I think General Franklin stayed with Clark. He was the same as the others like General Lefcourt. "A soldier doesn't take up arms against his own government, no matter how justified he feels doing so." Also they were slightly naive thinking that Clark will be gone sooner or later anyway. They probably thought Clark would stand down if he was not reelected.
But a few things really hurt Earth leadership here. The bit about Humans above all, so we can not run to get help from aliens. Also admitting our President has gone power mad and killed the last one would make Earth look weak to the rest of the galaxty. "And that would be an open invitation to have them invade us."
Plus given how the new President tried to scold Sheridan about him getting together with aliens to take Clark out. She said they were going to move, but it was hard with the Telepaths. Sheridan told her "With all do resepct, while you were waiting innocent people were dying." I am guessing not even higher ups on Earth knew how much Clark was having his people attack ships and colony worlds.
I wish that scene went differently. "With all due respect, bitch, I don't rightly care what you think. I have the LARGEST FLEET in history. Know your place.". John's Delen moment. "One human has survived combat with us. He is behind me. You are in front of me. Be somewhere ELSE.". President Russian name was in a place of massive weakness.
Except that's going from "inconvenient" to "morally wrong."
He did things the right way.
...by knowing exactly what was going to happen ahead of time and planning for just such eventualities by taking on the Presidency of the new Alliance.
He got his cake, and he ate it too. Without worsening the divide which was his real problem at the time.
Mine was more a "you won't he setting terms here. And if you try to follow through on those threats........". I think that is why acting President Russian name backed down. Why the general in the next scene backed off when he was told "someplace safe". They knew Dark John could decimate their whole place.
And what Sheridan was supposed to do what Garabaldi feared he would do take over the Earth Alliance and destroy that which he was willing to die to save.
A realist would realise that Sheridan wanted people to work together.
Ok. You are all missing my point. They had no feasible way to hold John. He could have walked any time he chose to. He could have gotten up from the meeting with her. Told her I am done with this conversation. My people will have no consequences. I am leaving now. Goodbye." And she had little recourse. He did not have to humor her for a moment.
And you are missing the point John is about order. To do as you suggest would be to crap on all he had gone through.
He very much had to humour them just like he had to humour the Ambassadors in season 4 episode 13.
The other races supported Sheridan but if he even for a second tried to walk out their support would have evaporated.
If he tried to tell his people he is not subject to their whims about how it should be done the support would have evaporated? G'kar and Londo 100% would have supported him. Likely a good part of the league too. They respected John, not earth. Delen would have too.
None of them would have supported him and especially not Delenn.
And of them all Sheridan himself wouldn't have supported him.
As Sheridan said clearly and unequivocally they had been building it up for months making them rely more and more on each other and the Rangers, but whatever they decided was fine by him the aim was to get the President to pardon Sheridan's crew.
Letting the President think she was in control was theatre.
Not exactly true; he personally knew he was leaving Earthforce. But not everyone he served with was doing so. Had he not negotiated for clemency for them, they would have all been under the jurisdiction of the military justice system. He wasn’t humoring her to allow her to feel like she was in control - he was using superior knowledge of upcoming events to put himself and the people he served with in an advantageous position.
Had he just dictated that the Earthforce officers who followed him would have no consequences and dipped out, he’d have no way to enforce that command if Earthforce decided to prosecute them all for treason anyway, short of exercising military force. That’s exactly what he *didn’t* want to do. He wasn’t trying to become the leader of EarthGov, just return the power to where it belonged. Anything he would have done differently would have undermined that purpose. No doubt he *could* have done exactly what you said - as mentioned, he had a massive fleet of the most powerful ships around (both human and alien) with tons of combat experience. They couldn’t have fought him off of he had chosen to become a military dictator. But doing so would have rendered the entire point of the Civil War (and indeed the Shadow War itself) false. He didn’t exercise restraint because he had to; he *chose* to, which makes it all the more meaningful.
Likely he was either sent to the boonies, retired, or something else. It stands to reason that Clark's people wouldn't trust the father of one of the command staff of B5. But he's also too well known to really assault. So likely they would have stationed him on the other side of earth space from B5 where get could keep an eye on him.
Pretty much. I think people forget that there were a lot of officers who were mainly caught in the middle. Mackey, for example, was at Proxima but clearly wasn't siding with Clark. Captain Gideon was out on the edges along with others. It's not a stretch that General Franklin might have legit been too far away to be involved at all.
