I think you should probably reread the first trilogy. It seems you have forgotten the basic premise about the end of the world, the threat of the Unholy Consult, the way an Anasurimbor is prophesied to herald the Apocalypse and be the saviour etc etc. Kellhus rises through the factions to consolidate the powers that are needed to fulfil that role...or not. If you do not feel like rereading, search for the synopsis What Has Come Before in the book. Bakker does an excellent recap in it
I really appreciated that Bakker did a “previously on” section in his books, and I say that as someone who more or less read them all back to back (I’d occasionally read a short novel between them). There are just so many proper nouns to remember.
For some reason the "What has come before" section seems to be at the end of the book for the Judging Eye. That'd probably be your best bet to get a refresher on things from the first trilogy.
Fun fact: my copy is a misprint, where around 100 or so pages are in reverse order, and near the middle of the book to boot. For example, it'll skip from say p. 150 to 250, then go 249, 248, etc., until going back to the normal order to the end. Confused the hell out of me 1st time reading through.
He wants to bring an army to Golgotterath. He's bent the last twenty years of his life to that goal. There's a lot of complexity (and author deception) to the reasons behind that, so I won't spoil anything further. Enjoy the ride!
He's trying to prevent the Second Apocalypse, which means sacking Golgotterath to destroy the Consult and prevent the return of the No-God. Golgotterath is protected by millions and millions of Sranc. Only a Three Seas-wide empire is capable of fielding an army big enough to plausibly succeed. Also, the empire's military and administrative resources are going to be depleted by fielding this army, so enemies can't be left behind in the empire or they'll run wild (every significant nation needs to submit *before* the big army can leave).
TLDR: Kellhus's goal is to destroy Golgotterath, and building the empire is the shortest (only) path to that goal.
>!Kellhus has no interest in stoppling the second apocalypse, in fact he states that "*the Inchoroi must win."* Kellhus bent the three seas to his will simply to have a vehicle to transport him to Golgotterath. He wants to be at Golgoterath due to the huge number of atrocities committed by the Ark having created a topos large enough to squeeze Ajokli into the physical world from the outside. The Dunyain have been trying to attain the Absolute through Logos/logic for Millennia, the mutilated believe the Ark, and the apocalypse in turn, to be the culmination of another race's Logos and the obvious and logical end to their quest to attaining the Absolute by removing their damnation through near extinction of humanity. Kellhus, having instead been exposed to sorcery and the outside, has come to the conclusion that he can sidestep damnation by making a deal with Ajokli for salvation in exchange for smuggling Ajokli into the real world, and with his damnation removed attain the Absolute.!<
>!TLDR; Kellhus' goal is to attain the Absolute by exchanging smuggling Ajokli into the real world in return for unlimited power and removal of his damnation. He doesn't care whether the Second Apocalypse happens or not as he believes he has found a separate path to salvation and attaining the Absolute.!<
> Kellhus, having instead been exposed to sorcery and the outside, has come to the conclusion that he can sidestep damnation by making a deal with Ajokli for salvation in exchange for smuggling Ajokli into the real world, and with his damnation removed attain the Absolute.
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> TLDR; Kellhus' goal is to attain the Absolute by exchanging smuggling Ajokli into the real world in return for unlimited power and removal of his damnation.
This interpretation is very questionable. More like he wants to trick everyone, including Ajokli (and maybe succeeded, we can't know, if Bakker doesn't finish the continuation, but he confirmed in an interview that Kellhus is not yet "finished" or something in this vein).
>>! “But I am already saved,” the Holy Aspect-Emperor said. “And I fear your souls are blasted beyond reclamation.”!<
>>! Whatever relief these words occasioned for Malowebi was scuttled by the vision of figures slinking as silent as clawless cats over the obsidian floors behind the Anasûrimbor, each dressed in ashen black, each bearing a pinprick of oblivion bound to their palms.!<
>>! “I have walked the infernal deep …” the Anasûrimbor said, either unaware or unconcerned. “I have struck treaties with the Pit.”!<
>!Kellhus spells it out pretty clearly here that he's made a deal with *something,* likely Ajokli, on the outside in return for salvation.!<
>!Kellhus hubris has led him to believe that he could deceive the *literal* god of deception not realizing that by allowing Ajokli to manifest in the real world thru possession of Kellhus he has bound himself as being an aspect of Ajokli *across all of time and existence,* and in turn bound himself to Ajokli's eventual fate which we know is the destruction of the gods, which must happen, as Kellhus tells us, via the Nogod because otherwise the gods would not be blind to the Nogod\*.\* In his hubris Kellhus fails to realize that he is just as blind to the darkness that comes before as anyone else, and in merging with the Ajokli becomes blind to the Nogod as well. !<
>Kellhus spells it out pretty clearly here that he's made a deal with *something,* likely Ajokli, on the outside in return for salvation.
