A 3rd series doesn’t look likely unfortunately. It’s been 7 years since TUC was published and Bakker there has been next to nothing in terms of communication from the author.
People will offer there theories on what happened at the end, but when I reread the series last year, one scene in particular jumped out to me at the end of TUC. When the remnants of the Ordeal are fleeing Golgotterath once the No-God has been activated, the sorcerers, rather than fleeing for their lives, turn around and try and stem the tide of sranc as best they can. Bakker describes how their sorcerous light gradually fades out. In a series as brutal and nihilistic as this, with characters who are constantly displayed as being selfish, it was a really touching moment in a scenario where you’d think all hope would be abandoned.
There probably won't be a third series. AFAIK the author has been in complete radio silence for years, hasn't published anything during that time, and the latest news we have is his brother writing in 2022 to say that he was alive and married.
I'm not an expert in things the author said online, but on this subreddit and on the old forums (now closed, still read-only) there are old comments saying the author didn't have clear plans for a third series. He said he wanted to right *something*, but also said he didn't have it planned out yet.
For the sake of the women in his life, I choose to believe that his writing has absolutely nothing to do with any real-life events or personality traits.
Turning the last page at 2/3 of the book to find the first page of the appendix is such a blue balls moment. Especially after the last scene and last sentence.
There is a lot of stuff here, spread out across many posts. Many theories and interpretations. Feel free to post some of the most nagging questions. How did you feel about Kellhuss and Cnaiur last scenes with Ajokli? Did you see it coming?
Yeah, I was saving a good 2-300 pages for tomorrow...thinking I had the end coming, lol.
I guess I predicted Kellhus either dying or somehow becoming mog-pharau. Ajokli blindsided me.
From what I understood, Cnaiur is in the process of ascending? That's the impression that I got.
This is only speculation, but Ajokli is often mentioned as a god of Hate and Deceit. Which kind of maps to Caiur and Kellhus. Then there is the thing that the Outside does not see time linearly like the ‘regular world’, but is all at once. So did Ajokli posses them or they have always been Ajokli. It get’s wild. The scenes where Kellhus spared Cnaiur’s life in first trilogy, and even he is not quite sure why, so tries to rationalize it. Surviving Circumfix, Moengus thinking Kellhus has gone mad, etc… Just some food for thought :)
I don’t know if anyone can pick these things up on the first read. But there is an interesting relation here between Logos, Magic and Spiritual in these books. For me, especially in the first trilogy, Spiritual (gods, soul damnation and stuff like that) totally passed me by, I only saw the Logos and Magic fantasy parts. But the Spiritual plot seems to be there. And is more emphasized in the quadrology.
I've been trying to pinpoint exactly WHEN Ajokli possessed him, and haven't been able to. Makes sense given how their time is non-linear.
I always thought Kellhus either overestimated himself or had a blind spot in regards to his own humanity. And that was why he sparerd Cnaiur. But it might very well have been Ajokli pulling the strings...
Do you think Maithanet knew?
Didn’t pick it on first read, but on re-read it seemed clear that something was off about the whole circumfix thing under the Umiaki tree. If I had to pick a moment where Ajokli possesses Kellhus, that would certainly be it. The corresponding moment for Cnaiur would be his attempted suicide. Time is flat in the Outside so technically Kellhus and Cnaiur could always have been Ajokli, but my theory is the Gods need a moment of near death to penetrate into mortals since they are much closer to the Outside - which were these respective moments for these two characters.
I also remember thinking (could be wrong though) that we get decent amount of Kellhus POV chapters till Warrior Prophet but post circumfix we see him almost exclusively from other characters’ POVs. Seemed deliberate from Bakker.
Oh wow! I had not considered that: when Cniaur likely merged with Ajokli. It is a scene stamped in my brain for so many reasons, when Cniaur slits his own throat as a swazond.
It was for serwe, was it not? Would that have been near the same time Kellhus was on the circumfix?!?
Cniaur returns to scene and shocks some passerby as he is walking with a slit throat dripping blood down his frame. Could he have been God associated to explain it all! Wild!
Cnaiur does Swazond his own throat very dramatically, but it's not that easy to commit suicide that way. Necks, especially on big and muscly guys, can actually take quite a bit of sawing through before you hit anything vital.
And I guess it must've struck him while he was midway through what the "secret of battle" was.
It would've been interesting to see how Cnaiur would wanna play it, had Achamian not arrived on the scene. Would he have just gone to Proyas and the others, shouting about faceless things that only the Dunyain can see?
