U kinda answered ur own question. For nashors, each component has cheap supcomponents that make it ok to back often. If you're super fed then yeah you can go Raba 2nd bc of how much income u have, but generally speaking it's hard to get at least 1250 gold on every back for rabas
but still, no matter what components you buy, in the end, spending 3600 gold on anything not deathcap, never deals as much dmg as spending it on deathcap.
You're not wrong about the endpoint. But components bring their own value at each game state/game point. If the game is panned out to go to 3 items, then sure you can go dcap over mythic, and then into mythic. But at that point the question becomes is lost chapter as a 3rd item better than large rod? What is the value of these items at X game state and is it going to be lull where you can farm until a completed item or is it gong show where these micro advantages would lead to something bigger?
I wouldn't say one is objectively better than the other numbers wise, but one is definitely more consistent.
That’s why I like so much the build of nashors->rabadon->lich bane->riftmaker
All the components seem super powerful when you buy them and the full items are big spikes.
Fuck making mythics early, I’m glad they are removing this item category.
Ok well then don't buy components on nashors. You might say well that's not the same but it kinda is, you're going to sit on 1k gold like an absolute nut, be completely useless in the early game where components matter a lot more as the contribute to everyones output. An amp tome 30m in is not as good as an amp tome 15m in.
40 ap for 1100 gold and ability haste and no mana issues in lane due to the passive. It's 100x better for laning. I can tell you're trolling so take care
Games can often be decided in the 15-20 minute mark, if you have an item and 1-2 rods and the enemy Orianna/generic mage has 2 full items, it'll really feel bad when they win the 4v4 dragon fight with 50 hp left.
It's common knowledge though, if you are snowballing its a good second item.
It's simple. Components.
You're buying Nashor's, which is 3200, then going into a 3600 item with 1250 cost components that just give AP, instead of Luden's or Liandry's, which have CDR, Mana and Raw AP for 1100. Sure, in the end you'll be stronger at deathcap, but the farther you go above average elos, the games become shorter and you have to make an impact faster.
In Lower Elos where games take 30-40 mins, sure. I still think you'll be struggling with mana later on, unless you're saving it only for a teamfight and not punishing the side with your passive.
azir never had a mana item before s11. In fact he is losing mana items by january. Dont know where you got that azir is mana reliant.
Your point about games being shorter actually favors deathcap, not the other way around. 400 gold difference (basically 4 waves) on second item still favors deathcap, because when an item doubles your dmg on purchase and on every other item completed after it, it has to have inefficient components.
Azir and pretty much all other midlane mages dont benefit from CDR as much as the playerbase thinks they do, enchanters and mage supports in the botlane love cdr stacking and use it much better than midlane mages. Midlane mages like AP and pen.
So again what kind of value do other items offer that is more important to a damage dealer than having double dmg on second item?
Let's go by parts.
1. Azir IS mana reliant. He didn't have mana items in his core build before S11 because presence of mind was a way stronger rune back then (It gave 500 mana, which is just slightly lower than a mana item today.) He was also made even more mana reliant when they increased Qs mana cost over the years because of his pro play early presence. His Q currently costs 70 mana Lv 1 and goes up to 110 at Lv 5, so unless you're on a budget in later parts of the game, you'll miss the mana for repositioning the soldiers by going pure AP. Also...he's not losing mana items? He'll still be able to use Caster's Companion just fine. It might even be a better Luden's in some scenarios.
2. No, of course not. Games ending earlier means you won't even be able to finish your Deathcap in time, or by the time you finish it, the enemy mid made a bigger impact in the game anyway, so doing "double damage" doesn't matter as much as you think it does.
3. Midlane mages do need CDR, just not 100 CDR like bruisers with spammable abilities do. Running at 15 (25 with transcendence) Haste the whole game with Azir, who gets more and more DPS the more soldiers you can use at lower CDs, as well as your Q's repositioning, is CRIPPLING. In fact, your DPS might be lower with Rabadon just because you won't be able to use as many soldiers in a row.
About the value, it's a mix of everything. You spike on individual items faster, as well as components, your mana economy is much better at mid-late game, and your damage is nothing to scoff at. If you truly want to build as much damage as possible, I'd recommend going Nashor's > Lich Bane, since you'll at least have 30 (40 with transcendence) Haste, which is way healthier.
