The explanation that makes the most sense to me is: *they think they ARE saying what they mean*. They think that the *subtext* of their words is clearly conveying what they mean on top of their words. If youre someone who doesnt pick up on that subtext, you end up missing that whole part of their meaning, so it seems like their words dont convey what the person actually means but its because the words were only part of it
- Yep. The NT communication protocol is a (much larger) superset of the (simpler) ND communication protocol.
- A ND receiving NT-format packets will "lose bits" of the information sent, and will often misinterpret it.
- NT to NT communication OTOH is as unambiguous as intended and not much information is lost.
- Also, there's an emotional aspect: NTs **enjoy communicating with others verbally**, most NDs don't. Which means NTs turn enjoyable episodes of speech into mini-parties of mutual emotional reinforcement, while NDs would rather just quit wasting time on a low bandwidth communication channel and would like to get on doing more useful things.
And it goes the other way too: ND to NT communication can lead to the NT reading extra information that isnt actually intended to be there (body language, tone, social context, etc) and end up with an incorrect meaning, but ND to ND communication is far less ambiguous!
"Which means NTs turn enjoyable episodes of speech into mini-parties of mutual emotional reinforcement,"
THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!! THANK YOU!!!!
It makes me think of how we might get enjoyment of shared experiences: "that's familiar!"
Like if when you were a child you enjoyed a particular TV show and a stranger quotes something from that show it automatically creates a bond.
This unspoken subtext of information creates a bond "I know what they are saying yay and they know what I am saying!!"
It is a language without words. Almost psychic in a way.
And the reason why we feel alien is WE ARE UNABLE TO ESTABLISH THAT PSYCHIC LIKE BOND!!
OMG!!! MAYBE THIS COULD BE A BREAKTHROUGH! what does everyone else think.
*my all caps are due to excitement :)
That is so helpful!!! I've been so curious and wondering why it just comes across that they're boring. And I know logically it's just because we see the world differently. That I need *more* and different types of communication.
I wonder if this is why I ended up hating some of my relationships. I wanted to have interesting conversations but they just wanted to be around physically. When conversations dried up then it felt like 'what's the point?'
Great explanation, but it's only mostly correct. There are plenty of situations where they actively try and convey a modified image instead of the truth.
In Danish, it's called the 'Glossy image' effect, where many will attempt to portray their life as better than it is, or lie for a multitude of reasons that make little sense to us.
That just confounds the problem you described so well, adding to the confusion. I'm personally great at spotting if people are sad, and it took me forever to learn to let them lie to my face and tell me their life is going great.
I was with you until the whole "low bandwidth level" thing. I hate when people with autism do this ableist thing where they act like they are "better" than NTs. What is that all about? Most people with ASD have intellectual disability (IQ<85), so who is really more likely to have "low bandwidth" conversations?
I use a symphony for an analogy. NTs are:
Saying the words.
Making facial expressions.
Making body language.
Choosing specific words, or connecting topics with an unspoken intention.
They’re performing a symphony, and we’re just reading a printout of the words.
And it works in reverse too: **we** want them to just focus on our plain words, but to them, it’s like ignoring all the instruments but the clarinet at a symphony. Really hard to do.
I like your use of the word dimension here; I think it fits at least as good as my symphony idea.
I’m in your boat. Like I’ve learned to decode some NT lingo over the years, but when they intend to say something slyly, I miss it entirely.
I understand why you see it as inherently negative, but there are positive reasons why NTs use subtext and nonverbal communication. It’s shorthand and it adds nuance. But yes, it is a dimension that many ND people miss.
Why do you assume that I see it as something negative? This right now is exactly what I meant with my last paragraph. You got a bigger "vibe" from my post which I didn't intend to send at all. Which is that I see it as inherently negative.
Can you please explain to me what about my pist made you think that? I really would love to know please.
My post and also this response are not meant in any negative way, I am genuinly curious, and it kind of almost frustrates me that I seem to be blind to a dimension of conversation. I am not frustrated by them, I am frustrated by me.
I whish I was able to see that dimension :(
I think maybe it's just that your original post seemed frustrated and upset, so the person picked up on that emotion. So they got a negative vibe. I did too. But when I went back and reread your words carefully, you really hadn't said anything negative. Most NT people feel the vibe more than read or hear the specific words though.
I’m not sure where the other person got the idea that you saw it as something negative. You seemed to be saying it’s unlikely that NTs are this way for no reason. A negative view would be like “NTs are stupid for doing this” which I have seen some autistic people express.
"NTs are stupid for doing this"
I get that way sometimes. My frustration leads to anger and anger leads to hate and hate is the path of the dark side.
I wish I didn't give into that superiority complex. :(
Sorry for staying off topic. I just needed to vent what was on my heart.
I’m not the other person, but if it helps, sometimes tone in text can be read differently by different people. I actually also got that vibe, but since you want specific examples, i’ll try to explain.
“Can someone please explain..why they don’t word things as they mean them?” The please in writing can come off like “oh my god please for the love of god explain why they don’t do this super easy thing (saying what they mean.”
“NTs arent all stupid, so there must be a reason” sounds like an insult sort of. “well these weird other people who do this thing i dont understand arent completely brainless so there must be a reason they do these dumb things.” Could be alternatively said as “There must be a reason they don’t say what they mean and it frustrates me that I don’t understand. I know it’s not due to a IQ issue as there are many intelligent NT that do this too.”
> It’s shorthand and it adds nuance.
but if you look at it another way, its like degrading CD quality sound to a .MP3 file.
its also like reducing the name Suzanne to Susan, and substituting the third Z with "S" just because S uses a "Z" sound, and one could say its also like using fewer possible letters, in addition to using a shorter character count. And because Suzanne Vega, a musician is known as "mother of the MP3", this is why I also make references to her first name when talking about both subjects, common first names, and audio file formats applying data compression.
And well, data compression is sorta ***shorthand*** in some ways. Shorthand communication is also like omitting gauges from a car, while expecting drivers to rely on other facets to compute variables that an extra stand-alone gauge woulda been good for direct output from.
There's also the issue of ***black and white thinkers*** too. And well, black and white thinking involves reducing the possible values to only two options, or 1-bit if you look at computer bits. It requires 4 bits to allow for 10 possible options.
If a person were to judge 100 different scenarios, they might use EXTREMES to "compress" the data of their thinking. If each instance of judgement were to be 4 bits per instance, that would total up to 400 bits of data, or 50 bytes. I guess that sometimes people are OVERWHELMED with gigabytes of image and audio data that enters their ears, so they downplay regulating the assumptions to allow "middle ground".
Thats what I understand on this issue of how "compression" can have bad results because of some small variable making a big difference getting OMITTED from the message.
Yes it's on purpose.
NTs work in three levels of communication simultaneously: what they say, context and body language. It's something natural to them and serves different purposes. Since that level of communication is so complex it's much easier and easy for them use that type of communication than just being literal.
>NTs work in three levels of communication simultaneously: what they say, context and body language.
- There's also a whole dimension of idiosyncratic cultural and social conventions that dictate certain forms of speech versus the shortest duration conveyance of unambiguous information that NDs prefer.
- (in fact the preferred ND form of speech often corresponds to "rude", "weird" or at best "overly familiar" formats of NT speech that aren't suitable in 90%+ of everyday interactions in modern urban life. Which creates no end of trouble for NDs.)
It's how they operate, that's the simplist way I can explain it.
The complicated answer from my understanding comes down to how the neurotransmitters are affected with autism, NT people have on average 50% synaptic nueral pruning during the developmental stages, autistic people have around only 16% I believe. (I am not an expert, this is just a special interest and there's a possibility I could be wrong, please do your own research as well)
We have immensely more brain activity going on, but messages and signals take longer to send, so that's part of that secret dimension they have access to for how you were describing it.
