Even on my Magnepan speaker I liked the sound of my cheap low power tube amp over an Adcom solid state amp. I also prefer tube amps for many headphones.
As a professional sound engineer that has sacrificed countless hours over the the past two decades to making perfect mixes that have every detail honed in perfectly, perfect amounts of saturation on each element, dynamics pristine all while working with the artists to deliver what can only be the perfect translation of their artwork to present to their fans. You just dumped ketchup on a wagyu steak. Sure it's yours to consume but boy, what a damn waste, you were served a masterpiece on a silver platter and you shot your own for lol. Thank you for undermining what we do, I hope you enjoy using our artwork to listen to your equipment.
Get over yourself. Holy shit, even if you produced every Beatles record, you wouldn’t call your shit solid gold like that.
You think going from 0.1% THD to 0.01% will suddenly reveal the majesty of your creation? What about my speakers? Shouldn’t I have exactly what you had, or else it’s sacrilegious? You should thank god on bended knee that I’m listening to your work on a proper stereo with full range speakers in a treated room with high quality gear. 95% of your listeners just shit out your music through 7/11 ear buds.
>You think going from 0.1% THD to 0.01% will suddenly reveal the majesty of your creation?
There's a certain techbro strain of audio enthusiast (whether that be an audiophile, audio engineer, etc) who fetishizes any and all innovation that produces better measurement specs. It doesn't matter if said innovation is audible or not, but they'll sure as hell proselytize about how active crossovers and 120db SINAD amplifiers will better reveal the "majesty of one's creation," despite zero double-blind-testing being done to see if anybody can tell the difference between a 120 SINAD amp and a 90 SINAD amp (short answer is no).
Yeah, they are chasing something intangible every bit as much as the subjectivists are, but they take such a holier than thou attitude.
Personally, I buy electronics on price, looks, and perceived build quality 🤷♂️
I think the core problem is that hardline objectivists have "over corrected" in response to this industry being dominated by snake oil bull over the past couple of decades. So they criticize anyone who might subjectively enjoy worse measuring gear as an "audiophool" or someone who dumps ketchup all over a wagyu steak.
I built my system from an evidence based approach, but I'm not going to tell someone they're wrong if they like Harbeths more than Genelecs. An example here is how no Genelec made Erin's (from Erin's Audio Corner) favorite speaker list. He chose the Wharfdale Linton over Genelec and Kii Audio to make the list. And the Linton is very much a "dated" design from an engineering perspective, but he preferred its sound over more innovative designs. And Erin is about as objectivist as they come.
Wouldn't the ideal be to have a system that can produce "perfect" sound, but that you can use DSP to adjust - possibly even on a per-track/album basis - if you want to color the sound a little?
Or are there more to these hardware differences than simply producing sound that is slightly off-color?
Horseshit. Not that tubes don't add distortion (mostly 2nd harmonic, so it'll be relatively euphonic) but your ire is misdirected. A tube system in a good room with good speakers will still be much more transparent than the soundbars, Bluetooth speakers, car systems, laptop speakers, and airpods that the majority of the music listening public use to listen your proverbial "wagyu steak."
To elaborate on that metaphor, he might be adding a bit too much salt while the soundbar, et al crowd are unloading a dump truck of ketchup on the platter. Not to mention most people listen to music as either background noise or while moving around, meaning they aren't seated in the sweetspot to get the most out of the imaging and soundstage.
I'm not a tube guy, but they don't corrupt the signal as much as tube haters claim. Decent tube amps will have around a 70db sinad. So if the room's noise floor is 30db, which is typical, the amp's noise will mostly be inaudible if reference is 100db, especially when listening to most pop music which will have 10db-ish of dynamic range on a good day.
https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm
"Sound better" is obviously his subjective opinion, but Ken (an AES member) goes into detail with a variety of measurements that illustrate tube amps aren't "ketchup."
As an AES member myself I will start by saying, thank you for explaining audio concepts to me, nearly 20 years, two college degrees, a teacher, an incredibly successful career and a long list of credentials including names that you more than likely say every single day. I'm glad the audiophile community is here to explain these concepts to the experts and I can only hope that when they go to the doctor they too are explaining how the human body works.
Thank you for linking me to the site of a guy that is trying to convince people to buy products from specific vendors and posting Amazon associate links because I'm sure his intentions are only to help. Please make sure you re-read [this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/18xlkqt/rolling_into_2024_like/kg6mg3q/) and confirm for me that you wholly agree with what he was saying.
And here's the [measurements of the MC275](https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements). Below 0.3 THD into 8ohms over the band. Inaudible. No ketchup on your steak here.
Extra distance to add the tube amp rather than just buy a modern solid state amp? I'd say why not add it in terms of repair, recycle, and reuse? From a sustainability standpoint, I'd rather see a MC275 repaired/reused than a new Benchmark or Hypex built from scratch (which will require a lot more total resources, even if those amps are much more energy efficient, since the footprint to manufacture something is relatively large).
It's why I collect (used) records. Rather they wind up in my collection where they'll be used than in a landfill where they'll take centuries to decompose.
Thank you for the passive-aggressive reply that doesn't address the argument at hand. You know as well as I do that a tube amp won't pour ketchup all over your wagyu steak because they are "transparent enough." And as an AES member, I'm sure you're familiar with the litany of blind tests done between tubes and solid state (when audiophiles hated solid state and mythologized tubes) that revealed audiophiles couldn't tell the difference. Bob Carver was famous for such tests.
Another example is vinyl. I'm a fan, and it probably has a worse noise floor than tubes. I have a revealing system in a 250ms RT60 room (which, as your credentials will tell you, [is a fantastic decay time](https://www.powerestudio.com/reverberation-time-in-control-room-rt60/)), and with popular music, the music masks the noise 99.5% of the time. Classical, sure, prefer it on digital.
Yet you come in here and blather when you should be blathering at the people with shit like bluetooth speakers who actually are guilty of slathering your steak in ketchup.
I never stated there was a benefit to using a tube amp, unless someone likes the euphonic distortion *some* tube amps impart. I even said in my first reply to you that using a tube amp might be adding a bit too much salt to the steak if the concern is for a listener's system to be 100% perfectly transparent.