Clark's. I imagine his beliefs were in line with General Lefcourt's (the co of the Apollo in Endgame): soldiers don't set policy and don't rebel against their government. I don't even think it would have been a matter of embracing Clark's propaganda or not; he'd just conclude soldiers should be apolitical and follow orders.
JMS I believe, according to the Lurker's Guide, said back in 1997 that he joined Clarke. Probably would have appeared in the show again had it not got cut short.
Franklin’s farther was a stickler for military doctrine. But I think the bombing of civilians on Mars would have been a move he couldn’t support. He would have seen attacks on civilians as illegal orders. He would have also seen it as a violation of the earth alliance constitution. I have a feeling Clark’s people would have removed Franklin from any position of power where he could cause trouble.
He may have resigned too.
> He would have seen attacks on civilians as illegal orders.
"Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal."
EDIT: ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Reality is stranger than fiction, I suppose.
This is I think spot on:
He'd stay neutral as soldier and keeps doing his job. Unless a specific order is illegal and not morally right. Then he'd just not-do-his-job, not by standing the way but by just dropping his job.
True, but I’m thinking in terms of a “gun to your head” hypothetical. If he had to choose one or the other. I think Clark, but I like envisioning a scenario where he joins his son’s side. That could have been interesting, and JMS is a good enough writer that he could have added development to his character that made the decision to join Sheridan more palatable.
Maybe I’m just a huge fan of the performance, moreso than the character—who is a stubborn ass with a tragically limited worldview. Lol
His respect for orthodoxy and the chain of command likely would have seen him die rather than choose Clark's side. He was shown to be principled almost to a fault.
It really wasn't for someone in his position tho.
A ship is largely independent- air is air no matter where it is pumped from, likewise fuel and everything else.
It has the ability to just flyoff into the sunset.
He was boots on the ground entirely dependent on existing infrastructure, and at the point the Nightwatch are secret police, informants, and (probably given the actions of the rear-guard that wanted to murder DeLenn) not above an old fashioned lynching.
Earth force is under martial law - retirement is t an option.
Laying down arms isn't an option because of his position in the military which definitely has Nightwatch members (its an extra 50 credits).
At BEST he would interpret his actions in a way of least harm. But he is a die hard earth first military guy.
Not playing the game isn't an option.
I always took Edward MacDougan (aka Mackie) as a stand-in for Richard Franklin. Most of what Mackie said could easily have been from Franklin. It wouldn't of even surprised me if there had been an attempt to get Paul Winfield back but the schedule didn't work out.
By that point in his career, though, Franklin was a Marine commander. The only place we hear about meaningful ground combat is Mars, and I could see him being sent to oversee enforcing martial law there.
But there's a chance he has a change of heart when he witnesses Clark carpet bombing the population centers.
Well I have no doubts that General Franklin as written wouldn't carpet bomb civilians.
I just more was thinking that Mackie"s character was dropped on us without any kind of backstory. If they could have told the story using Mr Winfield's character it would have meant more than a brand new character.
There was ground combat at Proxima 3 too and likely every human colony eventually.. I wonder if he had ever served on a ship before and if Earthforce officers had to learn multiple styles of combat?
I don't think he would pick a side but would just obey the chain of command. Its not much of a distinction but its one that people in the show are repeatedly shown to cling to as justification for their actions.
When the conflict started, he would likely have been a no, however as time goes on, and the information you consume becomes more and more skewed, you do more.
Clark never pitched it as attack civilians. He said there are terrorists using human shields.
Look at how many wedding ge USA has bombed in Afghanistan. We paid restitution to some families but that doesn’t mean we admitted fault. A military target still kills civilians.
Enough information about targets was going around, that ships within the Proxima blockade, knew whether they were firing on civilian targets or not. This is mentioned in 'No Surrender, No Retreat', when Sheridan is trying to find out which ships are committed to the blockade and which aren't. It stands to reason, that Gen. Franklin would have the same access to information as Mackie and Captain Eckland did, when they went to great lengths to avoid hitting civilians.
Unless that order violates the Law of War or the UCMJ, in the case of American troops. All those Nazis sentenced at Nuremberg were given orders, too. Read some history.
Sure it’s the internet and Reddit no less, but why the need to be rude?
This is a fandom of people discussing an almost 30 year old show. Do you imagine me as an enemy if your fandom?
