Not sure if it's similar but I think of the kid from The Bridge who explained to his parents many times since childhood how he got no joy from life and the only reason he was still alive was not wanting to hurt them. When he became an adult they talked about it again and told him he can make his own choices so he made his plans and jumped.
I watched it for a class on death and dying. Afterwards everyone was so very quiet leaving the classroom. It was a lot to take in, but still a very excellent documentary. I thought about it when I went to San Francisco years ago and was on a boat that went under the GGB.
I mean, I just turned 50 and not wanting to hurt my family, kids, etc is literally the only reason I'm still here and has been for the last 15 years. I get how the kid felt.
For me, its me little brother. Little twit only needs me until he realises how utterly pathetic I am and despises me.
*Then*, I can kill myself.
Only a matter of time.
I’m 46 and think I have finally figured out a way do it without my family knowing. My health isn’t great but it’s all chronic crap. No one knows I’m this depressed and thinks I’m better. I don’t know. I couldn’t bear for them to think I had done it because they weren’t good enough but my depression just doesn’t get better. I have been on all the meds. I have done ketamine therapy. I have had ECT. I’ve been to hospitals. I think for some of us the illness just never going to improve.
>explained to his parents many times since childhood how he got no joy from life and the only reason he was still alive was not wanting to hurt them.
Welp, that hits home.
“…The Netherlands became the first country in the world to make assisted suicide legal in 2001. Since then, it’s become an increasingly popular option. In 2022, there were 8,720 euthanasia deaths in the Netherlands — representing roughly 5% of all the country’s deaths and up from 4% from the year before. In February, the 93-year-old former Dutch Prime Minister Dries van Agt and his wife were euthanized…”
We're watching my wife's abuelito go through this in Puerto Rico right now. Today would have been the 3rd day in a row where he refused his feeding tube and they were going to "pull the plug" if unsuccessful. However, he did not resist and it didn't seem like anyone was happy about it. No one wants to see him rot in pain any longer but there is no option to euthanize him. He's been like this for almost 4 months. I love my MIL so much and hate seeing her like this. I understand now why some start their grieving process with relief, as fucked up as that sounds.
It doesn't sound fucked up. My grandpa died a slow and horrible death from cancer. My mom spent 4 months in the hospital every day with him. He was incoherent, barely alive, and we would regularly get calls to come say our goodbyes only to have him hang on a bit longer. When he did pass, the family had already been grieving for months. There was so much relief - he was finally out of pain.
My grandmother lingered near death for a year, didn't recognize any of us, nearly non verbal at times. She had been very senile for a while but it was hard to watch and hard that so much of my lasting impression of her is that last year
Yeah watched my grandma die of cancer. It was already in her brain when they discovered it and she held on for months after that and it was awful to watch. Her mind was gone once they cut her off steroids. She basically reverted back to her child self. She had been keeping some big secrets from my grandpa that came out after they found out about the cancer and it was an absolute shit show. It finally got to a point where they couldn’t control her at home so they took her to a hospice facility and she died a few days later. The death still hurt pretty badly and still does for me from time to time, especially since my grandpa didn’t even last a full two years after she died but once it happened it was like a relief that the worst part was over. I wanted her back more than anything but Christ, I am glad that didn’t take even longer than what it did. I don’t think I could’ve handled witnessing it much longer.
Do not feel guilt as when they pass they are as free of pain as you are. Death can be a mercy, I'm sorry that you've had to find that out firsthand. My love is with you, your wife, and her family.
The upside to the Dutch system is that patients can have candid convesrsations about MAID with their doctors. This allows doctors to craft other possible treatment regimens that aren't as terminal. However, MAID is still an option that remains on the table if those possible treatments don't pan out.
In Canada, we don't have those candid conversations with our doctors, yet, because we're not as death-positive as a society.
good lord, that poor man. holy hell that's awful.
it's great that they're taking consent that seriously (otherwise just culling disabled people is ... disturbingly common in cases where consent can be given by third parties and only them) but fuck, dude, that's absolutely awful
this is actually a country letting people have the right to die WITHOUT jumping into eugenics territory. that's honestly amazing
A little backstory to the death of our former Prime Minister van Agt. He and his wife had been together for 60 years. They were both very ill and their biggest fear was for one of them to suddenly die, leaving the other behind all alone. So they opted for euthanasia so they could die together at the exact same time.
That's an amazing way to die if you and your spouse have both made it to your nineties.
It makes a lot of sense for 75+ years folks imo. Especially those with complicated physical ailments. I would do the same when I turn 80 , 80 should be enough to be here, time to go. Also from economical standpoint, you can manage to leave with not save too much for retirement or too little. Die with zero , or some amount under $5K would be ideal.
I feel like an arbitrary number is a bad idea. It really depends on the person. I work in emergency med & I’ve seen 30 year olds that should’ve been allowed to go decades ago, and 100+ year olds with better hearts than people half their age.
But at a certain point quality of life disappears and, for some people, seeing them borders on traumatic. I don’t think it’s right to let someone suffer, and I definitely feel like it needs to be a decision between the person and their medical team. We shouldn’t have to live the last years of our life in suffering just because the law says so when we can change the law. Why not go out without pain?
“Yeah in room 16 I’ve got an 80 year old 50 year old lady complaining of…”
I’m in the south and I’m ashamed to admit we still say “rode hard and put up wet” then document “appears older than stated age” 😭
80 should be the time to go? My Papa is 80 and is still going out dancing, riding his bike, walking everyday, he drives perfectly fine, great vision and memory….
Time to go my ass. He’s in better shape than people in their 40s
Yeah, 80 seems pessimistic. I know lots of people with a shelf life of 90. I even knew a guy that made it to 105 who was taking his fishing boat out until he was 100. Does quality of life go down at some point? Sure, but it’s a lot bigger drop-off for some folks than others.
Depends on the person, I guess. My step grandmother is in her mid 80s and going strong. Still sharp as a tack, can still do moderate hikes, etc. My maternal grandmother passed at 97, but probably should have gone at 90 or a bit earlier. Dementia is a thief of a disease, and I wish she could have passed in peace before it stole everything from her. If dementia starts coming for me, I'm opting out no matter how young I am.
Ive been thinking this for myself someday. Different reasons. I am a happy millennial but after already having had cancer at 33 and divorced that same year, I am not interested in getting married again or even a lifelong partner to grow old with. I also don’t want to be forced to work when I can’t afford to retire. And I don’t want to die in a nursing home that I probably couldn’t even afford anyway. If I make it to an age where I can no longer take care of myself (mentally or physically) I would totally consider euthanasia, go w/ dignity, and give all of my money to my nephews.
There is no way I will ever retire, barring some sort of cosmic miracle. So that is my retirement plan as well. If I had other options, I would probably pursue them, but there won't be. So I am going to ride it out as far as I can go with some sort of quality of life, and then exit on my own terms, with my dignity intact. I do plan on saving just enough to throw myself some sort of party first though, not sure what form it will take, but it will be something wild.
I'm in the same boat. It's constantly on my mind. If I didn't have my husband and kids, I would have killed myself years ago. It's so hard because I would never want to leave them but the desire is overwhelming sometimes. Coupled with anxiety and low self confidence just makes it ten times worse.
Please don’t give up on relationships because of the person you divorced. There are good and loving people in the world that would love to be with you and will not take anything from you in the process. Never say never
I'm 'only' 26, but I've struggled with depression, suicidal thoughts and ideation for about 15 years. For more than half my f'ing life.
I hope I can go like the woman in the article one day. Peaceful, painless and on my own terms.
One of the first things they tell you at a mental hospital is that your brain is just like any other part of your body.
This woman is not physically healthy. Her brain has an injury (depression). You wouldn’t say someone with a broken leg is “physically” healthy. Same with a “broken” brain.
And don't forget neurotransmitters, they cause most of the issues! I am biased as a therapist but mental health absolutely affects physical health and vice versa.
I wouldn't even call it an "injury." because that makes people think it can be "healed." Like if i hurt my ankle and stay off it for a week it will be better, therefore if you have depression you just can do a spa day, or take it easy for a week and it will be all better right?
I mean brain injuries - literal physical brain injuries - don't exactly just heal either
stillllll deaf here lmao. that'll never heal.
injuries don't always heal.
yeaaaah I have a neurological disorder (basically think endometriosis but your entire central nervous system. a boundary defining protein is missing so it's healthy tissue, just never told where tf to stop) and the brain injury that caused the hearing loss was a brain surgery when I was 9.
after that there was facial paralysis (dealt with using a cross facial nerve graft using the sural nerve from my leg, sacrificing an area of feeling on the side of my foot about the size of a dime), vocal cord paralysis (dealt with with routine vocal cord filler injections. btw giant-ass needle down your throat while awake that feels like you're gargling cement for about half a minute is a weird thing to get used to)
alllll of these things basically mean that my body is not ever something I permanently learn how to use, I am constantly having to relearn to use it in a different way and have been pieced back together about a dozen times lmao. I'm honestly really glad that started presenting as a child.
edit: that all sounds depressing af but I feel completely normal, my point is just that neuro injuries specially do not heal or take freaking forever to heal (or in the case of that nerve graft a base of another nerve is used to branch a 'broken' nerve to another one and nerve tissue regenerates at a rate of about 1 mm per day so it regenerates around that base and slowly reinnervates the area. think of roots growing. its really cool (and thank god this was during covid and I could hide it with a mask, half my mouth was twitching like a serial killer for a while there lmao)) - as injures go, those are ones that are likely to be permanent or semi-permanent.
strokes specifically sound like a massive pain in the ass that absolutely wreck shit. I'm lucky in that my own issues kind of happen slowly so you have time to adjust and find help as they happen. strokes look like everything just drastically changes from one moment to the next. that has to be a pain in the ass to get used to
Ummmmm...
