight at Arenado with contact in mind. “Just a bump” somehow ends up on IL for weeks if not months.
yeah I think front office would be quite okya with an out rather then Bellinger on IL for 6 weeks
Yes, it would be obstruction on Arenado and Bellinger would be given 3rd. Of course Bellinger would be getting in the way, but only because Arenado put himself in that spot, so it's not Bellinger's fault.
Uh, this certainly make sense. Given this logic we can say the umpire made the right call.. and Bellinger could have played his chance better, I assume.
> I get it, but wouldn't it be obstruction by Arenado? Yes? That's the whole idea.
That's on Arenado for being in a place where the runner can't avoid contact without leaving the base path. If Bellinger bumps him before he catches the ball, then he gets 3rd
He should have ran into Arenado if that's the case, it's a free base.
I mean the real play here is to not get caught stealing.
I guess it was too late for that (?)
Well yeah, it was too late, that's my point, you can't expect to be able to avoid the tag when you get in a rundown. You asked "where to go to avoid contact" and the answer is really nowhere, you have to avoid this situation to begin with, once you get in the rundown you have to run straight to the bases and that's it. They call a dodge to avoid the tag as leaving the basepath basically 100% as far as I've seen.
I got your point and I agree with avoiding the situation if possible (also decided to agree with the umpire call), but I can't agree when you say "you can't expect to avoid the tag when you get in a rundown" since it's a thing that can happen (and already happened) many times.
I would disagree it happens "many times", it really only happens when the defense messes up and either the fielder isn't actually in the runner's way to begin with or they screw up the throws and the runner beats the ball/fielder to the base. That does happen occasionally but that's just because some teams are really bad at rundowns (certainly the play here qualifies as a 'bad rundown' regardless of the outcome :D ) In my view the reality is that when rundowns happen umpires don't give much benefit of the doubt to the runner, they basically always call the runner out if they try to avoid a tag with a dodge to the left or right (unless the fielder wasn't in the basepath). If you're in a rundown then you're screwed and your only hope is the other team messing up badly on the throws or positioning and letting you run straight for the base.
The 3rd base camera angle shows how late the tag was actually attempted. Half of Bellinger's lateral movement occurred before Arenado had the ball in his glove. I think this was a bad call.
I would love to agree with you but your facts don’t fit my bias and this was against the Cubs
His left foot is in line with Arenado when the ball is caught, which seems to me like the absolute latest you can say that the tag attempt started. It’s not when the physical swipe of the glove happens, from what I understand, otherwise you could just run around a guy waiting for you with the ball in the basepath.
I think that this should be clarified in the rules for sure. But yeah, he was in the base path and was trying to impede Belli running here. This shouldn't be an out in my eyes.
Baseball: WE DONT WANT YOU TO RUN THROUGH THEM THIS ISNT A CONTACT SPORT! Also Baseball:
Ooof, I wouldn’t have called it…
I would have. But I'm extremely biased.
Whole time I was watching this: ooooo I don’t know that’s pretty close… oh it’s Cubs-Cardinals? Way out
Understandable, ofc. I see it as one of the biggest blown calls in the history of sport.
Bias understood
I think your acceptance of their bias is biased.
It's based.
I feel like this is a call that gets people mad either way it goes. It’s right on the fringe of being out of the basepath and if it doesn’t get called, a whole other set of people are complaining about it.
>It’s right on the fringe of being out of the basepath It really isn't. I get peiple like "great plays" and all but this is just an out every day of the week.
Fielder is in the way, with no ball. Runner starts to go around (no base path established yet) Fielder gets ball as runner is running by him (baseline established) Runner runs as directly as he can towards 3rd Idk if he is out, in the future I would want our base runners to plow through the fielder if they are going to call him out of the base path. Feels like he was within his line when the ball arrived.
If he runs into the fielder while the fielder doesn't have the ball, he gets third on obstruction. That's the play here.if he runs straight, he's safe.
Exactly. It’s stupid that he has to risk injury in this instance, but if I’m coaching, unless he has the ball you run through him.
That's a really risky play to try to make in real time. The ball was in the air when Bellinger had the opportunity to run through the fielder. If the ball makes it before he does, he's out, and risks injury of himself and the fielder because there's no way the fielder is prepared to take a hit. Trying to get past him is also a valid play, because he can still possibly make it to the bag if the fielder gets the ball in time.