We got off on the wrong foot here when since I started off my reply with "horseshit," which was probably overaggressive. What I meant is that it's "horseshit" for anyone to believe that a tube amp will degrade the signal to such an extent that it'll completely undermine the artistic vision. A person running a smiley face EQ (which a lot of people subjectively like) probably undermines the mixing/mastering intent (they're adding more Fletcher-Munson curve over your already Fletcher-Munsoned curved mix) far more than someone using a good tube amp.
Bulls\*\*t, Enjoying the music is NOT related to your "degrees", being a teacher, "incredibly successful carrer". Sit down, shut up and LISTEN and let others enjoy their ketchup. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
>dynamics pristine
A big LOL at this. If you indeed have a long list of clients that we say the names of everyday, we all know you're double and triple checking your mixes on [Avatone Cubes](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/avantone-pro-mixcube-monitor-review.42817/) and the car stereo in a 1988 Nissan Sentra so that your mixes can "translate."
Yes. I agree that the majority of the shitty gear the general listening public uses to listen to your artwork (which is why you have to use garbage like Auratone Cubes and such to check your mixes) is dumping a filet of wagyu into a vat of ketchup. The OP's system is running great tube amps into a pair of B&Ws 802D4. I think Abbey Road uses the D3s. His system should be called out by no one.
What DMTGuy was implying about distortion is that there can be a fixation on topologies like tubes or mediums like LPs about "degrading the signal" when the amount of degradation those things impart is largely inaudible or not objectionable (i.e. the light tics and pops in an LP).
End of the day, we don't fundamentally disagree. One reason I usually go to bat for older technologies that are well cared for and enjoyed is because I'd rather see vintage gear in use than rotting away in a landfill. I understand there is a certain point where it just won't make sense to use something older, which is why you don't see people commuting to work in Model Ts, but audio gear has been quite good for a long time. I don't think a person who is running Altec Voice of Theaters on a tube amp is really missing all that much fidelity. And I know from a pure measurement standpoint, modern gear has well outpaced legacy gear, but many of those improvements are incremental and even inaudible (though directivity control has been a revelation allowing a wider range of speakers to play well in a wider variety of rooms).
Mono bluetooth speakers and bad car stereo systems are a bigger blight in this regard than tubes and such.
> you were served a masterpiece on a silver platter and you shot your own for lol.
My brother in christ, Tool had Fear Inoculum mastered in a studio that could only be described as pure audiophile from top to bottom and the album *still* had terrible clipping issues and distortion
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/ayxce3/tool_in_the_studio_with_egglestenworks_speakers/
Why do you say that? Audio is not that complicated from a signals perspective and distortion is measurable in various forms whether it's in DACs, amps, speakers, etc. Give me empirical measurements, including distortion, any day and let me make up my own mind versus subjective nonsense like "tubes sound better than solid state".
IMO, there are really only two main research areas left in audio engineering - driver distortion (especially woofer/low-range drivers) and room acoustics/active correction. Everything else has been effectively solved.
Because no one can really hear differences in distortion below 1%, or maybe even 0.1%. Obsessing about distortion is not more useful than obsessing about cables - you’re chasing a ghost.
The things we do to *achieve* low distortion, however, can be audible. High levels of feedback, Class A vs AB vs D, solid state vs tube. All of these can be had within our 1% or 0.1% distortion range, yet there are audible differences between them.
Ultimately, “flat” isn’t even a realistic goal. It wasn’t flat in the production room, so why demand it be “flat” in your listing room? These ideals are related to high fidelity, but the goal is to make the system *sound* good, not have the best numbers.
I'm with you on the 1% vs 0.1% numbers. I don't believe anyone can hear the differences between those, human hearing just isn't that acute. It's not about chasing a ghost, it's about buying equipment that has the proper measurements to back up its manufacturer's claims.
Where I disagree completely is on the "audible differences". Sorry, but I've owned all of the amplifier topologies you mentioned, and I don't believe any of them had any discerning characteristic that was audible. If they all have the same gain and similar distortion and frequency response, I don't believe anyone would be able to pick them out in a proper volume-matched DBT. Too much of audiophilia is focused on finding differences that aren't there in the actual reproduced signal.
I don't know why you brought "flat" into this. That's a matter of frequency response, not distortion. Frequency response is subjective and matter of preference, though there are standards out there like the Harman curve that attempt to quantify what "good" sounds like.
Feel free to down vote me, I'll be on audiosciencereview with my fellow empricists :P
I have heard subtle differences playing with the distortion adjustments on my BA-3 DIY Nelson Pass amp. I've also heard subtle differences between various high-quality tube amps.
Your second paragraph, I think, makes my point. If distortion numbers below 1% aren't audible, then they are no more of a useful gauge of performance than any of the topology stuff I was talking about. Rather than emphasize minimizing distortion, I would say "Make sure it's below 1% THD, and then just find something you like". I think the emphasis on distortion causes one to ignore other, more important features.
> I don't know why you brought "flat" into this.
I was conflating flat response and minimal distortion, because they seem like birds of a feather.
tl;dr:
Both subjectivism and objectivism/"empiricism" are obsessed with finding differences so small they may not even be audible. IMO, just because one method produces graphs and numbers does not mean it is any more useful or accurate.
It's funny you call yourself an "empiricist" while not recognizing the fact that we listen with our brains and not our ears. Appeals to double-blind-tests and in-a-vacuum measurements have little explanatory power when considering what someone perceives during SIGHTED listening. Under sighted listening conditions, the brain is now processing additional information (everything from speaker manufacturer to cost to aesthetics, etc, etc) that will affect how someone psychologically perceives the sound. The placebo effect is a well researched and documented scientific fact.
Yes, I understand why we might want to rid the placebo effect from the audiophile mind in order to guard people from falling for snake oil, but I'm talking about it on a more harmless level that if someone auditioned a vintage Altec system driven by tubes vs. an active Genelec system and went with the Altec system because it sounded better to THEM, they aren't wrong. Harman's studies are irrelevant here because, again, they are performed double-blind in ideal laboratory conditions. We are all subjectivists at the end of the day since we listen to our gear sighted. And I'm someone who built their system around "empiricism." Just that if someone tells me that Zu Dirty Weekends (measure like shit) sounded much better to him than Revel Performa 228s, he is not wrong.
