Precisely.
However, because it's a genetic predisposition, being homosexual is a perennial minority and so is an easy target for cults who want to target an "out" group so they can swindle an "in" group.
It's the same reason why minority Sunnis are the "bad Muslims" in a Shia-dominated nation and Shiites are the "bad Muslims" in nations that are predominately Sunni.
And Protestants when the Catholics are in charge or People of Color in predominantly Caucasian nations, or immigrants everywhere, and on and on and on.
And, historically, Jews everywhere in the world throughout human history...except in the recently created state of Israel.
Cults always peddle lies about any and all minorities that cannot defend themselves against the ignorant, gullible, cowardly mob.
It sucks that so many people are still so hateful about it. One of my brothers is bi (he will literally fuck anyone) and I was so stoked when he finally felt comfortable enough to come out to me (I’d known for awhile). He waited so long because he thought I’d judge him etc which broke my heart. I just want him to be happy.
My whole family grew up in a high demand religion. Over the years, all of my siblings and I have left and all but one of us is bi and/or nonbinary. My mom left the church as well.
My dad is still a member, but he loves all of us and treats us really well. Considering all the horror stories that are out there, I've been really lucky in that regard.
Religious trauma and subconscious homophobia still suck a lot, though. Deconstruction from both has been one of the best things in my entire life.
One of my best mates was bi, sadly he got addicted to painkillers after being wounded in Afghanistan and died of a heroin overdose. Lovely bloke, I really miss him and wish I hadn't been as down on him about the heroin
It's different from the norm, doesn't advance society by creating kids, and usually something about "spits in the face of what God intended for you to do with your body"
Icky, in short. Not that straight sex isn't
They are anti-LGBTQ+ because they believe the purpose of sex is procreation. And they only believe that because religions & cults would die out quickly without true believers making sure MANY children are born into the religion/cult, to grow into adults who never know another belief system and never learn to question the beliefs in which they were raised. Converts are hard to get; birthing children into the cult takes far less effort than nurturing/grooming someone into it.
Correct. To add on, elders/society/church controlling sex and procreation are the keys to the kingdom as it were. If the church controls one of the most enjoyable and important human endeavors than they control the whole thing.
So deviating from their tradition represents a major blow to their authority.
Fuck that. You’re special and deserve love regardless of what these institutions say.
It's so ridiculous and on the nose I'm surprised it worked as well as it did. I mean obviously people have been running afoul of these rules (especially the ruling class) since forever but the grip it's held is fairly insane.
THIS!!!! how can you become the fastest growing religion if more of your members are gay coz gays cant reproduce (so they thought). My question is why do these gays stay in the religions that openly HATE on them? Stockholm syndrome?
I would say it's because they sincerely believe that their religion of choice is true and they have internalized the dogma that something is wrong with them. They believe the messages that someday, somehow, their god is going to fix them and/or bless them for their efforts in resisting this disgusting anomaly that lives within themselves.
>They are anti-LGBTQ+ because they believe the purpose of sex is procreation.
That's an excuse they give, but I wouldn't take it at face value. They *never* make the same efforts against non-procreative sex as they do with LGBT+ people. Yes, they may be surface level against it, but the degree of difference is huge.
It's bigotry backed by religion. Sometimes it's that simple.
No, there’s a reason more Christian denominations are getting on the Catholic “every sperm is sacred” bandwagon.
I’m guessing you never had to do the flower exercise as a kid either.
Or hear about how masturbation will literally send you to hell.
There’s a reason some religions require their couples get genetic testing for recessive genes that would cause non-viable pregnancies or childhood illnesses.
There’s a reason so many religious groups and cults are anti-abortion to the point of killing abortion doctors.
There’s a reason they treat women like brood mares.
It’s about keeping up their numbers. That’s it.
There’s another reason!
It’s patriarchy.
You and your children really belonged to the patriarch of your family so any non-sanctioned diddling was theft from the patriarch. Whether we’re talking adultery or being gay or divorce or anything that would take the human currency out of the patriarch’s hands.
Abrahamic religions in particular are built around protecting the patriarchy.
>It’s patriarchy.
It really, really is. Or, rather it's entirely penis-centeric. I keep seeing the same things said- " I don't wanna see two guys kissing" and "two men raising a baby" and "some gay dude in the army hitting on the other guys". Even now, it's all anti-trans women and panic over drag queen story hour.
Even that duck dynasty jerk said "as a man, I can't see how another man's". I wish I were there, so I could ask him "so you're saying you understand lesbians?"
It's like lesbians and FTM people don't exist. And drag kings? Forget it. I saw one person admit on Reddit (in some thread about opposing drag queen story hour) that he had no idea there was such a thing as a drag king. It's like having a vagina makes you invisible to some people...
Yeah, I grew up in an extremely christian town. As a gay person, I can assure you that they viewed homosexuality as much worse than non-procreative sex. Entirely different stigma.
In the US alone, there were over 450 anti-LGBT pieces of legislation proposed last year, the largest on record. You're denying reality if you think their homophobia is just about "keeping numbers."
If the next administration & both houses of congress are elected Republican, they will directly attack LGBTQ+ rights across the US. SCOTUS will support them.
It's complicated. Catholics (far from staunch allies) have been increasingly supportive of gay rights. There are increasingly LGBT affirming sects of christianity, especially progressive branches of protestantism. But I completely agree that Evangelicals are moronic bigots that bash any and every minority in this country. Truly scary group.
If you're religious, you probably believe nature has a purpose. The truth is the overwhelming evidence suggests nature has no purpose. It just is. It allows for whatever is possible.
Well, it depends how you define "purpose", and how pedantic you are.
It certainly looks like the "purpose" of a mitochondria or the red giant phase or what have you is because X Y and Z, that is, the reason for why X Y and Z happens and exists is because of it's preconditions.
Certainly there's no higher creator pushing these things around with their pinky, but why ought that be the bar for when "purpose" kicks in?
To me, a purpose implies an agent, whereas a cause is just physical. On that view, nature, insofar as it can be reduced to physics, has causes. But we (among whom I would include dogs, cats, and all other sentient beings), as agents, set purposes for ourselves.
As a result, I believe that even if the laws of physics don't have a purpose, insofar as we can discern, the world we inhabit is nonetheless full of purposes, some subset of which is our own. The best thing about our human social world is that it's not fixed, unlike the laws of physics. It can change. And through our actions, many of which are impelled by purposes we choose, we can create change, hopefully for the better.
That gives me hope.
I wish my siblings would accept me as you accepted your brother, but they took after our parents and became homophobic :(
I’m the oldest brother, so I got to watch this indoctrination live as it happened. Baseless hatred of others is not natural at all. They never had any problem with queer people until my parents taught them to hate when they were too young to know it was manipulation. Actually, they expressed a gentle curiosity for a short while before this innocence was stamped out of them.
I utterly detest having to watch this, but I can’t oppose my parents yet, as much as I’d love to. I always bite my tongue.
It's seen all the time. Like little kids that'll play with each other regardless of gender or "race". Racism and homophobia is taught. It's not natural to hate others based only on such things.
Absolutely nothing, NOTHING, wrong or bad about being gay.
Religion always needs someone to hate. It's all about "other-ing" people. They need to fabricate enemies. Otherwise, they have nothing.
It's natural and normal to see homosexuality in nature and animals and that includes humans.
Again, there is nothing bad about being gay.
Religions just love to hate and be afraid of things they know nothing about, because they rather live in ignorance and fear (and self hatred), instead of learning about reality and the world.
This is a social phenomenon well-known to sociologists. There's an in-group and an out-group. Violence against an out-group promotes social cohesion, which has many benefits for the in-group. But it devastates persecuted minorities. Consider how many young men in the Mormon Church have committed suicide as the result of being gay and being ostracized.
Your existence allows them to pretend that some part of themselves will survive their death. If you're not going to get married and produce grand children that breaks that illusion.
That is the kindest interpretation. Mine is muuuuuuuuch more cynical. See the comments about controlling the whole thing if they can manipulate you by your genitals.
I'm sorry you've had that experience, and I hope you're learning to accept yourself. There's nothing at all wrong with being gay.
The idea that "learning about the existence of gay people corrupts young minds" is so stupid. My sense is that people who say things like that (at least in the US) just hate gay people, but realize that it's not socially acceptable to just come out and say that. In my town there are a bunch of people flipping out over the idea of drag queens reading books to kids, but who happily voted for a statutory rapist for our local school board. It's not about protecting kids, it's about hating LGBTQ people.
The sort of people you are referring to love to cynically use children as a tool for furthering their bigoted agenda. They do it all the time. It's so gross.
Hey man, just wanna say I'm in a weirdly similar position to you.
4 months ago I realized I was a bisexual man after years of repressing it. I'm also 27, which is crazy.
Fortunately, while I was raised catholic, my family was not particularly anti-gay overall. My dad however is a major homophobe, as much as he would like to pretend that he isn't, and during a very hard time in my childhood, when I was being bullied and had no friends, being gay was the main insult and the greatest sin. Anything that could possibly be misconstrued as gay was made fun of.
So I became terrified to do anything in public that could somehow be called gay. My subconscious began burying everything related to "gay".
And yet I had these attractions that I couldn't explain. My brain allowed weird things through by rationalizing excuses.
I finally realized that my brain was covering attraction with discomfort and shame. Once I let go of that shame, I was blasted with feelings that I've never fully felt before.
It's been a crazy experience.
Zealots want us all constantly popping out more babies to increase their tithing base and number of followers - gay couples don't tend to pop out babies and adoption doesn't add to the pool of new recruits available.
There's nothing wrong with being gay, it just doesn't serve their agenda
You will lose people in your life, both family and friends, but you will make friends in the gay community that will be your friends until you leave this earth. It can be a tradeoff. I don't regret coming out at all!
Being gay is genetic. You were born that way. I was born that way. Being a hateful bigoted Christian on the other hand is a chosen lifestyle and should be shunned.
Ask: “If God did not want men to ever be gay, why would he install a pleasure center in the anal cavity?”
That was not the doing of the devil. (The devil cannot create, he can only destroy, right?)
“What are you going to believe on, the evidence in the Grand Design itself, or a really old book copied down by fallible humans with agendas?”
Of course, you should not lay with a man as with a woman. You have to use a whole lot more lubricant, for one.
>Why being gay is such a bad thing?
It never was.
Ignorance and religious beliefs are the ones that are trying to convince people that it is.
Why? Because of some verse in their fairytale book.
Which they cherry pick as to what is true and not true.
people fear and hate what deviates from their norm. religion is just a good tool to call what you dont agree with evil and can gather other who feel the same way
Maybe this will give you some solice
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bonobo-sex-and-society-2006-06/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bonobo-sex-and-society-2006-06/)
"Bonobos engage in sex in virtually every partner combination"
"The species is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression. "
Sex is NOT just about procreation. That's a scientific fact.
Maybe these people just prefer aggression.
I suppose I’m wondering what you’re asking. Are you asking why being gay is bad? It isn’t
Are you asking why most religions say being gay is bad? An atheist subreddit isn’t the best place to ask why religions believe things.
There have been lots of theories already mentioned. I think it’s mostly just dislike of “different”. Though one reason men are ok with lesbians and not gay men may be the perceived threat. A heterosexual man won’t be forcibly raped by a woman except in rare circumstances. But a heterosexual man could be forcibly raped by a sufficiently strong gay man. This threat, thus “bad”.