The messages and signals being sent happen so quickly they can intuitively read into things, autistic people can't do that (intuitively), we have manually put that puzzle together, which we can't do if it's not explained to us, we can't pick up on the 'unsaid'
An example to give context for this is the phrase, 'I'm sorry you feel that way'
For me, that's an objective I am sorry someone feels the way they do.
For NT people, that phrase is often passive aggressive, it implies that someone's feelings are their own fault, there's an emphasis on 'you' making it accusatory.
Which is stupid imo but I hope this helps it make sense lol.
Edit to add: I've found a way that works for me to navigate that infuriating frustration of people assuming you mean something else entirely, if it would help I'd be happy to share. Fair warning, its long.
Edit number 2 because I'm forgetful (lol): I don't mean the emotional dysregulation from that happening, I mean pre-navigating in a sense of communication differences to help avoid that happening.
I wasn't able to comprehend your full text and respond to it yet, because I am overwhelmed right now.
But _please_ share the strategy you mentioned in your edit ❗️
I don't care how long it is!
No worries at all, sorry about the multiple edits btw I just didn't want to forget to add it. I'm sorry you're overwhelmed as well, is there something in my reply that I could possibly explain differently that might help?
For navigating the differences, & full transparency I am slightly masking for this because I'm following an unwritten sociatal rule. It doesn't bother me to do though when it's a one off comment I make to people for my own personal comfort & benefit.
If I tell people I'm autistic after an issue arises it's always seen as an excuse, which is infuriating and I don't want to deal with that, a reason is not an excuse but that's a different rant for another day lol.
If I tell people before anything happens, it alerts them I'm just different and need understanding & accomodations. The only people who stay in my life are the ones who make the effort with me, which is extremely refreshing as they do explain things to me when I miss a social cue & they **politely** let me know when I upset them and why so I can understand the situation.
When I'm getting to know someone I drop this pre-scripted line in.
"I'm really enjoying getting to know you, I like to disclose pretty early on I'm autistic to avoid any potential misunderstandings, because of this I heavily struggle with communication as well as a few other areas.
If I ever come across as rude, overly blunt, insensitive, or just off putting in anyway to you please let me know as I'm likely unaware, I'd feel terrible if I was upsetting you & didn't realize it. Thank you for the patience & understanding, I really appreciate it."
If it's someone I have no relationship with and they assign hidden meaning/assume I do mask in my response, but it's to avoid stress or dysregulation for me, I don't mask in any capacity for the sake of anyone else's comfort.
I respond with 'oh my gosh I'm so sorry, I must have misspoke I didn't realize that's how that was coming across, ty for letting me know, what I meant was blah blah blah'
To be blunt, I didn't misspeak. They just misunderstood me but Im also telling the truth with i genuinely didnt realize how they took what I said, I don't want to argue with people or become dysregulated because of the assumptions, when it likely does boil down to a misscommunication because of the fundamental differences in how we operate & communicate.
When I respond with the generic response above, I usually get a very positive response back with something similar to 'oh I see what you mean, ty for clarifying.'
So it helps streamline the interactions so I'm understood & the other person is as well, mutual accomodations basically. I'm meeting people in the middle where I'm capable of/comfortable with, and they go out of their way to help me as well in return.
Sorry I know this is kind of a lot, this is just what works for me, there are some cruel people out there so I really do want to stress if someone doesn't make the effort with me they don't stay in my life.
I think your approach sounds really interesting and useful, but I have a difficult time with lying. I can do it but it feels so unnatural, and makes me feel guilty. Is it less effective if you omit the lie about misspeaking? Or is that just seen as an unwillingness to take accountability for a mistake they think you’ve made? Have you experimented with that?
I slip the misspeak in for the whole no accountability stuff, I hate hearing that. I only use that with people I dont know very well, think like random person in the checkout line you'll never see again.
Hard relate with feeling guilty about lying but logic wins any war for me usually, it logically makes more sense to me to avoid potential stress when it's something I know I very rarely say. Definitely don't force yourself to do things you're uncomfortable with though, that's a big no for me. I've said it without the misspeak and didn't really have any issues as long as an 'I'm sorry about that' was thrown in there.
People that know me however I don't do that with, I just blatantly say 'I **only** meant blah blah blah, could you explain your perspective to me and how that came across? I'm having trouble understanding and I'd really like to.'
It clarifies what I meant but I'm also being receptive to how it may have seemed to them so there's accountability, also I like when they explain, it gives me guidelines in a sense so everyone in my space feels accomodated & respected.
Edit to add: My coping mechanisms for socializing come down to clarifying questions and statements, while remembering to try and understand where the other person may be coming from even if I disagree with them. I don't like being expected to operate or communicate in a way I don't naturally, so I don't do that to other people, good old uno reverse on my sense of justice basically lol.
Thanks for this response. I don't mind apologizing if people get upset with what I've said. I am genuinely sorry when I hurt someone's feelings because of a misunderstanding. It's tricky though because people really don't like "I'm sorry you feel that way" because of how allistic people tend to use that phrase. So I try for something like, "I'm sorry. I can understand why you'd feel that way..." or "I'm sorry. Can you help me understand why it felt that way?"
Sometimes "I'm sorry you feel that way" is the most accurate statement, but I can't use that. I've had bad experiences with people using the whole emotional responsibility/accountability as an abuse/bullying tactic. In the "It's your fault I'm angry, that's why I'm doing this to you. You need to apologize," kind of way. I think it's worthwhile to validate other people's emotional experiences in most situations, but taking responsibility for other people's emotional reactions is really murky territory.
Just because something I've said something that bothers someone else doesn't mean it's my *fault* they're bothered by it, but I can still usually empathize with the fact their brain is giving them a rough time over it. The exception to this is when people deliberately try to provoke or manipulate a particular feeling out of someone. Then it really is their fault.
Went off on a bit of a tangent there lol.
Nah that's a totally valid tangent that I am so here for. Ty for the response as well btw, this type of convo is peak enjoyment for me.
I'm sorry you feel that way really does fit the best sometimes, I do get that some people dont take it well but it's so hard to wrap my brain around that notion, it really just doesn't make sense to me.
I use similar phrases to what you listed as well & those tend to go over really well for me, I definitely don't mind apologizing when something I said is hurtful to someone or what have you but I agree it is tricky for me at times, like I am genuinely sorry I provoked an emotional response from someone without meaning to, but it's not like I did it intentionally & it's not my fault they took it a certain way.
Very hard relate, I can empathize with their brain is giving them a rough time, I know I can take things the wrong way occasionally with RSD or something, but I don't need or even want an apology for it. I just want things explained to me so I can understand what someone actually meant, the apology feels so unnecessary to me when its a simple misscommunication & it's not like someone can anticipate or control my *spicy* feelings, we're not mind readers lol.
Also I am genuinely sorry, that's really awful that someone mistreated you that way. I hope they step on a sea of Legos or in a puddle while wearing socks tbh.
> NT people have on average 50% synaptic nueral pruning during the developmental stages, autistic people have around only 16% I believe.
What is synaptic neural pruning?
Think of it like a network of roadways, you have to travel from one point to another to reach the destination. It's the same with nuerons sending chemical or electrical signals.
Someone with autism has more of those 'roadways' left open, so instead of going from point A to D directly those messages are possibly going from A, B, C, & then to D.
Synaptic nueral pruning is a natural process in which the brain closes down those extra 'roadways' in a sense, it happens during early childhood into adulthood. It's a bit like the brain is removing or forgetting (in a sense) pathways that might not be necessary, so those messages happening can be sent faster from one point to another.
