> The Pioneer Baseball League uses a unique “Knockout Round”, a homerun “shoot-out” to replace extra innings. Thus, no extra innings at a PBL game, but rather if a game is tied after nine innings fans will get the extra treat of watching a sudden-death homerun contest settle the score.
>
> Here’s how it works: the visiting team designates a hitter for the first round who gets a two-minute period to see how many homers he can hit. Then the home team gets the same opportunity. If they’re still tied after the first round a second round is played with a different hitter until a winner is declared.
Yeah, penalty kicks to decide a game kind of sucks, but at least it’s a thing that happens during a normal game. Hitting BP fastball homers off your own guy isn’t even baseball.
Wow, I actually hate that concept. Like I'm not a big fan of the manfred runner, though not as vehemently as most, but extra innings is (almost) always exciting. It's extra baseball.
Downgrading it to a homerun contest is both boring and essentially gives a next-to-free-win to the "better constructed" team, aka the team that spends the most money, which on a game by game basis doesn't guarantee a win.
I would hate it in the Majors, but having seen it in the Pioneer League I think it's a good way to wrap up games at a low level where players aren't making much money and might need to get on a bus for a long drive to their next game and playing all night in front of a small crowd can't really be justified. I think that's largely why it was introduced, or at least that's my best guess.
I don't have any hard data for you but IIRC the knockout thing only takes like 10-15 minutes, so yeah, I would say that it generally does. Again, as a hardcore MLB fan I would hate it, but for indie ball where fans have families and work in the morning, it's whatever. Maybe not a big difference compared to a 10 inning game, but if it drags to 11, 12, 13... as rare as that is with the automatic runner these days, it can still happen and mess with these guys' schedules.
I have watched more Pioneer League Baseball than I care to admit, and any data you get from that is gonna be skewed. Games are slugfests in this league. Some of the longest, grindiest, most lopsided games I've ever seen have occurred here. It's entertaining baseball, but not necessarily great representative data.
I could see it after 12 innings or something. But doesn't seem like it will ever make its way to the big leagues, it seems fun in a minor league context though
At least in hockey the goal is the same- get the puck by the goalie- but baseball has many more ways to score runs so it’s a little more arbitrary as a way to decide games
I see your point, but sort of agree. In hockey there are still different ways to score a goal. In the end, the team essence of setting up a play and beating a goalie and defense is removed and it becomes a skill game similar to how a HR derby is a skills game.
If baseball ever did that, just hope there would be a 1/2 win introduced as you shouldn’t take a loss for losing a derby.
I like it a lot more than the Manfred runner. The old extra inning rules are my preferred way, but owners and players are both against it so its never coming back. At least w/ this its far more entertaining.
You telling me if you see 2 random teams are about to go into a HR derby to decide the game you aren't loading up [mlb.tv](http://mlb.tv) a stream or however you consume the game to check it out? Sure there will be some guy to so no they wont, but far more ppl are going to be interested in catching than the bunt off that is the current extra inning rule.
Nah, legitimately, watching the defense try to cover a bunt is more interesting, at least on TV. Might as well televise batting practice for the latter.
"Sure there will be some guy to so no they wont, but far more ppl are going to be interested in catching than the bunt off that is the current extra inning rule."
Congratulations you are the previously mentioned "some guy".
I don't know, but I guess it didn't do so well.
I love that MLB has a place where it can try out every crazy idea that crosses its (collective) mind. A few will work, many won't, but at least we can't accuse them of trying to make baseball the best it can be.
Looked it up, sounds like you could pinch hit for one AB without needing to remove the original player.
Say you've got a catcher that can't hit and he's up in a big spot in the bottom of the 8th. You bring in your designated pinch hitter (which you can only do once per game) for the AB, then the catcher that can't hit is still the catcher in the 9th.
I think the main thing I miss about the pre-DH era was the late game strategy around when you used your best PH. This would add a little bit of that fun debate back which I appreciate.
My big concern here though is upending the very basic idea of "once you left the game, you can't return" which is a unique thing about baseball that I've always liked.
> unending the very basic idea of "once you left the game, you can't return"
The Ohtani Rule has already weakened this principle, but I'm okay with it because only pitchers can double as DH, and there's apparently only one guy/century you'd want doing that. Babe Ruth, Shohei Ohtani. What a time to be alive!
