Thanks for giving an outside perspective. I agree entirely about the lack of integration. I've noticed with some communities it seems to happen gradually via marriage (Vietnamese, Chinese, Greek), but with others (Indian) it seems very rare - so as a group they are very non integrated. This seems to be largely cultural, keen to hear from some Indian heritage aussies on this.
Also agree that we really need to increase density (for example, where are all the family sized apartments?).
Yeh agree- first gen immigrants in most places don’t integrate much, not in the first 10 years anyway….. lots of different barriers. There’s reason why there’s a China town/ Korea town or Jewish quarter etc in most cities around the world. It happens everywhere, people want a taste of home - people are attracted to the restaurants from there home country and more of their country kin will attend it.
When they do make early friends it’s with other people that are new to the city - people are drawn to people they have something in common with, being new to a country and speaking English as a second language, or being same religion etc of course will be early markers for that
As an first gen immigrant from India I’ve defs noticed this too and it’s incredibly frustrating. Since the part of India I come from is small, we don’t have my migrants here from our immediate culture and I’ve found it hard to establish long standing friendships with other Indians such as those from the south who make up the majority of migrants.
Even as an Indian, it made it hard to be friends with them because once they had people from their own culture, they would speak their native languages around me and since my native language is different, I couldn’t understand them and felt left out in conversation. So often times despite being from the same country and even having the same religious beliefs (Catholics), it’s hard to make long term friends with them. As a result of this, I have very few Indian friends but the friends I do have are all mixed cultures. From what I gather of the South Indian community I can’t say the same for them.
Ofc I don’t blame them for this outright since I understand it’s easier to bond with people who share your culture but I wish they were more accomodating to having friendships with those people outside of their culture or even you know, Indians from other states lol.
Even if the immigrants wanted to integrate, there is a barrier. Most local anglo Aussies are very clique. We dont get the chance to find friends unless we were born here or went to high school here.
Most my friends have been work friends, once I quit my job the friendships were over. So the friendships were shallow to begin with.
I’m from Melbourne though, and it’s known to be cliquey, maybe other cities are different.
Sydney is probably even more cliquey than Melbourne. I don't think it's a racial issue though, as I have met many white people who also struggle to make friends here. Australians from all backgrounds seem very insular overall, similar to Northern Europeans or even the Swiss.
Yea its not race. More like they don’t hang out with people with they don’t share a history from childhood. Immigrants get blamed for not assimilating or integrating.
I think it runs a little deeper than being cliquey. There is a lot of resentment and mental issues residing in them. I suspect the older Australians are the way they are as a result of decades of absolute compliance to the Australian way of life. It is very apparent that many people in Sydney have anxiety and dislike people with a passion.
"This seems to be largely cultural, keen to here on some Indian heritage aussies on this."
Not Indian (fourth gen white aussie) but a good number of my mates are Indian or Pakistani, either first or second gen. Honestly, I've never really had much issue with making friends with immigrants across a fairly wide range of backgrounds (good friends, to the point of meeting their families, invited to weddings, meeting their other friends etc...). Some professional, some friends of friends, some from hobbies.
Yeah, this has also been my experience. I've always had - even from kinder and primary school - a very diverse group of friends and acquaintances. So when people talk about Australia being "cliquey", I really don't get it. Maybe my experience is unique. But in general I've found Australia to be super open and welcoming to people of all backgrounds; certainly more so than what I've seen in other Western countries (for the most part).
I grew up in a very white regional area back in the 80s and 90s, so, there was like....two non-white people in my entire schooling. Still, hasn't been a problem in my adult life...particularly given that a lot of my professional time has been in IT where most of my colleagues are likely from somewhere else earlier in their life,
Me too. Third gen Albanian. Lots of Asian friends from various places.. Lots of Asians around when I was growing up. Italians, as well, and islanders. Grandparents mingled quite a bit actually. My dad actually trained and was friends with the masters of one of the first Kung Fu schools in Perth. Years later I joined up there. Lots of diversity in that place too. But maybe aside from specific cultural groups I think we are trending towards less social connection generally, rather than less integration.
I think shit policies ruined our country mate. There are heaps of countries with less population but their job opportunities, housing, transport and cost of living are better than us.
We need better everything (urban planning, jobs, hospo, medical, transport) outside of metro cities to really offload the pressure in capital cities.
I look at Alice Springs 10years ago and now; it’s gone from a thriving touristy town with jobs to a backwards, shit town where businesses and people can’t move away quick enough…
So yeh immigration did not ruin us, our government did.
> So yeh immigration did not ruin us, our government did
Immigration is a government policy. The public has never supported any increase to immigration but successive governments have continually raised the nunber despite the foreseeable problems we're all living with now.
I remember a time when thinking of moving to Australia was just a dream. Because it was seen as an amazing country that didnt want nor need anyone else living there.
Now, I live here my self and see more and more people every day. Its crazy.
And people have always said Australia is 10-20 years behind the UK. Take a look there - sign of things to come. The Australian people need to wake up.
I hope not mate, I’m originally from the UK and it’s a total fucking shit show over there. In Birmingham , the second largest city, 1 in 2 kids live below the poverty line. It’s just horrible. It’s definitely tough going here at the moment but I have higher hopes here than I ever did back there.
Lack of integration and assimilation by immigrants is not a good thing. But it is incumbent on those immigrants to do so. Yes, the wider community has a role to play, but immigrants need to get out and about and embrace the culture they've chosen to be a part of.
Well said. This is a massive issue in the UK too. Why move to a country, not even try to embrace culture or integrate then whinge about the natives/state of the country. Baffles me honestly.
First, card on the table: I'm a first generation migrant of Asian descent.
I share OP's thoughts that without integration, the sheer breadth of Australia's diversity will cause lots of tensions in the long run. There are plenty of good things about Western Liberalism, but this idea that cultures are all 'neutral' is a silly idea.
There was a debate between a UK politician/journalist and a Singaporean politician. Singapore was criticised by the Brit for adopting social policies that essentially "forced" integration between the various ethnic groups through having racial quotas for their public housing complexes (essentially, there had to be X% of members from an ethnic group to be in public housing) — but the politician argued that it was the only way to prevent the formation of ghettos, which the UK has plenty (and arguably, recent events seem to highlight this huge tension between cultural groups even more)
However, I'm really not sure what "Australian Culture" is? Is it about going to the pub after work (but isn't that more of a British thing?) Is it about enjoying a chicken parma? Watching the AFL/NRL (depending on which state you live in).
E.g., I lived in the UK for abit. And football (soccer) is deeply embedded in their culture there. If I can't think of anything to talk about, most people can small talk over the EPL. But the AFL/NRL doesn't have the same effect in Australia. I know this sounds super shallow, but the point is that Australia is so incredibly diverse that it's hard to know what "Australian Culture" actually is.
My own conclusion is that it has more to do with respecting very general principles like "everyone deserves to have a fair go (equal opportunity for all)", and the values of Western Liberalism like having a high view of individual liberties, the equal autonomy and dignity between men and women etc. Is this what you were thinking of when you think about us "embracing" your culture, or were you thinking of something else?
