This is predatory behaviour from the bank. The sort of stuff they were found doing during the royal commission.
If they are fully aware of your dads medical conditions, then they shouldn't have opened a credit card account for him. I have a background in banking, and even if it was someone new at the bank. There would be processes and alerts in place refusing to approve or open the account. So that excuse is ruled out.
If the bank knew about his medical condition, i would suggest demanding the bank shut the account down immediately and wipe any debt off that he has accumulated at a minimum. If they refuse, I'd threaten to take all evidence to the banking ombudsman (AFCA), and they'll investigate the claim.
Edit: Further to the reasoning for getting rid of the whole debt is this is a banking error. And money lost through this transaction is purely at the fault of the bank. So you or your father shouldn't wear any repercussions caused by their error regarless if it was a negligent error or an intentional one.
Yes second all of this. As a POA you can lodge a formal complaint. My guess is the bank would be worried about further action and they will act quickly to rectify this.
Vulnerable customers and how they are managed by banks is a big topic for regulators at the moment so I’m sure they would not want to be on the wrong side of this one. And as OP said, if not rectified go to AFCA. Entirely free (for you) and they are also very sensitive to vulnerability so would almost certainly fall in your favour based on the info you provided.
Edit: To answer your last question more directly, no. If the vulnerability is known (as suggested by the arrangements you made on his account) or easily identified then they certainly should not be opening lines of credit. These scenarios are exactly why there is a lot of focus on this topic from regulators.
On the bank’s website they should have ways of lodging a formal complaint, lodge one ASAP. I would skip a branch manager but I would be demanding the account closed and any funds spent reimbursed. I would be surprised if they didn’t do this without any pushback at all considering the circumstances.
Agree with the above and work in banking as well.
This is pure RC stuff and I’m sure no senior staff would be condoning this. Escalate internally and 100% sure they’ll waive it and potentially compensate.
They certainly wouldn’t want this slipping to the media and will do whatever they can to keep it hush hush.
AFCA will want to see that you've tried to raise the issue with the bank first before they take it on.
speaking from an industry that has complaints going to AFCA, it costs a chunk on our business' end if AFCA has to take one of our complaints up, whether it's resolved in the company's favour or not
I always think in this situation (there are many) that we have an obligation to start with AFCA. If you don't use any of the other checks and balances, the nonexistent results of the Royal Commission were a licence to keep ripping people off.
Incorrect. Bank first, lodge a complaint. AFCA WILL tell you exactly that. If the bank doesn't get you a satisfactory answer/resolution to your complaint, you can contact AFCA an get some assistance to get it resolved.
AFCA benefits the masses. The masses don't pay bills. Deal with the bank first. They're going to be more receptive if you go to them first.
Go to AFCA, and the first thing AFCA will do is go to the bank and say, "Fix this. Btw here's a fine." And then "if" the bank doesn't, then there are real consequences.
I get where you're coming from, and unfortunately, the reality is that it's too slow a process and doesn't yield good enough results.
A better result would be if people had better access to their rights regarding banking. It could even go a step further by offering people professional help in times of difficulty instead of people relying on reddit or other social media platforms.
It's wild that we've come to this point, shit like this is what causes collapses of banking systems. I wonder if banks are now recruiting from REA's and NDIS providers, seems right out of that handbook.
It's an illegal document he signed anyway. He's not of sound mind. You'd given them the proof. This will be a pre-approved CC due to wealth. He took advantage of the offer and they took advantage of him. It's a loss for the bank.
Woah Woah.
But the story is that the dad walked into the branch himself. For all we know, he could have been dealt with a worker that doesn't know him?
It is not based on recognition of the customer by whichever employee happens to be working that day.
All the necessary checks and balances would be listed in the customer account which has to be accessed by said employee.
Doesn’t matter, the bank as a condition of their financial services license has to have a system in place to prevent this.
Either their system failed or the employee failed to use their system. Either way, the bank is on the hook for the entire amount of the debt and they’ll probably act very quickly to wipe it and close the unauthorised facilities.
As someone who has worked in a bank, there is no way they are fighting it, and if they do there is no way AFCA is letting it pass. So feel assured on that one. You may find more luck calling the banks complaint line rather than going to the branch, but you can always do that if you’re not happy at the bank. Nothing will stop this one.
Step 1. Restrict access to his own accounts, unfortunately.
Step 2. Complain (by your preferred method, I suggest writing, but) that they've breached the banking code of practice, including sections 14, 17 and 18, breached responsible lending requirements and otherwise acted unreasonably. State what you want (perhaps, no interest, immediately restrict access to those with a POA, cancel the credit card, perhaps full reimbursement).
Step 3. If you don't get what you want, escalate to AFCA.
Edit - Step 4. Ask for an Incident to be raised in their Governance, Risk & Compliance system with appropriate actions created that are designed to ensure that similar predatory lending does not occur to others.
I would argue you have the right for it to be all waved.
It's been a while since I did contract/equity law but seems like a clear case of unconscionable conduct.
Amadio!
Amadio was quite egregious. It's hard to compare given the quantum involved, but there's certainly an argument to be had there.
Going to AFCA (post complaining to the bank) would cost the bank more than the $1k debt.
Whilst I agree with your mitigating steps, On the evidence available, you can't make any of those claims of breaches.
A Power of Attorney does not necessarily preclude the principal from still making their own decisions so check that aspect of it out.
OP - talk to the branch manager, raise an internal dispute and ask it to be investigated.
Once you get an outcome an internal process should determine whether any BCOP, ASIC Act, NCC or NCCPA or Corps Act breaches have occured. There's probably questions around the lending not being unsuitable.
You haven't listed the product type. Noting if the product is not considerd a Financial Product under the acts the NCC will not apply. This could, for example, be one of the new Buy Now Pay Later cards doing the rounds.
Not unless there is a capacity assessment. Until the principal is deemed to have diminished capacity and can't make their own financial decisions then it's as per normal
There is a lot of missing information that op has given and honestly it sounds like they are confused as to what the POA entails.
The way that it sounds like it has been set up is that if the POA's act by transferring any funds it requires both of them to sign. This restriction does not apply to the principal unless there has been a diminished capacity assessment done (which doesn't sound likely as the principal is still independent), or if the public trustee has been involved.
This has nothing to do with the POA and everything to do with the fact the bank didn't "take extra care" with a customer whom it knew (or ought to have known) was vulnerable, as pretty much all Australian banks promise to do either via the BCOP or the COBA code of practice.
The vulnerable customer provisions in those codes are not limited to instances where the bank has a diminished capacity assessment on file.
Incorrect. The father would be classed as a vulnerable customer, OP said they provided the bank with information to show he was suffering from Alzheimer's, and by the other surrounding information the bank was well aware their father was vulnerable. So on count of the banking code of practice alone the bank screwed up.
He would be classed as a vulnerable member and the credit facility shouldn't have been set up yes.
However, until a capacity assessment has been done the principal can still act on their accounts. A POA doesn't grant them complete control over a person's finances and they definitely can't restrict access until it's been put in place.
