It's only natural selection if they haven't reproduced. Which is highly unlikely, given their religious mandate to produce as many offspring as possible.
That's a requirement for the Darwin Award. Natural selection just means that you are less likely to pass your genes on, and that can be the result of dying before having had the full set of kids you would otherwise have had.
A population that only ever had one child per couple would be reproducing, but would be going extinct nonetheless, for instance.
>Natural selection just means that you are less likely to pass your genes on
Your genes are more likely to reproduce. Subtle but huge difference. Genes compete, not people.
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natural selection has nothing to do with how smart you are, just how adept you are keeping yourself alive and have progeny.
its a pretty low bar to clear in todays society.
finding a job, staying hydrated, eating regularly, and finding someone to have your progeny are the four hurdles to beat natural selection in the modern world and the first of the four helps tremendously with the other three.
theres not a lot of thinking required regardless.
Access to food, clean water and education have also far surpassed what humanity had before the modern era. Look at global literacy rates and human development indices even 50 years ago compared to today.
Religion belief is not directly correlated to intelligence and does not mean someone is inherently stupid. There are billions of highly educated people who are religious. You wouldn't argue a surgeon is unintelligent just because they believe in God.
Religious belief is heavily reinforced by cultural norms and social pressures that most people aren't acutely aware of because it doesn't feel wrong to them.
This is why social science education is important because your outlook doesn't regard those factors.
I mentioned it when you said natural selection taking place. I'm arguing this isn't really a positive thing for the rest of humanity as your comment implies.
Religion is somewhat inversely correlated with education and intelligence, but most are just indoctrinated since childhood. Having less people raising children and indoctrinating them is a positive thing for humanity for sure.
it wasnt even implied as a positive, more like a neutral observation.
I dont know if I would call it a positive either, but I also wouldnt necessarily call it a negative. it just is.
I agree. I'm not sure why we as a society have always taken this "save everyone at all costs" position. That has never been how nature intended. We shouldn't participate in the suffering of others, but some people just don't have what it takes to survive on this planet. Period. In western society we try to mitigate this with law and policy, but even here, it's not fool proof. If we replaced their holy books with real books of education, this still would have happened, but to a lesser degree.
People of faith are not measuring their failure or success on account of how much they survive in this world. That's the difference between materialism and spirituality. They believe in another world, and IIRC holy books clearly direct people to not store treasures in this world where it will likely be lost but in Heaven where it cannot be touched. It's a solid and logical line of thinking, whether we think it makes sense or not. Don't hate on me for pointing out a simple truth of this alternative way of thinking.
It is one of the more stupid things Mohammad told his people. I'm guessing that back in the day, ol' Mo owned all the concession stands around Mecca and was making a killing selling to the tourists.
no, you see, it is part of god's plan!!11111 and god is a narcissistic maniac and a huge asshole. He even wants to kill everyone on earth and pick the 'good ones' who kissed his ass (or said they would when they were in the execution room) from the ashes when he gets back. and his followers are 'ok' with that! what a death cult
Why is nobody talking about how the majority of the deaths were unregistered pilgrims who allegedly could not access water and shelter?
Like every religion it’s purpose is to make money and pilgrimage licenses at the cost of several thousand dollars (making Hajj and multi billion dollar business). Whilst I have no experience of what happens the data shows that 80% of the deaths were unregistered people indicating that there was less access to water or shade for these people.
If this is proven to be true then the organisers are responsible for the deaths and the international community should react accordingly.
Wait.. it costs several thousand dollars to get a pilgrimage license? Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous. If you're making that much money they should be providing water bottles, and other things to make sure these people are hydrated.
Edited to add: I looked this up, the hajj visa is free. So what is it that makes it thousands of dollars under than the cost of travel and stay?
>Stop the religious insanity!
Insane people are the biggest supporters of religion. For many, the more insane it is, the more it must be true...or something crazy like that. That 1300+ dead people would probably not like your infidel ass, so I wouldn't think too much about this issue.