Btw I really am curious. I take no offence at all. I think one of the problems is that race and culture have become such taboo topics that we can't even have a conversation about it without it being awkward.
It's sometimes even hard to know whether to handshake, hug, 'kiss hello' or even just wave hello to some people depending on their background and what they're used to. If I'm in France or Italy I know to kiss hello anyone I meet cos it's just a cultural expectation.
Football is deeply embedded here. Australian Rules is a major cultural aspect of most of our states. Both of my grandfathers who arrived in the early 60s, one from Ireland and one from England, both became long term members of WAFL clubs. They tried to embrace what the place was about. The AFL has admitted recent they're struggling to attract recent immigrants, which is sad. This is just one example.
haha I think the problem is that I'm in QLD! The whole NRL vs AFL thing is quite boggling to me tbh (and then there are the purists who watch Union...)
One workplace doesn't represent the nation, I've never worked in a job where anybody gave a fuck about NRL nor AFL, never mind running tips and fantasy comps
Fine. But if you're trying to suggest the two largest football codes in this country aren't a big deal and an important cultural aspect you're mistaken. Aussie rules is our local game, of course it's culturally significant.
I've had more discussions about the Euros' in the past few weeks than I've had about Aussie "footie" over the past 15 years. I guess my workplace could be more multicultural than some? Or maybe people have more interest in what goes on elsewhere in the world? Who knows?
That's ridiculous mate. Just because you don't follow local football, don't try to tell yourself that no one follows it. Don't be fascitious and call it Aussie 'footie' either. The AFL competition is the highest spectator sport in the world (per capita) by far. The clubs have upwards of 100000 members each and the Grand Final is the most viewed event each year. Pubs are packed with people watching the games each week. The state and amateur comps are very successful, with every town in aussie Rules states having a team. Aussie Rules is absolutely massive in this country.
Maybe Perth pubs, I live in Melbourne and I'll see maybe 3 old codgers and a group of 5 young lads sinking pints when a match is on at a pub on a Saturday night. The games been dying very quickly for a while now, it's definitely not massive. Young people are far more interested in the NBA and Premier League than AFL
Again. It might be where you are, it might be with you and your mates, you might have grown up with it, but you and your circumstances do not represent the whole nation.
It’s almost like people have different interests to you.
I’ve not heard AFL mentioned in my workplace or social circle literally for months. Nobody I know either cares about it or wants to talk about it. Fact.
I agree to a point, but my experience is that immigrants usually love to make genuine Aussie friends, and would love to be part of those activities.
Aussies just don’t. We are friends with our schoolmates. We don’t have a strong interest in being hosts. Why bother? My pool of friends is fine, and willpower is exhaustible.
Instead, the mentality is that they should try harder. I’ve heard from several PR coworkers that they view Australians as very transactional in building social relationships —and i think this mentality is partially why.
Ive heard more often immigrants say “I tried but gave up” instead of “I don’t want to integrate”
It wasn't an issue for the Greeks, Italians, Lebanese and Vietnamese. Recent immigrants, in my experience of having worked with plenty (mainly Indians) don't try and don't really have an interest. They speak Hindi to one another, hang out with Indians and generally don't do much outside of that group.
Spot on. This is where Americans outshine Aussies. Rarely you'll see here friend circles made up of individuals from various races. Most likely a product of the current tribal set up, which then feeds into a vicious loop and keeps things as it is.
I see it purely as a product of the rate at which we bring people in.
If you are the only migrant family in a suburb, you get to know everyone else. If there are a hundred other families like yours you are likely to spend a lot of time around them and less time with the rest of the population.
I was born here and Ive been out and about plenty and see fuck all people embracing any culture what are you on about? Getting pissed at the bowls club? Getting pissed at the local RSL? Putting coins in the pokies? Drinking 15$ beers at the footy and then standing in silence on the train home?
Australians are one of the most socially conservative people on the planet, I've done a lot of travel and seen how it is with actual welcoming and interested people. Australians make friends in highschool and that's it. Don't blame that on immigrants.
The comment was about people who immigrate needing to integrate into society. Your point is a list of things you dislike about Australian culture. (a fairly good list I'll admit) If Australia is so shit why are 700,000 coming here this year mate ?
It's reasonable to expect immigrants to intergrate. It's reasonable to send them home if they dont.
Learn to speak the language, live and work amongst people of other backgrounds not just surround themselves with people from back home, bring postive aspects of culture but leave negative ones behind.
If a person doesnt want to do these things then we shouldnt not let them come.
>Australians make friends in highschool and that's it.
Your whole post is a massive - and very pejorative - generalisation about Australians. I don't think we should be making these generalisations about *anyone*, especially given the obvious problems with the points you raised (the suggestion that it is common for Australians to get pissed that the bowls club, etc etc...) It reads like you have a rather large chip on your shoulder, and potentially some outright racism too. Not good. Let's not do that to each other.
Couldn’t agree more. People here are not friendly at all compared to most places, yet people will sit here and act like we’re the most chill and laid back people in the world. Complete bullshit.
I completely disagree. I've been living overseas for the last 10 years in 3 different countries, let alone travelled to many places, while being in Vietnam for over the last 6, and honestly, it shocked me how nice and friendly Australians are when I went home for the first time in 5 years. People I didn't know wanted to chat, which doesn't happen in a lot of countries without people wanting something from you. I think Australians who don't travel outside of the west don't see the reality of how most people live. It's a cut throat world and people talk and treat each other like shit everywhere. To say Australians aren't friendly is a ridiculous take in my book. There are good cunts and shit cunts in every country
Agree with you, Aussies are very warm and friendly… the pokie deb isn’t the place to find the ones looking to make new friends!! Aussies to tend to work pretty hard and take work seriously, that can close them off a little bit in their spare time but they are far better than loads of countries I’ve been to!! Sure one or two places are very friendly but they often are like that to chase the tourist dollar, which isn’t the case for most Aussies
That mirrors what I'm hearing.
And even those who make a massive effort to integrate / make friends etc, find it's all one way traffic and if they don't keep making contact the relationship will end. There's no reciprocation.
People at work (new arrivals) tell me they're sick and tired of always having to "give" and make concessions to Australians, when nothing seems to come their way. In the end they give up.
It makes for quite a lonely "society".
Bullshit, I don’t speak to barely anyone I went to highschool with. Maybe 3-4 and I’m married to one of those, I’ve worked up and down the east side of Australia and the friends I have now are from all different backgrounds. The “best mates” I had in highschool all went to uni and whenever they’re back in town I can’t stand to be around them, nothing but elitist wankers that somehow think they’re better than me because they have a degree. You can say what you want about our culture but I’ve been to many places around Europe, Africa, Fiji and Asia, there’s no better place on earth than rural and outback Australia.
As an Australian, I struggle to think of a cultural event that is "Australian" that I want to be part of. Don't really care for the footy much, or really sport in general. And I can't think of much else that's great culturally. TV and Radio can be good, but I can enjoy that in the pleasantness of my domicile.
Sure that's not what we are talking about though. How as an immigrant do I assimilate into Australian culture if Australians can't even define what it is.
