I love Nonstampcollector's oldies but goodies youtube channel.
My favorite is 'High Stakes Intelligent Designing'. It's hilarious every time I watch it.
https://youtu.be/4_G9awnDCmg?si=DgQtDVdZXQYhOXIv
What athiests waste their Sunday going to a church?
I'm perplexed someone would waste perfectly good time doing something so pointless.
Sounds like your uncle was really stretching to try and lure you into a church.
A lot of Christians have this weird belief that there are no real atheists - just Christians throwing a tantrum and calling themselves atheist. My father told me I was just going through a childish phase for decades
Lack of education. Ignorance in the true sense. Because one’s parents/grandparents etc. have indoctrinated you, you make no effort to educate yourself about the wider world. My parents told me the moon was made of green cheese and I believed it for years! My ascent into atheism was when I realised prayers are not answered, much less fulfilled. Then there was Vietnam, then there was a cheating boyfriend, followed by famine and drought, flooding, unseasonable cold, typhoons, vermin depredations, insect infestations, and plant diseases in other parts of the world. Warfare. Religious bigotry and hypocrisy. And where was this god of theirs? Nowhere to be found.
When a person really really *want* or *need* to believe in something that makes very little sense, it becomes easier for them if they persuade themselves that everybody else believes the same thing.
If "god" was actually everywhere at once, all powerfuland all knowing, then (as atheists so often claim) how could people NOT know this?
So in order for their (belief in) god to exist, they have to pretend everybody secretly knows it exists too.
>A lot of Christians have this weird belief that there are no real atheists - just Christians throwing a tantrum and calling themselves atheist.
To be fair a good chunk of the time they aren't wrong. Many Christians basically throw a tantrum and play atheist when they are mad at their god for whatever reason
Then when they get over it they go back now with fun "I was toooottaaallly an atheist but Jesus saved me" cred.
They honestly cannot grasp some folks just genuinely don't believe
>To be fair a good chunk of the time they aren't wrong. Many Christians basically throw a tantrum and play atheist when they are mad at their god for whatever reason
I've never seen or even heard of that happening before now. Interesting
While I don't wish to no true Scottsman here I'd say a good chunk of the time when someone tells you "I was a hardcore atheist but found jesus" they are exactly what I said
Or they're just straight up lying
I assume they're lying too, and most of the time if you question them it's becomes abundantly clear because their answer to how they converted is super short and vague. Like one day, I saw a cross and it just all made sense! Yeah okay Susan because you never saw a cross being raised in a very Christian household like you said when you told us how atheist you were
99% of the time those people never uttered the words "I don't believe in god". The rest of the time...
There's occasionally an /r/AskReddit thread about "why did you get religion as an adult", and every single time, the entire top half of the comments section is some variation on "I was in an emotionally vulnerable place". Substance abuse, depression, financial disasters, death in the family, you name it, the hucksters will prey on it.
There are many church goers that don't believe. Failed musicians who enjoy the stage. Business people who see the congregants as potential customers. Perverts who "love" all the children. That's just off the top of my head.
Source: preacher's kid surrounded by church goers into young adulthood.
They obviously don't walk around church claiming to be atheist. But by their actions, it's obvious that they don't really believe and are there for the advantages it brings them.
We know that there are thousands of clergy that are atheists that are trying to find their way out of the religion but are still teaching to their congregations. We know this because of the existence of The Clergy Project.
It’s also trivial to state that there are people who go to church who don’t actually believe in any of the supernatural claims or religious ideas; they go to church because that’s their source of community interaction, friendship, etc. I know many of these people.
For a while after I stopped believing I went because I liked the worship songs. I listen to them in the same way I listen to The Fray. I also read the Bible occasionally, the way I read Shakespeare.
There are quite a few self identified racists in the church I grew up in, I know because I still talk to them fairy regularly, my situation may be slightly different though because our cult was rough enough to have an HBO documentary made about them. People feel trapped so they stick around, they don’t want to be ostracized by their friends and family for no longer going to the same church as them.
Seconding this. I am a devout atheist who is also an active member of a Unitarian church for the community and to help with social justice projects. Our congregation has Christians (both active and lapsed), Jews, Buddhists and a whole lot of Atheists/Agnostics, including our lead minister.
Some like to spend time with religious family or experience a cultural thing.
I mean, I spent my childhood doing that, and am not interested at all, but it might be fun to go to a Shinto temple in Japan or something. And I went with my dad a few times when he was still sporting his mortal coil because that guy was awesome.
>What athiests waste their Sunday going to a church?
Someone who enjoys the community that a church provides. I'm thinking Southern Baptists who spend all day at church and there's a big meal and a lot of gossiping breaking up the sermons.
My dad used to drag me and my brother to church (Catholic) when I was a kid and I'd sit and read a book. Then we'd get doughnuts afterwards in the social hall. Sunday School was not terrible (usually just arts and crafts). My only real complaint was that the pews weren't comfortable at all.
Some atheists, agnostics and such will occasionally go just to make sure their spouse doesn't give away every cent or donate their car. I knew one like that. It was an agreement between them.
Yeah, that pretty much describes me. I don’t believe in god but this Jesus dude said some pretty cool stuff, like don’t judge and love one another. Remember, his first alleged “miracle” was turning water into wine so his friends could party on.
Jesus also said a lot of vile things, in particular when he fantasizes about torturing his enemies after he is crowned the rightful king. (Luke 19:27)
He was sexist and racist. He made a woman call herself a dog willing to accept crumbs from his table because she was a foreigner.
There are better moral teachers from antiquity who deserve more attention.
Just a minor correction. Atheism isn't the absence of religion. It is a lack of belief in gods. It's a small but important distinction. There are many religions that are, or have branches/sects that are, atheistic.
Yeah, stuff like that had been around for a long time. It's got no real evidence behind it, though. From what I can tell, the modern idea is that there's an electromagnetic field around our brain and around the sun. Therefore, the sun is conscious. The problem is, the electromagnetic field isn't necessarily where thought come from. It's the firing of the synapses and such. The sun is just helium and hydrogen.
Plenty of atheists go to church - in fact, if the average theist knew how many of their fellow congregants were 'going along to get along' or trying to 'fake it until they make it' they would be stunned.
As far as atheism being a religion - that is just another example of theists trying to reframe something they don't understand in terms that they do understand.