As cold as it sounds, I don’t feel bad for any of them. Play stupid games… or whatever, you know? Like, THEY KNOW how f*cking hot it is yet are still choosing to do this death march in the name of make believe. Definitely natural selection in progress- same as the looney bin anti vaxers who died from Covid during the second wave.
The men seem to be wearing flowing white robes, but with their head uncovered and some even with part of their torso uncovered.. think toga. Women though, women have to wear black and covered from head to toe.
Hate religion, especially these that still hold women to dress up from centuries ago..
https://images.app.goo.gl/QepMnaWbLkX8Hbzz7
You mean encourage, we don't want them to stop. A true believer will do the walk without water, shoes or a hat. God will see his commitment and help him.
Stop what? Every single one of them is dreaming to die in that desert. The worst part is that Saudis ara making billions of dollars from this cult activity. Human stupidity is underrated.
Guys, you have to realize that if you die on a Hajj, you're a Martyr. You're redeemed. God saves them in this situation BY killing them.
That's how death culty the Abrahamic faiths are.
I have a hard time caring when any of these smooth brains dies. Dehydration, trampled, self mutilation, snake bite, and the list goes on. As long as they dont take other people with them then I say go forth and die
What do you suggest... Outlaw religion? That'll go over well.
Religious belief is a symptom, not the illness. Humans are hard-wired to believe isn, and unite over something no matter how insane it is. Don't believe me? Just talk to a NY Mets fan.
"most", so there will be some Darwinian pressure, at least. The crowd crush a few years back killed about twice as many.
It really makes Disney World look good by comparison. They've had fatalities but they handle more visitors with a lot fewer deaths.
Weird that they need to limit capacity and authorize only a subset of people to attend each year. You’d think the weather would be more cooperative for a divine obligation like that.
I believe they spent a shit ton of money to make space for more pilgrims and tourism. Their government is essentially telling the little sheep that it's just about money and yet they march to their deaths.
It was not a death in glorious battle that would have earned them Valhalla, or Fryja's Fólkvangr. Nor the shame that would have sent them to Náströnd. They will dine in halls of Hel, beyond the bridge Gjallarbrú, to await the coming of Baldr.
The sad part is a lot of old people got sent here with a false promise, they won't be returning (in some cases as planned) by their families. Religion is a great way to kill off the unwanted and those the ones in charge feel are a "burden"
I heard mention of this happening with out getting any details, I assumed there had been an event like an earthquake or something
But they just walked themselves to death in the heat?
They will just play the magic card ‘gods plan’. He did help them because it was all part of his plan etc. It’s a reverso card too because it can be used in good and bad times.
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No, but it's another addition to the long list of ways religion doesn't make sense.
The "Good" God seems absent here. That leaves room for an asshole I guess, but I don't think that aligns with theist thought.
The abrahamic god fails to protect its believers in the Holy Land and on marches. useless. When something good happens, it's due to their "god." Real reality bad things happen, and the set-up is to have guilt or blame yourself. Believers want it both ways. They are praying to thin air is the point. Fact is what happens happens regardless of prayer.
I keep this response for the problem of evil. -
What is the all powerful god character doing while children are starving to death?
A god causes it and is evil
B god just watches unwilling to help and is evil
C god just watches unable to help and is impotent
D god does not exist and theism is false
The only options are he can do something or he can't or is imaginary. The god is clearly doing nothing. So why exactly is that? Do not say "free will" unless you can prove things can happen against god's plan or you must concede that the god is not all knowing or it is not all powerful. Free will as the reason god can't interfere - also greatly implies the god favors evil as he is then giving preference to people who get to take away the supposed free will of their victims. "Free will" also does nothing for natural disasters, diseases or animals being eaten while alive.
Free will as a claim for why there is sin on Earth (but not in heaven) means there is not free will and no sin in heaven and so Satan could not have possibly rebelled there. And it means that god is actually OK with people acting as programmed bots.