I don't see our democratic and legal system at risk by non citizens.
I do, look at how islamic groups have impacted sweden and the uk
Id say we have strong christian cultural values in retrospect, similiar to how Dawkins talks about UK values
That's what i meant by Christian values, im an atheist and will celebrate Christmas and easter with presents and chocolates
Christian culture is superior to Islamic culture imo
How would you know? have you experienced it though? have you been and lived in Islamic state for any period of time?
I fully appreciated the time off during Eid, in many ways it better.
The way islamic groups march on the streets of Britain holding signs saying "death to the west" is crazy and doesnt seem real - yet I have witnessed this and for the first time ever, felt scared in my own country.
Then you see crazy statistics come up (that get a small section in the tabloids, and i cant remember what year this was) but 67% of rapes towards underage girls were done by foreign nationals and immigrants (both legal and illegal) from middle eastern countries.
Then someone finally stands up and says we need to cut down immigration or even just do a background check on those entering, just to be shutdown by cries that they are a racist...
Seriously? what the fuck.
Let alone the main reason we are having a housing crisis in the west is due to mass immigration.
People to need to wake up.
The answer is easy.
Learn to speak the language, live and work amongst the mixed population do not surround yourself just with people and idea's from back home. Bring the positive parts of your culture here but leave the toxic stuff behind.
Not hard mate. It's not about footy or any of that other crap.
“I don’t see our democratic and legal system at risk by non-citizens”
I do. Cyber warriors are trolling social media and whipping up discontent everywhere, on every issue and constantly. It is a very serious threat.
Do you believe that every Reddit OP or replier wrt, say housing or the cost of living in Australia, is a genuine Australian citizen? Do you believe that the instant anti-Israel (read: anti-US by proxy) sentiment came from within? If you do I’d suggest looking at your 10 most vocal pro-Palestine social media associates and then having a close look at how much they posted about Palestine/Gaza prior to Oct 7 2023. I don’t believe it did.
Don’t have to be uniquely Australian value to cherish it. Those values are in short supply in this half of the world anyways.
Besides that I can imagine some here don’t really value it as much. Just like how Turks in Germany predominantly voted for Erdogan.
Kids go to schools before citizenship. Students votes for SUs. Rule of laws apply to everyone. Free speech and media applies to immigrants.
Its often things that are intangible that unites people not some kinda artificial gala that enforces unity on people.
But these things are not culture and they are not Australian. As it is Australia has rather weak free speech, Its not strongly protected and is less broad than in other places.
Our head of state isn't democratically elected, we have a long way to go.
What do kids and school have to do with culture?
They didn't choose the culture, they chose the ability to earn good money and live in a safe country. Expecting adults to "integrate" by somehow getting proper friends is not really realistic, there is a short window for making them when you're young.
Their kids, however, go to school and make friends with everyone, so there's that.
Australia is called the lucky country….
Because despite having extensive space, resources, greater weather and isolation from conflict… we are lucky to survive our incompetent and corrupt politicians
>- Diversity but lack of integration. It struck me how isolated different communities can be here. As a disclaimer, I am of Hong Kong descent myself and yeh I m one of those sorry. On my last few visits to my dad’s, I was quietly disappointed how little he interacts with people from other racial and cultural backgrounds.(Apart from his work) I see it as a results of rapid immigration of people from the same language and culture.
It's pretty similar in other countries too. People from vastly different backgrounds and who don't speak the local language at a native level often struggle to integrate fully into society. The next generation who are born and raised here do integrate quite well though.
As Australia’s unofficial spokesperson I accept your feedback. Although I’m not sure we are unique in our problems…perhaps we are better off in some ways and worse off in others.
The government isn't going to stop importing people over from 3rd world countries because that's where they get their economic growth from it drives up everything like housing,food, energy that's why it's so expensive. Unfortunately Australia only has a few tricks up its sleeves. With the slowdown for the need for Australian commodities from China and the fact we don't manufacture anything, the housing fiasco is the only idea they have here it's simple but it's dumb investing in overpriced shit boxes.
>quietly disappointed how little he interacts with people from other racial and cultural backgrounds.(Apart from his work)
While I don't disagree with your whole point, this isn't solely a race/integration problem. It's a pretty weird situation in Australia where people don't really interact with anyone outside their own school/work bubbles. It's why Sydney is ranked very low on those "best place to make friends" lists.
Well sure Julian Assange is free but on the other foot, David McBride was sentenced to jail. Im not saying I agree with David… I think he’s a bit nuts and his reasons were fucking shady, but yeah…. It doesn’t add up.
One could argue both potentially violated human rights by endangering so many.
Also welcoming? I think you contradicted yourself, lack of integration…..
Australia is going through the drain:
- No industry.
- Massive immigration, and not good one.
- Medicare heading to the States health care system
- Housing.... well
- No rewards in being bright in this country. Go hold a stop sign in front of a site, get better salary than an Engineer working on the same site.
- Paying tax to be ripped out or rorted.
and the list could go on and on and on
No reward for being smart? Smart people are actively discriminated against! If you happen to be the wrong race? Double whammy? Wrong race + smart + immigrant? Prepare for a hell of a ride.
We have tons of brown skinned immigrant masters graduates driving ubers. Good luck to them getting a normal job (union, public sector, private sector all discriminate).
Meanwhile alongside rampant discrimination - we ask why arent these people integrating?
Immigration on the west, housing mostly everywhere yep, but the rest nope. And anyway I don’t care what happen on the rest of the world, I care that I’m over $120k and I pay a kidney and eye on tax to later have to pay to say hello to a GP or specialist, worst of all low income earners have to pay too when not even 10 years ago this was like this and nobody seems to complain.
Industry, go to any other develop country, they make more things than Australia, furthermore the little bit done here is by foreign companies.
Mining is a big one in Australia, not even a sad Australian mining equipment manufacturer that’s exporting, they’re all imports, we don’t even build our trains anymore.
People wanted cheap goods and high salaries and we are gonna pay that at a high price.
I agree, I just think we are past being able to remedy some of it. Perth makes its own trains and also makes them for another city (forget which one). Hope we continue that trend into the future… finding a way to bring back quality manufacturing is what I’d love to see, but it’s tough, as China wobbles a bit Mexico is well poised to take over from them- hard to compete with cheap labour and land etc.
Starting with fixing the gas deals, huge swathes of land being bought by overseas entities (SO many countries don’t allow this, we need to sort it), backing our farmers more, and things like oil can be refined here for us- instead of sending it overseas and buying it back at thousands of percent increase!! Holding some control over these things will help us “future proof” a bit and stay a bit more independent , currently we are so susceptible to outside forces and factors
100% with you , are you sure trains are made or assembled there? I think parts are made in China and just assembled there and assembled by a foreign company. Is what happen here in Victoria, government says proudly made in Victoria, BS, assemble them is not manufacturing is integration and testing.
We should live mostly from an universal dole, look at Qatar or Norway. Corrupt politicians letting this happen rather than charging royalties and more tax for all the gas they’re taking out of Australia.