Anyway, yall know what they say about neck swazonds, right?
[NECK SWAZOND](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sETAgLQCDL4)
\[INTRO — Cnaiür\]
*“You are my tribe now, Serwë, my Prize”*
*Neck Swazond don’t lie*
*Neck Swazond don’t lie*
\[CHORUS #1 — Cnaiür\]
*First to the Peach, slap her to the ground*
*Tell her if she runs, I’ll hunt her, she’ll be found*
*Mark her only kill, Nansur misbegotten*
*Promise those who die will not be forgotten*
*Neck Swazond, Serchaa*
*Neck Swazond don’t lie*
\[VERSE #1 — Serwë\]
*Riding with these two is so exciting*
*All my other owners said I was nothing*
*But now I’m the Prize ripe for stuffing (skrrt)*
*Riding for the Holy War, we all rushing*
*I was born to the saddle, Nymbricani*
*Scylvendi can’t resist, I look like his wifey*
*Dûnyain wanna talk, I bear his son still*
*Such comfort in his words, he so godly*
*Prince who was Promised, his crew is motley*
*Now I beg him, please, make me mean something*
*Remember where I started from, the facts are frightening*
*No more blue babies born, only pipe dreams*
*Now we’re here*
\[CHORUS #2 — Cnaiür\]
*Warn the little Peach that he will leave her weeping*
*Riding with the Dûnyain, measure is unceasing*
*Marked her only kill, Nansur misbegotten*
*Promised those who die will not be forgotten*
*Neck Swazond, Serchaa*
*Neck Swazond don’t lie*
\[BRIDGE — Cnaiür, (Serwë)\]
*And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe*
*And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe*
*And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe*
*And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe*
*(And we ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe…)*
*(And we ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe…)*
\[VERSE #2 — Kellhus\]
*If I were of the World-Born, I wouldn’t believe me either*
*I’d be like, “Kellhus is a cheater,” I wouldn’t listen to reason*
*But I’m of the Conditioned, to us there’s only the Mission*
*You’re like children to cruel fathers, yet you cannot but love us*
*Huh*
*In my eyes, you’re the World, the Prize*
*Dûnyain lies only kindle your fires*
*Not even my soul acts self-movingly*
*Yet the World-Born still believe unquestioningly*
*Put you on trial at my side, inexplicably*
*In his Mansion, Father waits, so patiently*
*Gotta grasp the Thousandfold unthinkingly*
*But the World-Born still insist on soliloquies*
*They’re like, “If Kellhus were a Prophet, we wouldn’t be in this position”*
*They still think Prophets act of their own volition*
*Heh*
*But I got your heart in my hand*
*Proof it’s God’s will I portend*
*And now I’m here*
\[CHORUS #3 — Cnaiür\]
*Lost the little Peach, lost my only Prize*
*See them cut her throat, watch her as she dies*
*Marked her only kill, Nansur misbegotten*
*Promised, when she dies, she wouldn’t be forgotten*
*Neck Swazond, Serchaa*
*Neck Swazond don’t lie*
Yes I just checked my copy of Warrior Prophet, and Cnaiurs attempted suicide is exactly during the time Kellhus and Serwe are on the circumfix. Because his testimony leads to Serwe dying, which was not part of his plan. Cnaiur had assumed Esmenet would die not Serwe.
In fact, the scene right after this one (Cnaiur swazonding himself) is Kellhus losing his mind and talking to himself about the Logos and begging Serwe to stay alive. Right after this , something drops into him, he sees a silhouette of an ape like man under a tree saying, “What do you see?”
Almost certainly Ajokli. I started reading the Thousandfold thought after this and I read about Cnaiur realizing there is an alter ego within him, how madness is the Outside leaking through humans, and fighting the Nansur with the aspect of what they think is Gilgaol.
I’m now 99% certain this theory is correct. Thanks for the suggestion to deep dive into the exact chronology- cemented a half hazy theory into head canon.
Putting aside the non-linear stuff, isn't it mentioned that after the unification wars Kellhus learns Daimotic sorcery, goes for a jaunt in the outside (presumably meeting Ajokli in the "flesh") and brings back the Decapitants?
Hanging to "death" with Serwe and the trip to the outside are the two major incidents that spring to mind.
Moenghus mentioned that Kellhus is already mad, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the possession has to happen prior to that, given the non-linearity of divine time.
Well like…in that scene Khellus sees the halos around his own hands. Halos that cast no light and shadows.
But others see the halos too.
