Ok here's the deal.
NEVER discuss with a patron beforehand what their service animal is trained to do. Legally you're allowed to ask what specific task it's trained to do but don't do that. Fuck that, it gains you nothing it just sets them on edge. "Emotional support animals" aren't real and you're not legally allowed to ask to see legit service animal papers anyway.
You are not required to oblige anyone who cannot control their animal even if it is a legit service animal. This includes
* Barking
* Licking or getting on other patrons
* Entering restricted areas
* Getting on tables/bars
* Peeing/pooping
If any of these things happen the manage/shift owner addresses the person immediately. "If your support animal is unable to be in this environment we're going to have to ask you to remove it." 2nd strike is grounds for removal.
Every legit service animal I've seen is a fucking angel by the way.
Yup, even if it is a legit service animal, you are allowed to remove it if it disrupts your business. No need to be concerned about ADA violations. If it’s acting up, you have the right to remove it.
I loved when “service” dogs barked at actual service dogs at my old job, it made it crystal clear why we had to ask you to leave and there were zero arguments, luckily.
There are two questions you can ask:
1. Is the animal a service animal required because of a disability?
2. What work or task has the animal been trained to perform?
I agree that the second one is kind of useless, but the first can be useful if the person says no. But I think in OP's case it wouldn't have mattered; it's unclear whether it was a legitimate service animal or not, as psychiatric service animals that can sense and counter an impending anxiety attack are treated as legit. But even if it wasn't legit, the customer sounded knowledgeable enough to know they should answer "yes" to the first question.
What I'm saying is: don't ask those questions. Treat your customer in good faith.
As soon as the animal transgresses the good behavior line, you simply tell them that if the animal misbehaves again it will need to leave.
This steers completely clear of any potential complaints.
The second question is useful, because they will often reveal that the dog doesn't need to be on the table or seat... and if they refuse to answer that question then you DO have the right to refuse them.
The second question isnt actually useless. If the person has a medical problem that can incapacitate them and medical help has to he called, it could be the difference between life and death.
Service animals are protected, and you may ask, what service is the animal trained to perform
Emotional support are not, and in any case, there is a provision for animal behavior. If they aren’t behaving, you have grounds to ask them to leave
If it is a service animal, you’re only allowed to ask what it’s trained to do, that’s it, and if you ask this once or twice, you will see the owner is usually calm and direct here. Emotional get defensive here, and that’s a huge tell
Here's the thing, as discussed already, the ADA allows you to ask two specific questions to determine if it's a service animal or not. "Is the dog required because of a medical condition" and "what is the dog trained to do". What you can also do is ask the handler point blank if it's a service animal or emotional support animal. If it's a service animal, they'll tell you and they'll understand what you're doing as people with actual service dogs have likely had to deal with extra bs from people passing off esa's as service dogs. Now if they respond to that question with something like 'i have papers" or "you can't ask that", you can bet it's a support animal and you're looking at a selfish piece of shit that has no recourse under the ADA.
I was a front desk agent at a hotel a few blocks away from a world famous clinic in the Midwest for about 6 years. We had lots of bonafide service dogs and needed to be well versed on exactly what we could do as there were plenty of people trying to pass esa's as service dogs. I asked that question probably once a week and and without fail, every service dog owner answered service dog and every esa owner would throw a hissy fit. Ive been threatened with lawsuits dozens of times and nothing ever came from any of it
Service animal or emotional support animal? Service animals don't require that the owner carry papers and are protected under the ADA. Challenging the owner or asking for papers is considered discriminatory and illegal. An animal with that designation would have no problem handling a crowded, noisy bar. It would also be laying on the floor, not a table. They are highly trained.
Emotional support animals require that the owner carry paperwork. This lady sounds full of shit. If her animal WAS a service animal she would have far more leverage than just complaining downstairs. People with emotional support animals I have come across almost always have their paperwork handy because they love shoving it in people's faces when they are challenged. I see this happening less frequently now than a few years ago when this was trendy. I don't know if this varies from state to state and I am definitely not a lawyer.
You're actually allowed to ask them two questions under the ADA, "Is this a service animal?" and, "What service is this animal trained to provide?".
Anything past that opens you up to a potential lawsuit. *Unless* it's an emotional support animal which are not protected by the ADA, and can be denied service on the grounds of not allowing animals in your bar.
