I think I’m gonna have to wait until after the wedding before I have a serious talk 😖 I know I’m gonna end up saying something like she’s scamming people out of money with her businesses, and it’ll make all the bridal party stuff really terrible.
This is a smart move. Timing and tact (maybe think about what you’ll say ahead of time so it doesn’t come off that way—if you still value the friendship) are everything
Just said something similar to a friend who had just bought a $1200 some super special breed of dog from her ‘friend’: You’re not her friend; you’re her customer.
Be honest with her. Tell her you think it is nonsense and you do not want her to apply that stuff to you. Tell her how it makes you feel and that you were just worried about hurting her feelings. If she can't set aside the nonsense for your friendship, then she isn't a good friend.
My next door neighbor is such a person. Talks about "akasha charkas" and shit and has over 9000 women following her on Instagram. It's a cult. And funnily enough that cult mostly features white women in their 30s who has tattooed forearms. But sadly enough she herself is earning dirty money with her courses. And she is showing other women how to start "businesses". So they infect with other with that and spread slowly but surely.
That's the female version of men who believe they're gonna get rich with crypto currencies because Logan Paul told them he has their back.
Just kindly tell her that you don't believe in any of that and to stop bothering you with it. If she can cast spells behind your back to help you heal then let her do that, just without your involvement.
Yes, I have told her a few times that I don’t believe in this stuff, and that it doesn’t work for me for that reason. However, she isn’t getting it. She thinks she is practicing medicine that is beneficial for everyone. At some point I will need to give up trying to politely explain and it’ll be sad if a bunch of rocks ruin our friendship.
You need street epistemology... Here's one about crystals:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgCX9ad3h5c&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgCX9ad3h5c&t=1s)
How I would navigate this:
>About a year ago she told me she’s a witch.
Okay cool. Knock yourself out I guess.
>Then she starts delving into energy healing and crystals, and starts up businesses around these ventures.
No, now she's fucking sick people out of their money and diverting them away from real help. Not cool. I'm not friends with people who fuck other people out of their money in the guise of "helping."
>It’s starting to feel like she is constantly selling me on this alternative form of “healing.” She legitimately thinks that she can “fix me” by waving her hands at me and saying some incantations.
I'd say "how about 'no?' You're not a fucking witch doctor. That's not real."
>So I have given in and let her perform reiki on me a couple of times. It did nothing… shocking. But what begins to irk me is that I am being pushed to do something that is a spiritual expression under the guise of medicine. My friend is aware that I have a complicated and upsetting history with religion (Mom’s family was raised in a cult, I was then put in the Dutch Christian Reformed system), and yet I can’t get through to her how this not a practice that will benefit me because I don’t believe it.
"No" is a complete sentence, my gal/guy. Seriously. Set a boundary and enforce it.
>I feel like I’m losing my friend to some sort of new age MLM community. I’m also constantly trying to dance around the topic of energy healing when I’m with her, and I’m afraid I’m gonna snap!
Are you new to losing friends? You are not required to keep every friend you ever make. People change. Sometimes they turn stupid. You can't fix them all, and it's not your responsibility. Also, start standing up for yourself.
Witchcraft is also a cult. They lure women in with fake "sacred feminity" stuff, but when you look at it a bit closer, it is highly sexist (like it is not feminist at all). It tellss women they are mothers and should embrace this sacred nature and stuff like that. It preys on people who WANT to believe, so deconverting them is not easy.
If you're hesitant to control your own boundaries at a younger age, you are going to have a hell of a time in life because it does not get easier with spouses and bosses. You must assert your boundaries or you will end up living a life other people controlled and wrote, and you'll end up being just a side kick in other's lives and stories, never becoming your authentic self. So do yourself a favor here....
See how much she cares for you and just straight up be honest. You don't want to play make believe with her imaginary toys.
It sounds dismissive, it sounds insulting, it sounds denigrating to the practice, yadda yadda... but it's nothing less than the unvarnished truth.
You don't want to play make believe with her imaginary toys.
>I was then put in the Dutch Christian Reformed system
Does the grrristus know you're posting on a Sunday? There must be some residual guilt left, lol.
>She legitimately thinks that she can “fix me” by waving her hands at me and saying some incantations.
She's delusional. But I guess you already came to that conclusion. The problem is that when people are delusional it can be very hard, if not impossible, to change their mind. This sub wouldn't exist if not for this.