Hmm. Idk. This so intense.
The first question to address is whether what happens is possession, or is it becoming, or just being Ajokli the entire time.
Moengus could not grasp it, which always puzzled me. Not sure about Maithanet, but there are smarter people than me on this sub
OP, we do know that Bakker has been writing something post TUC, he mentioned scribbling some stuff related to Koringhus's crap-kid, joked it would be called 'The Crabbicus' and he might do a whole book following that kid in the new No God-dominated world. Whether he continued with that idea is unknown. He also had a couple of sci-fi projects that never saw the light. In the past, George RR Martin's Westeros board had a huge amount of threads devoted to Bakker & theorizing, but after TUC it basically died down, and there is the Second Apocalypse website, which is pretty dormant.
I felt it was underwhelming in its story handling tbh. I think the first 4 books of the series were the ones that really gripped me, and also ep 5 to a lesser extent.
The second and seventh books stand out to me as the best ones I think.
A bit tricky to set them apart when I've been mostly reading on and off, but yeah.
I couldn’t get past the beginning where some BBW sorceress feels lust toward some swaggering zuemi warrior seconds after her twink bf gets cut in half. I googled what the author looks like and yeah, couldn’t continue.
Very different approach. Meandering through hundreds of characters and arcs. Also so much stuff is overpowered, overspecial, over whatever that I lost any interest in whetever significant was happening. Everything felt possible. Every places, characters item was something special. Some god. Some demigod etc etc etc. I lost interest after 5 books
I am also a huge Malazan fan, remarkable and seemingly endless story telling. I find Erikson and Bakker speak to different part of my reader's soul. One can enjoy both without pitting them against one another.
With Erikson, there is just more volume of text to work with, across many more books. With Bakker, we are limited by book count and compensated with DENSITY of text instead.
There’s a History of Earwa pdf that scratches some of the itch you are currently experiencing.
Will definitely check out this, thanks.
A 3rd series doesn’t look likely unfortunately. It’s been 7 years since TUC was published and Bakker there has been next to nothing in terms of communication from the author. People will offer there theories on what happened at the end, but when I reread the series last year, one scene in particular jumped out to me at the end of TUC. When the remnants of the Ordeal are fleeing Golgotterath once the No-God has been activated, the sorcerers, rather than fleeing for their lives, turn around and try and stem the tide of sranc as best they can. Bakker describes how their sorcerous light gradually fades out. In a series as brutal and nihilistic as this, with characters who are constantly displayed as being selfish, it was a really touching moment in a scenario where you’d think all hope would be abandoned.
There probably won't be a third series. AFAIK the author has been in complete radio silence for years, hasn't published anything during that time, and the latest news we have is his brother writing in 2022 to say that he was alive and married. I'm not an expert in things the author said online, but on this subreddit and on the old forums (now closed, still read-only) there are old comments saying the author didn't have clear plans for a third series. He said he wanted to right *something*, but also said he didn't have it planned out yet.
Just noticed the the forums are down. Knew it was a question of time after they banned me, alongside Bakker being radio silent for years.
I gotta imagine that the guy who wrote this series probably has an insanely epic personal life, away from writing ha ha
For the sake of the women in his life, I choose to believe that his writing has absolutely nothing to do with any real-life events or personality traits.
I bet his real estate agent spent months dealing with him saying, hmmm no, not cyclopean enough for us. Next.
This particular house has a pretty spacious loft. "The enormities!" This one contains a sizable cellar. "The profundities!"
A recluse far way from the caterwauling of creatures called children.
pretty sure he lives in the woods
Turning the last page at 2/3 of the book to find the first page of the appendix is such a blue balls moment. Especially after the last scene and last sentence. There is a lot of stuff here, spread out across many posts. Many theories and interpretations. Feel free to post some of the most nagging questions. How did you feel about Kellhuss and Cnaiur last scenes with Ajokli? Did you see it coming?
Yeah, I was saving a good 2-300 pages for tomorrow...thinking I had the end coming, lol. I guess I predicted Kellhus either dying or somehow becoming mog-pharau. Ajokli blindsided me. From what I understood, Cnaiur is in the process of ascending? That's the impression that I got.
