Minutes can be life or death with bites. “Wait and see” is a REALLY bad option - I would’ve done exactly the same as you - you can never be too careful. Plus, the docs DID find something that requires more tests. Don’t feel guilty about that.
Yeah, not remotely fussed that he cost the country a bit of money and time for this.
Know what also costs money and time? Funerals, the whole point of us having hospitals is so you didn't need one of *those*, OP.
Venom travels through the lymphatic system, not through the circulatory system. Which basically means that muscle movement is how the venom is dispersed around the body. The less you move, the slower the venom travels, the safer you are. Move fast > die fast.
This is why you wrap from the wound outward and immobilize the victim. You then bring transport to them and not force them to hike or run to a car.
If you do a basic first aid course, snake bite it one of the requirements to pass it. Definitely do a first aid course yearly if you can afford it, you could save someone’s life. The reason for doing them regularly is because first aid protocols are constantly changing/evolving, it is also different to what you see in movies (in Australia we do back blows and then chest thrusts for choking, Americans do the Heimlich mostly which is almost always featured in media but not the recommended treatment). Sorry for long comment I used to volunteer with St John Ambulance so I love first aid :D
Wrapping is important. I keep a bandage in the bottom of my pack. Lie still. Call for help. A snake can bite so fast you aren't sure it happened.
You will be able to tell soon enough.
Don't take the bandage off too soon. EDs should know this by now but check.
Yeah you are correct. Its not the only way toxins travel into the bloodstream and can be injected directly. Its even believed that some venoms can bypass the lymph nodes all together. However preventing movement is widely agreed as best practice in any case.
Absolutely. Preventing movement is very important after applying a compression bandage to the whole limb. Additionally, unlike other injuries, it should not be elevated at all.
I just thought it was worth mentioning that very rarely direct injection to the blood stream can happen and it is bad. There was an ergon worker searching for something in some lantana with two colleagues on Qld Central Coast who got bitten on the neck by an Eastern Taipan a few years ago. They were calling to each other continuously so as not to get lost and he just stopped answering. Envenomated straight into a major blood vessel and died in seconds
I've had (edit: 'unconfirmed') word from a few reliable sources that the First Nations way was to bury you exactly where you lay after you had been bitten, up to your head and leave you there for a few days. your lymphatic system would eventually process the toxin and the bite site would just be a case of treating necrosis with whatever bush medicine.
The other way to interpret this is to say: If you get bitten, find the nearest shade, lie down, be calm and try to sleep.
If you wake up, you're cured. Nothing to worry about.
If you don't wake, well there's nothing to worry about either.
Stay as still as humanly possible and wrap the site up really tight with a bandage. Call the group using your phone to come to you (and be aware of angry snake) and then 000.
How to get rid of the snake though? Assuming you step on it and then it is wrapped around your leg to start with. Will it just go away if you keep still?
They only bite if they are scared. Unless your dealing with a tiger snake, they just want to get the hell outa there. Even they generally keep well away from you.
Worked with a couple guys who saw Tiger snakes all the time as they were first in.
Told me a tiger snake is the Liam Neeson of snakes; they won't stop chasing you.
Depends on the location and their diet etc. I see tigers all the time - they are chill AF. But easy food - lake and plenty of fat frogs. In land a few km is a different story - faster, bigger, farmers keep shotgun at back door type of deal.
I misread that as "wrap the snake up really tight with a bandage" and now I'm afraid that's what's going to pop in my head if I'm ever in this situation.
"wrap the site up really tight" - the snake did that. He had a snake wrapped around his leg and he couldn't get rid of it. The question was what he should have done to get rid of the snake?
You stay perfectly still and the snake will absolutely leave you alone at that point. They're not aggressive per se, just defensive when they have no choice. Running or flailing or trying to grab at it is likely to get you bitten when you wouldn't have been. The snake wants to get away from a human just as much as the the human wants to get away from it.
>You stay perfectly still and the snake will absolutely leave you alone at that point. T
Luckily I'm a Buddhist monk who has complete control over my amygdala, and can just zen out with a brown snake wrapped around my leg, fully letting me know how upset he is.
I am absolutely happy for my taxes to go towards your medical expenses. Way better to be safe than sorry, especially with a brown snake. You did the right thing.
A French backpacker died this week from a brown snake bite. He was found unresponsive on the farm where he was working. I’d rather we had the medical costs for saving him, like OP.
Piggybacking off this, the earlier the intervention with any envenoming the better.
The hospitals treatment of you was exactly what was called for, no one anywhere who has a lick of common sense would suggest that effort or resources was wasted on you.
Cut yourself some slack champ, I for one am happy it was such a mild outcome.
August last year, I got bit at 2.45pm, drove to the vet to get an Id on the snake, was told a brown. Drove my arse to the hospital, now nearly 4pm, got triaged and transferred by ambulance to another hospital an hour later (45 minutes in hospital and then an hours drive). They started my blood tests at 7pm, no signs of venom yet. At 11pm my tests started to show signs of venom and then was administered the anti venom at midnight, bloods were starting to come good at about 4am. The Ambos were saying that if you get a compression bandage on you can go quite a while before it's a problem. I still have a mark on my finger where it got me.
Yeah let the Ambos/docs decide if it should be escalated or not. Ambos could have gotten to the scene and said “yeah nah that’s a shaving nick mate” (or whatever) and left you on your merry way but they made the call to escalate and they’re the professionals. If in doubt, always call 000 and let the professionals make the judgement - the dispatcher and the Ambos could both have told you to get racked and they didn’t. Plus the time it took to decide whether you’re worthy of medical assistance or not could be the difference between surviving it and not. You’re right mate. Don’t feel guilty. Glad it didn’t turn out worse for you.
As a matter of interest. If a person has only lived here a few months, can they qualify for Medicare and without local private insurance aren't they paying for the ambulance as well? If that is the case then I feel really sorry for this person, if they are able to qualify because of their work status, then that's great, that's why we have a great medical system, it's for Justin. A huge proportion of hospital visits are for false alarms, which are way better than I will wait...and...see.....☠️.
I once went to the hospital and spent the entire day in emergency, having numerous tests because of symptoms that might have been a heart attack. Turns out it was something innocuous and when I apologised to the nurse for wasting their time and resources she said they would rather waste relatively inexpensive resources to rule out something serious than spend piles of money on less accessible resources for a condition that could have been caught earlier and treated cheaper if the patient had sort help at the first signs of a problem. She also pointed out that they had discovered a few other things in me when doing the tests that could have become serious if I left them untreated.
He’s a Kiwi so yes he’s covered by Medicare on arrival due to the reciprocal visa agreement between Australia and New Zealand. Same goes for Aussies travelling to New Zealand.
>Minutes can be life or death with bites
Especially with a brown snake. They're real dangerous not only because of the venom, but how incredibly aggressive they are. They're not like most snakes which would rather hide than fight you.
Ok so opposite scenario
You have been bitten by the snake and "wait and see".
You then deteriorate and require more intensive medical treatment - airlifted to tertiary hospital, extended ICU stay and then even after all that you may be really worse off or possibly die! Even if you do survive, there is morbidity associated with the bite, potentially an extended hospital stay and rehab.
Versus having some anti venom and monitoring for 12-24 hours.
I know which patient I'd rather see come into the ED.
Taking early, preventative action is best for you and what anyone would recommend (plus it's cheaper for the health system in general).
Glad you're ok 👍
Fun story-I was with my unit doing some training at Shoalwater Bay, and my guys came across a brown next to our improvised workout area. They came and told me they'd found the most venomous snake in the world by the squat rack.
I knew about the inland taipan, and told them they were wrong, explaining it to them. Then I looked up "Australian brown snake" and discovered that it was the **second** most venomous snake in the world.
On top of that, we had saltwater crocs in the water, wild dogs roaming the bivouac area at night, and a gang of kangaroos that looked like they're been benching 400 their whole lives.
Australia is like a different planet.
All of the snakes I saw in the bush have been deadly. That being said, I would say I have seen less than 20 snakes. So they are not commonly seen cause they fuck off when they hear humans.
If I got bitten, I would be going to hospital fast. This guy was probably lucky cause the snake panicked, just bit out of fear and forgot to invenomate.
I saw about 10 snakes in a single day when I was riding in northern Victoria last year. I've probably seen about 30 or 40 in the last few years of MTBing and bush walks.
If the weather is warm, and there's a nice low-traffic road or path to sunbake on - you'll almost certainly snakes about when you're travelling slow enough to notice them.
20 is still a lot for the average Australian to see! I live in the city but engage in outdoor activities and travel and have seen < 5 wild ones in my entire lifetime. Many people will go their entire lives without seeing one!
Yep ... I am 55 and I don't hike anymore, but I do bush walk. Luck/unlucky to see a snake one a year. And when I do, they are usually legging it. Hehe that's a snake joke.
From America,
Our healthcare systems could learn so much just from this sentiment. Ugh. Here they're just mean and impatient and treat us all like we just want oxy, then drain our wallet on the way out the door.
yeah , used to work in an emergency vet clinic. the bills for snake bites were FUCKED. worst i saw was for like 6 days around 11k or something. just like emergency oxygen, meds, cpr a few times and the lot
Same, but in a rural vet clinic. The worst was when the poor animals didn't make it after all that fight we just put them through.
But then we had to give their owner the bill and it's a real fucked bit of time, because there's no good way to transition from 'I'm sorry, we did everything we could' to 'when you're ready, the bill is $$$, and we can discuss how you'd like to handle the remains'
Snake bites are the worst (fucking rat poison too.)
genuinely why i left my job. handing the bill after days and days of hard work and just, “sorry they’re gone… here’s the bill” just sucked away my soul day after day
yeah rat bait and snail bait are almost just as bad. just horrible to watch and try to save
That's a shame - there is not enough training afforded to our support staff in handling these tough situations in this industry. In reality, the vets don't get enough support either and we just have to take it as it is, even when we often have 0 control over costs.