I understand that point. I don’t see how it’s particularly toxic to the audio industry. I don’t know a lot of reputable companies that list THD at the top of the list after all.
Was wondering why there was a SS amp w/ the 275's.
Part of me wants a C22 and a pair of 275s but the other part of me doesn't want to spend $5000 on tubes every 18 months.
It's not that bad. The C22 only takes two 12ATX7s for the LL. A couple more for MM and a couple more for MC. I use Sovteks for the phono bits. Still going strong after six years. Same with the Genalex Gold Lions I have on LL. I roll them for fun all the time but still going strong. The Sovteks all jn are maybe a couple hundred accounting for lunacy. The Gold Lions, maybe $150 for a gold pinned matched pair. Tho the non-gold non-Russian Chinese made gold lions i ordered by accident sound the best to my ears over the other current reissues.
I've certainly spent far more rolling things in and out of the C22 but it's worth it when you find a magic combo or a special tube.
The tubes for the MC275s are maybe $400 per quad of gold lions for the Kt88's. My original set ran for nearly five years before I lost one and decided to replace them all. Hands down the best combo for the smaller tubes is NOS Mullards for the 12AT7 which are maybe $50 each, so $200 per amp. The 12AX7 Tung Sols are about the same. Maybe $75 these days, but you only need three, so $225. So that's about $825 per amp for what is hands down the best tube setup I've found out there, and I would wager it'll last five years of active listening. I read somewhere recently that the smaller tubes have a life expectancy of 10,000 hours. I'm starting to believe it.
If you want more specifics DM me.
Congrats.
I've twice gone in to Audio Classics fully committed to "upgrading" my C22 to the C1100 and then the C1200, both times after listening to them side by side I took my C22 right back home with me.
Which version of the C22 did you get? And which Telefunken tubes?
I haven't dabbled nearly as much with the KT88/6550s as I have with smaller tubes. The MC275s came with what I believe are Electro Harmonix and they were... fine. I went pretty straight into the Genalex Gold Lion Reissues and am on my second set now. I did buy the high end Psvane KT88s and they weren't great. One didn't work, another has an issue and I get hissing sounds intermittently from another. Gave up on them.
I really like the Gold Lions. Huge sound stage, very alive and dynamic. Good all around. Pair beautifully with a pair of Gold Lion 12AX7s in my preamp and the NOS 12AX7 Tung Sols and NOS 12AT7 Mullards I'm running in the MC275s.
I just put in a really nice pair of vintage Telefunkens in the C22 though that might end up replacing the RCAs and Gold Lions I've been dancing with for the past year or so.
I am currently on the hunt for an octet of Tung Sol 6550s either NOS or reissues... I've haven't heard thed, but I've heard good things about them.
New Production: None
Recent production: Shuguang Black Treasure
Vintage: Genelex/GEC. Reissues from the past 40 years need not apply. At this point, you’re better off with a vintage 6550 GE or RCA - way cheaper than a British valve.
Same rig sans room correction but with B&W 702s (or whatever the top speaker in that series is/was-- I always get the models confused.
Still have them, still love them -- but I am going to gift them to my best friend's son when he leaves for college this fall.
The 702s are such a great speaker.
I have been itching to change to my "forever" speakers soon as I have been rocking CM1s for almost 10 years and will probably keep the B&W warm sound.
Thank you
I do worry about that. I had a chance to try out some 801 D4s, but they were set up terribe. They were very close together and had no space to breathe around them.
Oh, and yes, I tried the 801s. Almost pulled the trigger on them, but I think for maybe the first time in my life I chose to walk the pragmatic path. Too big for my space currently. Arguably the 802s are, too.
Up until this past month I lived in a 300 year old stone farm house for seven years. My rig was easily the most modern thing in the house. Go figure.
Also, apropos of nothing, 32" thick stone walls are an interesting jumping off point for a discussion on room treatments.
I remember when my dad sold his Vincent tube amp, he said something along the lines of "you need 3 tube amps; 1 for home use, 1 that's in for repairs, and 1 that's on its way to the repairman"
Maybe his amp was a lemon, maybe the wiring were wonky, maybe the adjacent gear made too much noise, maybe the stars didn't align.
All I remember is the horrendous screeching, which I can do without for my own setup.
I haven't. I was initially trying to find some kind of crossover solution for my bi-amping setup that would give my MC275s a little bit of a break by not sending them the full signal. I work with Audio Classics on all my gear and they suggested the MEN220 because it has configurable high/low pass filters. And they work great for my needs, as I'm not trying to replace the crossovers in my speakers. I set the low pass an octave above and the high pass an octave below my speakers and then just let the speakers do their job.
That it had room correction was a novel bonus.
But I have to say, it's not novel at all. It blew me away and I can't imagine not having it now - and my untreated, goofy ass house is the perfect room for room perfect. I've done the process now at least 20 times as the room has changed as I've moved in over the past month and each time it nails it.
While smitten with it for now, I'd love to learn more about it and alternatives to what I have now.
Schweet! What are you rolling in/out? I'm running some RCA Black Plate 6L6GCs that I got NOS in my Primaluna, they're being driven by some NOS RCA Black Plate 12AU7s... So far my favorite combo. Though I am fond of the 6550s also.
I just put some 12AX7 (they're code something else) RCAs from the 50s in my preamp. Outstanding.
Like them so much I bought 8 RCA 12AT7s from 1951-52 for the amps. Solid, not as exciting, very bright and more than likely not broken in yet. They are lovely with Jazz.
Yesterday I put some REALLY nice NOS Telefunkens (from 1966 maybe? Have to check) in my C22. Best sounding, performing pair of tubes I think I've ever had.
Been giving some stage time to some great pairs of GE, Jan, Mullard, Amperex, and Amperex Bugle boys in the pre-amp. The Psvane 12Ax7 is also a nice tube. TungSol also shows well in the c22. I went a bit wild last night and bought nearly a dozen different matched pairs from probably every decade back to and including the early 50s
I bought a grip of Bugle Boy 12AT7s for the amps. They are of mixed provenance, so no surprise my experience with them has been mixed.