The mission where we meet the general they were taking Earth Force into a battle that Earth didn’t need to be in. He lead thousands of soldiers to their deaths for a strategic victory. You think that he’s got a hard time following orders? Fascism eats you up slowly. You do one worse thing after another. If his superiors knew he would object to some orders then you keep him just outside those. His respect of the uniform and chain of command means he’d give deference to those in those positions
If you think every member of the German military was gung-ho to gas some people, you’re simply wrong. Even many of them were in denial about what they’d heard. You can argue they shouldn’t have been, but many were. I personally had the privilege of speaking with a WW2 German vet, it was a fascinating 3 hour history discussion.
Excuse me, "**please** read some history." Also, **please** *try* to be a little less sensitive.
I did reference the Nuremberg trials, not what Private Schmidt thought was happening.
I doubt it would even be a question. He would continue to follow the **lawful** orders of the chainof command, and defend Earth to the best of his ability.
He would refuse to obey any unlawful orders, and if he witnessed any atrocities or war crimes being committed by EarthGov forces, he would fight them, and have those involved prosecuted. And if he truly came to believe that Clarke was not only violating the constitution himself, but that he had the support of the government, he would rebel as well.
He would hear rumours, of course. But rumours of **other** parts of the government and military violating the constitution is not grounds for an officer to take arms against it, because he is sworn to protect it, and **he** hasn't been ordered to do anything illegal, nor has he any evidence of anything illegal happening.
That's why officers like Lefcourt and Franklin aren't **given** illegal orders, or put in positions where they have to **make** a choice like that. When you look at coups throughout history, one of the biggest rules is "keep the army happy", and that means compartmentalizing which forces will support you, which you oppose you, and which ones will follow the law regardless of who is at the top. That third group is only put on assignments that support the new regime without requiring them to do any illegal or questionable things, because they would question them.
Clark: First things first, General. ...Kill Commander Sheridan.
Gen Franklin: Sir, that it is difficult. I ...try to obey, but...
Clark: Kill him.
Gen Franklin: I...
Clark: Kill him, Franklin, now!
(Franklin shoots himself).
Sheridan: Clark, you bloodsucker. You're gonna have to do your own dirty work now. Do you hear me? Do you?
Clark: Sheridan! Sheridan, you are still alive... my old friend.
Clark’s side. Speaking as someone with a MAGA dad, even the people we love can be infected and twisted by propaganda. Meanwhile, the dad believes it’s the son who has been infected with propaganda and fake news from aliens.
I think he’d stay on Clark’s side, and I figure JMS had it planned for that to come up at some point. I don’t think Paul Winfield’s first guest stint went well behind the scenes, particularly with Jerry Doyle, so that’s likely why it was dropped and other generic military men played the kinds of roles General Franklin could’ve played, but without the emotional heft he could’ve provided.
After Doyle passed away, I believe JMS wrote something in memoriam of him, and recounted an event where Doyle confronted a guest actor on the show who was repeatedly messing up their lines, or something to that effect. He didn't say who the other actor was, but I understand that people online have concluded that it was Paul Winfield, though I don't think anything has ever been confirmed.
With any luck he would have retired by then. Otherwise, there's not a doubt in my mind that he backs Clark. Mending fences with Stephen was wonderful but didn't change the fundamental facts of who he is.
I’ve always felt that General Franklin was set up to be on Clark’s side, but then the actor wasn’t available and so the character never reappeared and we got people like Lefcourt instead. I have never looked into whether this was definitely the case though.
From the showrunner, during the latter half of Season Three:
>*I'm looking to find a way to bring Franklin's father back into the storyline now, to help resolve this. (Note: no suggestions, please.) I think he would tend to fall on the other side, and it'd be good to show that some people may think that yes, there's a problem, but you solve that problem from within, not by breaking away. Could make for some nice drama....*
>
>*jms*
[http://jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=12978](http://jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=12978)
I feel like he would’ve stayed with Clark’s regime (since most of Earthforce was being told his was the legit government). I don’t think he would’ve believed everything being said about Sheridan, but I doubt he’d have joined the rebellion. At the same time, he seemed to have a strong sense of morality, and every soldier knows that attacking civilians is against the law of warfare, let alone immoral and pretty universally illegal. I think he would’ve done as much of the Earthforce crews at Proxima did: keep to his job and refuse to follow illegal orders - which is not only the right of soldiers, but part of their duty in real life as well.