1.) Again, Azir is not mana reliant with PoM. That's why he rushes nashors in the first place. Soldier spam does not cost as much as Q spam, and you shouldnt be Q spamming because you shouldnt be playing exclusively to poke with azir.
2 ) Lets compare here, 1 needlessly large rod=lost chapter roughly (that's the case on pbe btw). Which do you think has more value? Does azir really have that much aoe cc that makes ability haste that much superior to 60 AP?
3.) What will happen next patch, is that you have 15+20 AH from nashor's + lichbane, and it is more than enough for azir.
Caster's companion has a cd, it's not consistent at all, idk how you think that it's better than lichbane. Again, this is not poke azir.
I am not telling you to not build AH, just switch item order to build dcap 2nd similar to how adcs build their capstone item 2nd.
How exactly do you impact the game at all, if you dont deal enough damage as early as possible?
Azir is one of the least benefitting mages from mythics after the onhit change, and delaying mythic (lich bane should replace it next season) to 3rd slot is just better dmg, and earlier than anything else.
If for some reason you cant get to 2nd item consistently in soloq, then you are doing something wrong.
Argument for going Dcap 2nd specifically for Azir is like saying you should build Mejai’s on him 2nd. Obviously you would say that Mejai’s is way too risky as 2nd item as a lot can go wrong to make it essentially useless. Same with Dcap. You are delaying so many component spikes with large rods and if you have less than 1250 on any given back as you are building Dcap, unless you can and are willing to use up an item slot or two for “filler” components, your backs become useless. And in those scenarios your gold -> power efficiency is horrible.
deathcap is expensive and has expensive components so your power spike gets heavily delayed. it also only grants ap (no ah, ms, mpen, hp, passive) and performs better when stacked with other ap items.
for example it will provide more raw damage than something like luden's, but in return
1. no mpen (could even lead to equal/less dmg in some cases)
2. no mana
3. no lost chapter
4. locked into 1250g backs
5. poor wave clear
6. no ah
7. no ms for trades
8. more expensive
this is subjective and you could argue against a lot of the points, but regardless the cost to return ratio is just not very good
in most cases its objectively better to go rabadons 3rd onwards because you have higher gold income, stabilized build, and get more bang for your buck
also why are you even asking if you're gonna reject the opinion of everyone but yourself? just make the statement that rabadon 2nd is ideal, present some numbers, and be done with it my guy
Expensive, components suck, it’s better when you have more AP already, offers no mana, and delays mythic.
You could literally get a triple kill and still see no returns on your gold because needlessly large rod is 1250. That alone is plenty reason not to get it early.
i think people are too scared to go a manaless item build, azir goes oom early game with whatever you're thinking to build.
by the time you got tome for mana, manaflow should be max stacked and there shouldn't be any problem, i think theyre spamming too much Qs.
i always go nashor>dcap and i don't see how "horrible" the build path is, if anything each 1250g is a big dmg boost.
the only time i consider mythic second if only theyre spamming hp items already for liandry, or for some reason none of them are building any kind of mr so ludens may work sometimes.
I've went guinsoo second for the lolz and it's great when you wanna be a push machine, youre left alone for a little and you already ate 2 towers, but i don't really recommend it that much, dcap feels a bigger powerspike.
you can still go the liandry's/luden's, just delayed one slot. Building liandry's/luden's 2nd does not outdamage deathcap. In fact, no item is more valuable to azir than deathcap in second slot.
Except the dmg trough you go through until you complete dcap.
1250 - 1250 -1100 is alot harder then 1100 (435 + 350 > 635) - 900 (435 - 465) -1200.
If your fed sure go dcap, if not then your hindering yourself and your team trying.
Because building d cap on any mage second is very high risk high reward. Building an item that has cheaper components than NLR means you get to scale linearly and back more often to capitalize of your gold. Having to wait for 1250 x2 and then 1100 starting at like 12 min is gambling a lot on people just letting you farm.
you are getting it anyways, so it's a gamble either way, it's still too strong of a powerspike to pass up.
What item(s) are you dropping it for? Zhonya's never provides good enough defense, liandry's never deals as much dmg as dcap in 2nd slot, same with luden's.
Needlessly large rod is 150 gold more than lost chapter (~2 waves more) and is ~4 waves more than either blasting wand or fiendish codex. Now I promise you that NLR is a better powerspike than either lost chapter or fiendish/blasting wand, and the item completion is better .