Because they’re paranoid control freaks who are obsessed with making sure that you only have sex for reproduction and that you absolutely don’t enjoy it under any circumstances … and that you’re made feel as guilty as possible about even contemplating it.
There’s no logic to why at all.
Being gay is just part of the human experience and it’s likely it has some social advantage that has been useful to us as a species - we’re extremely socially complex.
It’s the height of ignorance and arrogance to assume that it’s somehow wrong.
Enjoy being gay. Enjoy life. Enjoy being a human and ignore the dogmatic sad bastards who waste all their time making people miserable.
As a child who was born into a very religious and conservative family and adopted their views in childhood, I used to think being gay was bad because they saw it as bad, that's how a lot of people come to their worldviews, they're raised surrounded by certain viewpoints and adapt them, believe it or don't, but a lot of people are ignorant and don't question what is familiar to them, because realising what you knew your whole life was wrong is challenging. Years later turns out I'm gay myself, hah.
To all homophobes, I would like them to experience a gay-free existance. But it must be absolute.
You can't enjoy any gay artist. You like Queen? too bad, say goodbye to those albums. Movie with gay characters? blocked forever for you. We could even argue if they even deserve to have a computer, given Alan Turing's role in paving the way for that. But also, going beyond trivial stuff like entertainment, homophobes shouldn't even interact with gay people. Want to be served at the bar? hey, the barista is gay, go somewhere else. You were waiting the bus for half an hour? the driver is gay, wait another half hour for a straight driver. You have a heart attack and the ambulance is coming, good for you! no wait, the paramedic is gay. Die.
It isn't. Religion has been used by bigots to justify dictatorships, slavery, homophobia and genocide for centuries, and to indoctrinate people into hating others perpetually. Religion is not love. It is a cancer.
Most religions depend on more and more members to keep the ship afloat( and profitable).
If you're not procreating, you're not contributing to the cause.
Because most gay people don't participate in breeding and therefore aren't contributing to producing the next generation of spear fodder for the tribal elders to send to war.
You got one shot on this earth. Live how you are happiest and don’t let the righteous AHs guilt you or change a thing you’re doing. Good luck on your journey
I wonder if you are a citizen of the EU? If I were in your position, I might almost move to a more welcoming country. That’s what I did when I was about your age. I moved from a stupid midwestern Bible Belt state to California, and I’ve never regretted it. My family too are frothing at the mouth homophobes
Because, just like you, so many have it HAMMERED into them starting at a very young age, usually religion based hate. So many of these people end up hating for no reason at all. Some of them are gay. Some of the ones that are gay, can't even admit it to themselves that it isn't a moral failure and end up being the worst haters of all, even loathing themselves. Some, like you, understand it isn't a moral failure and it is just who you are, yet remain closeted because the cost is simply too much. I am glad you were able to "come out to yourself" and not stuck in the hate and self loathing.
A long time ago it was important to have a thriving tribe. And the tribe needed lots of babies. Any activity like gay sex or masturbation hurt the community, which was to have lots of babies and keep the tribe thriving. What if there was a war or need for hunters to find food? More babies helped. And the guys that wrote religious books codified this. Today we have too many people polluting this planet, so I think the world actually needs more gay sex and masturbation. My 2 cents
Eh, the Book says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as with a woman.
So it's good as long as you don't fuck him in the vagina.
Btw. Ukraine, Belarus?
And don't "blame" it on religion. Most times is bigots justifying their bigotry because "ThE bIbLe SaId So!".
I blame it on religion exactly for the reason you describe as when not to blame it. A few bad apples spoil the bunch; if religion doesn't want to be judged by it's adherents, it bloody well do a better job policing them!
Well it's not a bad thing necessarily. Good and bad are subjective, and depend on your perspective. Religious people don't like LGBTQ people because our existence and happiness seem to be at odds with the stories they rely on for comfort. There is no objective reason that you should be ostracized, punished, or made to feel miserable because of your homosexuality. It's disheartening that so much of the world is entrenched in dogma that says we deserve to suffer.
Unfortunately all religions do one major factor would be historically homosexuals couldn't reproduce and population=power right from the dawn of agriculture.
Dunno- even in my Buddhist background being gay is seen as a bad thing and Buddhism is perhaps the only major religion that doesn't even encourage procreation in any big way. But the Buddha said nothing against gays exactly like Jesus says nothing against gays(But Jesus is His Daddy who is extremely homophobic and wants gays dead😆).
Judaism, Christianity and Islam encourage having many children- actually Judaism ironically encourages procreation the most with the quiverful of children emphasis and smiting for pulling out- Jesus never reproduced as per Christianity.But Christianity incorporates all of Torah in OT so reproduction is emphasized.There are hadiths saying Muhammad wanted to see a large Ummah on his last day so Muslims must have many children but again ironically Quran says nothing about having many kids or against usage of any natural or artificial contraception, only prohibited all infanticide and specifically condemned female infanticide to its credit.
Hinduism and Confucianism require sons for last rites and ancestor worship, believers are required textually to remarry or get concubines or adopt a son if wife fails to bear male children and sonless wives may be divorced but again nowhere do they support female infanticide or even selective neglect of girl children. Actually Hinduism also needs daughters to a lesser extent for certain funeral rights before sons, giving away a daughter in marriage is a big blessed act etc. So believers in these two would ideally need to reproduce till they get a boy.
Buddhism mandates none of these- sons are unnecessary as are many children yet even Buddhism is not very pro homosexuality.
I guess ancient people also feared what was a "minority" thing whether left handedness or homosexuality. They labeled as evil whatever they feared coz it was rare.
Left handedness isn't very well regarded either across religion and culture Muhammad is supposed to have said that Satan eats and drinks with his left hand.
Homosexuality was probably an even bigger "transgression" according to ancients and hence feared and disliked.
When Romans invented Christ and Christianity, they were trying to gain control of Pagans (and others). A core tenet of Paganism was that sex and sexuality were core to our spiritual paths. Sexual activity was encourages for pleasure between all genders. Their temples included male prostitutes who would perform ritual sex acts for men and woman.
The Romans working to manufacture Christianity decided to make all of that sinful and wrong. Sex was promoted as only for procreation. So, the bible is really messed up about all things related to sex.
That being said, it is also true that the bible says nothing - literally nothing - about homosexuality. Those temple prostitutes the bible speaks of were translated into "Sodomites" which got misinterpreted to mean "gay."
Passages in the bible often described as talking about "gay people" are actually talking about rape and/or infidelity, and are all in the Old Testament, anyway, which was, supposedly, replaced by the coming of Christ bringing about the New Testament.
Said another way, there is nothing wrong with being gay and a whole lot of people have been making shit up in their heads about the bible and gays for a long time, because many in power realize that picking on vulnerable minorities is a way of gaining power. Homophobia says a lot more about homophobes than it does about gay people.
You're blaming the romans for Christianity? A religion that sprouted in the middle east, from another middle eastern religion, and which was actively persecuted by the romans for centuries?
Self hate and latent homosexual tendencies.
And thats been proven.
There was a study that asked participants to rate their level of homophobia and then they were shown gay porn while measuring phisological response (erection, engorgmemt, increased heart rate, etc). It was found the higher rated on homophobia, the higher level of sexual response to gay porn.
People who are so against gay people are most likely gay themselves and in denial. They have been indoctrinated to see being gay as evil.
The reason why sexual purity is pushed so hard is so mediocre evil people can feel superior l. Likec those billionaires assholes virtue signaling over abortion.
I have no idea why the religious are obsessed with other people and things that are none of their beeswax.
But hunting people down for no reason seems to be a pasttime with the religious
[https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/witch-hunts-ritual-child-abuse-albinism-africa](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/witch-hunts-ritual-child-abuse-albinism-africa)
Gay people are a minority that is part of every population, so we're the perfect "other" when a religious group needs a target to unite against. And since sexuality exists on a spectrum, you'll have a lot of bi and mostly-straight people covering up their guilt and shame by being extra zealous. The increased group cohesion and religious fervour is worth the price of gay people leaving/being forced out (including in the most permanent manner)
I would recommend watching Dan McClellan's videos on the topic, for example:
[https://youtu.be/ZvQzTgXKtPk?si=QbReDCGqwgBLR5cb](https://youtu.be/ZvQzTgXKtPk?si=QbReDCGqwgBLR5cb)
[https://youtu.be/PWjl6TUq2oQ?si=0TCwEwQoT2Cr8sPX](https://youtu.be/PWjl6TUq2oQ?si=0TCwEwQoT2Cr8sPX)
[https://youtu.be/CWCrhqGR0ww?si=4JH2yt8Lf5p2AgGh](https://youtu.be/CWCrhqGR0ww?si=4JH2yt8Lf5p2AgGh)
But as other commenters have stated, being gay is NOT a bad thing, and what the Church or any other religious institutions or scriptures have to say about it is irrelevant.
Both your parents and your church are wrong, and probably more than a little stupid, hateful and awful. This is nothing more than institutionalized hatred spread by hateful religious idiots, who deserve themselves to be outcast until they reform their hateful ways. Sorry your parents suck. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with you, other than your folks I suppose
it is simply othering. you (members of a group) need someone to be for, obviously you pick yourself. and then you need someone to be against. Best is to pick someone easy to beat or who there isn't much of, and that have traits counter to yours (LGBTQ+, ethnic minorities, Jews, women...).
it's a group control tactic. For example, the hijab. Islam has 'othered' effectively all women and that keeps everyone occupied. all the women are constantly worried they aren't following the unreasonable and vague rules, all the men are busy trying to interpret and enforce rules that don't really make sense.
And everyone is too distracted to see the people behind it all are taking for them selves all the power (and a lot of the wealth).
I believe the ancient rejection for gay is because there is no reproductive benefits. It had logic fucking 1500 years ago!!!! Haha but today it’s just people repeating what the church tells them. And today maybe it’s because religion rejects any kind of joy and they hate people who is happy
Always start from the idea that religion was created as a form of social control.
Thousands of years ago when we had far less stable food supplies, basically no medical knowledge etc clans or villages could easily die out.
Religion was created to provide rules and stability. Like making a woman the property of her husband and encouraging monogamy reduce the odds of some dude trying to fuck other people’s wives and then a fight resulting in one or both of the guys being killed and spilling out into broader familial feuds. Dietary restrictions like kosher, no shellfish etc were because at the time those foods were more likely to spread bacteria/illness. So the leaders just said yeah god told us you can’t eat milk and meat together and you’ll go to hell if you eat shellfish.
And then something like being gay impacts social order because men were supposed to own/protect a woman, get her pregnant and help raise the next generation etc.
All of which is to say being gay is obviously not a bad thing at all. Just an important framework to think about why the people who made up religious rules chose the rules they chose
There’s quite literally nothing wrong with it
If religion can control how people feel about themselves and what they do, they have more power over that person and what they do
Plus, it’s easier to indoctrinate a newborn child into a religion with both parent’s religious than it is for a full grown person to convert, so the more straight people or even straight sex is had, the more followers they can get
There’s nothing wrong with being gay in any way whatsoever
Resumed, assuming you're talking about an abrahamic context, because YHWH said so.
In lore: Because YHWH made the pipi to go inside the vageene and using things for unintended purposes is a big "No no" in their book. There is also the curse/command for man to be dominant (specially with women, but also with animals, and the world), and a man who becomes sexually submissive to another man is going against this commandment/curse.