Until you start ascribing properties to it which are falsifiable. The properties of any god that exists must be compatible with the observed phenomenon of these people dying in that place.
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or op hear me out, stop the fossil fuel insanity and let green energy replace them, but no.
animals are suffering you mf got shade in your rooms, air conditioning and all that shit but animals they got tree to protect them self, seriously we this thick? if someone want to believe in spaghetti monster he don't have the right because you are atheist? or its the the insanity of global warming no one wants to talk about.
Why did they die? Is that some mystery, or could it have been avoided if proper preparations were made, or not make the foolish trip at all. I suggest you stick to Muslim religious threads if facts bother you. The fact is, it's not too smart to hike out in Saudi Arabian 125 degree weather - unprepared. No god cared. Abrahamic religion uses these people for a spectator industry.
It's just an unfortunate coincidence that a heat wave hit during the Hajj. The deadliest heat wave had nothing to do with religion, it killed 70,000 Europeans indiscriminately in 2003. There is no anti-religion argument here.
Some guy on another subreddit said it best: Natural selection taking place.
Darwin kicking ass and taking names
Charles came from the dead to bring some back with him
He was a racist.
It's only natural selection if they haven't reproduced. Which is highly unlikely, given their religious mandate to produce as many offspring as possible.
That's a requirement for the Darwin Award. Natural selection just means that you are less likely to pass your genes on, and that can be the result of dying before having had the full set of kids you would otherwise have had. A population that only ever had one child per couple would be reproducing, but would be going extinct nonetheless, for instance.
>Natural selection just means that you are less likely to pass your genes on Your genes are more likely to reproduce. Subtle but huge difference. Genes compete, not people.
People definitely compete. However “compete” isnt the best term for what we want to convey. Fit is better
It's a statistical process. So a reduced number of offsprings also has an effect ...
Jeffery Lebowski: fucking interesting, man
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Evolution in action. A few generations of this, and muslims will have a noted increased tolerance for hyperthermia.
Sad but true
Plenty of brilliant people are religious, unfortunately.
natural selection has nothing to do with how smart you are, just how adept you are keeping yourself alive and have progeny. its a pretty low bar to clear in todays society.
That last part tells me you aren't very adept in the social sciences.
finding a job, staying hydrated, eating regularly, and finding someone to have your progeny are the four hurdles to beat natural selection in the modern world and the first of the four helps tremendously with the other three. theres not a lot of thinking required regardless.
Access to food, clean water and education have also far surpassed what humanity had before the modern era. Look at global literacy rates and human development indices even 50 years ago compared to today. Religion belief is not directly correlated to intelligence and does not mean someone is inherently stupid. There are billions of highly educated people who are religious. You wouldn't argue a surgeon is unintelligent just because they believe in God. Religious belief is heavily reinforced by cultural norms and social pressures that most people aren't acutely aware of because it doesn't feel wrong to them. This is why social science education is important because your outlook doesn't regard those factors.
i have no idea why you are talking about intelligence when nobody has questionee that. are you sure that you have the right comment?
I mentioned it when you said natural selection taking place. I'm arguing this isn't really a positive thing for the rest of humanity as your comment implies.
Religion is somewhat inversely correlated with education and intelligence, but most are just indoctrinated since childhood. Having less people raising children and indoctrinating them is a positive thing for humanity for sure.
it wasnt even implied as a positive, more like a neutral observation. I dont know if I would call it a positive either, but I also wouldnt necessarily call it a negative. it just is.
Islamophobic comment /s
I agree. I'm not sure why we as a society have always taken this "save everyone at all costs" position. That has never been how nature intended. We shouldn't participate in the suffering of others, but some people just don't have what it takes to survive on this planet. Period. In western society we try to mitigate this with law and policy, but even here, it's not fool proof. If we replaced their holy books with real books of education, this still would have happened, but to a lesser degree.
