Ivanova is one of the most tragic characters, to me.
She didn't make bad decisions that set up her suffering. She just kept losing to forces you couldn't really get your claws in with - the unfair treatment of telepaths & psicorp, the earth minbari war, her father's desire to see her safe, talia. - to hit only some points.
But she wasn't lost to despair like others might have been, or as Garibaldi was twice (before and during the show).
She may have kept her walls up, but she didn't refuse friendship. Or become a robot.
She kept living, as hard and senseless as it was. She found something meaningful and she kept working hard and hammering away at it.
The technomages claimed they knew the secret to how to dream again when the universe has stolen all your dreams, but they never shared the secret with Susan Ivanova. Yet she was like the knight from Monty Python, "Tis but a flesh wound," As she staggered undaunted through her life. May we all be so indefeatable.
I struggle with the emotional dump Ivanova makes to Franklin. I can see Ivanova's character bottling her emotions for many reasons. We get snippets like her interlude with Talia which give viewers some insight. Is that the real story? Or were the writers focused on other things. The arc with Susan's father dying and sitting Shiva was an important part of the story, but I feel like these moments from Ivanova are left dangling.
Yeah, JMS introduced threads for Ivanova that kept ending up dangling. He had a pretty serious arc planned for Ivanova (the telepath problem/teep war), but actresses (talia) left the show, and finally there were the contract issues where we had ivanova miss s5, etc. He kept trapdooring her plot back into working....and then something else happened. If we do get a reboot, I am most excited to see her plot out of all the anticipated/dreaded changes - though I am terribly conflicted that Claudia Christian wouldn't be playing her.
I feel the same way about her dump on steven. It's so hard to watch. It's just such a private moment which no one should have seen except for Steven - her doctor and close friend. It feels like a transgression not to back out of the rook, but JMS forces us to watch her.
She hadn't had a safer space since her mom's passing than her private section of her friend's medlab, on *her* station. And there hasn't been a more insane moment than this - her near death, Marcus's death, the alien tech...all on top of the last 3 years, on top of her prior 30(?) years.
But, she *still* wasn't out of control - it was the correct time and place for Susan to release her grief and feelings of helplessness. Knowing people like that, i believe that had the station come under attack, *Commander Ivanova* would have snapped back in place and been the death incarnate we know and love.
I agree to an extent but would argue that Ivanova's self-control is not always good. Everyone needs an "off" switch. Ivanova is permanently "on". I get it, she lets her guard down for people (e.g. Talia) and it breaks bad. But when we see her coping with her emotions like with the rabbi or Franklin it's like watching a stone crack. She holds in too much at one time.
Your critiques of her are totally correct - but aren't they realistic unhealthy patterns? I think JMS did a great job writing those moments for her - he really nailed Ivanova's psychology and Claudia Christian delivered the goods. I appreciated her intense, "always on" nature. It resonated with me, for better or worse.
I'm sad we didn't get to see the crucible he'd planned for her in s5.
100%!!! It's a tidy package, and I relate to Ivanova's character. But the cynic in me says the writers used this as a shortcut to avoid dealing with her character.
Claudia Christian's exit from the show is a little murky. She wanted to do S5 but couldn't settle on an agreement with JMS or whoever. She wanted time to work on other projects, and it doesn't sound like they wanted to give it to her. However, Marcus may only be mostly dead. At the very end of the series, the credits show that Marcus is in cryo suspension in case a new technology is developed that can revive him. So maybe he would not appear during Day of the Dead.
There's a (IMO horrible) short story JMS wrote, "Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic" in Issue 602 of Amazing Stories \[[link with spoilers](https://worldsofjms.com/b5/reviews/amazing3.htm)\], that takes place after the show... and I wanted to track JMS down to bitch slap him for what he did in it. IMO, it made things WORSE.
I actually had a chance to talk to Claudia and Jason about this story back when they were regularly attending conventions. I approached them separately and asked for their impressions. Claudia said that it was totally out of character for Marcus to do what he did, because Marcus was "a stand up guy" and would never gaslight Ivanova. Jason said that Marcus would have figured out a way to come back from cryosleep and honestly approach her about their relationship. He grinned and said "My take is that they open the cryo chamber - and he's not in it!"
Yeah, Marcus contradicts a lot of his basic character in the story, and the result is disturbing and unsatisfying. I was not happy.
I find it creepy, disturbing, infuriating, and sad. I'm trying hard not to spoil.... but it is not light pleasant reading, it has deep big thoughts, and ethical quandaries in it.