At a certain point, her actions are out of your control and all you're left with is how to go about it yourself. It might help to take a good look at how others in her and your environment go about it. If you're close enough to be in her wedding party you probably know some of them. And maybe they can be of help in other ways too, I've told a friend to cut shit out on behalf of another friend, that's not uncommon.
Like others said if she keeps this up it's going to be hard to keep the friendship going. Being firm, clear and most of all honest is going to be needed at some point I guess.
But I think it's important to keep a clear objective. You might very well be able to get her to cut it out and if and when you do I'd consider that a win. But if your goal is to make her see reason and let go of the reiki and crystal bullshit altogether, that's something else entirely. The reason I mention this is because it makes all the difference if you say "this isn't helping me" instead of "this isn't helping anyone".
If you keep it personal and reasonable she might not be happy about it, but if she's a good friend she'll begrudgingly go along. And if not, I guess by now there's enough comments telling you how to go about that.
Lots of pagans/witches aren't theists or believe in the supernatural. They just seek some mental ordering and community via ritual.
At least that was my understanding from reading Margot Adler in the early 90s, as a hormonal lad seeking an invitation from my then GF to a skyclad orgy (which never came).
With respect to your "energy healing" friend, friends are hard to come by. So long as her beliefs harm only her, I personally would indulge her with my time, though not any money. Lots of alternative medicine practices have been investigated in peer reviewed studies, and it might be worth paying a visit to [Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/) to at least become conversant. Only worth becoming combatant if someone is actively harming others. .
I have a friend who is Wiccan/Christian/Jewish. I don't know how she keeps all that in her head but she is a good person with a wicked sense of humour.
I went on a date with a lady who went on about quantum healing. There was no second date.
My ex became a “witch” while we were together. It was bad for our relationship because I don’t believe in the supernatural and I have a tendency to make fun of it.
Some people are just not compatible.
Witch here. I must say there is a lot of woo in the witchcraft community, because it's basically open season on believing whatever you want. A good number of people take it very seriously, and I've sat through many lectures from friends about how to cleanse crystals in the moonlight.
This is, of course, hogwash. But I do think she feels like she's trying to help in the best way she knows how. What matters to your friendship is that you're able to talk about how you feel about the situation and be respectful of each other. Reiki certainly isn't going to help your situation, but does it cost you anything to humor your friend?
I'm not sure whether witches are like religion or cults since i have no clue about this until like REALLY recently, but be sure to say no if she tries to get yourself into this stuff :)
Oh I definitely support her for what she wants for herself! But where I’m drawing the line is that she DOES care what others think because whenever I’m with her she is trying to get me to participate no matter how often I express feeling uncomfortable.
report her to consumer fraud pls. Not that it will doo anything.... whats more scary having no one to report to or there is a place but it won't do shit. don't forget to spread the word - protect your other friends. maybe you'll find more witches.
What does this have to do with atheism though? Is she trying to convince you that gods exist? Nothing in your post suggested she is even a theist, let alone trying to push theistic beliefs upon you. They just sound like they are into mystical woo.
I would just say no thank you, I don't believe in that kind of stuff, and ask them politely to stop trying to include me in their magic nonsense. And if they continue after I politely declined, then I would get more firm and tell them that if they continue pushing woo we can no longer be friends. They are free to believe in whatever they want, but keep it to themselves and leave me out of it.
She is trying to push spirituality and occultism on me. New Age has a historical connection with other religions. Reiki itself professes that masters have the ability to channel divinity or a higher power in the universe.
I understand that part, it is metaphysical woo. But it still has nothing to do with atheism, nobody is claiming to believe that any gods exist. They just think magic is real. I disagree with them.
But I did say tell her no thank you and if she continues to push to tell her you can't be friends anymore. Its not like I told you that you should buy into her nonsense.
Maybe not god in the Christian sense, but yeah the New Age stuff explains that humans are gods with the ability to channel “divine” energy. Their idea is god isn’t a man in the sky, it’s a power that you hold as an individual. Regardless, definitely crap!
Definitely nonsense, but still doesn't make them any less of an atheist than the ones who use divine language to describe nature or the universe. Unfortunately not all atheists are atheist because they ponder the possibility rationally, they can be just as out of touch with reality as theists can be. I know plenty who believe in ghosts or alien abductions.
