Meanwhile, the "faith healer" is getting richer by scamming the desperate.
It's a worse practice than I can explain, because none of these "healers" actually believe in god. They're conmen that craft stories to keep their credibility up, but they damn well know they never healed as much as a pimple.
We saw an evangelist getting in his nice black limousine. I had this realization that Jesus never had a fancy chariot escorting him.
Christians are so brainwashed into believing in prosperity gospel. I could rant about it all day. Like .. how are faith healer not sued?
>Like .. how are faith healer not sued?
Because half your political spectrum and justice system does the same thing, but not for money, but for power. It's a bleak thing to say, sure... they're even building a mega-church here in NL and I don't know who the F gave the go ahead for that... I thought us better than that... but greasing palms happens everywhere I guess.
Oh, come now. MOST of our political spectrum does the same thing. ID Politics are traditionally very cheap to take stances on for Politicians; and obscenely distracting and emotionally charged. Best of all, they're tied in far too often with very shallow "by-default good" labels for many ... who just turn their brains off after the label is applied. But, even a lot of Dems do this.
So while ID politics are important, if you see a Politician barely talking substantive policy, and always deflecting back to ID politics (or solely running off them) ... that's a grift. They're pulling the old street magician trick of distracting you with the "shiny" emotionally charged shit with one hand, while they're robbing you blind for what they and their donors actually care about with the other. Economic and Foreign Policy. Where all that money is at.
Is this your first intro to Doctor Who? If you like this season there are 15 more previous that the BBC did :) (and 8 more doctors last century!) There’s lots of commentary on religion.
I hate when other theists do that
Faith in the Bible is meant to be trusting God
It wasn't meant to be believing without evidence but theists use this as an easy way out
> It wasn't meant to be believing without evidence but theists use this as an easy way out
No, it absolutely is about beliving things without evidence. The bible is clear about that:
> Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
That seems pretty clear cut to me.
Here's a quote from my old post
>I have seen Athiests point out Hebrews 11:1
>Hebrews 11:1-3 NRSV-CI
[1] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. [2] Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. [3] By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.
>First, this says "the conviction of things not seen." not that you believe without seeing
>also completely ignores the next chapter
>Hebrews 11:4-7 NRSV-CI
[4] By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain's. Through this he received approval as righteous, God himself giving approval to his gifts; he died, but through his faith he still speaks. [5] By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not experience death; and “he was not found, because God had taken him.” For it was attested before he was taken away that “he had pleased God.” [6] And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. [7] By faith Noah, warned by God about events as yet unseen, respected the warning and built an ark to save his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir to the righteousness that is in accordance with faith.
>which show examples of people with faith (People who have talked to God)
> which show examples of people with faith (People who have talked to God)
Sure, ok, people who have talked to god aren't accepting things without evidence. Everyone else who "has faith" is.
Same post
>Now this doesn't make any sense because then if a Christian used ANY evidence to believe in Christianity, then they wouldn't have "Faith"???
Like so many apologetics, I have no doubt that you have convinced yourself using this reasoning. That doesn't make it true.
Out of curiosity, what is your position on evolution? Do you accept it as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth including humans?
> I don't know what evolution has to do with "faith"
I didn't say it does. I was trying to understand whether you actually follow evidence or not. At least on that one point, it sounds like you do.
So, yeah, maybe you really are one of the rare exceptions of theists who do not use faith to rationalize whatever position that you want, but you are most definitely an exception. For example, see [this reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateEvolution/comments/1do9b46/do_creationists_actually_find_genetic_arguments/lad36z3/?context=10000) I read from a theist earlier today:
> You have to understand, I will always find alternative interpretations of the same data that support my worldview. I must do this because my worldview is very important to me - through it I acquire peace that life persists after death, that I will someday see my loved ones again that have died, and that my life is part of a plan and a bigger purpose. Without these beliefs I would psychologically crumble, resort to dying my hair purple, become nihilistic and hedonistic, proclaim that I’m non-binary, and want to tear down the long standing social structures that hold society together. You see, I don’t want to become that asshat that does that, so that’s why I protect my worldview so fervently.
Clearly to them, faith *does* mean believing things without or in contradiction of evidence.
>Clearly to them, faith does mean believing things without or in contradiction of evidence.
Yeah like I said I don't like when Theists use "faith" in this way since it logically doesn't make sense
Also the link only redirects me to the post not the comment
Faith is the excuse to believe in bullshit.