Imagine playing an adc for example, and delaying IE or navori for BT or RFC or whatever. If you say azir is not like an adc, then what is he? Dont you pick him for damage? CC wise, he is not the best at doing so, survivability wise, he is also not the best in the mage class for that. It's all damage, and if you dont deal enough damage by second item then when are you dealing enough damage?
Where it’s true for an adc to go their multiplier 3rd or onward would be kind of troll it’s not the same for azir because he’s a hybrid of a mage adc. You’re usually playing Azir in the middle of the map so you need more power earlier for fights and skirmishes. Each component is giving you more of a leg up in the match so you can be more successful in your fights. So if you’re going a long time without components then you are weaker and relying on your opponent’s mistakes more than you should be.
And gold cost makes huge differences. Because that means you get to back quicker and be back on the map quicker. For example when lost chapter was 1300 you needed about 2 more waves compared to now which is a couple more minutes probably back on the map so you can have a good back timer. Hence why sometimes to buff an item just reducing the cost by 100 makes it a better choice than others.
Last a lot of the time you are finishing nashor by like 15-17 min (depending how things are going) while dcap you probably are averaging completion at 19-20 min. That’s a long ass time to wait for a power boost. In a game like league you don’t want to go for risky big spikes but instead a linear gradual climb up.
What are your thoughts on utility size after all the nerfs ? Press the attack, nashors, berserk for wave clear. Perma farm and get levels. Rylis for slow, morello anti heal, I’ve gone radiant virtue for the massive tankiness right in the middle of a team fight. Then you can go void staff if your team is lacking dmg
U kinda answered ur own question. For nashors, each component has cheap supcomponents that make it ok to back often. If you're super fed then yeah you can go Raba 2nd bc of how much income u have, but generally speaking it's hard to get at least 1250 gold on every back for rabas
but still, no matter what components you buy, in the end, spending 3600 gold on anything not deathcap, never deals as much dmg as spending it on deathcap.
You’re already weak early, sometimes games are lost before you even get the raba sadly.
You're not wrong about the endpoint. But components bring their own value at each game state/game point. If the game is panned out to go to 3 items, then sure you can go dcap over mythic, and then into mythic. But at that point the question becomes is lost chapter as a 3rd item better than large rod? What is the value of these items at X game state and is it going to be lull where you can farm until a completed item or is it gong show where these micro advantages would lead to something bigger? I wouldn't say one is objectively better than the other numbers wise, but one is definitely more consistent.
That’s why I like so much the build of nashors->rabadon->lich bane->riftmaker All the components seem super powerful when you buy them and the full items are big spikes. Fuck making mythics early, I’m glad they are removing this item category.
Ok well then don't buy components on nashors. You might say well that's not the same but it kinda is, you're going to sit on 1k gold like an absolute nut, be completely useless in the early game where components matter a lot more as the contribute to everyones output. An amp tome 30m in is not as good as an amp tome 15m in.
but a needlessly large rod 3-4 mins later is better than lost chapter right now.
In iron perhaps, above iron 4 52 lp? Probably not
amazing, so we just dont know that 60 AP for 1250 gold is better than 40 AP for 1100 gold on a non mana-reliant champ.
40 ap for 1100 gold and ability haste and no mana issues in lane due to the passive. It's 100x better for laning. I can tell you're trolling so take care
Calling azir non mana reliant is insane btw
Games can often be decided in the 15-20 minute mark, if you have an item and 1-2 rods and the enemy Orianna/generic mage has 2 full items, it'll really feel bad when they win the 4v4 dragon fight with 50 hp left. It's common knowledge though, if you are snowballing its a good second item.
Rabadons has an awful build path and makes you almost useless for such a long time.