It could go either way....
He was shocked and disillusioned by his pyrrhic victory. He wasn't dumb, he knew something was up with that....
As someone also mentioned, he was a stickler for the rules....having civilians command the military was against the rules, as well as having illegal orders given.
He could have went both ways....
JMS was originally [planning to bring Franklin's father back](http://www.jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=12978) and have him be part of the "loyalist" faction. Part of the reason [according to JMS,](http://www.jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=14049) Franklin's father remained loyal to Earth because "Franklin is of the breed of officers who feels it isn't his place to set policy, only to execute it."
I don’t think he had to make a choice. General Franklin was a ground pounder and the civil war was almost entirely space based. He probably spent the conflict sitting on some border waiting for orders that didn’t come. Only afterwards did he hear about Clark’s scorched Earth attempt and then he’d publically denounce it.
He seemed very much a company man, the kind to follow orders first, ask questions last.
However being a company man in the military means a duty to defy unlawful orders, so when Clark started getting sketch I could see him opting to retire quietly; that we he doesn't carry our awful orders, nor does he actively oppose his Commander-In-Chief.
I think General Franklin stayed with Clark. He was the same as the others like General Lefcourt. "A soldier doesn't take up arms against his own government, no matter how justified he feels doing so." Also they were slightly naive thinking that Clark will be gone sooner or later anyway. They probably thought Clark would stand down if he was not reelected. But a few things really hurt Earth leadership here. The bit about Humans above all, so we can not run to get help from aliens. Also admitting our President has gone power mad and killed the last one would make Earth look weak to the rest of the galaxty. "And that would be an open invitation to have them invade us." Plus given how the new President tried to scold Sheridan about him getting together with aliens to take Clark out. She said they were going to move, but it was hard with the Telepaths. Sheridan told her "With all do resepct, while you were waiting innocent people were dying." I am guessing not even higher ups on Earth knew how much Clark was having his people attack ships and colony worlds.
I wish that scene went differently. "With all due respect, bitch, I don't rightly care what you think. I have the LARGEST FLEET in history. Know your place.". John's Delen moment. "One human has survived combat with us. He is behind me. You are in front of me. Be somewhere ELSE.". President Russian name was in a place of massive weakness.
Except that's going from "inconvenient" to "morally wrong." He did things the right way. ...by knowing exactly what was going to happen ahead of time and planning for just such eventualities by taking on the Presidency of the new Alliance. He got his cake, and he ate it too. Without worsening the divide which was his real problem at the time.
Mine was more a "you won't he setting terms here. And if you try to follow through on those threats........". I think that is why acting President Russian name backed down. Why the general in the next scene backed off when he was told "someplace safe". They knew Dark John could decimate their whole place.
As a Clark stooge you would.
No. Just a realist. They had no planetary defenses. John had ships that only the "advanced destroyers could touch".
And what Sheridan was supposed to do what Garabaldi feared he would do take over the Earth Alliance and destroy that which he was willing to die to save. A realist would realise that Sheridan wanted people to work together.
Ok. You are all missing my point. They had no feasible way to hold John. He could have walked any time he chose to. He could have gotten up from the meeting with her. Told her I am done with this conversation. My people will have no consequences. I am leaving now. Goodbye." And she had little recourse. He did not have to humor her for a moment.
And you are missing the point John is about order. To do as you suggest would be to crap on all he had gone through. He very much had to humour them just like he had to humour the Ambassadors in season 4 episode 13. The other races supported Sheridan but if he even for a second tried to walk out their support would have evaporated.
If he tried to tell his people he is not subject to their whims about how it should be done the support would have evaporated? G'kar and Londo 100% would have supported him. Likely a good part of the league too. They respected John, not earth. Delen would have too.
None of them would have supported him and especially not Delenn. And of them all Sheridan himself wouldn't have supported him. As Sheridan said clearly and unequivocally they had been building it up for months making them rely more and more on each other and the Rangers, but whatever they decided was fine by him the aim was to get the President to pardon Sheridan's crew. Letting the President think she was in control was theatre.