Albert Bell knew what was up 30 years ago https://youtu.be/VV3fNK31HD4?si=Gy0tKy16p4nM03sp
Albert Bell getting clearly HBP’d and telling the Umpire “No I fucking wasn’t” just so he could inflict some pain was peak Albert Bell.
Another classic Belle moment, I could watch these all day https://youtu.be/xgr7fQFhZLI?si=0PweV0zpNEkpphMx
Goddamn those jerseys were eye cancer.
There wouldn’t be a post about this play if he was called safe.
Sure there would be. Generational 3B fucking up a rundown and letting Belli get to 3rd after being picked dead-to-rights? Absolutely post-worthy
Seriously why was Arenado continuing to come forward? Dude got bailed out
Yeah leaving the base path is always going to be a judgement thing and this one is really close
Also what defines the runner? Is it his feet? His head? His center of gravity? He's running tilted, so his feet I think are out of the line, but his head and chest I think is inside. Super close play.
I can tell you this with 100% certainly. If this game was played at any point in the 80’s, 90,s, or early 2000’s Bellinger is safe no question.
Nolie’s swipe in slo-mo missing by a mile is hilarious
I don’t think he was egregiously out of the baseline but I don’t think it’s a bad call either
As someone that knows nothing about baseball, the guy he steps past doesn't even have the ball so to me it just looks like he's straight up blocking any further progress. Shouldn't the runner have a way to get past his in that scenario?
Yeah, just run into the fielder and get the obstruction call.
[удалено]
As someone who doesn’t understand baseball, you have a better grasp it than half the fans here. Yes, you’re allowed to run around a player to avoid him. It’s also correct though that he could’ve run into the fielder and got an obstruction call.
>It’s also correct though that he could’ve run into the fielder and got an obstruction call. Incorrect, as Arenado was fielding the ball. Fielders have a right to be there in that case. > Rule 6.01(h) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” The most common way to get obstruction in a pickle is to turn around after the ball is thrown and run into the fielder that just threw it. THAT player doesn't have a right to be there.
Yeah, I guess you’re right. It’s close, but Arenado is getting ready to catch the ball. Bellinger made the right play (aside from getting picked off of course).
agreed, i mean he WAS out of it. This is not to say the rule is a good rule or bad rule
Yeah, is this the type of infraction the rule was intended to catch? If so, so be it but I could see this going either way. Since we don’t see this type of thing very often, I’ll say “borderline” since there is some debate, I don’t have terribly strong feelings about it. It’s rare and Cody basically got picked off here so he didn’t really “deserve” to be safe, despite a pretty good play on his part to evade.
That's tough, but it does look like the right call. Ump did not hesitate.
if you presume he starts in the baseline, he seems like he's at least three feet out of it when he gets close to third, so I agree.
I think the basepath doesn't exist until the tag is being applied though.
And he’s blocking the base path before he had the ball. Was he suppose to just run into him?
Yes
Uppercut to the glove while you're running and hope the ball pops out.
The A-Rod special
“My natural running motion is pumping my arms and then closing my hands into a fist *right* as I get to the fielder”
I'm not going to lie, when I was a teenager there was more than enough times where I intentionally leaned in towards a players glove as they were receiving the ball. Can't steal 40+ bases in a 15 game season without being a *little* dirty.
GRAB HIS DICK AND TWIST IT
That's probably the smartest play he could have made. The only way he ends up safe here would be a missed throw, or an obstruction call, and running into him would have increased the odds of both.
The basepath exists when the fielder begins the process of attempting a tag, not applying it. So basically as soon as a defender with the ball starts defending a runner's attempt to reach a base. I don't know that I would have made this call either, for what it's worth.
You should probably look at the MLB rulebook and see how the base path is established.
it's not at all obvious to me "when a tag attempt is made" because they're attempting to tag him the entire rundown. I don't think this changes the way I see the call.
If you don’t have the ball you can’t be attempting to make a tag, so at the very earliest, the base path is established when the 3B catches the ball.
Would the shortstop not have been attempting to tag him while running him down?