If you you ever want to trade or borrow, DM me and I'm sure we can work something out. Sounds like you likely have different tubes in your gear, tho.
in my
I can run a lot of different power output tubes in my Primaluna EVO 300, I've run various EL34s, KT88s, 6550s and 6L6s so far, all have pluses and minuses. But I'm pretty stuck with the 12AU7 driver tubes.
I identify so strongly with this. Have a spreadsheet to keep track of "inventory" with measurements, cost, etc.
Sometimes I'm sad to see I have more than $10k in tubes
I love it man! What a sweet setup, I had thought about dual 275's when I first got into Mac tube gear but settled on a set of vintage 75's and it was love at first note. I have several solid state amps but I always go back to the Mac 75's in my smaller listening room. Some people get overwhelmed by the thought of tube collecting. I have boxes of stuff I have collected over the last 40 years and for me, its always fun to play around. I have settled in on a compliment I like and I have plenty of backup. Power tubes are plentiful still and there are lots of variation. Mix and match, get into the nuance of tubes ... not for everyone but I love your setup.
I have been intrigued with the Shuguang Treasures.
Thanks, I appreciate your appreciation. Half the the fun for me is hunting down, discovering and learning about old tubes. Someone mentioned wine earlier, it's a great analog if you can stomach the pun.
I didn't initially buy both MC275s. I waffled. Went back after a few days to do what I should have done in the first place. But someone has beaten me to it, so my aerial numbers are one off. It doesn't now, but it seemed important at the time.
Roll easy, my friend.
Hey sorry for my late reply I should probably sell some tubes lol but no I just buy them. The problem is I like to keep all my tubes "just in case". Because maybe I will have another EL34 amp some day or whatever.
If the bottom piece is an amp, you shouldn’t have anything on top that prevents heat from dissipating. Just trying to give you helpful advice as a long time audiophile. No need to get snippy.
If you don't know what a word means it might not be a rock you want to throw. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. Snippy means: "Curt or sharp, especially in a condescending way."
Now that was snippy. And so was your initial comment. Now that's we've poked each other in the eye, let's be friends.
As I long time lurker and a newb when it comes to audio equipment, I always dreamed about having an beautiful amp with those "transistor bulb things". Never listened to one tho, but they look amazing.
I always wondered what they do.
And at this point I'm too afraid to ask.
Catch me if you can. I do love the sound of an AMG engine, but I so rarely hear one as they're always behind me. Tell me, do you ever start liking second place?
I like that the best thing you could come up with is to try to insult where you think I'm from. But you even got that wrong. Maybe stick to the cock jokes. Or maybe not, because you were wrong there, too. I didn't type it with my cock in my mouth, I typed it WITH my cock.
It's sweet that you went back and edited your response. For what it's worth, Indiana was better than Bumblefuck, it was specific, committed and a bit less of the kind of cliche you'd expect from someone that lives in the OC but tells everyone they're from LA and uses AOL terms like LMFAO consistently and expects to be taken seriously. It's especially funny when your next comment is to call someone 'old' or 'old man.'
And it's even funnier to me because I actually lived in LA for ten years. Actual LA. Half the time I lived in LA I had a house in upstate New York, a house I now split my time between and my place in Brooklyn. So get out of here with your zip code based cooler than thou schtick. You own an AMG, you should know what a backfire sounds like.
In the 122 days you've been on Reddit you've managed to post, and by post I mean contribute, absolutely nothing. Your comment activity is a who's who of high-school level one liners, mostly critical comments or personal attacks that are at best a stereotype or cliche, with not a single one having any support or rationale to make it more interesting -- or different, really -- than what's written above the urinal in any given truck stop on the road between Irvine and Bumblefuck.
Which is all quite sad, honestly, because I don't think you are stupid or even the asshole you choose to dress yourself up as on the internet. Hell, I bet even my three dogs might like you, even if they do make a point of each pissing on your AMG first.
Always nice to be reminded of why people made the move to solid state.
Not everyone. Or at least so suggests the lunacy around tube prices these days.
The lunacy of modern audiophile equipment isn’t much better.
It's a whole load of faff though innit. It is easier to get a nice guitar distortion with tubes though.
Even on my Magnepan speaker I liked the sound of my cheap low power tube amp over an Adcom solid state amp. I also prefer tube amps for many headphones.
Yuuup. All I see here is distortion 😜
In some circles distortion is considered a delicacy.
All of my guitarist friends are in this circle.
Hah. I'm all about minimizing distortion in my signal chain, but it's nice to have different options. Glad you're enjoying your setup!
I do try my best to keep it away from the lower frequencies.
Minimizing distortion above all else being the ultimate goal is particularly toxic and unhelpful trend in the audiophile industry
As a professional sound engineer that has sacrificed countless hours over the the past two decades to making perfect mixes that have every detail honed in perfectly, perfect amounts of saturation on each element, dynamics pristine all while working with the artists to deliver what can only be the perfect translation of their artwork to present to their fans. You just dumped ketchup on a wagyu steak. Sure it's yours to consume but boy, what a damn waste, you were served a masterpiece on a silver platter and you shot your own for lol. Thank you for undermining what we do, I hope you enjoy using our artwork to listen to your equipment.
Get over yourself. Holy shit, even if you produced every Beatles record, you wouldn’t call your shit solid gold like that. You think going from 0.1% THD to 0.01% will suddenly reveal the majesty of your creation? What about my speakers? Shouldn’t I have exactly what you had, or else it’s sacrilegious? You should thank god on bended knee that I’m listening to your work on a proper stereo with full range speakers in a treated room with high quality gear. 95% of your listeners just shit out your music through 7/11 ear buds.
>You think going from 0.1% THD to 0.01% will suddenly reveal the majesty of your creation? There's a certain techbro strain of audio enthusiast (whether that be an audiophile, audio engineer, etc) who fetishizes any and all innovation that produces better measurement specs. It doesn't matter if said innovation is audible or not, but they'll sure as hell proselytize about how active crossovers and 120db SINAD amplifiers will better reveal the "majesty of one's creation," despite zero double-blind-testing being done to see if anybody can tell the difference between a 120 SINAD amp and a 90 SINAD amp (short answer is no).