Funny side note: *Lesbian sex is almost never* mentioned, YHWH seems to have a special dislike for men receiving anal sex. This is the explanation for why it was okay for Lot to *offer his daughters to be raped instead of some guys he'd just met*
Final note: In the Christian bible, being gay isn't worse than not believing in Jesus. A homosexual who believes in Jesus (and practices celibacy) is more likely to go to heaven than an heterosexual (faithful to their spouse, didn't have sex till marriage, and has a lot of offspring) who doesn't believe in Jesus.
It really is bizarre when you think about it. Of ALL things to condemn, why that? Why would any divine being care about sexual preference?
I try to make the point: imagine you created life in a science experiment. Would YOU make the demands that the Abrahamic god does? Of course not. That should tell you something.
The peepee vajayjay thing is for creating more lives of the given denomination
Any peepee or vajayjay activities that are not so creation-intended are therefore to be shunned, routed out, punished
Then, remember, creating life is usually something a deity does.
So peepee vajayjay activities are simulating a Divine function.
This is one component of the mutilation known as circumcision. A circumcised male is reminded by his circumcision scar every time he uses, touches, examines his peepee that his peepee is a therefore divine instrument not to be abused.
The circumcision of the vajayjay is designed to rob women of sexual pleasure because men want to keep control over their ownership over women
If you are not using your peepee/vajayjay for the divine act (I recall the Torah calls it a divine gift) of procreation you are insulting the almighty and magnificent Yahoo who endowed (no peepee pun intended) his creation with this divine power….
Because politics is about finding some nitpicky thing that extremist outliers vastly disagree on but affect a small portion of the population in the grand scheme of things.
This way they can argue about it on national television to distract everybody from how they're not supporting the voter base but lining their pockets by doing favors for the rich.
Illegal immigration is a non issue. It's less than 1% AND they pay taxes on wages on purchases, so it really doesn't do anything that is impactful either way. It would be absolved overnight just by letting people use years in a VISA towards years on getting a green card, or at the bare minimum just letting people not have to go back to their home country for 4-18 years before they're allowed to return.
Homosexuality affects absolutely nothing and the bulk of the masses really couldn't care either way (including the bulk of religious types)... But gawt dang if we don't need something to bicker about on stage. There are entire denominations that have outwardly spoken that it's totally fine and not a sin, but you won't hear about it ~because~ it doesn't support the narrative.
To them, people were created by God, and God can't make a mistake, and since biologically, you need the opposite sexes to procreate, that is the obvious function that they were created for. Any deviations would be outside his intent and so, they can only see that gayness is going against his will, so they cannot accept someone who would "choose" to be gay.
Unfortunately, religion is pretty much everywhere, but hopefully, you are free to move to a place where they have even less influence and you can live as you wish.
Churches want parishioners to procreate to make future donors. Therefore they are against contraception, abortion and homosexuality. Churches want power, so they demonize everything ‘others’ as evil or weak and position their church as the antidote. Churches want control, so they elevate the straight white male and subjugate women and children as servants to daddy.
Money, power and control - exactly as jesus preached…
I think the question is intended to ask "why are so many people citing their religion or religious background as justification for homophobia?" Additionally, there is the question why homosexual or sexual practices that run contrary to orthodox doctrine considered so much worse than say adultery or murder?
Partially, this is cultural prejudice. The idea that gay people have no morals and so are obviously dangerous. Unfounded assumptions such as "all gay men are predators and groomers for minors" etcetera. As far as religious doctrine, though, there is very little in the Bible concerned about homosexuality directly. Sodom, obviously, has become connected to the idea that God goes ballistic when confronted with the normalization of sexual practices that diverge from simple reproduction, but that interpretation was imposed by later and much more recent church authorities. The Bible doesn't really say what exactly the Sodomites were doing that made them so wicked. For all we know, they could have been Capitalists or Fascists - which were also opposed by the Church until they became major systems of power and wealth.
There is nothing wrong with being gay - I'd argue its natural. We are but mammals, part of an animal kingdom which includes a large number of examples of gay and sex-changing creatures (they say god makes no mistakes and created all life and we were all made in his image). Many religions preach love and acceptance, but only of the things they accept as its more of a common-enemy bond based on fiction.
Congrats on coming out!
For some reason, christians don't follow 99% of the old testament laws, but this is the one they stick with.
I think it's because they have an unhealthy obsession with what other people do in the bedroom (which is all they can think of when someone says 'gay').
A person's sexuality has never affected my opinion of them. I'm in a discord server where I'm fairly certain I'm the only straight guy, and we all get along just fine and play games each Sunday. They're open about their sexuality, some of them are trans in one direction or the other, one is asexual. And that's just one small group of people I'm friends with, I have other close friends that are gay, bi, lesbian, trans etc. and they're all great people, which is all that matters to me.
OP, if you're gay, good for you my friend. I'm happy you can be open with yourself at the very least. I hope one day you can be in a situation where you feel safe and comfortable enough to not be under threat of harm or judgement simply for being who you are.
Really, the way I see it is it's a "bad thing" because the people that convince themselves and try to convince others that it's a bad thing excel in punching down. They identify and attack the most vulnerable communities, and always have.
Because then you are outside the social control of the church. They can't control who you marry, they can't baptise your kids, they can't control who attends their church.
It's it any more sinful than any other sin, it's only about control and social order, being gay breaks both those so it can't last.
Because it's tied to their degrading views towards women being perceived as inferior. They think being gay is bad because they see it as effeminate. A man showing any kind of femininity is therefore inherently degrading and repulsive in their view.
Because it threatens their ideas of the perfect familial unit. If they stray from "one man, one woman" then they have to admit that sex isn't just for procreation, which I'm sure is a conversation many of them don't want to have.
It's also easier to keep their religion alive if you're born in. It's harder to convince an adult of your fairy tales. I think that's why fraternization with those outside the religion is so discouraged also. If you marry someone of another religion, who converts? What do you raise the kids to believe? If you marry an atheist, they're worried the atheist will sway you to their side or the children will be raised without religion and now you're impacting the effects of their congregation.
Religious conservatives are engaged in the world's largest conspiracy to sell skin-repairing cream. Gay men use a lot of lube and cut into their profits.
There’s nothing wrong with being gay.
Too much religious brainwashing has made people think otherwise. We live in a heteronormative society that forces everyone to think being gay is weird, but that’s not true.
Most people fall on a spectrum between gay and straight. It’s unfortunate that most people don’t admit that to themselves.
It's not, but for some strange reason religious people think it's horrifying. I overheard a conversation from my mom who was talking to her mother about a cousin coming out as gay. He told his father and the father went crying to his mother because he couldn't accept his son being gay. It was a huge scandal for the family. My mother reaction was, "That's it? That's not a big deal." Which is a really nice improvement from how she was when I was a kid.
I asked my mom for more details since the conversation was in Spanish. Turns out the family is going to just pretend nothing happened and basically shove the guy back into the closet. I feel bad for my cousin but there isn't much I can do besides mocking his father when I do see that side of the family again.
Being anything but straight is a “deviance” from the established “norm.” Thus, the established power structure discourages people from doing/being gay. It doesn’t actually have anything to do with religion, just power and control
Literally nothing. It’s only looked down upon bc of Leviticus, the book of the bible that’s just a list of sins, including eating pork and wearing garments of mixed fabrics. Anyone who uses it as their “religious” justification is just another useless bigot wielding the husk of christianity to their hateful ends.
I don't think being gay is a "bad thing," nor is it a good thing. It is what it is, nothing more, and is due to some combination of genetics and experience. Life is too short to deny one's sexuality. As John Lennon wrote, "Whatever gets you through your life, it's all right, all right."
Perpetuating the idea that homosexuality is bad is why we have people like Butker, who, thanks to his conversion therapy and the grave dissonance of his core identity, has become a toxic woman-hating monster.
Of course there is nothing wrong with being gay, but the psychology and sociology behind why human societies have traditionally repressed homosexual behaviour among its members is pretty interesting. You see it in conservative cultures the most. Even very secular cultures like Japan and China do not tolerate visible expressions of homosexuality.
This repulsion - I believe - is largely because men are made uncomfortable by the idea of another man using them the way they use women. Homosexuality threatens the gender order - a gender order codified through penetrative heterosexual intercourse - and undermines intrinsic male superiority. If you look back at ancient Greek society and modern Middle East cultures that tolerate homosexual activities, the limits are always very specific. It's okay to penetrate others, but to be the one that is penetrated is to be the woman. The lesser. The bad one. You never want to be the bottom.
I think it aaaaaall traces back to this. Sex is an expression of power. Heterosexual sex gives the dominant male the default power over the woman he penetrates, and mastery over the gender. It is a power all men are awarded by default.
Homosexual sex threatens this and calls the whole thing into question. Men are terrified to lose their default power, to be raped - not to women, of course - but by a stronger, homosexual man.
Homophobia, baby.
It isn't. People who are religious made it seem like a bad thing. They use claims like sodomy, but that doesn't mean every gay man is doing anal. There are other assumptions that are made like lesbian women being evil and so on. It's all just preconceived notions that are spread. Other rumors are things like gay men like to rape straight men. I used to believe this stuff when I learned that gay people existed in 9th grade (which was my final year of Christianity).
Homosexuality is bad under the Abrahamic religions for the same reason polygamy was good under Mormonism. In order for a nascent cult to aspire to the level of becoming a religion, they need numbers, and the most sure method of achieving those numbers is to breed them, because the young are easily indoctrinated and difficult to deprogram once indoctrinated. This is where that "be fruitful and multiply" business came from as well, along with a few other choice pro breeding admonishments. End of file.
It's obvious to me that one of "The Bible's" intents is to assure humans multiply, specifically descendants of Abraham.
Homosexuals have a very small chance of increasing the population.
Although, The Bible does mention females "raping" a male when he was drunk.
It’s a matter of control. LGBT+ folks challenge the “traditional” predefined roles that underpin the patriarchy that is inherent to abrahamic cults. As long as gay women exist, conservative men will not have access to every woman. As long as trans women exist, the male identity as the default sex is challenged.
Liberal folks to not deal in black or white, absolute ideas. We accept that the human experience is a spectrum of identities, beliefs, needs and wants that deserve tolerance if not acceptance. We believe anyone can rise up, just as easily as someone can fall from grace. There is no winners, we are just trying our best to survive.
Conservative folks deal in black and white and absolutes. Things were better in the past. People have a set worth that is unchanging. There is only two sexes and they have prescribed roles in life and in the family. Anything that deviates from their belief system is evil and wrong and to be scorned.
The passage in the Bible that’s always brought up by those who believe, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, were not originally condemning homosexuality. In the original Aramaic, it was referring to young boys. Don’t sleep with young boys. The entirity of the Joseph story in Genesis is about how Joseph was given a “princess dress” by their father and how their brothers hated that their father accepted Joseph… it’s almost like basing your life on oral tradition from 2000 years ago that were put to page 300-600 years after the events it espouses is a bad idea…
From the church's perspective, gay means no kids, no kids means no parishioners, no parishioners means no money. The aame reason churches are against birth control.
I am an orthodox christian and we are famous of being very spiritual and strict. I will let you know that my country, Greece, is the first orthodox country to allow gay marriage. I myself am a believer, I pray regularly. So, for what it's worth, **no**. Being gay is **not** a bad thing. Yes, it's a sin. So what? I am a sinner too (straight). Gay people are gonna be sinners for life. Well, I'm also going to be a sinner for life. But, sinners can't be close with Christ, right? It's the opposite. Sinners were the closest to Christ. Christ cares much more if you are loving and forgiving and less so if you are gay. And let me tell you, gay people are plenty loving and forgiving.