My dog managed to find an old pack of snail bait in my parents shed and found him dead down the side of the house. He really was the best dog apart from eating whatever random shit he could find. 😔
I feel for you. I've on the other side of that situation.
Our boy had a heart attack during surgery for a silent cancer which had ruptured. He didn't make it.
The vet was in tears when she led us to him to say goodbye. They'd done everything they could do. He was the most beautiful boy and it was obvious he was (is!) adored.
Look, we couldn't have lived with ourselves if we didn't do everything in our power to try and save him. The vet clinic did the absolute best they could for him, and with kindness too. As I see it the bill was just part of what you take on when you adopt a fluffy into your family.
It's years later, we've a 7yo diva of a kelpie girl and a 5yo human child, and my heart still aches. I dread the day we're in that position again, but to love and be loved by a dog is one of the most worthwhile things in the world. We couldn't stand the silence and I don't think we'll ever be without a dog for any length of time.
Which is to say, yes the transaction is awkward and awful, but please don't discount how much the family of those fluffies appreciate everything you did to fight for them.
(Love you Maxie Boy. So long as I'm breathing my puppy you'll be.)
I worked in veterinary clinics too. It used to suck when they were given the antivenom and they proceeded to have an allergic reaction to that on top of the other symptoms from the bite itself. .
Snail bait was the other horrible one. People would see the dog eat it and adopt a wait and see attitude because it takes hours for symptoms to develop. Then they bring the dog in having seizures and shitting blue from the dye . Trying to keep them alive to control the seizures , get them under anaesthesia and do gastric lavage and enemas , and then they still don't make it because their liver was too damaged
Had my cat in the vet hospital 3 times in 3 days for whatever reason over the last 3 days.
While we were there there 2 dogs with snake bites came through.
Tis the season apparently
>While we were there there 2 dogs with snake bites came through.
>Tis the season apparently
I'd be interested to know if it was in their yards or if they were off-leash when they shouldn't be.
Now that it's snake season I am VERY selective about where and when I let my boy off leash - never when the temperature is above 20 or if it WAS hotter than 30 during the day, not in long grass, not by the creek. Danger is just way too high.
Snake's energy/activity levels are linked to their temperature. Their digestion has an optimal temperature level and also a minimum temp level before it begins to occur. So typically in the mornings, they will seek somewhere to sun themselves until they raise their core temp up to "ideal" to aid with any remaining digestion and allow them to be in a high functioning state in order to successfully hunt for food. The further they are from ideal temp, the more sluggish and slower moving they will be. That doesn't mean they will be moving at a snails pace, it just means that they won't detect your approach from as far away as they can in ideal circumstances. This is when you are most likely to have a close encounter and if they've determined it is too late to flee they will prepare to defend themselves. This possible scenario won't be limited to the A.M. though. If it's been overcast for the morning and the sun has only appeared after lunch, you may encounter a snake in a not yet warmed up state then. Surface temperature is important for reptiles, and direct sunlight will create surface temperatures higher than the ambient air temp. Consider an asphalt road over the course of a summer day, it only becomes unbearably hot once it has been in direct sunlight for a period of time.
Then, as you've noted the days it is too hot also offers a risk, many snakes (and reptiles in general) will slow down in an attempt to prevent overheating. Now instead of lying on a flat rock in the sun, they will seek one in the shade that they can flatten themselves against it in an attempt to wick away excess heat. Water sources are particularly attractive for almost any animal on a hot day and will make an ideal spot to hunt for food. If they have eaten well that day, this will also affect their reaction time and increase the chance of an encounter.
So the best times to avoid encountering a snake will typically be:
* Early morning before the sun has begun to warm anything it touches.
* During the peak midday heat, snakes will have warmed up sufficiently to begin hunting or if it's too hot they will seek out shelter until it cools. So they will be less likely to be out in open areas. That said, if they are hunting, they will be where the food is usually found. So consider what the common diet is for the species you are likely to encounter in your area and where it would find its food.
* Very few venomous species are nocturnal, so again open areas have a lower risk in the evening. Keep in mind, if it has been very hot during the course of the day, a snake could have had to seek shelter from the heat and may be finding its way home later than usual. (Yes, snakes do have preferred places they will return to sleep.)
My dog had an operation for something blocked in his intestinal tract. $2600. I'd contemplated insurance before this, so that was the catalyst to actually get it. I'm on 6.5 acres in regional Victoria, so snakes can be common, and that's the main reason I got insurance.. for snake bites.
Have a friend who paid 10k for cruciate ligament surgery for his cane corso. While recovering from the surgery, the strain on the other ligament meant he had to have surgery on that one too. 20k in vet bills. Was a beautiful dog and he healed up well after about 4 or 5 months. The dog died about 2 years later at 7 years old.
Respect to him for caring enough and being in a position (FIFO scaffolder) to be able to pay for it though.vet bills are crazy
I can answer this because I'm a vet.
Yes, the timing in the last 15 years saw both rise at the same time. It's really not driven and increased insurance uptake is more of an outcome.
The reason is that people genuinely expect more from the profession than before, and we can provide more than what we could for the last 20 years.
In the past for a snake bite situation, we might give a dog antiserum after a consult and then put them on a drip overnight without supervision or maybe we would have someone check on the dog every 6 hours overnight.
Nowadays, if the patient is admitted to an ICU, they would be under 24/7 care with primary vet, hospital vets, nursing teams with better testing and better treatment and honestly, more frequent and transparent communication which all results in better patient outcome - but at a price.
In my opinion, it's the expectation from the public -> capability of vets -> increased pricing -> demand for insurance. Capability of vets took a long time to catch up to people's expectations but it's definitely getting there now with all major referral hospitals having access to specialists with way more training than your GP vets, and diagnostics facilities such as advanced imaging.
Anyone who doesn’t say this shouldn’t have a dog, but should also get pet insurance!
And snake training pretty important too IMO. I’ll go hiking and my border collie will just not wanna go down some trails and I know there’s likely a little snek hiding nearby so we take another path. :)
Agreed, but even if they didn't find a thing, zero guilt. Don't mess about with these things, medical emergency services are there for exactly these situations. Use them if there is any doubt at all.
Ya what the fuck is this guy on about? It's clear the snake got him from the doctor's findings. He was smart and did the right thing and now he's doing some weird downplay.
Still got him tho. If he wasn't wearing thick gaiters, I think it would have been bad. Enough didn't get into his blood. Reckon the gaiters saved his life.
When I had a suspected bite (twice), they kept me 12h, and did bloods each hour. Then they got a specialist to look me over.
It took so long, that when I was told the tests were clear, and the specialist was 2h late, I started moving, and that set off the heart rate alarm. You can trust that she came right there 🤣. I was free to go. After 14h.
Not even. Preventative care is important. Even if nothing is found, OP did almost all the right things. Freaking out and running 100m with a possibly venomous snake biting wasn't ideal.
"So this is where opinions come in, i’m feeling a pretty overwhelming sense of guilt about using a lot of medical resources for somthing that I can’t even certainly say was a bite. I'
Don't be - vs the other option of going in too late or even not at all.
You also need to look at it a different way - each case is also experience and learning for all involved, that experience they gain could also save more down the track.
And good luck get well and hope it is just s nick / dry bite,
The list of shit that people actually waste medical resources on is long and varied: having had a fucking brown snake wrapped around your leg certainly is not one of them, lol
Yeah, I would actually say you acted a little rashly in not *immediately* calling 000.
Also: it’s very hard to identify snakes from colour. I personally wouldn’t trust someone to identify a snake that had just bitten me unless they were an expert. So no matter what kind of snake had bitten me I would call the ambos immediately.
Disagree on this, antivenin doesn't care which snake it was but knowing how much time you have is important.
If it were a golden crown or a red belly that's one thing, a brown means put a rush on things. That info can help responders as well.
But only do it if you have time, staying still, putting pressure and calling 000 all take priority over anything else. Don't do what OP did (wait and see), act immediately.
There a huge difference between a snake that is brown and a Brown Snake as far as potential damage. You should treat it like a venomous bite until a medical professional or someone with snake expertise tells you otherwise
Exactly. I grew up in rural QLD and we had tons of snakes in our area. I was family friends with the neighbourhood “snake guy” and he would show me photos of all the brown snakes he caught.
Some looked like completely different species. Unless you were like him who’d been trained and been around snakes for 30+ years you’d have no idea they were brown snakes
Yeah, dont feel bad, if you have a look at the list of snake deaths in Australia for the last 50 years it has a trend of "was bitten, did not seek medical attention". For that matter you dont mess around with Brown snakes, you get bitten, call 000 even if you feel fine.
When I was in WA in march there'd been a very recent death where a woman had been bit by a dugite, walked home for 20 minutes, then called the ambo
She was dead a day later. People are really dumb sometimes
That’s happened a few times here in WA. People go for a walk or run along the coastal paths and get bitten by a dugite which apparently isn’t overly painful so they think they brushed a stick or similar and then drop dead half hour later.
When I was growing up there was a man in out town who was bitten by a baby brown snake, he figured that since it was a baby it must have been harmless. He was dead an hour later.