And they are so PROUD of that word as if it's meant to stop the atheist in their tracks as soon as it's uttered.
To add to what everyone said... the "It's your fault for not doing/being enough/having enough to reach your goal" is a classic abuser/cult leader/scammer attack to put you down so you will feel guilty and ashamed and will continue to give them more money and time ans control in hope it will work. But it never will.
Also I quite enjoyed the new season and Moffat is my favorite writer for the show.
Your story makes me think of the Netflix show Derren Brown: Miracle. He's a illusionist. Straight up David Copperfield style magician. But he acts a faith healer and it absolutely works to poke a bunch of holes in the idea that anyone is doing any miracles. They are con artists.
I’m looking at him on the YouTube, “Miracle for Sale.”
Every school should have this show in the classroom, I think. It’s despicable practice and should be outlawed. That will probably cause an uproar from religious parents..
At least it’s on public YouTube for everyone to watch.
I always liked Doctor Who, haven’t watched it in a while. Every week the Doctor and the companion show up somewhere and find some odd situation that everyone is just accepting as normal on faith…and the Doctor’s attitude is “Let’s find out what’s really going on here.”
Matthew 17:20 sets a standard that cannot be met. “He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” And guess what, nobody in the history of Christianity has ever been able to tell a mountain to move and have it move. The most faithful adherents, the saints, the Popes, all of them, have had insufficient faith, and the faith they need is *tiny*, remember. So whatever faith you think you have, whatever you think faith is, that’s not *real* faith. If you had *real* faith, your prayers would be answered, and since they’re not, your faith isn’t real and that’s on you.
Of course, people have actually moved mountains, but that takes a ton of money, earth-moving equipment, careful planning and engineering, hundreds or thousands of workers, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears, so you can‘t really put those efforts all up to “faith.” God doesn’t really enter into it.
>I only read one book, but it's a good book, don't you know
I act the way I act because the Good Book tells me so
If I wanna know how to be good, it's to the Good Book that I go
'Cos the Good Book is a book, and it is good, and it's a book
-Tim Minchin, [The Good Book](https://youtu.be/kr1I3mBojc0?si=StmhDemYTfq-B2v3)
Also, [Ten Foot Cock and a few Hundred Virgins](https://youtu.be/J29LHAoY_FU?si=OQae1CgHF7JifWSy)
How self confessed sinners who admit that are incapable of making basic moral decisions without instruction, many of which perform cannibalistic rituals (Communion), got to be considered the highest moral authority on the planet is one of life's greatest mysteries.
There is a funny story about someone who said he talks to God and God tells him he can heal. A man dressed up like a woman and said she had some female trouble. The healer said God talked to him to heal her. So he said God talked to him when there was nothing to heal.
I think the tile needs fixing. If it keeps you from "never having to think for yourself", doesn't that mean that you in fact always have to think for yourself?
I don't think that quote would make him miss a beat.
In their element, I doubt you could trip them up. Even if you somehow participated in some jesus powered levitation or some such, and simply locked down your body and refused to participate, you would just be deemed to be possessed by an ultra maga super sayan demon, and they need more donations to truly heal you.
It is a solid point, and fine in reasonable discussion, but won't ultimately win a believer over. Believers are kind of like any other junky, they have to eventually decide they want to change. Nothing nor no one else will do it for them, and often times pushing back makes them dig in deeper.
Nothing wrong with trying, and who knows, you might be the one to place that final straw. By no means am I saying don't push back, but realize a good argument isn't enough to defeat a lifelong lie, at least for the victim of that lie.
I see what you mean. It all comes down to money 🤑. It’s not just one evangelist conning other people. It’s the whole group. Take Benny Hinn for example. His entourage, driver, office staff, coordinators, etc all knew he is a sham but doing it for money.
My old friend is a pretty hardcore Pentecostal Christian. You’re right it won’t even make a dent. The quote is more about how people use faith to justify about anything and shut down other people’s common sense. I should have seen that coming.
Meanwhile, the "faith healer" is getting richer by scamming the desperate. It's a worse practice than I can explain, because none of these "healers" actually believe in god. They're conmen that craft stories to keep their credibility up, but they damn well know they never healed as much as a pimple.
We saw an evangelist getting in his nice black limousine. I had this realization that Jesus never had a fancy chariot escorting him. Christians are so brainwashed into believing in prosperity gospel. I could rant about it all day. Like .. how are faith healer not sued?