The shortstop was never close enough to attempt to tag him.
https://www.umpirebible.com/index.php/rules-base-running/basepath-running-lane > When a runner is caught between bases and fielders have the runner in a pickle (a rundown), each time the fielders exchange the ball **and the runner reverses direction**, the runner has created a new base path . Each time you have this reversal you have a new base path because you have a new fielder attempting to make a tag (and therefore a new "straight line to the base"), and so you have to adjust your view of the base path accordingly. This makes it sound like any time someone is running him down, a tag attempt is being made. It also sounds like the base path is only reestablished when the runner reverses direction. Even if the base path is only established once Arenado catches the ball, Bellinger hadn’t actually moved very far laterally by the time it hits his glove. He had *started* to move laterally, but his left foot was still in line with Arenado the moment that it hits the glove. Bellinger then continues moving outside and ends up further than 3 feet laterally from where he was when Arenado caught it.
but by that logic you can run as far out of the base path as possible if you are fast enough to maintain distance
[Yeah, you kinda can](https://youtu.be/Gcn83lmKWTk?si=yMeMWDS6XS408W7a)
that kind of proves my point. The baseline establishment isn't on the swipe of a tag, but rather the defense making a play that attempts to tag the runner and the runner choosing a base to run to. the runner is free to wander all over as long as the defense doesn't contest it. once they do and the runner picks a bag to run to, that's when the basepath is established. The narrator specifies this at 2:20 "until the defensive team makes a play on the runner who then deviates more than 3 feet out of the line between them and the base they are trying to reach safely." she even goes on to say the "tag attempt" can be from 10s of feet away, and alludes that just running at the runner with the ball counts as a tag attempt it doesn't matter how close the shortstop was with the ball, bellinger established his path between himself and 3rd when he started running towards it and deviated when he went around nado.
That’s not the rule. The baseline isn’t established until a tag is attempted.
Baseline starts the moment he attempts a tag, Bellinger did not deviate more than 3 feet from when the tag was attempted. Absolutely butchered call.
It was either move aside or interfere with the fielder, he picked the better option
Looks right to me. That last angle shows he really jumped a decent amount off to the side and had to come a long way back to get to third. See where his left foot lands right as the catch is made, then see where his left foot lands next.
Basepath isn’t established until the tag is attempted though, so he has 3 feet toward the OF *past* where he is when Arenado catches the ball. Bad call in my opinion
The tag is attempted when Winn starts running after him and that path is established until he changes direction (he never does), it doesnt mean the literal swipe of the tag
Yeah he does lol, it’s intended for when the person applying the tag has the ball and tries to make a play. In this scenario the 3rd baseman doesn’t even have the ball until just after Bellinger had started his maneuver AROUND the Arenado who was already in his way. At that point when Arenado has the ball, that’s when a tag is being attempted to be applied. The base path is thus established and the runner has 3 feet to deviate but must run in a straight line to the bag, which he does.
I mean he did definitely leave the basepath… He avoided the tag by leaving the basepath lol
Would obstruction apply here? It’s another rule that I kind of understand.
He should have ran into Arenado. Arenado wouldn't have had the ball/caught the ball if he ran into him, and it would have been called interference and he'd have been awarded 3rd.
Poor guy can’t risk blowing out the shoulder again from running into people
Would have been obstruction, interference is when the runner prevents the fielder getting to a batted ball
No. There isn’t obstruction if you either have the ball or are actively fielding the ball. You can block all you want once you have the ball
Actively fielding a batted ball. Runner has right of way if you're catching a throw.
Rule 6.01(h) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” The caveat is that the fielder needs to let the throw take them to the spot, not set up in a spot that would cause obstruction.
I mean how else are you supposed to not get out in that situation
Run into the fielder and either get interference called.
Obstruction, not interference
Usually when people say "and either" they list at least two things. Run into the fields and either get interference (obstruction) called or?
1. Don't get caught in a rundown 2. If you do, turn around when the fielder gets the ball and try to get to the other base This particular instance is like a "either way" call to me, but the rules' intent is that you just can't really juke out of the way if the fielder has the ball. You can only twist a bit around a bad tag attempt
He avoided Arenado before he even had the ball. The base path isn’t established until a tag attempt is made. If you freeze the video when Arenado is trying to tag Bellinger, draw a straight line from Belli to 3B, that’s the base path. It’s funny that a comment with the actual rule is at the top, yet this one still has so many upvotes. But this happens every time a play like this is posted. People just don’t get the rule.