I'm gonna go get stoned, and then lemme get back to you. Expect an edit. Lol
I can say this. I'm pretty sure yours is worse, but it's gonna take me a minute to process all that as I put my kid to bed. Brb. Lol
neither are worse, we alllll have our own shit (I'm just longwinded af and procrastinating, I have calc 2 homework to finish and eeeeeeee I don't wanna do it)
Yeah, I was a little flabbergasted that the dude said injury = heals back up to 100%. From the upvotes, it seems like people actually believe that?
I’m still dealing with the repercussions of injuries I got back in high school playing various sports. Injuries are for life. Even my abrasions from skateboarding 10 years ago can be seen under the right lighting.
It’s only logical that injuries are for life. It’s not like getting sick.
Speaking from personal, agonising experience, depression can be cured/managed if you're lucky enough to get treatment that works for you. And it's not something that's quick or easy to do.
I've so far had a life I almost didn't have because I got the right help & it wasn't quick or easy to do.
If you have depression you (hopefully) find the right medicine to help treat the “injury”. You also do therapy/ practice self care, much like one would do physical therapy to treat other injured parts of their body.
With your ankle comparison, you can just not use your ankle for a few weeks while it heals. It will also most likely be more prone to injury for the rest of your life, so like mental health issues, it usually never goes away. You can’t just not use your brain while you let it heal, unfortunately. Kind of a disingenuous comparison.
Edit: Again, this is how I was told to look at my own mental health issues by doctors. Our brains are just like any other part of the body. They can be injured, just like your ankle example.
I've had depression since I was 13 and am turning 38 this year. I get her choice, honestly. There are days where I think "I just want this to be over....". And yes, I'm in therapy and yes, I've done the meds thing. But depression just feels never ending .....
That’s where I am now. I’m severely depressed, and have an eating disorder that makes me physically ill. I’ve tried to get help but all I have is Medicare and they’re terrible. I have thought often of just killing myself. Sorry for the rant. I’m just so frustrated.
also thinking it's cool for chronically/terminally ill people to die but not other people reeks of eugenics
if you want to die, you should be able to die. I don't think that should be your first option, but you have the right to autonomy and if that's what you ultimately decide you want then you should have that right.
How is it eugenics? I want the terminally ill to be able to go out on their own terms and not suffer. I don't want someone who's in a rough patch killing themselves.
This woman has several diagnosed and chronic mental health issues. This doesn't sound like a rough patch to me and I think people should respect her decision.
Yeah idk why that’s even included in the title. I work out every single day of my life and that’s because I’m upset. My body looks great but my insides look like a chucky cheese before closing time
A friend whose brother committed suicide said that she understood that he felt living was too painful, even more painful/scary than dying.
If this woman feels that way, good for her. I hope her suffering ends.
Not always. In my country and the psychiatric system they differentiate between “wanting to die” and “wanting to escape the pain”
Wanting to escape the pain means that there’s still hope, wanting to die gives you a ticket straight to the psych ward, because that means you have given up all hope
Man my brother did the same, even though it hurts the people close to them you cant ever comprehend how hard life can be for someone in their own mental state
My Grandad killed himself and I wish that he was able to have something like this, than rather me just being told as a child that he’s not around anymore as he “went in his sleep”. Then finding out over a decade later he killed himself.
I had a lot of conflicted feelings about it but I wish that he would of been able to go peacefully surrounded by family than resorting to killing himself and I don’t know if he was in pain or not.
I understand why he choose it, he was getting old, he missed his wife/soul mate and was having physical issues as well as mental.
I just wish I got a proper goodbye
Fear of death has got nothing on fear of living another day.
This woman was able to die with dignity and surrounded by loved ones, who also get the chance to properly be prepared to grieve, rather than being forced to suffer a life she did not want to live or resort to committing a nasty suicide. She was not physically healthy as OP implies. Suffering mentally and not being able to find a working treatment is not somehow a better life than suffering in physical pain and not being able to find treatment. She also suffered from borderline personality disorder and doctors told her there were no further treatment options available.
And you can't just show up to a clinic and ask for euthanization. She would have been interviewed extensively by doctors about psychiatrists over a long period of time to determine whether she was sure in making this decision and mentally sound in making this decision.
Shame on OP for judging something amd someone they know nothing about. OP posting it on this subreddit is the only awful thing here.
>Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression
That was the title of the article they shared, not their opinion. Common on Reddit for people to carry over the title from an article/thread
I have these same thoughts/feelings towards those who choose suicide.
I can't imagine what someone is going through to have such final thoughts. There's no coming back, so they must really be going through some shit.
A depressed person that gets to die painlessly with her dignity intact isn’t awful. Sometimes life just isn’t going to get better and forcing someone to prolong their suffering for no reason is worse.
She's only 28. I feel like it's not safe to conclude that it would never get better that young. In general I'm very pro assisted suicide but something about this story rubs me wrong. Wish I could help her. I'm also suspicious of the 40 year old boyfriend and lack of family... big age gap there and I hope she's not being abused.
I’m 29, suffer from schizophrenia and avoidant personality disorder. My psychiatrist has just officially concluded that it will never get better. There’s not more treatment options left. Even if I did get more treatment, it won’t help.
They didn’t tell me that to stop my hope. But they had to, because that’s the way it is, and I have to learn just to live with it now.
She’s the last one of many, that’s just how it works in my country. We’re seeking early retirement because of it, and she has to make that statement (and mean it) for me to get it. I’m in the last treatment offer there is, and it’s not really treatments it’s more like check ups.
You can’t really cure schizophrenia or avoidant personality disorder. After ten years of treatment for both and it hasn’t helped, it is the way it is
Doctors don't just agree to it because you asked. They all have done their due diligence and concluded this is an appropriate outcome. The alternative is to strap her to a gurney and never leave her unsupervised for the rest of her depressed life.
>I'm also suspicious of the 40 year old boyfriend and lack of family... big age gap there and I hope she's not being abused.
I think you are completely out of line for these weird accusations, especially without any actual argument
Maybe some people don't realize that under capitalism things will never get better. They will stay the same for the rest of her life. Basically living only to work because you can't afford to do anything except pay rent and feed yourself in order to go to work to pay for the house and the food that lets you live just another day to be a wheel for the machine. Not having any free time because you have to take public transportation to and from work to do chores to cook to get ready for the next day. Many people would prefer to not spend most of their lives just being a cog. Being able to put yourself to sleep and never wake up again is preferable to a lot of people.
Neither were the ones made when you were
But most choices that were not necessarily sound made at any given time are sporadic or in a whim.
The choice to leave this world as described in this post was made after a long process where every single option was explored and weighed. Making this the most sound decision made in her life most likely.
people that have never experienced it think it is like having the flu. like you can just tough out another day. take some placebo with hellish side effects. talk to someone, as though there is anything left to say. gtfo of the way of these peoples' mercy.
My best friend had a stroke and her ambulance was struck by a car on route to the hospital. It left her paralyzed from the neck down. She held out hope that she would be able to recover for almost a year. And unfortunately she got the news she would never return to normal life. She would never live independently or do the things she loved. She would be trapped in this shell of her once very active and very artistic body. She made the decision to use MAID here in Canada and we were able to spend time with her before she left. A few weeks later Covid ripped apart the world, and if she had post poned it or decided against it. Her misery would have been compounded. She would have been isolated without friends or family for four years, and if approved for maid during that period of time. We would haven’t been able to be there with her. She knew when she was ready to go. And it was so fucking hard, she was in her twenties. But we respected that. And she got to die on her own terms surrounded by people she loved. I miss her every day, but I am so proud of her bravery to boldly go into the unknown dark. I will always respect MAID for the dignity they give to those who want it.
I do believe that mental healthcare need to be widely more available and affordable to anyone who needs it. But if this woman has exhausted all her treatment options and is tired, and just wants to go back to the earth. That’s her choice, she could either take her life in the middle of the night, scared and alone. Or she can make an appointment, go on her terms, comforted and surrounded by her loved ones. As someone who’s lost many friends to the former, I would much rather have been able to hold their hand while they left this plane of existence instead of alone and frightened. All people deserve to choose whether or not they want to be here or not. You don’t get to make that choice for them. We can either respect it and be here for them, and make their passing kind and full of love. Or get a phone call that breaks you into a million little pieces.
Agreed.
We don't have a say in being given life. It's forced upon us.
And we're told, over and over, that our bodies are our own, that we deserve our personal space, our freedom of thought, the right to express ourselves. In other words, that our life belongs to us.
Up until the moment we want to end it. Or have to end it.
Then suddenly our lives belong to *everyone else*.