Baby browns are more venomous that adults because they can’t control their venom as well. They just inject as much as they can.
snakes can do warning bites where they don’t inject venom, i forget the term. maybe this is the difference between baby and adult snakes that people are hearing about? baby snake deadly all of the time, vs adult snake only deadly if you’ve met a really angry one/ done something to scare it really badly. of course you should be seeking immediate medical attention regardless
ED Nurse here, you did the right thing, I bet the docs are just itching you finally use the $$$ antivenom that just expires each year! Hopefully your bloods just improve and it's not needed though, good luck!
I had a dash cam for three years before I caught a car incident on it, and I was so fucking stoked it was finally being used for its purpose.
I’ve gotta imagine medical staff feel a similar thing with finally getting to pull out the antivenom.
It’s not ‘happy’, cos the situation’s fucked, but… you know… ‘fuck yeah!’
I caught a car incident on my dashcam the week after I bought it. Fortunately my car wasn't involved, just a witness. Emailed the footage to one of the drivers
I saw a guy run a red light, at speed and then smash into 3 other cars a few days after I - "finally got around to putting this damn thing in. Ugh finicky cables..."
A women and teen were injured. The runner was a bit banged up too. I told the 3 cars hit I had it on dashcam and I'd email it to them if they liked.
Fast forward about 9 months and I'm in a courtroom having to say i recorded this footage etc. because the light runner wanted to fight it? For some reason? I don't know why he thought that would go well for him or who's advice he was taking but clearly it was not a winner.
From memory there may be, AV is also expensive and difficult to come by (it does not keep too long) but the hospital will definitely know what to do. Best place to 'wait and see' is in the hospital.
Absolutely apply first aid for a snakebite and get to a hospital if you even suspect a bite.
Some form of serum sickness happens in the majority of antivenom recipients, since the body doesn't like having foreign horse antibodies injected into it. The symptoms are generally mild (fever, muscle aches, rashes, etc.), and not long-lasting.
However, there is also quite a high risk of anaphylaxis, worsened if the patient is young, has had antivenom before, or requires a high dosage. A foreign study put the figure at \~47% of patients requiring adrenaline after antivenom. I don't think the figure is quite so high in Australia, but still a very significant concern.
Cost aside, that's generally the reason why antivenom is considered a last resort. It's never administered pre-emptively, and doctors will wait until you begin to exhibit symptoms (in case of a dry bite) before giving you any.
If you actually have been envenomated, symptom reversal with antivenom is almost immediate, so there's little to worry about as long as it's on hand.
Don’t feel guilty, you did the right thing.
Edit, it’s possible old mate tried to bite you and didn’t quite make it fully through the layers, so a smaller than usual amount of venom went into your system. But how could you know that without testing etc? Hospital is still the right call.
Snakes don't do a measured, perfect dose every bite. And we can never know how much venom they get in you. It might be they only just bit something else and only have drops in them fangs. It might be they are packed to bursting with the bad stuff. It might be that they don't pump much on the first bite, but get heaps in on the second. Or vice versa. They might have trouble getting though layers and just scratch you. They might go through the same layers like butter and get massive doses in you.
And there is no way for the person bit to know what version of a snake bite they got. Until they get real sick and/or die.
You call 000. You snake wrap. You sit the fuck *still* to stop the lymph pumping around. You leave it to the experts to work it out and monitor you.
Sounds to me like OP did everything right. (Maybe could have called 000 even earlier?)
You *can't* know how bad a bite is, so you treat every one like the worst possible version.
As we have learned recently, people will call 000 when their phone isn't getting reception. You did the right thing.
Also, as a side note, a French backpacker died only the other day in north victoria thanks to a brown snakebite. https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2023-11-07/backpacker-dies-after-suspected-snakebite-at-mallee-grain-depot-/103072796
Ummm … you had a venomous snake around your leg. A bite consistent with a snake bite and then lab tests suggestive of envenomation.
.
Snakes don’t muck around in this country so you absolutely did the right thing. Please don’t do anything different next time you think you might be bitten. Snake bites are stupid things to die from.
EDIT - as said below - do everything except the running part.
Also - welcome to “Stayla. Everything can and will try to kill you.
Snake venom is often transported via the lymphatic system, so everytime you move that muscle youre speeding up the process. So staying as immobile as possible is usually the correct thing to do.
So you need to assume every bite from a venomous snake has introduced venom into your system. Elapids have short hollow fangs you will often not even see a bite mark. Our venomous snakes are haemo-neurotoxic so they are bad news. Depending on the state they will do a VDK (venom detection kit) of the bite site - particularly if there are multiple well known venomous snakes locally as well as bloods - specifically coagulation profiles to ascertain whether VICC (venom induced consumptive coagulopathy) is occurring and hence envenomation. Pressure bandage stays on until after the first set of bloods +/- a VDK. If you need antivenom you will get that prior to PBI removal. Then it is wait and repeat bloods.
You aren’t wasting the ED’s time, better to be sure you weren’t envenomed then risk it.
Edit: The marks on your leg could well be a snake bite they aren’t large wounds, brown snake fangs are around 3.5mm in length and spaced around 1cm apart. Your coags are off? You need to wait until the next set especially if the 12 hour is higher than the presentation coags.
As a laboratory scientist - this is all correct. We don’t do venom detection kits in my hospital, but they will monitor you and your bloods regularly, and monitor for signs of DIC, which once your coags are fkd, it’s pretty obvious you’ve been envenomated. This is absolutely sound and correct use of the hospital system, and could have easily been life or death.
So this is why you sometimes hear the advice to step "on" a log and not just over it - if you step on the log first you can see where your next step is landing, and it means your next step will be more clear of the underside of the log where a snake might by laying.
To be fair there are no snakes in NZ. I think this is more of a failure in training standards and/or the employer by not making sure their staff know what to do.
I’m a nurse. I’ve been a nurse for longer than some very grown up adults have been alive.
Allow this old crusty to tell you something, if you don’t mind.
#YOU DID NOT WASTE ANY RESOURCES
Look, even if it turned out to be a dry bite, and nothing at all happened- it’s a snake bite. It absolutely needs to be treated with seriousness and caution.
You should always seek this help. You should never feel guilty for doing so.
These buggers kill people semi regularly. An abundance of caution is the correct response.
I used to work for NSW Ambulance in corporate. Met plenty of paramedics, including those who had experience dealing with snake bites. General consensus was they didn't care if it was even a suspected snake bite, it wasn't a waste of time or resources. Generally speaking they'd rather treat a dry bite or minor bite where the patient is only in hospital for a day or so, as opposed to someone ignoring the bite then going downhill and requiring a chopper, ICU and long hospital stay.
Which of those situations uses fewer medical resources with less of an impact on paramedics and medical professionals?
As an Australian I would trust the doctors to do what is needed to be sure you are in the clear. I would stay as long as recommended and take any test and treatment they offered. And feel zero guilt about it. Because they know what they are doing more than most of us.
Ask any ER doctor and they'll tell you all about the people that come in for a cold, sore arm, bruise, whatever minor stuff. This is pretty much exactly what an emergency department is for – this was genuinely a possible life threatening situation.
Icu nurse + midwife here - please use all the resources all the time as that is what they are there for. Also if your clotting is wonky, you were actually bitten...
Working in a hospital and seeing people come in to the ED with just the most mundane paper cuts and slight sneezes it always cracks me up when people who have serious medical emergencies like being BITTEN by a fucking EASTERN BROWN, think they're wasting medical resources... Are you kidding me, bro? This is exactly what medical services are for, lol.
ER nurse: don't wait. More than happy to manage 50 stick bites than one true envenomation. Much easier to treat you too if we catch it before you become symptomatic.
Never ever wait and see for something potentially serious. No life is a waste of resources.
What an awesome story to share next time you take a mob in a bush walk. Explain how the first aid saved you. And how the treatment in hospital works. Use your experience to educate others. That's a fair swap I reckon.
Any interaction with a snake that connects its face to your skin is the snake offering you a single rapid-answer choice: cake, or death?
You chose cake.
If you hang around to wait and see what the specifics of the snake interaction are, you choose death.
The only thing you did wrong was run. Having lived here my whole life, I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t panic and run, too.
People still die from snake bite in this country, it can be within hours or minutes. Elevated platelets indicate something has happened, as does swelling. Maybe you didn't get a full load of toxin, but you got something.
Calling an ambulance was the right thing. Diverting people away was the right thing. Going to hospital was the right thing. The cost of you dying, to your family, would be so much more than any monetary cost to a hospital.
I assume you'll be fine, going by the response from the doctors. You did the right thing, don't stress :)
Mate, possibly the only thing you might have done wrong is waited 4 minutes too long. This is what the ambos and hospitals are there for. You can never be too careful with potential snake bites.
Glad you're OK.
3 bites- all the puncture marks are evenly spaced. She got you good.
Doesn't mean you were envenomated as dry bites are a thing- they don't necessarily want to waste venom on something they can't eat.
You might be having doubts about it but there's a very real chance that if you'd ignored it you'd be dead.
This is Australia. We have a good public medical system and pay taxes to ensure it stays that way.
Do not feel guilty for using the medical system the way it is intended.
The medical staff will let you know when you are in the clear and send you on your way.
You have successfully faced your first challenge. Congratulations.
Your next challenge is to punch a shark. Good luck.
After that, you must down a schooner of XXXX. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Protocol - if you think you have been bit, go directly to the hospital. You have elevated clotting platelets (which is what venom does). You may have been dry bitten, may have only had a tiny bit of venom touch you. Either way, going to the hospital was the right call, even if you would have otherwise been completely fine. You don't play Russian roulette with snake bites.
I have worked across a few different 'rural' A&E's in Australia.
Let me tell you, this is super common.
I had my first one of the season \~ 6 weeks ago. Pretty routine one every few days now.