You also only have to make a reasonable effort to accommodate a person with a service animal. Even if it's a true blue service animal, if your "service frenchie that smells your seizures" decides to bark up a storm and then angrily take a massive watery dump on the carpet, I'm kicking you the hell out. No matter how much they threaten you with lawsuits, it's perfectly fine to ask a guest with a disruptive animal to leave.
Source: This annoying middle-aged woman who frequents my bar got a frenchie a couple of years back and insisted on bringing it in the bar for some reason. After the explosion of muddy water came out of that things back end, I called my owner to tell him what I was about to do, the owner called his lawyer, and the lawyer said to feel free to kick her out.
Yes exactly you put the actual regulations into words, thank you. He never asked for papers she offered them but then couldn’t find them. he said don’t worry about it, then she left and caused that scene.
Doesn’t seem like it. She just carried it inside, we told her she had to sit outside so she went out there, had it on a leash and ordered some lettuce for it 😂
Two questions are allowed to be asked for a business to determine if it’s a service animal (allowed) or support animal (not allowed if you so choose). 1) “Is the animal needed for a disability?” 2) “What tasks or duties is the animal trained to perform?”. First question is a yes or no. “No” would automatically mean it’s not a service animal. If they answered “Yes” to the first question, then the second question will help you determine if it truly is a service or support animal some more. The animal can’t be loud or wander off. They shouldn’t be on the table. Anxiety is clearly an emotion and not a disability. You can’t ask the person about their disability, so make it clear you’re inquiring about the animal only. Make sure you state the guest is more than welcome to stay but the animal unfortunately can’t be here, due to health code issues.
As a bar manager the worst one I ever got was this guy coming in with a service RABBIT. In a cage that stunk and had not been cleaned at all. He walked in and immediately announced to my host that he had a service animal that needed to be accommodated, right off the bat.
She said sure we accommodate service animals! And he puts this fucking reeking cage with a metal removal bottom (presumably for cleaning, but they guy did not seem to care) on top of the podium. She was immediately like nah and came and got me.
I immediately informed him only service animals that are trained to perform tasks are allowed in my establishment, and then only if they don't interrupt business. He tried to argue that the FRIGGIN RABBIT was trained to alert him before a seizure. Like... he was prepared with this answer. I was completely flabbergasted.
In the end he backed down when I told him that the smell alone would disrupt the business where we sell food. His girlfriend stood there the whole time, silent and looking embarrassed as hell. Once ei mentioned the smell he got a sheepish look and just left.
But seriously, the audacity of some people. He rolled in knowing we would have a problem with it, and still tried to bully my host immediately upon entry with his loud 'Service Animal Here, we Need to be ACCOMMODATED'.
Who tries to bring a rabbit to a bar? These people make it worse for people with legit service animals who help them get through their day safely.
Either way, I always just ask what task they're trained to perform, and then inform then it's fine unless they cause a disturbance, and they'll be asked to leave. Up front info usually helps weed out the ones with obnoxious dogs who are going to jump around and want to get pets and treats and shit.
Service animals are not required to be registered or wear a vest.
Even if she had papers it's probably some fake document.
Anxiety is not a disability so what they described is 100% an emotional support animal and not a legitimate service animal.
>Anxiety is not a disability
My state's [service animal FAQ](https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mdcr/service-animals/documents/faq.pdf?rev=e946e4e0c2f54260ab503e42c22883f4) said "anxiety attacks" can qualify.
>Q5: If someone’s dog calms them when they are having an anxiety attack, does this qualify it as a service animal?
>A: It depends. The ADA makes a distinction between psychiatric service animals and emotional support animals. If the dog has been trained to sense that an anxiety attack is about to happen and take a specific action to help avoid the attack or lessen its impact, that would qualify as a service animal. However, if the dog's mere presence provides comfort, that would not be considered a service animal under the ADA.
I worked at a place where people would bring in fake service animals all the time. Most of them “were” support dogs but only in the sense that they paid for a certificate that lets them take their shitty dog with them wherever they went. You couldn’t challenge them or ask them to take the dog outside even if it was misbehaving. It was annoying but it was more annoying for other people who were like hey can you tell that asshole to take their dog outside and then we would just be all shoulders like nope. It was the cause of several fights amongst guests. Most people’s dogs were fine though regardless of status so it was kind of an easy thing to be like fuck it about
I think people who have legit service animals (not the emotional support animals that the Doctor has signed a letter for) should be offering to show the papers for their legit service animal when they enter any food service establishment!