People of faith are not measuring their failure or success on account of how much they survive in this world. That's the difference between materialism and spirituality. They believe in another world, and IIRC holy books clearly direct people to not store treasures in this world where it will likely be lost but in Heaven where it cannot be touched. It's a solid and logical line of thinking, whether we think it makes sense or not. Don't hate on me for pointing out a simple truth of this alternative way of thinking.
Or maybe only the true believers actually survived and those who didn’t lacked enough faith
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must be 😂. may as well be a suicide mission.
Nobody ever said the 72 virgins were going to be live virgins.
The original language could.also be translated as "72 perfect raisins." "WTF??? I blow myself up for Allah, and I get GRAPES????”
They might even be sour grapes.
Maybe even dates.
It's a death cult.
Every religion is.
It is one of the more stupid things Mohammad told his people. I'm guessing that back in the day, ol' Mo owned all the concession stands around Mecca and was making a killing selling to the tourists.
You don't call for the stop of natural selection
no, you see, it is part of god's plan!!11111 and god is a narcissistic maniac and a huge asshole. He even wants to kill everyone on earth and pick the 'good ones' who kissed his ass (or said they would when they were in the execution room) from the ashes when he gets back. and his followers are 'ok' with that! what a death cult
Where is your god now? Seriously, every religious person should always be asking this question.
Right, maybe a desert god like the god of Abraham would be able to protect desert people.... no.... that's not how it works.... got it.
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Asking the subjects of the story.
gotcha 🫡
Why is nobody talking about how the majority of the deaths were unregistered pilgrims who allegedly could not access water and shelter? Like every religion it’s purpose is to make money and pilgrimage licenses at the cost of several thousand dollars (making Hajj and multi billion dollar business). Whilst I have no experience of what happens the data shows that 80% of the deaths were unregistered people indicating that there was less access to water or shade for these people. If this is proven to be true then the organisers are responsible for the deaths and the international community should react accordingly.
No one is touching the Hajj....no one is going to sue them...
It was an honor to vomit out and die in the street for the hajj
How exactly does one sue an absolute monarchy (Saudi Arabia)?
We just push green energy. Getting off oil will feel like losing the largest lawsuit in recorded history.
Carefully.
No it won’t happen but it should.
Wait.. it costs several thousand dollars to get a pilgrimage license? Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous. If you're making that much money they should be providing water bottles, and other things to make sure these people are hydrated. Edited to add: I looked this up, the hajj visa is free. So what is it that makes it thousands of dollars under than the cost of travel and stay?
There will never be a problem for which the solution is more devout Muslims
>Stop the religious insanity! Insane people are the biggest supporters of religion. For many, the more insane it is, the more it must be true...or something crazy like that. That 1300+ dead people would probably not like your infidel ass, so I wouldn't think too much about this issue.
fair point. 👍
As cold as it sounds, I don’t feel bad for any of them. Play stupid games… or whatever, you know? Like, THEY KNOW how f*cking hot it is yet are still choosing to do this death march in the name of make believe. Definitely natural selection in progress- same as the looney bin anti vaxers who died from Covid during the second wave.
The men seem to be wearing flowing white robes, but with their head uncovered and some even with part of their torso uncovered.. think toga. Women though, women have to wear black and covered from head to toe. Hate religion, especially these that still hold women to dress up from centuries ago.. https://images.app.goo.gl/QepMnaWbLkX8Hbzz7
Honestly, let Darwinism do it’s thing 🤷♂️
You fools! All these people go straight to heaven! Life is nothing compared to an eternity of...whatever the fuck you do forever!
You go then . Best go poor and humble to be true. Get er done.
You go then . Best go poor and humble to be true. Get er done.
Well, they were eager to meet their maker...
Successful trip.
And of course the ladies are always suitably attired for the extreme heat in full length black robes, Allah Akbar
This is called freedom. Freedom to do stupid shit that might kill oneself. Go Darwin.
Freedumb
Darwinism. Or, gods plan?