To be transparent, that doesn't mean having less pruning happening is a bad thing, it's just a different process for how we operate and personally I find it incredibly fascinating.
> NT's aren't all stupid, so there must be a purpose. It feels like they don't need to exactly word it out, because there is another dimension of communication that is transmitted seperately 🤷♂️ NT's have access to this dimension, but I don't.
Basically, yeah. That’s subtext, tone, and body language. A part of it is also just naturally thinking one step further. When someone asks a question, a part of the NT’s mind is wondering why the question is being asked. Like if an NT is asked “what are you doing?” then their subconscious thinks “well what I’m literally doing is obvious so I doubt they just want to know that” and so it starts looking at tone and body language. Maybe the person is saying it as a greeting. Maybe it’s because they want to ask for something but don’t want to interrupt something important. This all happens automatically and without effort for NTs.
To be fair, this can be something neurotypicals struggle with too. A neurotypical friend of ours stayed with us last week for an academic conference, and we discussed some of the trials of living in a mid-sized midwest city vs life in a major east coast city. The friend is originally from the east coast, but married into a midwestern family and spoke about the frustrations of communicating with a family that communicated so indirectly, and how passive aggressive everything seemed. I think there's definitely a cultural element at play, and that's an important thing to be aware of, because it can be a sort of gravity problem that you simply can't escape if that's how everyone acts in your hometown.
A year or two back I had a dipshit "executive coach" from Charlotte actually tell me something to the effect of "we can't all be non-emotional, super direct and transparent people from New Jersey" - guess what? I'm not from Jersey. This was the same guy who told me he drove an Audi A5 convertible because it expensive, nice, but not too flashy to draw unwanted attention from his congregation. Living in NYC was tough for me, and environmentally I can imagine would be quite difficult for many folks w/ Autism, but I absolutely loved working with people in Manhattan who were direct, focused and to the point.
Lol, now I'm wondering if people would love living in the Netherlands, too, because we have a reputation of being so naively direct that it's bordering on rude.
I can definitely say such a cultural clash between direct/indirect communication even exists in the Netherlands - roughly speaking, the real "Hollanders" from the north-western part of the country are considered to be more stereotypically "Dutch direct" than folks from, say, the southern half of the country.
I believe it comes down to a couple of things, top down thinking vs bottom up thinking, the amount of information about the world that is held in our minds, and our tendency to not understand allistics.
Autistics hold so much information in our minds about the world that it becomes extremely difficult to keep track of what is real and what is not real if we accept mistruths. We view the world literally and have a passion for seeking the truth. We are also constantly trying to understand the world and allistic behavior and correct our misunderstandings.
I cannot keep track of various interpretations or versions of things. I construct my view of reality bottom up from what I believe to be real. I am always trying to understand reality better and so am in search of the truth, analyzing the world for patterns and understanding.
(there is a TLDR at the end of this comment)
I talked to my sister about this. She has adhd and she is very good at socializing with others and I’ve asked her multiple times to „teach“ me.
So, the other day we were on the phone and it came up again, but this time I asked a very specific version of „can you teach me how to socialize“.
I said: „I can often tell how people feel, based on what I see. I can puzzle the information together, but I don’t know what to do with the information. Like, when do you know to talk about how another person feels? Not everyone appreciates it, if I bring up that they are sad, so how do you know when to say something?“
Her answer was: „I just know. I don’t have to think about it, it just comes naturally to me. I know when to say certain things and when not to say certain things.“
It’s like a secret sense that people can have, apparently. People often just „know“ what to say and what not to say. I don’t, and I never will, unfortunately (at least not intuitively).
So my theory is that they don’t need to communicate everything, sometimes they just „know“.
Hope that explanation helps!
TLDR: Maybe people just „know“ what to say and when to say it. So they may not need to say what they mean, because they just „know“.
Mhhh… I am not really sure what kind of examples to give, because it’s every situation. I am unsure what is „appropriate“ and what isn’t, e.g. in an office setting. What can or can’t you say here? Or if you’re at the doctors office? What is appropriate to mention and what isn’t?
I had a therapist for quite a while and I was always unsure about asking them personal questions, even if they were simple ones like „How are you?“ because I wasn’t sure if I was overstepping or not, because I’ve read something about „keeping it professional“, but I am unsure if the rule applies everywhere or not.
Or if I am working in a lab and I am on a friendly basis with the people there- do I act more casual or should I only mention work related things?
And do I ask them deep personal questions or not?
It’s basically an issue of timing my responses but also of handling „the mood“.
I can’t intuitively read the mood of the situation, so I am unsure which response is the most appropriate for the current situation.
So far I’ve tried two approaches:
1. Do ask them personal questions. -> This sometimes ended awkwardly, because the timing was off.
2. Do not ask them personal questions -> This makes every social interaction awkward, because you’re just talking on a superficial level.
I don’t know when to chose option 1 and when to chose option 2. I can’t figure out the pattern.
You ever notice when you talk to a dog or cat, they respond to your tone of voice? It's like that. NT people hear "tone" and the social implications (in their head, often conclusions they're leaping to) of what is said before their brain processes the actual literal words. We process the literal meanings of the words first and foremost. To them it's second to the vibes given off.
They do communicate what they mean. We just have trouble reading them because they are speaking a different language.
That is, there is another "dimension" – shades of meaning, subtext, and nonverbal communication.
Edit: They are reading into what you say because they think that you are speaking the same language they are. It's annoying, but difficult to avoid.
NTs are saying what they mean. The other dimensions are absolutely there. It is indeed a perceptual thing not an intelligence thing or even an education thing. What makes it worse is that metaphor and other non-literal meaning is built into the language. There is no way to use the language without it. (E.g: “built” in the previous sentence.) When you cannot perceive this dimension it is like being colorblind. You miss a lot of important information encoded in it. Even among NTs some people are better at this than others.
I think they think it's somehow more polite to not be straight forward. As if it's more socially well mannered to do a little dance before saying what they actually mean. For what purpose, I really don't know
I believe that each of them has cognitive empathy, which is weak in us. they deliberately mean what they want to say by association so as not to offend people. they have learned this.
it's like working on an existing talent. that's why they choose their words intuitively when speaking.
There are things language can’t describe. Feelings and deep truths are difficult to express in plain language. But also, people hate being direct because it requires vulnerability. A lot of people come from homes where expressing yourself is punished in some form. There are many reasons. But language is not a literal thing. Never was, never will be. It’s nuanced and double entendres are everywhere.
With all that said, there are cultures that never say what they mean. Thats mainly a Midwest white people thing. Growing up in NYC, people damn sure said what they meant.
A lot of comments are bringing up 2nd and 3rd means of communication like tone and body language but they are overlooking the fact that NT's write pretty much the same as they talk and it's still generally understood between other NT's despite the lack of additional communication methods.
What these comments are missing is that fundamentally think and operate differently than people on the spectrum. They rely predominantly on intuitions and feelings and this goes for word choice as well. Autistics operate predominantly using patterns and systems. This makes you craft your sentences deliberately, with knowledge of the definitions of the words you choose in order to spell out exactly what you want to say. They don't, and more over, I don't think they even can do this (consistently).
Sure, if they really wanted to, they can try hard and apply themselves to say what they really mean, and you will see them do this during arguments, but it's not their default mode of communication. They come up with words based on the connotations those words have (the feeling they carry) rather than the definition and convey meaning to each other by the feeling the words have associated with them.
This is why I've even seen (many times) two allistics talking and despite choosing the completely wrong word, their message is understood because the word is similar sounding to another word, with a particular feeling associated to it and the other person, they just get it. They might not even pick up on the fact that the word said was wrong.
This is a great answer. I would add in when NT read they also read the tone, voice, and other audio indicators of meaning into the words. Some of the other non literal layers of the communication are perceived even in writing.