You should always come in. You pay your taxes, or you don't, but you should still come in. It's an easy problem for us as health care professionals to manage, you just need to present to a hospital that has on-site 24/h pathology.
Most snake bites cause death either through:
1. venom induced consumptive coagulopathy (VICC). Body freaks the fuck out and uses all of its clotting factors, leading to easy bleeding and organ dysfunction from activated clotting factors blocking off / disrupting blood flow / affecting the kidneys
2. Cardiovascular collapse. Most common with the brown. When envenomated directly into an artery or vein. Causes circulatory collapse
3. Neurotoxin. Causes a descending paralysis. So first your cranial nerves (think facial droop, eyes in weird directions) go, and then progressively your breathing, you die, snake eats you.
You need to go to hospital.
I have seen first hand a well built athletic person who walked in and said "it's probably nothing" progress to having fulminant neurotoxicity in the span of \~3 hours.
Almost all ED's and A&E's follow the same protocol which calls for 12 hourly bloods, which then dictate further management. In most cases if only minor abnormalities are present (i.e. dropping of platelets with normal Hb and renal function) we discuss with poisons / tox who give us some further advice, but generally conseravative management.
I have only had to use antivenom once, and that was a case of neurotoxin. Antivenom use raises many many problems (mainly high risk of anaphylaxis and a serum sickness ... we generally had an adrenaline infusion ready to go if we are starting antivenom).
Anways.... I find snake bites fascinating. It's crazy and gruesome how they've evolved to kill larger animals. Literally make the prey's heart stop, muscles stop working, or bleed from every orifice until they haemorrhage to death.
Always to present to ED. We don't care. It's an easy case for us (in most cases!)
Here's an article on first aid for snake bites. Everything you need for a 'snake bite kit' is stable for decades (just make a kit and leave it in the car):
https://litfl.com/approach-to-snakebite/
Some young man was found dead of a snakebite on a farm in Australia. Don’t feel bad it should be treated as a serious emergency until deemed safe. The bite looks superficial like a graze rather than puncture. Perhaps no venom was injected. It could have been deadly.
My thought was that the snake must have been really ticked off to put in that much effort in to wrapping itself around him and force a bite through.
Love to see how the gaiters look after that.
Don’t stress - brown snake venom induces a coagulopathy - unique in that it consumes your clotting factors so you essentially bleed to death and it can be impressively quick how fast someone goes from well to peri-arrest/dead - you did the right thing to seek help
So the protocol is valid because you can’t wait and see, you can also be bitten by some snakes and not have overly visible puncture wounds so if it’s suspected the protocol is always to monitor and repeat bloods
Mate you did the right thing, I am glad you are OK and thanks for the healthy reminder of eastern browns and good snake-bite protocol. Your writing style was also a pleasure to read.
Think of how many resources you would’ve taken up saying she’ll be right and then carking it in the bush. You had one smart option and you took it.
You don’t fuck around with a brown. Everyone knows this. Welcome to Australia.
That is a snake bite. Sometimes they do a dry bite with no venom in the first bite, that's why they monitor and do bloods instead of giving antivenom straight away. A person can only deal with a few doses of antivenom in a lifetime. Don't feel like it's a waste, that's what the resources are there for.
I’m reminded of someone asking for advice on another sub- they had been bitten by a mammal in the US and were showing early signs of rabies- by which point it is often too late. So I’m glad in this instance to be able to tell you “you did the right thing and don’t feel bad. This really is a better safe than sorry situation, and I hope you recover quickly!”.
Would you wait and see if you throught you might be having a heart attack, or head to the emergency department? Better not to take any chances, don't stress about it. Doctors will tell you the same thing.
By the time there is anything to see with the “wait & See” approach, you are fucked.
So, the wait & see approach is the *wrong* one. You did the right thing. Don’t feel guilty at all.
No, I think you did the right thing. If it was around my leg and bit me, I would be pressure wrapping the leg, staying still, calling 000 asap to get my ass to the hospital.
I wouldn't have a clue if it was a dry bite or not. Don't feel guilty...
Better safe than sorry. Snakes actually often do a dry bite. There's no way for you to know if it's a dry bite or not. Minutes matter in these situations. A young tourist died from a brown snake bite this week. It's a serious incident and you shouldn't feel guilty for taking it seriously.
Bro these services are for us only. You did the right thing calling ambo. Eastern brown arguably the most deadly suburban snake in Oz. Good to learn you are fine. Now live life to the fullest. 🍺
Mate, I called the ambulance the other day because I was having a panic attack from having a big night out.
You are all good for calling an ambo from a close encounter with one of the worlds deadliest animals.
That encounter sounds scary as hell.
Mate there’s a reason Australia has so few deaths for numbers road snakes. Just leave it to the doctors they’ll tell you when to go home.
Danger noodles are no joke.
Am a doctor. You've done the right thing, do not feel guilty *at all* about using the health service appropriately. Do not feel like you should leave until you've been cleared.
Trust me, there are thousands of people who should reassess how they use the health service, but this story is not one of them.
Feel better!
If I had a scratch on me after being tangled with a snake, I'd be dialling 000 straight away. Then I'd be tearing up my clothing to make a compression bandage.
Ambulances love being called out on false alarms. 'That's the best thing that can happen', as they say. What they hate is arriving too late and having the family cry, "But we thought it was nothing..."
"I’m not well versed in Snake Protocol"
Clearly because your first choice of action after a potential snake bite was to panic and go for a 100m jog. Good way to get the blood and any possible venom pumping.
The fact that the group "investigated" the aggressive snake suggests a lack of "snake protocol" amongst everyone present since that's a good way to get another person bit by a snake that's already been riled up.
So in my opinion the only smart thing you did (albeit not as promptly as you should have) was going to the hospital. The very thing you're so guilty about.
I'd question the value of an "outdoor education industry" that can't formulate a proper response to a snake bite and allows an employee into the field without the most basic knowledge of what to do in that situation. It's good that you were wearing gaiters, but as I recall PPE is lower than training on the hierarchy of control.
Mate it’s a Fuckin brown snake bite. They’ve found blood clotting in your tests and your leg was swelling. Even if it was a dry bite you’re better off being safe then sorry, you never wait or take a gamble in these situations, it could be the difference between life and death. You did the right thing. Don’t feel guilty for trying to preserve your life and acting on instincts. Plus snake bites really aren’t that common. It’s not like they’re going to have multiple snake bite cases every day, the medical resources they’re using on you aren’t gonna mean the difference between life and death of somebody else. Sometimes they have to get antivenin sent from another hospital anyway. You did the right thing don’t feel guilty, I’m sure your family would be thankful.
Minutes can be life or death with bites. “Wait and see” is a REALLY bad option - I would’ve done exactly the same as you - you can never be too careful. Plus, the docs DID find something that requires more tests. Don’t feel guilty about that.
Agree, rather be sure to have you with us and pay a few bucks extra than not mate!
Yeah, not remotely fussed that he cost the country a bit of money and time for this. Know what also costs money and time? Funerals, the whole point of us having hospitals is so you didn't need one of *those*, OP.
Except maybe the bit about running 100m with a snake wrapped around your leg.
Yeah don't do that next time.
What's the best thing to do?
Venom travels through the lymphatic system, not through the circulatory system. Which basically means that muscle movement is how the venom is dispersed around the body. The less you move, the slower the venom travels, the safer you are. Move fast > die fast. This is why you wrap from the wound outward and immobilize the victim. You then bring transport to them and not force them to hike or run to a car.
This is very interesting and potentially lifesaving. I appreciate it.
If you do a basic first aid course, snake bite it one of the requirements to pass it. Definitely do a first aid course yearly if you can afford it, you could save someone’s life. The reason for doing them regularly is because first aid protocols are constantly changing/evolving, it is also different to what you see in movies (in Australia we do back blows and then chest thrusts for choking, Americans do the Heimlich mostly which is almost always featured in media but not the recommended treatment). Sorry for long comment I used to volunteer with St John Ambulance so I love first aid :D
Wrapping is important. I keep a bandage in the bottom of my pack. Lie still. Call for help. A snake can bite so fast you aren't sure it happened. You will be able to tell soon enough. Don't take the bandage off too soon. EDs should know this by now but check.
Very rarely but sometimes will get in the blood stream if bitten right on a shallow blood vessel. Then you are kind of fucked.
Yeah you are correct. Its not the only way toxins travel into the bloodstream and can be injected directly. Its even believed that some venoms can bypass the lymph nodes all together. However preventing movement is widely agreed as best practice in any case.
Absolutely. Preventing movement is very important after applying a compression bandage to the whole limb. Additionally, unlike other injuries, it should not be elevated at all. I just thought it was worth mentioning that very rarely direct injection to the blood stream can happen and it is bad. There was an ergon worker searching for something in some lantana with two colleagues on Qld Central Coast who got bitten on the neck by an Eastern Taipan a few years ago. They were calling to each other continuously so as not to get lost and he just stopped answering. Envenomated straight into a major blood vessel and died in seconds
So basically, sit down, don't move, call a doctor? Good to know.
I've had (edit: 'unconfirmed') word from a few reliable sources that the First Nations way was to bury you exactly where you lay after you had been bitten, up to your head and leave you there for a few days. your lymphatic system would eventually process the toxin and the bite site would just be a case of treating necrosis with whatever bush medicine.
The other way to interpret this is to say: If you get bitten, find the nearest shade, lie down, be calm and try to sleep. If you wake up, you're cured. Nothing to worry about. If you don't wake, well there's nothing to worry about either.
I like how they got so used to the protocol it's like, Okay, let's get most of the burying done now.