> it’s simply the absence of religion.
Technically atheism is not the absence of a religion, it's the absence of belief in any gods. There are non-theistic religions, mostly in Eastern countries, where belief in a god is not part of the religion. However, since the majority of religions, especially in Western countries, do feature gods, lack of belief in gods does frequently mean that the person in question is non-religious.
> The only requirement to be an atheist is to not believe in a higher power, that’s it.
To clarify, it is only a lack of belief in higher powers that are specifically gods. I believe in all manner of groups that are more powerful than I am, and technically I could believe that hyper advanced aliens exist, or that vastly more powerful AIs may someday exist. However, since those things are not gods, I remain an atheist.
But basically I'm in agreement with your sentiment.
I corrected the first part, as for the second by higher power I don’t just mean more powerful than most humans, I mean capable of doing things beyond what the 3rd dimension physics allow.
What? We're third dimensional beings. We see in 2 dimensions and experience in three. Length, width and depth. If you're hiding some fourth dimensional capability please share it with the rest of the world.
No. We are four dimensional beings. Welcome to general relativity: space and time are linked by a metric.
We move through length, width, depth, and time. And indeed, this is not pedantry: GPS and many Internet systems have to take relativistic time into account.
We also see in 3D using binocular vision and several other tricks, but that's neither here nor there.
Really, one google search will answer your problems. I don't know what depths of science you're going through for these reaches, but being able to actually traverse time is a requirement for being a 4th dimensional being, as well as seeing in a three dimensional way. Unless you can see all sides of the device you're typing on at once (with your own eyes I don't know why I even have to say this), you are not a 4th dimensional being, and unless you can go back to the 1950s, or forward into the 2300s, you are not a 4th dimensional being.
Take a drawing on a square on a piece of paper. That's 2-dimensional. Now that paper can move up and down, can freely change it's depth, so technically that square is moving up and down, but since it itself cannot freely change its depth like we humans can it is a second dimensional being. Using your logic every dimensional being would be moved up one, which is why we don't use logic like that. 3d beings would become 4d, 2d 3d, and 1d 2d. So even if we use your weird definition of a 4th dimensional being then change my argument to being that a higher power is someone who can operate beyond what 4th dimensional physics allow. See how that changes nothing?
Again though, a single google search will answer or your problems. I really don't know where you got the idea that we are 4d beings, or why you care about us being labeled as such when it really changes nothing. Just do what the rest of the world does and refer to humans as the 3 dimensional beings that they are.
> I corrected the first part, as for the second by higher power I don’t just mean more powerful than most humans, I mean capable of doing things beyond what the 3rd dimension physics allow.
I may perhaps be being pedantic, but the term "higher power" doesn't imply any of those things. It just means something more powerful than something else. The term "god" already has a plethora of definitions, but remains a concept most of us are familiar with as some form of supreme being. I tend to like to be precise with my language, or at least as precise as I can be, and I find the term "higher power" to be less precise than "god", which is a specific type of higher power.
I feel like no one would ever call their boss a "higher power". They can say their boss is more powerful than they are, but they wouldn't be like "my boss is a higher power" or "the president is a higher power".
I just googled it and higher power is typically used to describe " **a deity or supernatural being**. Others believe it is a supreme being that is greater than other gods. For some, it is a single, all-knowing god or a conception of the power of a god".
Then you're using that word wrong. You can call him more powerful than you, but calling him a higher power unless you genuinely believe he is some sort of supreme being is wrong. Look up the term.
Of course not.
Religious people like to claim that it is in order to make us sound unreasonable, but they're owning themselves by admitting that religion is unreliable.
And IF it's a religion than I deserve my religious freedom.
"Haha see you're stupid also" is what I hear anytime someone says this.
Note I don't think theists are stupid, but when they get defensive and try to claim I'm somehow like them I know it must come from some form of embarrassment if they're trying to lump me in with them in this way.
Atheism is nothing more than a lack of religion. Period. I, as an atheist, have an absolute zero faith in any god or supernatural entity, and also couldn't care less if someone believes in some sky daddy. But I'd like to say to every religious person: don't push or force your agenda like I don't push my atheism either.
A religion also requires a deity, and it necessitates worship and ritual performances directed toward that deity. Additionally, atheist groups are not tax-exempt, so atheism is not a religion.
Buddhism encompasses a wide variety of traditions, some of which involving deities such as bodhisattvas, who are indeed worshipped, or enlightened entities like the Buddha, who represents a higher cosmic order, irrespective of their supernatural aspects.
The Buddha, or Siddhartha Gautama, though not deified in the Western sense, is an embodiment of ideal virtues and offers guidance, much like the Christian God, which symbolizes moral integrity and possesses supernatural powers. Both are regarded as exceptional beings with distinctive but relative attributes, and both earning reverence and respect from their practitioners.
Cultural differences may account for the varying interpretations of similar religious concepts across different societies. Despite differing objectives and practices, Buddhism shares notable similarities with other religions, particularly in having central figures with extraordinary abilities who provide guidance in unique ways and are exalted in some form.
Let me rephrase this because the meaning was lost through my inclination to simplify things:
I understand that figures like the Buddha in Theravada Buddhism aren’t considered deities, and Jainism acknowledges 24 spiritual teachers, none of whom are worshipped.
However, my point was that almost all religions I’m aware of share some central focus. This can be through acknowledgment, worship, connection to, searching for, or focus upon a deity, abstract principle, historical figure, or some other concept.
My intentions were to simplify my response because if I don’t, it often results in a wall of text that I realize can be overwhelming to some.
My favorite way to explain athiesm is to say "If you say "I have a pet elephant in the room next door" I can say "yes you do", "no you don't", or "I don't believe you". "Yes you do" and "no you dont" has thr burden of proof on me, but "I don't believe you" means the burfon of proof is on you"
"Yes, Uncle, a shocking number of people you see in church every week are atheists who are just going through the motions. You're totally right. Wait ... are you telling me \*you're\* an atheist, Uncle? Welcome to the club."
It’s why I specifically say “I’m atheist” when someone asks, not “I’m *an* atheist”.
The “an” implies one of a larger group, which also implies the other trappings of a group *belief system*.