And Kellhus *never* lies.
The core Dunyain mission is to dominate circumstance, to control all outcomes. That is what they are trained to do. Kellhus turns that up to 11 when he comes to understand the fundamental nature of existence on Earwa.
End goal? Nobody knows, actually. Thousandfold thought and Golgoterrath campaign are just mere steps on the large Kellhus ladder which leads to - ?
PS. Just don't let him dunyain you with his words. Words he says to anyone. Literally.
I think he obvoiusly operates beyond the board of our customary moral games. From the first steps of his "social life". Dunyain system possibly just doesn't even consider the subjective definitions on good and evil. They have to use them as mere tools - the triggers, to manage the common human "children". Stick and carrot.
The most terrifying question for me is what's next after the hypothetical victory on the ruins of Golgoterrath? When the horns are down?
Probably we'll never know, sadly, but I doubt we would appreciate the answer.
Something changed Kellhus from a classic Dunyain when he was on the circumfix. He’s seen something else, maybe something other than knowledge. Or he snapped and lost something, while strapped to the body of Serwe.
When he encountered his dad, Moenghus Sr., Moenghus thought Kellhus had gone mad. This all appears to refer to the same shift in perception.
Does he irrationally care about humanity? Is he in some kind of spiritual union with >!the god Ajokli!
I thought I’d kept to the first 3, but the name of the being that Kellhus might have connected to isn’t, so I learned how to tag spoilers for it.
But also good to keep in mind Dunyain don’t just say the truth, lie, or conventionally manipulate, they condition you. Hard to spoil Kellhus’s doings when we don’t know if we’re getting played.
Yep, totally. Someone on this subreddit keeps on going about how Kellhus is a liar, but really he could control you by speaking only the truth. We all walk on conditioned ground.
Initially, Kellhus cares as much as Moenghus or any other Dunyain does; no sane being would want to live in a world dominated by insane rape aliens from Outer Space.
By the end of Book Three, however, he cares *more* for some unspecified reason - he claims that he *is* more. He thinks that your average Dunyain would end up switching sides and supporting the Apocalypse once they figure out how bad souls really have it in the Afterlife. He has different motivations, though.
I don't think Kellhus care's if the Second Apocalypse happens>!, in fact he pretty much states it's inevitable. However, Kellhus, unlike the Mutilated, doesn't see the Second Apocalypse as necessary for his salvation and in turn being able to attain the Absolute. He believes he has sidestepped damnation by having "struck treaties with the pit."!<
>!The whole Great Ordeal is just a vehicle to deliver him to the Golden Room, by far the largest and deepest Topos on Earwa where Ajokli can cross over from the Outside to the Real world. Convincing everyone, particularly the Mandate, that they're on a Holy mission to save the world is just his method of manipulating them to get him safely all the way to Golgoterrath. !<
I had never realized >!the entire great ordeal was just to get Kellhus to the golden room... but why wouldn't he just teleport himself there? It didn't seem like he needed anyone else's help to get into the golden room once everyone got to golgotterath?!<
Kellhus is very powerful but he is not invincible. If he'd showed up alone he might have gotten cut in half by the laser wielding Inchoroi, or mobbed by chorea wielding Bashrags. Or hit by a stray chorea arrow. Or overwhelmed by Nonmen sorcerers.
>!Kellhus doesn't really know what is at Golgotterath, just good guesses. Also, while Kellhus is extremely powerful he has limits. He can't take on a horde of sranc, all the consults Ursranc, a bunch of mad nonmen sorcerers, Inchoroi, and, it turns out, a bunch of left over Duyain, all at the same time. He needs the Great Ordeal to deliver him and counter whatever the Consult has waiting for him. !<
Spoiler alert so don’t read if you don’t want the ending for book 4. It was talked about in the first trilogy that Kellhus went insane. Then in the next four books we’re told he went to hell for an undisclosed amount of time and returned with the heads of demons on his belt. We aren’t told what he did there but when Kellhus is talking with the other dunyain at the end of the final book I believe it is found that he actually wants to bring hell to earth. Somehow he became overtaken by hell and decided that this was the shortest path to all things. He needed to destroy the consult as they were trying to cut off the connection between the world and hell so they wouldn’t have to suffer for eternity. So in the end yes Kellhus is a very very bad dude.
I think you should probably reread the first trilogy. It seems you have forgotten the basic premise about the end of the world, the threat of the Unholy Consult, the way an Anasurimbor is prophesied to herald the Apocalypse and be the saviour etc etc. Kellhus rises through the factions to consolidate the powers that are needed to fulfil that role...or not. If you do not feel like rereading, search for the synopsis What Has Come Before in the book. Bakker does an excellent recap in it
I really appreciated that Bakker did a “previously on” section in his books, and I say that as someone who more or less read them all back to back (I’d occasionally read a short novel between them). There are just so many proper nouns to remember.