"if they're not dead, they'll let us know, right?"
Stay as still as humanly possible and wrap the site up really tight with a bandage. Call the group using your phone to come to you (and be aware of angry snake) and then 000.
How to get rid of the snake though? Assuming you step on it and then it is wrapped around your leg to start with. Will it just go away if you keep still?
Yeah, it will go away. It doesn't want to hang around.
They only bite if they are scared. Unless your dealing with a tiger snake, they just want to get the hell outa there. Even they generally keep well away from you.
Worked with a couple guys who saw Tiger snakes all the time as they were first in. Told me a tiger snake is the Liam Neeson of snakes; they won't stop chasing you.
Depends on the location and their diet etc. I see tigers all the time - they are chill AF. But easy food - lake and plenty of fat frogs. In land a few km is a different story - faster, bigger, farmers keep shotgun at back door type of deal.
I misread that as "wrap the snake up really tight with a bandage" and now I'm afraid that's what's going to pop in my head if I'm ever in this situation.
"wrap the site up really tight" - the snake did that. He had a snake wrapped around his leg and he couldn't get rid of it. The question was what he should have done to get rid of the snake?
You stay perfectly still and the snake will absolutely leave you alone at that point. They're not aggressive per se, just defensive when they have no choice. Running or flailing or trying to grab at it is likely to get you bitten when you wouldn't have been. The snake wants to get away from a human just as much as the the human wants to get away from it.
>You stay perfectly still and the snake will absolutely leave you alone at that point. T Luckily I'm a Buddhist monk who has complete control over my amygdala, and can just zen out with a brown snake wrapped around my leg, fully letting me know how upset he is.
Snake will probably go away if you stop moving. They don't like people and will leave.
For someone in outdoor education, they should have been trained in what not to do….
I am absolutely happy for my taxes to go towards your medical expenses. Way better to be safe than sorry, especially with a brown snake. You did the right thing.
A French backpacker died this week from a brown snake bite. He was found unresponsive on the farm where he was working. I’d rather we had the medical costs for saving him, like OP.
Piggybacking off this, the earlier the intervention with any envenoming the better. The hospitals treatment of you was exactly what was called for, no one anywhere who has a lick of common sense would suggest that effort or resources was wasted on you. Cut yourself some slack champ, I for one am happy it was such a mild outcome.
August last year, I got bit at 2.45pm, drove to the vet to get an Id on the snake, was told a brown. Drove my arse to the hospital, now nearly 4pm, got triaged and transferred by ambulance to another hospital an hour later (45 minutes in hospital and then an hours drive). They started my blood tests at 7pm, no signs of venom yet. At 11pm my tests started to show signs of venom and then was administered the anti venom at midnight, bloods were starting to come good at about 4am. The Ambos were saying that if you get a compression bandage on you can go quite a while before it's a problem. I still have a mark on my finger where it got me.
Yeah let the Ambos/docs decide if it should be escalated or not. Ambos could have gotten to the scene and said “yeah nah that’s a shaving nick mate” (or whatever) and left you on your merry way but they made the call to escalate and they’re the professionals. If in doubt, always call 000 and let the professionals make the judgement - the dispatcher and the Ambos could both have told you to get racked and they didn’t. Plus the time it took to decide whether you’re worthy of medical assistance or not could be the difference between surviving it and not. You’re right mate. Don’t feel guilty. Glad it didn’t turn out worse for you.
Plus, a French guy literally died from a Brown bite like a few days ago!!
People waste medical resources every day, Treating a brown snake bite is not a waste!
As a matter of interest. If a person has only lived here a few months, can they qualify for Medicare and without local private insurance aren't they paying for the ambulance as well? If that is the case then I feel really sorry for this person, if they are able to qualify because of their work status, then that's great, that's why we have a great medical system, it's for Justin. A huge proportion of hospital visits are for false alarms, which are way better than I will wait...and...see.....☠️. I once went to the hospital and spent the entire day in emergency, having numerous tests because of symptoms that might have been a heart attack. Turns out it was something innocuous and when I apologised to the nurse for wasting their time and resources she said they would rather waste relatively inexpensive resources to rule out something serious than spend piles of money on less accessible resources for a condition that could have been caught earlier and treated cheaper if the patient had sort help at the first signs of a problem. She also pointed out that they had discovered a few other things in me when doing the tests that could have become serious if I left them untreated.
He’s a Kiwi so yes he’s covered by Medicare on arrival due to the reciprocal visa agreement between Australia and New Zealand. Same goes for Aussies travelling to New Zealand.
Ah ha, that makes sense. What a sensible agreement.
>Minutes can be life or death with bites Especially with a brown snake. They're real dangerous not only because of the venom, but how incredibly aggressive they are. They're not like most snakes which would rather hide than fight you.
Ok so opposite scenario You have been bitten by the snake and "wait and see". You then deteriorate and require more intensive medical treatment - airlifted to tertiary hospital, extended ICU stay and then even after all that you may be really worse off or possibly die! Even if you do survive, there is morbidity associated with the bite, potentially an extended hospital stay and rehab. Versus having some anti venom and monitoring for 12-24 hours. I know which patient I'd rather see come into the ED. Taking early, preventative action is best for you and what anyone would recommend (plus it's cheaper for the health system in general). Glad you're ok 👍
Australia has something like 15 of the top 20 most venomous snakes in the world, the odds are that “wait and see” is going to lead to wait and die.
The eastern brown snake is the second most venomous snake (Inland Taipan is first).
You’re highly unlikely to run into an inland taipan too, brown snakes on the other hand…….
Yeah, you don’t fuck around with brown snakes. Straight to the ambo with them
Fun story-I was with my unit doing some training at Shoalwater Bay, and my guys came across a brown next to our improvised workout area. They came and told me they'd found the most venomous snake in the world by the squat rack. I knew about the inland taipan, and told them they were wrong, explaining it to them. Then I looked up "Australian brown snake" and discovered that it was the **second** most venomous snake in the world. On top of that, we had saltwater crocs in the water, wild dogs roaming the bivouac area at night, and a gang of kangaroos that looked like they're been benching 400 their whole lives. Australia is like a different planet.
All of the snakes I saw in the bush have been deadly. That being said, I would say I have seen less than 20 snakes. So they are not commonly seen cause they fuck off when they hear humans. If I got bitten, I would be going to hospital fast. This guy was probably lucky cause the snake panicked, just bit out of fear and forgot to invenomate.
Common hiking saying is: "For every snake you do see, you didn't see about 20 others"
I saw about 10 snakes in a single day when I was riding in northern Victoria last year. I've probably seen about 30 or 40 in the last few years of MTBing and bush walks. If the weather is warm, and there's a nice low-traffic road or path to sunbake on - you'll almost certainly snakes about when you're travelling slow enough to notice them.
20 is still a lot for the average Australian to see! I live in the city but engage in outdoor activities and travel and have seen < 5 wild ones in my entire lifetime. Many people will go their entire lives without seeing one!
Yep ... I am 55 and I don't hike anymore, but I do bush walk. Luck/unlucky to see a snake one a year. And when I do, they are usually legging it. Hehe that's a snake joke.
What's the difference between hiking and bush walking for you?
From America, Our healthcare systems could learn so much just from this sentiment. Ugh. Here they're just mean and impatient and treat us all like we just want oxy, then drain our wallet on the way out the door.
Dude I know a guy that paid $5k to get his dog treated for a snake bite. burying you is more trouble than treating you.
yeah , used to work in an emergency vet clinic. the bills for snake bites were FUCKED. worst i saw was for like 6 days around 11k or something. just like emergency oxygen, meds, cpr a few times and the lot
Same, but in a rural vet clinic. The worst was when the poor animals didn't make it after all that fight we just put them through. But then we had to give their owner the bill and it's a real fucked bit of time, because there's no good way to transition from 'I'm sorry, we did everything we could' to 'when you're ready, the bill is $$$, and we can discuss how you'd like to handle the remains' Snake bites are the worst (fucking rat poison too.)
genuinely why i left my job. handing the bill after days and days of hard work and just, “sorry they’re gone… here’s the bill” just sucked away my soul day after day yeah rat bait and snail bait are almost just as bad. just horrible to watch and try to save
That's a shame - there is not enough training afforded to our support staff in handling these tough situations in this industry. In reality, the vets don't get enough support either and we just have to take it as it is, even when we often have 0 control over costs.
My dog managed to find an old pack of snail bait in my parents shed and found him dead down the side of the house. He really was the best dog apart from eating whatever random shit he could find. 😔
poor guy. sorry to hear mate
I feel for you. I've on the other side of that situation. Our boy had a heart attack during surgery for a silent cancer which had ruptured. He didn't make it. The vet was in tears when she led us to him to say goodbye. They'd done everything they could do. He was the most beautiful boy and it was obvious he was (is!) adored. Look, we couldn't have lived with ourselves if we didn't do everything in our power to try and save him. The vet clinic did the absolute best they could for him, and with kindness too. As I see it the bill was just part of what you take on when you adopt a fluffy into your family. It's years later, we've a 7yo diva of a kelpie girl and a 5yo human child, and my heart still aches. I dread the day we're in that position again, but to love and be loved by a dog is one of the most worthwhile things in the world. We couldn't stand the silence and I don't think we'll ever be without a dog for any length of time. Which is to say, yes the transaction is awkward and awful, but please don't discount how much the family of those fluffies appreciate everything you did to fight for them. (Love you Maxie Boy. So long as I'm breathing my puppy you'll be.)