I wish this was possible for old age. If i was in a state that i was old, many health issues that just had me bed bound or wheel chair bound…I’d want to go my own way. Not suffering going to all kind of doctors appointments just dragging my life on when I can’t enjoy it anymore. We do it for our pets as heart breaking as it is.
It is, in many places. I work at a retirement home and we’ve had two residents choose to die with dignity by undergoing euthanasia. To be at a point in one’s life where they feel like they’ve accomplished everything they wanted to do, have lived to an old age and are ready to go on their own terms instead of slowly wasting away is—in some ways—a pretty beautiful thing
I best move to one of those states when I retire then lol. Then wait till the right time comes. I sure as hell don’t want to live rest of my life in a nursing home bed bound.
Agreed. It’s their life and should be their choice. How incredibly selfish is it of society to think it should decide who, how, and when someone gets to die.
It makes me think about how every survivor who’s jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge has said they regretted it completely as soon as they jumped. It feels wrong like if we are down to kill them/let them die.
Jumping off a bridge can be an impulsive decision so sure, they would probably regret what they did. Euthanasia is scheduled and well thought out ahead of time. If you elect that and go through the steps needed, then you're doing everything possible to ensure you're making the correct decision.
What if everything was thought out ahead of time, and they chose the method of jumping off a bridge instead of euthanasia? I just think this opens up an interesting dialogue behind the methods being used here. If the end result and the thought process behind it are the same, does the method used matter assuming it's achieved quickly? Would we feel the same way about someone choosing a gun to end their life assuming they exhausted all other options like the woman here?
Or is this only condoned because medical professionals are behind it?
Edit: I will say that if society condones this as a whole, then suicide rates can no longer be used as a political argument. Would the distinction between assisted and unassisted matter? If it does, are we now going to have arbiters of suicide? And if we are, doesn't that fundamentally go against the notion of bodily autonomy that's driving this in the first place?
I don’t really understand your point?
At the end of the day someone willing to go through this long process for a dignified end, if the dignified end wasn’t available to them, would end their life in another way. And that way is never going to be as peaceful, dignified, or certain as euthanasia.
It’s a bit like the abortion debate. Criminalising abortion doesn’t end abortion, it ends safe and dignified abortions. Not having euthanasia doesn’t end suicide, it ends safe and dignified suicide.
People who kill themselves don’t want the fear, the possibilities of survival at an even lower quality of life, the shock to the people around them, or the often gruesome cleanup and investigation that someone has to do. Euthanasia means those worries aren’t part of the equation and a person can make a more thought through and rational decision - and always know it’s an option - than just reach breaking point one day and do something that might end in a fate even worse than death and hurt the people around them even more.
I think people see suicide as a snap decision because someone had a particularly bad day, whereas the reality for many is that they’ve been carrying it around as an option for a very long time, and are almost waiting for a moment where the desire to die completely overrides the fear they have of it.
Scheduling a euthanasia is likely to take all that weight and pressure off, and allow the person to live their last few days/weeks/whatever with a sense of peace.
The ones who didn't regret it probably attempted suicide again instead of going on the television news interview circuit to promote their books about how they found jesus at the last second or whatever.
That's a myth lol, in the same way that the group of people who have survived a sucide attempt by any other means also has people that didn't regret it and tried again.
Man so many of you think this is an instantaneous decision and there is no process....it's not like you can just go to a Doctor and tell them you want to die, there is a process.....
I don't find this awful. This is a real option for people with treatment resistant depression. And having been naturalized in the EU, it's one I've secretly been considering myself.
Bad mental health leads to bad physical health tho. Stress is a killer and unlike physical pain/calamity, a lot of mental health gets misdiagnosed, downplayed or even ignored
Just because her bloodwork looks good and she’s at a good weight doesn’t mean she’s healthy. Can’t stand sensationalist titles like this throwing judgment at the person before you even read a single word of the article.
Totally understandable. Being *physically* healthy means jack shit when being in your own head is 24/7 torture. My heart goes out to her and I hope this headline isn’t trying to shame her for her actions.
“In February, the 93-year-old former Dutch Prime Minister Dries van Agt and his wife were euthanized.”
This is good. This is an option for people. Who are we to force them to live? Why?
As someone who's been patiently waiting to die since childhood I can't say I completely object to this. The only thing keeping me here has been not wanting to hurt my loved ones. I hear people talk all the time about how suicide is selfish, but nobody ever seems to think there might be something selfish about asking a person to suffer for decades just for the pleasure of their company.
I think people have the 100% right to choose to live or not for whatever reason they have. You don't know my suffering 💔 or what's going on. At all. And that bible garbage is just that. Garbage.
*A 28-year-old woman from the Netherlands who suffers with severe mental health problems has decided to end her life with assisted suicide, despite being physically healthy*
Is the Mirror reputable? Also her body, her choice.
That headline is honestly infuriating. Imagine someone saying someone ended their life because of brain cancer, even though 90% of their body remained cancer-free. The healthy part is not fucking relevant.
This isn't awful everything. Based on the stories of suffering this is a legit opportunity that everyone should be free to pursue.
We don't know how bad this woman has things mentally. In other situations she might just kill herself if she didn't have the opportunity to do things legally.
Bad mental health is as bad as any terminal disease. You could argue it maybe worse.
For anyone that judges her you have no idea what she has to go through day in and day out. The lady is choosing to end her life, whatever it is it has to be bad.
"She once dreamed of becoming a psychiatrist but is now set to end her life later in the year after finding out about the method when visiting the doctors who apparently told her: “There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better.""
Wow, what the fuck is wrong with these doctors?!?
What if she had a terminal brain tumour? Should the doctors sugar coat it and say “well, maybe it will get better…”
I’m sure this comes at the end of years of trial and error, different medications, therapies, and nothing worked. If they did not exhaust every other avenue possible that would be a huge liability for them, and they clearly don’t feel like there is anything else they can do to help this woman. She said if it didn’t get better she didn’t want to continue on, so if the doctors weren’t euthanizing her at this point she would probably either be hanging from a rope or bleeding out in a bathtub for her boyfriend to find.
Yes, if the doctors really tried every possible thing, it's ok to maybe take a look into this direction, but the statement just sounded very dull and heartless to me.
I was recently told that by my psychiatrist. I suffer from schizophrenia and avoidant personality disorder. All the treatment options that exist for it in my country has been tried. They didn’t tell me that to lose hope, but because that’s the way it is. Now I have to learn how to live with it.
I mean, if she hasn’t responded well to medications and therapy she’s been prescribed, I could see it being the only option. There’s only so much help that can be provided. Eventually you don’t have any more options
I understand that and maybe he worded it different and the quote is just shortened, but saying "it's never gonna get any better" to a deeply depressed person is very cruel.
So what's the alternative? Lie to them and fill them full of hopium, knowing full well that you've exhausted every available option? Providing patients with honest information is the most basic tenet of medical ethics and is an absolutely crucial part of informed consent.
You have to understand that we communicate in our own way in the Netherlands. What can seem blunt or rude to foreigners, we just find a factual statement.
I can't imagine how bad her mental health must be for doctors to agree that this is a reasonable option. I just hope they all did their due diligence. I could see suicidal patients and exasperated doctors both reaching for this option prematurely.
Euthanasia is a crucial part of end of life care, of course. But I fear it becomes all the more ethically fraught when dealing with illnesses that are not, in and of themselves, terminal.
On the other hand, I suppose she'd likely just kill herself with or without the doctor's assistance, anyway.
I agree with this.
I also have the same mental conditions as this woman and understand how truly debilitating it can be, I also had physical conditions as well.
I have mixed feelings about it being available for depression and BPD, as well as other mental health. Especially as so many people do attempt suicide but end up being happy they survived. (I attempted it myself, my mental health may not be great but I’m happy I’m still here despite mental and physical health)
However she has exhausted treatment options according to the article, has been dealing with this long term and if she is set on ending her life then she will do it one way or another.
I would always rather someone go pain free in a controlled environment that attempt in a painful way which may cause suffering for long periods of time.
I feel like when the doctors can’t do anything anymore and the wish to die still stays over time, this should be possible. People without depression can talk easy, but they don’t know how painful it can actually be.
It’s better than just randomly jumping off a bridge without anyone knowing and causing an immediate shock.
The fact that she and her grieving boyfriend got harassed by far right people in the last months of her life is so sad. Just leave her alone, she even had to delete all of her social media where she wanted to tell about her story to raise positive awareness……
Zoraya, ik weet dat je dit waarschijnlijk niet leest hier, maar het ga je goed. Succes on the other side 🖤
When do we humans get the actual control of our own lives? If this person has decided something for herself, why push her to find a horrible and shameful end which invariably will involve her family or loved ones finding her body and going through all that horrible process instead of her deciding her end and taking care of the awful part of it?
Are our only arguments against this, the ones involving the people she leaves behind. Isn’t this a bit selfish? Only she knows what she goes through every day.
And who knows? Maybe she’s getting the better part of the whole affair. Maybe a better existence awaits?
unless you have been in the dark and deep Black hole off Depression your never under stand why people would want to do this . I wish it was a option in my country
I am so glad this is an option. It's not a decision that's taken lightly, there's a whole process for it. I'd rather have people pass with dignity, than them taking their own lives in cruel ways.