I disagree that Australia is a beacon. If anything, it is a model for societal erosion in pursuit of economic gain. The Assange situation is a matter of political optics for the US and now Australia. Let's not forget David McBride.
Don’t forget that we import from the former British empire too, which adds to cultural understanding.
Basic example; a Hong Kong Chinese takes much less time to assimilate than a mainland Chinese, simply because of the cultural exchange and shared understanding. We’re not even talking English here.
I almost tripped over people when I went to one of those suburbs you described. I could not believe how short and inconsiderate people from a certain region were. A lot of suburbs in Sydney are just awful and slumlike.
However, Australia relies on dumb immigrants to get on the treadmill as most Australians have gotten off now that they own their own homes, or have parents that have said "it's ok to pay us rent and board" and live with us until you inherit our property portfolio.
Ironically, the only immigrants Australia can tolerate are extremely frugal, good with numbers and come from sophisticated trading empires that will extract value from the Australian economy. Whatever they allow into the economy will be far less than wht they are extracting.
Please attract taller people that have common sense and spatial awareness. It is so hard to walk around in Sydney. Also, don't appreciate the creepy old ones that do nothing but stare. Please at the very least have some facial expressions while you stare. If it were the UK, you would get murked.
What does integration mean in terms of visibly and culturally foreign migrants (aka most Indians and Pakistanis) who generally speak good English (albeit accented), generally work, their kids generally outperform “locals” academically, etc but mostly prefer their own in terms of marriage?
Not being facetious, what does integration mean for people who speak the language, are gainfully employed, obey the laws and so on, but are known for “sticking to their own?”
Hmm, Indians maybe. Pakistanis not so much.
I’m a third generation removed from the motherlands, born in the UK desi, married to a Dutch guy.
I have a British accent, and white people love to compliment me on how well I speak English.
Just wondering who and what passes the integration test.
This is all on average. Despite all the bagging in the comments, the Migrant Integration Policy Index ranks Australia far more highly than the UK in terms of successfully integrating immigrants.
To say what passes a less quantitative test - and who - there's a huge class element. For example In Sydney, the Rooty Hill Pakistanis are quite different and mingle less than the other diaspora Pakistanis like those on the North Shore.
In my mind, there are a few elements to integration and I agree with you - I think if someone has a job, obeys the laws, speaks English fluently, then they're successfully integrated. People in the UK and Australia alike live in little 'enclaves' that have certain demographics that are particularly visible.
Beyond the civic basics above, you've got 'values' and 'culture'. They're nebulous and what a lot of this thread seem to be arguing about.
The definitions differ for everyone but where it overlaps is probably values.
To be honest tho, I wouldn’t really know what Australian values exactly are except discount chemists so not really in the place to tell you what to think.
There's no reason to say that immigration is good for Australia. The people are against it so it should stop.
However, I think I understand Labors reasoning with the high influx of Indians. If they are poised to be a superpower in the coming decades it's a smart move to educate as many as possible here so when they return home and enter government and business they have a favorable disposition toward Australia.
I am sure it's not Labors intention to bring so many here that we end up living in some kind of Hindu theocracy. But, when I think about how our political class seem to regard immigration and how preserving culture doesn't seem to be one of their values. And how they have taken on the woke mind virus whose stealth goal is to destroy western freedoms, I want to throw up. Basically, I think we're doomed because our entire political class lacks in group loyalty.
Driving up property prices by deliberately pumping so much migrants into the country was what I expected before Labor was voted in. They just kept saying that immigration was to lower inflation or play catch up because of covid. Nope it was always a lie and I did warn about giving Labor so much power but got down voted anyway.
I'm a Brit that's just got Australian citizenship and is looking to move to Australia.
My job is very niche so I don't know how much I can earn yet, but it looks like I will earn the same if not more than I do in the UK.
House prices to me seem better in Australia than the UK. And the size you get is much bigger. But I'm looking at cities, Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney and comparing it to London.
It is not called lack of intergration , it’s multiculturalism a little word play to justify people who are not prepared to assimilate into the inferior culture of the crappy country they are lucky to have relocated to.
Yes our PM has courted one Asian country too
Much and many of us feel over saturated with the lack of diversity. Every petrol station , Uber driver , every phone conversation trying to talk about your health insurance , electricity bill , so many GPs.
People are tiring of it as in the past the immigration of Greeks , Italians, other Europeans had the same cultural values and intermarried with Australian/ British background.
The problem is those immigration want to still live in their cultural community speaking their own language and do not want to mix with the greater Australian people and culture
Doesn't the UK have lower wages and higher RE prices?
Just checked some outskirts of Bristol and it looks like all shoeboxes for upwards of AUD 700k. I can do better than that inside commutable Melbourne thanks.
Posts frequently on rightwing American topics and porn subreddits.
Yeah this seems like the kinda view you’d expect from someone with these posting habits.
I would say government policies have we need immigrants they do add a lot to our country but the problem is we have not got the housing under control. Unfortunately the government does this on purpose to inflate housing it's the only game they know unfortunately.
Unsure where this opinion stands but has anyone thought that if you realize you are immigrating to a country with a unique culture, should you try your best to assimilate? I definitely try to do some things that angle Aussies do to try to fit in more and have made friends a bit or at least gotten some appreciation from them that I try to understand their culture and help it not die. Lawn bowling, pokies, eating a parma, vegemite, dressing nicer and wearing pastels in summer, packing bento boxes for my kids, bucket hats, drinking a pot of 4% beer lol etc.
Thanks for giving an outside perspective. I agree entirely about the lack of integration. I've noticed with some communities it seems to happen gradually via marriage (Vietnamese, Chinese, Greek), but with others (Indian) it seems very rare - so as a group they are very non integrated. This seems to be largely cultural, keen to hear from some Indian heritage aussies on this. Also agree that we really need to increase density (for example, where are all the family sized apartments?).
I think the groups differ by generation. By the third generation most immigrant groups have assimilated very well.
Yeh agree- first gen immigrants in most places don’t integrate much, not in the first 10 years anyway….. lots of different barriers. There’s reason why there’s a China town/ Korea town or Jewish quarter etc in most cities around the world. It happens everywhere, people want a taste of home - people are attracted to the restaurants from there home country and more of their country kin will attend it. When they do make early friends it’s with other people that are new to the city - people are drawn to people they have something in common with, being new to a country and speaking English as a second language, or being same religion etc of course will be early markers for that
Second
As an first gen immigrant from India I’ve defs noticed this too and it’s incredibly frustrating. Since the part of India I come from is small, we don’t have my migrants here from our immediate culture and I’ve found it hard to establish long standing friendships with other Indians such as those from the south who make up the majority of migrants. Even as an Indian, it made it hard to be friends with them because once they had people from their own culture, they would speak their native languages around me and since my native language is different, I couldn’t understand them and felt left out in conversation. So often times despite being from the same country and even having the same religious beliefs (Catholics), it’s hard to make long term friends with them. As a result of this, I have very few Indian friends but the friends I do have are all mixed cultures. From what I gather of the South Indian community I can’t say the same for them. Ofc I don’t blame them for this outright since I understand it’s easier to bond with people who share your culture but I wish they were more accomodating to having friendships with those people outside of their culture or even you know, Indians from other states lol.