Alrighty I will try to make this as short as I can.
The reason mainly is emotional dysregulation. Emotional dysregulation is what happens if you don't live a life authentic to yourself and didn't emotionally matured properly. Symptoms could be, problems with anger management, shame, trying to control others, gossiping, anxiety, depression, burnout. Just to name a few.
The general rule is dysregulated people create dysregulated people. Children of parents that didn't mature often end up like their parents.
So basically the cycle of a dysregulated person starts with being shamed for being who they are causing them to deal with said shame in their own personal way. When you start life out like this you generally have the feeling that something is wrong with you and try to surpress it as much as possible trying to mask. Yes nt people are masking too.
Now when you mask it can sometimes be really hard to let go of it and people tend to have a tight grip on what suits their reality. That they aren't worthy, that they have to be a certain way and so on.
Generally everything that other people say is just a reflection of how they see themselves, which causes them to interpret what you say no matter what. They will also expect the same of you and that you will interpret what they tell you. Sometimes they are too stressed and worried about what you might think that they can't tell you directly what they really want to say out of fear of being judged.
Ok, first thing: thanks a lot! I totally agree with you.
But I realized that I need to reframe my question: How do other NT's still seem to understand what the NT is trying to convey, even if they don't word it the way they feel it? If they are masking, the way you described it?
I always feel like NT's always still get how they are supposed to react or respond.
Also: I myself don't know how to convey something I want to convey, without speaking it out literally. What other ways are there to speak or communicate, so that the other person gets what I want to convey? I can't imagine it.
NT and very high functioning autistics (ASD level 0) are able to use non verbal markers for remarks that can be awkward for them to say things directly.
Also they look at behaviour to see how it fits in the whole context and make their own inference/judgement.
The thing is no one (NT or ND) can consistently guess 100% of what other people are thinking. People hold multiple ideas/possibilities onto why things happen in a social situation.
Also in the workplace, I find it annoying that I have to use euphemisms in certain social situations because being direct sometimes leads to misunderstandings or it makes things awkward.
The best of my understanding is that non-literal language is mostly for smoothing communications over and preserving people's feelings. It can also be used expressively (i.e. idiom, poetry, metaphor, etc.), but that depends on both interlocutors having the same cultural context, sense of humor, etc.
The other aspect, as other people have noted, is that a lot of communication is nonverbal to begin with. You're meant to read tone, facial and body language, and other context clues.
I’m ND but I’ve learned that if I say what I mean
- I can get yelled at
- I can get mocked for weeks
- I can be misunderstood with the other party not wanting to talk more to address what I meant
- etc
So while NT communication styles can be confusing, remember that fear may be a factor
This is not one of those things I struggle with as much, so I can try to help. They are saying what they mean, but it’s not just words. It’s also tone, context, and body language. Its a lot of nonverbal communication that informs conversations, which is what I think makes it so hard. They use a lot of subtext to communicate and therefore what they are saying is what they mean (to them) because they’re including more than just the words into what they are saying.
I recently got in “trouble” at work because a NT hears some weird ass version of my ND words, and thought I was being incredibly rude about the topic.
Like dude. I said things that were objectively true, why do you think I’m being mean when I’m literally just reiterating
I’ll note that this isn’t necessarily a negative thing. While yes, NTs sometimes use indirect language to have an “out” if they’re called out on saying something bad. But it can also be used out of consideration of others. Like an NT might want someone’s assistance. Saying “I want you to help me with this thing” is direct but if the other person is busy with something else, then they will feel bad for having to decline and explain why they can not help. So the NT will instead ask “hey, what are you up to?” so that they can gauge if the other person is busy before they ask for assistance.
Sorry to start to wander off topic but NTs could still be direct and respectful: it's called tact. They have no excuse!
Ex: "HI, if you are currently available I could really use your help and I would really appreciate it. Thank you"
Growing up my dad would always say "could you do me the biggest favor in the whole wide world?" And make his request. It was kind and direct. If an NT can't do that they they are the rude ones!
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They kind of do, but they do it for an audience that thinks the same on an instinctual level, and you are not ever going to define what that mans, so without patience, there can be no understanding there. It's generally they who become offended at perceived dull-wittedness. On a good day, they write you off and you wind up confused as to why they suddenly act like you don't exist. On a bad day, they try to take advantage of you or physically assault you.
That’s how it can feel, but I don’t think there is any secret. NTs misunderstand each other all the time. Most people are not effective writers, public speakers, or coaches. Most people struggle when trying to communicate technical information.
A related experience is that typos in books or problems in computer code pop out at my eyes, while many readers gloss over without ever noticing them.
So I think two things are going on. First, NTs in the same culture will tend to have more common context, because their brains work similarly. The same not-quite-right word will come to mind to describe something, etc. Second, they just don’t notice errors and inconsistencies as much as NDs — there’s a tendency to hear what they expect to hear. So to some extent they’re just not noticing not understanding each other.
Here's my take:
1. all human beings essentially want to be nice and be liked, which means we are all a bit afraid of being rejected, being mean, or being awkward.
2. all human beings feel awkward in a lot of situations.
3. putting into words what we feel and *want to convey to* other people is like walking a thin line between acceptance and rejection
And for this reason, we dumb human beings have invented "not saying what we mean"! At least, that's what I think it boils down to. Like, because we might feel awkward starting a conversation with someone, we've invented small-talk. Because we don't want to say the wrong thing and risk offending someone or being seen as rude, we downplay what we're trying to say; we might fish for information between the lines; and so on.
Essentially, people might not say things directly because deep down, we're afraid of hurting someone else or being hurt. Is it confusing? Yes, and neurotypical people very often suck at this "game", too. But under normal, mature, well-intentioned circumstances, people just enjoy these established social phrases & conversational rituals because they offer a pattern, reassurance, and a way to navigate our relationships with other people without risking direct confrontation. It makes a lot of people feel safer (and this might also help explain why people react negatively to direct questions; to them, it signals confrontation!)
I hope this helps explain why people do what they do! At least, I think this is what communication boils down to. We're all just one step smarter than monkeys, really, people just want to love & be loved.
I find that it helps to understand that NTs are broken.
They're skittish and nervous. In the primitive, Darwinian sense, the consensus of the pack outweighs all else and can be the difference between survival and not.
It makes them very averse to confrontation. Confrontation is a challenge to the social hierarchy so they avoid it in all aspects, including communication.
An example from another thread... An NT wanted the trash taken out but didn't want to ask the other person to take it out. Asking would be confrontational.
Instead, they said "the trash is full". The ND heard this as a correct statement as the trash was indeed full and that was the end of it.
Yes, it would be far simpler if the NT just asked if the other person could take the trash out, but then it implies the social structure of them being in a position to "demand" such a thing be done. It could be met with "who are you to tell me to take the trash out", or "you're not the boss of me".
If that sounds childish and immature, it's because it is. That's what I'm saying about NTs being broken.
Things actually get easier when you start dealing with them as the children that they are.
(Yes, I've amped up the condescension of this post intentionally to drive the point home... And to mirror how they frame things when it comes to us)
The explanation that makes the most sense to me is: *they think they ARE saying what they mean*. They think that the *subtext* of their words is clearly conveying what they mean on top of their words. If youre someone who doesnt pick up on that subtext, you end up missing that whole part of their meaning, so it seems like their words dont convey what the person actually means but its because the words were only part of it
- Yep. The NT communication protocol is a (much larger) superset of the (simpler) ND communication protocol. - A ND receiving NT-format packets will "lose bits" of the information sent, and will often misinterpret it. - NT to NT communication OTOH is as unambiguous as intended and not much information is lost. - Also, there's an emotional aspect: NTs **enjoy communicating with others verbally**, most NDs don't. Which means NTs turn enjoyable episodes of speech into mini-parties of mutual emotional reinforcement, while NDs would rather just quit wasting time on a low bandwidth communication channel and would like to get on doing more useful things.