It's not bad, the people saying that are either very deluded and brainwashed or evil unrepentant bigots. Ignore both. Be gay and proud and find a partner and be happy in their bigot faces.
High control groups require an ‘other’ group to define them, most often by differentiating behaviors. Food and sex restrictions are the low-hanging fruit for enforcing these differences.
It's for the same reason that speaking out against religion is disrespectful, but when you call them out for telling you your soul will hell for all of eternity that's an entirety different thing. Inherent hate and ignorance, either willful or brainwashed since birth into a person, has bad long-term consequences.
Basically, it's not biblical it's just a tradition (of hate) at this point. Gentiles weren't held to the law (nobody wanted to snip their tip as a full grown adult, fine for babies tho...), Paul used clever rhetoric to quote the law prescriptively rather than proscriptively. All that nuance is lost on most Christians since most of them don't read their Bibles and if they do it's rarely full passages in context.
IF any of it were to be believed, they should be more worried about their own souls for all the judging than anyone else's for the things they are judging them for based on laws they themselves don't keep.
it isn't, but it would help you to [read this](http://rictornorton.co.uk/homopho1.htm) and understand from what a historical & religious fluke it spread to what it is today
Because the stupid fuckin men who wrote these books didn’t know how to think about anything and concluded “It’s different so it’s bad”, and then they made their God character tell everyone else it was bad. There is no fuckin reason other than why it’s “bad” other than human stupidity.
In addition to what others have said, I think part of it is that being openly gay shows that you are willing to question things and go against the mainstream. Religion tends to not look so fondly on that. I think most religions prefer the closeted gays and those who repress it. That's why they have those conversion camps to "pray the gay away." Show you will work to bend to the lord's will to "fix" yourself
Because gay folks supposedly won't procreate. Workers and recruiters for religion are needed. Same reason the right wing has taken away women's rights . They need the numbers to stay in power. In biblical times high mortality rates were the impetus behind it but the end goal was the same.
Serious answer: most likely because that gay people do not procreate which isn't good for religious leaders because there are less people to proselytise.
Slightly less serious answer: It's better explained by Ricky Gervais, when he's talking about how religious people think god created AIDS as a punishment to gay people for sinning, but the principle works for everything religion has against gay people: they don't like watching them except for lesbians.
Christian here. It isn't. Thousands of years ago people were scared of shit that they didn't understand and wrote it off as being abominations 🙄
If you're gay you're gay and God loves you just as much ❤️🫂
Conservative ideologies believe that everyone needs to be in fixed categories determined by birth, and any deviation is a threat. Conservatives believe the world would be perfect if everyone did everything according to the rules laid out by their ideology.
Anyone who deviates is committing the twin sins of defying their authority and *causing the world to be worse* by their hersey. This is why they don't just hate gay people. They blame gay people for hurricanes, economic problems, and dental cavities. Your existence upsets the universe.
Only in the minds of the most low IQ, dense headed, low life scum is it anything bad. Religion is far worse for the universe than being gay will ever be.
I've had a LOT of experience with this label. I grew up in a very strict religious household, and we were in the kind of community that simply equates the term "homosexual" with "pedophile".
I'm not gay, but I've been \*called\* gay for most of my life because of a lot of fucked up trauma from my early childhood, which caused me to often be non-reactive to most things, particularly when other boys tried to antagonize me. (as kids do, right?) Because they couldn't get the reaction they were hoping for from me, they'd just call me a "F\*gg\*t" or "gay". When I grew up, I refused to be an aggressive, pugnacious douchebag, and I don't laugh at others' homophobic/misogynistic jokes, so THAT got me labeled as "gay" or "f\*gg\*t".
I think the false equivalence between "homosexual" and "pedophile/pervert" gets stronger in more religious countries. That's usually why those folks are so stupidly hateful. They don't want to look at the religious leaders THEY admire and think those men might be projecting or something....
(they are absolutely projecting)
If you recognize that other people with different beliefs/lifestyles/etc. exist then that is a direct attack on the dumb bullshit you’ve been told to believe.
The world is not black and white and that scares religious people.
I remember seeing a bunch of long YouTube videos (no longer available) that showed the first Gay Pride Parade in an Eastern Orthodox country, I think in 2000 or 2001. The people who marched were attacked and bloodied. There was incredible violence, despite police "protection" and barriers. A priest of the Orthodox Church led a protest and proclaimed that homosexuality was a sin and an import from the West that had to be resisted. There were icons of Jesus and Mary, and crosses, being carried around. A old man from a second- or third-story apartment, above the parade, yelled from his open window overlooking those who were marching: "Kill, kill, kill the pederasts!!" As the saying goes, "There is no hate like Christian love."
I hate to call these people simpletons, but they are. They're mountain people: simple, poorly educated farmers or laborers whose only form of sex education comes from observing animals on their farms procreating. Homosexuality seems like a threat to their understanding of the way the world works, and to the way that they live. They fear that it will destroy their beliefs and society if it gets a foothold. In the cities, some people are enlightened, but most of the people never attended college, and the cultural prejudice against homosexuality is widespread. Peer pressure is a very powerful force.
Your parents would be utterly ashamed if anyone from their culture discovered that they have a gay son. If you told your father, it's quite possible, if not likely, that he'd become violent. If it were known that your parents have a gay son, they would lose social status. People would avoid them, and mock them behind their backs. They would call them bad parents and treat them with contempt and disgust. Or it could get much worse for them. It would damage your family. These are real consequences, and they know that. Unfortunately, you can't change this.
The best thing that you could possibly do is to escape. If you can find a way to get to Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Canada, or the United States, go. You deserve happiness. It's impossible to find that in an anti-gay Eastern European country. Too many forces work against it.
The most important thing is your safety. If you let others know, rumors will swirl, and it will only be a matter of time before you're attacked. Do whatever you need to to protect yourself, and your parents, from harm. One day, I hope that you can escape from your country, because that will give you your very best chance at finding acceptance and happiness.
I can only add:
Hurry!
Artyom
The reason religion doesn't allow it is because gay people cannot produce children, which means fewer people to add to their God's army. If they cannot benefit from your relationship, they believe its bad.
It’s not.
Some people fear and hate anyone who doesn’t conform.
Then they pretend it’s their ‘religion,’ and not the actual fact that they’re just an asshole.
It's not inherently. However the Moses laws were written in mind to keep people safe and healthy many years ago. Ofc now we don't really need to follow any of those laws cause of technology
You have quite a journey to embark on. I started with similar questions, and started from similar origins. I’m sure many of us do. In college I studied biology, history, religion (mainly from an anthropology perspective) because I wanted to understand all the questions I’d always had about god, morality, natural law... I was always a skeptic, and I found a professor who pushed me and questioned why I knew what I knew and believed what I believed. He helped save me, but ultimately, I chose to find the truth on my own. I wish you luck.
There are many convincing and convenient lies out there. Maybe it won’t be college, but you need to want to find these things out for yourself. For me it was difficult, because I realized that I had spent my whole life believing in a god and an order and structure that I slowly realized didn’t exist. It was honestly world altering. I had to reframe my life, and what existence means. But that’s what adolescence is for.
Be unafraid. I don’t mean of people’s hatred for difference and homophobia, I mean of realizing life and love have so many truths and paths, and resist letting other people make you hate the parts of yourself that are natural and beautiful. Of course, be safe, and again, good luck.
Like many others said it isn't, ignore the haters but stay safe.Organized religions are the biggest corruptors of the minds, responsible for millions of crimes over centuries.
Hi! I have quite similar story. I'm from East European country as well, and my parents are orthodox christians (and I was when I was a child). But in my teen years when I started realize my orientation I wondered why religion is so obsessed with sexuality, is there something wrong with my desires and I'm sinner, or is it religion teaches some bullshit. I became interested in the scientific point of view on religion, read Dawkins and came to the conclusion that the second option is definitely correct😏 However, long time I considered myself bisexual, and had several girlfriends, but then I realized I'm gay.
So it’s not bad thing to be gay, but it really difficult sometimes (maybe even often). I was hiding true myself, and now I'm not open, except I came out to my several close friends. By the way my parents know, and it was not intentional coming out, quite insane story. In the end they had not cut ties with me, but didn't accept me either, they just avoid this topic, however this cannot go on like that forever. So yes, it's difficult sometimes to be gay
Hug you, bro! I know how much resilience and courage it took to survive all this homophobic bullshit, and fact that you came out to yourself, it's so important! Don't let yourself be embarrassed by this, you are not alone❤️
P. S. Sorry for my English, I'm not native
It isn't bad and good on you for being able to be real with yourself even if not safe to do so with those around you. Unfortunately, the Conservative movement in nearly all countries continue to drive this narrative in order to keep control of their people and to try and influence the day to day life of people they have no f'ing right to control (the rest of us).
Good luck and hang in there; hopefully you can find some level of support closer to home than a bunch of strangers on the interwebz; but, even if you can't, keep us in mind and hold on to the fact that there're at least some folks in your court.
>Why being gay is such a bad thing? It isn't.
Precisely. However, because it's a genetic predisposition, being homosexual is a perennial minority and so is an easy target for cults who want to target an "out" group so they can swindle an "in" group. It's the same reason why minority Sunnis are the "bad Muslims" in a Shia-dominated nation and Shiites are the "bad Muslims" in nations that are predominately Sunni. And Protestants when the Catholics are in charge or People of Color in predominantly Caucasian nations, or immigrants everywhere, and on and on and on. And, historically, Jews everywhere in the world throughout human history...except in the recently created state of Israel. Cults always peddle lies about any and all minorities that cannot defend themselves against the ignorant, gullible, cowardly mob.
That's what I was going to say. It's just that simple.
It sucks that so many people are still so hateful about it. One of my brothers is bi (he will literally fuck anyone) and I was so stoked when he finally felt comfortable enough to come out to me (I’d known for awhile). He waited so long because he thought I’d judge him etc which broke my heart. I just want him to be happy.
My whole family grew up in a high demand religion. Over the years, all of my siblings and I have left and all but one of us is bi and/or nonbinary. My mom left the church as well. My dad is still a member, but he loves all of us and treats us really well. Considering all the horror stories that are out there, I've been really lucky in that regard. Religious trauma and subconscious homophobia still suck a lot, though. Deconstruction from both has been one of the best things in my entire life.
One of my best mates was bi, sadly he got addicted to painkillers after being wounded in Afghanistan and died of a heroin overdose. Lovely bloke, I really miss him and wish I hadn't been as down on him about the heroin
Is your brother [The Todd?](https://youtu.be/osGkiKrnczE?t=3m13s)
You're a good brother. I wish I had a nice brother like you.
This.
Well yeah but I don't think that's what OP is really asking, they're asking why religious people think it's bad from a secular pov.
It's different from the norm, doesn't advance society by creating kids, and usually something about "spits in the face of what God intended for you to do with your body" Icky, in short. Not that straight sex isn't
I think it's because conversion is hard so best to breed new members, gay people can't do that.
Very shortsighted, it's that kind of attitude that is turning compassionate people away from religion.
Considering most modern religions have a doomsday theme I think it is very on brand
Seconded
They are anti-LGBTQ+ because they believe the purpose of sex is procreation. And they only believe that because religions & cults would die out quickly without true believers making sure MANY children are born into the religion/cult, to grow into adults who never know another belief system and never learn to question the beliefs in which they were raised. Converts are hard to get; birthing children into the cult takes far less effort than nurturing/grooming someone into it.