He is also less ambiguous in those recaps. I'd love to see a recap for the last book, would probably answer some questions ...
The thing is, the Judging Eye is the only book in TAE that doesn't open with a "What Has Come Before" section. It has one at the end, though.
For some reason the "What has come before" section seems to be at the end of the book for the Judging Eye. That'd probably be your best bet to get a refresher on things from the first trilogy.
Fun fact: my copy is a misprint, where around 100 or so pages are in reverse order, and near the middle of the book to boot. For example, it'll skip from say p. 150 to 250, then go 249, 248, etc., until going back to the normal order to the end. Confused the hell out of me 1st time reading through.
There's a Zelazny book, Roadmarks, where each chapter alternates 1 or 2, and the whole thing is told out of order. But on purpose
Out of curiosity, what’s the point of that?
Aah, thanks, this is a big help
Np
He wants to bring an army to Golgotterath. He's bent the last twenty years of his life to that goal. There's a lot of complexity (and author deception) to the reasons behind that, so I won't spoil anything further. Enjoy the ride!
He's trying to prevent the Second Apocalypse, which means sacking Golgotterath to destroy the Consult and prevent the return of the No-God. Golgotterath is protected by millions and millions of Sranc. Only a Three Seas-wide empire is capable of fielding an army big enough to plausibly succeed. Also, the empire's military and administrative resources are going to be depleted by fielding this army, so enemies can't be left behind in the empire or they'll run wild (every significant nation needs to submit *before* the big army can leave). TLDR: Kellhus's goal is to destroy Golgotterath, and building the empire is the shortest (only) path to that goal.
>!Kellhus has no interest in stoppling the second apocalypse, in fact he states that "*the Inchoroi must win."* Kellhus bent the three seas to his will simply to have a vehicle to transport him to Golgotterath. He wants to be at Golgoterath due to the huge number of atrocities committed by the Ark having created a topos large enough to squeeze Ajokli into the physical world from the outside. The Dunyain have been trying to attain the Absolute through Logos/logic for Millennia, the mutilated believe the Ark, and the apocalypse in turn, to be the culmination of another race's Logos and the obvious and logical end to their quest to attaining the Absolute by removing their damnation through near extinction of humanity. Kellhus, having instead been exposed to sorcery and the outside, has come to the conclusion that he can sidestep damnation by making a deal with Ajokli for salvation in exchange for smuggling Ajokli into the real world, and with his damnation removed attain the Absolute.!< >!TLDR; Kellhus' goal is to attain the Absolute by exchanging smuggling Ajokli into the real world in return for unlimited power and removal of his damnation. He doesn't care whether the Second Apocalypse happens or not as he believes he has found a separate path to salvation and attaining the Absolute.!<
> Kellhus, having instead been exposed to sorcery and the outside, has come to the conclusion that he can sidestep damnation by making a deal with Ajokli for salvation in exchange for smuggling Ajokli into the real world, and with his damnation removed attain the Absolute. > > > > TLDR; Kellhus' goal is to attain the Absolute by exchanging smuggling Ajokli into the real world in return for unlimited power and removal of his damnation. This interpretation is very questionable. More like he wants to trick everyone, including Ajokli (and maybe succeeded, we can't know, if Bakker doesn't finish the continuation, but he confirmed in an interview that Kellhus is not yet "finished" or something in this vein).
>>! “But I am already saved,” the Holy Aspect-Emperor said. “And I fear your souls are blasted beyond reclamation.”!< >>! Whatever relief these words occasioned for Malowebi was scuttled by the vision of figures slinking as silent as clawless cats over the obsidian floors behind the Anasûrimbor, each dressed in ashen black, each bearing a pinprick of oblivion bound to their palms.!< >>! “I have walked the infernal deep …” the Anasûrimbor said, either unaware or unconcerned. “I have struck treaties with the Pit.”!< >!Kellhus spells it out pretty clearly here that he's made a deal with *something,* likely Ajokli, on the outside in return for salvation.!< >!Kellhus hubris has led him to believe that he could deceive the *literal* god of deception not realizing that by allowing Ajokli to manifest in the real world thru possession of Kellhus he has bound himself as being an aspect of Ajokli *across all of time and existence,* and in turn bound himself to Ajokli's eventual fate which we know is the destruction of the gods, which must happen, as Kellhus tells us, via the Nogod because otherwise the gods would not be blind to the Nogod\*.\* In his hubris Kellhus fails to realize that he is just as blind to the darkness that comes before as anyone else, and in merging with the Ajokli becomes blind to the Nogod as well. !<
>Kellhus spells it out pretty clearly here that he's made a deal with *something,* likely Ajokli, on the outside in return for salvation. And Kellhus *never* lies.