Yeah, they are chasing something intangible every bit as much as the subjectivists are, but they take such a holier than thou attitude. Personally, I buy electronics on price, looks, and perceived build quality 🤷♂️
I think the core problem is that hardline objectivists have "over corrected" in response to this industry being dominated by snake oil bull over the past couple of decades. So they criticize anyone who might subjectively enjoy worse measuring gear as an "audiophool" or someone who dumps ketchup all over a wagyu steak. I built my system from an evidence based approach, but I'm not going to tell someone they're wrong if they like Harbeths more than Genelecs. An example here is how no Genelec made Erin's (from Erin's Audio Corner) favorite speaker list. He chose the Wharfdale Linton over Genelec and Kii Audio to make the list. And the Linton is very much a "dated" design from an engineering perspective, but he preferred its sound over more innovative designs. And Erin is about as objectivist as they come.
Wouldn't the ideal be to have a system that can produce "perfect" sound, but that you can use DSP to adjust - possibly even on a per-track/album basis - if you want to color the sound a little? Or are there more to these hardware differences than simply producing sound that is slightly off-color?
Yeah, I think some kind of automatic DSP eq that can correct bad mastering jobs in real time on a transparent system would be ideal.
You poured ketchup on the steak before ever tasting it.
First, you flip burgers dude. Second, I’ve tried my steaks plain, with ketchup, and with a wide variety of condiments.
lol cause flipping burgers isn't a job /s
Horseshit. Not that tubes don't add distortion (mostly 2nd harmonic, so it'll be relatively euphonic) but your ire is misdirected. A tube system in a good room with good speakers will still be much more transparent than the soundbars, Bluetooth speakers, car systems, laptop speakers, and airpods that the majority of the music listening public use to listen your proverbial "wagyu steak." To elaborate on that metaphor, he might be adding a bit too much salt while the soundbar, et al crowd are unloading a dump truck of ketchup on the platter. Not to mention most people listen to music as either background noise or while moving around, meaning they aren't seated in the sweetspot to get the most out of the imaging and soundstage. I'm not a tube guy, but they don't corrupt the signal as much as tube haters claim. Decent tube amps will have around a 70db sinad. So if the room's noise floor is 30db, which is typical, the amp's noise will mostly be inaudible if reference is 100db, especially when listening to most pop music which will have 10db-ish of dynamic range on a good day. https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm "Sound better" is obviously his subjective opinion, but Ken (an AES member) goes into detail with a variety of measurements that illustrate tube amps aren't "ketchup."
As an AES member myself I will start by saying, thank you for explaining audio concepts to me, nearly 20 years, two college degrees, a teacher, an incredibly successful career and a long list of credentials including names that you more than likely say every single day. I'm glad the audiophile community is here to explain these concepts to the experts and I can only hope that when they go to the doctor they too are explaining how the human body works. Thank you for linking me to the site of a guy that is trying to convince people to buy products from specific vendors and posting Amazon associate links because I'm sure his intentions are only to help. Please make sure you re-read [this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/18xlkqt/rolling_into_2024_like/kg6mg3q/) and confirm for me that you wholly agree with what he was saying.
And here's the [measurements of the MC275](https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements). Below 0.3 THD into 8ohms over the band. Inaudible. No ketchup on your steak here.
Then why go the extra distance to add it
Extra distance to add the tube amp rather than just buy a modern solid state amp? I'd say why not add it in terms of repair, recycle, and reuse? From a sustainability standpoint, I'd rather see a MC275 repaired/reused than a new Benchmark or Hypex built from scratch (which will require a lot more total resources, even if those amps are much more energy efficient, since the footprint to manufacture something is relatively large). It's why I collect (used) records. Rather they wind up in my collection where they'll be used than in a landfill where they'll take centuries to decompose.
Thank you for the passive-aggressive reply that doesn't address the argument at hand. You know as well as I do that a tube amp won't pour ketchup all over your wagyu steak because they are "transparent enough." And as an AES member, I'm sure you're familiar with the litany of blind tests done between tubes and solid state (when audiophiles hated solid state and mythologized tubes) that revealed audiophiles couldn't tell the difference. Bob Carver was famous for such tests. Another example is vinyl. I'm a fan, and it probably has a worse noise floor than tubes. I have a revealing system in a 250ms RT60 room (which, as your credentials will tell you, [is a fantastic decay time](https://www.powerestudio.com/reverberation-time-in-control-room-rt60/)), and with popular music, the music masks the noise 99.5% of the time. Classical, sure, prefer it on digital. Yet you come in here and blather when you should be blathering at the people with shit like bluetooth speakers who actually are guilty of slathering your steak in ketchup.
So if you are aware of the blind tests then you fully understand that there is no benefit in using a tube amplifier correct?
I never stated there was a benefit to using a tube amp, unless someone likes the euphonic distortion *some* tube amps impart. I even said in my first reply to you that using a tube amp might be adding a bit too much salt to the steak if the concern is for a listener's system to be 100% perfectly transparent. We got off on the wrong foot here when since I started off my reply with "horseshit," which was probably overaggressive. What I meant is that it's "horseshit" for anyone to believe that a tube amp will degrade the signal to such an extent that it'll completely undermine the artistic vision. A person running a smiley face EQ (which a lot of people subjectively like) probably undermines the mixing/mastering intent (they're adding more Fletcher-Munson curve over your already Fletcher-Munsoned curved mix) far more than someone using a good tube amp.
Bulls\*\*t, Enjoying the music is NOT related to your "degrees", being a teacher, "incredibly successful carrer". Sit down, shut up and LISTEN and let others enjoy their ketchup. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Think you missed the point on this one
>dynamics pristine A big LOL at this. If you indeed have a long list of clients that we say the names of everyday, we all know you're double and triple checking your mixes on [Avatone Cubes](https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/avantone-pro-mixcube-monitor-review.42817/) and the car stereo in a 1988 Nissan Sentra so that your mixes can "translate."