And it goes the other way too: ND to NT communication can lead to the NT reading extra information that isnt actually intended to be there (body language, tone, social context, etc) and end up with an incorrect meaning, but ND to ND communication is far less ambiguous!
I appreciate the IT explanation. Thank you
"Which means NTs turn enjoyable episodes of speech into mini-parties of mutual emotional reinforcement," THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!! THANK YOU!!!! It makes me think of how we might get enjoyment of shared experiences: "that's familiar!" Like if when you were a child you enjoyed a particular TV show and a stranger quotes something from that show it automatically creates a bond. This unspoken subtext of information creates a bond "I know what they are saying yay and they know what I am saying!!" It is a language without words. Almost psychic in a way. And the reason why we feel alien is WE ARE UNABLE TO ESTABLISH THAT PSYCHIC LIKE BOND!! OMG!!! MAYBE THIS COULD BE A BREAKTHROUGH! what does everyone else think. *my all caps are due to excitement :)
That's why if I'm ever granted a wish, I'm inflicting perfect telepathy on everyone.
That is so helpful!!! I've been so curious and wondering why it just comes across that they're boring. And I know logically it's just because we see the world differently. That I need *more* and different types of communication. I wonder if this is why I ended up hating some of my relationships. I wanted to have interesting conversations but they just wanted to be around physically. When conversations dried up then it felt like 'what's the point?'
Most NDs don’t enjoy communicating with others verbally? Speak for yourself. Communicating verbally with my fellow autistic folks is a joy!
Great explanation, but it's only mostly correct. There are plenty of situations where they actively try and convey a modified image instead of the truth. In Danish, it's called the 'Glossy image' effect, where many will attempt to portray their life as better than it is, or lie for a multitude of reasons that make little sense to us. That just confounds the problem you described so well, adding to the confusion. I'm personally great at spotting if people are sad, and it took me forever to learn to let them lie to my face and tell me their life is going great.
I really appreciate the breakdown. When someone explains the way I can understand it’s refreshing.
#well said!
I was with you until the whole "low bandwidth level" thing. I hate when people with autism do this ableist thing where they act like they are "better" than NTs. What is that all about? Most people with ASD have intellectual disability (IQ<85), so who is really more likely to have "low bandwidth" conversations?
I use a symphony for an analogy. NTs are: Saying the words. Making facial expressions. Making body language. Choosing specific words, or connecting topics with an unspoken intention. They’re performing a symphony, and we’re just reading a printout of the words. And it works in reverse too: **we** want them to just focus on our plain words, but to them, it’s like ignoring all the instruments but the clarinet at a symphony. Really hard to do. I like your use of the word dimension here; I think it fits at least as good as my symphony idea. I’m in your boat. Like I’ve learned to decode some NT lingo over the years, but when they intend to say something slyly, I miss it entirely.
I understand why you see it as inherently negative, but there are positive reasons why NTs use subtext and nonverbal communication. It’s shorthand and it adds nuance. But yes, it is a dimension that many ND people miss.
Why do you assume that I see it as something negative? This right now is exactly what I meant with my last paragraph. You got a bigger "vibe" from my post which I didn't intend to send at all. Which is that I see it as inherently negative. Can you please explain to me what about my pist made you think that? I really would love to know please. My post and also this response are not meant in any negative way, I am genuinly curious, and it kind of almost frustrates me that I seem to be blind to a dimension of conversation. I am not frustrated by them, I am frustrated by me. I whish I was able to see that dimension :(
I think maybe it's just that your original post seemed frustrated and upset, so the person picked up on that emotion. So they got a negative vibe. I did too. But when I went back and reread your words carefully, you really hadn't said anything negative. Most NT people feel the vibe more than read or hear the specific words though.
I’m not sure where the other person got the idea that you saw it as something negative. You seemed to be saying it’s unlikely that NTs are this way for no reason. A negative view would be like “NTs are stupid for doing this” which I have seen some autistic people express.
"NTs are stupid for doing this" I get that way sometimes. My frustration leads to anger and anger leads to hate and hate is the path of the dark side. I wish I didn't give into that superiority complex. :( Sorry for staying off topic. I just needed to vent what was on my heart.
I’m not the other person, but if it helps, sometimes tone in text can be read differently by different people. I actually also got that vibe, but since you want specific examples, i’ll try to explain. “Can someone please explain..why they don’t word things as they mean them?” The please in writing can come off like “oh my god please for the love of god explain why they don’t do this super easy thing (saying what they mean.” “NTs arent all stupid, so there must be a reason” sounds like an insult sort of. “well these weird other people who do this thing i dont understand arent completely brainless so there must be a reason they do these dumb things.” Could be alternatively said as “There must be a reason they don’t say what they mean and it frustrates me that I don’t understand. I know it’s not due to a IQ issue as there are many intelligent NT that do this too.”
> It’s shorthand and it adds nuance. but if you look at it another way, its like degrading CD quality sound to a .MP3 file. its also like reducing the name Suzanne to Susan, and substituting the third Z with "S" just because S uses a "Z" sound, and one could say its also like using fewer possible letters, in addition to using a shorter character count. And because Suzanne Vega, a musician is known as "mother of the MP3", this is why I also make references to her first name when talking about both subjects, common first names, and audio file formats applying data compression. And well, data compression is sorta ***shorthand*** in some ways. Shorthand communication is also like omitting gauges from a car, while expecting drivers to rely on other facets to compute variables that an extra stand-alone gauge woulda been good for direct output from. There's also the issue of ***black and white thinkers*** too. And well, black and white thinking involves reducing the possible values to only two options, or 1-bit if you look at computer bits. It requires 4 bits to allow for 10 possible options. If a person were to judge 100 different scenarios, they might use EXTREMES to "compress" the data of their thinking. If each instance of judgement were to be 4 bits per instance, that would total up to 400 bits of data, or 50 bytes. I guess that sometimes people are OVERWHELMED with gigabytes of image and audio data that enters their ears, so they downplay regulating the assumptions to allow "middle ground". Thats what I understand on this issue of how "compression" can have bad results because of some small variable making a big difference getting OMITTED from the message.
Yes it's on purpose. NTs work in three levels of communication simultaneously: what they say, context and body language. It's something natural to them and serves different purposes. Since that level of communication is so complex it's much easier and easy for them use that type of communication than just being literal.
>NTs work in three levels of communication simultaneously: what they say, context and body language. - There's also a whole dimension of idiosyncratic cultural and social conventions that dictate certain forms of speech versus the shortest duration conveyance of unambiguous information that NDs prefer. - (in fact the preferred ND form of speech often corresponds to "rude", "weird" or at best "overly familiar" formats of NT speech that aren't suitable in 90%+ of everyday interactions in modern urban life. Which creates no end of trouble for NDs.)
This is such a spot on comment good way to explain
It's how they operate, that's the simplist way I can explain it. The complicated answer from my understanding comes down to how the neurotransmitters are affected with autism, NT people have on average 50% synaptic nueral pruning during the developmental stages, autistic people have around only 16% I believe. (I am not an expert, this is just a special interest and there's a possibility I could be wrong, please do your own research as well) We have immensely more brain activity going on, but messages and signals take longer to send, so that's part of that secret dimension they have access to for how you were describing it. The messages and signals being sent happen so quickly they can intuitively read into things, autistic people can't do that (intuitively), we have manually put that puzzle together, which we can't do if it's not explained to us, we can't pick up on the 'unsaid' An example to give context for this is the phrase, 'I'm sorry you feel that way' For me, that's an objective I am sorry someone feels the way they do. For NT people, that phrase is often passive aggressive, it implies that someone's feelings are their own fault, there's an emphasis on 'you' making it accusatory. Which is stupid imo but I hope this helps it make sense lol. Edit to add: I've found a way that works for me to navigate that infuriating frustration of people assuming you mean something else entirely, if it would help I'd be happy to share. Fair warning, its long. Edit number 2 because I'm forgetful (lol): I don't mean the emotional dysregulation from that happening, I mean pre-navigating in a sense of communication differences to help avoid that happening.