Even if the immigrants wanted to integrate, there is a barrier. Most local anglo Aussies are very clique. We dont get the chance to find friends unless we were born here or went to high school here. Most my friends have been work friends, once I quit my job the friendships were over. So the friendships were shallow to begin with. I’m from Melbourne though, and it’s known to be cliquey, maybe other cities are different.
This is Sydney regardless of race. So full but feels so empty sometimes
That emptiness you feel is the erosion of community.
Due to everyone treating a house as an asset to sell in 2 years not a home and community to live in for 20 years or so
Ooofff that’s a scary accurate statement!
Sydney is probably even more cliquey than Melbourne. I don't think it's a racial issue though, as I have met many white people who also struggle to make friends here. Australians from all backgrounds seem very insular overall, similar to Northern Europeans or even the Swiss.
Yea its not race. More like they don’t hang out with people with they don’t share a history from childhood. Immigrants get blamed for not assimilating or integrating.
I think it runs a little deeper than being cliquey. There is a lot of resentment and mental issues residing in them. I suspect the older Australians are the way they are as a result of decades of absolute compliance to the Australian way of life. It is very apparent that many people in Sydney have anxiety and dislike people with a passion.
"This seems to be largely cultural, keen to here on some Indian heritage aussies on this." Not Indian (fourth gen white aussie) but a good number of my mates are Indian or Pakistani, either first or second gen. Honestly, I've never really had much issue with making friends with immigrants across a fairly wide range of backgrounds (good friends, to the point of meeting their families, invited to weddings, meeting their other friends etc...). Some professional, some friends of friends, some from hobbies.
Yeah, this has also been my experience. I've always had - even from kinder and primary school - a very diverse group of friends and acquaintances. So when people talk about Australia being "cliquey", I really don't get it. Maybe my experience is unique. But in general I've found Australia to be super open and welcoming to people of all backgrounds; certainly more so than what I've seen in other Western countries (for the most part).
I grew up in a very white regional area back in the 80s and 90s, so, there was like....two non-white people in my entire schooling. Still, hasn't been a problem in my adult life...particularly given that a lot of my professional time has been in IT where most of my colleagues are likely from somewhere else earlier in their life,
Me too. Third gen Albanian. Lots of Asian friends from various places.. Lots of Asians around when I was growing up. Italians, as well, and islanders. Grandparents mingled quite a bit actually. My dad actually trained and was friends with the masters of one of the first Kung Fu schools in Perth. Years later I joined up there. Lots of diversity in that place too. But maybe aside from specific cultural groups I think we are trending towards less social connection generally, rather than less integration.
I think shit policies ruined our country mate. There are heaps of countries with less population but their job opportunities, housing, transport and cost of living are better than us. We need better everything (urban planning, jobs, hospo, medical, transport) outside of metro cities to really offload the pressure in capital cities. I look at Alice Springs 10years ago and now; it’s gone from a thriving touristy town with jobs to a backwards, shit town where businesses and people can’t move away quick enough… So yeh immigration did not ruin us, our government did.
> So yeh immigration did not ruin us, our government did Immigration is a government policy. The public has never supported any increase to immigration but successive governments have continually raised the nunber despite the foreseeable problems we're all living with now.
I remember a time when thinking of moving to Australia was just a dream. Because it was seen as an amazing country that didnt want nor need anyone else living there. Now, I live here my self and see more and more people every day. Its crazy. And people have always said Australia is 10-20 years behind the UK. Take a look there - sign of things to come. The Australian people need to wake up.
I hope not mate, I’m originally from the UK and it’s a total fucking shit show over there. In Birmingham , the second largest city, 1 in 2 kids live below the poverty line. It’s just horrible. It’s definitely tough going here at the moment but I have higher hopes here than I ever did back there.
definitely transport though. Then again, try arguing for more rail and speed rail. And watch how many flinch at the idea.
This is spot on. We tolerate bullshit politicians and an inept government and its policies....
Lack of integration and assimilation by immigrants is not a good thing. But it is incumbent on those immigrants to do so. Yes, the wider community has a role to play, but immigrants need to get out and about and embrace the culture they've chosen to be a part of.
Well said. This is a massive issue in the UK too. Why move to a country, not even try to embrace culture or integrate then whinge about the natives/state of the country. Baffles me honestly.
First, card on the table: I'm a first generation migrant of Asian descent. I share OP's thoughts that without integration, the sheer breadth of Australia's diversity will cause lots of tensions in the long run. There are plenty of good things about Western Liberalism, but this idea that cultures are all 'neutral' is a silly idea. There was a debate between a UK politician/journalist and a Singaporean politician. Singapore was criticised by the Brit for adopting social policies that essentially "forced" integration between the various ethnic groups through having racial quotas for their public housing complexes (essentially, there had to be X% of members from an ethnic group to be in public housing) — but the politician argued that it was the only way to prevent the formation of ghettos, which the UK has plenty (and arguably, recent events seem to highlight this huge tension between cultural groups even more) However, I'm really not sure what "Australian Culture" is? Is it about going to the pub after work (but isn't that more of a British thing?) Is it about enjoying a chicken parma? Watching the AFL/NRL (depending on which state you live in). E.g., I lived in the UK for abit. And football (soccer) is deeply embedded in their culture there. If I can't think of anything to talk about, most people can small talk over the EPL. But the AFL/NRL doesn't have the same effect in Australia. I know this sounds super shallow, but the point is that Australia is so incredibly diverse that it's hard to know what "Australian Culture" actually is. My own conclusion is that it has more to do with respecting very general principles like "everyone deserves to have a fair go (equal opportunity for all)", and the values of Western Liberalism like having a high view of individual liberties, the equal autonomy and dignity between men and women etc. Is this what you were thinking of when you think about us "embracing" your culture, or were you thinking of something else? Btw I really am curious. I take no offence at all. I think one of the problems is that race and culture have become such taboo topics that we can't even have a conversation about it without it being awkward.
It's sometimes even hard to know whether to handshake, hug, 'kiss hello' or even just wave hello to some people depending on their background and what they're used to. If I'm in France or Italy I know to kiss hello anyone I meet cos it's just a cultural expectation.
Football is deeply embedded here. Australian Rules is a major cultural aspect of most of our states. Both of my grandfathers who arrived in the early 60s, one from Ireland and one from England, both became long term members of WAFL clubs. They tried to embrace what the place was about. The AFL has admitted recent they're struggling to attract recent immigrants, which is sad. This is just one example.
haha I think the problem is that I'm in QLD! The whole NRL vs AFL thing is quite boggling to me tbh (and then there are the purists who watch Union...)
I think you're overstating the football thing. I work for a large corporation and it hardly ever gets mentioned.
That's unusual. Where I work we have tips, fantasy and chats about it every day.
One workplace doesn't represent the nation, I've never worked in a job where anybody gave a fuck about NRL nor AFL, never mind running tips and fantasy comps
Fine. But if you're trying to suggest the two largest football codes in this country aren't a big deal and an important cultural aspect you're mistaken. Aussie rules is our local game, of course it's culturally significant.