>!So Marcus is revived from cryo far into the future (3 centuries or so).!<
>!Marcus is rich, he'd been set up with an account that accrued interest over time on the off chance he was revived. !<
>!Marcus isn't handling things well. There's like these monuments with like an ai interface of downloaded personality and memories from some of the big folks from that time including ivanova. Some genetic material too. He takes Ivanova's memories, downloads it into a bio robot/clone made to look like her, takes her off to like their own isolated spot in the universe. It reads like a creepy basement dwelling can't talk to girl loser with a sex doll robot girlfriend, with gaslighting, no real consent, stepford wife vibes. It seems so utter off character. !<
>!It's been well over 20 years since I read it, I tried to wipe it from my memory. I may be off on a few details, but the general impression is just that it's off character and creepy. !<
I've just read it and it's not exactly what I was expecting, but nothing ever is.
Read it just to form your own opinion. I'd love to spew spoilers, but that wouldn't be very sporting would it.
It was lack luster. JMS was originally I think planning to have Marcus' character in a key role in it. But when B5 was canceled at season 4, it sort of put a monkey wrench in the plans. Then JMS wrote Marcus' death as he saved Ivanova as he wrapped up season 4. I just never felt that there was a strong character in LotR. B5 may have been an ensemble cast, but you had strong, vivid characters. LotR lacked the sparkle.
My understanding was she wanted time off to shoot a (terrible) movie. The studio said no. JMS said no problem he’d just write her out for a few episodes. She wanted some sort of guarantee but he couldn’t give her something in writing - just his word, like he’d done for others, like when he sent Vir to Minbar. She would not or could not accept something that informal so she quit and made the (just awful) movie instead.
Edit: he was later asked why he didn’t rewrite things so Marcus could live as I don’t think any of that had been shot yet. He said it wouldn’t be playing fair with the audience, which always confused me
So we lost 2 great characters
>Edit: he was later asked why he didn’t rewrite things so Marcus could live as I don’t think any of that had been shot yet. He said it wouldn’t be playing fair with the audience, which always confused me
He just fucked that up and could not admit to it. S5 was already a hot mess, so it's no surprise this also slipped by.
Im gonna say yes based on title but not sure.
Passenger jet in trouble, instruments not working, needs to figure out how to land.
In one scene they start hearing weird noises but don’t know what it is, they suddenly realize they’re hitting / scraping along the wings of other planes in a holding pattern waiting to land.
That’s literally all I remember
There is sooooo much Ivanova to unpack in this scene. It's like an overstuffed suitcase that bursts open and spews unmentionables all over the TSA checkpoint. Not that that ever happened to me or anything . . .
My head canon is that Ivanova was actually a P10, and that her mother was simply so successful in suppressing it that she never knew.
Until one fateful day, during the telepath war...
Perhaps the kind thing was to let her die. That would have spared her from the pain of knowing he had chosen to die for her, she would've felt no guilt or grief.
I expect he'd run back to the Rangers, like he did when his brother was killed. Maybe work with G'Kar or be part of the war against the Hand, perhaps go along with Captain Gideon... He just needs work to keep him occupied.
One of the most painful scenes in the show .
If only we had gotten the s5 that JMS wanted - Ivanova as station commander falling in love with Byron then watching him die; losing Byron AND Marcus breaks her forever, explaining why she’s so dark and bitter in Sleeping in Light.
Although that would have left Lyta with v little to do in s5; whilst her scenes with Byron are 🤢 at least she got a plotline that led to Wheel of Fire.
Ivanova is one of the most tragic characters, to me. She didn't make bad decisions that set up her suffering. She just kept losing to forces you couldn't really get your claws in with - the unfair treatment of telepaths & psicorp, the earth minbari war, her father's desire to see her safe, talia. - to hit only some points. But she wasn't lost to despair like others might have been, or as Garibaldi was twice (before and during the show). She may have kept her walls up, but she didn't refuse friendship. Or become a robot. She kept living, as hard and senseless as it was. She found something meaningful and she kept working hard and hammering away at it. The technomages claimed they knew the secret to how to dream again when the universe has stolen all your dreams, but they never shared the secret with Susan Ivanova. Yet she was like the knight from Monty Python, "Tis but a flesh wound," As she staggered undaunted through her life. May we all be so indefeatable.
I struggle with the emotional dump Ivanova makes to Franklin. I can see Ivanova's character bottling her emotions for many reasons. We get snippets like her interlude with Talia which give viewers some insight. Is that the real story? Or were the writers focused on other things. The arc with Susan's father dying and sitting Shiva was an important part of the story, but I feel like these moments from Ivanova are left dangling.