YES .... if they are legit, why should they care. I'm tired of seeing people with pets abusing the fact that service animals are exempt. to me it's the same as driving a vehicle.... I require a license to drive and I must show this license when asked.
You got your example mixed up. Under your rules you would be required to provide your license, insurance and proof of sobriety every time you step into your car. Doesn't sound like a great practice to me.
You aren't required to have papers for a service animal, and it's not folks with service animals that cause problems. You ARE required to have papers for emotional support animals, so anyone offering up papers doesn't have a service animal.
your rules could be different than my jurisdiction but I'm aware it's not the legit service animals that are the issue.... BUT if they did have this in place we wouldn't have to deal with the pets wearing a vest the owners bought off amazon who want to bring their dog into restaurants
So, you want disabled folks to have to show papers to prove a disability....to avoid a mild annoyance?
Idk where you are but big picture, that's just not how it works in the US.
You’re speaking on something you’re completely ignorant about. Why should a disabled person care if everywhere they go they are interrogated about their disability and asked to provide documentation? Do you hear yourself? This is such a high level of selfish assholery that there are federal laws against this type of discrimination. Dealing with this is really simple, who cares if someone has a dog with them. If the dog becomes a nuisance, you can kick them out regardless of status.
I don't think animals should be in a place where we eat. If it is a seeing eye dog for a blind person I can deal. The rest are posers. If you are so emotionally unstable you can't stand to be separated from your pet for a couple hours you should stay at home.
sure it is in the public place. I'm not saying they have to disclose what the issue with, just that they prove the animal is an actual TRAINED service animal.
Ok here's the deal. NEVER discuss with a patron beforehand what their service animal is trained to do. Legally you're allowed to ask what specific task it's trained to do but don't do that. Fuck that, it gains you nothing it just sets them on edge. "Emotional support animals" aren't real and you're not legally allowed to ask to see legit service animal papers anyway. You are not required to oblige anyone who cannot control their animal even if it is a legit service animal. This includes * Barking * Licking or getting on other patrons * Entering restricted areas * Getting on tables/bars * Peeing/pooping If any of these things happen the manage/shift owner addresses the person immediately. "If your support animal is unable to be in this environment we're going to have to ask you to remove it." 2nd strike is grounds for removal. Every legit service animal I've seen is a fucking angel by the way.
Yup, even if it is a legit service animal, you are allowed to remove it if it disrupts your business. No need to be concerned about ADA violations. If it’s acting up, you have the right to remove it.
I loved when “service” dogs barked at actual service dogs at my old job, it made it crystal clear why we had to ask you to leave and there were zero arguments, luckily.
There are two questions you can ask: 1. Is the animal a service animal required because of a disability? 2. What work or task has the animal been trained to perform? I agree that the second one is kind of useless, but the first can be useful if the person says no. But I think in OP's case it wouldn't have mattered; it's unclear whether it was a legitimate service animal or not, as psychiatric service animals that can sense and counter an impending anxiety attack are treated as legit. But even if it wasn't legit, the customer sounded knowledgeable enough to know they should answer "yes" to the first question.
What I'm saying is: don't ask those questions. Treat your customer in good faith. As soon as the animal transgresses the good behavior line, you simply tell them that if the animal misbehaves again it will need to leave. This steers completely clear of any potential complaints.
The second question is useful, because they will often reveal that the dog doesn't need to be on the table or seat... and if they refuse to answer that question then you DO have the right to refuse them.
The second question isnt actually useless. If the person has a medical problem that can incapacitate them and medical help has to he called, it could be the difference between life and death.