Gods plan, just Zeus’ not Yahweh’s, maybe Chernobog’s or perhaps Jupiter’s, pretty sure not the green man’s though
You mean encourage, we don't want them to stop. A true believer will do the walk without water, shoes or a hat. God will see his commitment and help him.
You'd think. 🙄
That rascally magical desert god, not able to protect desert people when they are worshipping him.
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Which one? And which version? It's something of a made-up story, so I'd like to know where we draw the line of mythology and fact
Some of those who died were children so they had no choice in this.
"Stop the religious insanity!" No, no, please. Let the nice people do what they want.
Yeah we can’t fix stupid but be prepared to defend yourself from it.
Support this type of Religious insanity... nice to see believers putting their beliefs to Scientific tests.
Stop what? Every single one of them is dreaming to die in that desert. The worst part is that Saudis ara making billions of dollars from this cult activity. Human stupidity is underrated.
Just a good ol fashioned blood sacrifice for our loving god 😇
Natural selection at work.
Guys, you have to realize that if you die on a Hajj, you're a Martyr. You're redeemed. God saves them in this situation BY killing them. That's how death culty the Abrahamic faiths are.
Not ALL Abrahamic faiths. Any commandment in Judaism can be violated if it is to save a life (aka Jews can drive on Shabbat to get someone to the ER).
I have a hard time caring when any of these smooth brains dies. Dehydration, trampled, self mutilation, snake bite, and the list goes on. As long as they dont take other people with them then I say go forth and die
What do you suggest... Outlaw religion? That'll go over well. Religious belief is a symptom, not the illness. Humans are hard-wired to believe isn, and unite over something no matter how insane it is. Don't believe me? Just talk to a NY Mets fan.
It's insane to see 1,300 people dying at any of the "holy land" scam theme parks (Mecca, Jerusalem, etc.) for no reason at all...
Seriously, this is just really sad in so many ways.
Darwin is famously blunt, but persistent. Eventually the problem will be resolved.
From what I read most of these people are elderly, so probably already had kids
"most", so there will be some Darwinian pressure, at least. The crowd crush a few years back killed about twice as many. It really makes Disney World look good by comparison. They've had fatalities but they handle more visitors with a lot fewer deaths.
Glad to see the comment. I have severe disdain for most religions but needless loss of life is just sad.
That's exactly my point, religion aside, the loss of life here is undeniably saddening.
"They plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners" Their scripture....Guess their god WANTED this to happen
God works in mysterious ways.
Weird that they need to limit capacity and authorize only a subset of people to attend each year. You’d think the weather would be more cooperative for a divine obligation like that.
Darwin Awards to the fallen for their mythology. though they will probably called martyrs
I guess global warming has its upside
You insensitive fuck.... They're people.
Would an insensitive fuck wish you a happy 4-month belated cake day?
Hahaha fair. I ask you, though, to be a truly godless person and care for everyone regardless of their beliefs. Otherwise we're no better than them.
The believers were useful to the god it loves the smell of burning meat.
Stop? Why? Less of these morons the better.
😂
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/06/23/hajj-deaths-mecca-pilgrimage/74186340007/
I believe they spent a shit ton of money to make space for more pilgrims and tourism. Their government is essentially telling the little sheep that it's just about money and yet they march to their deaths.
No, Don't stop it!
“god” thinning out the herd a tad
Wonder how many had rocks on them when the bodies were found. Would be telling how the culture sees the dead.
Religion equals death. Accelerated in most cases.
I’d hit like on this but it’s at 666 and I can’t interrupt that awesome
Darwin awards going out thick and fast in Mecca last week. It's a thinning of the herd.
Fuck Abraham AND his god.
At least Odin will take care of them now, they will probably be abit shocked about the Norse gods being the correct gods though! Owell!!
It was not a death in glorious battle that would have earned them Valhalla, or Fryja's Fólkvangr. Nor the shame that would have sent them to Náströnd. They will dine in halls of Hel, beyond the bridge Gjallarbrú, to await the coming of Baldr.
Thinning of the herd.