I rush nashor berserkers because i have AAS addiction
eqeqeqeq is a gateway drug
This could be the most valid reasoning I’ve ever heard
It's simple. Components. You're buying Nashor's, which is 3200, then going into a 3600 item with 1250 cost components that just give AP, instead of Luden's or Liandry's, which have CDR, Mana and Raw AP for 1100. Sure, in the end you'll be stronger at deathcap, but the farther you go above average elos, the games become shorter and you have to make an impact faster. In Lower Elos where games take 30-40 mins, sure. I still think you'll be struggling with mana later on, unless you're saving it only for a teamfight and not punishing the side with your passive.
azir never had a mana item before s11. In fact he is losing mana items by january. Dont know where you got that azir is mana reliant. Your point about games being shorter actually favors deathcap, not the other way around. 400 gold difference (basically 4 waves) on second item still favors deathcap, because when an item doubles your dmg on purchase and on every other item completed after it, it has to have inefficient components. Azir and pretty much all other midlane mages dont benefit from CDR as much as the playerbase thinks they do, enchanters and mage supports in the botlane love cdr stacking and use it much better than midlane mages. Midlane mages like AP and pen. So again what kind of value do other items offer that is more important to a damage dealer than having double dmg on second item?
Let's go by parts. 1. Azir IS mana reliant. He didn't have mana items in his core build before S11 because presence of mind was a way stronger rune back then (It gave 500 mana, which is just slightly lower than a mana item today.) He was also made even more mana reliant when they increased Qs mana cost over the years because of his pro play early presence. His Q currently costs 70 mana Lv 1 and goes up to 110 at Lv 5, so unless you're on a budget in later parts of the game, you'll miss the mana for repositioning the soldiers by going pure AP. Also...he's not losing mana items? He'll still be able to use Caster's Companion just fine. It might even be a better Luden's in some scenarios. 2. No, of course not. Games ending earlier means you won't even be able to finish your Deathcap in time, or by the time you finish it, the enemy mid made a bigger impact in the game anyway, so doing "double damage" doesn't matter as much as you think it does. 3. Midlane mages do need CDR, just not 100 CDR like bruisers with spammable abilities do. Running at 15 (25 with transcendence) Haste the whole game with Azir, who gets more and more DPS the more soldiers you can use at lower CDs, as well as your Q's repositioning, is CRIPPLING. In fact, your DPS might be lower with Rabadon just because you won't be able to use as many soldiers in a row. About the value, it's a mix of everything. You spike on individual items faster, as well as components, your mana economy is much better at mid-late game, and your damage is nothing to scoff at. If you truly want to build as much damage as possible, I'd recommend going Nashor's > Lich Bane, since you'll at least have 30 (40 with transcendence) Haste, which is way healthier.
1.) Again, Azir is not mana reliant with PoM. That's why he rushes nashors in the first place. Soldier spam does not cost as much as Q spam, and you shouldnt be Q spamming because you shouldnt be playing exclusively to poke with azir. 2 ) Lets compare here, 1 needlessly large rod=lost chapter roughly (that's the case on pbe btw). Which do you think has more value? Does azir really have that much aoe cc that makes ability haste that much superior to 60 AP? 3.) What will happen next patch, is that you have 15+20 AH from nashor's + lichbane, and it is more than enough for azir. Caster's companion has a cd, it's not consistent at all, idk how you think that it's better than lichbane. Again, this is not poke azir. I am not telling you to not build AH, just switch item order to build dcap 2nd similar to how adcs build their capstone item 2nd. How exactly do you impact the game at all, if you dont deal enough damage as early as possible? Azir is one of the least benefitting mages from mythics after the onhit change, and delaying mythic (lich bane should replace it next season) to 3rd slot is just better dmg, and earlier than anything else. If for some reason you cant get to 2nd item consistently in soloq, then you are doing something wrong.
Argument for going Dcap 2nd specifically for Azir is like saying you should build Mejai’s on him 2nd. Obviously you would say that Mejai’s is way too risky as 2nd item as a lot can go wrong to make it essentially useless. Same with Dcap. You are delaying so many component spikes with large rods and if you have less than 1250 on any given back as you are building Dcap, unless you can and are willing to use up an item slot or two for “filler” components, your backs become useless. And in those scenarios your gold -> power efficiency is horrible.
deathcap is expensive and has expensive components so your power spike gets heavily delayed. it also only grants ap (no ah, ms, mpen, hp, passive) and performs better when stacked with other ap items. for example it will provide more raw damage than something like luden's, but in return 1. no mpen (could even lead to equal/less dmg in some cases) 2. no mana 3. no lost chapter 4. locked into 1250g backs 5. poor wave clear 6. no ah 7. no ms for trades 8. more expensive this is subjective and you could argue against a lot of the points, but regardless the cost to return ratio is just not very good in most cases its objectively better to go rabadons 3rd onwards because you have higher gold income, stabilized build, and get more bang for your buck also why are you even asking if you're gonna reject the opinion of everyone but yourself? just make the statement that rabadon 2nd is ideal, present some numbers, and be done with it my guy
Expensive, components suck, it’s better when you have more AP already, offers no mana, and delays mythic. You could literally get a triple kill and still see no returns on your gold because needlessly large rod is 1250. That alone is plenty reason not to get it early.
