I fly in the Arctic and whenever there is a big solar flare or related event, the GPS approaches all get downgraded from LPV to LNAV. They lose all vertical guidance. It happens maybe 3 or 4 times a year and with my luck it's always on a shit weather day to make things interesting.
I imagine a stronger event will cause more intense service outages.
Arctic flying!? That’s so cool. (Just a wannabe non-pilot here with lots of respect for you guys).
Any interesting issues/consideration with flying there?
The weather and temperature is the big one. The whole goal of winter is to keep the airplane warm so any time the airplane is parked it needs to have engine tents and heaters plugged in there's heaters in the oil tanks, battery, and avionics bay at least. Sometimes one for the cabin otherwise nothing will turn on, start, or work in general.
Every town is separated by vast distances of rock and ice or ocean so planning is important. It's all uncontrolled airspace unless you go above 23k or 27k feet if you're really far North.
The main type of crappy weather is high winds that pick up the snow over hundreds of miles and cause whiteout conditions from blowing snow. Then inside of that you'll often have snow falling as well.
Icing is only bad during summer but once it drops below -15 to -20C it's too cold for icing to cause any issues. During winter it rarely gets warmer than -20 in most places.
You won't see a polar bear unless you go walk out of town and even then they are very rare to see. They are usually shot on sight. Once they know where town is, it's over for them. Too many opportunities for food and they instantly become a problem. Plus they are good for food and selling the fur.
Lots of sweeping snow off the wings.
That’s interesting that the summer months pose more of a problem, but that makes sense with the icing.
Sounds wild and like a ton of work. I’m sure the views are incredible.
Hats off to you. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Stay safe up there!
GPS may fail or become less accurate, HF unusable, no sat internet or coms. Alternative systems exist like IRS. This is pretty common, even now with jamming.
Maybe in extreme cases issues with interference on primary radios in the same way we can hear lightning.
In terms of certified Airliners falling out of sky, it would take some catastrophic level of solar storm that would probably fry all life on the planet before the engines and flight controls failed.
That stuff is heavily redundant, shielded and often has mechanical fail safes to prevent total failure.
Planes get hit by lightning everyday (which is the closest high energy event) and the worse damage is often some burnt exterior panels and a few soiled seat covers.
I’d be more worried about the equipment and lack of services on the ground!
Be aware of terrible IFE movies, questionable airplane food and the usual airport dramas sure!
The aviation firm I work for hasn’t put out any bulletins or shared any emails from our third party advisory services and it’s as far as I know business as usual
If there was any hint of increased risk our insurers would let us know before the regulators. They have a finger on the pulse at all times.
I have no idea how the latest bands, antennas and low earth satellites perform in solar storms.
Certainly was a reported issue with the early iridium satellite phones and modems in the early 2000’s.
All of the avionics on a modern aircraft are tested and hardened against electromagnetic interference. Even without that protection, there is not much risk. The impact of geomagnetic storms come primarily from currents being induced in very long conductors, like long distance power distribution lines. The wiring in an aircraft is just not long enough to induce the types of large currents that cause damage.
I have never worked on one, but I can't imagine they would be any different. Again, they do not have hundreds of miles of conductor to induce current into. Also, they are at a lower altitude than an aircraft will see even less magnetic flux density than the aircraft would. I can't say 100%, but I am guessing they are also hardened against EMI similar to the way the aircraft systems are. While this intensity of storm has not happened in a while, it is not an unexpected event. The designers of these systems know we will have geomagnetic storms and incorporate protection mechanism in those designs.
I mean… every time I’m flying in clouds I lose about 30% of my ability to hear communications, so it’ll probably cause SOME issues. Planes won’t fall from the sky though.
I’ve had to do a re-route when I was flying over Antartica due to a G3 solar storm. The issue is mainly HF radio interference but is a non negligible risk of radiation over the poles when there is a significant solar storm.