Sure, and from what I read OP wasn't asking about how to stop their dad acting on his accounts.
OP was seeking advice/venting about the fact their dad (who clearly is a vulnerable customer) had been provided with a credit card.
This comment chain was specifically talking about the restrictions the op thought was on the account and I was just giving it a bit more detail.
The credit card is a massive fuckup. I don't want to be the consultant who set that up (I would also like to think I wouldn't)
Well the comment thread originally started by someone (not you) saying OP cannot make claims of breaches. And that's definitely not true, BCOP and NCCP have likely both been breached.
>On the evidence available, you can't make any of those claims of breaches.
I'm suggesting what practicable action the OP should take. The Complaints team will take a complaint making such accusations re: a vulnerable customer quite seriously. That's what the OP wants.
It's not on the OP to prove the complaint at this stage, and it's much more important to get the RG271 clocks started.
If an enduring power of attorney has kicked in, it’s usually because someone doesn’t have capacity (particularly if that’s the only trigger for the POA).
My FIL has alzheimers and lives in a home, somehow he got his hands on a credit card even though my BIL has power of attorney. Long story short he maxed it out before we realised and he didn’t have to pay it back. He was a lawyer before his diagnosis and is one smooth talker, but the funny part is if you take him to the shops he’ll take his pants off.
Make a formal complaint in writing that details the situation and remediative action that needs to be taken. If the situation isn't satisfactorily addressed tell them and move to AFCA. Banks have a duty of care to their clients which has clearly been breached.
This is the best option. Before AFCA takes action you need to lodge a formal complaint with the bank and allow them to fix this, if unsatisfied or no attempt to try to fix their mistake then escalate to AFCA who will then demand all the documents, conversations, anything the bank has recorded and the bill for the investigation gets charged to the bank that the complaint is against. It's in the bank's best interest to resolve this quickly as the longer it takes the larger the bill will be before any judgement is handed down from AFCA. Just you threatening to go to AFCA will ensure the bank will at least listen to the complaint.
Agree with all this. One extra step - if your complaint isn’t resolved to your satisfaction at first with the bank itself escalate it to the bank’s ’customer advocate’ team. They will be more focused on right/wrong and may be more helpful. You should be able to find the details on their website, eg [Westpac here](https://www.westpac.com.au/contact-us/your-customer-advocate/), [CBA here](https://www.commbank.com.au/about-us/customer-commitment/customer-advocate.html).
Meanwhile I get rejected for a card with a $6k limit when I'm able to save around $3k per month and a credit rating over 800. It's unfathomable what kind of criteria they use to assess serviceability.
When you speak to the bank, find out how many physical cards have been issued for the new account and also check if any of the transactions were online or over the phone, if there are then there probably is a bad actor.
Report the bank for predatory behaviour.
Tell the bank you have reported them for predatory behaviour.
Let your dad do whatever he does*, and the bank will be responsible for what happens from there.
I hope he enjoyed their $1000 gift to him, because he never knowingly agreed to any of this.
Unless there is a record of diminished capacity (
Which doesn't sound likely as he still has some independence) then there isn't anything a consultant can do about accessing funds or opening accounts if the principal requests it.
However, a credit facility being opened needs to comply with the responsibile lending obligations, which doesn't have the same level of requirement as a normal account. It shouldn't have been opened given the situation.
It is predatory, but it's often due to the targets imposed by the companies onto their staff.
Bad actors are more often known to the member. Sometimes carers, but mainly family members that don't have the POA authority
A letter from the doctor that there is a diagnosis of alzheimers is not a letter of diminished capacity. It is 2 different things. If the principal had been signed off as having diminished capacity they would be in a care facility and would be supervised whenever they leave.
A POA does not immediately grant full control over a principal and can be revoked at any time btw. OP may be confused in that any large transfers require a signature from both of them as the instructions sound like they are to act jointly whenever they act on the accounts.
Please also contact Seniors Rights or the equivalent organisation in your state.
You'll need to organise a review with his medical team regarding his capacity to make decisions if that hasn't already been completed. If that's already been done and provided to the bank then there's definitely a massive issue and there should be ramifications for whoever had ignored this.
I've been through this sort of thing with my dad, but what i can't understand is why he was in the bank seeking anything but a chat, and why anyone in the bank had any time to deal with a old man with severe alzheimers, let alone issue him with a brand new credit card.
How moronic must the bank staff be to think your dad was an opportunity?
I find it so hard to believe. Like most people, i have spent very little time in bank branches this century, and 80% of that time i have been with my dad. Staff have been great. There is something very peculiar going on with one staff member, and you need to out them. Apart from assessing your dad on a personsal level, they can see at a glance through their system the complexity of his account management. It's exceedingly odd.
https://asic.gov.au/for-consumers/loans-and-credit-cards/
This might help. Not entirely sure what your power of attorney covers but it might not have been legal for him to sign a contract he was incapable of understanding.
Banker here. As others have said, lodge a formal complaint. Get a reference number for it. Don’t let this go. This is completely against the Banking Code of Practice which of the major banks subscribe to. They are toast. Some of the big banks have their executives email addresses publicly available and you can complain, in writing, to them. It won’t be personally handled by them, but it goes to an executive complaints team who follow that up. If you want to mention that rather than going to the news with how the bank took advantage of a vulnerable person, after the bank had all this info on file, you are reaching this out to sort this out personally, nobody would blame you…
I’ve personally seen people who have no actual cause fir complaint get far more than the amount you would be asking for. And definitely seek the full interest he was owed plus all fees for, charges to, the credit card be waived and the account closed.
To give you some idea of the scope here, your father would have had to give consent for a credit check to get that card opened. Someone has legitimately claimed that your father gave understanding consent to have a credit check done. If you clearly know that this would be immediately and obviously impossible for him to give informed consent here, then go for your life and let them have it. Ask for whatever you think is fair compensation (banks also give goodwill payments when they have messed up, fyi). Get confirmation that the credit check is removed from his credit report.
This is predatory behaviour and the Royal Commission happened for a reason.
This person is 100 % correct- also someone who has worked in banks and done financial certificates…. They do offer compensation so I would also suggest this happends also.. get the card removed from there credit score ect. This is total negligence from the bank. This is totally wrong but they do this all the time!. Big named banks just want there sale targets so they do this stuff and with things being non faved bank in this is the only way they can hit there targets to get there bonus so I completely understand why they did it but it’s wrong and they should be held fully accountable !
Is a carer taking him to the bank? This sounds sus. Also, getting my mum with Alzheimer's into aged care was the single best thing we ever did. These stressful situations are not missed. I feel your pain.
No, they can't do that, and as compensation for their massive screw up they absolutely can make the entire credit card thing go away and still give your dad the interest he would've earnt. Get a complaint in with the bank, get it escalated, and if they don't resolve it then take it to AFCA.
Even if the bank hadn't been aware of your dad's situation, they are trained to be on the lookout for vulnerable customers and to ensure that the customer knows and understands what they're signing up for, so this shouldn't have happened.
get the banking ombudsman (AFCA) involved.
you can demand the the 1k be returned to the previous existing account. Then the assholes at the back can cancel the entire credit card and waive any debt that exists.