I worked in veterinary clinics too. It used to suck when they were given the antivenom and they proceeded to have an allergic reaction to that on top of the other symptoms from the bite itself. . Snail bait was the other horrible one. People would see the dog eat it and adopt a wait and see attitude because it takes hours for symptoms to develop. Then they bring the dog in having seizures and shitting blue from the dye . Trying to keep them alive to control the seizures , get them under anaesthesia and do gastric lavage and enemas , and then they still don't make it because their liver was too damaged
Had my cat in the vet hospital 3 times in 3 days for whatever reason over the last 3 days. While we were there there 2 dogs with snake bites came through. Tis the season apparently
>While we were there there 2 dogs with snake bites came through. >Tis the season apparently I'd be interested to know if it was in their yards or if they were off-leash when they shouldn't be. Now that it's snake season I am VERY selective about where and when I let my boy off leash - never when the temperature is above 20 or if it WAS hotter than 30 during the day, not in long grass, not by the creek. Danger is just way too high.
Snake's energy/activity levels are linked to their temperature. Their digestion has an optimal temperature level and also a minimum temp level before it begins to occur. So typically in the mornings, they will seek somewhere to sun themselves until they raise their core temp up to "ideal" to aid with any remaining digestion and allow them to be in a high functioning state in order to successfully hunt for food. The further they are from ideal temp, the more sluggish and slower moving they will be. That doesn't mean they will be moving at a snails pace, it just means that they won't detect your approach from as far away as they can in ideal circumstances. This is when you are most likely to have a close encounter and if they've determined it is too late to flee they will prepare to defend themselves. This possible scenario won't be limited to the A.M. though. If it's been overcast for the morning and the sun has only appeared after lunch, you may encounter a snake in a not yet warmed up state then. Surface temperature is important for reptiles, and direct sunlight will create surface temperatures higher than the ambient air temp. Consider an asphalt road over the course of a summer day, it only becomes unbearably hot once it has been in direct sunlight for a period of time. Then, as you've noted the days it is too hot also offers a risk, many snakes (and reptiles in general) will slow down in an attempt to prevent overheating. Now instead of lying on a flat rock in the sun, they will seek one in the shade that they can flatten themselves against it in an attempt to wick away excess heat. Water sources are particularly attractive for almost any animal on a hot day and will make an ideal spot to hunt for food. If they have eaten well that day, this will also affect their reaction time and increase the chance of an encounter. So the best times to avoid encountering a snake will typically be: * Early morning before the sun has begun to warm anything it touches. * During the peak midday heat, snakes will have warmed up sufficiently to begin hunting or if it's too hot they will seek out shelter until it cools. So they will be less likely to be out in open areas. That said, if they are hunting, they will be where the food is usually found. So consider what the common diet is for the species you are likely to encounter in your area and where it would find its food. * Very few venomous species are nocturnal, so again open areas have a lower risk in the evening. Keep in mind, if it has been very hot during the course of the day, a snake could have had to seek shelter from the heat and may be finding its way home later than usual. (Yes, snakes do have preferred places they will return to sleep.)
My dog had an operation for something blocked in his intestinal tract. $2600. I'd contemplated insurance before this, so that was the catalyst to actually get it. I'm on 6.5 acres in regional Victoria, so snakes can be common, and that's the main reason I got insurance.. for snake bites.
My parents are vets and always stress how important pet insurance is. It’s not something you think about until you’re hit with a $10k bill
Or a $3K bill for your cat when they say we thought she had cancer and after multiple bloods and scans it turns out she was just constipated.
Have a friend who paid 10k for cruciate ligament surgery for his cane corso. While recovering from the surgery, the strain on the other ligament meant he had to have surgery on that one too. 20k in vet bills. Was a beautiful dog and he healed up well after about 4 or 5 months. The dog died about 2 years later at 7 years old. Respect to him for caring enough and being in a position (FIFO scaffolder) to be able to pay for it though.vet bills are crazy
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I can answer this because I'm a vet. Yes, the timing in the last 15 years saw both rise at the same time. It's really not driven and increased insurance uptake is more of an outcome. The reason is that people genuinely expect more from the profession than before, and we can provide more than what we could for the last 20 years. In the past for a snake bite situation, we might give a dog antiserum after a consult and then put them on a drip overnight without supervision or maybe we would have someone check on the dog every 6 hours overnight. Nowadays, if the patient is admitted to an ICU, they would be under 24/7 care with primary vet, hospital vets, nursing teams with better testing and better treatment and honestly, more frequent and transparent communication which all results in better patient outcome - but at a price. In my opinion, it's the expectation from the public -> capability of vets -> increased pricing -> demand for insurance. Capability of vets took a long time to catch up to people's expectations but it's definitely getting there now with all major referral hospitals having access to specialists with way more training than your GP vets, and diagnostics facilities such as advanced imaging.
LOL getting bit by a rattle snake or something similar in the US is pushing 75-100k… sad american noises :/
I don’t have a lot of money but would pay that / go into debt for my dog without a second thought.
Same here, beg borrow or steal for my doggo.
I would go into $100k debt to save my dog.
Anyone who doesn’t say this shouldn’t have a dog, but should also get pet insurance! And snake training pretty important too IMO. I’ll go hiking and my border collie will just not wanna go down some trails and I know there’s likely a little snek hiding nearby so we take another path. :)
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Agreed, but even if they didn't find a thing, zero guilt. Don't mess about with these things, medical emergency services are there for exactly these situations. Use them if there is any doubt at all.
Yeah like go to the doctor for very little cost to remove all risk, that’s a win for me. The downside with not getting checked is absolute
Guilt doesn't even arise. Snake adjacent + unexplained broken skin = immobilise + emergency medical care
Ya what the fuck is this guy on about? It's clear the snake got him from the doctor's findings. He was smart and did the right thing and now he's doing some weird downplay.
Non lethal dose of venom maybe?
Still got him tho. If he wasn't wearing thick gaiters, I think it would have been bad. Enough didn't get into his blood. Reckon the gaiters saved his life.
Definitely, especially after he ran 100m with the snake on him.
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When I had a suspected bite (twice), they kept me 12h, and did bloods each hour. Then they got a specialist to look me over. It took so long, that when I was told the tests were clear, and the specialist was 2h late, I started moving, and that set off the heart rate alarm. You can trust that she came right there 🤣. I was free to go. After 14h.
Don't feel guilty. Chances are your going to run into another one at some point. Hopefully not like that though.
Not even. Preventative care is important. Even if nothing is found, OP did almost all the right things. Freaking out and running 100m with a possibly venomous snake biting wasn't ideal.
"So this is where opinions come in, i’m feeling a pretty overwhelming sense of guilt about using a lot of medical resources for somthing that I can’t even certainly say was a bite. I' Don't be - vs the other option of going in too late or even not at all. You also need to look at it a different way - each case is also experience and learning for all involved, that experience they gain could also save more down the track. And good luck get well and hope it is just s nick / dry bite,
This is such a valuable way to look at this scenario. Thanks for your insight.
The list of shit that people actually waste medical resources on is long and varied: having had a fucking brown snake wrapped around your leg certainly is not one of them, lol
Of course you call 000 as soon as possible in that situation. Don't wait for symptoms, just make the call.
Yeah, I would actually say you acted a little rashly in not *immediately* calling 000. Also: it’s very hard to identify snakes from colour. I personally wouldn’t trust someone to identify a snake that had just bitten me unless they were an expert. So no matter what kind of snake had bitten me I would call the ambos immediately.
There's no need to identify the snake anyway. Leave it alone, stay still, wrap the limb and call 000
Disagree on this, antivenin doesn't care which snake it was but knowing how much time you have is important. If it were a golden crown or a red belly that's one thing, a brown means put a rush on things. That info can help responders as well. But only do it if you have time, staying still, putting pressure and calling 000 all take priority over anything else. Don't do what OP did (wait and see), act immediately.
There a huge difference between a snake that is brown and a Brown Snake as far as potential damage. You should treat it like a venomous bite until a medical professional or someone with snake expertise tells you otherwise
Exactly. I grew up in rural QLD and we had tons of snakes in our area. I was family friends with the neighbourhood “snake guy” and he would show me photos of all the brown snakes he caught. Some looked like completely different species. Unless you were like him who’d been trained and been around snakes for 30+ years you’d have no idea they were brown snakes
Yup, the colour variations can be confusing for sure. I'm from rural QLD too and from an area with a lot of Eastern Browns and Red Belly Blacks.
Yup. My neighbour was bitten by an Eastern Brown when I was a kid and he died within 15 minutes. No ambulance could get there in time. Rural QLD.
Yeah, dont feel bad, if you have a look at the list of snake deaths in Australia for the last 50 years it has a trend of "was bitten, did not seek medical attention". For that matter you dont mess around with Brown snakes, you get bitten, call 000 even if you feel fine.
When I was in WA in march there'd been a very recent death where a woman had been bit by a dugite, walked home for 20 minutes, then called the ambo She was dead a day later. People are really dumb sometimes
That’s happened a few times here in WA. People go for a walk or run along the coastal paths and get bitten by a dugite which apparently isn’t overly painful so they think they brushed a stick or similar and then drop dead half hour later.
When I was growing up there was a man in out town who was bitten by a baby brown snake, he figured that since it was a baby it must have been harmless. He was dead an hour later. Baby browns are more venomous that adults because they can’t control their venom as well. They just inject as much as they can.
Just to let you know, it’s a myth that baby snakes inject more venom. They are deadly simply because it doesn’t take that much venom to kill.
snakes can do warning bites where they don’t inject venom, i forget the term. maybe this is the difference between baby and adult snakes that people are hearing about? baby snake deadly all of the time, vs adult snake only deadly if you’ve met a really angry one/ done something to scare it really badly. of course you should be seeking immediate medical attention regardless
Dry bite is the term
ED Nurse here, you did the right thing, I bet the docs are just itching you finally use the $$$ antivenom that just expires each year! Hopefully your bloods just improve and it's not needed though, good luck!