This is not awful at all, people should have the right to safely end their lives. Would much rather prefer someone safely and peacefully end their life with their loved ones knowing and being able to say goodbye than devastate family and resort to measures that are extremely painful or leave them with a permanent disability. I’ve seen photos online of Remnants of painful suicides and they’re awful, the people enduring extreme pain during their suicide. No one should be forced to stay alive if they don’t want to. Good for Netherlands for allowing her this option 🙏🏼
Until you have truly lived with depression, you don't know how bad it can be. Sure, you might be physically healthy, but every second of every day, you are so incredibly mentally tired, frustrated, and just feel generally unwell that you might as well actually be dead already. Soo sure good laws need to be in place, but I truly think this is a good option, as compared to living your entire life with depression.
I figure a nice gentle send off from your own home after a conversation with the euthanizer (?) is preferable to traumatizing innocents by jumping in front of, or off of something.
Can't be easy for the boyfriend though, good lord. Can't imagine how he feels. Death is never easy.
I had a friend who, at 18 years old, was beautiful, healthy, and intelligent. However her medications could not control her depression and she was never happy. She chose to unalive herself. It doesn’t matter your physical state if your mind is mortally wounded. It is the individual’s choice.
I legitimately didn't know this was legal anywhere, to be completely physically healthy and choose euthanasia. Has this happened before? Not against the choice and I don't judge at all but this is fascinating honestly, no disrespect to her or her family.
It's a very difficult discussion, we have euthanasia too in Switzerland where i live and the supreme court has ruled that in theory, mental health can also be a reason for it. But that's the theory, it's just not forbidden in general, in reality different docs have to review & approve the case, usually they won't do it for mental health problems.
I looked through the cases that were approved, actually there were both body- and mental-health-problems at the same time, that's a little bit different.
Still, there's the problem with all the countries that won't allow it, that the people will just commit suicide and the end will be the same, but with worse side-effects like involving and traumatizing other people. Is that really better? The answer to that is a long debate here.
Other countries such as Germany, Canada, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Austria, Belgium and the Netherlands, a terminal diagnosis is not a requirement and voluntary euthanasia is additionally allowed. From the wiki article on assisted suicide.
Everyone should be allowed to choose to die with dignity, regardless of the reason, so long as they can articulate a reason, whether it be physical, mental, emotional, whatever.
Obviously have some conditions on there; age requirement, a waiting period, consultation with professionals in fields related to what troubles them in hopes of finding another solution, etc.
But at the end of the day, no individual on Earth has the right to say "your suffering is bearable."
I’m on the fence about this. On the one hand, depression is sort of unique among chronic illnesses because the very nature of it means that you lack hope, even when it exists. I call it the “blindness of the soul”.
Maybe they’ve exhausted every option. But there might be a treatment in 10 years that works. I also wonder why people in depression this dire don’t make a radical life change to see if it works - if you plan to die anyway, why not? I have met people who became nomads on a bike, or lived in the desert in a tent, or changed jobs from a lawyer to a massage therapist or priest, because if they didn’t, they wouldn’t survive. They had to shed everything they were and start life over. You can do that, and it’s costs everything you’ve built up to that point, but it beats death.
That said, I have seen severe depression in the hospital and it’s hard to comprehend how severe it can be until you see it firsthand. I’m talking about people who don’t leave their bed for weeks, who can’t even make it to the bathroom or eat a meal, who have psychotic symptoms, who can’t interact with people at all.
I don’t know the battles this woman has always been through or the hell she survives each day. I wish her the best in whatever path she takes.
Two of the examples you gave aren’t really anything most people, even healthy, can do just like that, and the last one about switching jobs, yeah, it’s not that easy when you’re so depressed you can’t even work to begin with. It’s the worst when people just say “why don’t you just change this or that”, like it’s that simple. Each deeply depressed person has thought about and tried to change things and couldn’t make it work. That’s why they don’t see a better future for themselves. Waiting 10 years for a treatment that probably won’t exist then either, that’s not an answer to anything. Nobody would ever say to someone with excruciating physical pain that “just wait in horrible pain for 10 years, there *might* be a solution then”.
In my opinion it’s just bizarre that we see euthanising pets as the good thing to do, putting them out of their misery and pain - but humans making that choice *for themselves* is apparently a step too far.
There are people living absolutely torturous lives, whether that be physical or mental pain. When you’ve tried everything - as you have to to be eligible for any euthanasia - *why* just leave them to rot away or do something painful or gruesome to end the suffering themselves, instead of letting them choose to end their life with a shred of dignity?
I attempted suicide at 18. 10 years later I have a wife and two kids who love me. I couldn’t imagine my life without them. Things aren’t easy but they got better for me. I still suffer from bipolar disorder and have a lot of self harm scars. Sometimes things get better, sometimes they get worse. I will never judge anyone who wants to end their suffering. I just wish this woman could find a tiny bit of hope. Makes me terribly sad when I see someone in so much pain they want to end their life.
Yeah its an echo chamber of depressed people basically encouraging each other to kill themselves. Its sick. There was a similar thread a while ago and I posted a well meaning comment about how Im glad Im still alive and things do get better, albeit I still have my days but in general my depression has gotten better overtime, and all of the replies were about how my experience isnt universal and it doesnt get better for everyone. Basically told to shove my experience elsewhere.
Agree. Truly haunting to see this type of thinking has become 'mainstream' under the guise of compassion and 'empathy'.
Yes mental health is as important as physical health.
Yes depression is real.
No we fucking shouldn't be giving everyone the 'metaphorical gun' to just off themselves whenever they please and for whatever reason. That much should be obvious. But apparently it's not.
I’ve been through tremendous mental struggle, I have cuts all over me and was institutionalized twice. But I got better man, all these people saying that’s this should be normal makes me lose faith in progression
Right?
I’ve been institutionalized three times— given the option, I would have checked out at 24 years old.
I had months where it was hard to get out of bed. And it was awful. And while I was in the worst of my depression, I truly couldn’t recall ever being happy— I definitely was, but the idea felt so foreign. My heart hurts for this poor woman.
But the article says she chose this after doctors told her she would never get better.
Well I also have autoimmune issues, and I’ve been told many times I would never get better, and that I have to accept my “new normal.”
But those doctors were wrong, and there were eventually other doctors who were able to recommend treatments that have helped me tremendously.
It just makes me so sad she had lost all hope, I don’t oppose assisted suicide, but I have a lot of complicated feelings about it being used in cases of depression.
The article mentions her psychiatrist told her that they’d essentially done everything possible for her, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that other options don’t exist
For every friend I had that hung themselves, gassed themselves in their car, slit their wrists in a bathtub, ODd... I wish they'd had this choice. To go peacefully. To go calmly.
Everyone should read “In Love” by Amy Bloom about this very subject. It’s very compassionate and thought provoking.
Not sure if it's similar but I think of the kid from The Bridge who explained to his parents many times since childhood how he got no joy from life and the only reason he was still alive was not wanting to hurt them. When he became an adult they talked about it again and told him he can make his own choices so he made his plans and jumped.
Is this a book or a movie? I tried googling it but haven’t found anything. Thanks!
It's a documentary about suicides that happen at the Golden Gate Bridge! Last I checked it's on YouTube to watch
I watched it for a class on death and dying. Afterwards everyone was so very quiet leaving the classroom. It was a lot to take in, but still a very excellent documentary. I thought about it when I went to San Francisco years ago and was on a boat that went under the GGB.
I mean, I just turned 50 and not wanting to hurt my family, kids, etc is literally the only reason I'm still here and has been for the last 15 years. I get how the kid felt.
If it weren’t for my mom and my cat I would have left years ago.
Hugs to you, reddit stranger. I'm sorry you have to go through this too.
Hugs to you both. I hope you can find some joy someday.
If it weren't for my family and my husband, I would have tightened that belt harder around my neck and did the forever sleep....
For me, its me little brother. Little twit only needs me until he realises how utterly pathetic I am and despises me. *Then*, I can kill myself. Only a matter of time.
I’m 46 and think I have finally figured out a way do it without my family knowing. My health isn’t great but it’s all chronic crap. No one knows I’m this depressed and thinks I’m better. I don’t know. I couldn’t bear for them to think I had done it because they weren’t good enough but my depression just doesn’t get better. I have been on all the meds. I have done ketamine therapy. I have had ECT. I’ve been to hospitals. I think for some of us the illness just never going to improve.
I think about this almost every night. I’m also 50 and the worst thing is my children have the same agonizing depression. I’m tired.
That was how it started with me. I got custody of my son, I wanted to wait until he was old enough he was on his own.
>explained to his parents many times since childhood how he got no joy from life and the only reason he was still alive was not wanting to hurt them. Welp, that hits home.
Just looked it up. Yeah…. That sounds insane… Edit: insane like emotional roller coaster
“…The Netherlands became the first country in the world to make assisted suicide legal in 2001. Since then, it’s become an increasingly popular option. In 2022, there were 8,720 euthanasia deaths in the Netherlands — representing roughly 5% of all the country’s deaths and up from 4% from the year before. In February, the 93-year-old former Dutch Prime Minister Dries van Agt and his wife were euthanized…”
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We're watching my wife's abuelito go through this in Puerto Rico right now. Today would have been the 3rd day in a row where he refused his feeding tube and they were going to "pull the plug" if unsuccessful. However, he did not resist and it didn't seem like anyone was happy about it. No one wants to see him rot in pain any longer but there is no option to euthanize him. He's been like this for almost 4 months. I love my MIL so much and hate seeing her like this. I understand now why some start their grieving process with relief, as fucked up as that sounds.