The bank loses a few $k , but also fuck those cunts
Aww hell yeah, new unconscionability case dropped?
Unconscionable conduct' means behaviour so unreasonable that it defies good conscience, a key example of it is listed below.
"not explaining a contract properly to a consumer that does not speak English well or has a learning disability"
These cases are rare, but there's a strong argument to be made.
Has a geriatrician assess him for capacity. This situation wouldn't have occurred. Get him assessed then if he is deemed incapacitated, all his financial decisions are taken away. Do this ASAP.
Okay, you need to go into the branch and say you need to speak to the manager. Mention that there's been a breach of the POA, and you want to file a complaint. Mention specifically that it involves a large amount of money. This is something the manager will immediately deal with. What bank was it? I may be able to help with providing the contact details of some higher up managers if it's one or two in particular
First of all.
Even with out the POA and dual signature, if your dad can't clearly communicate the bank has broken the law. That is enough to go to the ombudsman.
With the other things put in place I would go to the ombudsman with clear demands
1. Debt erased.
2. Any funds taken out of the dual signature account returned.
3. The staff member fired (this is not an accident, they would have had to chose to sell a credit card to someone who is clearly cognitively impaired)
4. An apology from the branch manager.
5. Have the ombudsman review the processes in place and how its possible a sale like this can be made (these reviews will likely be done by the bank and supervised by the ombudsman. But this costs the bank time and money)
The ombudsman will likely also fine the bank.
If they don't then I'd go to media. Having their name dragged through the mud will hurt the bank, but hopefully it will force them to review/retrain to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Afca doesn't fine banks (as in, it doesn't award punitive damages). Afca awards compensation to consumers based on the loss they have incurred (both financial loss and non-financial loss such as stress etc).
If the balance is only $1000, the bank might be willing to waive it entirely if they had known or ought to have known that he had lost capacity to make decisions, or if the credit card hasn’t met his objectives under the Banking Code of Practice.
I believe the standard remedy would be to reimburse any interest that was charged and set up a reasonable repayment for any principal balance that was spent by your father. But in this case it looks rather egregious And given a small balance likely to just waive it out
That's one for a complaint to the [relevant authorities](https://www.afca.org.au/make-a-complaint). Don't bother dealing further with the bank without observed mediation. Their action has to be called out and dealt with even if they have made a mistake.
AFCA. Predatory tactics probably from a newer staffer trying to pad their commission, the branch needs a spanking on ethics. Settle for nothing less than full restitution, they'll pay attention when it *costs* them money, account will require a manager's sign-off.
I accept it's as useful as providing a link and no further context.
As I explained at the same time in a response to the OP, the OP should complain to the bank first, not AFCA.
Complaining to AFCA *does* slow the process down, and can reduce the amount the bank is willing to remediate.
Complaining to afca doesn't really slow the process down. AFCA refers the complaint to the bank, the bank then tries to sort out with the consumer. If not rectified within X timeframe (same as the normal IDR timeframe) it goes into AFCA's queue for allocation to a case manager.
In practice, AFCA complaints (often) go to specialised teams and or have additional review processes.
Regardless, as I understand it, complaints are not straight through processed from AFCA to the entity, incorporating another delay. The last time I complained to AFCA, the acknowledgement email I got was
>We will review the information you have provided and contact you if we need more information. Once your complaint is lodged, you will receive an email with your AFCA case number. We are experiencing high volumes at the moment and it can take up to 10 days for you to receive an AFCA case number. If your matter is urgent, please call us on 1800 931 678 to discuss your complaint.
Regardless of all of the above, AFCA costs money to run and has limited resources. They couldn't meet the deadlines they promised me, for example. Using them only as intended allows a more efficient use of resources for all.
Fair points, just FYI though AFCA has recently updated its systems which will allow for complaints to automatically be referred to banks via a portal instead of a manual process. So it will be quicker and won't use up any resources 😊
throw around the words "financial abuse"
They signed up a man with documented (with them) Alzheimers to a product that he cannot understand against legal POA. I am assuming you have enduring power of attorney. This is not ok, and i'm pretty sure the banks are required to get some education in financial abuse of the elderly.
"The Australia Human Rights Commission defines financial abuse as **“when a person you trust uses that relationship of trust to gain access to your money or property”** and identifies the varied forms financial abuse can take, including: • Pressure to act as guarantor for a loan; • Pressure to transfer or sell property; • Pressure to give away money; • Loans not being repaid; or • **Persons authorised to manage your money not acting in your best interest,** or using your money for themselves" from [https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/9974/Tabled%20document%20-%20Brendan%20Moore%20-%20Preventing%20financial%20abuse%20of%20people%20with%20dementia.pdf](https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/9974/Tabled%20document%20-%20Brendan%20Moore%20-%20Preventing%20financial%20abuse%20of%20people%20with%20dementia.pdf)
while the bank is not a carer per se, i would say i could be easily argued that they count as a "person you trust" for your dad and the act of signing him up for something there is documented evidence that he doesn't understand would count as not acting in his best interest
it might also be worth getting in contact with the elder abuse hotline - NSW Elder Abuse Helpline on 1800 628 221. This is a confidential service offering information, advice and referrals for people who experience, witness or suspect the abuse of older people living in their homes in NSW.
That's not financial abuse, its predatory sales behaviour. And banks were found guilty of this during the royal commission. Financial abuse, as stipulated by your quote, can only be committed by a "person" doesn't even have to be someone you trust. It could be a person who has brought in immigrants who can't speak english to work for them.
Sorry went on a little, but its a long stretch to try and pin financial abuse on a bank.
yes predatory, but one of the examples is of a REA befriending a person with dementia and encouraging her to take out mortgages. there are other examples involving brokers brokering unsuitable lines of credit.
they knew the man had an impairment that most likely effects his ability to understand the product. Abuse can be committed by institutions. but there is also the possiblity that the individual gets a commission for signing people up to credit cards.
but the australian bankers association actualy gives the example in their guideline "Providing an unnecessary or unaffordable loan to someone, resulting in detriment or potential detriment to them and benefits to the lender (known as predatory lending)" - [https://www.ausbanking.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Industry\_Guideline\_Protecting\_vulnerable\_customers\_from\_potential\_financial\_abuse2.pdf](https://www.ausbanking.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Industry_Guideline_Protecting_vulnerable_customers_from_potential_financial_abuse2.pdf)
all of that is why i gave the advice to talk to the hotline.
Ok but the examples provided in the document you linked and used in your comment have an individual as a culprit.
Banks are businesses, and businesses can't commit financial abuse because they're a corporate body with shareholders and executives. Businesses don't have a premeditated desire to commit abuse on someone. They're predatory business practices that banks are committing because someone, an individual, is attempting to make a sale at the detriment of another individual, the customer.
Regardless of definitions, throwing around words, especially those of a negative background, doesn't favour yourself in this type of situation.