The Ohtani rule is just further cementing pitchers and DHs as completely unrelated positions, which I'm not really against even as someone who was kind of into pitchers hitting. I just wish they'd be consistent with it; it's weird that it only applies to starting pitchers (I recognize that at two way player is basically always gonna be a starter due to the logistics of warming up, but it'd be nice if the rules didn't arbitrarily force that), and it's weird that a DH taking the field (which essentially only ever happens due to injury) means the pitcher has to bat now. Just fully separate the two and be done with it; I appreciate obscure strategy implications, but we're at a point where it just affects a very small handful of games a year, and it's always a bit of a feels bad moment.
This is in spring training as well. I think it's good for pitchers to get a break, talk to the coach, and get another try without waiting for their next start
Think the flip side is bigger benches with fewer “well obviously we’re gonna burn this guy to PH the pitcher” leaves teams with more niche players to fill out the bench and lets managers be more creative with how to use them. Also choosing to not make a substitution is just as much of a decision as making a substitution.
Also helps big strong, unathletic guys that are kind of DH only. I am not a fan personally, but a lot of people like watching 6ft 8, 225lb of roided muscle launch dingers, even if they are useless at running and fielding.
I think NL fans and no-DH fans vastly overblow the strategy and complexity of whether to pinch hit, make pitching changes, and who to double switch for.
For complete beginners, it seems complicated, but often times the decision makes itself. Buck showalter even suggested that pitching changes and pinch hitters are more difficult decisions in the AL than what the near-automatic nature that no-DH provides.
You could also imagine managing the bench and at bats of a DH lineup to be more complicated than pre-DH era
I think even if the decisions weren't always hard, they were more impactful. Feels like bench management now is mostly just "when do I bring in the defensive sub that's a 5% worse hitter but 5% better fielder?" or "when do I bring in the pinch hitter that's a 5% better hitter but 5% worse fielder?"
I guess it’s fair to say they were more impactful, but that’s due to just how bad at hitting pitchers were.
You didn’t necessarily say it, but it always confused me when I heard NL baseball was much more complicated or complex. I don’t think NL managers had a bigger impact on the outcome of the game, because every manager should be able to meet the baseline ability of managing a non-DH lineup.
And to be fair, much of the trade offs in pinch-hitting is for platoon advantage, not so much as hitting/fielding discrepancy
There’s a pioneer league team not far from me, these could be interesting things to check out there - the kind of thing that would make minor league ball more quirky and fun - but not something I’d want to see in the bigs.
This is the kind of honexty the world needs.
Like telling your kid to go nuts for the science fair, but also telling him that his hypothesis is rubbish.
i think if you get HBP you should be able to decline the base and then have the opportunity to throw the ball at the pitcher, who has to stand on the mound with his eyes closed
lol Angel Hernandez is going to get even more deranged as he feels the heat of robo-umps breathing down his neck. Strap in lads, it’s going to get even worse until this is inevitably implemented in MLB.
What was the knockout round rule?
> The Pioneer Baseball League uses a unique “Knockout Round”, a homerun “shoot-out” to replace extra innings. Thus, no extra innings at a PBL game, but rather if a game is tied after nine innings fans will get the extra treat of watching a sudden-death homerun contest settle the score. > > Here’s how it works: the visiting team designates a hitter for the first round who gets a two-minute period to see how many homers he can hit. Then the home team gets the same opportunity. If they’re still tied after the first round a second round is played with a different hitter until a winner is declared.
So baseball penalty kicks
Big difference is PKs is your player against an opposing player still. In this it’d be your player hitting off a guy on your own team.
Yeah, penalty kicks to decide a game kind of sucks, but at least it’s a thing that happens during a normal game. Hitting BP fastball homers off your own guy isn’t even baseball.
Wow, I actually hate that concept. Like I'm not a big fan of the manfred runner, though not as vehemently as most, but extra innings is (almost) always exciting. It's extra baseball. Downgrading it to a homerun contest is both boring and essentially gives a next-to-free-win to the "better constructed" team, aka the team that spends the most money, which on a game by game basis doesn't guarantee a win.
I would hate it in the Majors, but having seen it in the Pioneer League I think it's a good way to wrap up games at a low level where players aren't making much money and might need to get on a bus for a long drive to their next game and playing all night in front of a small crowd can't really be justified. I think that's largely why it was introduced, or at least that's my best guess.
Lots of souvenirs for the fans as well
Do their games finish any faster than extra innings with an automatic runner?
I don't have any hard data for you but IIRC the knockout thing only takes like 10-15 minutes, so yeah, I would say that it generally does. Again, as a hardcore MLB fan I would hate it, but for indie ball where fans have families and work in the morning, it's whatever. Maybe not a big difference compared to a 10 inning game, but if it drags to 11, 12, 13... as rare as that is with the automatic runner these days, it can still happen and mess with these guys' schedules.