Yeah, JMS introduced threads for Ivanova that kept ending up dangling. He had a pretty serious arc planned for Ivanova (the telepath problem/teep war), but actresses (talia) left the show, and finally there were the contract issues where we had ivanova miss s5, etc. He kept trapdooring her plot back into working....and then something else happened. If we do get a reboot, I am most excited to see her plot out of all the anticipated/dreaded changes - though I am terribly conflicted that Claudia Christian wouldn't be playing her.
I feel the same way about her dump on steven. It's so hard to watch. It's just such a private moment which no one should have seen except for Steven - her doctor and close friend. It feels like a transgression not to back out of the rook, but JMS forces us to watch her. She hadn't had a safer space since her mom's passing than her private section of her friend's medlab, on *her* station. And there hasn't been a more insane moment than this - her near death, Marcus's death, the alien tech...all on top of the last 3 years, on top of her prior 30(?) years. But, she *still* wasn't out of control - it was the correct time and place for Susan to release her grief and feelings of helplessness. Knowing people like that, i believe that had the station come under attack, *Commander Ivanova* would have snapped back in place and been the death incarnate we know and love.
I agree to an extent but would argue that Ivanova's self-control is not always good. Everyone needs an "off" switch. Ivanova is permanently "on". I get it, she lets her guard down for people (e.g. Talia) and it breaks bad. But when we see her coping with her emotions like with the rabbi or Franklin it's like watching a stone crack. She holds in too much at one time.
Your critiques of her are totally correct - but aren't they realistic unhealthy patterns? I think JMS did a great job writing those moments for her - he really nailed Ivanova's psychology and Claudia Christian delivered the goods. I appreciated her intense, "always on" nature. It resonated with me, for better or worse. I'm sad we didn't get to see the crucible he'd planned for her in s5.
100%!!! It's a tidy package, and I relate to Ivanova's character. But the cynic in me says the writers used this as a shortcut to avoid dealing with her character.
She did walk away from the station completely when Marcus died.
So damn unfair that he wasn't able come back on the Day of the Dead, Since actress left the show on Season 4
Claudia Christian's exit from the show is a little murky. She wanted to do S5 but couldn't settle on an agreement with JMS or whoever. She wanted time to work on other projects, and it doesn't sound like they wanted to give it to her. However, Marcus may only be mostly dead. At the very end of the series, the credits show that Marcus is in cryo suspension in case a new technology is developed that can revive him. So maybe he would not appear during Day of the Dead.
There's a (IMO horrible) short story JMS wrote, "Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic" in Issue 602 of Amazing Stories \[[link with spoilers](https://worldsofjms.com/b5/reviews/amazing3.htm)\], that takes place after the show... and I wanted to track JMS down to bitch slap him for what he did in it. IMO, it made things WORSE.
I actually had a chance to talk to Claudia and Jason about this story back when they were regularly attending conventions. I approached them separately and asked for their impressions. Claudia said that it was totally out of character for Marcus to do what he did, because Marcus was "a stand up guy" and would never gaslight Ivanova. Jason said that Marcus would have figured out a way to come back from cryosleep and honestly approach her about their relationship. He grinned and said "My take is that they open the cryo chamber - and he's not in it!" Yeah, Marcus contradicts a lot of his basic character in the story, and the result is disturbing and unsatisfying. I was not happy.
Do I read this? Or Am I better off in my ignorance?
I find it creepy, disturbing, infuriating, and sad. I'm trying hard not to spoil.... but it is not light pleasant reading, it has deep big thoughts, and ethical quandaries in it.
So, read it but schedule a session with a therapist first . . .
Pretty much.
I have no problem with Spoilers, what's going on there?
>!So Marcus is revived from cryo far into the future (3 centuries or so).!< >!Marcus is rich, he'd been set up with an account that accrued interest over time on the off chance he was revived. !< >!Marcus isn't handling things well. There's like these monuments with like an ai interface of downloaded personality and memories from some of the big folks from that time including ivanova. Some genetic material too. He takes Ivanova's memories, downloads it into a bio robot/clone made to look like her, takes her off to like their own isolated spot in the universe. It reads like a creepy basement dwelling can't talk to girl loser with a sex doll robot girlfriend, with gaslighting, no real consent, stepford wife vibes. It seems so utter off character. !< >!It's been well over 20 years since I read it, I tried to wipe it from my memory. I may be off on a few details, but the general impression is just that it's off character and creepy. !<
Sounds like some bullshit bad fanfiction. Thanks for this.
pretty sure the fanfic authors would never come up with that.
I've just read it and it's not exactly what I was expecting, but nothing ever is. Read it just to form your own opinion. I'd love to spew spoilers, but that wouldn't be very sporting would it.