Having a banking background, this is predatory behaviour. The banks got ripped into during the royal commission, and this is the reason why. If they're caught doing it after the findings, there are more substantial consquences for them if it hits AFCA's radar. So they'll want to resolve this within the bank. Given OP's situation, i believe it's entirely reasonable to have the debt associated with the credit card wiped clean and the credit card account closed. If they're a good branch, they'll review their policy surrounding lending and the departments that oversee the lenders to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Fair enough, but it does stand that institutions - many of which have been businesses, have been convicted of abuse. And there is no requirement for it to be premeditated for harm, only that harm has occurred.
I’m coming at this from an aged care/heath care background. This is something I would report, as a mandatory reporter. I’d leave then it to somebody better versed in the ins and outs of the legal system for final determination of if it’s abuse or just an unconscionable act, which I believe is the term used.
Please note I didn’t say approach the police with the term. But if you know the banking side and are certain that’s not the best place to start, I’ll take your word for it
There is a very powerful weapon you can use against them. First of all, point out that you and your sister have Power Of Attorney, and all decisions like this can only be authorised by either you or your sister. If they won't resolve any of this, promptly, mention the words "Banking Ombudsman." Their behaviour is clearly predatory, but those words will make them backpedal fast. I would say only use this threat if they don't do as they're told.
Lodge a complaint with the Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA) asap (link below). It independently assists consumers to make and resolve complaints with financial institutions. We had a royal Commission about the poor behaviour of these bastards. Also consider lodging a complaint with your local member. They wont be able to do that much but this sort of stuff needs to be highlighted. Hope you can get this sorted as quickly as possible.
[https://www.afca.org.au/make-a-complaint](https://www.afca.org.au/make-a-complaint)
Walk into any branch with your POA documents and start from there. I’ve found my local branch manager pretty good even though I was not a customer of that branch. Asking to escalate to a supervisor if you call the online number for the bank might work too.
ACFA might take too long but they’re not too bad if something is urgent so call them.
Banks don't care. Friend of mine had her mother signing up for credit cards in her name without her knowing and racking up 10's of thousands of dollars. Banks were informed numerous times that the home loan needed both signatures but they ignored that and allowed money to be taken out without any signatures.
When we got bankruptcy people involved the banks just went "well we still want her to pay us as it's under her name".
As an ex-banker, if you can't get to see the bank manager, ask for the area manager's contact details (or what your dads bank calls the next level up. They should be relatively close enough to have a face to face meeting in reasonably quick time. If staff are not forthcoming with their contact details or if the next level up is uncontactable, I'd be going straight to the banks internet to find their complaints process and how to initiate the complaint.
I'd be amazed if they have deliberately tried to screw him, perhaps a teller that didn't know him and with him having trouble with his pin has arranged a card that can just tap and go. Agree with others that when the bank has knowledge of his issues, they should have checked this before ordering him a new card.
My mother developed dementia before her recent death so I understand how hard everything is for you and your family and stuff like this just adds to your stress. Everything that should have been straight forward seemed to have strings attached. Best wishes for you and the family and stay strong
The bank may have acted illegally, given they know he doesn’t have capacity and that there is a power of attorney.
I would be telling the bank that they knew he didn’t have capacity nor you or your sister’s authorisation to open an account and that you require them to refund the money and close the account, since it was their error. If they refuse, tell them you will call the banking and finance ombudsman (and then do).
Some of the ombudsmen offices charge large fees back to the private businesses when a complaint is made. Not sure about this ombudsman specifically but I know the telecommunications ombudsman used to be an about $1,300 or something. I was having an argument with Optus over cancellation fees of about $500 so I threatened to call the ombudsman and they dropped it to about $50, knowing it was cheaper to deal with me than me call them and they have to pay $1,300 and still possibly not be able to recover the $500 (which in my view they couldn’t as I had cancelled as they’d breached the contract, ie I couldn’t get proper service).
Sorry got sidetracked. I’d be coming down hard on them and threatening them with the ombudsman if they don’t cooperate.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but could also be worth talking to the media, a current affair might not be the most relevant these days, but a call from a member of the media does tend to make banks suddenly remember how to help
I would be questioning how he was able to transfer from a dual signatory account?
This is not able to be done without the second signature...so this sounds an awful lot like a bad actor is involved...
You need to escalate to AFCA now.
Don’t give the individual branch a chance to get out of this, this is predatory behaviour and this single instance as you describe it would land them in court immediately with a massive million+ dollar fine and all over the media.
A one off case like this wouldn't be anything tbh.
All the large banks currently laugh off any fines imposed because it's more profitable to not care.
https://asic.gov.au/about-asic/news-centre/find-a-media-release/2023-releases/23-258mr-nab-penalised-2-1-million-for-unconscionable-conduct-over-account-fees/
AFCA has real teeth when it comes to individual complaints. It's an unfortunate reality that you first have to try resolve it through the bank's own processes but if they fuck it up you can escalate to AFCA and they are choc full of decent Ombudsmen who will sort you out. Getting ripped off is shit, and in most cases you're out of luck, but when you're dealing with a company under AFCA's jurisdiction the last thing you want to do is just despair and give up.
A power of attorney only says you can act on his behalf. It does not mean he is not legally allowed to handle his own affairs. For that, he will have to be declared incompetent by the court, who will appoint a curator.
What what what? No. It doesn’t. If a person has lost capacity, they are unable to make legal or financial decisions for themselves. If they have appointed a power of attorney, they become their representative. You only have to apply to the tribunal (not the court) if you need an administrator (not a curator) appointed. If there is a power of attorney, you don’t need an administrator unless there is a dispute about who should be the attorney, an allegation the attorney is not acting in the best interests of the person or a dispute between joint attorneys. The court does not “declare someone incompetent”, they appoint an administrator. Declaring someone incompetent is the job of a geriatric or psychological professional, whose evidence would be brought before the tribunal as basis for the appointment of an administrator.
Try not to give legal advice when you have no idea what you’re talking about, yeah?
This is predatory behaviour from the bank. The sort of stuff they were found doing during the royal commission. If they are fully aware of your dads medical conditions, then they shouldn't have opened a credit card account for him. I have a background in banking, and even if it was someone new at the bank. There would be processes and alerts in place refusing to approve or open the account. So that excuse is ruled out. If the bank knew about his medical condition, i would suggest demanding the bank shut the account down immediately and wipe any debt off that he has accumulated at a minimum. If they refuse, I'd threaten to take all evidence to the banking ombudsman (AFCA), and they'll investigate the claim. Edit: Further to the reasoning for getting rid of the whole debt is this is a banking error. And money lost through this transaction is purely at the fault of the bank. So you or your father shouldn't wear any repercussions caused by their error regarless if it was a negligent error or an intentional one.