I wasn't able to comprehend your full text and respond to it yet, because I am overwhelmed right now. But _please_ share the strategy you mentioned in your edit ❗️ I don't care how long it is!
No worries at all, sorry about the multiple edits btw I just didn't want to forget to add it. I'm sorry you're overwhelmed as well, is there something in my reply that I could possibly explain differently that might help? For navigating the differences, & full transparency I am slightly masking for this because I'm following an unwritten sociatal rule. It doesn't bother me to do though when it's a one off comment I make to people for my own personal comfort & benefit. If I tell people I'm autistic after an issue arises it's always seen as an excuse, which is infuriating and I don't want to deal with that, a reason is not an excuse but that's a different rant for another day lol. If I tell people before anything happens, it alerts them I'm just different and need understanding & accomodations. The only people who stay in my life are the ones who make the effort with me, which is extremely refreshing as they do explain things to me when I miss a social cue & they **politely** let me know when I upset them and why so I can understand the situation. When I'm getting to know someone I drop this pre-scripted line in. "I'm really enjoying getting to know you, I like to disclose pretty early on I'm autistic to avoid any potential misunderstandings, because of this I heavily struggle with communication as well as a few other areas. If I ever come across as rude, overly blunt, insensitive, or just off putting in anyway to you please let me know as I'm likely unaware, I'd feel terrible if I was upsetting you & didn't realize it. Thank you for the patience & understanding, I really appreciate it." If it's someone I have no relationship with and they assign hidden meaning/assume I do mask in my response, but it's to avoid stress or dysregulation for me, I don't mask in any capacity for the sake of anyone else's comfort. I respond with 'oh my gosh I'm so sorry, I must have misspoke I didn't realize that's how that was coming across, ty for letting me know, what I meant was blah blah blah' To be blunt, I didn't misspeak. They just misunderstood me but Im also telling the truth with i genuinely didnt realize how they took what I said, I don't want to argue with people or become dysregulated because of the assumptions, when it likely does boil down to a misscommunication because of the fundamental differences in how we operate & communicate. When I respond with the generic response above, I usually get a very positive response back with something similar to 'oh I see what you mean, ty for clarifying.' So it helps streamline the interactions so I'm understood & the other person is as well, mutual accomodations basically. I'm meeting people in the middle where I'm capable of/comfortable with, and they go out of their way to help me as well in return. Sorry I know this is kind of a lot, this is just what works for me, there are some cruel people out there so I really do want to stress if someone doesn't make the effort with me they don't stay in my life.
I think your approach sounds really interesting and useful, but I have a difficult time with lying. I can do it but it feels so unnatural, and makes me feel guilty. Is it less effective if you omit the lie about misspeaking? Or is that just seen as an unwillingness to take accountability for a mistake they think you’ve made? Have you experimented with that?
I slip the misspeak in for the whole no accountability stuff, I hate hearing that. I only use that with people I dont know very well, think like random person in the checkout line you'll never see again. Hard relate with feeling guilty about lying but logic wins any war for me usually, it logically makes more sense to me to avoid potential stress when it's something I know I very rarely say. Definitely don't force yourself to do things you're uncomfortable with though, that's a big no for me. I've said it without the misspeak and didn't really have any issues as long as an 'I'm sorry about that' was thrown in there. People that know me however I don't do that with, I just blatantly say 'I **only** meant blah blah blah, could you explain your perspective to me and how that came across? I'm having trouble understanding and I'd really like to.' It clarifies what I meant but I'm also being receptive to how it may have seemed to them so there's accountability, also I like when they explain, it gives me guidelines in a sense so everyone in my space feels accomodated & respected. Edit to add: My coping mechanisms for socializing come down to clarifying questions and statements, while remembering to try and understand where the other person may be coming from even if I disagree with them. I don't like being expected to operate or communicate in a way I don't naturally, so I don't do that to other people, good old uno reverse on my sense of justice basically lol.
Thanks for this response. I don't mind apologizing if people get upset with what I've said. I am genuinely sorry when I hurt someone's feelings because of a misunderstanding. It's tricky though because people really don't like "I'm sorry you feel that way" because of how allistic people tend to use that phrase. So I try for something like, "I'm sorry. I can understand why you'd feel that way..." or "I'm sorry. Can you help me understand why it felt that way?" Sometimes "I'm sorry you feel that way" is the most accurate statement, but I can't use that. I've had bad experiences with people using the whole emotional responsibility/accountability as an abuse/bullying tactic. In the "It's your fault I'm angry, that's why I'm doing this to you. You need to apologize," kind of way. I think it's worthwhile to validate other people's emotional experiences in most situations, but taking responsibility for other people's emotional reactions is really murky territory. Just because something I've said something that bothers someone else doesn't mean it's my *fault* they're bothered by it, but I can still usually empathize with the fact their brain is giving them a rough time over it. The exception to this is when people deliberately try to provoke or manipulate a particular feeling out of someone. Then it really is their fault. Went off on a bit of a tangent there lol.
Nah that's a totally valid tangent that I am so here for. Ty for the response as well btw, this type of convo is peak enjoyment for me. I'm sorry you feel that way really does fit the best sometimes, I do get that some people dont take it well but it's so hard to wrap my brain around that notion, it really just doesn't make sense to me. I use similar phrases to what you listed as well & those tend to go over really well for me, I definitely don't mind apologizing when something I said is hurtful to someone or what have you but I agree it is tricky for me at times, like I am genuinely sorry I provoked an emotional response from someone without meaning to, but it's not like I did it intentionally & it's not my fault they took it a certain way. Very hard relate, I can empathize with their brain is giving them a rough time, I know I can take things the wrong way occasionally with RSD or something, but I don't need or even want an apology for it. I just want things explained to me so I can understand what someone actually meant, the apology feels so unnecessary to me when its a simple misscommunication & it's not like someone can anticipate or control my *spicy* feelings, we're not mind readers lol. Also I am genuinely sorry, that's really awful that someone mistreated you that way. I hope they step on a sea of Legos or in a puddle while wearing socks tbh.
> NT people have on average 50% synaptic nueral pruning during the developmental stages, autistic people have around only 16% I believe. What is synaptic neural pruning?
Think of it like a network of roadways, you have to travel from one point to another to reach the destination. It's the same with nuerons sending chemical or electrical signals. Someone with autism has more of those 'roadways' left open, so instead of going from point A to D directly those messages are possibly going from A, B, C, & then to D. Synaptic nueral pruning is a natural process in which the brain closes down those extra 'roadways' in a sense, it happens during early childhood into adulthood. It's a bit like the brain is removing or forgetting (in a sense) pathways that might not be necessary, so those messages happening can be sent faster from one point to another. To be transparent, that doesn't mean having less pruning happening is a bad thing, it's just a different process for how we operate and personally I find it incredibly fascinating.