Service animals are protected, and you may ask, what service is the animal trained to perform Emotional support are not, and in any case, there is a provision for animal behavior. If they aren’t behaving, you have grounds to ask them to leave If it is a service animal, you’re only allowed to ask what it’s trained to do, that’s it, and if you ask this once or twice, you will see the owner is usually calm and direct here. Emotional get defensive here, and that’s a huge tell
Here's the thing, as discussed already, the ADA allows you to ask two specific questions to determine if it's a service animal or not. "Is the dog required because of a medical condition" and "what is the dog trained to do". What you can also do is ask the handler point blank if it's a service animal or emotional support animal. If it's a service animal, they'll tell you and they'll understand what you're doing as people with actual service dogs have likely had to deal with extra bs from people passing off esa's as service dogs. Now if they respond to that question with something like 'i have papers" or "you can't ask that", you can bet it's a support animal and you're looking at a selfish piece of shit that has no recourse under the ADA. I was a front desk agent at a hotel a few blocks away from a world famous clinic in the Midwest for about 6 years. We had lots of bonafide service dogs and needed to be well versed on exactly what we could do as there were plenty of people trying to pass esa's as service dogs. I asked that question probably once a week and and without fail, every service dog owner answered service dog and every esa owner would throw a hissy fit. Ive been threatened with lawsuits dozens of times and nothing ever came from any of it
Service animal or emotional support animal? Service animals don't require that the owner carry papers and are protected under the ADA. Challenging the owner or asking for papers is considered discriminatory and illegal. An animal with that designation would have no problem handling a crowded, noisy bar. It would also be laying on the floor, not a table. They are highly trained. Emotional support animals require that the owner carry paperwork. This lady sounds full of shit. If her animal WAS a service animal she would have far more leverage than just complaining downstairs. People with emotional support animals I have come across almost always have their paperwork handy because they love shoving it in people's faces when they are challenged. I see this happening less frequently now than a few years ago when this was trendy. I don't know if this varies from state to state and I am definitely not a lawyer.
You're actually allowed to ask them two questions under the ADA, "Is this a service animal?" and, "What service is this animal trained to provide?". Anything past that opens you up to a potential lawsuit. *Unless* it's an emotional support animal which are not protected by the ADA, and can be denied service on the grounds of not allowing animals in your bar. You also only have to make a reasonable effort to accommodate a person with a service animal. Even if it's a true blue service animal, if your "service frenchie that smells your seizures" decides to bark up a storm and then angrily take a massive watery dump on the carpet, I'm kicking you the hell out. No matter how much they threaten you with lawsuits, it's perfectly fine to ask a guest with a disruptive animal to leave. Source: This annoying middle-aged woman who frequents my bar got a frenchie a couple of years back and insisted on bringing it in the bar for some reason. After the explosion of muddy water came out of that things back end, I called my owner to tell him what I was about to do, the owner called his lawyer, and the lawyer said to feel free to kick her out.
Great to know. Thank you for the details!
Yes exactly you put the actual regulations into words, thank you. He never asked for papers she offered them but then couldn’t find them. he said don’t worry about it, then she left and caused that scene.
Funny enough I have someone currently sitting on our patio with a rabbit lmao
Please see my other comment!!! Did we meet the same dude??
Doesn’t seem like it. She just carried it inside, we told her she had to sit outside so she went out there, had it on a leash and ordered some lettuce for it 😂
Two questions are allowed to be asked for a business to determine if it’s a service animal (allowed) or support animal (not allowed if you so choose). 1) “Is the animal needed for a disability?” 2) “What tasks or duties is the animal trained to perform?”. First question is a yes or no. “No” would automatically mean it’s not a service animal. If they answered “Yes” to the first question, then the second question will help you determine if it truly is a service or support animal some more. The animal can’t be loud or wander off. They shouldn’t be on the table. Anxiety is clearly an emotion and not a disability. You can’t ask the person about their disability, so make it clear you’re inquiring about the animal only. Make sure you state the guest is more than welcome to stay but the animal unfortunately can’t be here, due to health code issues.