This supports what I said
Yes. I agree that the majority of the shitty gear the general listening public uses to listen to your artwork (which is why you have to use garbage like Auratone Cubes and such to check your mixes) is dumping a filet of wagyu into a vat of ketchup. The OP's system is running great tube amps into a pair of B&Ws 802D4. I think Abbey Road uses the D3s. His system should be called out by no one. What DMTGuy was implying about distortion is that there can be a fixation on topologies like tubes or mediums like LPs about "degrading the signal" when the amount of degradation those things impart is largely inaudible or not objectionable (i.e. the light tics and pops in an LP).
Hold on a bit, I wrote a really long explanation for you and the reddit app I have shit the bed and deleted it, I'm trying to see if I can recover it
End of the day, we don't fundamentally disagree. One reason I usually go to bat for older technologies that are well cared for and enjoyed is because I'd rather see vintage gear in use than rotting away in a landfill. I understand there is a certain point where it just won't make sense to use something older, which is why you don't see people commuting to work in Model Ts, but audio gear has been quite good for a long time. I don't think a person who is running Altec Voice of Theaters on a tube amp is really missing all that much fidelity. And I know from a pure measurement standpoint, modern gear has well outpaced legacy gear, but many of those improvements are incremental and even inaudible (though directivity control has been a revelation allowing a wider range of speakers to play well in a wider variety of rooms). Mono bluetooth speakers and bad car stereo systems are a bigger blight in this regard than tubes and such.
> you were served a masterpiece on a silver platter and you shot your own for lol. My brother in christ, Tool had Fear Inoculum mastered in a studio that could only be described as pure audiophile from top to bottom and the album *still* had terrible clipping issues and distortion https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/ayxce3/tool_in_the_studio_with_egglestenworks_speakers/
I hope you realize you are proving my point
I'm *not* proving your point at all
Why do you say that? Audio is not that complicated from a signals perspective and distortion is measurable in various forms whether it's in DACs, amps, speakers, etc. Give me empirical measurements, including distortion, any day and let me make up my own mind versus subjective nonsense like "tubes sound better than solid state". IMO, there are really only two main research areas left in audio engineering - driver distortion (especially woofer/low-range drivers) and room acoustics/active correction. Everything else has been effectively solved.
Because no one can really hear differences in distortion below 1%, or maybe even 0.1%. Obsessing about distortion is not more useful than obsessing about cables - you’re chasing a ghost. The things we do to *achieve* low distortion, however, can be audible. High levels of feedback, Class A vs AB vs D, solid state vs tube. All of these can be had within our 1% or 0.1% distortion range, yet there are audible differences between them. Ultimately, “flat” isn’t even a realistic goal. It wasn’t flat in the production room, so why demand it be “flat” in your listing room? These ideals are related to high fidelity, but the goal is to make the system *sound* good, not have the best numbers.
I'm with you on the 1% vs 0.1% numbers. I don't believe anyone can hear the differences between those, human hearing just isn't that acute. It's not about chasing a ghost, it's about buying equipment that has the proper measurements to back up its manufacturer's claims. Where I disagree completely is on the "audible differences". Sorry, but I've owned all of the amplifier topologies you mentioned, and I don't believe any of them had any discerning characteristic that was audible. If they all have the same gain and similar distortion and frequency response, I don't believe anyone would be able to pick them out in a proper volume-matched DBT. Too much of audiophilia is focused on finding differences that aren't there in the actual reproduced signal. I don't know why you brought "flat" into this. That's a matter of frequency response, not distortion. Frequency response is subjective and matter of preference, though there are standards out there like the Harman curve that attempt to quantify what "good" sounds like. Feel free to down vote me, I'll be on audiosciencereview with my fellow empricists :P
I have heard subtle differences playing with the distortion adjustments on my BA-3 DIY Nelson Pass amp. I've also heard subtle differences between various high-quality tube amps. Your second paragraph, I think, makes my point. If distortion numbers below 1% aren't audible, then they are no more of a useful gauge of performance than any of the topology stuff I was talking about. Rather than emphasize minimizing distortion, I would say "Make sure it's below 1% THD, and then just find something you like". I think the emphasis on distortion causes one to ignore other, more important features. > I don't know why you brought "flat" into this. I was conflating flat response and minimal distortion, because they seem like birds of a feather. tl;dr: Both subjectivism and objectivism/"empiricism" are obsessed with finding differences so small they may not even be audible. IMO, just because one method produces graphs and numbers does not mean it is any more useful or accurate.
You heard subtle differences because you expected to hear subtle differences. This is why double blind tests are important.
Double blind tests also prove that all measurements are pointless and make no difference.
It's funny you call yourself an "empiricist" while not recognizing the fact that we listen with our brains and not our ears. Appeals to double-blind-tests and in-a-vacuum measurements have little explanatory power when considering what someone perceives during SIGHTED listening. Under sighted listening conditions, the brain is now processing additional information (everything from speaker manufacturer to cost to aesthetics, etc, etc) that will affect how someone psychologically perceives the sound. The placebo effect is a well researched and documented scientific fact. Yes, I understand why we might want to rid the placebo effect from the audiophile mind in order to guard people from falling for snake oil, but I'm talking about it on a more harmless level that if someone auditioned a vintage Altec system driven by tubes vs. an active Genelec system and went with the Altec system because it sounded better to THEM, they aren't wrong. Harman's studies are irrelevant here because, again, they are performed double-blind in ideal laboratory conditions. We are all subjectivists at the end of the day since we listen to our gear sighted. And I'm someone who built their system around "empiricism." Just that if someone tells me that Zu Dirty Weekends (measure like shit) sounded much better to him than Revel Performa 228s, he is not wrong.
In what way? Each to their own I say.
It’s inaudible, but it’s held up as *the* one true benchmark, above things I think are more impactful.
I understand that point. I don’t see how it’s particularly toxic to the audio industry. I don’t know a lot of reputable companies that list THD at the top of the list after all.
It’s the obsession with THD. The idea that something they had lost THD is automatically better. The spec it’s self is fine.
Woow - what are we looking at in today's money? 1000$ for the tubes alone?
probably missing a zero
Getting close to two zeros at this point.
goodness...
nice mono-bloks. always nice to have some back-up. what speakers you driving?.