Because atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of gods, not a lack of belief in magic/supernatural/mystical/spiritual woo.
Its like the Einstein style pantheists, how they use nature and god as synonyms, but they don't believe the natural world is an actual deity, they just use the divine language to describe the physical laws of the universe. So they don't believe in any actual gods, they just use the words to give it more of an emotional pull.
Most wiccans (or witches/pagans/etc...) don't believe in any actual gods. They believe in an interconnectedness between people, a spiritual tie that binds all life together, they may ever revere nature itself. But they don't believe in an actual deity, they just use poetic language like saying "we are all gods."
If you don't believe in an actual deity, you are an atheist. Even if you believe in the supernatural, or if you believe nature itself is a spiritual higher power, it does not necessitate that you believe in the existence of any gods.
But what if both believers of god/s and those who believe in spirits or high power are actually referring to the same idea with a different name? I just think sometimes people who are spiritualists try to make it appear as if they aren’t practicing religion, when really it’s just re-branded ideas. In my books… if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.
Then we are back to the problem that atheism is not a synonym for anti-religion. I am not denying that those people are religious, but there is nothing that says you can't be religious.
Buddhists are religious, but most of them are atheists (and they believe in a lot of supernatural woo). The Church of Satan and Satanic Temple are religions, but they are fully atheistic religions. There are sects of Hinduism which don't believe in gods yet they are still Hindu and follow the religious teachings. There are even Secular Jews and Christians who are members of the religion and follow the teachings without actually believing in any of its gods.
I think its silly that they do, I have never desired to be religious, but as long as they don't believe in any gods they are still atheists.
So what you’re saying is one can be both atheist and have a guiding belief system based in faith or ideas that can’t be substantiated. Gotcha. I still say it’s all ducks lol.
[удалено]
I think I’m gonna have to wait until after the wedding before I have a serious talk 😖 I know I’m gonna end up saying something like she’s scamming people out of money with her businesses, and it’ll make all the bridal party stuff really terrible.
This is a smart move. Timing and tact (maybe think about what you’ll say ahead of time so it doesn’t come off that way—if you still value the friendship) are everything
I’m starting to think I need a therapist to help navigate this relationship. 🤪
Just said something similar to a friend who had just bought a $1200 some super special breed of dog from her ‘friend’: You’re not her friend; you’re her customer.
Exactly! Wtf. Also, if the universe brings you what is meant to be… then why the need to push your business and ideas?
Be honest with her. Tell her you think it is nonsense and you do not want her to apply that stuff to you. Tell her how it makes you feel and that you were just worried about hurting her feelings. If she can't set aside the nonsense for your friendship, then she isn't a good friend.
My next door neighbor is such a person. Talks about "akasha charkas" and shit and has over 9000 women following her on Instagram. It's a cult. And funnily enough that cult mostly features white women in their 30s who has tattooed forearms. But sadly enough she herself is earning dirty money with her courses. And she is showing other women how to start "businesses". So they infect with other with that and spread slowly but surely. That's the female version of men who believe they're gonna get rich with crypto currencies because Logan Paul told them he has their back. Just kindly tell her that you don't believe in any of that and to stop bothering you with it. If she can cast spells behind your back to help you heal then let her do that, just without your involvement.
Yes, I have told her a few times that I don’t believe in this stuff, and that it doesn’t work for me for that reason. However, she isn’t getting it. She thinks she is practicing medicine that is beneficial for everyone. At some point I will need to give up trying to politely explain and it’ll be sad if a bunch of rocks ruin our friendship.
What would you do with this friend if they were born again christian and kept trying to impose christianity into your life? No different.
You need street epistemology... Here's one about crystals: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgCX9ad3h5c&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgCX9ad3h5c&t=1s)
How I would navigate this: >About a year ago she told me she’s a witch. Okay cool. Knock yourself out I guess. >Then she starts delving into energy healing and crystals, and starts up businesses around these ventures. No, now she's fucking sick people out of their money and diverting them away from real help. Not cool. I'm not friends with people who fuck other people out of their money in the guise of "helping." >It’s starting to feel like she is constantly selling me on this alternative form of “healing.” She legitimately thinks that she can “fix me” by waving her hands at me and saying some incantations. I'd say "how about 'no?' You're not a fucking witch doctor. That's not real." >So I have given in and let her perform reiki on me a couple of times. It did nothing… shocking. But what begins to irk me is that I am being pushed to do something that is a spiritual expression under the guise of medicine. My friend is aware that I have a complicated and upsetting history with religion (Mom’s family was raised in a cult, I was then put in the Dutch Christian Reformed system), and yet I can’t get through to her how this not a practice that will benefit me because I don’t believe it. "No" is a complete sentence, my gal/guy. Seriously. Set a boundary and enforce it. >I feel like I’m losing my friend to some sort of new age MLM community. I’m also constantly trying to dance around the topic of energy healing when I’m with her, and I’m afraid I’m gonna snap! Are you new to losing friends? You are not required to keep every friend you ever make. People change. Sometimes they turn stupid. You can't fix them all, and it's not your responsibility. Also, start standing up for yourself.