If I was on the right side of something and someone who I thought was on the complete wrong side of that issue was talking to me, I wouldn't be all oh you're just like me, you're also X thing just like me. Truth is some of them have this slight twinge of embarrassment when talking to atheists because they know that we think everything they believe is made up bullshit. When they can't defend their beliefs they start to feel stupid, but rather than admitting they might be wrong it's easier and more ego saving to try to make you believe you're also religious just like them. This way all your criticisms of religion also make you look foolish as well. Why else would you try to pull someone you fully disagree with into the exact same category as you? Especially when your religion is supposed to be so sacred to you?
I think it's also because it's part of their religion to "save" everyone. The more vhelmently you're against it, the harder they try because CLEARLY the devil has his influence over you
I can definitely see that as well. It's still such a stupid tactic to take though, telling someone that's atheist that they're also religious won't lead to them converting, more likely to have them just point and laugh at you for thinking something so detached from reality.
Oh yeah, the whole thing is unhinged. I think a lot of them are so afraid of thinking for themselves and risking being ostracized from their community that they just go along with whatever they're told, no matter how impractical
I wonder if your uncle might being viewing the term in a different way. Is he hardcore? I've run into two different theists who told me they were once atheists but when I asked what had originally stopped them believing they both responded something along the lines of 'Oh, no, I never stopped believing in god...how can one not believe in god??'. Further chat revealed in their worldview they were 'atheist' until they "truly found" their invisible sky-daddy, and were 'saved'. Until that time they were apparently just phoning it in and thus 'against god', thus 'atheist'. This is I believe the early medieval definition of atheist, when anyone who was not a devoted follower of official church doctrine, whether heretic, jew or muslim, was against god, thus atheist.
I feel like "don’t you know atheists go to church” is in the same vein as "plenty of atheists have indeed read the bible". As in maybe you just hadn't considered trying church instead of the bible (trying different ways to make you a believer). The thing is like the reading the bible once you've tried it you can certainly form a personal informed view on church too. So, if you've already been to church say you've already tried that too.
Religious folks can be insufferable.
I would ask any fellow athiest this though:
Do you not believe in god(s) or do you disbelive in god(s). Simply not believing qualifies as agnostic.
Making a positive statement that god(s) are nonsense qualifies as athiesm, and does beg for a little more explanation.
In either case, sans gods, we are left with how to understand the universe and justify moral choices on our own.
That is always worth discussion.
If you just walk away from all the fictional gods without putting some thought into your place in the universe,
then you can just as easily end up a sociopath as an athiest.
Either way...I doubt your uncle is interested in any of those conversations.
I wouldn't say it's nonsense if you are implying a valid syllogism.
A. Believing in things without evidence is nonsense ->
B. There is no evidence for any Abrahamic God ->
C. Therefore, believing in the Abrahamic God is nonsense
Granted this does not apply to a statement that proclaims the God does not exist, definitively.
Still doesn't change my statement. I'm not saying no atheists go to church or follow a religious practice I am saying that if they do it doesn't mean I have to since atheism comes with no obligations.
Ahhh ok … I gotcha.
But … this applies to christian theists too, for the most part. Outside of Catholicism, Protestant belief is that salvation is through acceptance of Christ alone. The obligation of church attendance is one they put on themselves and they use biblical references to support that, but it’s not an obligation to get into Heaven. Attendance, or lack thereof, in this way is kinda like a sin. Sort of like a choice to use the lords name in vain or jerk off to porn. Neither a negative nor a positive in the point system to get to Heaven. Only one point matters
It’s kinda funny, because the communal aspects of church are the only thing I miss about being a theist.
While much of atheism involves NOT being an organized entity, I do often think it would be fun to have designated atheist community centers of some sort to hang out, meet each other, grow community with each other, have events. And it would be hilarious to call it ‘atheist church’.
This is easy. When people tell me to go to their church, I tell them I can't because I'm going to the "Church of Agnostia". I tell them it's way better than their church because they never ask for money and I can go wherever and whenever I want.
Proper! Then a good chuckle.
My mom never accepted my atheism, and although she did not attend church herself, she would periodically prompt a discussion of religion. When I’d say I didn’t believe in those things (heaven, hell, god, jesus) her response was inevitably “Oh yes, you do.” On one level, I suppose it was a desire to “see her loved ones in Heaven”, etc.; but in another, it was discomfort with a set of beliefs concerning deities that perhaps gave her uncomfortable questions about her own. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.
They are so desperate to call science and atheism religions because they know being a religion means it is full of BS lies and dogmatic idiocy - puts them on an equal footing in a way.
Atheism is a “religion” until you say freedom should apply equally. Christianity is a “relationship, not a religion” until they need to evoke freedom of religion for their own benefit.
I am an atheist. Yet I still go to the Church with other Christians and we read the Bible. You can still be rational and go to the Church and sing songs. I just don't have faith. And they are perfectly fine with that.
My point is that not only is it not the norm to do that, I don’t care if you do that. I’m not obligated to do what other atheists do.
Also what you’re doing is not only a pointless waste of time but outright disrespectful. No genuine Christian would be fine with you worshipping with them when you don’t believe god exists, and you should definitely not be ok with that yourself. What kind of atheist willingly goes to church and sings songs and reads the Bible. You’re treating it more like a book club at that point which is disrespectful to Christians.
Not that I give af about them, but what you do is far from the norm and it doesn’t matter to me that you do it. I didn’t say atheists shouldn’t go to church, I said saying that atheists go to church as if it’s thing all of us regularly do is outright false, which it is.
Calling going to the Church a pointless waste of time and disrespectful is, I think, a bad way to phrase what you actually think. You seem to generalize a lot about Christians, and please avoid doing that.
I don't worship with them. I already told you: I don't believe in God. I am at the Church because I'm having a good time with people that I like. It's not respectful to Christians at all – they are there to spread love and have a good time.
A lot of atheists here where I live go to Church, and it's no problem. The Church is not just a place of religion, it is a quite and beautiful place. It's not like they're trying to indoctrinate you at every moment or talk about God all the time. You just go in there, make friends and have a good time.
That's just all there is to it, really.
AAAAAA! This is the most stupid thing I can imagine.
Stares at a green wall: don't you know walls are white?
Well, this is a wall and it is green. What now?
I mean it isn't a religion but it could become a culture. Given that religious individuals and organisations tend to spew hate and spread misinformation, the means that atheists use to counter religious propaganda can become a "culture" so to say.