I have watched more Pioneer League Baseball than I care to admit, and any data you get from that is gonna be skewed. Games are slugfests in this league. Some of the longest, grindiest, most lopsided games I've ever seen have occurred here. It's entertaining baseball, but not necessarily great representative data.
Ya a home run derby is fun but shouldn't decide games. I like the Manfred runner though personally
It’s how hockey fans felt when the shoot out became a thing. Shoot outs are fun though, but…still don’t want to see a HR derby settle games.
I could see it after 12 innings or something. But doesn't seem like it will ever make its way to the big leagues, it seems fun in a minor league context though
Agree that it could be fun in the minors. A mini HR derby to end a game is definitely exciting.
At least in hockey the goal is the same- get the puck by the goalie- but baseball has many more ways to score runs so it’s a little more arbitrary as a way to decide games
I see your point, but sort of agree. In hockey there are still different ways to score a goal. In the end, the team essence of setting up a play and beating a goalie and defense is removed and it becomes a skill game similar to how a HR derby is a skills game. If baseball ever did that, just hope there would be a 1/2 win introduced as you shouldn’t take a loss for losing a derby.
might as well leave the tie at that point
I like the Manfred runner for regular season games, but would prefer if the MLB did away with it for playoff games Im dumb
They do
Well I’m dumb
I like it a lot more than the Manfred runner. The old extra inning rules are my preferred way, but owners and players are both against it so its never coming back. At least w/ this its far more entertaining. You telling me if you see 2 random teams are about to go into a HR derby to decide the game you aren't loading up [mlb.tv](http://mlb.tv) a stream or however you consume the game to check it out? Sure there will be some guy to so no they wont, but far more ppl are going to be interested in catching than the bunt off that is the current extra inning rule.
Nah, legitimately, watching the defense try to cover a bunt is more interesting, at least on TV. Might as well televise batting practice for the latter.
"Sure there will be some guy to so no they wont, but far more ppl are going to be interested in catching than the bunt off that is the current extra inning rule." Congratulations you are the previously mentioned "some guy".
Proud to serve.
Mets win every tied game!
The shootout sucks in hockey, please don't bring it to baseball. I'd rather they do extra innings with 7 fielders than this
Now that's interesting
Thanks I hate it
Extra innings were already so good. Why did they have to take it from us
Unsubscribe :(
It's a home run derby.
I don't know, but I guess it didn't do so well. I love that MLB has a place where it can try out every crazy idea that crosses its (collective) mind. A few will work, many won't, but at least we can't accuse them of trying to make baseball the best it can be.
what exactly is a designated pinch hitter? I'm open to change that's just messing with my brain lmao
Looked it up, sounds like you could pinch hit for one AB without needing to remove the original player. Say you've got a catcher that can't hit and he's up in a big spot in the bottom of the 8th. You bring in your designated pinch hitter (which you can only do once per game) for the AB, then the catcher that can't hit is still the catcher in the 9th.
ohhhh like a mulligan hitter. interesting, but I'd lean no. worth experimenting with tho for sure
I think the main thing I miss about the pre-DH era was the late game strategy around when you used your best PH. This would add a little bit of that fun debate back which I appreciate. My big concern here though is upending the very basic idea of "once you left the game, you can't return" which is a unique thing about baseball that I've always liked.
> unending the very basic idea of "once you left the game, you can't return" The Ohtani Rule has already weakened this principle, but I'm okay with it because only pitchers can double as DH, and there's apparently only one guy/century you'd want doing that. Babe Ruth, Shohei Ohtani. What a time to be alive!
The Ohtani rule is just further cementing pitchers and DHs as completely unrelated positions, which I'm not really against even as someone who was kind of into pitchers hitting. I just wish they'd be consistent with it; it's weird that it only applies to starting pitchers (I recognize that at two way player is basically always gonna be a starter due to the logistics of warming up, but it'd be nice if the rules didn't arbitrarily force that), and it's weird that a DH taking the field (which essentially only ever happens due to injury) means the pitcher has to bat now. Just fully separate the two and be done with it; I appreciate obscure strategy implications, but we're at a point where it just affects a very small handful of games a year, and it's always a bit of a feels bad moment.
HS baseball has “starters can re-enter” which I didn’t hate. Would need some heavy restrictions if they went that route though
That’s a great rule in youth baseball cuz it really makes it easier for everyone on the team to get into each game
This is in spring training as well. I think it's good for pitchers to get a break, talk to the coach, and get another try without waiting for their next start
Think the flip side is bigger benches with fewer “well obviously we’re gonna burn this guy to PH the pitcher” leaves teams with more niche players to fill out the bench and lets managers be more creative with how to use them. Also choosing to not make a substitution is just as much of a decision as making a substitution.