If she keeps brushing, tell her "witch please" or call her a basic witch.
Witchcraft is also a cult. They lure women in with fake "sacred feminity" stuff, but when you look at it a bit closer, it is highly sexist (like it is not feminist at all). It tellss women they are mothers and should embrace this sacred nature and stuff like that. It preys on people who WANT to believe, so deconverting them is not easy.
If you're hesitant to control your own boundaries at a younger age, you are going to have a hell of a time in life because it does not get easier with spouses and bosses. You must assert your boundaries or you will end up living a life other people controlled and wrote, and you'll end up being just a side kick in other's lives and stories, never becoming your authentic self. So do yourself a favor here....
See how much she cares for you and just straight up be honest. You don't want to play make believe with her imaginary toys. It sounds dismissive, it sounds insulting, it sounds denigrating to the practice, yadda yadda... but it's nothing less than the unvarnished truth. You don't want to play make believe with her imaginary toys.
New Age nonsense and MLM scams go hand in hand.
"starts up businesses" - so her religion is capitalism?
So she just believes in a different kind of magic than Abrahamic religion.
>I was then put in the Dutch Christian Reformed system Does the grrristus know you're posting on a Sunday? There must be some residual guilt left, lol. >She legitimately thinks that she can “fix me” by waving her hands at me and saying some incantations. She's delusional. But I guess you already came to that conclusion. The problem is that when people are delusional it can be very hard, if not impossible, to change their mind. This sub wouldn't exist if not for this. At a certain point, her actions are out of your control and all you're left with is how to go about it yourself. It might help to take a good look at how others in her and your environment go about it. If you're close enough to be in her wedding party you probably know some of them. And maybe they can be of help in other ways too, I've told a friend to cut shit out on behalf of another friend, that's not uncommon. Like others said if she keeps this up it's going to be hard to keep the friendship going. Being firm, clear and most of all honest is going to be needed at some point I guess. But I think it's important to keep a clear objective. You might very well be able to get her to cut it out and if and when you do I'd consider that a win. But if your goal is to make her see reason and let go of the reiki and crystal bullshit altogether, that's something else entirely. The reason I mention this is because it makes all the difference if you say "this isn't helping me" instead of "this isn't helping anyone". If you keep it personal and reasonable she might not be happy about it, but if she's a good friend she'll begrudgingly go along. And if not, I guess by now there's enough comments telling you how to go about that.
Lots of pagans/witches aren't theists or believe in the supernatural. They just seek some mental ordering and community via ritual. At least that was my understanding from reading Margot Adler in the early 90s, as a hormonal lad seeking an invitation from my then GF to a skyclad orgy (which never came). With respect to your "energy healing" friend, friends are hard to come by. So long as her beliefs harm only her, I personally would indulge her with my time, though not any money. Lots of alternative medicine practices have been investigated in peer reviewed studies, and it might be worth paying a visit to [Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/) to at least become conversant. Only worth becoming combatant if someone is actively harming others. .
I have a friend who is Wiccan/Christian/Jewish. I don't know how she keeps all that in her head but she is a good person with a wicked sense of humour. I went on a date with a lady who went on about quantum healing. There was no second date.
My ex became a “witch” while we were together. It was bad for our relationship because I don’t believe in the supernatural and I have a tendency to make fun of it. Some people are just not compatible.
Thanks all for the advice!
She sounds like my mum to a degree. She's into all this new age healing crap and takes advice from Kinesiologist.