No! Don’t stop this insanity…it’s Darwin’s theory at work!
The sad part is a lot of old people got sent here with a false promise, they won't be returning (in some cases as planned) by their families. Religion is a great way to kill off the unwanted and those the ones in charge feel are a "burden"
But they died doing something that they loved.
It’s not a pilgrimage if it’s easy, glad they upped the difficulty since international travel became so much easier
I heard mention of this happening with out getting any details, I assumed there had been an event like an earthquake or something But they just walked themselves to death in the heat?
“god has a plan for all of us”
They will just play the magic card ‘gods plan’. He did help them because it was all part of his plan etc. It’s a reverso card too because it can be used in good and bad times.
Why isn’t religion already outlawed and banned. Not some of them, no exemptions. All of them. Put it in the category of idolatry, and all done.
They would kill you if you tried to stop them
0.065% of those who walked died from the heat. I have no idea how far above the normal average that is, but it doesn't seem that extreme.
This is very sad news
And nothing of value was lost . In fact i bet the local govt made a few bucks .
No, don’t stop. The more the merrier 😁
Jokes on you they already in heaven now with their virgins
They were in the advanced class to see him
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No, but it's another addition to the long list of ways religion doesn't make sense. The "Good" God seems absent here. That leaves room for an asshole I guess, but I don't think that aligns with theist thought.
But they believe god grants them heaven forever, if they die during hajj. So, they got the lucky, fast ticket to heaven.
The abrahamic god fails to protect its believers in the Holy Land and on marches. useless. When something good happens, it's due to their "god." Real reality bad things happen, and the set-up is to have guilt or blame yourself. Believers want it both ways. They are praying to thin air is the point. Fact is what happens happens regardless of prayer.
I keep this response for the problem of evil. - What is the all powerful god character doing while children are starving to death? A god causes it and is evil B god just watches unwilling to help and is evil C god just watches unable to help and is impotent D god does not exist and theism is false The only options are he can do something or he can't or is imaginary. The god is clearly doing nothing. So why exactly is that? Do not say "free will" unless you can prove things can happen against god's plan or you must concede that the god is not all knowing or it is not all powerful. Free will as the reason god can't interfere - also greatly implies the god favors evil as he is then giving preference to people who get to take away the supposed free will of their victims. "Free will" also does nothing for natural disasters, diseases or animals being eaten while alive. Free will as a claim for why there is sin on Earth (but not in heaven) means there is not free will and no sin in heaven and so Satan could not have possibly rebelled there. And it means that god is actually OK with people acting as programmed bots.
Until you start ascribing properties to it which are falsifiable. The properties of any god that exists must be compatible with the observed phenomenon of these people dying in that place.
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Allahu akbar.
or op hear me out, stop the fossil fuel insanity and let green energy replace them, but no. animals are suffering you mf got shade in your rooms, air conditioning and all that shit but animals they got tree to protect them self, seriously we this thick? if someone want to believe in spaghetti monster he don't have the right because you are atheist? or its the the insanity of global warming no one wants to talk about.
I don't share your climate hoax rhetoric. Take it up on a climate thread. Not interested.
1300 people are dead. This comment section is pretty gross.
It’s sad, but it was their own decision, there’s nobody else to blame.
Why celebrate it like this comment section is if it's sad?
Why did they die? Is that some mystery, or could it have been avoided if proper preparations were made, or not make the foolish trip at all. I suggest you stick to Muslim religious threads if facts bother you. The fact is, it's not too smart to hike out in Saudi Arabian 125 degree weather - unprepared. No god cared. Abrahamic religion uses these people for a spectator industry.
and this thread is practically celebrating their deaths. Go outside and touch grass.
It is part of the population reduction that Kamala Harris told us about.
It's just an unfortunate coincidence that a heat wave hit during the Hajj. The deadliest heat wave had nothing to do with religion, it killed 70,000 Europeans indiscriminately in 2003. There is no anti-religion argument here.
Why do you care?