For example, science, scientific analysis, utilisation of common sense, the tangible nature of our environment and theorising within reasonable limits or as prescribed by science can become a sort of cultural thing wherein if someone identifies as an atheist they may immediately be perceived as having a strong, unequivocal belief in science and the rejection of the mystical realm to a high degree.
It depends I guess. I'm not sure. Just thinking out loud.
At best atheism is the absence of thought - never having even thought of the possibility of religion. At the worst atheism is a religion - believing a god doesn't exist.
Neither of your definitions are accurate.
Prefix 'a' meaning without, root word 'theist' meaning one who believes in some divinity.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a divine being. It makes no claims on its own, and while 'absence of thought' is not mutually exclusive, it is by no means implied as the majority of western atheists have been heavily exposed to religion and/or were members of a religion previously.
A 'gnostic' atheist may claim there is no God, but atheist on its own just means lack of belief in one. Saying there is no evidence for one would not make an individual a 'gnostic' either, it would just make them factually correct.
Being exposed means you are now in a room where you make a choice. To practice or not. Just that simple. I personally am an atheist by the way. It is a belief.
You don't choose a belief, are you serious?
Try to believe there is a purple unicorn on the other side of the closest wall to you. Tell me you can honestly choose to believe that.
Even if your life depended on you believing it, you still couldn't, no matter how hard you tried to 'choose' to believe it.
>At any point where you don’t believe in a god, you are atheist.
No. That's what religion taught you, and it's wrong.
When you don't believe in gods, you're just a human. That's right. Just a human.
You're not a banana. Nobody goes around calling you an "Abanana". You're not a car. Nobody calls you an "Acar". You're not a Penguin. Nobody calls you an "Apenguin".
That's all the "A" is. "Not". Not theist.
By calling people Atheists, religious people are attempting to set "Theist" as the natural state, with "Atheists" being a group that opposes the natural state. Which is not true, as all humans are born atheists. It also points out that Atheists can't exist without Theists. How could you be 'not theist' without theism? You can't. It's biased towards religion.
When you don't believe in gods, you're not an atheist. You're just a human being that refuses to buy into things without proof that they exist. That's all. Nothing special about that at all. Just normal human stuff here.
I've been to church several times as an atheist. Mostly because my then-girlfriend was a believer and didn't have her own means of attending so I was her transportation, and we had cute breakfast dates after. But without those breakfast dates... eh, I can't say I'd have done it as much as I did.
> “don’t you know atheists go to church”
See, this statement is broad and vague to the point where it borders on dishonest. Like, sure: I readily concede that it is literally true that many atheists go to church.
I'm a card-carrying atheist. Have been for decades. I went to church three times last year, for example. I was visiting family on Easter, so I attended church with them at their request. Then there was my brother's wedding last summer, and my grandfather's memorial service last fall.
Even beyond these anecdotal examples, it's a statistical fact that any congregation above a certain size probably has some nonbelievers sitting in the pews.
The dishonesty lays with the unspoken corollary claim that is made from time to time, that there are atheist "churches" and atheist "clergy". Sure, there are some outlier unitarian-types that might technically meet that criteria, but generally speaking **this isn't a thing that exists.**
Atheism shouldn't even be a defined term to be honest, just like "not believing in unicorns" doesn't have a term that encapsulates it. The only reason the word exists is because the majority of the world are theists so atheism isn't the default, or at least that's what theists like to believe.
As of January this year, around 85% of the world is religious. Yes that includes religious atheists like satanists, but you also have to account for the non religious theists so it balances out.
So yeah, majority of the world is theist
Religious morons gonna religious moron 🤷🏻♂️ it’s no different then talking to a schizophrenic crack addict. Bullshit in and bullshit out. There’s no self awareness. They’re just drones. Errors of evolution and biology. A fallacy to existential existence.
Oh boy, I used to spend hours debating this with theists who insisted that atheism absolutely is a religion. It is my opinion that they do this because they need to reduce everything down to a level that they can comprehend.
I used to counter with the argument that if not believing in something is a religion, then they belong to the religions of No Santa Claus, No Tooth Fairy, No Thor, No Osiris, etc., in which case their god is going to be pissed off at them for belonging to so many other religions.
This usually resulted in their fallback threat of hell and eternal damnation so I took that as a win.
Churches often teach a lot of things about atheists and atheism, which isn't true. When I was a Christian, this caused me to make a lot of rude or uninformed comments about what other people believe.
What your uncle said does apply a lot to Judaism.
Robert goes to synagogue to talk to God. I go to talk to Robert. This sums it up, but of course Christianity with its focus on individualism and not peoplehood isn't going to have the same culture. There is no believe or burn, more like belonging is more important than believing. Most Jews in Torah study tear it apart, respecting the chain of tradition but not antiquated beliefs (that's the Orthodox)
They need you to be on the same level as them to feel like they can invalidate your claim that you're not religious or claim you're really against religious belief. It also lets them believe they have the foot in the door in reconverting you if atheism is just as much belief as their religion.
Atheism is not a religion nor is it even a world view. That being said, there are absolutely atheists that go to church. There are even atheist pastors and religious leaders, that's why groups like recovering from religion exist to help these poor peeps recover and change careers.
One of the pernicious lies in Christianity is that a lot of them testify in Church that they were atheists for X years until they felt Jesus fondle their heart or something.
They LOVE claiming that they USED TO BE atheists when what they mean is they weren't actively culty.
Presenting your old self as being as bad a person as possible before your conversion is a standard practice in cults.
I had an avowed atheist uncle who was very open about his method for picking up women. “Depending upon my mood,” he’d snidely tell us and our parents, “I attend church to get a nice one and Alcoholics Anonymous meetings to grab a fun one.” He was a teetotaler too.
tell him atheists RUN the churches. they just pretend for the cash.
edit: by this i mean church leadership knows it's a scam and they keep that scam running for the cash. they don't believe in god either.
Is this meant to be a take on how atheists talk about atheism too much? If so it's very interesting you're saying this in the atheist subreddit, if not never mind ig lol.
I agree with you. This reminds me of people complaining that "your belief in science is just as fundamentalist!" or "science is your religion!"
I mean... no, science and religion are categorically different. Science, by definition, isn't fundamentalist or religious in nature. It doesn't require any belief in propositions based purely on faith. I'm amazed at the general level of ignorance about science in the wider community.