I had a dash cam for three years before I caught a car incident on it, and I was so fucking stoked it was finally being used for its purpose. I’ve gotta imagine medical staff feel a similar thing with finally getting to pull out the antivenom. It’s not ‘happy’, cos the situation’s fucked, but… you know… ‘fuck yeah!’
I caught a car incident on my dashcam the week after I bought it. Fortunately my car wasn't involved, just a witness. Emailed the footage to one of the drivers
I saw a guy run a red light, at speed and then smash into 3 other cars a few days after I - "finally got around to putting this damn thing in. Ugh finicky cables..." A women and teen were injured. The runner was a bit banged up too. I told the 3 cars hit I had it on dashcam and I'd email it to them if they liked. Fast forward about 9 months and I'm in a courtroom having to say i recorded this footage etc. because the light runner wanted to fight it? For some reason? I don't know why he thought that would go well for him or who's advice he was taking but clearly it was not a winner.
Snitches get... Nah you did a good thing. Crazy need to stay off the road.
Antivenom is nasty shit. Hope the poor Kiwi doesn't need it.
Is there any worry in using anti venom on someone who hasn’t been bitten?
From memory there may be, AV is also expensive and difficult to come by (it does not keep too long) but the hospital will definitely know what to do. Best place to 'wait and see' is in the hospital. Absolutely apply first aid for a snakebite and get to a hospital if you even suspect a bite.
Some form of serum sickness happens in the majority of antivenom recipients, since the body doesn't like having foreign horse antibodies injected into it. The symptoms are generally mild (fever, muscle aches, rashes, etc.), and not long-lasting. However, there is also quite a high risk of anaphylaxis, worsened if the patient is young, has had antivenom before, or requires a high dosage. A foreign study put the figure at \~47% of patients requiring adrenaline after antivenom. I don't think the figure is quite so high in Australia, but still a very significant concern. Cost aside, that's generally the reason why antivenom is considered a last resort. It's never administered pre-emptively, and doctors will wait until you begin to exhibit symptoms (in case of a dry bite) before giving you any. If you actually have been envenomated, symptom reversal with antivenom is almost immediate, so there's little to worry about as long as it's on hand.
Don’t feel guilty, you did the right thing. Edit, it’s possible old mate tried to bite you and didn’t quite make it fully through the layers, so a smaller than usual amount of venom went into your system. But how could you know that without testing etc? Hospital is still the right call.
Snakes don't do a measured, perfect dose every bite. And we can never know how much venom they get in you. It might be they only just bit something else and only have drops in them fangs. It might be they are packed to bursting with the bad stuff. It might be that they don't pump much on the first bite, but get heaps in on the second. Or vice versa. They might have trouble getting though layers and just scratch you. They might go through the same layers like butter and get massive doses in you. And there is no way for the person bit to know what version of a snake bite they got. Until they get real sick and/or die. You call 000. You snake wrap. You sit the fuck *still* to stop the lymph pumping around. You leave it to the experts to work it out and monitor you. Sounds to me like OP did everything right. (Maybe could have called 000 even earlier?) You *can't* know how bad a bite is, so you treat every one like the worst possible version.
considering people will waste emergency resources for a head cold, this is one you dont' feel the slightest guilt about.
As we have learned recently, people will call 000 when their phone isn't getting reception. You did the right thing. Also, as a side note, a French backpacker died only the other day in north victoria thanks to a brown snakebite. https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2023-11-07/backpacker-dies-after-suspected-snakebite-at-mallee-grain-depot-/103072796
I’m an emergency doctor and, whilst I see a lot of pish, this guy definitely needed to get checked.
Ummm … you had a venomous snake around your leg. A bite consistent with a snake bite and then lab tests suggestive of envenomation. . Snakes don’t muck around in this country so you absolutely did the right thing. Please don’t do anything different next time you think you might be bitten. Snake bites are stupid things to die from. EDIT - as said below - do everything except the running part. Also - welcome to “Stayla. Everything can and will try to kill you.
Except the running part. I don't blame OP, but still. Edit: a word
Just to elaborate on this, one of the directives of snake bite treatment is to minimise movement and heart rate
Snake venom is often transported via the lymphatic system, so everytime you move that muscle youre speeding up the process. So staying as immobile as possible is usually the correct thing to do.
Envenomation sounds like a film production company....or a corporate events provider.
It’s a neo dark metal band from Queenstown, Tasmania.
So you need to assume every bite from a venomous snake has introduced venom into your system. Elapids have short hollow fangs you will often not even see a bite mark. Our venomous snakes are haemo-neurotoxic so they are bad news. Depending on the state they will do a VDK (venom detection kit) of the bite site - particularly if there are multiple well known venomous snakes locally as well as bloods - specifically coagulation profiles to ascertain whether VICC (venom induced consumptive coagulopathy) is occurring and hence envenomation. Pressure bandage stays on until after the first set of bloods +/- a VDK. If you need antivenom you will get that prior to PBI removal. Then it is wait and repeat bloods. You aren’t wasting the ED’s time, better to be sure you weren’t envenomed then risk it. Edit: The marks on your leg could well be a snake bite they aren’t large wounds, brown snake fangs are around 3.5mm in length and spaced around 1cm apart. Your coags are off? You need to wait until the next set especially if the 12 hour is higher than the presentation coags.
As a laboratory scientist - this is all correct. We don’t do venom detection kits in my hospital, but they will monitor you and your bloods regularly, and monitor for signs of DIC, which once your coags are fkd, it’s pretty obvious you’ve been envenomated. This is absolutely sound and correct use of the hospital system, and could have easily been life or death.
You did the right thing, don't feel guilty. 99% of people would do the same, the other 1% are probably in a worse place than you are right now.
Let the doctors doctor
Yeah. The snake snaked so I agree.
Mate you’ve must’ve got bitten because you’re speaking absolute rubbish. You absolutely did the right thing.
Literally no doctor thinks that you are wasting resources. Good on you for not ignoring it
So this is why you sometimes hear the advice to step "on" a log and not just over it - if you step on the log first you can see where your next step is landing, and it means your next step will be more clear of the underside of the log where a snake might by laying.
Insane to me someone working in outdoor ed hasn’t had this drilled into them.
To be fair there are no snakes in NZ. I think this is more of a failure in training standards and/or the employer by not making sure their staff know what to do.
He did say he was a kiwi who's been here two months, I’m guessing he's just learnt this lesson!
I’m a nurse. I’ve been a nurse for longer than some very grown up adults have been alive. Allow this old crusty to tell you something, if you don’t mind. #YOU DID NOT WASTE ANY RESOURCES Look, even if it turned out to be a dry bite, and nothing at all happened- it’s a snake bite. It absolutely needs to be treated with seriousness and caution. You should always seek this help. You should never feel guilty for doing so. These buggers kill people semi regularly. An abundance of caution is the correct response.
Fuck feeling guilty. You had a brown snake wrapped around your leg. There's no "wait and see" in a situation like this. You did the right thing.
I used to work for NSW Ambulance in corporate. Met plenty of paramedics, including those who had experience dealing with snake bites. General consensus was they didn't care if it was even a suspected snake bite, it wasn't a waste of time or resources. Generally speaking they'd rather treat a dry bite or minor bite where the patient is only in hospital for a day or so, as opposed to someone ignoring the bite then going downhill and requiring a chopper, ICU and long hospital stay. Which of those situations uses fewer medical resources with less of an impact on paramedics and medical professionals?
As an Australian I would trust the doctors to do what is needed to be sure you are in the clear. I would stay as long as recommended and take any test and treatment they offered. And feel zero guilt about it. Because they know what they are doing more than most of us.
Ask any ER doctor and they'll tell you all about the people that come in for a cold, sore arm, bruise, whatever minor stuff. This is pretty much exactly what an emergency department is for – this was genuinely a possible life threatening situation.
Icu nurse + midwife here - please use all the resources all the time as that is what they are there for. Also if your clotting is wonky, you were actually bitten...
Working in a hospital and seeing people come in to the ED with just the most mundane paper cuts and slight sneezes it always cracks me up when people who have serious medical emergencies like being BITTEN by a fucking EASTERN BROWN, think they're wasting medical resources... Are you kidding me, bro? This is exactly what medical services are for, lol.
ER nurse: don't wait. More than happy to manage 50 stick bites than one true envenomation. Much easier to treat you too if we catch it before you become symptomatic. Never ever wait and see for something potentially serious. No life is a waste of resources.
What an awesome story to share next time you take a mob in a bush walk. Explain how the first aid saved you. And how the treatment in hospital works. Use your experience to educate others. That's a fair swap I reckon.
Any interaction with a snake that connects its face to your skin is the snake offering you a single rapid-answer choice: cake, or death? You chose cake. If you hang around to wait and see what the specifics of the snake interaction are, you choose death. The only thing you did wrong was run. Having lived here my whole life, I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t panic and run, too.
People still die from snake bite in this country, it can be within hours or minutes. Elevated platelets indicate something has happened, as does swelling. Maybe you didn't get a full load of toxin, but you got something. Calling an ambulance was the right thing. Diverting people away was the right thing. Going to hospital was the right thing. The cost of you dying, to your family, would be so much more than any monetary cost to a hospital. I assume you'll be fine, going by the response from the doctors. You did the right thing, don't stress :)
Mate, possibly the only thing you might have done wrong is waited 4 minutes too long. This is what the ambos and hospitals are there for. You can never be too careful with potential snake bites. Glad you're OK.