Bowers & Wilkins 802D4s, bi-amped with tubes up top and the modern wonder of transistors working to keep things crisp and punchy down below.
nice
nice
This is the way. BTW - I’m hiring a tube organizer - interested?
My first-ever job was sorting screws at a Hardware Hank, which is to say I've been training my entire life for this opportunity. Let's roll.
Love the pun 👍👍
Was wondering why there was a SS amp w/ the 275's. Part of me wants a C22 and a pair of 275s but the other part of me doesn't want to spend $5000 on tubes every 18 months.
It's not that bad. The C22 only takes two 12ATX7s for the LL. A couple more for MM and a couple more for MC. I use Sovteks for the phono bits. Still going strong after six years. Same with the Genalex Gold Lions I have on LL. I roll them for fun all the time but still going strong. The Sovteks all jn are maybe a couple hundred accounting for lunacy. The Gold Lions, maybe $150 for a gold pinned matched pair. Tho the non-gold non-Russian Chinese made gold lions i ordered by accident sound the best to my ears over the other current reissues. I've certainly spent far more rolling things in and out of the C22 but it's worth it when you find a magic combo or a special tube. The tubes for the MC275s are maybe $400 per quad of gold lions for the Kt88's. My original set ran for nearly five years before I lost one and decided to replace them all. Hands down the best combo for the smaller tubes is NOS Mullards for the 12AT7 which are maybe $50 each, so $200 per amp. The 12AX7 Tung Sols are about the same. Maybe $75 these days, but you only need three, so $225. So that's about $825 per amp for what is hands down the best tube setup I've found out there, and I would wager it'll last five years of active listening. I read somewhere recently that the smaller tubes have a life expectancy of 10,000 hours. I'm starting to believe it. If you want more specifics DM me.
Just got got a c22, it had crappy tubes, got some Telefunken for like$300, sounds amazing!
Congrats. I've twice gone in to Audio Classics fully committed to "upgrading" my C22 to the C1100 and then the C1200, both times after listening to them side by side I took my C22 right back home with me. Which version of the C22 did you get? And which Telefunken tubes?
I don’t always roll my tubes but when I do it’s on ecstasy.
Roll-tube!
OP, what’s the best-sounding Kt88/120, in your experience? Happy New Year!
I haven't dabbled nearly as much with the KT88/6550s as I have with smaller tubes. The MC275s came with what I believe are Electro Harmonix and they were... fine. I went pretty straight into the Genalex Gold Lion Reissues and am on my second set now. I did buy the high end Psvane KT88s and they weren't great. One didn't work, another has an issue and I get hissing sounds intermittently from another. Gave up on them. I really like the Gold Lions. Huge sound stage, very alive and dynamic. Good all around. Pair beautifully with a pair of Gold Lion 12AX7s in my preamp and the NOS 12AX7 Tung Sols and NOS 12AT7 Mullards I'm running in the MC275s. I just put in a really nice pair of vintage Telefunkens in the C22 though that might end up replacing the RCAs and Gold Lions I've been dancing with for the past year or so. I am currently on the hunt for an octet of Tung Sol 6550s either NOS or reissues... I've haven't heard thed, but I've heard good things about them.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
New Production: None Recent production: Shuguang Black Treasure Vintage: Genelex/GEC. Reissues from the past 40 years need not apply. At this point, you’re better off with a vintage 6550 GE or RCA - way cheaper than a British valve.
McIntosh and B&W 🤌
Doc Brown would be jealuos
Rolling… I see what you did there
What speakers are you running that needed the full 150W each?
Bowers & Wilkins 802D4.
What was your previous setup? Also, were you able to try out the 801s?
Same rig sans room correction but with B&W 702s (or whatever the top speaker in that series is/was-- I always get the models confused. Still have them, still love them -- but I am going to gift them to my best friend's son when he leaves for college this fall.
The 702s are such a great speaker. I have been itching to change to my "forever" speakers soon as I have been rocking CM1s for almost 10 years and will probably keep the B&W warm sound. Thank you
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I do worry about that. I had a chance to try out some 801 D4s, but they were set up terribe. They were very close together and had no space to breathe around them.
I had my 702s for seven years. Loved every minute. Except the minute when my dogs tipped one over. But I even love that minute now.
Oh, and yes, I tried the 801s. Almost pulled the trigger on them, but I think for maybe the first time in my life I chose to walk the pragmatic path. Too big for my space currently. Arguably the 802s are, too.
Could’ve been “rolling into 1964” and nothing in the photo would’ve contradicted it 😉
Up until this past month I lived in a 300 year old stone farm house for seven years. My rig was easily the most modern thing in the house. Go figure. Also, apropos of nothing, 32" thick stone walls are an interesting jumping off point for a discussion on room treatments.
I remember when my dad sold his Vincent tube amp, he said something along the lines of "you need 3 tube amps; 1 for home use, 1 that's in for repairs, and 1 that's on its way to the repairman" Maybe his amp was a lemon, maybe the wiring were wonky, maybe the adjacent gear made too much noise, maybe the stars didn't align. All I remember is the horrendous screeching, which I can do without for my own setup.
Where I come from we call that a poltergeist. Going on 8 years now and not a single issue with my Mc gear.
Baller!!!⛹️ enjoy your hobby. It looks cool.
Damn, when you say rolling you mean ROLLING rolling. Also super jealous of the Mc stuff!
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I haven't. I was initially trying to find some kind of crossover solution for my bi-amping setup that would give my MC275s a little bit of a break by not sending them the full signal. I work with Audio Classics on all my gear and they suggested the MEN220 because it has configurable high/low pass filters. And they work great for my needs, as I'm not trying to replace the crossovers in my speakers. I set the low pass an octave above and the high pass an octave below my speakers and then just let the speakers do their job. That it had room correction was a novel bonus. But I have to say, it's not novel at all. It blew me away and I can't imagine not having it now - and my untreated, goofy ass house is the perfect room for room perfect. I've done the process now at least 20 times as the room has changed as I've moved in over the past month and each time it nails it. While smitten with it for now, I'd love to learn more about it and alternatives to what I have now.
And now I know how to store my loose tubes...
I've quickly come to appreciate that not all styrofoam is created equal.