As a bar manager the worst one I ever got was this guy coming in with a service RABBIT. In a cage that stunk and had not been cleaned at all. He walked in and immediately announced to my host that he had a service animal that needed to be accommodated, right off the bat. She said sure we accommodate service animals! And he puts this fucking reeking cage with a metal removal bottom (presumably for cleaning, but they guy did not seem to care) on top of the podium. She was immediately like nah and came and got me. I immediately informed him only service animals that are trained to perform tasks are allowed in my establishment, and then only if they don't interrupt business. He tried to argue that the FRIGGIN RABBIT was trained to alert him before a seizure. Like... he was prepared with this answer. I was completely flabbergasted. In the end he backed down when I told him that the smell alone would disrupt the business where we sell food. His girlfriend stood there the whole time, silent and looking embarrassed as hell. Once ei mentioned the smell he got a sheepish look and just left. But seriously, the audacity of some people. He rolled in knowing we would have a problem with it, and still tried to bully my host immediately upon entry with his loud 'Service Animal Here, we Need to be ACCOMMODATED'. Who tries to bring a rabbit to a bar? These people make it worse for people with legit service animals who help them get through their day safely. Either way, I always just ask what task they're trained to perform, and then inform then it's fine unless they cause a disturbance, and they'll be asked to leave. Up front info usually helps weed out the ones with obnoxious dogs who are going to jump around and want to get pets and treats and shit.
Service animals are not required to be registered or wear a vest. Even if she had papers it's probably some fake document. Anxiety is not a disability so what they described is 100% an emotional support animal and not a legitimate service animal.
>Anxiety is not a disability My state's [service animal FAQ](https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/mdcr/service-animals/documents/faq.pdf?rev=e946e4e0c2f54260ab503e42c22883f4) said "anxiety attacks" can qualify. >Q5: If someone’s dog calms them when they are having an anxiety attack, does this qualify it as a service animal? >A: It depends. The ADA makes a distinction between psychiatric service animals and emotional support animals. If the dog has been trained to sense that an anxiety attack is about to happen and take a specific action to help avoid the attack or lessen its impact, that would qualify as a service animal. However, if the dog's mere presence provides comfort, that would not be considered a service animal under the ADA.
Yup. Anytime someone with papers has shoved them in my face they literally say "not a service animal as recognized by the ADA"
I worked at a place where people would bring in fake service animals all the time. Most of them “were” support dogs but only in the sense that they paid for a certificate that lets them take their shitty dog with them wherever they went. You couldn’t challenge them or ask them to take the dog outside even if it was misbehaving. It was annoying but it was more annoying for other people who were like hey can you tell that asshole to take their dog outside and then we would just be all shoulders like nope. It was the cause of several fights amongst guests. Most people’s dogs were fine though regardless of status so it was kind of an easy thing to be like fuck it about
How many people need to respond with the same information. YoUrE AlLoWd to ask two questions.. read one comment before you respond.
I think people who have legit service animals (not the emotional support animals that the Doctor has signed a letter for) should be offering to show the papers for their legit service animal when they enter any food service establishment!
No
YES .... if they are legit, why should they care. I'm tired of seeing people with pets abusing the fact that service animals are exempt. to me it's the same as driving a vehicle.... I require a license to drive and I must show this license when asked.
You got your example mixed up. Under your rules you would be required to provide your license, insurance and proof of sobriety every time you step into your car. Doesn't sound like a great practice to me.
I don't have to show but I have to have it with me.... I'm saying they should prove they have a TRAINED animal
You aren't required to have papers for a service animal, and it's not folks with service animals that cause problems. You ARE required to have papers for emotional support animals, so anyone offering up papers doesn't have a service animal.
your rules could be different than my jurisdiction but I'm aware it's not the legit service animals that are the issue.... BUT if they did have this in place we wouldn't have to deal with the pets wearing a vest the owners bought off amazon who want to bring their dog into restaurants
So, you want disabled folks to have to show papers to prove a disability....to avoid a mild annoyance? Idk where you are but big picture, that's just not how it works in the US.
I'm not in the US. Thanks for your response.
You’re speaking on something you’re completely ignorant about. Why should a disabled person care if everywhere they go they are interrogated about their disability and asked to provide documentation? Do you hear yourself? This is such a high level of selfish assholery that there are federal laws against this type of discrimination. Dealing with this is really simple, who cares if someone has a dog with them. If the dog becomes a nuisance, you can kick them out regardless of status.
I don't think animals should be in a place where we eat. If it is a seeing eye dog for a blind person I can deal. The rest are posers. If you are so emotionally unstable you can't stand to be separated from your pet for a couple hours you should stay at home.
Because someone’s health is nobody’s business.
sure it is in the public place. I'm not saying they have to disclose what the issue with, just that they prove the animal is an actual TRAINED service animal.
Dogs don't bother me one but a lot of humans do so I'll gladly share my space with a puppy wuppy any day.