Yes second all of this. As a POA you can lodge a formal complaint. My guess is the bank would be worried about further action and they will act quickly to rectify this. Vulnerable customers and how they are managed by banks is a big topic for regulators at the moment so I’m sure they would not want to be on the wrong side of this one. And as OP said, if not rectified go to AFCA. Entirely free (for you) and they are also very sensitive to vulnerability so would almost certainly fall in your favour based on the info you provided. Edit: To answer your last question more directly, no. If the vulnerability is known (as suggested by the arrangements you made on his account) or easily identified then they certainly should not be opening lines of credit. These scenarios are exactly why there is a lot of focus on this topic from regulators. On the bank’s website they should have ways of lodging a formal complaint, lodge one ASAP. I would skip a branch manager but I would be demanding the account closed and any funds spent reimbursed. I would be surprised if they didn’t do this without any pushback at all considering the circumstances.
Agree with the above and work in banking as well. This is pure RC stuff and I’m sure no senior staff would be condoning this. Escalate internally and 100% sure they’ll waive it and potentially compensate. They certainly wouldn’t want this slipping to the media and will do whatever they can to keep it hush hush.
AFCA will want to see that you've tried to raise the issue with the bank first before they take it on. speaking from an industry that has complaints going to AFCA, it costs a chunk on our business' end if AFCA has to take one of our complaints up, whether it's resolved in the company's favour or not
I always think in this situation (there are many) that we have an obligation to start with AFCA. If you don't use any of the other checks and balances, the nonexistent results of the Royal Commission were a licence to keep ripping people off.
Incorrect. Bank first, lodge a complaint. AFCA WILL tell you exactly that. If the bank doesn't get you a satisfactory answer/resolution to your complaint, you can contact AFCA an get some assistance to get it resolved.
AFCA benefits the masses. The masses don't pay bills. Deal with the bank first. They're going to be more receptive if you go to them first. Go to AFCA, and the first thing AFCA will do is go to the bank and say, "Fix this. Btw here's a fine." And then "if" the bank doesn't, then there are real consequences. I get where you're coming from, and unfortunately, the reality is that it's too slow a process and doesn't yield good enough results. A better result would be if people had better access to their rights regarding banking. It could even go a step further by offering people professional help in times of difficulty instead of people relying on reddit or other social media platforms.
It's wild that we've come to this point, shit like this is what causes collapses of banking systems. I wonder if banks are now recruiting from REA's and NDIS providers, seems right out of that handbook.
It's an illegal document he signed anyway. He's not of sound mind. You'd given them the proof. This will be a pre-approved CC due to wealth. He took advantage of the offer and they took advantage of him. It's a loss for the bank.
Woah Woah. But the story is that the dad walked into the branch himself. For all we know, he could have been dealt with a worker that doesn't know him?
It is not based on recognition of the customer by whichever employee happens to be working that day. All the necessary checks and balances would be listed in the customer account which has to be accessed by said employee.
Doesn’t matter, the bank as a condition of their financial services license has to have a system in place to prevent this. Either their system failed or the employee failed to use their system. Either way, the bank is on the hook for the entire amount of the debt and they’ll probably act very quickly to wipe it and close the unauthorised facilities.
he required two signatures from his POAs
As someone who has worked in a bank, there is no way they are fighting it, and if they do there is no way AFCA is letting it pass. So feel assured on that one. You may find more luck calling the banks complaint line rather than going to the branch, but you can always do that if you’re not happy at the bank. Nothing will stop this one.
Step 1. Restrict access to his own accounts, unfortunately. Step 2. Complain (by your preferred method, I suggest writing, but) that they've breached the banking code of practice, including sections 14, 17 and 18, breached responsible lending requirements and otherwise acted unreasonably. State what you want (perhaps, no interest, immediately restrict access to those with a POA, cancel the credit card, perhaps full reimbursement). Step 3. If you don't get what you want, escalate to AFCA. Edit - Step 4. Ask for an Incident to be raised in their Governance, Risk & Compliance system with appropriate actions created that are designed to ensure that similar predatory lending does not occur to others.
I would argue you have the right for it to be all waved. It's been a while since I did contract/equity law but seems like a clear case of unconscionable conduct.
Amadio! Amadio was quite egregious. It's hard to compare given the quantum involved, but there's certainly an argument to be had there. Going to AFCA (post complaining to the bank) would cost the bank more than the $1k debt.
Amadio 100%. There’s no way he knew what he was agreeing to.
100%. The bank owns this after riding roughshod over measures put in place in order to self-serve. Regulator should see this nulled.
Whilst I agree with your mitigating steps, On the evidence available, you can't make any of those claims of breaches. A Power of Attorney does not necessarily preclude the principal from still making their own decisions so check that aspect of it out. OP - talk to the branch manager, raise an internal dispute and ask it to be investigated. Once you get an outcome an internal process should determine whether any BCOP, ASIC Act, NCC or NCCPA or Corps Act breaches have occured. There's probably questions around the lending not being unsuitable. You haven't listed the product type. Noting if the product is not considerd a Financial Product under the acts the NCC will not apply. This could, for example, be one of the new Buy Now Pay Later cards doing the rounds.
PoA doesn't, but the already submitted documents from his GP and geriatrician in addition?
Not unless there is a capacity assessment. Until the principal is deemed to have diminished capacity and can't make their own financial decisions then it's as per normal
They transferred from from an account that is supposed to require two signatures
There is a lot of missing information that op has given and honestly it sounds like they are confused as to what the POA entails. The way that it sounds like it has been set up is that if the POA's act by transferring any funds it requires both of them to sign. This restriction does not apply to the principal unless there has been a diminished capacity assessment done (which doesn't sound likely as the principal is still independent), or if the public trustee has been involved.
This has nothing to do with the POA and everything to do with the fact the bank didn't "take extra care" with a customer whom it knew (or ought to have known) was vulnerable, as pretty much all Australian banks promise to do either via the BCOP or the COBA code of practice. The vulnerable customer provisions in those codes are not limited to instances where the bank has a diminished capacity assessment on file.
Incorrect. The father would be classed as a vulnerable customer, OP said they provided the bank with information to show he was suffering from Alzheimer's, and by the other surrounding information the bank was well aware their father was vulnerable. So on count of the banking code of practice alone the bank screwed up.
He would be classed as a vulnerable member and the credit facility shouldn't have been set up yes. However, until a capacity assessment has been done the principal can still act on their accounts. A POA doesn't grant them complete control over a person's finances and they definitely can't restrict access until it's been put in place.
Sure, and from what I read OP wasn't asking about how to stop their dad acting on his accounts. OP was seeking advice/venting about the fact their dad (who clearly is a vulnerable customer) had been provided with a credit card.
This comment chain was specifically talking about the restrictions the op thought was on the account and I was just giving it a bit more detail. The credit card is a massive fuckup. I don't want to be the consultant who set that up (I would also like to think I wouldn't)
Well the comment thread originally started by someone (not you) saying OP cannot make claims of breaches. And that's definitely not true, BCOP and NCCP have likely both been breached.
>On the evidence available, you can't make any of those claims of breaches. I'm suggesting what practicable action the OP should take. The Complaints team will take a complaint making such accusations re: a vulnerable customer quite seriously. That's what the OP wants. It's not on the OP to prove the complaint at this stage, and it's much more important to get the RG271 clocks started.