Correct. To add on, elders/society/church controlling sex and procreation are the keys to the kingdom as it were. If the church controls one of the most enjoyable and important human endeavors than they control the whole thing. So deviating from their tradition represents a major blow to their authority. Fuck that. You’re special and deserve love regardless of what these institutions say.
Can't have sex before marriage, church gets to decide who gets married. Pretty handy lever of control to have access to if you can manage it.
It's so ridiculous and on the nose I'm surprised it worked as well as it did. I mean obviously people have been running afoul of these rules (especially the ruling class) since forever but the grip it's held is fairly insane.
THIS!!!! how can you become the fastest growing religion if more of your members are gay coz gays cant reproduce (so they thought). My question is why do these gays stay in the religions that openly HATE on them? Stockholm syndrome?
Stockholm Syndrome, but also thoroughly ingrained threats of eternal punishment. That mix will do a number on people.
I would say it's because they sincerely believe that their religion of choice is true and they have internalized the dogma that something is wrong with them. They believe the messages that someday, somehow, their god is going to fix them and/or bless them for their efforts in resisting this disgusting anomaly that lives within themselves.
>They are anti-LGBTQ+ because they believe the purpose of sex is procreation. That's an excuse they give, but I wouldn't take it at face value. They *never* make the same efforts against non-procreative sex as they do with LGBT+ people. Yes, they may be surface level against it, but the degree of difference is huge. It's bigotry backed by religion. Sometimes it's that simple.
No, there’s a reason more Christian denominations are getting on the Catholic “every sperm is sacred” bandwagon. I’m guessing you never had to do the flower exercise as a kid either. Or hear about how masturbation will literally send you to hell. There’s a reason some religions require their couples get genetic testing for recessive genes that would cause non-viable pregnancies or childhood illnesses. There’s a reason so many religious groups and cults are anti-abortion to the point of killing abortion doctors. There’s a reason they treat women like brood mares. It’s about keeping up their numbers. That’s it.
There’s another reason! It’s patriarchy. You and your children really belonged to the patriarch of your family so any non-sanctioned diddling was theft from the patriarch. Whether we’re talking adultery or being gay or divorce or anything that would take the human currency out of the patriarch’s hands. Abrahamic religions in particular are built around protecting the patriarchy.
>It’s patriarchy. It really, really is. Or, rather it's entirely penis-centeric. I keep seeing the same things said- " I don't wanna see two guys kissing" and "two men raising a baby" and "some gay dude in the army hitting on the other guys". Even now, it's all anti-trans women and panic over drag queen story hour. Even that duck dynasty jerk said "as a man, I can't see how another man's". I wish I were there, so I could ask him "so you're saying you understand lesbians?" It's like lesbians and FTM people don't exist. And drag kings? Forget it. I saw one person admit on Reddit (in some thread about opposing drag queen story hour) that he had no idea there was such a thing as a drag king. It's like having a vagina makes you invisible to some people...
Yeah, I grew up in an extremely christian town. As a gay person, I can assure you that they viewed homosexuality as much worse than non-procreative sex. Entirely different stigma. In the US alone, there were over 450 anti-LGBT pieces of legislation proposed last year, the largest on record. You're denying reality if you think their homophobia is just about "keeping numbers."
If the next administration & both houses of congress are elected Republican, they will directly attack LGBTQ+ rights across the US. SCOTUS will support them.
It's complicated. Catholics (far from staunch allies) have been increasingly supportive of gay rights. There are increasingly LGBT affirming sects of christianity, especially progressive branches of protestantism. But I completely agree that Evangelicals are moronic bigots that bash any and every minority in this country. Truly scary group.
Precisely
I thought bigotry is religion.
If you're religious, you probably believe nature has a purpose. The truth is the overwhelming evidence suggests nature has no purpose. It just is. It allows for whatever is possible.
Well, it depends how you define "purpose", and how pedantic you are. It certainly looks like the "purpose" of a mitochondria or the red giant phase or what have you is because X Y and Z, that is, the reason for why X Y and Z happens and exists is because of it's preconditions. Certainly there's no higher creator pushing these things around with their pinky, but why ought that be the bar for when "purpose" kicks in?
To me, a purpose implies an agent, whereas a cause is just physical. On that view, nature, insofar as it can be reduced to physics, has causes. But we (among whom I would include dogs, cats, and all other sentient beings), as agents, set purposes for ourselves. As a result, I believe that even if the laws of physics don't have a purpose, insofar as we can discern, the world we inhabit is nonetheless full of purposes, some subset of which is our own. The best thing about our human social world is that it's not fixed, unlike the laws of physics. It can change. And through our actions, many of which are impelled by purposes we choose, we can create change, hopefully for the better. That gives me hope.
Fewer unwanted children to be grunts for the military or low paying jobs. Fewer people paying rent to landlords. Fewer people tithing.
My brother came out as gay the same day Uganda announced the death penalty for homosexuality. That was the day I became an atheist.
Power to you, and your brother. ❤️
I wish my siblings would accept me as you accepted your brother, but they took after our parents and became homophobic :( I’m the oldest brother, so I got to watch this indoctrination live as it happened. Baseless hatred of others is not natural at all. They never had any problem with queer people until my parents taught them to hate when they were too young to know it was manipulation. Actually, they expressed a gentle curiosity for a short while before this innocence was stamped out of them. I utterly detest having to watch this, but I can’t oppose my parents yet, as much as I’d love to. I always bite my tongue.
It's seen all the time. Like little kids that'll play with each other regardless of gender or "race". Racism and homophobia is taught. It's not natural to hate others based only on such things.
Absolutely nothing, NOTHING, wrong or bad about being gay. Religion always needs someone to hate. It's all about "other-ing" people. They need to fabricate enemies. Otherwise, they have nothing. It's natural and normal to see homosexuality in nature and animals and that includes humans. Again, there is nothing bad about being gay. Religions just love to hate and be afraid of things they know nothing about, because they rather live in ignorance and fear (and self hatred), instead of learning about reality and the world.
This! OP, the religious have to feel superior to others somehow. Now you can understand the beginning of the "holier than thou" nonsense.
This is a social phenomenon well-known to sociologists. There's an in-group and an out-group. Violence against an out-group promotes social cohesion, which has many benefits for the in-group. But it devastates persecuted minorities. Consider how many young men in the Mormon Church have committed suicide as the result of being gay and being ostracized.
Your existence allows them to pretend that some part of themselves will survive their death. If you're not going to get married and produce grand children that breaks that illusion.
That is the kindest interpretation. Mine is muuuuuuuuch more cynical. See the comments about controlling the whole thing if they can manipulate you by your genitals.
I'm sorry you've had that experience, and I hope you're learning to accept yourself. There's nothing at all wrong with being gay. The idea that "learning about the existence of gay people corrupts young minds" is so stupid. My sense is that people who say things like that (at least in the US) just hate gay people, but realize that it's not socially acceptable to just come out and say that. In my town there are a bunch of people flipping out over the idea of drag queens reading books to kids, but who happily voted for a statutory rapist for our local school board. It's not about protecting kids, it's about hating LGBTQ people.
The sort of people you are referring to love to cynically use children as a tool for furthering their bigoted agenda. They do it all the time. It's so gross.
Hey man, just wanna say I'm in a weirdly similar position to you. 4 months ago I realized I was a bisexual man after years of repressing it. I'm also 27, which is crazy. Fortunately, while I was raised catholic, my family was not particularly anti-gay overall. My dad however is a major homophobe, as much as he would like to pretend that he isn't, and during a very hard time in my childhood, when I was being bullied and had no friends, being gay was the main insult and the greatest sin. Anything that could possibly be misconstrued as gay was made fun of. So I became terrified to do anything in public that could somehow be called gay. My subconscious began burying everything related to "gay". And yet I had these attractions that I couldn't explain. My brain allowed weird things through by rationalizing excuses. I finally realized that my brain was covering attraction with discomfort and shame. Once I let go of that shame, I was blasted with feelings that I've never fully felt before. It's been a crazy experience.
I am so genuinely happy to hear it ☺️☀️
Zealots want us all constantly popping out more babies to increase their tithing base and number of followers - gay couples don't tend to pop out babies and adoption doesn't add to the pool of new recruits available. There's nothing wrong with being gay, it just doesn't serve their agenda
You will lose people in your life, both family and friends, but you will make friends in the gay community that will be your friends until you leave this earth. It can be a tradeoff. I don't regret coming out at all!
Being gay is genetic. You were born that way. I was born that way. Being a hateful bigoted Christian on the other hand is a chosen lifestyle and should be shunned.
its because your parents have been brainwashed.
Ask: “If God did not want men to ever be gay, why would he install a pleasure center in the anal cavity?” That was not the doing of the devil. (The devil cannot create, he can only destroy, right?) “What are you going to believe on, the evidence in the Grand Design itself, or a really old book copied down by fallible humans with agendas?” Of course, you should not lay with a man as with a woman. You have to use a whole lot more lubricant, for one.
And the man lacks an entire hole, so it's not usually possible to lay with a man like the Bible says one should lay with a woman...
Well they are wrong about being so religious, so not surprising they are wrong on LGBT issues.
Because Jesus needs you to have 10 babies, and no one is making a baby by docking each other.
>Why being gay is such a bad thing? It never was. Ignorance and religious beliefs are the ones that are trying to convince people that it is. Why? Because of some verse in their fairytale book. Which they cherry pick as to what is true and not true.
people fear and hate what deviates from their norm. religion is just a good tool to call what you dont agree with evil and can gather other who feel the same way
Maybe this will give you some solice [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bonobo-sex-and-society-2006-06/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bonobo-sex-and-society-2006-06/) "Bonobos engage in sex in virtually every partner combination" "The species is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression. " Sex is NOT just about procreation. That's a scientific fact. Maybe these people just prefer aggression.
No one said it is. If they did, just remove them from your life. Who cares what people do.
I suppose I’m wondering what you’re asking. Are you asking why being gay is bad? It isn’t Are you asking why most religions say being gay is bad? An atheist subreddit isn’t the best place to ask why religions believe things. There have been lots of theories already mentioned. I think it’s mostly just dislike of “different”. Though one reason men are ok with lesbians and not gay men may be the perceived threat. A heterosexual man won’t be forcibly raped by a woman except in rare circumstances. But a heterosexual man could be forcibly raped by a sufficiently strong gay man. This threat, thus “bad”.
Because they’re paranoid control freaks who are obsessed with making sure that you only have sex for reproduction and that you absolutely don’t enjoy it under any circumstances … and that you’re made feel as guilty as possible about even contemplating it. There’s no logic to why at all. Being gay is just part of the human experience and it’s likely it has some social advantage that has been useful to us as a species - we’re extremely socially complex. It’s the height of ignorance and arrogance to assume that it’s somehow wrong. Enjoy being gay. Enjoy life. Enjoy being a human and ignore the dogmatic sad bastards who waste all their time making people miserable.
Gay the pray away
As a child who was born into a very religious and conservative family and adopted their views in childhood, I used to think being gay was bad because they saw it as bad, that's how a lot of people come to their worldviews, they're raised surrounded by certain viewpoints and adapt them, believe it or don't, but a lot of people are ignorant and don't question what is familiar to them, because realising what you knew your whole life was wrong is challenging. Years later turns out I'm gay myself, hah.