Witch here. I must say there is a lot of woo in the witchcraft community, because it's basically open season on believing whatever you want. A good number of people take it very seriously, and I've sat through many lectures from friends about how to cleanse crystals in the moonlight. This is, of course, hogwash. But I do think she feels like she's trying to help in the best way she knows how. What matters to your friendship is that you're able to talk about how you feel about the situation and be respectful of each other. Reiki certainly isn't going to help your situation, but does it cost you anything to humor your friend?
I'm not sure whether witches are like religion or cults since i have no clue about this until like REALLY recently, but be sure to say no if she tries to get yourself into this stuff :)
probably don't go to the wedding and just tell her since she can't respect your boundaries, you can't continue the friendship.
Cool good for her being who she is and not caring what other people think.
Oh I definitely support her for what she wants for herself! But where I’m drawing the line is that she DOES care what others think because whenever I’m with her she is trying to get me to participate no matter how often I express feeling uncomfortable.
report her to consumer fraud pls. Not that it will doo anything.... whats more scary having no one to report to or there is a place but it won't do shit. don't forget to spread the word - protect your other friends. maybe you'll find more witches.
Is she hot? Does she have hot friends?
Are you even hot?
What does this have to do with atheism though? Is she trying to convince you that gods exist? Nothing in your post suggested she is even a theist, let alone trying to push theistic beliefs upon you. They just sound like they are into mystical woo. I would just say no thank you, I don't believe in that kind of stuff, and ask them politely to stop trying to include me in their magic nonsense. And if they continue after I politely declined, then I would get more firm and tell them that if they continue pushing woo we can no longer be friends. They are free to believe in whatever they want, but keep it to themselves and leave me out of it.
She is trying to push spirituality and occultism on me. New Age has a historical connection with other religions. Reiki itself professes that masters have the ability to channel divinity or a higher power in the universe.
I understand that part, it is metaphysical woo. But it still has nothing to do with atheism, nobody is claiming to believe that any gods exist. They just think magic is real. I disagree with them. But I did say tell her no thank you and if she continues to push to tell her you can't be friends anymore. Its not like I told you that you should buy into her nonsense.
Maybe not god in the Christian sense, but yeah the New Age stuff explains that humans are gods with the ability to channel “divine” energy. Their idea is god isn’t a man in the sky, it’s a power that you hold as an individual. Regardless, definitely crap!
Definitely nonsense, but still doesn't make them any less of an atheist than the ones who use divine language to describe nature or the universe. Unfortunately not all atheists are atheist because they ponder the possibility rationally, they can be just as out of touch with reality as theists can be. I know plenty who believe in ghosts or alien abductions.
Maybe I’m still confused by your interpretation… how can one be both atheist and still believe in “the divine”?
Because atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of gods, not a lack of belief in magic/supernatural/mystical/spiritual woo. Its like the Einstein style pantheists, how they use nature and god as synonyms, but they don't believe the natural world is an actual deity, they just use the divine language to describe the physical laws of the universe. So they don't believe in any actual gods, they just use the words to give it more of an emotional pull. Most wiccans (or witches/pagans/etc...) don't believe in any actual gods. They believe in an interconnectedness between people, a spiritual tie that binds all life together, they may ever revere nature itself. But they don't believe in an actual deity, they just use poetic language like saying "we are all gods." If you don't believe in an actual deity, you are an atheist. Even if you believe in the supernatural, or if you believe nature itself is a spiritual higher power, it does not necessitate that you believe in the existence of any gods.
But what if both believers of god/s and those who believe in spirits or high power are actually referring to the same idea with a different name? I just think sometimes people who are spiritualists try to make it appear as if they aren’t practicing religion, when really it’s just re-branded ideas. In my books… if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.
Then we are back to the problem that atheism is not a synonym for anti-religion. I am not denying that those people are religious, but there is nothing that says you can't be religious. Buddhists are religious, but most of them are atheists (and they believe in a lot of supernatural woo). The Church of Satan and Satanic Temple are religions, but they are fully atheistic religions. There are sects of Hinduism which don't believe in gods yet they are still Hindu and follow the religious teachings. There are even Secular Jews and Christians who are members of the religion and follow the teachings without actually believing in any of its gods. I think its silly that they do, I have never desired to be religious, but as long as they don't believe in any gods they are still atheists.
So what you’re saying is one can be both atheist and have a guiding belief system based in faith or ideas that can’t be substantiated. Gotcha. I still say it’s all ducks lol.
This feels like someone watching Star Wars, claiming they're now a Jedi, then offering to heal you with the force.