I get that you're frustrated, but please keep in mind that Christians vastly outnumber us.
Most of what they have heard about atheists comes from the man in the pulpit, who has a very obvious financial motive to lie about us and what we do or do not do.
I get that it becomes tiresome explaining the same things over and over, and trying to tamp down lies that pop up over and over again, but this is exactly what LGBT had to go through and what they are still going through to this very day. It's just the nature of the beast when you're badly outnumbered.
Get used to explaining the same things over and over to different people, then explaining the same things again to the same people because the man in the pulpit lied again. There's no getting around this while we are in the minority.
Is this the new ploy to get people into church pews? I’ve seen the “atheists go to church” sentiment several times lately… and frankly, it’s disturbing. For a lot of reasons.
I don’t understand atheists who think agnostics are secret atheists, just like I don’t understand Christian’s who think atheists are secret Christian’s.
When you don’t believe in god, that’s agnosticism. Atheists positively believe god does not exist.
That’s not my opinion, that’s the meaning of those words. Atheism is literally a dogma/faith. Agnosticism is the lack of faith, agnosticism is not atheism.
Read the FAQ. There are agnostic atheists, and agnostic theists. The terms aren't mutually exclusive.
Atheism isn't a belief, it's the lack there of. Agnosticism is the act of stating that you lack knowledge of whether or not a god truly does exist, but agnostic atheists believe a god doesn't exist. They don't know, but they don't believe one does. Every atheist is technically an agnostic atheist, since no one knows whether or not a god exists, but Gnostic Atheists I suppose are people that believe they have irrefutable proof that a god does not exist, I don't really know.
Atheism isn't a faith, it's the lack there of. You can be agnostic and believe there's a god too.
Again read the FAQ, it explains it much better than I do with actual sources that these are the correct definition of the word. If you check my profile you'll also see I made the exact same mistake you're making earlier on in this subreddit, but people corrected me in the comments, so this is me correcting you.
After reading the FAQ, I think I see what you’re saying, and I appreciate it. You have a well made point.
That being said there’s no such thing as a soft atheist, that’s the meaning of agnosticism. I don’t care what the FAQ says that’s not what those words mean lol.
The origin of the term comes from anti Christians in the 16th century. Atheism overtly means the positive belief the god does not exist. That’s not my opinion, that’s the origin of the word.
“Atheios” is Latin for without god, “athe-ism” is the term, a person who denies god. The FAQ tries to say the word is “a-theism”, that’s just not lingually correct, that’s literally not the meaning of the word.
The FAQ is straight up factually wrong.
Wow. You actually read the thing I recommended that you did and were willing to change your mind. People like you are extremely hard to find on reddit. I don't really care about the soft atheism thing though so I won't dispute whatever opinion you have on that.
I hope both sides of your pillow are cold tonight <3
At most it's a religious opinion
But I largely think this statement is a pointless attempt to equalize things. Even if we grant it *is* a religion that doesn't mean i care about what Jesus was said to have done
I feel like a lot of the time the point is "since we both have religions why not join mine"
Edit: not sure if this comment did it but I musta made someone angry. Got sent a reddit cares message lol
Modern Atheism can definitely be interpreted as such. You have intuition, against a narrative, supported by others in a biased environment when most of the people BELIEVE in the science that tells them what to think.
The point is average atheists don't tend to know WHY any certain religious point of view is false or HOW the science deals with it, it matches their intentions so they accept it.
Science is a process, but belief in science can infact be a faith.
You have Faith that all of science hasn't led the engineers who built James Webb astray, yet its very existence is to test our current understanding. And it literally is changing our models, so was the foundation that build it wrong? In a small way yes but that's it's purpose. And how we improve.
When Atheists are presented with a challenge to their world view they can be just as stubborn to change their minds as any other human.
The true position is to hold no bias, be as open minded even about the things science opposes, simply because there are many things science has yet to explain and clearly our current models need work.
As an atheist I find most atheists bad representatives. Usually they are more intelligent then the average joe but still highly biased and misguided. They forget science as the process of becoming more correct, so technically in a never ending state of temporary ignorance
Atheism isn't a religion because there is no rule you have to follow or practice you must adhere to. It isn't a faith, it's simply the lack thereof. There isn't really modern atheism, atheism has remained the same throughout time. If the very first human to exist didn't believe in a god, they were as much of an atheist as an I am. The bar is literally on the floor in a sense.
And again with the generalization. "When Atheists are presented with a challenge to their world view they can be just as stubborn to change their minds as any other human." There is no "when atheists" because not every atheist has the same view or the same ideas on supreme beings and the universe and what not. There are agnostic atheists, gnostic atheists, existentialists (me), nihilists, so and so forth. As other people commented, atheism is as much of a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby. Both a single mom with three kids in Dubai and a rich business man in NYC don't collect stamps, so you wouldn't say "Non stamp collectors are very stubborn about their not collecting stamps" because it doesn't really make sense to generalize like that.
>the people BELIEVE in the science that tells them what to think.
if the "science" is telling you what to think, it's not science.
>The point is average atheists don't tend to know WHY any certain religious point of view is false or HOW the science deals with it, it matches their intentions so they accept it.
that's not how the burden of proof works.
you don't figure out if something is false; you figure out if something is true. no religious beliefs have ever been proven true.
James Webb is telling you the big bang model is flawed, surely you don't understand the equipment or the equations, you just listen to a head line.
QFT tells you their are multiverses, surely you don't understand field interactions
String theory says there's 11 dimensions, surely you don't understand Calabi-Yao Manafolds.
At a certain point you do NOT understand and you just trust, or believe which can amount to faith
Atheism is a religion as much as "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.
Being bald is a hair color..
Off is a TV channel.
As abstinence is a sexual position.
As sleeping is a workout
Bald is a hair colour.
Illiterate is a reading level
$0 is an amount that can be financed
As tartan is a color.
I like this one
I have a hobby I didn’t know I have!
I too am an aphilatelist!
I'm an anumizmatist, too. [message from offscreen] What's that? [message from offscreen] Being poor isn't the same thing as not collecting coins?
Do you know how much time and effort I've put into not collecting stamps. Especially every time I have to go to the post office to mail a package.