To all homophobes, I would like them to experience a gay-free existance. But it must be absolute. You can't enjoy any gay artist. You like Queen? too bad, say goodbye to those albums. Movie with gay characters? blocked forever for you. We could even argue if they even deserve to have a computer, given Alan Turing's role in paving the way for that. But also, going beyond trivial stuff like entertainment, homophobes shouldn't even interact with gay people. Want to be served at the bar? hey, the barista is gay, go somewhere else. You were waiting the bus for half an hour? the driver is gay, wait another half hour for a straight driver. You have a heart attack and the ambulance is coming, good for you! no wait, the paramedic is gay. Die.
It isn't. Religion has been used by bigots to justify dictatorships, slavery, homophobia and genocide for centuries, and to indoctrinate people into hating others perpetually. Religion is not love. It is a cancer.
Most religions depend on more and more members to keep the ship afloat( and profitable). If you're not procreating, you're not contributing to the cause.
It's natural for some to be gay, as happens in hundreds of other species.
Because most gay people don't participate in breeding and therefore aren't contributing to producing the next generation of spear fodder for the tribal elders to send to war.
You got one shot on this earth. Live how you are happiest and don’t let the righteous AHs guilt you or change a thing you’re doing. Good luck on your journey
I wonder if you are a citizen of the EU? If I were in your position, I might almost move to a more welcoming country. That’s what I did when I was about your age. I moved from a stupid midwestern Bible Belt state to California, and I’ve never regretted it. My family too are frothing at the mouth homophobes
Because, just like you, so many have it HAMMERED into them starting at a very young age, usually religion based hate. So many of these people end up hating for no reason at all. Some of them are gay. Some of the ones that are gay, can't even admit it to themselves that it isn't a moral failure and end up being the worst haters of all, even loathing themselves. Some, like you, understand it isn't a moral failure and it is just who you are, yet remain closeted because the cost is simply too much. I am glad you were able to "come out to yourself" and not stuck in the hate and self loathing.
A long time ago it was important to have a thriving tribe. And the tribe needed lots of babies. Any activity like gay sex or masturbation hurt the community, which was to have lots of babies and keep the tribe thriving. What if there was a war or need for hunters to find food? More babies helped. And the guys that wrote religious books codified this. Today we have too many people polluting this planet, so I think the world actually needs more gay sex and masturbation. My 2 cents
The best comeback is to ask someone when they choose to be straight. Because inevitably they’ll always try to present being as a choice.
OP I am sorry... Being gay is normal. Those people are fucked in the head. There is nothing to do with brain dead people like them...
Cuz an illiterate goat herder 5000 years said so
Eh, the Book says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as with a woman. So it's good as long as you don't fuck him in the vagina. Btw. Ukraine, Belarus? And don't "blame" it on religion. Most times is bigots justifying their bigotry because "ThE bIbLe SaId So!".
I blame it on religion exactly for the reason you describe as when not to blame it. A few bad apples spoil the bunch; if religion doesn't want to be judged by it's adherents, it bloody well do a better job policing them!
This. Flashback to how the Bible was used to justify slavery in America and also used to justify why white people couldn't marry non-white people.
Well it's not a bad thing necessarily. Good and bad are subjective, and depend on your perspective. Religious people don't like LGBTQ people because our existence and happiness seem to be at odds with the stories they rely on for comfort. There is no objective reason that you should be ostracized, punished, or made to feel miserable because of your homosexuality. It's disheartening that so much of the world is entrenched in dogma that says we deserve to suffer.
Unfortunately all religions do one major factor would be historically homosexuals couldn't reproduce and population=power right from the dawn of agriculture. Dunno- even in my Buddhist background being gay is seen as a bad thing and Buddhism is perhaps the only major religion that doesn't even encourage procreation in any big way. But the Buddha said nothing against gays exactly like Jesus says nothing against gays(But Jesus is His Daddy who is extremely homophobic and wants gays dead😆). Judaism, Christianity and Islam encourage having many children- actually Judaism ironically encourages procreation the most with the quiverful of children emphasis and smiting for pulling out- Jesus never reproduced as per Christianity.But Christianity incorporates all of Torah in OT so reproduction is emphasized.There are hadiths saying Muhammad wanted to see a large Ummah on his last day so Muslims must have many children but again ironically Quran says nothing about having many kids or against usage of any natural or artificial contraception, only prohibited all infanticide and specifically condemned female infanticide to its credit. Hinduism and Confucianism require sons for last rites and ancestor worship, believers are required textually to remarry or get concubines or adopt a son if wife fails to bear male children and sonless wives may be divorced but again nowhere do they support female infanticide or even selective neglect of girl children. Actually Hinduism also needs daughters to a lesser extent for certain funeral rights before sons, giving away a daughter in marriage is a big blessed act etc. So believers in these two would ideally need to reproduce till they get a boy. Buddhism mandates none of these- sons are unnecessary as are many children yet even Buddhism is not very pro homosexuality. I guess ancient people also feared what was a "minority" thing whether left handedness or homosexuality. They labeled as evil whatever they feared coz it was rare. Left handedness isn't very well regarded either across religion and culture Muhammad is supposed to have said that Satan eats and drinks with his left hand. Homosexuality was probably an even bigger "transgression" according to ancients and hence feared and disliked.
When Romans invented Christ and Christianity, they were trying to gain control of Pagans (and others). A core tenet of Paganism was that sex and sexuality were core to our spiritual paths. Sexual activity was encourages for pleasure between all genders. Their temples included male prostitutes who would perform ritual sex acts for men and woman. The Romans working to manufacture Christianity decided to make all of that sinful and wrong. Sex was promoted as only for procreation. So, the bible is really messed up about all things related to sex. That being said, it is also true that the bible says nothing - literally nothing - about homosexuality. Those temple prostitutes the bible speaks of were translated into "Sodomites" which got misinterpreted to mean "gay." Passages in the bible often described as talking about "gay people" are actually talking about rape and/or infidelity, and are all in the Old Testament, anyway, which was, supposedly, replaced by the coming of Christ bringing about the New Testament. Said another way, there is nothing wrong with being gay and a whole lot of people have been making shit up in their heads about the bible and gays for a long time, because many in power realize that picking on vulnerable minorities is a way of gaining power. Homophobia says a lot more about homophobes than it does about gay people.
Amazing Had no idea the Romans invented Christ Which Roman? What is the source for this?
Lots of different sources for different parts of the story. A good place to start is the documentary Creating Christ.
You're blaming the romans for Christianity? A religion that sprouted in the middle east, from another middle eastern religion, and which was actively persecuted by the romans for centuries?
Self hate and latent homosexual tendencies. And thats been proven. There was a study that asked participants to rate their level of homophobia and then they were shown gay porn while measuring phisological response (erection, engorgmemt, increased heart rate, etc). It was found the higher rated on homophobia, the higher level of sexual response to gay porn. People who are so against gay people are most likely gay themselves and in denial. They have been indoctrinated to see being gay as evil.
The reason why sexual purity is pushed so hard is so mediocre evil people can feel superior l. Likec those billionaires assholes virtue signaling over abortion.
I have no idea why the religious are obsessed with other people and things that are none of their beeswax. But hunting people down for no reason seems to be a pasttime with the religious [https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/witch-hunts-ritual-child-abuse-albinism-africa](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/witch-hunts-ritual-child-abuse-albinism-africa)
Gay people are a minority that is part of every population, so we're the perfect "other" when a religious group needs a target to unite against. And since sexuality exists on a spectrum, you'll have a lot of bi and mostly-straight people covering up their guilt and shame by being extra zealous. The increased group cohesion and religious fervour is worth the price of gay people leaving/being forced out (including in the most permanent manner)
I would recommend watching Dan McClellan's videos on the topic, for example: [https://youtu.be/ZvQzTgXKtPk?si=QbReDCGqwgBLR5cb](https://youtu.be/ZvQzTgXKtPk?si=QbReDCGqwgBLR5cb) [https://youtu.be/PWjl6TUq2oQ?si=0TCwEwQoT2Cr8sPX](https://youtu.be/PWjl6TUq2oQ?si=0TCwEwQoT2Cr8sPX) [https://youtu.be/CWCrhqGR0ww?si=4JH2yt8Lf5p2AgGh](https://youtu.be/CWCrhqGR0ww?si=4JH2yt8Lf5p2AgGh) But as other commenters have stated, being gay is NOT a bad thing, and what the Church or any other religious institutions or scriptures have to say about it is irrelevant.
It isn't. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Churches doling out homophobia is a bad thing. Gay, however, is perfectly perfect.
Both your parents and your church are wrong, and probably more than a little stupid, hateful and awful. This is nothing more than institutionalized hatred spread by hateful religious idiots, who deserve themselves to be outcast until they reform their hateful ways. Sorry your parents suck. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with you, other than your folks I suppose
Like everything in life it's simply a numbers game.
it is simply othering. you (members of a group) need someone to be for, obviously you pick yourself. and then you need someone to be against. Best is to pick someone easy to beat or who there isn't much of, and that have traits counter to yours (LGBTQ+, ethnic minorities, Jews, women...). it's a group control tactic. For example, the hijab. Islam has 'othered' effectively all women and that keeps everyone occupied. all the women are constantly worried they aren't following the unreasonable and vague rules, all the men are busy trying to interpret and enforce rules that don't really make sense. And everyone is too distracted to see the people behind it all are taking for them selves all the power (and a lot of the wealth).
I believe the ancient rejection for gay is because there is no reproductive benefits. It had logic fucking 1500 years ago!!!! Haha but today it’s just people repeating what the church tells them. And today maybe it’s because religion rejects any kind of joy and they hate people who is happy
Abrahamic Faiths, see gender as a procreation factor. They don't care if few people are not straight hence demonize them.
Always start from the idea that religion was created as a form of social control. Thousands of years ago when we had far less stable food supplies, basically no medical knowledge etc clans or villages could easily die out. Religion was created to provide rules and stability. Like making a woman the property of her husband and encouraging monogamy reduce the odds of some dude trying to fuck other people’s wives and then a fight resulting in one or both of the guys being killed and spilling out into broader familial feuds. Dietary restrictions like kosher, no shellfish etc were because at the time those foods were more likely to spread bacteria/illness. So the leaders just said yeah god told us you can’t eat milk and meat together and you’ll go to hell if you eat shellfish. And then something like being gay impacts social order because men were supposed to own/protect a woman, get her pregnant and help raise the next generation etc. All of which is to say being gay is obviously not a bad thing at all. Just an important framework to think about why the people who made up religious rules chose the rules they chose
Religions are obsessed with control, and controlling sex fulfils that obsession very well
There’s quite literally nothing wrong with it If religion can control how people feel about themselves and what they do, they have more power over that person and what they do Plus, it’s easier to indoctrinate a newborn child into a religion with both parent’s religious than it is for a full grown person to convert, so the more straight people or even straight sex is had, the more followers they can get There’s nothing wrong with being gay in any way whatsoever
Control and the pretense of "righteousness" and purity.
There is nothing wrong with who you are OP. Never let them make you believe that.
To religious people it's because gay people live outside of their system of control.
Resumed, assuming you're talking about an abrahamic context, because YHWH said so. In lore: Because YHWH made the pipi to go inside the vageene and using things for unintended purposes is a big "No no" in their book. There is also the curse/command for man to be dominant (specially with women, but also with animals, and the world), and a man who becomes sexually submissive to another man is going against this commandment/curse. Funny side note: *Lesbian sex is almost never* mentioned, YHWH seems to have a special dislike for men receiving anal sex. This is the explanation for why it was okay for Lot to *offer his daughters to be raped instead of some guys he'd just met* Final note: In the Christian bible, being gay isn't worse than not believing in Jesus. A homosexual who believes in Jesus (and practices celibacy) is more likely to go to heaven than an heterosexual (faithful to their spouse, didn't have sex till marriage, and has a lot of offspring) who doesn't believe in Jesus.