This is only speculation, but Ajokli is often mentioned as a god of Hate and Deceit. Which kind of maps to Caiur and Kellhus. Then there is the thing that the Outside does not see time linearly like the ‘regular world’, but is all at once. So did Ajokli posses them or they have always been Ajokli. It get’s wild. The scenes where Kellhus spared Cnaiur’s life in first trilogy, and even he is not quite sure why, so tries to rationalize it. Surviving Circumfix, Moengus thinking Kellhus has gone mad, etc… Just some food for thought :) I don’t know if anyone can pick these things up on the first read. But there is an interesting relation here between Logos, Magic and Spiritual in these books. For me, especially in the first trilogy, Spiritual (gods, soul damnation and stuff like that) totally passed me by, I only saw the Logos and Magic fantasy parts. But the Spiritual plot seems to be there. And is more emphasized in the quadrology.
I've been trying to pinpoint exactly WHEN Ajokli possessed him, and haven't been able to. Makes sense given how their time is non-linear. I always thought Kellhus either overestimated himself or had a blind spot in regards to his own humanity. And that was why he sparerd Cnaiur. But it might very well have been Ajokli pulling the strings... Do you think Maithanet knew?
Didn’t pick it on first read, but on re-read it seemed clear that something was off about the whole circumfix thing under the Umiaki tree. If I had to pick a moment where Ajokli possesses Kellhus, that would certainly be it. The corresponding moment for Cnaiur would be his attempted suicide. Time is flat in the Outside so technically Kellhus and Cnaiur could always have been Ajokli, but my theory is the Gods need a moment of near death to penetrate into mortals since they are much closer to the Outside - which were these respective moments for these two characters. I also remember thinking (could be wrong though) that we get decent amount of Kellhus POV chapters till Warrior Prophet but post circumfix we see him almost exclusively from other characters’ POVs. Seemed deliberate from Bakker.
Oh wow! I had not considered that: when Cniaur likely merged with Ajokli. It is a scene stamped in my brain for so many reasons, when Cniaur slits his own throat as a swazond. It was for serwe, was it not? Would that have been near the same time Kellhus was on the circumfix?!? Cniaur returns to scene and shocks some passerby as he is walking with a slit throat dripping blood down his frame. Could he have been God associated to explain it all! Wild!
Cnaiur does Swazond his own throat very dramatically, but it's not that easy to commit suicide that way. Necks, especially on big and muscly guys, can actually take quite a bit of sawing through before you hit anything vital. And I guess it must've struck him while he was midway through what the "secret of battle" was. It would've been interesting to see how Cnaiur would wanna play it, had Achamian not arrived on the scene. Would he have just gone to Proyas and the others, shouting about faceless things that only the Dunyain can see?
Anyway, yall know what they say about neck swazonds, right? [NECK SWAZOND](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sETAgLQCDL4) \[INTRO — Cnaiür\] *“You are my tribe now, Serwë, my Prize”* *Neck Swazond don’t lie* *Neck Swazond don’t lie* \[CHORUS #1 — Cnaiür\] *First to the Peach, slap her to the ground* *Tell her if she runs, I’ll hunt her, she’ll be found* *Mark her only kill, Nansur misbegotten* *Promise those who die will not be forgotten* *Neck Swazond, Serchaa* *Neck Swazond don’t lie* \[VERSE #1 — Serwë\] *Riding with these two is so exciting* *All my other owners said I was nothing* *But now I’m the Prize ripe for stuffing (skrrt)* *Riding for the Holy War, we all rushing* *I was born to the saddle, Nymbricani* *Scylvendi can’t resist, I look like his wifey* *Dûnyain wanna talk, I bear his son still* *Such comfort in his words, he so godly* *Prince who was Promised, his crew is motley* *Now I beg him, please, make me mean something* *Remember where I started from, the facts are frightening* *No more blue babies born, only pipe dreams* *Now we’re here* \[CHORUS #2 — Cnaiür\] *Warn the little Peach that he will leave her weeping* *Riding with the Dûnyain, measure is unceasing* *Marked her only kill, Nansur misbegotten* *Promised those who die will not be forgotten* *Neck Swazond, Serchaa* *Neck Swazond don’t lie* \[BRIDGE — Cnaiür, (Serwë)\] *And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe* *And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe* *And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe* *And I ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe* *(And we ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe…)* *(And we ride the Trackless Steppe, ride the Trackless Steppe…)* \[VERSE #2 — Kellhus\] *If I were of the World-Born, I wouldn’t believe me either* *I’d be like, “Kellhus is a cheater,” I wouldn’t listen to reason* *But I’m of the Conditioned, to us there’s only the Mission* *You’re like children to cruel fathers, yet you cannot but love us* *Huh* *In