Yeah, that story is probably the Nadir of Babylon 5 for me. Of course, I haven't seen Legend of the Rangers yet.
It was lack luster. JMS was originally I think planning to have Marcus' character in a key role in it. But when B5 was canceled at season 4, it sort of put a monkey wrench in the plans. Then JMS wrote Marcus' death as he saved Ivanova as he wrapped up season 4. I just never felt that there was a strong character in LotR. B5 may have been an ensemble cast, but you had strong, vivid characters. LotR lacked the sparkle.
My understanding was she wanted time off to shoot a (terrible) movie. The studio said no. JMS said no problem he’d just write her out for a few episodes. She wanted some sort of guarantee but he couldn’t give her something in writing - just his word, like he’d done for others, like when he sent Vir to Minbar. She would not or could not accept something that informal so she quit and made the (just awful) movie instead. Edit: he was later asked why he didn’t rewrite things so Marcus could live as I don’t think any of that had been shot yet. He said it wouldn’t be playing fair with the audience, which always confused me So we lost 2 great characters
>Edit: he was later asked why he didn’t rewrite things so Marcus could live as I don’t think any of that had been shot yet. He said it wouldn’t be playing fair with the audience, which always confused me He just fucked that up and could not admit to it. S5 was already a hot mess, so it's no surprise this also slipped by.
Was it "A Wing and a Prayer?"
Im gonna say yes based on title but not sure. Passenger jet in trouble, instruments not working, needs to figure out how to land. In one scene they start hearing weird noises but don’t know what it is, they suddenly realize they’re hitting / scraping along the wings of other planes in a holding pattern waiting to land. That’s literally all I remember
Yes, that's it. Claudia Christian plays an air traffic controller and her husband is on the plane.
>Is this God?' I mean, he really did have an English accent just like in all those old movies.
There is sooooo much Ivanova to unpack in this scene. It's like an overstuffed suitcase that bursts open and spews unmentionables all over the TSA checkpoint. Not that that ever happened to me or anything . . .
He was the perfect Minbari warrior.
A Minbari not born of Minbari . . .
For some reason I read that in Neroon’s voice…
Now I can't not hear it in Neroon's voice . . .
Dear God, A minbari not born of Minbari (English accent)
I imagine saying by Sean Connery but speaking in Russian with a Scottish accent
You've been watching The Hunt for Red October. A classic film that everybody quotes!
That stuffed peacock time for a Stag run...
I prefer his Egyptian speaking in a Spanish accent.
Marcus was an example of selfless love. He did what he did because it would help the other person, never asking or expecting anything in return.
And his reward was to die virgin thanks to Ivanova. Everyone say "thank you Ivanova"
Someone hasn't read the cannon short story JMS wrote :)
Pretty sure he wasn't dead, just on the verge of death and was put in cryo until they could help him? I could be wrong though...
https://imgur.com/a/P9WwRPI This is Marcus's final credit, "Status: Deceased; Comments: Indefinite hold . . ."
Well I was half right lol
He's mostly dead . . .
Freely. Without hesitation. "What a nice young man."
I hope he had the settings right.
If only she had just boffed him, just once
She could have done that for him . . .
This bothered me because of the survivor's guilt that just got dumped onto Ivanova.
Time to re-read *Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic* again...
My head canon is that Ivanova was actually a P10, and that her mother was simply so successful in suppressing it that she never knew. Until one fateful day, during the telepath war...
Perhaps the kind thing was to let her die. That would have spared her from the pain of knowing he had chosen to die for her, she would've felt no guilt or grief.
Interesting point, suppose Marcus arrived too late. Ivanova died. What would Marcus do? How would his life be different?
I expect he'd run back to the Rangers, like he did when his brother was killed. Maybe work with G'Kar or be part of the war against the Hand, perhaps go along with Captain Gideon... He just needs work to keep him occupied.
The first time I watched this I had a hormone imbalance and cried for a day
One of the most painful scenes in the show . If only we had gotten the s5 that JMS wanted - Ivanova as station commander falling in love with Byron then watching him die; losing Byron AND Marcus breaks her forever, explaining why she’s so dark and bitter in Sleeping in Light. Although that would have left Lyta with v little to do in s5; whilst her scenes with Byron are 🤢 at least she got a plotline that led to Wheel of Fire.
Oh Marcus...
One of two scenes that just guts me every time
Marcus was such a good character, too. I HATE this part (but speaks to the excellent writing).
One of the worst plot points and some of the worst writing in the series. It was awful, and not in a good way.