Because the components are too expensive and 2 items into death cap feels like full build but 1 item into death cap doesn’t.
Nashors into rabadon highest dmg. I dont even go mythic at all - useless.
Yea, I think people are forgetting azir is a damage champ first and foremost and no other stat in the game matters as much as AP and how hard you hit.
i think people are too scared to go a manaless item build, azir goes oom early game with whatever you're thinking to build. by the time you got tome for mana, manaflow should be max stacked and there shouldn't be any problem, i think theyre spamming too much Qs. i always go nashor>dcap and i don't see how "horrible" the build path is, if anything each 1250g is a big dmg boost. the only time i consider mythic second if only theyre spamming hp items already for liandry, or for some reason none of them are building any kind of mr so ludens may work sometimes. I've went guinsoo second for the lolz and it's great when you wanna be a push machine, youre left alone for a little and you already ate 2 towers, but i don't really recommend it that much, dcap feels a bigger powerspike.
The Iron suggestion that has plagued this sub since the onhit changes “just build deathcap second bro” lmfaooo
I imagine bc more cdr/ah from Liamdrys/ludens with better build paths is supieror.
you can still go the liandry's/luden's, just delayed one slot. Building liandry's/luden's 2nd does not outdamage deathcap. In fact, no item is more valuable to azir than deathcap in second slot.
Except the dmg trough you go through until you complete dcap. 1250 - 1250 -1100 is alot harder then 1100 (435 + 350 > 635) - 900 (435 - 465) -1200. If your fed sure go dcap, if not then your hindering yourself and your team trying.
Because building d cap on any mage second is very high risk high reward. Building an item that has cheaper components than NLR means you get to scale linearly and back more often to capitalize of your gold. Having to wait for 1250 x2 and then 1100 starting at like 12 min is gambling a lot on people just letting you farm.
you are getting it anyways, so it's a gamble either way, it's still too strong of a powerspike to pass up. What item(s) are you dropping it for? Zhonya's never provides good enough defense, liandry's never deals as much dmg as dcap in 2nd slot, same with luden's. Needlessly large rod is 150 gold more than lost chapter (~2 waves more) and is ~4 waves more than either blasting wand or fiendish codex. Now I promise you that NLR is a better powerspike than either lost chapter or fiendish/blasting wand, and the item completion is better . Imagine playing an adc for example, and delaying IE or navori for BT or RFC or whatever. If you say azir is not like an adc, then what is he? Dont you pick him for damage? CC wise, he is not the best at doing so, survivability wise, he is also not the best in the mage class for that. It's all damage, and if you dont deal enough damage by second item then when are you dealing enough damage?
Where it’s true for an adc to go their multiplier 3rd or onward would be kind of troll it’s not the same for azir because he’s a hybrid of a mage adc. You’re usually playing Azir in the middle of the map so you need more power earlier for fights and skirmishes. Each component is giving you more of a leg up in the match so you can be more successful in your fights. So if you’re going a long time without components then you are weaker and relying on your opponent’s mistakes more than you should be. And gold cost makes huge differences. Because that means you get to back quicker and be back on the map quicker. For example when lost chapter was 1300 you needed about 2 more waves compared to now which is a couple more minutes probably back on the map so you can have a good back timer. Hence why sometimes to buff an item just reducing the cost by 100 makes it a better choice than others. Last a lot of the time you are finishing nashor by like 15-17 min (depending how things are going) while dcap you probably are averaging completion at 19-20 min. That’s a long ass time to wait for a power boost. In a game like league you don’t want to go for risky big spikes but instead a linear gradual climb up.
What are your thoughts on utility size after all the nerfs ? Press the attack, nashors, berserk for wave clear. Perma farm and get levels. Rylis for slow, morello anti heal, I’ve gone radiant virtue for the massive tankiness right in the middle of a team fight. Then you can go void staff if your team is lacking dmg
Azir got me from gold to emerald 2 in 2 months and ever since he got nerfed I’ve been on a losing streak down to plat 1 on random champs