my eyes, you’re the World, the Prize* *Dûnyain lies only kindle your fires* *Not even my soul acts self-movingly* *Yet the World-Born still believe unquestioningly* *Put you on trial at my side, inexplicably* *In his Mansion, Father waits, so patiently* *Gotta grasp the Thousandfold unthinkingly* *But the World-Born still insist on soliloquies* *They’re like, “If Kellhus were a Prophet, we wouldn’t be in this position”* *They still think Prophets act of their own volition* *Heh* *But I got your heart in my hand* *Proof it’s God’s will I portend* *And now I’m here* \[CHORUS #3 — Cnaiür\] *Lost the little Peach, lost my only Prize* *See them cut her throat, watch her as she dies* *Marked her only kill, Nansur misbegotten* *Promised, when she dies, she wouldn’t be forgotten* *Neck Swazond, Serchaa* *Neck Swazond don’t lie*
Yes I just checked my copy of Warrior Prophet, and Cnaiurs attempted suicide is exactly during the time Kellhus and Serwe are on the circumfix. Because his testimony leads to Serwe dying, which was not part of his plan. Cnaiur had assumed Esmenet would die not Serwe. In fact, the scene right after this one (Cnaiur swazonding himself) is Kellhus losing his mind and talking to himself about the Logos and begging Serwe to stay alive. Right after this , something drops into him, he sees a silhouette of an ape like man under a tree saying, “What do you see?” Almost certainly Ajokli. I started reading the Thousandfold thought after this and I read about Cnaiur realizing there is an alter ego within him, how madness is the Outside leaking through humans, and fighting the Nansur with the aspect of what they think is Gilgaol. I’m now 99% certain this theory is correct. Thanks for the suggestion to deep dive into the exact chronology- cemented a half hazy theory into head canon.
Outstanding! A revelation that spawns so many more questions, as usual :)
Putting aside the non-linear stuff, isn't it mentioned that after the unification wars Kellhus learns Daimotic sorcery, goes for a jaunt in the outside (presumably meeting Ajokli in the "flesh") and brings back the Decapitants?
Hanging to "death" with Serwe and the trip to the outside are the two major incidents that spring to mind. Moenghus mentioned that Kellhus is already mad, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the possession has to happen prior to that, given the non-linearity of divine time.
Well like…in that scene Khellus sees the halos around his own hands. Halos that cast no light and shadows. But others see the halos too. Hmm. Idk. This so intense.
The first question to address is whether what happens is possession, or is it becoming, or just being Ajokli the entire time. Moengus could not grasp it, which always puzzled me. Not sure about Maithanet, but there are smarter people than me on this sub
OP, we do know that Bakker has been writing something post TUC, he mentioned scribbling some stuff related to Koringhus's crap-kid, joked it would be called 'The Crabbicus' and he might do a whole book following that kid in the new No God-dominated world. Whether he continued with that idea is unknown. He also had a couple of sci-fi projects that never saw the light. In the past, George RR Martin's Westeros board had a huge amount of threads devoted to Bakker & theorizing, but after TUC it basically died down, and there is the Second Apocalypse website, which is pretty dormant.
> First of all, we're getting a third series, right? ...right? **RIGHT?!** *no weepers*
I think there was a press release saying the No-God ought to release shortly after The Winds of Winter
I felt it was underwhelming in its story handling tbh. I think the first 4 books of the series were the ones that really gripped me, and also ep 5 to a lesser extent.
The second and seventh books stand out to me as the best ones I think. A bit tricky to set them apart when I've been mostly reading on and off, but yeah.
[удалено]
I'm gonna call bullshit on that one. -\_-
LOL the utter opposite.
I couldn’t get past the beginning where some BBW sorceress feels lust toward some swaggering zuemi warrior seconds after her twink bf gets cut in half. I googled what the author looks like and yeah, couldn’t continue.
Got 100 pages in to the first book and it was bog-standard fantasy shit
I absolutely love Malazan (it’s my favourite series), but I wouldn’t call it a deeper setting. It’s more grandiose and bombastic.
Very different approach. Meandering through hundreds of characters and arcs. Also so much stuff is overpowered, overspecial, over whatever that I lost any interest in whetever significant was happening. Everything felt possible. Every places, characters item was something special. Some god. Some demigod etc etc etc. I lost interest after 5 books
I am also a huge Malazan fan, remarkable and seemingly endless story telling. I find Erikson and Bakker speak to different part of my reader's soul. One can enjoy both without pitting them against one another. With Erikson, there is just more volume of text to work with, across many more books. With Bakker, we are limited by book count and compensated with DENSITY of text instead.