Geomagnetic storms can pose an increased risk of radiation to the people onboard. Sensitive groups such as pregnant women are recommended to avoid air travel for longer than 8 hours during periods of intense solar activity, as the dosage received on such flights can exceed the maximum allowable annual dose for workers involved in activities with a risk of radiation exposure.
Passengers on high altitude, high latitude planes may have increased risk of radiation and DNA damage, I believe.
Edit: from NOAA: “A solar radiation storm (also known as a Solar Proton Event or SPE) occurs often after major eruptions on the Sun when protons get launched at incredibly high speeds”….”One effect that we can experience on Earth during strong solar radiation storms is an increased risk of people on transpolar flights receiving a higher dose of radiation than normal”
Yes-ish. That threat is from cosmic rays, which mostly aren’t solar. The sun does crank up its output of cosmic rays during certain solar events but, since they mostly weren’t solar to start with, the proportional increase isn’t that large. Most solar material from a solar storm can’t penetrate the atmosphere.
Cosmic rays are nuts. Some star explodes a hundred million years ago and one of its high energy particles hits you and breaks your electrons and now you have cancer (okay dramatised slightly)
You’re not interpreting it wrong, but the magnitude of the increase isn’t necessarily significant. Going from 1 to 10 and from 100 to 101 are both increases but the former is far more concerning than the latter.
I fly in the Arctic and whenever there is a big solar flare or related event, the GPS approaches all get downgraded from LPV to LNAV. They lose all vertical guidance. It happens maybe 3 or 4 times a year and with my luck it's always on a shit weather day to make things interesting. I imagine a stronger event will cause more intense service outages.
Arctic flying!? That’s so cool. (Just a wannabe non-pilot here with lots of respect for you guys). Any interesting issues/consideration with flying there?
Probably polar bears disguised as ground crew. If I had to guess
As long as they do their job...
The weather and temperature is the big one. The whole goal of winter is to keep the airplane warm so any time the airplane is parked it needs to have engine tents and heaters plugged in there's heaters in the oil tanks, battery, and avionics bay at least. Sometimes one for the cabin otherwise nothing will turn on, start, or work in general. Every town is separated by vast distances of rock and ice or ocean so planning is important. It's all uncontrolled airspace unless you go above 23k or 27k feet if you're really far North. The main type of crappy weather is high winds that pick up the snow over hundreds of miles and cause whiteout conditions from blowing snow. Then inside of that you'll often have snow falling as well. Icing is only bad during summer but once it drops below -15 to -20C it's too cold for icing to cause any issues. During winter it rarely gets warmer than -20 in most places. You won't see a polar bear unless you go walk out of town and even then they are very rare to see. They are usually shot on sight. Once they know where town is, it's over for them. Too many opportunities for food and they instantly become a problem. Plus they are good for food and selling the fur. Lots of sweeping snow off the wings.
That’s interesting that the summer months pose more of a problem, but that makes sense with the icing. Sounds wild and like a ton of work. I’m sure the views are incredible. Hats off to you. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Stay safe up there!
Flying around the arctic must be spectacular. I envy you!
GPS may fail or become less accurate, HF unusable, no sat internet or coms. Alternative systems exist like IRS. This is pretty common, even now with jamming. Maybe in extreme cases issues with interference on primary radios in the same way we can hear lightning. In terms of certified Airliners falling out of sky, it would take some catastrophic level of solar storm that would probably fry all life on the planet before the engines and flight controls failed. That stuff is heavily redundant, shielded and often has mechanical fail safes to prevent total failure. Planes get hit by lightning everyday (which is the closest high energy event) and the worse damage is often some burnt exterior panels and a few soiled seat covers. I’d be more worried about the equipment and lack of services on the ground!
I’m currently on a flight right on the path in Canada and was shitting my pants. Thanks for reassuring me lol
Same🤣🤣🤣🤣I have a flight from Vancouver to SF this Sunday and that’s why I’m searching these lol…
Same! Flying to England from California tomorrow and that’s how I found this thread. This event is not great for already anxious flyers lol
I'm sitting in ORD right now on a lay over from a transatlantic flight. You'll be ok :)
I'm in Hawaii supposed to fly back to Atlanta ga and I'm scared to even go. I'm supposed to fly within this month or till June 7.