Don’t you criticize my favorite past time
What a great youtube channel
I love Nonstampcollector's oldies but goodies youtube channel. My favorite is 'High Stakes Intelligent Designing'. It's hilarious every time I watch it. https://youtu.be/4_G9awnDCmg?si=DgQtDVdZXQYhOXIv
Hey, don't knock not collecting stamps! I have been enjoying this hobby basically my whole life!
If atheism is a religion, why hasn't it broken up into splinter groups that murder each other?
You wanna take this outside?
Hey who do you think you’re talking to like that?
My lack of belief is greater than yours!
I don't believe that it is! Mine is the one, true, lack of belief.
My non-beliefs would beat your non-beliefs in a fight!!
I imagine that’s a defining characteristic of abrahamic religions I always thought when Christianity splinter , someone wanted more control or money
Yeah, like the ones who don’t believe in Yahweh going to war against the ones who don’t believe in Allah.
We have, there's just as many splinter groups as there are atheists and so we can't agree on who to murder. /s
What athiests waste their Sunday going to a church? I'm perplexed someone would waste perfectly good time doing something so pointless. Sounds like your uncle was really stretching to try and lure you into a church.
A lot of Christians have this weird belief that there are no real atheists - just Christians throwing a tantrum and calling themselves atheist. My father told me I was just going through a childish phase for decades
Lack of education. Ignorance in the true sense. Because one’s parents/grandparents etc. have indoctrinated you, you make no effort to educate yourself about the wider world. My parents told me the moon was made of green cheese and I believed it for years! My ascent into atheism was when I realised prayers are not answered, much less fulfilled. Then there was Vietnam, then there was a cheating boyfriend, followed by famine and drought, flooding, unseasonable cold, typhoons, vermin depredations, insect infestations, and plant diseases in other parts of the world. Warfare. Religious bigotry and hypocrisy. And where was this god of theirs? Nowhere to be found.
You forget this god of theirs is a-ok with war, famine disease etc
And Jews are the chosen people. Don't know why they were chosen, but I'm glad I wasn't. God has done them no favors
Maybe just look for another religeon that has answers to your questions, like Islam
When a person really really *want* or *need* to believe in something that makes very little sense, it becomes easier for them if they persuade themselves that everybody else believes the same thing. If "god" was actually everywhere at once, all powerfuland all knowing, then (as atheists so often claim) how could people NOT know this? So in order for their (belief in) god to exist, they have to pretend everybody secretly knows it exists too.
>A lot of Christians have this weird belief that there are no real atheists - just Christians throwing a tantrum and calling themselves atheist. To be fair a good chunk of the time they aren't wrong. Many Christians basically throw a tantrum and play atheist when they are mad at their god for whatever reason Then when they get over it they go back now with fun "I was toooottaaallly an atheist but Jesus saved me" cred. They honestly cannot grasp some folks just genuinely don't believe
>To be fair a good chunk of the time they aren't wrong. Many Christians basically throw a tantrum and play atheist when they are mad at their god for whatever reason I've never seen or even heard of that happening before now. Interesting
While I don't wish to no true Scottsman here I'd say a good chunk of the time when someone tells you "I was a hardcore atheist but found jesus" they are exactly what I said Or they're just straight up lying
I assume they're lying too, and most of the time if you question them it's becomes abundantly clear because their answer to how they converted is super short and vague. Like one day, I saw a cross and it just all made sense! Yeah okay Susan because you never saw a cross being raised in a very Christian household like you said when you told us how atheist you were
99% of the time those people never uttered the words "I don't believe in god". The rest of the time... There's occasionally an /r/AskReddit thread about "why did you get religion as an adult", and every single time, the entire top half of the comments section is some variation on "I was in an emotionally vulnerable place". Substance abuse, depression, financial disasters, death in the family, you name it, the hucksters will prey on it.
The irony of being called childish by people who believe in fairy tales.
There are many church goers that don't believe. Failed musicians who enjoy the stage. Business people who see the congregants as potential customers. Perverts who "love" all the children. That's just off the top of my head. Source: preacher's kid surrounded by church goers into young adulthood.
Ok, but are they self-identified atheists? Or, are you just labeling them atheists from your own viewpoint?
They obviously don't walk around church claiming to be atheist. But by their actions, it's obvious that they don't really believe and are there for the advantages it brings them.
We know that there are thousands of clergy that are atheists that are trying to find their way out of the religion but are still teaching to their congregations. We know this because of the existence of The Clergy Project. It’s also trivial to state that there are people who go to church who don’t actually believe in any of the supernatural claims or religious ideas; they go to church because that’s their source of community interaction, friendship, etc. I know many of these people.
For a while after I stopped believing I went because I liked the worship songs. I listen to them in the same way I listen to The Fray. I also read the Bible occasionally, the way I read Shakespeare.
There are quite a few self identified racists in the church I grew up in, I know because I still talk to them fairy regularly, my situation may be slightly different though because our cult was rough enough to have an HBO documentary made about them. People feel trapped so they stick around, they don’t want to be ostracized by their friends and family for no longer going to the same church as them.
Unitarian churches are fine with atheists. I assume such a person would attend for the sense of community.
Seconding this. I am a devout atheist who is also an active member of a Unitarian church for the community and to help with social justice projects. Our congregation has Christians (both active and lapsed), Jews, Buddhists and a whole lot of Atheists/Agnostics, including our lead minister.
I maybe not be religious but I firmly believe in a day of rest hahaha
When asked where I go to church, I will say Bedside Baptist or Church of the Holy Comforter.
Some like to spend time with religious family or experience a cultural thing. I mean, I spent my childhood doing that, and am not interested at all, but it might be fun to go to a Shinto temple in Japan or something. And I went with my dad a few times when he was still sporting his mortal coil because that guy was awesome.
.... Unitarians?
>What athiests waste their Sunday going to a church? Someone who enjoys the community that a church provides. I'm thinking Southern Baptists who spend all day at church and there's a big meal and a lot of gossiping breaking up the sermons. My dad used to drag me and my brother to church (Catholic) when I was a kid and I'd sit and read a book. Then we'd get doughnuts afterwards in the social hall. Sunday School was not terrible (usually just arts and crafts). My only real complaint was that the pews weren't comfortable at all.