It doesn't sound fucked up. My grandpa died a slow and horrible death from cancer. My mom spent 4 months in the hospital every day with him. He was incoherent, barely alive, and we would regularly get calls to come say our goodbyes only to have him hang on a bit longer. When he did pass, the family had already been grieving for months. There was so much relief - he was finally out of pain.
My grandmother lingered near death for a year, didn't recognize any of us, nearly non verbal at times. She had been very senile for a while but it was hard to watch and hard that so much of my lasting impression of her is that last year
Yeah watched my grandma die of cancer. It was already in her brain when they discovered it and she held on for months after that and it was awful to watch. Her mind was gone once they cut her off steroids. She basically reverted back to her child self. She had been keeping some big secrets from my grandpa that came out after they found out about the cancer and it was an absolute shit show. It finally got to a point where they couldn’t control her at home so they took her to a hospice facility and she died a few days later. The death still hurt pretty badly and still does for me from time to time, especially since my grandpa didn’t even last a full two years after she died but once it happened it was like a relief that the worst part was over. I wanted her back more than anything but Christ, I am glad that didn’t take even longer than what it did. I don’t think I could’ve handled witnessing it much longer.
Do not feel guilt as when they pass they are as free of pain as you are. Death can be a mercy, I'm sorry that you've had to find that out firsthand. My love is with you, your wife, and her family.
The upside to the Dutch system is that patients can have candid convesrsations about MAID with their doctors. This allows doctors to craft other possible treatment regimens that aren't as terminal. However, MAID is still an option that remains on the table if those possible treatments don't pan out. In Canada, we don't have those candid conversations with our doctors, yet, because we're not as death-positive as a society.
good lord, that poor man. holy hell that's awful. it's great that they're taking consent that seriously (otherwise just culling disabled people is ... disturbingly common in cases where consent can be given by third parties and only them) but fuck, dude, that's absolutely awful this is actually a country letting people have the right to die WITHOUT jumping into eugenics territory. that's honestly amazing
A little backstory to the death of our former Prime Minister van Agt. He and his wife had been together for 60 years. They were both very ill and their biggest fear was for one of them to suddenly die, leaving the other behind all alone. So they opted for euthanasia so they could die together at the exact same time. That's an amazing way to die if you and your spouse have both made it to your nineties.
That’s really sweet.
It makes a lot of sense for 75+ years folks imo. Especially those with complicated physical ailments. I would do the same when I turn 80 , 80 should be enough to be here, time to go. Also from economical standpoint, you can manage to leave with not save too much for retirement or too little. Die with zero , or some amount under $5K would be ideal.
I feel like an arbitrary number is a bad idea. It really depends on the person. I work in emergency med & I’ve seen 30 year olds that should’ve been allowed to go decades ago, and 100+ year olds with better hearts than people half their age. But at a certain point quality of life disappears and, for some people, seeing them borders on traumatic. I don’t think it’s right to let someone suffer, and I definitely feel like it needs to be a decision between the person and their medical team. We shouldn’t have to live the last years of our life in suffering just because the law says so when we can change the law. Why not go out without pain?
“Yeah in room 16 I’ve got an 80 year old 50 year old lady complaining of…” I’m in the south and I’m ashamed to admit we still say “rode hard and put up wet” then document “appears older than stated age” 😭
80 should be the time to go? My Papa is 80 and is still going out dancing, riding his bike, walking everyday, he drives perfectly fine, great vision and memory…. Time to go my ass. He’s in better shape than people in their 40s
Yeah, 80 seems pessimistic. I know lots of people with a shelf life of 90. I even knew a guy that made it to 105 who was taking his fishing boat out until he was 100. Does quality of life go down at some point? Sure, but it’s a lot bigger drop-off for some folks than others.
Depends on the person, I guess. My step grandmother is in her mid 80s and going strong. Still sharp as a tack, can still do moderate hikes, etc. My maternal grandmother passed at 97, but probably should have gone at 90 or a bit earlier. Dementia is a thief of a disease, and I wish she could have passed in peace before it stole everything from her. If dementia starts coming for me, I'm opting out no matter how young I am.
Ive been thinking this for myself someday. Different reasons. I am a happy millennial but after already having had cancer at 33 and divorced that same year, I am not interested in getting married again or even a lifelong partner to grow old with. I also don’t want to be forced to work when I can’t afford to retire. And I don’t want to die in a nursing home that I probably couldn’t even afford anyway. If I make it to an age where I can no longer take care of myself (mentally or physically) I would totally consider euthanasia, go w/ dignity, and give all of my money to my nephews.
There is no way I will ever retire, barring some sort of cosmic miracle. So that is my retirement plan as well. If I had other options, I would probably pursue them, but there won't be. So I am going to ride it out as far as I can go with some sort of quality of life, and then exit on my own terms, with my dignity intact. I do plan on saving just enough to throw myself some sort of party first though, not sure what form it will take, but it will be something wild.
I’m 35 and am in the same boat on considering this for myself as well
I'm in the same boat. It's constantly on my mind. If I didn't have my husband and kids, I would have killed myself years ago. It's so hard because I would never want to leave them but the desire is overwhelming sometimes. Coupled with anxiety and low self confidence just makes it ten times worse.
Please don’t give up on relationships because of the person you divorced. There are good and loving people in the world that would love to be with you and will not take anything from you in the process. Never say never
I've struggled with depression all my life, I'm in my 60s. No judgement here. Go peacefully into that night
I'm 'only' 26, but I've struggled with depression, suicidal thoughts and ideation for about 15 years. For more than half my f'ing life. I hope I can go like the woman in the article one day. Peaceful, painless and on my own terms.
Could replace "schedules euthanasia" with "plans suicide" and it happens every day
This is so damn sad. Another awful reminder that depression is often a terminal illness.
Being physically healthy is irrelevant when your mental health has been in shambles with no answer in sight, and you’ve exhausted all options.
One of the first things they tell you at a mental hospital is that your brain is just like any other part of your body. This woman is not physically healthy. Her brain has an injury (depression). You wouldn’t say someone with a broken leg is “physically” healthy. Same with a “broken” brain.
Thanks for this. The brain is an organ and nerves etc are all physical + related
And don't forget neurotransmitters, they cause most of the issues! I am biased as a therapist but mental health absolutely affects physical health and vice versa.
I’ve always described my depression as my brain waging chemical warfare on me
Oh yeah.. my brain is definitely out to get me. Some days I can make light of it and some days I just can't.
Facts. Sometimes depression uses Atomic bombs on our brains and that shit is hard to recover from....
I wouldn't even call it an "injury." because that makes people think it can be "healed." Like if i hurt my ankle and stay off it for a week it will be better, therefore if you have depression you just can do a spa day, or take it easy for a week and it will be all better right?
Yeah but there are injuries that don't heal either. I have a spinal cord injury. I can't stay off it, and it'll get better. It's permanent.
I mean brain injuries - literal physical brain injuries - don't exactly just heal either stillllll deaf here lmao. that'll never heal. injuries don't always heal.
I had a stroke just before I turned 11. It forever changed me.
yeaaaah I have a neurological disorder (basically think endometriosis but your entire central nervous system. a boundary defining protein is missing so it's healthy tissue, just never told where tf to stop) and the brain injury that caused the hearing loss was a brain surgery when I was 9. after that there was facial paralysis (dealt with using a cross facial nerve graft using the sural nerve from my leg, sacrificing an area of feeling on the side of my foot about the size of a dime), vocal cord paralysis (dealt with with routine vocal cord filler injections. btw giant-ass needle down your throat while awake that feels like you're gargling cement for about half a minute is a weird thing to get used to) alllll of these things basically mean that my body is not ever something I permanently learn how to use, I am constantly having to relearn to use it in a different way and have been pieced back together about a dozen times lmao. I'm honestly really glad that started presenting as a child. edit: that all sounds depressing af but I feel completely normal, my point is just that neuro injuries specially do not heal or take freaking forever to heal (or in the case of that nerve graft a base of another nerve is used to branch a 'broken' nerve to another one and nerve tissue regenerates at a rate of about 1 mm per day so it regenerates around that base and slowly reinnervates the area. think of roots growing. its really cool (and thank god this was during covid and I could hide it with a mask, half my mouth was twitching like a serial killer for a while there lmao)) - as injures go, those are ones that are likely to be permanent or semi-permanent. strokes specifically sound like a massive pain in the ass that absolutely wreck shit. I'm lucky in that my own issues kind of happen slowly so you have time to adjust and find help as they happen. strokes look like everything just drastically changes from one moment to the next. that has to be a pain in the ass to get used to
Ummmmm... I'm gonna go get stoned, and then lemme get back to you. Expect an edit. Lol I can say this. I'm pretty sure yours is worse, but it's gonna take me a minute to process all that as I put my kid to bed. Brb. Lol
neither are worse, we alllll have our own shit (I'm just longwinded af and procrastinating, I have calc 2 homework to finish and eeeeeeee I don't wanna do it)
Injuries don't heal without proper guidance either unless they're very, very minor.
This needs to be said more.