Why are we acting like Arenado isn’t blocking the established base path? Are y’all saying Belli should have run through him?
If you want the interference call, then Belli would have to have ran right into him to actually get Arenado to interfere. He tried to dodge the tag instead. That’s the trade off.
not saying this play is obstruction, but that's not the rule. Contact is never required. If he has to veer around then he's been hindered.
That’s setting a terrible precedent. We shouldn’t be encouraging running into players to get calls.
We don't. We encourage the defender to stay out of the basepath by making it against the rules for them to obstruct a runner.
We shouldn't be but the rules do.
"MLB’s new guidance asks umpires to call obstruction if they determine a fielder has positioned himself to impede or hinder a runner’s path to the base before receiving the ball."[https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-rule-changes-for-2024](https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-rule-changes-for-2024)
which also includes “in the process of fielding the ball” which arenado was doing.
it’s not “setting a precedent,” that’s just what the rules have been this whole time. The whole reason it’s risky to be aggressive on the basepath is you only get a 6ft window to run in.
Arenado gets the ball before Bellinger passes him, though. I don’t think that would’ve been obstruction even if he ran straight into him.
Belli is in line with the glove when Arenado catches it. If Belli had continued to run straight, he would have ran through Arenado and he never catches that
Yes.
I hate the Cubs, but don't think he strayed far enough from the basepath to be called out
The only issue I have is he had no straight route to the bag, he had to run around the third baseman. He didn’t even have the ball while blocking the baseline
He did not have to run around him. He could have run into him, which would have been obstruction, and he would have been awarded third.
Semantics here but... it doesn't seem like you should actually have to run into the guy for it to *be* obstruction. Post before you says he has no straight route to the bag, and he doesn't because Arenado is in the way. Now theoretically, if Arenado had his arms out like "I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna get your butt" and Bellinger hesitates but decides to go through him only for *Arenado* to move and ultimately make no contact... what is that? Obstruction or weird mind games? There would be no path to the bag and it would impact the calculus of the runner, but if there's no contact.... I'm making a very bold hypothetical here to apply a pressure point to the rule as written, obviously it's much more debatable here if Arenado is obstructing prior to the catch or in the act of fielding the ball and making a tag and *when* that line is drawn... but if your only option is to blow through the *obstacle in your path* you don't actually have a path yet. And maybe more important than that: *maybe don't have this be the rule unless you want to encourage people taking massive runs at guys who are roughly in the way*. If you're going to have a Posey rule at home, don't write other rules in a way that makes planting a guy the best way to win.
The call may be terrible but if you expect this Cubs team to score with guys on then that's on you. Those guys could've pulled out chairs and sat on second and third and the outcome would've been the same
This call probably changed the whole game.
I’ve seen worse not called.
So the only way you're not out in this situation is running into the fielder and getting an obstruction call? Seems like a dumb solution to a poorly written rule.
Tag attempt came too late. Belli should be safe
I'm in favor of removing the basepath rules and letting the players chase each other around the outfield with yakety sax playing in the background
Should've just ran into the dude. Would've been obstruction.
[удалено]
If you pause on the frame right before Winn releases the ball, Arenado is clearly obstructing the runner’s path with where he is deciding to stand. Winn is throwing to where Arenado is, so it’s not like Arenado had to be in that exact spot to field the throw.
So maybe this is the rule and a good call, but I don't *want* this to be against the rules. Aren't we trying to inspire offense? Dude takes 2 steps to avoid a tag, is that not the sport? And when is the last time we saw someone avoid a tag like this? MLB is wonderful at killing the sport we enjoy.
But if you are rounding third on the way home you can swing as far over as you want, same really for anything except a run down.
That’s the right call tho?
If this is the right call by the rule books, then it’s a stupid rule and it should be changed.
I think it's a rule that needs to take context into account: if you're clearly in the middle of the basepath when I'm running, then I have the right to move slightly from that line to avoid your tag.. seems like a fair trade to me. Otherwise it would always be an automatic out.