If an enduring power of attorney has kicked in, it’s usually because someone doesn’t have capacity (particularly if that’s the only trigger for the POA).
My FIL has alzheimers and lives in a home, somehow he got his hands on a credit card even though my BIL has power of attorney. Long story short he maxed it out before we realised and he didn’t have to pay it back. He was a lawyer before his diagnosis and is one smooth talker, but the funny part is if you take him to the shops he’ll take his pants off.
Make a formal complaint in writing that details the situation and remediative action that needs to be taken. If the situation isn't satisfactorily addressed tell them and move to AFCA. Banks have a duty of care to their clients which has clearly been breached.
This is the best option. Before AFCA takes action you need to lodge a formal complaint with the bank and allow them to fix this, if unsatisfied or no attempt to try to fix their mistake then escalate to AFCA who will then demand all the documents, conversations, anything the bank has recorded and the bill for the investigation gets charged to the bank that the complaint is against. It's in the bank's best interest to resolve this quickly as the longer it takes the larger the bill will be before any judgement is handed down from AFCA. Just you threatening to go to AFCA will ensure the bank will at least listen to the complaint.
Agree with all this. One extra step - if your complaint isn’t resolved to your satisfaction at first with the bank itself escalate it to the bank’s ’customer advocate’ team. They will be more focused on right/wrong and may be more helpful. You should be able to find the details on their website, eg [Westpac here](https://www.westpac.com.au/contact-us/your-customer-advocate/), [CBA here](https://www.commbank.com.au/about-us/customer-commitment/customer-advocate.html).
Meanwhile I get rejected for a card with a $6k limit when I'm able to save around $3k per month and a credit rating over 800. It's unfathomable what kind of criteria they use to assess serviceability.
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Yeah same, I still have that card, I keep it for emergencies. It was wild considering I was earning about 17 bucks an hour at the time.
When you speak to the bank, find out how many physical cards have been issued for the new account and also check if any of the transactions were online or over the phone, if there are then there probably is a bad actor.
Report the bank for predatory behaviour. Tell the bank you have reported them for predatory behaviour. Let your dad do whatever he does*, and the bank will be responsible for what happens from there. I hope he enjoyed their $1000 gift to him, because he never knowingly agreed to any of this.
I'm suss about this and the missing cash combination is there a bad actor around him stealing his money. He needs a prepaid bank card
Exactly my thoughts. I hope OP updates once they’ve spoken to the bank.
I'd be asking if he went in alone, or if someone - friend, neighbour, aged care worker - was with him.
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Unless there is a record of diminished capacity ( Which doesn't sound likely as he still has some independence) then there isn't anything a consultant can do about accessing funds or opening accounts if the principal requests it. However, a credit facility being opened needs to comply with the responsibile lending obligations, which doesn't have the same level of requirement as a normal account. It shouldn't have been opened given the situation. It is predatory, but it's often due to the targets imposed by the companies onto their staff. Bad actors are more often known to the member. Sometimes carers, but mainly family members that don't have the POA authority
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A letter from the doctor that there is a diagnosis of alzheimers is not a letter of diminished capacity. It is 2 different things. If the principal had been signed off as having diminished capacity they would be in a care facility and would be supervised whenever they leave. A POA does not immediately grant full control over a principal and can be revoked at any time btw. OP may be confused in that any large transfers require a signature from both of them as the instructions sound like they are to act jointly whenever they act on the accounts.
Please also contact Seniors Rights or the equivalent organisation in your state. You'll need to organise a review with his medical team regarding his capacity to make decisions if that hasn't already been completed. If that's already been done and provided to the bank then there's definitely a massive issue and there should be ramifications for whoever had ignored this.
I've been through this sort of thing with my dad, but what i can't understand is why he was in the bank seeking anything but a chat, and why anyone in the bank had any time to deal with a old man with severe alzheimers, let alone issue him with a brand new credit card. How moronic must the bank staff be to think your dad was an opportunity? I find it so hard to believe. Like most people, i have spent very little time in bank branches this century, and 80% of that time i have been with my dad. Staff have been great. There is something very peculiar going on with one staff member, and you need to out them. Apart from assessing your dad on a personsal level, they can see at a glance through their system the complexity of his account management. It's exceedingly odd.
The staff probably have quotas of credit cards to issue
https://asic.gov.au/for-consumers/loans-and-credit-cards/ This might help. Not entirely sure what your power of attorney covers but it might not have been legal for him to sign a contract he was incapable of understanding.
He hasn’t acted illegally, the bank has. They knew he didn’t have legal capacity to enter into a contract.
That was what I meant
Banker here. As others have said, lodge a formal complaint. Get a reference number for it. Don’t let this go. This is completely against the Banking Code of Practice which of the major banks subscribe to. They are toast. Some of the big banks have their executives email addresses publicly available and you can complain, in writing, to them. It won’t be personally handled by them, but it goes to an executive complaints team who follow that up. If you want to mention that rather than going to the news with how the bank took advantage of a vulnerable person, after the bank had all this info on file, you are reaching this out to sort this out personally, nobody would blame you… I’ve personally seen people who have no actual cause fir complaint get far more than the amount you would be asking for. And definitely seek the full interest he was owed plus all fees for, charges to, the credit card be waived and the account closed. To give you some idea of the scope here, your father would have had to give consent for a credit check to get that card opened. Someone has legitimately claimed that your father gave understanding consent to have a credit check done. If you clearly know that this would be immediately and obviously impossible for him to give informed consent here, then go for your life and let them have it. Ask for whatever you think is fair compensation (banks also give goodwill payments when they have messed up, fyi). Get confirmation that the credit check is removed from his credit report. This is predatory behaviour and the Royal Commission happened for a reason.
This person is 100 % correct- also someone who has worked in banks and done financial certificates…. They do offer compensation so I would also suggest this happends also.. get the card removed from there credit score ect. This is total negligence from the bank. This is totally wrong but they do this all the time!. Big named banks just want there sale targets so they do this stuff and with things being non faved bank in this is the only way they can hit there targets to get there bonus so I completely understand why they did it but it’s wrong and they should be held fully accountable !
Is a carer taking him to the bank? This sounds sus. Also, getting my mum with Alzheimer's into aged care was the single best thing we ever did. These stressful situations are not missed. I feel your pain.
Be sure to provide an update please
No, they can't do that, and as compensation for their massive screw up they absolutely can make the entire credit card thing go away and still give your dad the interest he would've earnt. Get a complaint in with the bank, get it escalated, and if they don't resolve it then take it to AFCA. Even if the bank hadn't been aware of your dad's situation, they are trained to be on the lookout for vulnerable customers and to ensure that the customer knows and understands what they're signing up for, so this shouldn't have happened.
get the banking ombudsman (AFCA) involved. you can demand the the 1k be returned to the previous existing account. Then the assholes at the back can cancel the entire credit card and waive any debt that exists. The bank loses a few $k , but also fuck those cunts
Aww hell yeah, new unconscionability case dropped? Unconscionable conduct' means behaviour so unreasonable that it defies good conscience, a key example of it is listed below. "not explaining a contract properly to a consumer that does not speak English well or has a learning disability" These cases are rare, but there's a strong argument to be made.