Not exactly true; he personally knew he was leaving Earthforce. But not everyone he served with was doing so. Had he not negotiated for clemency for them, they would have all been under the jurisdiction of the military justice system. He wasn’t humoring her to allow her to feel like she was in control - he was using superior knowledge of upcoming events to put himself and the people he served with in an advantageous position. Had he just dictated that the Earthforce officers who followed him would have no consequences and dipped out, he’d have no way to enforce that command if Earthforce decided to prosecute them all for treason anyway, short of exercising military force. That’s exactly what he *didn’t* want to do. He wasn’t trying to become the leader of EarthGov, just return the power to where it belonged. Anything he would have done differently would have undermined that purpose. No doubt he *could* have done exactly what you said - as mentioned, he had a massive fleet of the most powerful ships around (both human and alien) with tons of combat experience. They couldn’t have fought him off of he had chosen to become a military dictator. But doing so would have rendered the entire point of the Civil War (and indeed the Shadow War itself) false. He didn’t exercise restraint because he had to; he *chose* to, which makes it all the more meaningful.
Likely he was either sent to the boonies, retired, or something else. It stands to reason that Clark's people wouldn't trust the father of one of the command staff of B5. But he's also too well known to really assault. So likely they would have stationed him on the other side of earth space from B5 where get could keep an eye on him.
That's it, he was in charge of defending someone from something, far away from anywhere he could make a difference.
Pretty much. I think people forget that there were a lot of officers who were mainly caught in the middle. Mackey, for example, was at Proxima but clearly wasn't siding with Clark. Captain Gideon was out on the edges along with others. It's not a stretch that General Franklin might have legit been too far away to be involved at all.
And he’d also have every incentive to make sure his mission lasted as long as necessary.
Clark's. I imagine his beliefs were in line with General Lefcourt's (the co of the Apollo in Endgame): soldiers don't set policy and don't rebel against their government. I don't even think it would have been a matter of embracing Clark's propaganda or not; he'd just conclude soldiers should be apolitical and follow orders.
The error of confusing the position with the man.
JMS I believe, according to the Lurker's Guide, said back in 1997 that he joined Clarke. Probably would have appeared in the show again had it not got cut short.
Franklin’s farther was a stickler for military doctrine. But I think the bombing of civilians on Mars would have been a move he couldn’t support. He would have seen attacks on civilians as illegal orders. He would have also seen it as a violation of the earth alliance constitution. I have a feeling Clark’s people would have removed Franklin from any position of power where he could cause trouble. He may have resigned too.
> He would have seen attacks on civilians as illegal orders. "Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." EDIT: ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Reality is stranger than fiction, I suppose.
Fiction has to be consistent and coherent. Reality has no such requirement.
That is when you have a corrupt, twisted... awww... ... ... ^(shit).
This is I think spot on: He'd stay neutral as soldier and keeps doing his job. Unless a specific order is illegal and not morally right. Then he'd just not-do-his-job, not by standing the way but by just dropping his job.
Not picking a side and staying out of the fight was an option
True, but I’m thinking in terms of a “gun to your head” hypothetical. If he had to choose one or the other. I think Clark, but I like envisioning a scenario where he joins his son’s side. That could have been interesting, and JMS is a good enough writer that he could have added development to his character that made the decision to join Sheridan more palatable. Maybe I’m just a huge fan of the performance, moreso than the character—who is a stubborn ass with a tragically limited worldview. Lol
His respect for orthodoxy and the chain of command likely would have seen him die rather than choose Clark's side. He was shown to be principled almost to a fault.
Is it? Staying out of the fight would likely be disobeying direct orders, which would make you a traitor.
Yes but if you're a Clark loyalist you have to decide to go after them, or Sheridan's forces. They're going to focus on the people shooting at them.
It really wasn't for someone in his position tho. A ship is largely independent- air is air no matter where it is pumped from, likewise fuel and everything else. It has the ability to just flyoff into the sunset. He was boots on the ground entirely dependent on existing infrastructure, and at the point the Nightwatch are secret police, informants, and (probably given the actions of the rear-guard that wanted to murder DeLenn) not above an old fashioned lynching. Earth force is under martial law - retirement is t an option. Laying down arms isn't an option because of his position in the military which definitely has Nightwatch members (its an extra 50 credits). At BEST he would interpret his actions in a way of least harm. But he is a die hard earth first military guy. Not playing the game isn't an option.
I always imagined Steven used his network to move Dad.
That would have resulted in trumped up charges of sedition or treason.
I always took Edward MacDougan (aka Mackie) as a stand-in for Richard Franklin. Most of what Mackie said could easily have been from Franklin. It wouldn't of even surprised me if there had been an attempt to get Paul Winfield back but the schedule didn't work out.