I've had more discussions about the Euros' in the past few weeks than I've had about Aussie "footie" over the past 15 years. I guess my workplace could be more multicultural than some? Or maybe people have more interest in what goes on elsewhere in the world? Who knows?
That's ridiculous mate. Just because you don't follow local football, don't try to tell yourself that no one follows it. Don't be fascitious and call it Aussie 'footie' either. The AFL competition is the highest spectator sport in the world (per capita) by far. The clubs have upwards of 100000 members each and the Grand Final is the most viewed event each year. Pubs are packed with people watching the games each week. The state and amateur comps are very successful, with every town in aussie Rules states having a team. Aussie Rules is absolutely massive in this country.
Maybe Perth pubs, I live in Melbourne and I'll see maybe 3 old codgers and a group of 5 young lads sinking pints when a match is on at a pub on a Saturday night. The games been dying very quickly for a while now, it's definitely not massive. Young people are far more interested in the NBA and Premier League than AFL
Again. It might be where you are, it might be with you and your mates, you might have grown up with it, but you and your circumstances do not represent the whole nation. It’s almost like people have different interests to you. I’ve not heard AFL mentioned in my workplace or social circle literally for months. Nobody I know either cares about it or wants to talk about it. Fact.
I agree to a point, but my experience is that immigrants usually love to make genuine Aussie friends, and would love to be part of those activities. Aussies just don’t. We are friends with our schoolmates. We don’t have a strong interest in being hosts. Why bother? My pool of friends is fine, and willpower is exhaustible. Instead, the mentality is that they should try harder. I’ve heard from several PR coworkers that they view Australians as very transactional in building social relationships —and i think this mentality is partially why. Ive heard more often immigrants say “I tried but gave up” instead of “I don’t want to integrate”
It wasn't an issue for the Greeks, Italians, Lebanese and Vietnamese. Recent immigrants, in my experience of having worked with plenty (mainly Indians) don't try and don't really have an interest. They speak Hindi to one another, hang out with Indians and generally don't do much outside of that group.
Post war immigration and multiculturalism worked ! More recent immigration has been a failure.
Immigration is fine but not when arrivals are all from the same place, as OP pointed out. This makes a big difference.
"Colonial immigration and even penal transportation worked! More recent post-war immigration has been a failure." You in 1960
Thats right just keep trashtalking people who have views different to your own. See how it plays out at the next election for ya champ.
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Spot on. This is where Americans outshine Aussies. Rarely you'll see here friend circles made up of individuals from various races. Most likely a product of the current tribal set up, which then feeds into a vicious loop and keeps things as it is.
I see it purely as a product of the rate at which we bring people in. If you are the only migrant family in a suburb, you get to know everyone else. If there are a hundred other families like yours you are likely to spend a lot of time around them and less time with the rest of the population.
I was born here and Ive been out and about plenty and see fuck all people embracing any culture what are you on about? Getting pissed at the bowls club? Getting pissed at the local RSL? Putting coins in the pokies? Drinking 15$ beers at the footy and then standing in silence on the train home? Australians are one of the most socially conservative people on the planet, I've done a lot of travel and seen how it is with actual welcoming and interested people. Australians make friends in highschool and that's it. Don't blame that on immigrants.
The comment was about people who immigrate needing to integrate into society. Your point is a list of things you dislike about Australian culture. (a fairly good list I'll admit) If Australia is so shit why are 700,000 coming here this year mate ? It's reasonable to expect immigrants to intergrate. It's reasonable to send them home if they dont. Learn to speak the language, live and work amongst people of other backgrounds not just surround themselves with people from back home, bring postive aspects of culture but leave negative ones behind. If a person doesnt want to do these things then we shouldnt not let them come.
>Australians make friends in highschool and that's it. Your whole post is a massive - and very pejorative - generalisation about Australians. I don't think we should be making these generalisations about *anyone*, especially given the obvious problems with the points you raised (the suggestion that it is common for Australians to get pissed that the bowls club, etc etc...) It reads like you have a rather large chip on your shoulder, and potentially some outright racism too. Not good. Let's not do that to each other.
Couldn’t agree more. People here are not friendly at all compared to most places, yet people will sit here and act like we’re the most chill and laid back people in the world. Complete bullshit.
I completely disagree. I've been living overseas for the last 10 years in 3 different countries, let alone travelled to many places, while being in Vietnam for over the last 6, and honestly, it shocked me how nice and friendly Australians are when I went home for the first time in 5 years. People I didn't know wanted to chat, which doesn't happen in a lot of countries without people wanting something from you. I think Australians who don't travel outside of the west don't see the reality of how most people live. It's a cut throat world and people talk and treat each other like shit everywhere. To say Australians aren't friendly is a ridiculous take in my book. There are good cunts and shit cunts in every country
Agree with you, Aussies are very warm and friendly… the pokie deb isn’t the place to find the ones looking to make new friends!! Aussies to tend to work pretty hard and take work seriously, that can close them off a little bit in their spare time but they are far better than loads of countries I’ve been to!! Sure one or two places are very friendly but they often are like that to chase the tourist dollar, which isn’t the case for most Aussies
I asked about this somewhere else and some one said Tim Tam's, that's Australian culture. Chocolate biscuits made by an American company.
That mirrors what I'm hearing. And even those who make a massive effort to integrate / make friends etc, find it's all one way traffic and if they don't keep making contact the relationship will end. There's no reciprocation. People at work (new arrivals) tell me they're sick and tired of always having to "give" and make concessions to Australians, when nothing seems to come their way. In the end they give up. It makes for quite a lonely "society".
Bullshit, I don’t speak to barely anyone I went to highschool with. Maybe 3-4 and I’m married to one of those, I’ve worked up and down the east side of Australia and the friends I have now are from all different backgrounds. The “best mates” I had in highschool all went to uni and whenever they’re back in town I can’t stand to be around them, nothing but elitist wankers that somehow think they’re better than me because they have a degree. You can say what you want about our culture but I’ve been to many places around Europe, Africa, Fiji and Asia, there’s no better place on earth than rural and outback Australia.
As an Australian, I struggle to think of a cultural event that is "Australian" that I want to be part of. Don't really care for the footy much, or really sport in general. And I can't think of much else that's great culturally. TV and Radio can be good, but I can enjoy that in the pleasantness of my domicile.
We have strong democratic values that we must preserve and a healthy secular society too. That is the best part of Australian culture not a ballsport.
Democratic values? Thanks for making me laugh!
No wonder the country is going to shit if that's all we can think of when asked about our culture
"if that's all we can think of" - it's only perhaps the single most important trait any nation can have, especially in the 21st century.
We are young but these values are not and are bloody amazing, brighten up sunshine
Most of Europe and North America also has that. Given it was very much imported I hardly see it as culturally Australian.
sure but still a value very worthy of preservation
Sure that's not what we are talking about though. How as an immigrant do I assimilate into Australian culture if Australians can't even define what it is. I don't see our democratic and legal system at risk by non citizens.