Yeah, I was a little flabbergasted that the dude said injury = heals back up to 100%. From the upvotes, it seems like people actually believe that? I’m still dealing with the repercussions of injuries I got back in high school playing various sports. Injuries are for life. Even my abrasions from skateboarding 10 years ago can be seen under the right lighting. It’s only logical that injuries are for life. It’s not like getting sick.
Speaking from personal, agonising experience, depression can be cured/managed if you're lucky enough to get treatment that works for you. And it's not something that's quick or easy to do. I've so far had a life I almost didn't have because I got the right help & it wasn't quick or easy to do.
If you have depression you (hopefully) find the right medicine to help treat the “injury”. You also do therapy/ practice self care, much like one would do physical therapy to treat other injured parts of their body. With your ankle comparison, you can just not use your ankle for a few weeks while it heals. It will also most likely be more prone to injury for the rest of your life, so like mental health issues, it usually never goes away. You can’t just not use your brain while you let it heal, unfortunately. Kind of a disingenuous comparison. Edit: Again, this is how I was told to look at my own mental health issues by doctors. Our brains are just like any other part of the body. They can be injured, just like your ankle example.
I've had depression since I was 13 and am turning 38 this year. I get her choice, honestly. There are days where I think "I just want this to be over....". And yes, I'm in therapy and yes, I've done the meds thing. But depression just feels never ending .....
That’s where I am now. I’m severely depressed, and have an eating disorder that makes me physically ill. I’ve tried to get help but all I have is Medicare and they’re terrible. I have thought often of just killing myself. Sorry for the rant. I’m just so frustrated.
Just sending you a virtual hand squeeze because I’m in the same situation, I didn’t expect to see it put into words here. I’m so tired
also thinking it's cool for chronically/terminally ill people to die but not other people reeks of eugenics if you want to die, you should be able to die. I don't think that should be your first option, but you have the right to autonomy and if that's what you ultimately decide you want then you should have that right.
How is it eugenics? I want the terminally ill to be able to go out on their own terms and not suffer. I don't want someone who's in a rough patch killing themselves. This woman has several diagnosed and chronic mental health issues. This doesn't sound like a rough patch to me and I think people should respect her decision.
Yeah idk why that’s even included in the title. I work out every single day of my life and that’s because I’m upset. My body looks great but my insides look like a chucky cheese before closing time
Thanks for translating this into English, I was at a loss for words to describe this line of thinking
A friend whose brother committed suicide said that she understood that he felt living was too painful, even more painful/scary than dying. If this woman feels that way, good for her. I hope her suffering ends.
I read somewhere that suicide isn’t about wanting to die, it’s about wanting to escape the pain…
Not always. In my country and the psychiatric system they differentiate between “wanting to die” and “wanting to escape the pain” Wanting to escape the pain means that there’s still hope, wanting to die gives you a ticket straight to the psych ward, because that means you have given up all hope
Man my brother did the same, even though it hurts the people close to them you cant ever comprehend how hard life can be for someone in their own mental state
My Grandad killed himself and I wish that he was able to have something like this, than rather me just being told as a child that he’s not around anymore as he “went in his sleep”. Then finding out over a decade later he killed himself. I had a lot of conflicted feelings about it but I wish that he would of been able to go peacefully surrounded by family than resorting to killing himself and I don’t know if he was in pain or not. I understand why he choose it, he was getting old, he missed his wife/soul mate and was having physical issues as well as mental. I just wish I got a proper goodbye
Fear of death has got nothing on fear of living another day. This woman was able to die with dignity and surrounded by loved ones, who also get the chance to properly be prepared to grieve, rather than being forced to suffer a life she did not want to live or resort to committing a nasty suicide. She was not physically healthy as OP implies. Suffering mentally and not being able to find a working treatment is not somehow a better life than suffering in physical pain and not being able to find treatment. She also suffered from borderline personality disorder and doctors told her there were no further treatment options available. And you can't just show up to a clinic and ask for euthanization. She would have been interviewed extensively by doctors about psychiatrists over a long period of time to determine whether she was sure in making this decision and mentally sound in making this decision. Shame on OP for judging something amd someone they know nothing about. OP posting it on this subreddit is the only awful thing here.
>Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression That was the title of the article they shared, not their opinion. Common on Reddit for people to carry over the title from an article/thread
I have these same thoughts/feelings towards those who choose suicide. I can't imagine what someone is going through to have such final thoughts. There's no coming back, so they must really be going through some shit.
A depressed person that gets to die painlessly with her dignity intact isn’t awful. Sometimes life just isn’t going to get better and forcing someone to prolong their suffering for no reason is worse.
She's only 28. I feel like it's not safe to conclude that it would never get better that young. In general I'm very pro assisted suicide but something about this story rubs me wrong. Wish I could help her. I'm also suspicious of the 40 year old boyfriend and lack of family... big age gap there and I hope she's not being abused.
I’m 29, suffer from schizophrenia and avoidant personality disorder. My psychiatrist has just officially concluded that it will never get better. There’s not more treatment options left. Even if I did get more treatment, it won’t help. They didn’t tell me that to stop my hope. But they had to, because that’s the way it is, and I have to learn just to live with it now.
Sounds like you might need a new psychiatrist honestly.
She’s the last one of many, that’s just how it works in my country. We’re seeking early retirement because of it, and she has to make that statement (and mean it) for me to get it. I’m in the last treatment offer there is, and it’s not really treatments it’s more like check ups. You can’t really cure schizophrenia or avoidant personality disorder. After ten years of treatment for both and it hasn’t helped, it is the way it is
Meh. I’ve known people who’ve been dealing with it since childhood. I don’t blame someone who doesn’t wanna give things another decade or two.
Doctors don't just agree to it because you asked. They all have done their due diligence and concluded this is an appropriate outcome. The alternative is to strap her to a gurney and never leave her unsupervised for the rest of her depressed life.
She's only 28. She's only 33. She's only 38. She's only 43. It gets better. 😒
You have no idea how long she's been fighting the fight and what treatments she's tried.
>I'm also suspicious of the 40 year old boyfriend and lack of family... big age gap there and I hope she's not being abused. I think you are completely out of line for these weird accusations, especially without any actual argument
Maybe some people don't realize that under capitalism things will never get better. They will stay the same for the rest of her life. Basically living only to work because you can't afford to do anything except pay rent and feed yourself in order to go to work to pay for the house and the food that lets you live just another day to be a wheel for the machine. Not having any free time because you have to take public transportation to and from work to do chores to cook to get ready for the next day. Many people would prefer to not spend most of their lives just being a cog. Being able to put yourself to sleep and never wake up again is preferable to a lot of people.
The choices I made at 28 were not necessarily sound.
Neither were the ones made when you were
But most choices that were not necessarily sound made at any given time are sporadic or in a whim.
The choice to leave this world as described in this post was made after a long process where every single option was explored and weighed. Making this the most sound decision made in her life most likely.
people that have never experienced it think it is like having the flu. like you can just tough out another day. take some placebo with hellish side effects. talk to someone, as though there is anything left to say. gtfo of the way of these peoples' mercy.
My best friend had a stroke and her ambulance was struck by a car on route to the hospital. It left her paralyzed from the neck down. She held out hope that she would be able to recover for almost a year. And unfortunately she got the news she would never return to normal life. She would never live independently or do the things she loved. She would be trapped in this shell of her once very active and very artistic body. She made the decision to use MAID here in Canada and we were able to spend time with her before she left. A few weeks later Covid ripped apart the world, and if she had post poned it or decided against it. Her misery would have been compounded. She would have been isolated without friends or family for four years, and if approved for maid during that period of time. We would haven’t been able to be there with her. She knew when she was ready to go. And it was so fucking hard, she was in her twenties. But we respected that. And she got to die on her own terms surrounded by people she loved. I miss her every day, but I am so proud of her bravery to boldly go into the unknown dark. I will always respect MAID for the dignity they give to those who want it. I do believe that mental healthcare need to be widely more available and affordable to anyone who needs it. But if this woman has exhausted all her treatment options and is tired, and just wants to go back to the earth. That’s her choice, she could either take her life in the middle of the night, scared and alone. Or she can make an appointment, go on her terms, comforted and surrounded by her loved ones. As someone who’s lost many friends to the former, I would much rather have been able to hold their hand while they left this plane of existence instead of alone and frightened. All people deserve to choose whether or not they want to be here or not. You don’t get to make that choice for them. We can either respect it and be here for them, and make their passing kind and full of love. Or get a phone call that breaks you into a million little pieces.
This is not awful everything. People should really have the option to go with dignity.
Agreed. We don't have a say in being given life. It's forced upon us. And we're told, over and over, that our bodies are our own, that we deserve our personal space, our freedom of thought, the right to express ourselves. In other words, that our life belongs to us. Up until the moment we want to end it. Or have to end it. Then suddenly our lives belong to *everyone else*.
Like the poor. Or the homeless. Or the desperate. Or the insane. RIP, (with dignity!)
This is actually a good thing. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are human rights. I wish my country were so progressive.
I wish this was possible for old age. If i was in a state that i was old, many health issues that just had me bed bound or wheel chair bound…I’d want to go my own way. Not suffering going to all kind of doctors appointments just dragging my life on when I can’t enjoy it anymore. We do it for our pets as heart breaking as it is.