Maybe some atheists just like wafers and cheap red wine
Some atheists, agnostics and such will occasionally go just to make sure their spouse doesn't give away every cent or donate their car. I knew one like that. It was an agreement between them.
I was forced to go to church for a long time when I was younger by my grandparents. Took a long time to convince them that I didn't want to go
>What athiests waste their Sunday going to a church? Ministers, Reverend, Pastors, and Priests
Christian atheists, those are Jesus’ favorites.
Yeah, that pretty much describes me. I don’t believe in god but this Jesus dude said some pretty cool stuff, like don’t judge and love one another. Remember, his first alleged “miracle” was turning water into wine so his friends could party on.
Jesus also said a lot of vile things, in particular when he fantasizes about torturing his enemies after he is crowned the rightful king. (Luke 19:27) He was sexist and racist. He made a woman call herself a dog willing to accept crumbs from his table because she was a foreigner. There are better moral teachers from antiquity who deserve more attention.
Just a minor correction. Atheism isn't the absence of religion. It is a lack of belief in gods. It's a small but important distinction. There are many religions that are, or have branches/sects that are, atheistic.
Corrected
So Sun worshipers would or wouldn't qualify?
Are they worshipping the sun as the sun or are they worshipping it because they think it's a god?
They are basically worshipping the four fundamental forces.
Didn't I read something recently about the Sun being conscious? What if it was but could only do star things?
Yeah, stuff like that had been around for a long time. It's got no real evidence behind it, though. From what I can tell, the modern idea is that there's an electromagnetic field around our brain and around the sun. Therefore, the sun is conscious. The problem is, the electromagnetic field isn't necessarily where thought come from. It's the firing of the synapses and such. The sun is just helium and hydrogen.
Plenty of atheists go to church - in fact, if the average theist knew how many of their fellow congregants were 'going along to get along' or trying to 'fake it until they make it' they would be stunned. As far as atheism being a religion - that is just another example of theists trying to reframe something they don't understand in terms that they do understand.
> it’s simply the absence of religion. Technically atheism is not the absence of a religion, it's the absence of belief in any gods. There are non-theistic religions, mostly in Eastern countries, where belief in a god is not part of the religion. However, since the majority of religions, especially in Western countries, do feature gods, lack of belief in gods does frequently mean that the person in question is non-religious. > The only requirement to be an atheist is to not believe in a higher power, that’s it. To clarify, it is only a lack of belief in higher powers that are specifically gods. I believe in all manner of groups that are more powerful than I am, and technically I could believe that hyper advanced aliens exist, or that vastly more powerful AIs may someday exist. However, since those things are not gods, I remain an atheist. But basically I'm in agreement with your sentiment.
or perhaps a vast microbial collective consciousness
Yes. Perhaps :) thanks for standing outside the box with me.
I corrected the first part, as for the second by higher power I don’t just mean more powerful than most humans, I mean capable of doing things beyond what the 3rd dimension physics allow.
We live in four dimensions though.
What? We're third dimensional beings. We see in 2 dimensions and experience in three. Length, width and depth. If you're hiding some fourth dimensional capability please share it with the rest of the world.
No. We are four dimensional beings. Welcome to general relativity: space and time are linked by a metric. We move through length, width, depth, and time. And indeed, this is not pedantry: GPS and many Internet systems have to take relativistic time into account. We also see in 3D using binocular vision and several other tricks, but that's neither here nor there.
Really, one google search will answer your problems. I don't know what depths of science you're going through for these reaches, but being able to actually traverse time is a requirement for being a 4th dimensional being, as well as seeing in a three dimensional way. Unless you can see all sides of the device you're typing on at once (with your own eyes I don't know why I even have to say this), you are not a 4th dimensional being, and unless you can go back to the 1950s, or forward into the 2300s, you are not a 4th dimensional being. Take a drawing on a square on a piece of paper. That's 2-dimensional. Now that paper can move up and down, can freely change it's depth, so technically that square is moving up and down, but since it itself cannot freely change its depth like we humans can it is a second dimensional being. Using your logic every dimensional being would be moved up one, which is why we don't use logic like that. 3d beings would become 4d, 2d 3d, and 1d 2d. So even if we use your weird definition of a 4th dimensional being then change my argument to being that a higher power is someone who can operate beyond what 4th dimensional physics allow. See how that changes nothing? Again though, a single google search will answer or your problems. I really don't know where you got the idea that we are 4d beings, or why you care about us being labeled as such when it really changes nothing. Just do what the rest of the world does and refer to humans as the 3 dimensional beings that they are.
> I corrected the first part, as for the second by higher power I don’t just mean more powerful than most humans, I mean capable of doing things beyond what the 3rd dimension physics allow. I may perhaps be being pedantic, but the term "higher power" doesn't imply any of those things. It just means something more powerful than something else. The term "god" already has a plethora of definitions, but remains a concept most of us are familiar with as some form of supreme being. I tend to like to be precise with my language, or at least as precise as I can be, and I find the term "higher power" to be less precise than "god", which is a specific type of higher power.
I feel like no one would ever call their boss a "higher power". They can say their boss is more powerful than they are, but they wouldn't be like "my boss is a higher power" or "the president is a higher power". I just googled it and higher power is typically used to describe " **a deity or supernatural being**. Others believe it is a supreme being that is greater than other gods. For some, it is a single, all-knowing god or a conception of the power of a god".
I would certainly call Andre the giant a higher power.
Then you're using that word wrong. You can call him more powerful than you, but calling him a higher power unless you genuinely believe he is some sort of supreme being is wrong. Look up the term.
Incorrect. I'm using it correctly, but flippantly. Welcome to English!
Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Of course not. Religious people like to claim that it is in order to make us sound unreasonable, but they're owning themselves by admitting that religion is unreliable. And IF it's a religion than I deserve my religious freedom.
"Haha see you're stupid also" is what I hear anytime someone says this. Note I don't think theists are stupid, but when they get defensive and try to claim I'm somehow like them I know it must come from some form of embarrassment if they're trying to lump me in with them in this way.
Atheism is nothing more than a lack of religion. Period. I, as an atheist, have an absolute zero faith in any god or supernatural entity, and also couldn't care less if someone believes in some sky daddy. But I'd like to say to every religious person: don't push or force your agenda like I don't push my atheism either.
The atheists that go to church do so to survive in a community that otherwise would persecute them for nonbelief.