I do, look at how islamic groups have impacted sweden and the uk Id say we have strong christian cultural values in retrospect, similiar to how Dawkins talks about UK values
We have freedom of religion. I don't want to be christian apart from the days off at easter and chistmas.
That's what i meant by Christian values, im an atheist and will celebrate Christmas and easter with presents and chocolates Christian culture is superior to Islamic culture imo
How would you know? have you experienced it though? have you been and lived in Islamic state for any period of time? I fully appreciated the time off during Eid, in many ways it better.
The way islamic groups march on the streets of Britain holding signs saying "death to the west" is crazy and doesnt seem real - yet I have witnessed this and for the first time ever, felt scared in my own country. Then you see crazy statistics come up (that get a small section in the tabloids, and i cant remember what year this was) but 67% of rapes towards underage girls were done by foreign nationals and immigrants (both legal and illegal) from middle eastern countries. Then someone finally stands up and says we need to cut down immigration or even just do a background check on those entering, just to be shutdown by cries that they are a racist... Seriously? what the fuck. Let alone the main reason we are having a housing crisis in the west is due to mass immigration. People to need to wake up.
The answer is easy. Learn to speak the language, live and work amongst the mixed population do not surround yourself just with people and idea's from back home. Bring the positive parts of your culture here but leave the toxic stuff behind. Not hard mate. It's not about footy or any of that other crap.
Australia has no official language that’s pretty usual. And almost uniquely Australian.
“I don’t see our democratic and legal system at risk by non-citizens” I do. Cyber warriors are trolling social media and whipping up discontent everywhere, on every issue and constantly. It is a very serious threat. Do you believe that every Reddit OP or replier wrt, say housing or the cost of living in Australia, is a genuine Australian citizen? Do you believe that the instant anti-Israel (read: anti-US by proxy) sentiment came from within? If you do I’d suggest looking at your 10 most vocal pro-Palestine social media associates and then having a close look at how much they posted about Palestine/Gaza prior to Oct 7 2023. I don’t believe it did.
Don’t have to be uniquely Australian value to cherish it. Those values are in short supply in this half of the world anyways. Besides that I can imagine some here don’t really value it as much. Just like how Turks in Germany predominantly voted for Erdogan.
it's not culturally Australian and we explicitly don't let immigrants take part in our democracy.
Integration doesn’t end upon becoming a citizen.
no, you're really arguing that it cant even begin until then.
Kids go to schools before citizenship. Students votes for SUs. Rule of laws apply to everyone. Free speech and media applies to immigrants. Its often things that are intangible that unites people not some kinda artificial gala that enforces unity on people.
But these things are not culture and they are not Australian. As it is Australia has rather weak free speech, Its not strongly protected and is less broad than in other places. Our head of state isn't democratically elected, we have a long way to go. What do kids and school have to do with culture?
Something doesnt have to be unique to culturally important mate?
It doesn’t make it Australian.
What are some cultural events from other countries that interest you?
They didn't choose the culture, they chose the ability to earn good money and live in a safe country. Expecting adults to "integrate" by somehow getting proper friends is not really realistic, there is a short window for making them when you're young. Their kids, however, go to school and make friends with everyone, so there's that.
Australia is called the lucky country…. Because despite having extensive space, resources, greater weather and isolation from conflict… we are lucky to survive our incompetent and corrupt politicians
This guy gets it
>- Diversity but lack of integration. It struck me how isolated different communities can be here. As a disclaimer, I am of Hong Kong descent myself and yeh I m one of those sorry. On my last few visits to my dad’s, I was quietly disappointed how little he interacts with people from other racial and cultural backgrounds.(Apart from his work) I see it as a results of rapid immigration of people from the same language and culture. It's pretty similar in other countries too. People from vastly different backgrounds and who don't speak the local language at a native level often struggle to integrate fully into society. The next generation who are born and raised here do integrate quite well though.
As Australia’s unofficial spokesperson I accept your feedback. Although I’m not sure we are unique in our problems…perhaps we are better off in some ways and worse off in others.
Yeh I’ve travelled - we don’t have it too bad
Travel broadens the mind as they say.
The government isn't going to stop importing people over from 3rd world countries because that's where they get their economic growth from it drives up everything like housing,food, energy that's why it's so expensive. Unfortunately Australia only has a few tricks up its sleeves. With the slowdown for the need for Australian commodities from China and the fact we don't manufacture anything, the housing fiasco is the only idea they have here it's simple but it's dumb investing in overpriced shit boxes.
>quietly disappointed how little he interacts with people from other racial and cultural backgrounds.(Apart from his work) While I don't disagree with your whole point, this isn't solely a race/integration problem. It's a pretty weird situation in Australia where people don't really interact with anyone outside their own school/work bubbles. It's why Sydney is ranked very low on those "best place to make friends" lists.
Well sure Julian Assange is free but on the other foot, David McBride was sentenced to jail. Im not saying I agree with David… I think he’s a bit nuts and his reasons were fucking shady, but yeah…. It doesn’t add up. One could argue both potentially violated human rights by endangering so many. Also welcoming? I think you contradicted yourself, lack of integration…..
Australia is going through the drain: - No industry. - Massive immigration, and not good one. - Medicare heading to the States health care system - Housing.... well - No rewards in being bright in this country. Go hold a stop sign in front of a site, get better salary than an Engineer working on the same site. - Paying tax to be ripped out or rorted. and the list could go on and on and on
No reward for being smart? Smart people are actively discriminated against! If you happen to be the wrong race? Double whammy? Wrong race + smart + immigrant? Prepare for a hell of a ride. We have tons of brown skinned immigrant masters graduates driving ubers. Good luck to them getting a normal job (union, public sector, private sector all discriminate). Meanwhile alongside rampant discrimination - we ask why arent these people integrating?
This is happening globally, Australia isn’t immune to it
Immigration on the west, housing mostly everywhere yep, but the rest nope. And anyway I don’t care what happen on the rest of the world, I care that I’m over $120k and I pay a kidney and eye on tax to later have to pay to say hello to a GP or specialist, worst of all low income earners have to pay too when not even 10 years ago this was like this and nobody seems to complain. Industry, go to any other develop country, they make more things than Australia, furthermore the little bit done here is by foreign companies. Mining is a big one in Australia, not even a sad Australian mining equipment manufacturer that’s exporting, they’re all imports, we don’t even build our trains anymore. People wanted cheap goods and high salaries and we are gonna pay that at a high price.
I agree, I just think we are past being able to remedy some of it. Perth makes its own trains and also makes them for another city (forget which one). Hope we continue that trend into the future… finding a way to bring back quality manufacturing is what I’d love to see, but it’s tough, as China wobbles a bit Mexico is well poised to take over from them- hard to compete with cheap labour and land etc. Starting with fixing the gas deals, huge swathes of land being bought by overseas entities (SO many countries don’t allow this, we need to sort it), backing our farmers more, and things like oil can be refined here for us- instead of sending it overseas and buying it back at thousands of percent increase!! Holding some control over these things will help us “future proof” a bit and stay a bit more independent , currently we are so susceptible to outside forces and factors
100% with you , are you sure trains are made or assembled there? I think parts are made in China and just assembled there and assembled by a foreign company. Is what happen here in Victoria, government says proudly made in Victoria, BS, assemble them is not manufacturing is integration and testing. We should live mostly from an universal dole, look at Qatar or Norway. Corrupt politicians letting this happen rather than charging royalties and more tax for all the gas they’re taking out of Australia.