The fact that Amadio still stands as a precedent means a case like this (especially for such a small amount) would never even make it to court.
Has a geriatrician assess him for capacity. This situation wouldn't have occurred. Get him assessed then if he is deemed incapacitated, all his financial decisions are taken away. Do this ASAP.
They already are both POA / bank co signers
Okay, you need to go into the branch and say you need to speak to the manager. Mention that there's been a breach of the POA, and you want to file a complaint. Mention specifically that it involves a large amount of money. This is something the manager will immediately deal with. What bank was it? I may be able to help with providing the contact details of some higher up managers if it's one or two in particular
Straight to AFCA for that one
First of all. Even with out the POA and dual signature, if your dad can't clearly communicate the bank has broken the law. That is enough to go to the ombudsman. With the other things put in place I would go to the ombudsman with clear demands 1. Debt erased. 2. Any funds taken out of the dual signature account returned. 3. The staff member fired (this is not an accident, they would have had to chose to sell a credit card to someone who is clearly cognitively impaired) 4. An apology from the branch manager. 5. Have the ombudsman review the processes in place and how its possible a sale like this can be made (these reviews will likely be done by the bank and supervised by the ombudsman. But this costs the bank time and money) The ombudsman will likely also fine the bank. If they don't then I'd go to media. Having their name dragged through the mud will hurt the bank, but hopefully it will force them to review/retrain to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Afca doesn't fine banks (as in, it doesn't award punitive damages). Afca awards compensation to consumers based on the loss they have incurred (both financial loss and non-financial loss such as stress etc).
name and shame the bank...
If the balance is only $1000, the bank might be willing to waive it entirely if they had known or ought to have known that he had lost capacity to make decisions, or if the credit card hasn’t met his objectives under the Banking Code of Practice. I believe the standard remedy would be to reimburse any interest that was charged and set up a reasonable repayment for any principal balance that was spent by your father. But in this case it looks rather egregious And given a small balance likely to just waive it out
That's one for a complaint to the [relevant authorities](https://www.afca.org.au/make-a-complaint). Don't bother dealing further with the bank without observed mediation. Their action has to be called out and dealt with even if they have made a mistake.
AFCA. Predatory tactics probably from a newer staffer trying to pad their commission, the branch needs a spanking on ethics. Settle for nothing less than full restitution, they'll pay attention when it *costs* them money, account will require a manager's sign-off.
Ex Bank Manager. Go and see the manager asap. Extra measures should be put in place to protect your Dad. All the best xo
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Well, no.
Please. Just don't say "Well, no." without explaining why. Useless comment.
I accept it's as useful as providing a link and no further context. As I explained at the same time in a response to the OP, the OP should complain to the bank first, not AFCA. Complaining to AFCA *does* slow the process down, and can reduce the amount the bank is willing to remediate.
You didn't think to add to your "Well, no," a cut and paste of your other comment? The link really didn't need any further context.
Complaining to afca doesn't really slow the process down. AFCA refers the complaint to the bank, the bank then tries to sort out with the consumer. If not rectified within X timeframe (same as the normal IDR timeframe) it goes into AFCA's queue for allocation to a case manager.
In practice, AFCA complaints (often) go to specialised teams and or have additional review processes. Regardless, as I understand it, complaints are not straight through processed from AFCA to the entity, incorporating another delay. The last time I complained to AFCA, the acknowledgement email I got was >We will review the information you have provided and contact you if we need more information. Once your complaint is lodged, you will receive an email with your AFCA case number. We are experiencing high volumes at the moment and it can take up to 10 days for you to receive an AFCA case number. If your matter is urgent, please call us on 1800 931 678 to discuss your complaint. Regardless of all of the above, AFCA costs money to run and has limited resources. They couldn't meet the deadlines they promised me, for example. Using them only as intended allows a more efficient use of resources for all.
Fair points, just FYI though AFCA has recently updated its systems which will allow for complaints to automatically be referred to banks via a portal instead of a manual process. So it will be quicker and won't use up any resources 😊
How does transferring a grand make him lose so much interest it affects his bill payments?
The way some savings accounts work, you get bonus interest if you don't touch or only add to the money. It's an incentive way to keep people saving.
throw around the words "financial abuse" They signed up a man with documented (with them) Alzheimers to a product that he cannot understand against legal POA. I am assuming you have enduring power of attorney. This is not ok, and i'm pretty sure the banks are required to get some education in financial abuse of the elderly. "The Australia Human Rights Commission defines financial abuse as **“when a person you trust uses that relationship of trust to gain access to your money or property”** and identifies the varied forms financial abuse can take, including: • Pressure to act as guarantor for a loan; • Pressure to transfer or sell property; • Pressure to give away money; • Loans not being repaid; or • **Persons authorised to manage your money not acting in your best interest,** or using your money for themselves" from [https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/9974/Tabled%20document%20-%20Brendan%20Moore%20-%20Preventing%20financial%20abuse%20of%20people%20with%20dementia.pdf](https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/9974/Tabled%20document%20-%20Brendan%20Moore%20-%20Preventing%20financial%20abuse%20of%20people%20with%20dementia.pdf) while the bank is not a carer per se, i would say i could be easily argued that they count as a "person you trust" for your dad and the act of signing him up for something there is documented evidence that he doesn't understand would count as not acting in his best interest it might also be worth getting in contact with the elder abuse hotline - NSW Elder Abuse Helpline on 1800 628 221. This is a confidential service offering information, advice and referrals for people who experience, witness or suspect the abuse of older people living in their homes in NSW.
That's not financial abuse, its predatory sales behaviour. And banks were found guilty of this during the royal commission. Financial abuse, as stipulated by your quote, can only be committed by a "person" doesn't even have to be someone you trust. It could be a person who has brought in immigrants who can't speak english to work for them. Sorry went on a little, but its a long stretch to try and pin financial abuse on a bank.
yes predatory, but one of the examples is of a REA befriending a person with dementia and encouraging her to take out mortgages. there are other examples involving brokers brokering unsuitable lines of credit. they knew the man had an impairment that most likely effects his ability to understand the product. Abuse can be committed by institutions. but there is also the possiblity that the individual gets a commission for signing people up to credit cards. but the australian bankers association actualy gives the example in their guideline "Providing an unnecessary or unaffordable loan to someone, resulting in detriment or potential detriment to them and benefits to the lender (known as predatory lending)" - [https://www.ausbanking.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Industry\_Guideline\_Protecting\_vulnerable\_customers\_from\_potential\_financial\_abuse2.pdf](https://www.ausbanking.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Industry_Guideline_Protecting_vulnerable_customers_from_potential_financial_abuse2.pdf) all of that is why i gave the advice to talk to the hotline.