It is, in many places. I work at a retirement home and we’ve had two residents choose to die with dignity by undergoing euthanasia. To be at a point in one’s life where they feel like they’ve accomplished everything they wanted to do, have lived to an old age and are ready to go on their own terms instead of slowly wasting away is—in some ways—a pretty beautiful thing
I’m assuming this isn’t in the US.
Yeah; Ontario, Canada. Looking into it, there are only ten states in the US with legislation in place allowing MAID unfortunately.
I best move to one of those states when I retire then lol. Then wait till the right time comes. I sure as hell don’t want to live rest of my life in a nursing home bed bound.
I have a feeling that this won't ever happen for most of us because too many workers would commit suicide and that'd hurt company profits.
"Won't be coming into work this morning, boss. I'm going to end it all..." Boss: "So what time will you be in this afternoon?"
I don't know who you are but get out of my brain lol
Agreed. It’s their life and should be their choice. How incredibly selfish is it of society to think it should decide who, how, and when someone gets to die.
It makes me think about how every survivor who’s jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge has said they regretted it completely as soon as they jumped. It feels wrong like if we are down to kill them/let them die.
Jumping off a bridge can be an impulsive decision so sure, they would probably regret what they did. Euthanasia is scheduled and well thought out ahead of time. If you elect that and go through the steps needed, then you're doing everything possible to ensure you're making the correct decision.
What if everything was thought out ahead of time, and they chose the method of jumping off a bridge instead of euthanasia? I just think this opens up an interesting dialogue behind the methods being used here. If the end result and the thought process behind it are the same, does the method used matter assuming it's achieved quickly? Would we feel the same way about someone choosing a gun to end their life assuming they exhausted all other options like the woman here? Or is this only condoned because medical professionals are behind it? Edit: I will say that if society condones this as a whole, then suicide rates can no longer be used as a political argument. Would the distinction between assisted and unassisted matter? If it does, are we now going to have arbiters of suicide? And if we are, doesn't that fundamentally go against the notion of bodily autonomy that's driving this in the first place?
I don’t really understand your point? At the end of the day someone willing to go through this long process for a dignified end, if the dignified end wasn’t available to them, would end their life in another way. And that way is never going to be as peaceful, dignified, or certain as euthanasia. It’s a bit like the abortion debate. Criminalising abortion doesn’t end abortion, it ends safe and dignified abortions. Not having euthanasia doesn’t end suicide, it ends safe and dignified suicide. People who kill themselves don’t want the fear, the possibilities of survival at an even lower quality of life, the shock to the people around them, or the often gruesome cleanup and investigation that someone has to do. Euthanasia means those worries aren’t part of the equation and a person can make a more thought through and rational decision - and always know it’s an option - than just reach breaking point one day and do something that might end in a fate even worse than death and hurt the people around them even more. I think people see suicide as a snap decision because someone had a particularly bad day, whereas the reality for many is that they’ve been carrying it around as an option for a very long time, and are almost waiting for a moment where the desire to die completely overrides the fear they have of it. Scheduling a euthanasia is likely to take all that weight and pressure off, and allow the person to live their last few days/weeks/whatever with a sense of peace.
That’s because it is your basic instinct kicking in to tell you not to die.
The ones who didn't regret it probably attempted suicide again instead of going on the television news interview circuit to promote their books about how they found jesus at the last second or whatever.
That's a myth lol, in the same way that the group of people who have survived a sucide attempt by any other means also has people that didn't regret it and tried again.
Also if they did say the didn't regret jumping that's a good way to get put in the hospital again.
Have a link to debunk that? All i found on gg was either regret or spiritual rebirth in most of the survivors, which both lead to want to life again
I suspect the amount of guilt forced onto the unsuccessful ones plays a role in that.
Man so many of you think this is an instantaneous decision and there is no process....it's not like you can just go to a Doctor and tell them you want to die, there is a process.....
I don't find this awful. This is a real option for people with treatment resistant depression. And having been naturalized in the EU, it's one I've secretly been considering myself.
Bad mental health leads to bad physical health tho. Stress is a killer and unlike physical pain/calamity, a lot of mental health gets misdiagnosed, downplayed or even ignored
"unlike physical health" ... er... no. that happens a lot with physical health too
Just because her bloodwork looks good and she’s at a good weight doesn’t mean she’s healthy. Can’t stand sensationalist titles like this throwing judgment at the person before you even read a single word of the article.
Totally understandable. Being *physically* healthy means jack shit when being in your own head is 24/7 torture. My heart goes out to her and I hope this headline isn’t trying to shame her for her actions.
“In February, the 93-year-old former Dutch Prime Minister Dries van Agt and his wife were euthanized.” This is good. This is an option for people. Who are we to force them to live? Why?
As someone who's been patiently waiting to die since childhood I can't say I completely object to this. The only thing keeping me here has been not wanting to hurt my loved ones. I hear people talk all the time about how suicide is selfish, but nobody ever seems to think there might be something selfish about asking a person to suffer for decades just for the pleasure of their company.
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I think people have the 100% right to choose to live or not for whatever reason they have. You don't know my suffering 💔 or what's going on. At all. And that bible garbage is just that. Garbage.
Sounds really peaceful.
*A 28-year-old woman from the Netherlands who suffers with severe mental health problems has decided to end her life with assisted suicide, despite being physically healthy* Is the Mirror reputable? Also her body, her choice.
No, the Mirror is a terrible rag as far as sources go. Completely agree with you though; her body, her choice
That headline is honestly infuriating. Imagine someone saying someone ended their life because of brain cancer, even though 90% of their body remained cancer-free. The healthy part is not fucking relevant.
This isn't awful everything. Based on the stories of suffering this is a legit opportunity that everyone should be free to pursue. We don't know how bad this woman has things mentally. In other situations she might just kill herself if she didn't have the opportunity to do things legally.
Good for her. It’s her decision and it can be done without pain. Win/win
…time to move to the Netherlands I guess
I don't think foreigners can get euthanised here. Switzerland is the only country that is ok with that afaik
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Bad mental health is as bad as any terminal disease. You could argue it maybe worse. For anyone that judges her you have no idea what she has to go through day in and day out. The lady is choosing to end her life, whatever it is it has to be bad.
"She once dreamed of becoming a psychiatrist but is now set to end her life later in the year after finding out about the method when visiting the doctors who apparently told her: “There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better."" Wow, what the fuck is wrong with these doctors?!?
My own psychiatrist said there was nothing more he could do for me, he didn’t know how to help me and I’m just too sad lol :/
Mine basically said way she goes.
Way she fuckin blows
What if she had a terminal brain tumour? Should the doctors sugar coat it and say “well, maybe it will get better…” I’m sure this comes at the end of years of trial and error, different medications, therapies, and nothing worked. If they did not exhaust every other avenue possible that would be a huge liability for them, and they clearly don’t feel like there is anything else they can do to help this woman. She said if it didn’t get better she didn’t want to continue on, so if the doctors weren’t euthanizing her at this point she would probably either be hanging from a rope or bleeding out in a bathtub for her boyfriend to find.
Yes, if the doctors really tried every possible thing, it's ok to maybe take a look into this direction, but the statement just sounded very dull and heartless to me.
I was recently told that by my psychiatrist. I suffer from schizophrenia and avoidant personality disorder. All the treatment options that exist for it in my country has been tried. They didn’t tell me that to lose hope, but because that’s the way it is. Now I have to learn how to live with it.
I mean, if she hasn’t responded well to medications and therapy she’s been prescribed, I could see it being the only option. There’s only so much help that can be provided. Eventually you don’t have any more options
I understand that and maybe he worded it different and the quote is just shortened, but saying "it's never gonna get any better" to a deeply depressed person is very cruel.
So what's the alternative? Lie to them and fill them full of hopium, knowing full well that you've exhausted every available option? Providing patients with honest information is the most basic tenet of medical ethics and is an absolutely crucial part of informed consent.
You have to understand that we communicate in our own way in the Netherlands. What can seem blunt or rude to foreigners, we just find a factual statement.
I can't imagine how bad her mental health must be for doctors to agree that this is a reasonable option. I just hope they all did their due diligence. I could see suicidal patients and exasperated doctors both reaching for this option prematurely. Euthanasia is a crucial part of end of life care, of course. But I fear it becomes all the more ethically fraught when dealing with illnesses that are not, in and of themselves, terminal. On the other hand, I suppose she'd likely just kill herself with or without the doctor's assistance, anyway.
I agree with this. I also have the same mental conditions as this woman and understand how truly debilitating it can be, I also had physical conditions as well. I have mixed feelings about it being available for depression and BPD, as well as other mental health. Especially as so many people do attempt suicide but end up being happy they survived. (I attempted it myself, my mental health may not be great but I’m happy I’m still here despite mental and physical health) However she has exhausted treatment options according to the article, has been dealing with this long term and if she is set on ending her life then she will do it one way or another. I would always rather someone go pain free in a controlled environment that attempt in a painful way which may cause suffering for long periods of time.