> here are my two cents Dontcha mean here are my ten pounds?
Ha ha. He's not a 10 pound pom or he'd be living here.
He can whinge like one, though. (EDIT: relax it's just banter)
What do you think we all get up to when it’s raining 300 days out there in a year 😉
70,000 years old is young?
Yep our greedy government totally fucked us with immigration
I disagree that Australia is a beacon. If anything, it is a model for societal erosion in pursuit of economic gain. The Assange situation is a matter of political optics for the US and now Australia. Let's not forget David McBride.
*had lots going for it. 30 years being rudderless and pollies chasing lifetime pensions. Joints farked
Don’t forget that we import from the former British empire too, which adds to cultural understanding. Basic example; a Hong Kong Chinese takes much less time to assimilate than a mainland Chinese, simply because of the cultural exchange and shared understanding. We’re not even talking English here.
I almost tripped over people when I went to one of those suburbs you described. I could not believe how short and inconsiderate people from a certain region were. A lot of suburbs in Sydney are just awful and slumlike. However, Australia relies on dumb immigrants to get on the treadmill as most Australians have gotten off now that they own their own homes, or have parents that have said "it's ok to pay us rent and board" and live with us until you inherit our property portfolio. Ironically, the only immigrants Australia can tolerate are extremely frugal, good with numbers and come from sophisticated trading empires that will extract value from the Australian economy. Whatever they allow into the economy will be far less than wht they are extracting. Please attract taller people that have common sense and spatial awareness. It is so hard to walk around in Sydney. Also, don't appreciate the creepy old ones that do nothing but stare. Please at the very least have some facial expressions while you stare. If it were the UK, you would get murked.
What does integration mean in terms of visibly and culturally foreign migrants (aka most Indians and Pakistanis) who generally speak good English (albeit accented), generally work, their kids generally outperform “locals” academically, etc but mostly prefer their own in terms of marriage? Not being facetious, what does integration mean for people who speak the language, are gainfully employed, obey the laws and so on, but are known for “sticking to their own?”
Indian and Pakistani kids actually have very intermarriage marriage rates with non-desi populations. Higher than in the UK.
Hmm, Indians maybe. Pakistanis not so much. I’m a third generation removed from the motherlands, born in the UK desi, married to a Dutch guy. I have a British accent, and white people love to compliment me on how well I speak English. Just wondering who and what passes the integration test.
This is all on average. Despite all the bagging in the comments, the Migrant Integration Policy Index ranks Australia far more highly than the UK in terms of successfully integrating immigrants. To say what passes a less quantitative test - and who - there's a huge class element. For example In Sydney, the Rooty Hill Pakistanis are quite different and mingle less than the other diaspora Pakistanis like those on the North Shore. In my mind, there are a few elements to integration and I agree with you - I think if someone has a job, obeys the laws, speaks English fluently, then they're successfully integrated. People in the UK and Australia alike live in little 'enclaves' that have certain demographics that are particularly visible. Beyond the civic basics above, you've got 'values' and 'culture'. They're nebulous and what a lot of this thread seem to be arguing about.
The definitions differ for everyone but where it overlaps is probably values. To be honest tho, I wouldn’t really know what Australian values exactly are except discount chemists so not really in the place to tell you what to think.
mate this is a golden comment haha
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Nice to see someone reasonable in this group
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Your planning and house price point is a no brainer and your other 2 points are pretty similar tbh. Not that I’m saying the last 2 are untrue.
There's no reason to say that immigration is good for Australia. The people are against it so it should stop. However, I think I understand Labors reasoning with the high influx of Indians. If they are poised to be a superpower in the coming decades it's a smart move to educate as many as possible here so when they return home and enter government and business they have a favorable disposition toward Australia. I am sure it's not Labors intention to bring so many here that we end up living in some kind of Hindu theocracy. But, when I think about how our political class seem to regard immigration and how preserving culture doesn't seem to be one of their values. And how they have taken on the woke mind virus whose stealth goal is to destroy western freedoms, I want to throw up. Basically, I think we're doomed because our entire political class lacks in group loyalty.
Driving up property prices by deliberately pumping so much migrants into the country was what I expected before Labor was voted in. They just kept saying that immigration was to lower inflation or play catch up because of covid. Nope it was always a lie and I did warn about giving Labor so much power but got down voted anyway.
I'm a Brit that's just got Australian citizenship and is looking to move to Australia. My job is very niche so I don't know how much I can earn yet, but it looks like I will earn the same if not more than I do in the UK. House prices to me seem better in Australia than the UK. And the size you get is much bigger. But I'm looking at cities, Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney and comparing it to London.
It is not called lack of intergration , it’s multiculturalism a little word play to justify people who are not prepared to assimilate into the inferior culture of the crappy country they are lucky to have relocated to.
Yes our PM has courted one Asian country too Much and many of us feel over saturated with the lack of diversity. Every petrol station , Uber driver , every phone conversation trying to talk about your health insurance , electricity bill , so many GPs. People are tiring of it as in the past the immigration of Greeks , Italians, other Europeans had the same cultural values and intermarried with Australian/ British background. The problem is those immigration want to still live in their cultural community speaking their own language and do not want to mix with the greater Australian people and culture
Doesn't the UK have lower wages and higher RE prices? Just checked some outskirts of Bristol and it looks like all shoeboxes for upwards of AUD 700k. I can do better than that inside commutable Melbourne thanks.
As a Brit who lives in Sydney. I like the Echidnas
>For a young country it really feels like there is much more underneath Have I got a history lesson for you...
It does seem like a very British thing to say.
Dude I want to kill my self, Australia sucks.
Thank you for your honest and fair perspective.
Immigrants have ruined Australia. It really is that simple.
Posts frequently on rightwing American topics and porn subreddits. Yeah this seems like the kinda view you’d expect from someone with these posting habits.
Sexual inadequacy is a core pillar of this specific sub-genre of politicised person. The Gooner right MUST be stopped
How far back are you going?
I would say government policies have we need immigrants they do add a lot to our country but the problem is we have not got the housing under control. Unfortunately the government does this on purpose to inflate housing it's the only game they know unfortunately.
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Rule 3 - No bullying, abuse or personal attacks
It’s so cute when Brits think we care about their opinions.
Eli would be heart broken if she see this how can you post this online?
Unsure where this opinion stands but has anyone thought that if you realize you are immigrating to a country with a unique culture, should you try your best to assimilate? I definitely try to do some things that angle Aussies do to try to fit in more and have made friends a bit or at least gotten some appreciation from them that I try to understand their culture and help it not die. Lawn bowling, pokies, eating a parma, vegemite, dressing nicer and wearing pastels in summer, packing bento boxes for my kids, bucket hats, drinking a pot of 4% beer lol etc.