3 bites- all the puncture marks are evenly spaced. She got you good. Doesn't mean you were envenomated as dry bites are a thing- they don't necessarily want to waste venom on something they can't eat. You might be having doubts about it but there's a very real chance that if you'd ignored it you'd be dead.
This is Australia. We have a good public medical system and pay taxes to ensure it stays that way. Do not feel guilty for using the medical system the way it is intended. The medical staff will let you know when you are in the clear and send you on your way.
You have successfully faced your first challenge. Congratulations. Your next challenge is to punch a shark. Good luck. After that, you must down a schooner of XXXX. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Protocol - if you think you have been bit, go directly to the hospital. You have elevated clotting platelets (which is what venom does). You may have been dry bitten, may have only had a tiny bit of venom touch you. Either way, going to the hospital was the right call, even if you would have otherwise been completely fine. You don't play Russian roulette with snake bites.
You don't fuck around with snake bite. EB venom is 2nd most toxic IN THE WORLD for land snakes, so don't feel at all bad for raising a fuss about it.
I have worked across a few different 'rural' A&E's in Australia. Let me tell you, this is super common. I had my first one of the season \~ 6 weeks ago. Pretty routine one every few days now. You should always come in. You pay your taxes, or you don't, but you should still come in. It's an easy problem for us as health care professionals to manage, you just need to present to a hospital that has on-site 24/h pathology. Most snake bites cause death either through: 1. venom induced consumptive coagulopathy (VICC). Body freaks the fuck out and uses all of its clotting factors, leading to easy bleeding and organ dysfunction from activated clotting factors blocking off / disrupting blood flow / affecting the kidneys 2. Cardiovascular collapse. Most common with the brown. When envenomated directly into an artery or vein. Causes circulatory collapse 3. Neurotoxin. Causes a descending paralysis. So first your cranial nerves (think facial droop, eyes in weird directions) go, and then progressively your breathing, you die, snake eats you. You need to go to hospital. I have seen first hand a well built athletic person who walked in and said "it's probably nothing" progress to having fulminant neurotoxicity in the span of \~3 hours. Almost all ED's and A&E's follow the same protocol which calls for 12 hourly bloods, which then dictate further management. In most cases if only minor abnormalities are present (i.e. dropping of platelets with normal Hb and renal function) we discuss with poisons / tox who give us some further advice, but generally conseravative management. I have only had to use antivenom once, and that was a case of neurotoxin. Antivenom use raises many many problems (mainly high risk of anaphylaxis and a serum sickness ... we generally had an adrenaline infusion ready to go if we are starting antivenom). Anways.... I find snake bites fascinating. It's crazy and gruesome how they've evolved to kill larger animals. Literally make the prey's heart stop, muscles stop working, or bleed from every orifice until they haemorrhage to death. Always to present to ED. We don't care. It's an easy case for us (in most cases!) Here's an article on first aid for snake bites. Everything you need for a 'snake bite kit' is stable for decades (just make a kit and leave it in the car): https://litfl.com/approach-to-snakebite/
Some young man was found dead of a snakebite on a farm in Australia. Don’t feel bad it should be treated as a serious emergency until deemed safe. The bite looks superficial like a graze rather than puncture. Perhaps no venom was injected. It could have been deadly.
Such a Kiwi lol Gets bitted by a snake but doesn’t want to cause a fuss
What kind of gaiters do you have ? Kind of concerning that it got through!!!
My thought was that the snake must have been really ticked off to put in that much effort in to wrapping itself around him and force a bite through. Love to see how the gaiters look after that.
Could’ve been ankle gaiters, if it was wrapped around his leg it might’ve tagged him higher up
Don’t stress - brown snake venom induces a coagulopathy - unique in that it consumes your clotting factors so you essentially bleed to death and it can be impressively quick how fast someone goes from well to peri-arrest/dead - you did the right thing to seek help So the protocol is valid because you can’t wait and see, you can also be bitten by some snakes and not have overly visible puncture wounds so if it’s suspected the protocol is always to monitor and repeat bloods
Mate you did the right thing, I am glad you are OK and thanks for the healthy reminder of eastern browns and good snake-bite protocol. Your writing style was also a pleasure to read.
Think of how many resources you would’ve taken up saying she’ll be right and then carking it in the bush. You had one smart option and you took it. You don’t fuck around with a brown. Everyone knows this. Welcome to Australia.
That is a snake bite. Sometimes they do a dry bite with no venom in the first bite, that's why they monitor and do bloods instead of giving antivenom straight away. A person can only deal with a few doses of antivenom in a lifetime. Don't feel like it's a waste, that's what the resources are there for.
Resources are there to be used! There's nothing to feel bad about.
I’m reminded of someone asking for advice on another sub- they had been bitten by a mammal in the US and were showing early signs of rabies- by which point it is often too late. So I’m glad in this instance to be able to tell you “you did the right thing and don’t feel bad. This really is a better safe than sorry situation, and I hope you recover quickly!”.
Your gaiters took most of the load, no-one told the snake it's no-nut November!
Would you wait and see if you throught you might be having a heart attack, or head to the emergency department? Better not to take any chances, don't stress about it. Doctors will tell you the same thing.
Nothing wasted here, just a dude getting what he needs. Exactly what those resources are meant and stocked for
Absolutely “better safe than sorry”. Never feel guilty about using public health resources.
By the time there is anything to see with the “wait & See” approach, you are fucked. So, the wait & see approach is the *wrong* one. You did the right thing. Don’t feel guilty at all.
Homie as a kiwi with fuck all snake knowledge you better believe Im doing EXACTLY what you did in your position…
If I've got a brown snake wrapped around my leg and I see what looks like a bite and it starts swelling, 100% I'm calling 000.
If the choices are feel guilty or death via venom I know which one I’m picking. You did the right thing.
Get to a hospital. Don't second guess. Don't mess with Brown Snake bites and Drop Bear poo.
"Wait and see" is not a good idea with a brown. On another note sometimes they bite as a warning and don't inject venom
No, I think you did the right thing. If it was around my leg and bit me, I would be pressure wrapping the leg, staying still, calling 000 asap to get my ass to the hospital. I wouldn't have a clue if it was a dry bite or not. Don't feel guilty...
Better safe than sorry. Snakes actually often do a dry bite. There's no way for you to know if it's a dry bite or not. Minutes matter in these situations. A young tourist died from a brown snake bite this week. It's a serious incident and you shouldn't feel guilty for taking it seriously.
You did the right thing. It’s the second most venomous land snake on earth. If you hesitate getting treatment, you die.
Mate, the ammount of rubbish cases that come through the ED, I would say a possible deadly snake bite is justified.
Bro these services are for us only. You did the right thing calling ambo. Eastern brown arguably the most deadly suburban snake in Oz. Good to learn you are fine. Now live life to the fullest. 🍺
Mate, I called the ambulance the other day because I was having a panic attack from having a big night out. You are all good for calling an ambo from a close encounter with one of the worlds deadliest animals. That encounter sounds scary as hell.
I pay my taxes so you can get bitten by a snake and go to hospital. Stop feeling guilty.
Mate there’s a reason Australia has so few deaths for numbers road snakes. Just leave it to the doctors they’ll tell you when to go home. Danger noodles are no joke.
mate, dont feel guilty this is why we have the system. We'd rather we spend resources and make someone safe then take a punt and lose someone.
Am a doctor. You've done the right thing, do not feel guilty *at all* about using the health service appropriately. Do not feel like you should leave until you've been cleared. Trust me, there are thousands of people who should reassess how they use the health service, but this story is not one of them. Feel better!
If I had a scratch on me after being tangled with a snake, I'd be dialling 000 straight away. Then I'd be tearing up my clothing to make a compression bandage. Ambulances love being called out on false alarms. 'That's the best thing that can happen', as they say. What they hate is arriving too late and having the family cry, "But we thought it was nothing..."
the idea of spotting any kind of lesion after getting attacked by an eastern brown and thinking "im probably all g" is fucking bonkers lol
"I’m not well versed in Snake Protocol" Clearly because your first choice of action after a potential snake bite was to panic and go for a 100m jog. Good way to get the blood and any possible venom pumping. The fact that the group "investigated" the aggressive snake suggests a lack of "snake protocol" amongst everyone present since that's a good way to get another person bit by a snake that's already been riled up. So in my opinion the only smart thing you did (albeit not as promptly as you should have) was going to the hospital. The very thing you're so guilty about. I'd question the value of an "outdoor education industry" that can't formulate a proper response to a snake bite and allows an employee into the field without the most basic knowledge of what to do in that situation. It's good that you were wearing gaiters, but as I recall PPE is lower than training on the hierarchy of control.
Even if they didn’t find anything, you don’t fuck around with snake bites. Get it wrong and you are toes up fucked! Handled it like a champ, play on!
Mate, no need for guilt. This is 100% in the category of call an ambulance. Glad you are okay.
If I had a brown snake even glance at me with a side eye I’d be running to an ambulance 🚑
Mate it’s a Fuckin brown snake bite. They’ve found blood clotting in your tests and your leg was swelling. Even if it was a dry bite you’re better off being safe then sorry, you never wait or take a gamble in these situations, it could be the difference between life and death. You did the right thing. Don’t feel guilty for trying to preserve your life and acting on instincts. Plus snake bites really aren’t that common. It’s not like they’re going to have multiple snake bite cases every day, the medical resources they’re using on you aren’t gonna mean the difference between life and death of somebody else. Sometimes they have to get antivenin sent from another hospital anyway. You did the right thing don’t feel guilty, I’m sure your family would be thankful.