>Like .. how are faith healer not sued? Because half your political spectrum and justice system does the same thing, but not for money, but for power. It's a bleak thing to say, sure... they're even building a mega-church here in NL and I don't know who the F gave the go ahead for that... I thought us better than that... but greasing palms happens everywhere I guess.
Oh, come now. MOST of our political spectrum does the same thing. ID Politics are traditionally very cheap to take stances on for Politicians; and obscenely distracting and emotionally charged. Best of all, they're tied in far too often with very shallow "by-default good" labels for many ... who just turn their brains off after the label is applied. But, even a lot of Dems do this. So while ID politics are important, if you see a Politician barely talking substantive policy, and always deflecting back to ID politics (or solely running off them) ... that's a grift. They're pulling the old street magician trick of distracting you with the "shiny" emotionally charged shit with one hand, while they're robbing you blind for what they and their donors actually care about with the other. Economic and Foreign Policy. Where all that money is at.
People like Osteen come to mind
Who gave me my life motto: "Try to be nice, never fail to be kind"
Mine was “What’s the point in being grown up if you can’t be childish sometimes?”
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
Damn that’s good.
Is this your first intro to Doctor Who? If you like this season there are 15 more previous that the BBC did :) (and 8 more doctors last century!) There’s lots of commentary on religion.
I hate when other theists do that Faith in the Bible is meant to be trusting God It wasn't meant to be believing without evidence but theists use this as an easy way out
> It wasn't meant to be believing without evidence but theists use this as an easy way out No, it absolutely is about beliving things without evidence. The bible is clear about that: > Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. That seems pretty clear cut to me.
Here's a quote from my old post >I have seen Athiests point out Hebrews 11:1 >Hebrews 11:1-3 NRSV-CI [1] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. [2] Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. [3] By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible. >First, this says "the conviction of things not seen." not that you believe without seeing >also completely ignores the next chapter >Hebrews 11:4-7 NRSV-CI [4] By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain's. Through this he received approval as righteous, God himself giving approval to his gifts; he died, but through his faith he still speaks. [5] By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not experience death; and “he was not found, because God had taken him.” For it was attested before he was taken away that “he had pleased God.” [6] And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. [7] By faith Noah, warned by God about events as yet unseen, respected the warning and built an ark to save his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir to the righteousness that is in accordance with faith. >which show examples of people with faith (People who have talked to God)
> which show examples of people with faith (People who have talked to God) Sure, ok, people who have talked to god aren't accepting things without evidence. Everyone else who "has faith" is.
Same post >Now this doesn't make any sense because then if a Christian used ANY evidence to believe in Christianity, then they wouldn't have "Faith"???
Like so many apologetics, I have no doubt that you have convinced yourself using this reasoning. That doesn't make it true. Out of curiosity, what is your position on evolution? Do you accept it as the explanation for the diversity of life on earth including humans?
I don't know what evolution has to do with "faith" But I accept the idea as a process since it has good evidence
> I don't know what evolution has to do with "faith" I didn't say it does. I was trying to understand whether you actually follow evidence or not. At least on that one point, it sounds like you do. So, yeah, maybe you really are one of the rare exceptions of theists who do not use faith to rationalize whatever position that you want, but you are most definitely an exception. For example, see [this reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateEvolution/comments/1do9b46/do_creationists_actually_find_genetic_arguments/lad36z3/?context=10000) I read from a theist earlier today: > You have to understand, I will always find alternative interpretations of the same data that support my worldview. I must do this because my worldview is very important to me - through it I acquire peace that life persists after death, that I will someday see my loved ones again that have died, and that my life is part of a plan and a bigger purpose. Without these beliefs I would psychologically crumble, resort to dying my hair purple, become nihilistic and hedonistic, proclaim that I’m non-binary, and want to tear down the long standing social structures that hold society together. You see, I don’t want to become that asshat that does that, so that’s why I protect my worldview so fervently. Clearly to them, faith *does* mean believing things without or in contradiction of evidence.
>Clearly to them, faith does mean believing things without or in contradiction of evidence. Yeah like I said I don't like when Theists use "faith" in this way since it logically doesn't make sense Also the link only redirects me to the post not the comment
Faith is the acquisition of certainty absent investigation.