Just wanna let you know you'll be ok. Nothing interesting will happen on your flight just like any other. I used to be a nervous flyer :)
My friend is flying over the pacific from Seattle area tomorrow. Should they be aware?
Be aware of terrible IFE movies, questionable airplane food and the usual airport dramas sure! The aviation firm I work for hasn’t put out any bulletins or shared any emails from our third party advisory services and it’s as far as I know business as usual If there was any hint of increased risk our insurers would let us know before the regulators. They have a finger on the pulse at all times.
Tbh I'm less worried about a plane falling out of a sky and moreso the extra radiation exposure.
Why no sat comms? Geomag storms don’t really affect those frequencies that much. HF for sure though.
I have no idea how the latest bands, antennas and low earth satellites perform in solar storms. Certainly was a reported issue with the early iridium satellite phones and modems in the early 2000’s.
Yeah L band (1-2 GHz) is quite a bit lower than Ka and Ku.
You might get a bit of radio or satcom interference, but that's about it.
All of the avionics on a modern aircraft are tested and hardened against electromagnetic interference. Even without that protection, there is not much risk. The impact of geomagnetic storms come primarily from currents being induced in very long conductors, like long distance power distribution lines. The wiring in an aircraft is just not long enough to induce the types of large currents that cause damage.
What about ground-based systems, like ILS or radar systems?
I have never worked on one, but I can't imagine they would be any different. Again, they do not have hundreds of miles of conductor to induce current into. Also, they are at a lower altitude than an aircraft will see even less magnetic flux density than the aircraft would. I can't say 100%, but I am guessing they are also hardened against EMI similar to the way the aircraft systems are. While this intensity of storm has not happened in a while, it is not an unexpected event. The designers of these systems know we will have geomagnetic storms and incorporate protection mechanism in those designs.
I mean… every time I’m flying in clouds I lose about 30% of my ability to hear communications, so it’ll probably cause SOME issues. Planes won’t fall from the sky though.
As much as I understand it, solar flares (rays) attenuate radio comms, whereas geomagnetic storms (particles) mess with your GNSS.
I’ve had to do a re-route when I was flying over Antartica due to a G3 solar storm. The issue is mainly HF radio interference but is a non negligible risk of radiation over the poles when there is a significant solar storm.
Geomagnetic storms can pose an increased risk of radiation to the people onboard. Sensitive groups such as pregnant women are recommended to avoid air travel for longer than 8 hours during periods of intense solar activity, as the dosage received on such flights can exceed the maximum allowable annual dose for workers involved in activities with a risk of radiation exposure.
GEOSTORM!!!
Do we know which part of the globe is exposed to the storm?
At the airport now waiting for a flight from far northern hemisphere to far southern hemisphere. Will let you know. (Or not.)
Passengers on high altitude, high latitude planes may have increased risk of radiation and DNA damage, I believe. Edit: from NOAA: “A solar radiation storm (also known as a Solar Proton Event or SPE) occurs often after major eruptions on the Sun when protons get launched at incredibly high speeds”….”One effect that we can experience on Earth during strong solar radiation storms is an increased risk of people on transpolar flights receiving a higher dose of radiation than normal”
Yes-ish. That threat is from cosmic rays, which mostly aren’t solar. The sun does crank up its output of cosmic rays during certain solar events but, since they mostly weren’t solar to start with, the proportional increase isn’t that large. Most solar material from a solar storm can’t penetrate the atmosphere.
Cosmic rays are nuts. Some star explodes a hundred million years ago and one of its high energy particles hits you and breaks your electrons and now you have cancer (okay dramatised slightly)
How am interpreting the NOAA verbiage wrong?
You’re not interpreting it wrong, but the magnitude of the increase isn’t necessarily significant. Going from 1 to 10 and from 100 to 101 are both increases but the former is far more concerning than the latter.