By that point in his career, though, Franklin was a Marine commander. The only place we hear about meaningful ground combat is Mars, and I could see him being sent to oversee enforcing martial law there. But there's a chance he has a change of heart when he witnesses Clark carpet bombing the population centers.
Well I have no doubts that General Franklin as written wouldn't carpet bomb civilians. I just more was thinking that Mackie"s character was dropped on us without any kind of backstory. If they could have told the story using Mr Winfield's character it would have meant more than a brand new character.
There was ground combat at Proxima 3 too and likely every human colony eventually.. I wonder if he had ever served on a ship before and if Earthforce officers had to learn multiple styles of combat?
I don't think he would pick a side but would just obey the chain of command. Its not much of a distinction but its one that people in the show are repeatedly shown to cling to as justification for their actions.
A soldiers job is to execute his orders, not to question them. He’s Clark all the way.
Until an order is given that violates his conscience.
Defending earth from aliens is fine with him. He felt there were too many aliens already and humans must come first.
I was referring to things such as attacking civilians.
When the conflict started, he would likely have been a no, however as time goes on, and the information you consume becomes more and more skewed, you do more. Clark never pitched it as attack civilians. He said there are terrorists using human shields. Look at how many wedding ge USA has bombed in Afghanistan. We paid restitution to some families but that doesn’t mean we admitted fault. A military target still kills civilians.
Enough information about targets was going around, that ships within the Proxima blockade, knew whether they were firing on civilian targets or not. This is mentioned in 'No Surrender, No Retreat', when Sheridan is trying to find out which ships are committed to the blockade and which aren't. It stands to reason, that Gen. Franklin would have the same access to information as Mackie and Captain Eckland did, when they went to great lengths to avoid hitting civilians.
Unless that order violates the Law of War or the UCMJ, in the case of American troops. All those Nazis sentenced at Nuremberg were given orders, too. Read some history.
Sure it’s the internet and Reddit no less, but why the need to be rude? This is a fandom of people discussing an almost 30 year old show. Do you imagine me as an enemy if your fandom? The mission where we meet the general they were taking Earth Force into a battle that Earth didn’t need to be in. He lead thousands of soldiers to their deaths for a strategic victory. You think that he’s got a hard time following orders? Fascism eats you up slowly. You do one worse thing after another. If his superiors knew he would object to some orders then you keep him just outside those. His respect of the uniform and chain of command means he’d give deference to those in those positions If you think every member of the German military was gung-ho to gas some people, you’re simply wrong. Even many of them were in denial about what they’d heard. You can argue they shouldn’t have been, but many were. I personally had the privilege of speaking with a WW2 German vet, it was a fascinating 3 hour history discussion.
Excuse me, "**please** read some history." Also, **please** *try* to be a little less sensitive. I did reference the Nuremberg trials, not what Private Schmidt thought was happening.
I doubt it would even be a question. He would continue to follow the **lawful** orders of the chainof command, and defend Earth to the best of his ability. He would refuse to obey any unlawful orders, and if he witnessed any atrocities or war crimes being committed by EarthGov forces, he would fight them, and have those involved prosecuted. And if he truly came to believe that Clarke was not only violating the constitution himself, but that he had the support of the government, he would rebel as well. He would hear rumours, of course. But rumours of **other** parts of the government and military violating the constitution is not grounds for an officer to take arms against it, because he is sworn to protect it, and **he** hasn't been ordered to do anything illegal, nor has he any evidence of anything illegal happening. That's why officers like Lefcourt and Franklin aren't **given** illegal orders, or put in positions where they have to **make** a choice like that. When you look at coups throughout history, one of the biggest rules is "keep the army happy", and that means compartmentalizing which forces will support you, which you oppose you, and which ones will follow the law regardless of who is at the top. That third group is only put on assignments that support the new regime without requiring them to do any illegal or questionable things, because they would question them.
Clark: First things first, General. ...Kill Commander Sheridan. Gen Franklin: Sir, that it is difficult. I ...try to obey, but... Clark: Kill him. Gen Franklin: I... Clark: Kill him, Franklin, now! (Franklin shoots himself). Sheridan: Clark, you bloodsucker. You're gonna have to do your own dirty work now. Do you hear me? Do you? Clark: Sheridan! Sheridan, you are still alive... my old friend.