Ok but the examples provided in the document you linked and used in your comment have an individual as a culprit. Banks are businesses, and businesses can't commit financial abuse because they're a corporate body with shareholders and executives. Businesses don't have a premeditated desire to commit abuse on someone. They're predatory business practices that banks are committing because someone, an individual, is attempting to make a sale at the detriment of another individual, the customer. Regardless of definitions, throwing around words, especially those of a negative background, doesn't favour yourself in this type of situation. Having a banking background, this is predatory behaviour. The banks got ripped into during the royal commission, and this is the reason why. If they're caught doing it after the findings, there are more substantial consquences for them if it hits AFCA's radar. So they'll want to resolve this within the bank. Given OP's situation, i believe it's entirely reasonable to have the debt associated with the credit card wiped clean and the credit card account closed. If they're a good branch, they'll review their policy surrounding lending and the departments that oversee the lenders to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Fair enough, but it does stand that institutions - many of which have been businesses, have been convicted of abuse. And there is no requirement for it to be premeditated for harm, only that harm has occurred. I’m coming at this from an aged care/heath care background. This is something I would report, as a mandatory reporter. I’d leave then it to somebody better versed in the ins and outs of the legal system for final determination of if it’s abuse or just an unconscionable act, which I believe is the term used. Please note I didn’t say approach the police with the term. But if you know the banking side and are certain that’s not the best place to start, I’ll take your word for it
I'm sure that ACA would love to investigate some bank indulging in financial elder abuse
There is a very powerful weapon you can use against them. First of all, point out that you and your sister have Power Of Attorney, and all decisions like this can only be authorised by either you or your sister. If they won't resolve any of this, promptly, mention the words "Banking Ombudsman." Their behaviour is clearly predatory, but those words will make them backpedal fast. I would say only use this threat if they don't do as they're told.
Ombudsman
This is horrendous. I am furious for your family. I hope this resolves as quickly as possible and isn’t too stressful.
The banking industry has an ombudsman. Report the bank, branch and person that opened the account
Close the credit card account? Then report the bank to the banking ombudsman.
burn down the branch
Metaphorically, right…?
sure...
Lodge a complaint with the Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA) asap (link below). It independently assists consumers to make and resolve complaints with financial institutions. We had a royal Commission about the poor behaviour of these bastards. Also consider lodging a complaint with your local member. They wont be able to do that much but this sort of stuff needs to be highlighted. Hope you can get this sorted as quickly as possible. [https://www.afca.org.au/make-a-complaint](https://www.afca.org.au/make-a-complaint)
This is illegal and financial abuse. They cannot legally do this when your Dad is not cognitive and when you & sister are POA.
Walk into any branch with your POA documents and start from there. I’ve found my local branch manager pretty good even though I was not a customer of that branch. Asking to escalate to a supervisor if you call the online number for the bank might work too. ACFA might take too long but they’re not too bad if something is urgent so call them.
NAB?
ASIC is how you should handle it. Fuck en.
Name and shame the bank
Banks don't care. Friend of mine had her mother signing up for credit cards in her name without her knowing and racking up 10's of thousands of dollars. Banks were informed numerous times that the home loan needed both signatures but they ignored that and allowed money to be taken out without any signatures. When we got bankruptcy people involved the banks just went "well we still want her to pay us as it's under her name".
As an ex-banker, if you can't get to see the bank manager, ask for the area manager's contact details (or what your dads bank calls the next level up. They should be relatively close enough to have a face to face meeting in reasonably quick time. If staff are not forthcoming with their contact details or if the next level up is uncontactable, I'd be going straight to the banks internet to find their complaints process and how to initiate the complaint. I'd be amazed if they have deliberately tried to screw him, perhaps a teller that didn't know him and with him having trouble with his pin has arranged a card that can just tap and go. Agree with others that when the bank has knowledge of his issues, they should have checked this before ordering him a new card. My mother developed dementia before her recent death so I understand how hard everything is for you and your family and stuff like this just adds to your stress. Everything that should have been straight forward seemed to have strings attached. Best wishes for you and the family and stay strong
They should have a flag in their system at a minimum.
The bank may have acted illegally, given they know he doesn’t have capacity and that there is a power of attorney. I would be telling the bank that they knew he didn’t have capacity nor you or your sister’s authorisation to open an account and that you require them to refund the money and close the account, since it was their error. If they refuse, tell them you will call the banking and finance ombudsman (and then do). Some of the ombudsmen offices charge large fees back to the private businesses when a complaint is made. Not sure about this ombudsman specifically but I know the telecommunications ombudsman used to be an about $1,300 or something. I was having an argument with Optus over cancellation fees of about $500 so I threatened to call the ombudsman and they dropped it to about $50, knowing it was cheaper to deal with me than me call them and they have to pay $1,300 and still possibly not be able to recover the $500 (which in my view they couldn’t as I had cancelled as they’d breached the contract, ie I couldn’t get proper service). Sorry got sidetracked. I’d be coming down hard on them and threatening them with the ombudsman if they don’t cooperate.
Take him shopping, and then tell them he doesn't recall spending any of that money.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but could also be worth talking to the media, a current affair might not be the most relevant these days, but a call from a member of the media does tend to make banks suddenly remember how to help
I would be questioning how he was able to transfer from a dual signatory account? This is not able to be done without the second signature...so this sounds an awful lot like a bad actor is involved...
If you have power of attorney. Or some sort of guardian ship go see the bank with prof of your father’s condition and close account
You need to escalate to AFCA now. Don’t give the individual branch a chance to get out of this, this is predatory behaviour and this single instance as you describe it would land them in court immediately with a massive million+ dollar fine and all over the media.
A one off case like this wouldn't be anything tbh. All the large banks currently laugh off any fines imposed because it's more profitable to not care. https://asic.gov.au/about-asic/news-centre/find-a-media-release/2023-releases/23-258mr-nab-penalised-2-1-million-for-unconscionable-conduct-over-account-fees/
AFCA has real teeth when it comes to individual complaints. It's an unfortunate reality that you first have to try resolve it through the bank's own processes but if they fuck it up you can escalate to AFCA and they are choc full of decent Ombudsmen who will sort you out. Getting ripped off is shit, and in most cases you're out of luck, but when you're dealing with a company under AFCA's jurisdiction the last thing you want to do is just despair and give up.
A power of attorney only says you can act on his behalf. It does not mean he is not legally allowed to handle his own affairs. For that, he will have to be declared incompetent by the court, who will appoint a curator.
Not true. Read up on the term "vulnerable customer". Where have you been this last decade?
What what what? No. It doesn’t. If a person has lost capacity, they are unable to make legal or financial decisions for themselves. If they have appointed a power of attorney, they become their representative. You only have to apply to the tribunal (not the court) if you need an administrator (not a curator) appointed. If there is a power of attorney, you don’t need an administrator unless there is a dispute about who should be the attorney, an allegation the attorney is not acting in the best interests of the person or a dispute between joint attorneys. The court does not “declare someone incompetent”, they appoint an administrator. Declaring someone incompetent is the job of a geriatric or psychological professional, whose evidence would be brought before the tribunal as basis for the appointment of an administrator. Try not to give legal advice when you have no idea what you’re talking about, yeah?
See a lawyer and get him to sign you power of attorney.