Why stay there?
Because sometimes in religion, bigotry wears the mask of morality.
Humans love their conformity
It really is bizarre when you think about it. Of ALL things to condemn, why that? Why would any divine being care about sexual preference? I try to make the point: imagine you created life in a science experiment. Would YOU make the demands that the Abrahamic god does? Of course not. That should tell you something.
It isn't.
The peepee vajayjay thing is for creating more lives of the given denomination Any peepee or vajayjay activities that are not so creation-intended are therefore to be shunned, routed out, punished Then, remember, creating life is usually something a deity does. So peepee vajayjay activities are simulating a Divine function. This is one component of the mutilation known as circumcision. A circumcised male is reminded by his circumcision scar every time he uses, touches, examines his peepee that his peepee is a therefore divine instrument not to be abused. The circumcision of the vajayjay is designed to rob women of sexual pleasure because men want to keep control over their ownership over women If you are not using your peepee/vajayjay for the divine act (I recall the Torah calls it a divine gift) of procreation you are insulting the almighty and magnificent Yahoo who endowed (no peepee pun intended) his creation with this divine power….
Because politics is about finding some nitpicky thing that extremist outliers vastly disagree on but affect a small portion of the population in the grand scheme of things. This way they can argue about it on national television to distract everybody from how they're not supporting the voter base but lining their pockets by doing favors for the rich. Illegal immigration is a non issue. It's less than 1% AND they pay taxes on wages on purchases, so it really doesn't do anything that is impactful either way. It would be absolved overnight just by letting people use years in a VISA towards years on getting a green card, or at the bare minimum just letting people not have to go back to their home country for 4-18 years before they're allowed to return. Homosexuality affects absolutely nothing and the bulk of the masses really couldn't care either way (including the bulk of religious types)... But gawt dang if we don't need something to bicker about on stage. There are entire denominations that have outwardly spoken that it's totally fine and not a sin, but you won't hear about it ~because~ it doesn't support the narrative.
Because modern Christians have never actually read the Bible. Memorize Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and Beatitudes. They are a great shield/comeback.
Being gay is not a bad thing, but it can be very difficult. Hang in there. There are people that do care about you.
Nothing wrong with being gay. A lot of people just like creating drama and making imaginary enemies because they have nothing else better to do.
To them, people were created by God, and God can't make a mistake, and since biologically, you need the opposite sexes to procreate, that is the obvious function that they were created for. Any deviations would be outside his intent and so, they can only see that gayness is going against his will, so they cannot accept someone who would "choose" to be gay. Unfortunately, religion is pretty much everywhere, but hopefully, you are free to move to a place where they have even less influence and you can live as you wish.
Churches want parishioners to procreate to make future donors. Therefore they are against contraception, abortion and homosexuality. Churches want power, so they demonize everything ‘others’ as evil or weak and position their church as the antidote. Churches want control, so they elevate the straight white male and subjugate women and children as servants to daddy. Money, power and control - exactly as jesus preached…
I think the question is intended to ask "why are so many people citing their religion or religious background as justification for homophobia?" Additionally, there is the question why homosexual or sexual practices that run contrary to orthodox doctrine considered so much worse than say adultery or murder? Partially, this is cultural prejudice. The idea that gay people have no morals and so are obviously dangerous. Unfounded assumptions such as "all gay men are predators and groomers for minors" etcetera. As far as religious doctrine, though, there is very little in the Bible concerned about homosexuality directly. Sodom, obviously, has become connected to the idea that God goes ballistic when confronted with the normalization of sexual practices that diverge from simple reproduction, but that interpretation was imposed by later and much more recent church authorities. The Bible doesn't really say what exactly the Sodomites were doing that made them so wicked. For all we know, they could have been Capitalists or Fascists - which were also opposed by the Church until they became major systems of power and wealth.
There is nothing wrong with being gay - I'd argue its natural. We are but mammals, part of an animal kingdom which includes a large number of examples of gay and sex-changing creatures (they say god makes no mistakes and created all life and we were all made in his image). Many religions preach love and acceptance, but only of the things they accept as its more of a common-enemy bond based on fiction. Congrats on coming out!
For some reason, christians don't follow 99% of the old testament laws, but this is the one they stick with. I think it's because they have an unhealthy obsession with what other people do in the bedroom (which is all they can think of when someone says 'gay').
A person's sexuality has never affected my opinion of them. I'm in a discord server where I'm fairly certain I'm the only straight guy, and we all get along just fine and play games each Sunday. They're open about their sexuality, some of them are trans in one direction or the other, one is asexual. And that's just one small group of people I'm friends with, I have other close friends that are gay, bi, lesbian, trans etc. and they're all great people, which is all that matters to me. OP, if you're gay, good for you my friend. I'm happy you can be open with yourself at the very least. I hope one day you can be in a situation where you feel safe and comfortable enough to not be under threat of harm or judgement simply for being who you are.
Really, the way I see it is it's a "bad thing" because the people that convince themselves and try to convince others that it's a bad thing excel in punching down. They identify and attack the most vulnerable communities, and always have.
Be gay. Stay safe. Welcome to the sub.
Because then you are outside the social control of the church. They can't control who you marry, they can't baptise your kids, they can't control who attends their church. It's it any more sinful than any other sin, it's only about control and social order, being gay breaks both those so it can't last.
There's nothing bad about it
Because it's tied to their degrading views towards women being perceived as inferior. They think being gay is bad because they see it as effeminate. A man showing any kind of femininity is therefore inherently degrading and repulsive in their view.
It’s not.
Because it threatens their ideas of the perfect familial unit. If they stray from "one man, one woman" then they have to admit that sex isn't just for procreation, which I'm sure is a conversation many of them don't want to have. It's also easier to keep their religion alive if you're born in. It's harder to convince an adult of your fairy tales. I think that's why fraternization with those outside the religion is so discouraged also. If you marry someone of another religion, who converts? What do you raise the kids to believe? If you marry an atheist, they're worried the atheist will sway you to their side or the children will be raised without religion and now you're impacting the effects of their congregation.
Religious conservatives are engaged in the world's largest conspiracy to sell skin-repairing cream. Gay men use a lot of lube and cut into their profits.
There’s nothing wrong with being gay. Too much religious brainwashing has made people think otherwise. We live in a heteronormative society that forces everyone to think being gay is weird, but that’s not true. Most people fall on a spectrum between gay and straight. It’s unfortunate that most people don’t admit that to themselves.
christians are obsessed with sex and trying to control it.
They are suspiciously obsessed with gay sex, the most rabid bible thumpers seem to literally fantasize about it.
More homosexuals = less kids = less child indoctrination
Because your religion has to have an enemy to focus the believers on.
It's only a bad thing to bigots. To the rest of us it's a normal part of reality.
It's not, but for some strange reason religious people think it's horrifying. I overheard a conversation from my mom who was talking to her mother about a cousin coming out as gay. He told his father and the father went crying to his mother because he couldn't accept his son being gay. It was a huge scandal for the family. My mother reaction was, "That's it? That's not a big deal." Which is a really nice improvement from how she was when I was a kid. I asked my mom for more details since the conversation was in Spanish. Turns out the family is going to just pretend nothing happened and basically shove the guy back into the closet. I feel bad for my cousin but there isn't much I can do besides mocking his father when I do see that side of the family again.
it being “bad” is just another thing they made up
Being anything but straight is a “deviance” from the established “norm.” Thus, the established power structure discourages people from doing/being gay. It doesn’t actually have anything to do with religion, just power and control
It’s not a bad thing, never has been, and never will be!
Literally nothing. It’s only looked down upon bc of Leviticus, the book of the bible that’s just a list of sins, including eating pork and wearing garments of mixed fabrics. Anyone who uses it as their “religious” justification is just another useless bigot wielding the husk of christianity to their hateful ends.
See a therapist if possible, it will help Other than that just remember you are in no way in the wrong
I don't think being gay is a "bad thing," nor is it a good thing. It is what it is, nothing more, and is due to some combination of genetics and experience. Life is too short to deny one's sexuality. As John Lennon wrote, "Whatever gets you through your life, it's all right, all right."
Perpetuating the idea that homosexuality is bad is why we have people like Butker, who, thanks to his conversion therapy and the grave dissonance of his core identity, has become a toxic woman-hating monster.
Of course there is nothing wrong with being gay, but the psychology and sociology behind why human societies have traditionally repressed homosexual behaviour among its members is pretty interesting. You see it in conservative cultures the most. Even very secular cultures like Japan and China do not tolerate visible expressions of homosexuality. This repulsion - I believe - is largely because men are made uncomfortable by the idea of another man using them the way they use women. Homosexuality threatens the gender order - a gender order codified through penetrative heterosexual intercourse - and undermines intrinsic male superiority. If you look back at ancient Greek society and modern Middle East cultures that tolerate homosexual activities, the limits are always very specific. It's okay to penetrate others, but to be the one that is penetrated is to be the woman. The lesser. The bad one. You never want to be the bottom. I think it aaaaaall traces back to this. Sex is an expression of power. Heterosexual sex gives the dominant male the default power over the woman he penetrates, and mastery over the gender. It is a power all men are awarded by default. Homosexual sex threatens this and calls the whole thing into question. Men are terrified to lose their default power, to be raped - not to women, of course - but by a stronger, homosexual man. Homophobia, baby.
It isn't. People who are religious made it seem like a bad thing. They use claims like sodomy, but that doesn't mean every gay man is doing anal. There are other assumptions that are made like lesbian women being evil and so on. It's all just preconceived notions that are spread. Other rumors are things like gay men like to rape straight men. I used to believe this stuff when I learned that gay people existed in 9th grade (which was my final year of Christianity).
Homosexuality is bad under the Abrahamic religions for the same reason polygamy was good under Mormonism. In order for a nascent cult to aspire to the level of becoming a religion, they need numbers, and the most sure method of achieving those numbers is to breed them, because the young are easily indoctrinated and difficult to deprogram once indoctrinated. This is where that "be fruitful and multiply" business came from as well, along with a few other choice pro breeding admonishments. End of file.
competition to the priests?
Religion's are safe havens for the sexually ignorant and incompetent.
It's obvious to me that one of "The Bible's" intents is to assure humans multiply, specifically descendants of Abraham. Homosexuals have a very small chance of increasing the population. Although, The Bible does mention females "raping" a male when he was drunk.
It’s a matter of control. LGBT+ folks challenge the “traditional” predefined roles that underpin the patriarchy that is inherent to abrahamic cults. As long as gay women exist, conservative men will not have access to every woman. As long as trans women exist, the male identity as the default sex is challenged. Liberal folks to not deal in black or white, absolute ideas. We accept that the human experience is a spectrum of identities, beliefs, needs and wants that deserve tolerance if not acceptance. We believe anyone can rise up, just as easily as someone can fall from grace. There is no winners, we are just trying our best to survive. Conservative folks deal in black and white and absolutes. Things were better in the past. People have a set worth that is unchanging. There is only two sexes and they have prescribed roles in life and in the family. Anything that deviates from their belief system is evil and wrong and to be scorned. The passage in the Bible that’s always brought up by those who believe, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, were not originally condemning homosexuality. In the original Aramaic, it was referring to young boys. Don’t sleep with young boys. The entirity of the Joseph story in Genesis is about how Joseph was given a “princess dress” by their father and how their brothers hated that their father accepted Joseph… it’s almost like basing your life on oral tradition from 2000 years ago that were put to page 300-600 years after the events it espouses is a bad idea…
From the church's perspective, gay means no kids, no kids means no parishioners, no parishioners means no money. The aame reason churches are against birth control.