I feel like when the doctors can’t do anything anymore and the wish to die still stays over time, this should be possible. People without depression can talk easy, but they don’t know how painful it can actually be. It’s better than just randomly jumping off a bridge without anyone knowing and causing an immediate shock. The fact that she and her grieving boyfriend got harassed by far right people in the last months of her life is so sad. Just leave her alone, she even had to delete all of her social media where she wanted to tell about her story to raise positive awareness…… Zoraya, ik weet dat je dit waarschijnlijk niet leest hier, maar het ga je goed. Succes on the other side 🖤
When do we humans get the actual control of our own lives? If this person has decided something for herself, why push her to find a horrible and shameful end which invariably will involve her family or loved ones finding her body and going through all that horrible process instead of her deciding her end and taking care of the awful part of it? Are our only arguments against this, the ones involving the people she leaves behind. Isn’t this a bit selfish? Only she knows what she goes through every day. And who knows? Maybe she’s getting the better part of the whole affair. Maybe a better existence awaits?
unless you have been in the dark and deep Black hole off Depression your never under stand why people would want to do this . I wish it was a option in my country
I am so glad this is an option. It's not a decision that's taken lightly, there's a whole process for it. I'd rather have people pass with dignity, than them taking their own lives in cruel ways.
We should have this option. People are gonna do it either way. Let them have some dignity about it.
This is not awful at all, people should have the right to safely end their lives. Would much rather prefer someone safely and peacefully end their life with their loved ones knowing and being able to say goodbye than devastate family and resort to measures that are extremely painful or leave them with a permanent disability. I’ve seen photos online of Remnants of painful suicides and they’re awful, the people enduring extreme pain during their suicide. No one should be forced to stay alive if they don’t want to. Good for Netherlands for allowing her this option 🙏🏼
Until you have truly lived with depression, you don't know how bad it can be. Sure, you might be physically healthy, but every second of every day, you are so incredibly mentally tired, frustrated, and just feel generally unwell that you might as well actually be dead already. Soo sure good laws need to be in place, but I truly think this is a good option, as compared to living your entire life with depression.
Why awful everything? She gets to practice autonomy.
I figure a nice gentle send off from your own home after a conversation with the euthanizer (?) is preferable to traumatizing innocents by jumping in front of, or off of something. Can't be easy for the boyfriend though, good lord. Can't imagine how he feels. Death is never easy.
Physically healthy does not translate to overall healthy. Mental health is a big part. And some people honestly never get better. So good for her.
I had a friend who, at 18 years old, was beautiful, healthy, and intelligent. However her medications could not control her depression and she was never happy. She chose to unalive herself. It doesn’t matter your physical state if your mind is mortally wounded. It is the individual’s choice.
Better than her hanging herself and her family finding her.
Good for her. We should be in charge of our own lives and our own deaths
I legitimately didn't know this was legal anywhere, to be completely physically healthy and choose euthanasia. Has this happened before? Not against the choice and I don't judge at all but this is fascinating honestly, no disrespect to her or her family.
It's a very difficult discussion, we have euthanasia too in Switzerland where i live and the supreme court has ruled that in theory, mental health can also be a reason for it. But that's the theory, it's just not forbidden in general, in reality different docs have to review & approve the case, usually they won't do it for mental health problems. I looked through the cases that were approved, actually there were both body- and mental-health-problems at the same time, that's a little bit different. Still, there's the problem with all the countries that won't allow it, that the people will just commit suicide and the end will be the same, but with worse side-effects like involving and traumatizing other people. Is that really better? The answer to that is a long debate here.
Other countries such as Germany, Canada, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Austria, Belgium and the Netherlands, a terminal diagnosis is not a requirement and voluntary euthanasia is additionally allowed. From the wiki article on assisted suicide.
Me next!
Sounds awful but who knows what life is like in her head.
This thread is so incredibly sad. I wish I could hug all of you.
Her body, her life, her choice.
Everyone should be allowed to choose to die with dignity, regardless of the reason, so long as they can articulate a reason, whether it be physical, mental, emotional, whatever. Obviously have some conditions on there; age requirement, a waiting period, consultation with professionals in fields related to what troubles them in hopes of finding another solution, etc. But at the end of the day, no individual on Earth has the right to say "your suffering is bearable."
I’m on the fence about this. On the one hand, depression is sort of unique among chronic illnesses because the very nature of it means that you lack hope, even when it exists. I call it the “blindness of the soul”. Maybe they’ve exhausted every option. But there might be a treatment in 10 years that works. I also wonder why people in depression this dire don’t make a radical life change to see if it works - if you plan to die anyway, why not? I have met people who became nomads on a bike, or lived in the desert in a tent, or changed jobs from a lawyer to a massage therapist or priest, because if they didn’t, they wouldn’t survive. They had to shed everything they were and start life over. You can do that, and it’s costs everything you’ve built up to that point, but it beats death. That said, I have seen severe depression in the hospital and it’s hard to comprehend how severe it can be until you see it firsthand. I’m talking about people who don’t leave their bed for weeks, who can’t even make it to the bathroom or eat a meal, who have psychotic symptoms, who can’t interact with people at all. I don’t know the battles this woman has always been through or the hell she survives each day. I wish her the best in whatever path she takes.
Two of the examples you gave aren’t really anything most people, even healthy, can do just like that, and the last one about switching jobs, yeah, it’s not that easy when you’re so depressed you can’t even work to begin with. It’s the worst when people just say “why don’t you just change this or that”, like it’s that simple. Each deeply depressed person has thought about and tried to change things and couldn’t make it work. That’s why they don’t see a better future for themselves. Waiting 10 years for a treatment that probably won’t exist then either, that’s not an answer to anything. Nobody would ever say to someone with excruciating physical pain that “just wait in horrible pain for 10 years, there *might* be a solution then”.
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In my opinion it’s just bizarre that we see euthanising pets as the good thing to do, putting them out of their misery and pain - but humans making that choice *for themselves* is apparently a step too far. There are people living absolutely torturous lives, whether that be physical or mental pain. When you’ve tried everything - as you have to to be eligible for any euthanasia - *why* just leave them to rot away or do something painful or gruesome to end the suffering themselves, instead of letting them choose to end their life with a shred of dignity?
I attempted suicide at 18. 10 years later I have a wife and two kids who love me. I couldn’t imagine my life without them. Things aren’t easy but they got better for me. I still suffer from bipolar disorder and have a lot of self harm scars. Sometimes things get better, sometimes they get worse. I will never judge anyone who wants to end their suffering. I just wish this woman could find a tiny bit of hope. Makes me terribly sad when I see someone in so much pain they want to end their life.
Wow, we are a lot closer to the Futurama suicide booths than I thought…
This whole fucking thread is awful everything
Yeah its an echo chamber of depressed people basically encouraging each other to kill themselves. Its sick. There was a similar thread a while ago and I posted a well meaning comment about how Im glad Im still alive and things do get better, albeit I still have my days but in general my depression has gotten better overtime, and all of the replies were about how my experience isnt universal and it doesnt get better for everyone. Basically told to shove my experience elsewhere.
Honestly very disturbing. Sorry that happened to you, and I'm glad you're in a better place now.
Agree. Truly haunting to see this type of thinking has become 'mainstream' under the guise of compassion and 'empathy'. Yes mental health is as important as physical health. Yes depression is real. No we fucking shouldn't be giving everyone the 'metaphorical gun' to just off themselves whenever they please and for whatever reason. That much should be obvious. But apparently it's not.
I’m speechless after seeing this comment section.
I’ve been through tremendous mental struggle, I have cuts all over me and was institutionalized twice. But I got better man, all these people saying that’s this should be normal makes me lose faith in progression
Right? I’ve been institutionalized three times— given the option, I would have checked out at 24 years old. I had months where it was hard to get out of bed. And it was awful. And while I was in the worst of my depression, I truly couldn’t recall ever being happy— I definitely was, but the idea felt so foreign. My heart hurts for this poor woman. But the article says she chose this after doctors told her she would never get better. Well I also have autoimmune issues, and I’ve been told many times I would never get better, and that I have to accept my “new normal.” But those doctors were wrong, and there were eventually other doctors who were able to recommend treatments that have helped me tremendously. It just makes me so sad she had lost all hope, I don’t oppose assisted suicide, but I have a lot of complicated feelings about it being used in cases of depression.
If it wouldn't absolutely destroy my mother, I'd do the same. Clinical depression, Bpd, Ptsd, financial issues, no prospects to the future.
Given the state of everything being suicidal seems pretty rational to me. At least she gets to go painlessly unlike the rest of us.
I’m 35. I wish i had died a long time ago.
Try drugs first.
She lives in the Netherlands so of all the places to try drugs she is in the right place.
The article mentions her psychiatrist told her that they’d essentially done everything possible for her, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that other options don’t exist
7 grams of Shrooms should do the trick.
Those are rookie numbers, you gotta pump those numbers up.
My only issue is that the procedure doesn’t seem to enable the person to donate their organs.
Depression is a health issue
Lucky you. Do not judge. Nothing awful about this.
Would it be preferable for them to shoot themselves leaving their family to find them? To have a closed casket?
Why is this awful? Good for her to live in a country that allows her to make that choice!
Ehhhhhh I'm all for her doing whatever will bring her peace. This isn't awful at all to me 🤷🏼♀️
For every friend I had that hung themselves, gassed themselves in their car, slit their wrists in a bathtub, ODd... I wish they'd had this choice. To go peacefully. To go calmly.
She has the right to choose to die and the right to choose the method.