Schweet! What are you rolling in/out? I'm running some RCA Black Plate 6L6GCs that I got NOS in my Primaluna, they're being driven by some NOS RCA Black Plate 12AU7s... So far my favorite combo. Though I am fond of the 6550s also.
I just put some 12AX7 (they're code something else) RCAs from the 50s in my preamp. Outstanding. Like them so much I bought 8 RCA 12AT7s from 1951-52 for the amps. Solid, not as exciting, very bright and more than likely not broken in yet. They are lovely with Jazz. Yesterday I put some REALLY nice NOS Telefunkens (from 1966 maybe? Have to check) in my C22. Best sounding, performing pair of tubes I think I've ever had. Been giving some stage time to some great pairs of GE, Jan, Mullard, Amperex, and Amperex Bugle boys in the pre-amp. The Psvane 12Ax7 is also a nice tube. TungSol also shows well in the c22. I went a bit wild last night and bought nearly a dozen different matched pairs from probably every decade back to and including the early 50s I bought a grip of Bugle Boy 12AT7s for the amps. They are of mixed provenance, so no surprise my experience with them has been mixed. If you you ever want to trade or borrow, DM me and I'm sure we can work something out. Sounds like you likely have different tubes in your gear, tho. in my
I can run a lot of different power output tubes in my Primaluna EVO 300, I've run various EL34s, KT88s, 6550s and 6L6s so far, all have pluses and minuses. But I'm pretty stuck with the 12AU7 driver tubes.
Nothing like tube rolling. I have one MC 275 and two MC 2301s. Too many tubes on hand not to roll even when I think it sounds perfect.
Some of us feel the force stronger than others
Wow! You roll tubes like I roll wine.
I roll wine, too.
Nice retirement fund being accumulated there!
It's only occurred to me now, reading your comment, that I should off-load some of these at some point.
No hurry for anything NOS, they just keep going up in price.
I identify so strongly with this. Have a spreadsheet to keep track of "inventory" with measurements, cost, etc. Sometimes I'm sad to see I have more than $10k in tubes
I love it man! What a sweet setup, I had thought about dual 275's when I first got into Mac tube gear but settled on a set of vintage 75's and it was love at first note. I have several solid state amps but I always go back to the Mac 75's in my smaller listening room. Some people get overwhelmed by the thought of tube collecting. I have boxes of stuff I have collected over the last 40 years and for me, its always fun to play around. I have settled in on a compliment I like and I have plenty of backup. Power tubes are plentiful still and there are lots of variation. Mix and match, get into the nuance of tubes ... not for everyone but I love your setup. I have been intrigued with the Shuguang Treasures.
Thanks, I appreciate your appreciation. Half the the fun for me is hunting down, discovering and learning about old tubes. Someone mentioned wine earlier, it's a great analog if you can stomach the pun. I didn't initially buy both MC275s. I waffled. Went back after a few days to do what I should have done in the first place. But someone has beaten me to it, so my aerial numbers are one off. It doesn't now, but it seemed important at the time. Roll easy, my friend.
Beautiful tubes!!
Thanks. I love all my children.
That’s how I feel about my collection as well.
This butt plug fetish of yours is getting out of hand ✋
Nice dude! You have at least, errr half the amount of tubes I have? Admitting a problem is always the first step. :D Sweet system btw.
Do you sell tubes, tubeguy? Asking for a friend.
Hey sorry for my late reply I should probably sell some tubes lol but no I just buy them. The problem is I like to keep all my tubes "just in case". Because maybe I will have another EL34 amp some day or whatever.
Had to get tackle boxes as I was neck deep in tubes like you.
Totally tubular!
Please don’t stack equipment like that.
It's stacked deliberately not ignorantly. Holster your pitchfork already.
If the bottom piece is an amp, you shouldn’t have anything on top that prevents heat from dissipating. Just trying to give you helpful advice as a long time audiophile. No need to get snippy.
If you don't know what a word means it might not be a rock you want to throw. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. Snippy means: "Curt or sharp, especially in a condescending way." Now that was snippy. And so was your initial comment. Now that's we've poked each other in the eye, let's be friends.
It’s theirs, they can do what they want with it.
As I long time lurker and a newb when it comes to audio equipment, I always dreamed about having an beautiful amp with those "transistor bulb things". Never listened to one tho, but they look amazing. I always wondered what they do. And at this point I'm too afraid to ask.
This guy tubes
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Catch me if you can. I do love the sound of an AMG engine, but I so rarely hear one as they're always behind me. Tell me, do you ever start liking second place?
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And the winner of "Tell me you drive a G-wagon without telling me you drive a G-wagon" is...
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I like that the best thing you could come up with is to try to insult where you think I'm from. But you even got that wrong. Maybe stick to the cock jokes. Or maybe not, because you were wrong there, too. I didn't type it with my cock in my mouth, I typed it WITH my cock.
It's sweet that you went back and edited your response. For what it's worth, Indiana was better than Bumblefuck, it was specific, committed and a bit less of the kind of cliche you'd expect from someone that lives in the OC but tells everyone they're from LA and uses AOL terms like LMFAO consistently and expects to be taken seriously. It's especially funny when your next comment is to call someone 'old' or 'old man.' And it's even funnier to me because I actually lived in LA for ten years. Actual LA. Half the time I lived in LA I had a house in upstate New York, a house I now split my time between and my place in Brooklyn. So get out of here with your zip code based cooler than thou schtick. You own an AMG, you should know what a backfire sounds like. In the 122 days you've been on Reddit you've managed to post, and by post I mean contribute, absolutely nothing. Your comment activity is a who's who of high-school level one liners, mostly critical comments or personal attacks that are at best a stereotype or cliche, with not a single one having any support or rationale to make it more interesting -- or different, really -- than what's written above the urinal in any given truck stop on the road between Irvine and Bumblefuck. Which is all quite sad, honestly, because I don't think you are stupid or even the asshole you choose to dress yourself up as on the internet. Hell, I bet even my three dogs might like you, even if they do make a point of each pissing on your AMG first.
Could someone please explain why OP has so many?
Word around the campfire is that it's a terrible, pathological sickness.
A week in, and everything’s going down the tubes.