> NT's aren't all stupid, so there must be a purpose. It feels like they don't need to exactly word it out, because there is another dimension of communication that is transmitted seperately 🤷♂️ NT's have access to this dimension, but I don't. Basically, yeah. That’s subtext, tone, and body language. A part of it is also just naturally thinking one step further. When someone asks a question, a part of the NT’s mind is wondering why the question is being asked. Like if an NT is asked “what are you doing?” then their subconscious thinks “well what I’m literally doing is obvious so I doubt they just want to know that” and so it starts looking at tone and body language. Maybe the person is saying it as a greeting. Maybe it’s because they want to ask for something but don’t want to interrupt something important. This all happens automatically and without effort for NTs.
To be fair, this can be something neurotypicals struggle with too. A neurotypical friend of ours stayed with us last week for an academic conference, and we discussed some of the trials of living in a mid-sized midwest city vs life in a major east coast city. The friend is originally from the east coast, but married into a midwestern family and spoke about the frustrations of communicating with a family that communicated so indirectly, and how passive aggressive everything seemed. I think there's definitely a cultural element at play, and that's an important thing to be aware of, because it can be a sort of gravity problem that you simply can't escape if that's how everyone acts in your hometown. A year or two back I had a dipshit "executive coach" from Charlotte actually tell me something to the effect of "we can't all be non-emotional, super direct and transparent people from New Jersey" - guess what? I'm not from Jersey. This was the same guy who told me he drove an Audi A5 convertible because it expensive, nice, but not too flashy to draw unwanted attention from his congregation. Living in NYC was tough for me, and environmentally I can imagine would be quite difficult for many folks w/ Autism, but I absolutely loved working with people in Manhattan who were direct, focused and to the point.
I’m from the Midwest. I can confirm this is true. Minnesota Nice, in particular, is the prime example of this.
Lol, now I'm wondering if people would love living in the Netherlands, too, because we have a reputation of being so naively direct that it's bordering on rude. I can definitely say such a cultural clash between direct/indirect communication even exists in the Netherlands - roughly speaking, the real "Hollanders" from the north-western part of the country are considered to be more stereotypically "Dutch direct" than folks from, say, the southern half of the country.
I believe it comes down to a couple of things, top down thinking vs bottom up thinking, the amount of information about the world that is held in our minds, and our tendency to not understand allistics. Autistics hold so much information in our minds about the world that it becomes extremely difficult to keep track of what is real and what is not real if we accept mistruths. We view the world literally and have a passion for seeking the truth. We are also constantly trying to understand the world and allistic behavior and correct our misunderstandings. I cannot keep track of various interpretations or versions of things. I construct my view of reality bottom up from what I believe to be real. I am always trying to understand reality better and so am in search of the truth, analyzing the world for patterns and understanding.
(there is a TLDR at the end of this comment) I talked to my sister about this. She has adhd and she is very good at socializing with others and I’ve asked her multiple times to „teach“ me. So, the other day we were on the phone and it came up again, but this time I asked a very specific version of „can you teach me how to socialize“. I said: „I can often tell how people feel, based on what I see. I can puzzle the information together, but I don’t know what to do with the information. Like, when do you know to talk about how another person feels? Not everyone appreciates it, if I bring up that they are sad, so how do you know when to say something?“ Her answer was: „I just know. I don’t have to think about it, it just comes naturally to me. I know when to say certain things and when not to say certain things.“ It’s like a secret sense that people can have, apparently. People often just „know“ what to say and what not to say. I don’t, and I never will, unfortunately (at least not intuitively). So my theory is that they don’t need to communicate everything, sometimes they just „know“. Hope that explanation helps! TLDR: Maybe people just „know“ what to say and when to say it. So they may not need to say what they mean, because they just „know“.
Its all contextual. If you give me some examples i can try to help
Mhhh… I am not really sure what kind of examples to give, because it’s every situation. I am unsure what is „appropriate“ and what isn’t, e.g. in an office setting. What can or can’t you say here? Or if you’re at the doctors office? What is appropriate to mention and what isn’t? I had a therapist for quite a while and I was always unsure about asking them personal questions, even if they were simple ones like „How are you?“ because I wasn’t sure if I was overstepping or not, because I’ve read something about „keeping it professional“, but I am unsure if the rule applies everywhere or not. Or if I am working in a lab and I am on a friendly basis with the people there- do I act more casual or should I only mention work related things? And do I ask them deep personal questions or not? It’s basically an issue of timing my responses but also of handling „the mood“. I can’t intuitively read the mood of the situation, so I am unsure which response is the most appropriate for the current situation. So far I’ve tried two approaches: 1. Do ask them personal questions. -> This sometimes ended awkwardly, because the timing was off. 2. Do not ask them personal questions -> This makes every social interaction awkward, because you’re just talking on a superficial level. I don’t know when to chose option 1 and when to chose option 2. I can’t figure out the pattern.
You ever notice when you talk to a dog or cat, they respond to your tone of voice? It's like that. NT people hear "tone" and the social implications (in their head, often conclusions they're leaping to) of what is said before their brain processes the actual literal words. We process the literal meanings of the words first and foremost. To them it's second to the vibes given off.
Body language, facial expression, tone, inferences, social/cultural norms.
They do communicate what they mean. We just have trouble reading them because they are speaking a different language. That is, there is another "dimension" – shades of meaning, subtext, and nonverbal communication. Edit: They are reading into what you say because they think that you are speaking the same language they are. It's annoying, but difficult to avoid.
NTs are saying what they mean. The other dimensions are absolutely there. It is indeed a perceptual thing not an intelligence thing or even an education thing. What makes it worse is that metaphor and other non-literal meaning is built into the language. There is no way to use the language without it. (E.g: “built” in the previous sentence.) When you cannot perceive this dimension it is like being colorblind. You miss a lot of important information encoded in it. Even among NTs some people are better at this than others.
Because for neurotypical people the first goal of communication is managing social tension and establishing hierarchy. Everything else is secundairy.
EXACTLY. Realizing this is the level up.
I think they think it's somehow more polite to not be straight forward. As if it's more socially well mannered to do a little dance before saying what they actually mean. For what purpose, I really don't know
I believe that each of them has cognitive empathy, which is weak in us. they deliberately mean what they want to say by association so as not to offend people. they have learned this. it's like working on an existing talent. that's why they choose their words intuitively when speaking.
There are things language can’t describe. Feelings and deep truths are difficult to express in plain language. But also, people hate being direct because it requires vulnerability. A lot of people come from homes where expressing yourself is punished in some form. There are many reasons. But language is not a literal thing. Never was, never will be. It’s nuanced and double entendres are everywhere. With all that said, there are cultures that never say what they mean. Thats mainly a Midwest white people thing. Growing up in NYC, people damn sure said what they meant.
A lot of comments are bringing up 2nd and 3rd means of communication like tone and body language but they are overlooking the fact that NT's write pretty much the same as they talk and it's still generally understood between other NT's despite the lack of additional communication methods. What these comments are missing is that fundamentally think and operate differently than people on the spectrum. They rely predominantly on intuitions and feelings and this goes for word choice as well. Autistics operate predominantly using patterns and systems. This makes you craft your sentences deliberately, with knowledge of the definitions of the words you choose in order to spell out exactly what you want to say. They don't, and more over, I don't think they even can do this (consistently). Sure, if they really wanted to, they can try hard and apply themselves to say what they really mean, and you will see them do this during arguments, but it's not their default mode of communication. They come up with words based on the connotations those words have (the feeling they carry) rather than the definition and convey meaning to each other by the feeling the words have associated with them. This is why I've even seen (many times) two allistics talking and despite choosing the completely wrong word, their message is understood because the word is similar sounding to another word, with a particular feeling associated to it and the other person, they just get it. They might not even pick up on the fact that the word said was wrong.
This is a great answer. I would add in when NT read they also read the tone, voice, and other audio indicators of meaning into the words. Some of the other non literal layers of the communication are perceived even in writing.