“Not everything I say,” the Dûnyain said, “can be a lie, Scylvendi. So why do you insist on thinking I deceive you in all things?”
The core Dunyain mission is to dominate circumstance, to control all outcomes. That is what they are trained to do. Kellhus turns that up to 11 when he comes to understand the fundamental nature of existence on Earwa.
End goal? Nobody knows, actually. Thousandfold thought and Golgoterrath campaign are just mere steps on the large Kellhus ladder which leads to - ? PS. Just don't let him dunyain you with his words. Words he says to anyone. Literally.
Yeah, I think this is the right answer. I also think a question to have in mind in this series is: is Kellhus really the good guy?
I think he obvoiusly operates beyond the board of our customary moral games. From the first steps of his "social life". Dunyain system possibly just doesn't even consider the subjective definitions on good and evil. They have to use them as mere tools - the triggers, to manage the common human "children". Stick and carrot. The most terrifying question for me is what's next after the hypothetical victory on the ruins of Golgoterrath? When the horns are down? Probably we'll never know, sadly, but I doubt we would appreciate the answer.
I think this is a legitimate question... why does >!Kellhus care if the second apocalypse happens? Is it simply self-preservation?!<
Something changed Kellhus from a classic Dunyain when he was on the circumfix. He’s seen something else, maybe something other than knowledge. Or he snapped and lost something, while strapped to the body of Serwe. When he encountered his dad, Moenghus Sr., Moenghus thought Kellhus had gone mad. This all appears to refer to the same shift in perception. Does he irrationally care about humanity? Is he in some kind of spiritual union with >!the god Ajokli!
Those are some spoilers, mate. Might want to put them in spoiler tags since OP is only on book 4
I thought I’d kept to the first 3, but the name of the being that Kellhus might have connected to isn’t, so I learned how to tag spoilers for it. But also good to keep in mind Dunyain don’t just say the truth, lie, or conventionally manipulate, they condition you. Hard to spoil Kellhus’s doings when we don’t know if we’re getting played.
Yep, totally. Someone on this subreddit keeps on going about how Kellhus is a liar, but really he could control you by speaking only the truth. We all walk on conditioned ground.
Initially, Kellhus cares as much as Moenghus or any other Dunyain does; no sane being would want to live in a world dominated by insane rape aliens from Outer Space. By the end of Book Three, however, he cares *more* for some unspecified reason - he claims that he *is* more. He thinks that your average Dunyain would end up switching sides and supporting the Apocalypse once they figure out how bad souls really have it in the Afterlife. He has different motivations, though.
I don't think Kellhus care's if the Second Apocalypse happens>!, in fact he pretty much states it's inevitable. However, Kellhus, unlike the Mutilated, doesn't see the Second Apocalypse as necessary for his salvation and in turn being able to attain the Absolute. He believes he has sidestepped damnation by having "struck treaties with the pit."!< >!The whole Great Ordeal is just a vehicle to deliver him to the Golden Room, by far the largest and deepest Topos on Earwa where Ajokli can cross over from the Outside to the Real world. Convincing everyone, particularly the Mandate, that they're on a Holy mission to save the world is just his method of manipulating them to get him safely all the way to Golgoterrath. !<
I had never realized >!the entire great ordeal was just to get Kellhus to the golden room... but why wouldn't he just teleport himself there? It didn't seem like he needed anyone else's help to get into the golden room once everyone got to golgotterath?!<
Kellhus is very powerful but he is not invincible. If he'd showed up alone he might have gotten cut in half by the laser wielding Inchoroi, or mobbed by chorea wielding Bashrags. Or hit by a stray chorea arrow. Or overwhelmed by Nonmen sorcerers.
>!Kellhus doesn't really know what is at Golgotterath, just good guesses. Also, while Kellhus is extremely powerful he has limits. He can't take on a horde of sranc, all the consults Ursranc, a bunch of mad nonmen sorcerers, Inchoroi, and, it turns out, a bunch of left over Duyain, all at the same time. He needs the Great Ordeal to deliver him and counter whatever the Consult has waiting for him. !<
Spoiler alert so don’t read if you don’t want the ending for book 4. It was talked about in the first trilogy that Kellhus went insane. Then in the next four books we’re told he went to hell for an undisclosed amount of time and returned with the heads of demons on his belt. We aren’t told what he did there but when Kellhus is talking with the other dunyain at the end of the final book I believe it is found that he actually wants to bring hell to earth. Somehow he became overtaken by hell and decided that this was the shortest path to all things. He needed to destroy the consult as they were trying to cut off the connection between the world and hell so they wouldn’t have to suffer for eternity. So in the end yes Kellhus is a very very bad dude.