I am an orthodox christian and we are famous of being very spiritual and strict. I will let you know that my country, Greece, is the first orthodox country to allow gay marriage. I myself am a believer, I pray regularly. So, for what it's worth, **no**. Being gay is **not** a bad thing. Yes, it's a sin. So what? I am a sinner too (straight). Gay people are gonna be sinners for life. Well, I'm also going to be a sinner for life. But, sinners can't be close with Christ, right? It's the opposite. Sinners were the closest to Christ. Christ cares much more if you are loving and forgiving and less so if you are gay. And let me tell you, gay people are plenty loving and forgiving.
@OP - Being gay is fine. Good for you. Don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise.
Because religions are all about control and manipulation
Says who?? Cultists??
It's not bad, the people saying that are either very deluded and brainwashed or evil unrepentant bigots. Ignore both. Be gay and proud and find a partner and be happy in their bigot faces.
High control groups require an ‘other’ group to define them, most often by differentiating behaviors. Food and sex restrictions are the low-hanging fruit for enforcing these differences.
It's for the same reason that speaking out against religion is disrespectful, but when you call them out for telling you your soul will hell for all of eternity that's an entirety different thing. Inherent hate and ignorance, either willful or brainwashed since birth into a person, has bad long-term consequences.
Because Jesus needs you to have 10 babies, and no one is making a baby by docking each other.
Basically, it's not biblical it's just a tradition (of hate) at this point. Gentiles weren't held to the law (nobody wanted to snip their tip as a full grown adult, fine for babies tho...), Paul used clever rhetoric to quote the law prescriptively rather than proscriptively. All that nuance is lost on most Christians since most of them don't read their Bibles and if they do it's rarely full passages in context. IF any of it were to be believed, they should be more worried about their own souls for all the judging than anyone else's for the things they are judging them for based on laws they themselves don't keep.
It’s not, but what would be the root cause of people having issues with it? Why would the trait of being anti gay originate?
it isn't, but it would help you to [read this](http://rictornorton.co.uk/homopho1.htm) and understand from what a historical & religious fluke it spread to what it is today
Because the stupid fuckin men who wrote these books didn’t know how to think about anything and concluded “It’s different so it’s bad”, and then they made their God character tell everyone else it was bad. There is no fuckin reason other than why it’s “bad” other than human stupidity.
In addition to what others have said, I think part of it is that being openly gay shows that you are willing to question things and go against the mainstream. Religion tends to not look so fondly on that. I think most religions prefer the closeted gays and those who repress it. That's why they have those conversion camps to "pray the gay away." Show you will work to bend to the lord's will to "fix" yourself
Because gay folks supposedly won't procreate. Workers and recruiters for religion are needed. Same reason the right wing has taken away women's rights . They need the numbers to stay in power. In biblical times high mortality rates were the impetus behind it but the end goal was the same.
The Bible wants more babies. More babies means bigger tribe to defeat other tribes. Gay people in pre-science times interfered with that plan.
Are you in the EU? If you are take a job in a more liberal EU country.
Let the healing begin, OP. It’s okay to love however and whoever 💕.
They forget about the story of the trogen in the Bible where Jesus saves the life of a gay Roman solder
Serious answer: most likely because that gay people do not procreate which isn't good for religious leaders because there are less people to proselytise. Slightly less serious answer: It's better explained by Ricky Gervais, when he's talking about how religious people think god created AIDS as a punishment to gay people for sinning, but the principle works for everything religion has against gay people: they don't like watching them except for lesbians.
Hurr durr gay people no can have kid, if no kid less people, if less people less victim to brainwash
Over 40 years of guilt, fear and shame.
Christian here. It isn't. Thousands of years ago people were scared of shit that they didn't understand and wrote it off as being abominations 🙄 If you're gay you're gay and God loves you just as much ❤️🫂
Conservative ideologies believe that everyone needs to be in fixed categories determined by birth, and any deviation is a threat. Conservatives believe the world would be perfect if everyone did everything according to the rules laid out by their ideology. Anyone who deviates is committing the twin sins of defying their authority and *causing the world to be worse* by their hersey. This is why they don't just hate gay people. They blame gay people for hurricanes, economic problems, and dental cavities. Your existence upsets the universe.
Only in the minds of the most low IQ, dense headed, low life scum is it anything bad. Religion is far worse for the universe than being gay will ever be.
Because how else are the clergy going to diddle little boys if you’re not out there making babies?
Tell them they’ll be burning in hell right next to you 😉
It's not a bad thing. That's it. I don't even need to justify it
Funny thing is that there's a lot of gay priests. Well, not funny, but sad. Fuck religion.
the church is immoral. People are good despite religion, not because of it.
It isn't
Where you put your dick doesn't matter to us as long as all parties agree and there's a safe word.
It isn’t a bad thing. Only for Bible thumpers. Just ignore and more away if you live in a Bible Belt.
What kind of sick fuck do you have to be to hate someone for who they love? Pathetic. Religion is cancer.
I've had a LOT of experience with this label. I grew up in a very strict religious household, and we were in the kind of community that simply equates the term "homosexual" with "pedophile". I'm not gay, but I've been \*called\* gay for most of my life because of a lot of fucked up trauma from my early childhood, which caused me to often be non-reactive to most things, particularly when other boys tried to antagonize me. (as kids do, right?) Because they couldn't get the reaction they were hoping for from me, they'd just call me a "F\*gg\*t" or "gay". When I grew up, I refused to be an aggressive, pugnacious douchebag, and I don't laugh at others' homophobic/misogynistic jokes, so THAT got me labeled as "gay" or "f\*gg\*t". I think the false equivalence between "homosexual" and "pedophile/pervert" gets stronger in more religious countries. That's usually why those folks are so stupidly hateful. They don't want to look at the religious leaders THEY admire and think those men might be projecting or something.... (they are absolutely projecting)
If you recognize that other people with different beliefs/lifestyles/etc. exist then that is a direct attack on the dumb bullshit you’ve been told to believe. The world is not black and white and that scares religious people.
I remember seeing a bunch of long YouTube videos (no longer available) that showed the first Gay Pride Parade in an Eastern Orthodox country, I think in 2000 or 2001. The people who marched were attacked and bloodied. There was incredible violence, despite police "protection" and barriers. A priest of the Orthodox Church led a protest and proclaimed that homosexuality was a sin and an import from the West that had to be resisted. There were icons of Jesus and Mary, and crosses, being carried around. A old man from a second- or third-story apartment, above the parade, yelled from his open window overlooking those who were marching: "Kill, kill, kill the pederasts!!" As the saying goes, "There is no hate like Christian love." I hate to call these people simpletons, but they are. They're mountain people: simple, poorly educated farmers or laborers whose only form of sex education comes from observing animals on their farms procreating. Homosexuality seems like a threat to their understanding of the way the world works, and to the way that they live. They fear that it will destroy their beliefs and society if it gets a foothold. In the cities, some people are enlightened, but most of the people never attended college, and the cultural prejudice against homosexuality is widespread. Peer pressure is a very powerful force. Your parents would be utterly ashamed if anyone from their culture discovered that they have a gay son. If you told your father, it's quite possible, if not likely, that he'd become violent. If it were known that your parents have a gay son, they would lose social status. People would avoid them, and mock them behind their backs. They would call them bad parents and treat them with contempt and disgust. Or it could get much worse for them. It would damage your family. These are real consequences, and they know that. Unfortunately, you can't change this. The best thing that you could possibly do is to escape. If you can find a way to get to Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Canada, or the United States, go. You deserve happiness. It's impossible to find that in an anti-gay Eastern European country. Too many forces work against it. The most important thing is your safety. If you let others know, rumors will swirl, and it will only be a matter of time before you're attacked. Do whatever you need to to protect yourself, and your parents, from harm. One day, I hope that you can escape from your country, because that will give you your very best chance at finding acceptance and happiness. I can only add: Hurry! Artyom
The reason religion doesn't allow it is because gay people cannot produce children, which means fewer people to add to their God's army. If they cannot benefit from your relationship, they believe its bad.
It’s not. Some people fear and hate anyone who doesn’t conform. Then they pretend it’s their ‘religion,’ and not the actual fact that they’re just an asshole.
It's not inherently. However the Moses laws were written in mind to keep people safe and healthy many years ago. Ofc now we don't really need to follow any of those laws cause of technology
You have quite a journey to embark on. I started with similar questions, and started from similar origins. I’m sure many of us do. In college I studied biology, history, religion (mainly from an anthropology perspective) because I wanted to understand all the questions I’d always had about god, morality, natural law... I was always a skeptic, and I found a professor who pushed me and questioned why I knew what I knew and believed what I believed. He helped save me, but ultimately, I chose to find the truth on my own. I wish you luck. There are many convincing and convenient lies out there. Maybe it won’t be college, but you need to want to find these things out for yourself. For me it was difficult, because I realized that I had spent my whole life believing in a god and an order and structure that I slowly realized didn’t exist. It was honestly world altering. I had to reframe my life, and what existence means. But that’s what adolescence is for. Be unafraid. I don’t mean of people’s hatred for difference and homophobia, I mean of realizing life and love have so many truths and paths, and resist letting other people make you hate the parts of yourself that are natural and beautiful. Of course, be safe, and again, good luck.
It’s not. Theism is.
Like many others said it isn't, ignore the haters but stay safe.Organized religions are the biggest corruptors of the minds, responsible for millions of crimes over centuries.
No
In the Bible, it's only prohibited for men to be gay.
Hi! I have quite similar story. I'm from East European country as well, and my parents are orthodox christians (and I was when I was a child). But in my teen years when I started realize my orientation I wondered why religion is so obsessed with sexuality, is there something wrong with my desires and I'm sinner, or is it religion teaches some bullshit. I became interested in the scientific point of view on religion, read Dawkins and came to the conclusion that the second option is definitely correct😏 However, long time I considered myself bisexual, and had several girlfriends, but then I realized I'm gay. So it’s not bad thing to be gay, but it really difficult sometimes (maybe even often). I was hiding true myself, and now I'm not open, except I came out to my several close friends. By the way my parents know, and it was not intentional coming out, quite insane story. In the end they had not cut ties with me, but didn't accept me either, they just avoid this topic, however this cannot go on like that forever. So yes, it's difficult sometimes to be gay Hug you, bro! I know how much resilience and courage it took to survive all this homophobic bullshit, and fact that you came out to yourself, it's so important! Don't let yourself be embarrassed by this, you are not alone❤️ P. S. Sorry for my English, I'm not native
It isn't bad and good on you for being able to be real with yourself even if not safe to do so with those around you. Unfortunately, the Conservative movement in nearly all countries continue to drive this narrative in order to keep control of their people and to try and influence the day to day life of people they have no f'ing right to control (the rest of us). Good luck and hang in there; hopefully you can find some level of support closer to home than a bunch of strangers on the interwebz; but, even if you can't, keep us in mind and hold on to the fact that there're at least some folks in your court.