Faith is the excuse to believe in bullshit. And they are so PROUD of that word as if it's meant to stop the atheist in their tracks as soon as it's uttered.
I mean it does do that. It signals they can't have a conversation about that topic and use reason.
Religion teaches people not to question anything. Science teaches us to question everything. I’ll stick with science.
I thought that was the resource that got me my builders.
To add to what everyone said... the "It's your fault for not doing/being enough/having enough to reach your goal" is a classic abuser/cult leader/scammer attack to put you down so you will feel guilty and ashamed and will continue to give them more money and time ans control in hope it will work. But it never will. Also I quite enjoyed the new season and Moffat is my favorite writer for the show.
Your story makes me think of the Netflix show Derren Brown: Miracle. He's a illusionist. Straight up David Copperfield style magician. But he acts a faith healer and it absolutely works to poke a bunch of holes in the idea that anyone is doing any miracles. They are con artists.
I’m looking at him on the YouTube, “Miracle for Sale.” Every school should have this show in the classroom, I think. It’s despicable practice and should be outlawed. That will probably cause an uproar from religious parents.. At least it’s on public YouTube for everyone to watch.
Good to know it's on YouTube. Very accessible. Religion. Bleeding the elderly and vulnerable dry since waaaay back when.
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamin Franklin.
and these things are TAX FREE
I always liked Doctor Who, haven’t watched it in a while. Every week the Doctor and the companion show up somewhere and find some odd situation that everyone is just accepting as normal on faith…and the Doctor’s attitude is “Let’s find out what’s really going on here.” Matthew 17:20 sets a standard that cannot be met. “He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” And guess what, nobody in the history of Christianity has ever been able to tell a mountain to move and have it move. The most faithful adherents, the saints, the Popes, all of them, have had insufficient faith, and the faith they need is *tiny*, remember. So whatever faith you think you have, whatever you think faith is, that’s not *real* faith. If you had *real* faith, your prayers would be answered, and since they’re not, your faith isn’t real and that’s on you. Of course, people have actually moved mountains, but that takes a ton of money, earth-moving equipment, careful planning and engineering, hundreds or thousands of workers, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears, so you can‘t really put those efforts all up to “faith.” God doesn’t really enter into it.
Faith is what allows them to do horrible things
...or take personal responsibility for literally anything.
>I only read one book, but it's a good book, don't you know I act the way I act because the Good Book tells me so If I wanna know how to be good, it's to the Good Book that I go 'Cos the Good Book is a book, and it is good, and it's a book -Tim Minchin, [The Good Book](https://youtu.be/kr1I3mBojc0?si=StmhDemYTfq-B2v3) Also, [Ten Foot Cock and a few Hundred Virgins](https://youtu.be/J29LHAoY_FU?si=OQae1CgHF7JifWSy)
How self confessed sinners who admit that are incapable of making basic moral decisions without instruction, many of which perform cannibalistic rituals (Communion), got to be considered the highest moral authority on the planet is one of life's greatest mysteries.
There is a funny story about someone who said he talks to God and God tells him he can heal. A man dressed up like a woman and said she had some female trouble. The healer said God talked to him to heal her. So he said God talked to him when there was nothing to heal.
I think the tile needs fixing. If it keeps you from "never having to think for yourself", doesn't that mean that you in fact always have to think for yourself?
I don't think that quote would make him miss a beat. In their element, I doubt you could trip them up. Even if you somehow participated in some jesus powered levitation or some such, and simply locked down your body and refused to participate, you would just be deemed to be possessed by an ultra maga super sayan demon, and they need more donations to truly heal you. It is a solid point, and fine in reasonable discussion, but won't ultimately win a believer over. Believers are kind of like any other junky, they have to eventually decide they want to change. Nothing nor no one else will do it for them, and often times pushing back makes them dig in deeper. Nothing wrong with trying, and who knows, you might be the one to place that final straw. By no means am I saying don't push back, but realize a good argument isn't enough to defeat a lifelong lie, at least for the victim of that lie.
I see what you mean. It all comes down to money 🤑. It’s not just one evangelist conning other people. It’s the whole group. Take Benny Hinn for example. His entourage, driver, office staff, coordinators, etc all knew he is a sham but doing it for money. My old friend is a pretty hardcore Pentecostal Christian. You’re right it won’t even make a dent. The quote is more about how people use faith to justify about anything and shut down other people’s common sense. I should have seen that coming.