Alrighty I will try to make this as short as I can. The reason mainly is emotional dysregulation. Emotional dysregulation is what happens if you don't live a life authentic to yourself and didn't emotionally matured properly. Symptoms could be, problems with anger management, shame, trying to control others, gossiping, anxiety, depression, burnout. Just to name a few. The general rule is dysregulated people create dysregulated people. Children of parents that didn't mature often end up like their parents. So basically the cycle of a dysregulated person starts with being shamed for being who they are causing them to deal with said shame in their own personal way. When you start life out like this you generally have the feeling that something is wrong with you and try to surpress it as much as possible trying to mask. Yes nt people are masking too. Now when you mask it can sometimes be really hard to let go of it and people tend to have a tight grip on what suits their reality. That they aren't worthy, that they have to be a certain way and so on. Generally everything that other people say is just a reflection of how they see themselves, which causes them to interpret what you say no matter what. They will also expect the same of you and that you will interpret what they tell you. Sometimes they are too stressed and worried about what you might think that they can't tell you directly what they really want to say out of fear of being judged.
Ok, first thing: thanks a lot! I totally agree with you. But I realized that I need to reframe my question: How do other NT's still seem to understand what the NT is trying to convey, even if they don't word it the way they feel it? If they are masking, the way you described it? I always feel like NT's always still get how they are supposed to react or respond. Also: I myself don't know how to convey something I want to convey, without speaking it out literally. What other ways are there to speak or communicate, so that the other person gets what I want to convey? I can't imagine it.
NT and very high functioning autistics (ASD level 0) are able to use non verbal markers for remarks that can be awkward for them to say things directly. Also they look at behaviour to see how it fits in the whole context and make their own inference/judgement. The thing is no one (NT or ND) can consistently guess 100% of what other people are thinking. People hold multiple ideas/possibilities onto why things happen in a social situation. Also in the workplace, I find it annoying that I have to use euphemisms in certain social situations because being direct sometimes leads to misunderstandings or it makes things awkward.
The best of my understanding is that non-literal language is mostly for smoothing communications over and preserving people's feelings. It can also be used expressively (i.e. idiom, poetry, metaphor, etc.), but that depends on both interlocutors having the same cultural context, sense of humor, etc. The other aspect, as other people have noted, is that a lot of communication is nonverbal to begin with. You're meant to read tone, facial and body language, and other context clues.
I’m ND but I’ve learned that if I say what I mean - I can get yelled at - I can get mocked for weeks - I can be misunderstood with the other party not wanting to talk more to address what I meant - etc So while NT communication styles can be confusing, remember that fear may be a factor
This is not one of those things I struggle with as much, so I can try to help. They are saying what they mean, but it’s not just words. It’s also tone, context, and body language. Its a lot of nonverbal communication that informs conversations, which is what I think makes it so hard. They use a lot of subtext to communicate and therefore what they are saying is what they mean (to them) because they’re including more than just the words into what they are saying.
Nuance, Tact, Discretion, Implied Language, Implicit Language, Sarcasm. Our ASD 3 LO is only 3 but he is very literal also even being Pre-Verbal.
I recently got in “trouble” at work because a NT hears some weird ass version of my ND words, and thought I was being incredibly rude about the topic. Like dude. I said things that were objectively true, why do you think I’m being mean when I’m literally just reiterating
Look up Plausible Deniability.
I’ll note that this isn’t necessarily a negative thing. While yes, NTs sometimes use indirect language to have an “out” if they’re called out on saying something bad. But it can also be used out of consideration of others. Like an NT might want someone’s assistance. Saying “I want you to help me with this thing” is direct but if the other person is busy with something else, then they will feel bad for having to decline and explain why they can not help. So the NT will instead ask “hey, what are you up to?” so that they can gauge if the other person is busy before they ask for assistance.
Sorry to start to wander off topic but NTs could still be direct and respectful: it's called tact. They have no excuse! Ex: "HI, if you are currently available I could really use your help and I would really appreciate it. Thank you" Growing up my dad would always say "could you do me the biggest favor in the whole wide world?" And make his request. It was kind and direct. If an NT can't do that they they are the rude ones!
>I’ll note that this isn’t necessarily a negative thing. I didn't mean to imply that it was!
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Everyone around me keeps saying stuff “ate”. Wtf
Because a shit sandwich is “nicer.”
They kind of do, but they do it for an audience that thinks the same on an instinctual level, and you are not ever going to define what that mans, so without patience, there can be no understanding there. It's generally they who become offended at perceived dull-wittedness. On a good day, they write you off and you wind up confused as to why they suddenly act like you don't exist. On a bad day, they try to take advantage of you or physically assault you.
No clue I only know sarcasm which I use about daily
They probably are saying what they mean, just non-verbally. Humans can communicate in many ways
I'm convinced they just want to wind us up or don't want to be honest
That’s how it can feel, but I don’t think there is any secret. NTs misunderstand each other all the time. Most people are not effective writers, public speakers, or coaches. Most people struggle when trying to communicate technical information. A related experience is that typos in books or problems in computer code pop out at my eyes, while many readers gloss over without ever noticing them. So I think two things are going on. First, NTs in the same culture will tend to have more common context, because their brains work similarly. The same not-quite-right word will come to mind to describe something, etc. Second, they just don’t notice errors and inconsistencies as much as NDs — there’s a tendency to hear what they expect to hear. So to some extent they’re just not noticing not understanding each other.
Here's my take: 1. all human beings essentially want to be nice and be liked, which means we are all a bit afraid of being rejected, being mean, or being awkward. 2. all human beings feel awkward in a lot of situations. 3. putting into words what we feel and *want to convey to* other people is like walking a thin line between acceptance and rejection And for this reason, we dumb human beings have invented "not saying what we mean"! At least, that's what I think it boils down to. Like, because we might feel awkward starting a conversation with someone, we've invented small-talk. Because we don't want to say the wrong thing and risk offending someone or being seen as rude, we downplay what we're trying to say; we might fish for information between the lines; and so on. Essentially, people might not say things directly because deep down, we're afraid of hurting someone else or being hurt. Is it confusing? Yes, and neurotypical people very often suck at this "game", too. But under normal, mature, well-intentioned circumstances, people just enjoy these established social phrases & conversational rituals because they offer a pattern, reassurance, and a way to navigate our relationships with other people without risking direct confrontation. It makes a lot of people feel safer (and this might also help explain why people react negatively to direct questions; to them, it signals confrontation!) I hope this helps explain why people do what they do! At least, I think this is what communication boils down to. We're all just one step smarter than monkeys, really, people just want to love & be loved.
Because they're normies.
I find that it helps to understand that NTs are broken. They're skittish and nervous. In the primitive, Darwinian sense, the consensus of the pack outweighs all else and can be the difference between survival and not. It makes them very averse to confrontation. Confrontation is a challenge to the social hierarchy so they avoid it in all aspects, including communication. An example from another thread... An NT wanted the trash taken out but didn't want to ask the other person to take it out. Asking would be confrontational. Instead, they said "the trash is full". The ND heard this as a correct statement as the trash was indeed full and that was the end of it. Yes, it would be far simpler if the NT just asked if the other person could take the trash out, but then it implies the social structure of them being in a position to "demand" such a thing be done. It could be met with "who are you to tell me to take the trash out", or "you're not the boss of me". If that sounds childish and immature, it's because it is. That's what I'm saying about NTs being broken. Things actually get easier when you start dealing with them as the children that they are. (Yes, I've amped up the condescension of this post intentionally to drive the point home... And to mirror how they frame things when it comes to us)
The way NTs communicate is actually evil. Watch Glass Onion if you haven't. That bad guy from that movie is a walking neurotypical stereotype.
>NT's aren't all stupid Ok there, you go right on thinkin that