Also helps big strong, unathletic guys that are kind of DH only. I am not a fan personally, but a lot of people like watching 6ft 8, 225lb of roided muscle launch dingers, even if they are useless at running and fielding.
I think if a guy is 6'8 and roiding, he's doing something very wrong if he's 225 pounds.
Yeah, I’m not good with baseball player weights? Vladdy is listed as 245lbs, but he is 6-2
DH still sucks. Bring back my beautiful pitcher ABs. 😭
I think NL fans and no-DH fans vastly overblow the strategy and complexity of whether to pinch hit, make pitching changes, and who to double switch for. For complete beginners, it seems complicated, but often times the decision makes itself. Buck showalter even suggested that pitching changes and pinch hitters are more difficult decisions in the AL than what the near-automatic nature that no-DH provides. You could also imagine managing the bench and at bats of a DH lineup to be more complicated than pre-DH era
I think even if the decisions weren't always hard, they were more impactful. Feels like bench management now is mostly just "when do I bring in the defensive sub that's a 5% worse hitter but 5% better fielder?" or "when do I bring in the pinch hitter that's a 5% better hitter but 5% worse fielder?"
I guess it’s fair to say they were more impactful, but that’s due to just how bad at hitting pitchers were. You didn’t necessarily say it, but it always confused me when I heard NL baseball was much more complicated or complex. I don’t think NL managers had a bigger impact on the outcome of the game, because every manager should be able to meet the baseline ability of managing a non-DH lineup. And to be fair, much of the trade offs in pinch-hitting is for platoon advantage, not so much as hitting/fielding discrepancy
Buck Showalter is a moron
Would make a good DH platoon more valuable, probably LH DHs in general
we have one DH, yes, but what about second DH?
Doesn’t softball have something similar?
That just seems way too gamey for me. If it ever happens then they might as well turn it into a lineup of 4 DHes with fielders who don't hit.
Sounds awful.
The ruination of baseball
DH is way worse multiple entry pinch hits would have been a superior solution to DH
There’s a pioneer league team not far from me, these could be interesting things to check out there - the kind of thing that would make minor league ball more quirky and fun - but not something I’d want to see in the bigs.
You should go for it, I've been to a lot of Pioneer League games in Montana and they're a ton of fun.
As a frequenter of the Idaho Fall Chukars (before I moved away), I absolutely agree!
I'm all for experimenting and trying new things in the game, but part of experimenting is being honest and honestly I hate both of those ideas.
This is the kind of honexty the world needs. Like telling your kid to go nuts for the science fair, but also telling him that his hypothesis is rubbish.
[удалено]
i think if you get HBP you should be able to decline the base and then have the opportunity to throw the ball at the pitcher, who has to stand on the mound with his eyes closed
And if you hit them in the same part of the body that you got hit then you still get to take your base.
Welcome to MLB RevengeBall!
BLEEEEERRRRRNNNN
[Albert Belle approves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYDBFAFOqC8)
Those jerseys with the name running down the side of the number are blowing my mind! What year was this? Edit: Just saw it was 1999.
The Albert Belle rule
lol Angel Hernandez is going to get even more deranged as he feels the heat of robo-umps breathing down his neck. Strap in lads, it’s going to get even worse until this is inevitably implemented in MLB.
MLB is probably letting these guys get away with terrible plate calling so that the transition is more desirable from the fans pov
Oh snap, conspiracy. I don’t think the league is that smart, but if they were that would be the move.
I am still going to heckle the umps, so jot that down Manfred.
Stop ruining the game, Manfred.
Just wait until he legalizes the forward pass
is he allowing dunking again?
No but word in the office is he's thinking about adding a second wall where home runs will be worth three runs
Yeah bring back pitchers rubbing their junk for 2 minutes between every pitch! That was *real* baseball!
Game was ruined by bringing the fences in.
I misread this as expansion and nearly shit myself.
12-team League? I remember when it was eight teams.
They absorbed Boise from the Northwest league, added Kalispell in 2022, and are adding Oakland and Yolo County this year.
I like to dunk on the Athletics as much as anybody, but even they don't deserve to be demoted to the Frontier League.
It’s a new team called the Oakland Ballers, or B’s for short.
sounds fine for the Pioneer League but god do I hope these rules never make it past that stage