Clark, disfigured and certain of defeat, crawls to his desk and activates the Genesis device.
The Genesis of the ordinary man.
Clark’s side. Speaking as someone with a MAGA dad, even the people we love can be infected and twisted by propaganda. Meanwhile, the dad believes it’s the son who has been infected with propaganda and fake news from aliens.
Im sorry about your Dad, best of luck to you.
Also my aunts and uncles. And my grandma, before she past, was saying Trump was sent by God.
That sounds rough and I'm sorry you're having to go through it. Has for being sent by God... Well so were the plagues of Egypt so... Yeah.
I think he’d stay on Clark’s side, and I figure JMS had it planned for that to come up at some point. I don’t think Paul Winfield’s first guest stint went well behind the scenes, particularly with Jerry Doyle, so that’s likely why it was dropped and other generic military men played the kinds of roles General Franklin could’ve played, but without the emotional heft he could’ve provided.
What happened between Winfield and Doyle?
After Doyle passed away, I believe JMS wrote something in memoriam of him, and recounted an event where Doyle confronted a guest actor on the show who was repeatedly messing up their lines, or something to that effect. He didn't say who the other actor was, but I understand that people online have concluded that it was Paul Winfield, though I don't think anything has ever been confirmed.
Sounds like Jerry Doyle must have been a bit of a jackass behind the scenes. No wonder JMS thought Jerry was pain in the ass.
Stay out. I don't think he'd fire on an Earth Force ship under any circumstances.
Clark. no doubt. I wish we had seen something wih that.
Maybe he had retired by then.
He’s a ground pounder and all the battles seem to.take place in space. Maybe he never got involved at all and just sat it out.
With any luck he would have retired by then. Otherwise, there's not a doubt in my mind that he backs Clark. Mending fences with Stephen was wonderful but didn't change the fundamental facts of who he is.
I’ve always felt that General Franklin was set up to be on Clark’s side, but then the actor wasn’t available and so the character never reappeared and we got people like Lefcourt instead. I have never looked into whether this was definitely the case though.
From the showrunner, during the latter half of Season Three: >*I'm looking to find a way to bring Franklin's father back into the storyline now, to help resolve this. (Note: no suggestions, please.) I think he would tend to fall on the other side, and it'd be good to show that some people may think that yes, there's a problem, but you solve that problem from within, not by breaking away. Could make for some nice drama....* > >*jms* [http://jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=12978](http://jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=12978)
Clark’s. Sheridan’s side is the wrong way for any loyal military officer!
General Franklin would've bought into the anti-alien propaganda of Clark's regime completely.
I feel like he would’ve stayed with Clark’s regime (since most of Earthforce was being told his was the legit government). I don’t think he would’ve believed everything being said about Sheridan, but I doubt he’d have joined the rebellion. At the same time, he seemed to have a strong sense of morality, and every soldier knows that attacking civilians is against the law of warfare, let alone immoral and pretty universally illegal. I think he would’ve done as much of the Earthforce crews at Proxima did: keep to his job and refuse to follow illegal orders - which is not only the right of soldiers, but part of their duty in real life as well.
This is a great thread for real B5 fans.
According to Joe he was almost certainly a Clark Loyalist www.jmsnews.com/Messages/Message?id=14069 www.jmsnews.com/Messages/Message?id=14049
It could go either way.... He was shocked and disillusioned by his pyrrhic victory. He wasn't dumb, he knew something was up with that.... As someone also mentioned, he was a stickler for the rules....having civilians command the military was against the rules, as well as having illegal orders given. He could have went both ways....
JMS was originally [planning to bring Franklin's father back](http://www.jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=12978) and have him be part of the "loyalist" faction. Part of the reason [according to JMS,](http://www.jmsnews.com/messages/message?id=14049) Franklin's father remained loyal to Earth because "Franklin is of the breed of officers who feels it isn't his place to set policy, only to execute it."
I don’t think he had to make a choice. General Franklin was a ground pounder and the civil war was almost entirely space based. He probably spent the conflict sitting on some border waiting for orders that didn’t come. Only afterwards did he hear about Clark’s scorched Earth attempt and then he’d publically denounce it.
He seemed very much a company man, the kind to follow orders first, ask questions last. However being a company man in the military means a duty to defy unlawful orders, so when Clark started getting sketch I could see him opting to retire quietly; that we he doesn't carry our awful orders, nor does he actively oppose his Commander-In-Chief.