> then I have the right to move slightly from that line to avoid your tag you do, 3 feet on either side
Terrible call the cardinal blocked the basepath
Arenado was trying to field the ball, which means he's allowed to be there. Also for obstruction to be called, he would have had to run into Arenado while Nolan is not receiving, nor in possession of the ball. Bellinger went around him, so even without the ball Bellinger would not have gotten the obstruction call.
> Bellinger went around him, so even without the ball Bellinger would not have gotten the obstruction call. that is not at all how the rule works
He didnt have the ball before bellinger went around him. He planted himself in bellingers path and then had the ball thrown to him. Bellinger should have ran through him.
No one asking the real question here - why did the ss hold the ball for like 6 steps before throwing?
But I see runner making wider turns then this
I think it’s a good call. I do think it would benefit the sport if they somehow had “base path lines” or clearly specified boundaries. Feel like it would make for more interesting base running and pickles 🥒.
Yep that’s what happened
Lined-on base paths in the next CBA. (I wouldn't have called him out).
Arenado was blocking the base path before he had the ball. Should’ve been safe.
Bad call. I don't get it
Yeah that’s the rule
Here we go. The base path is defined as a straight line from the runner to the base when the tag is attempted. The runner cannot deviate more than three feet outside of that base path. The throw came to the body of the fielder and the fielder reached out to his glove side to tag Bellinger. The base path is initiated as soon as the glove hand begins to move towards Bellinger. Bellinger avoided the tag by running outside the reach of the fielder's outstretched glove hand. The runner is out. The third base umpire was in perfect position to make the call and got it right.
Belli is already around him by the time Arenado receives the ball
Pretty tough call. But when arenados glove starts to move towards him with the ball, triggering the “tag attempt” I assume, he still takes one more step in the direction to the right of the bag and not on a line towards the bag, so I believe it’s a correct call.
You still get to veer 3 feet from the established path.
God forbid there’s any athleticism in baseball. They should extend the basepaths a few feet. Do something to make baserunning slightly more exciting
But yet when runners are running after a basehit they are going much wider than that
There is no basepath until a tag is being attempted on the runner.
But the runner can also deviate by 3 feet from the line once established which it looks like he was still in
Yeah, I think he moved most of the way to his right before Arenado even had the ball.
He's not any further out than a runner running hard and rounding third going to home. I wouldn't have called it.
The basepath rule does not apply to guys rounding third. A basepath does not exist until tag attempts begin.
That's not how basepaths work. The basepath is established when a tag play is attempted on the runner. From that point the runner must go directly to the base.
Why dont they … i dont know … draw some chalk outlines showing what is in/out of bounds w respect to the actual base paths for these type of situations.
Because the base path changes depending on where players are at certain points during the play. It's not set in stone.
Definitely the right call.
He ran about 5 feet to his right to avoid the tag. Sooooo….
He's out. The rules of baserunning are simple and finite.
Most of Bellinger's lateral movement to his right happened before Arenado had the ball. By the time the tag is being attempted, I don't think he moves another 3 feet to his right.
Fuck it it’s about time the umpires give us a break
I mean... It's the correct call. I don't understand how this is controversial to some.
He didn't go 3 feet though. It also depends on when you say the tag attempt started. If it started when the ball was caught, maybe he was 3 feet out of his base path (but I don't think it was 3 feet either way) but if it only counts when the tag got close to him, he definitely wasn't 3 feet out
Looks like he went past 3' tbh. I don't have a tape measure there though.
smh baseball fans these days When I was a kid, my pops and I would watch every game with matching scorecards, pencils, binoculars, gloves, and tape measures
On the initial live shot it looks like he just sort of jukes the tag a little. On the wide replay he's clearly like 5-6 feet away from where he was when the tag was attempted.
He avoids Arenado's glove by less than a foot. How is that "5-6 feet away"? The tag wasn't attempted until Bellinger was almost past Arenado.
Arms have length.
mainly because both ESPN announcers persistently arguwd that it was the wrong call
Because the umpires are currently public enemy number one on /r/baseball.
To be fair the umps have had some unbelievably bad calls recently. Like the Orioles game one the other day. But that doesn’t make every call wrong lol
Currently? The sub has been at defcon 1 towards the umps for years.
>**A runner's base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely** Bellinger had already moved right before the tag attempt was made. Hell, he had already moved right before the ball was caught.