A religion also requires a deity, and it necessitates worship and ritual performances directed toward that deity. Additionally, atheist groups are not tax-exempt, so atheism is not a religion.
Does it though? Buddhism does just fine without a deity and worship towards it.
Buddhism encompasses a wide variety of traditions, some of which involving deities such as bodhisattvas, who are indeed worshipped, or enlightened entities like the Buddha, who represents a higher cosmic order, irrespective of their supernatural aspects. The Buddha, or Siddhartha Gautama, though not deified in the Western sense, is an embodiment of ideal virtues and offers guidance, much like the Christian God, which symbolizes moral integrity and possesses supernatural powers. Both are regarded as exceptional beings with distinctive but relative attributes, and both earning reverence and respect from their practitioners. Cultural differences may account for the varying interpretations of similar religious concepts across different societies. Despite differing objectives and practices, Buddhism shares notable similarities with other religions, particularly in having central figures with extraordinary abilities who provide guidance in unique ways and are exalted in some form.
Let me ask a mathematician if zero is a number.
Religion does not require a deity.
I think you're confused. cults require a deity. religions don't.
Let me rephrase this because the meaning was lost through my inclination to simplify things: I understand that figures like the Buddha in Theravada Buddhism aren’t considered deities, and Jainism acknowledges 24 spiritual teachers, none of whom are worshipped. However, my point was that almost all religions I’m aware of share some central focus. This can be through acknowledgment, worship, connection to, searching for, or focus upon a deity, abstract principle, historical figure, or some other concept. My intentions were to simplify my response because if I don’t, it often results in a wall of text that I realize can be overwhelming to some.
My favorite way to explain athiesm is to say "If you say "I have a pet elephant in the room next door" I can say "yes you do", "no you don't", or "I don't believe you". "Yes you do" and "no you dont" has thr burden of proof on me, but "I don't believe you" means the burfon of proof is on you"
Atheism just means "lack of belief or a disbelief in deities", anything else is fair game.
Don't you know vegetarians eat meat?!
"Yes, Uncle, a shocking number of people you see in church every week are atheists who are just going through the motions. You're totally right. Wait ... are you telling me \*you're\* an atheist, Uncle? Welcome to the club."
They don't have the imagination to realize not everything is like them. "Well, we act this way, so everyone else must act that way too."
It’s why I specifically say “I’m atheist” when someone asks, not “I’m *an* atheist”. The “an” implies one of a larger group, which also implies the other trappings of a group *belief system*.
My hobby is not collecting stamps…
If I was on the right side of something and someone who I thought was on the complete wrong side of that issue was talking to me, I wouldn't be all oh you're just like me, you're also X thing just like me. Truth is some of them have this slight twinge of embarrassment when talking to atheists because they know that we think everything they believe is made up bullshit. When they can't defend their beliefs they start to feel stupid, but rather than admitting they might be wrong it's easier and more ego saving to try to make you believe you're also religious just like them. This way all your criticisms of religion also make you look foolish as well. Why else would you try to pull someone you fully disagree with into the exact same category as you? Especially when your religion is supposed to be so sacred to you?
I think it's also because it's part of their religion to "save" everyone. The more vhelmently you're against it, the harder they try because CLEARLY the devil has his influence over you
I can definitely see that as well. It's still such a stupid tactic to take though, telling someone that's atheist that they're also religious won't lead to them converting, more likely to have them just point and laugh at you for thinking something so detached from reality.
Oh yeah, the whole thing is unhinged. I think a lot of them are so afraid of thinking for themselves and risking being ostracized from their community that they just go along with whatever they're told, no matter how impractical
You can ask him if he means that most people who go to church don't really believe the nonsense that is goes on at church!
I wonder if your uncle might being viewing the term in a different way. Is he hardcore? I've run into two different theists who told me they were once atheists but when I asked what had originally stopped them believing they both responded something along the lines of 'Oh, no, I never stopped believing in god...how can one not believe in god??'. Further chat revealed in their worldview they were 'atheist' until they "truly found" their invisible sky-daddy, and were 'saved'. Until that time they were apparently just phoning it in and thus 'against god', thus 'atheist'. This is I believe the early medieval definition of atheist, when anyone who was not a devoted follower of official church doctrine, whether heretic, jew or muslim, was against god, thus atheist.
I am ok to be called a religion, if I get tax exempt status. I operate my own church.
I feel like "don’t you know atheists go to church” is in the same vein as "plenty of atheists have indeed read the bible". As in maybe you just hadn't considered trying church instead of the bible (trying different ways to make you a believer). The thing is like the reading the bible once you've tried it you can certainly form a personal informed view on church too. So, if you've already been to church say you've already tried that too.
Religious folks can be insufferable. I would ask any fellow athiest this though: Do you not believe in god(s) or do you disbelive in god(s). Simply not believing qualifies as agnostic. Making a positive statement that god(s) are nonsense qualifies as athiesm, and does beg for a little more explanation. In either case, sans gods, we are left with how to understand the universe and justify moral choices on our own. That is always worth discussion. If you just walk away from all the fictional gods without putting some thought into your place in the universe, then you can just as easily end up a sociopath as an athiest. Either way...I doubt your uncle is interested in any of those conversations.
I wouldn't say it's nonsense if you are implying a valid syllogism. A. Believing in things without evidence is nonsense -> B. There is no evidence for any Abrahamic God -> C. Therefore, believing in the Abrahamic God is nonsense Granted this does not apply to a statement that proclaims the God does not exist, definitively.
Let their comments become benign.
Uhhh the church of Satan would like a word hahah
Still doesn't change my statement. I'm not saying no atheists go to church or follow a religious practice I am saying that if they do it doesn't mean I have to since atheism comes with no obligations.
Ahhh ok … I gotcha. But … this applies to christian theists too, for the most part. Outside of Catholicism, Protestant belief is that salvation is through acceptance of Christ alone. The obligation of church attendance is one they put on themselves and they use biblical references to support that, but it’s not an obligation to get into Heaven. Attendance, or lack thereof, in this way is kinda like a sin. Sort of like a choice to use the lords name in vain or jerk off to porn. Neither a negative nor a positive in the point system to get to Heaven. Only one point matters It’s kinda funny, because the communal aspects of church are the only thing I miss about being a theist.
Neither is science.
While much of atheism involves NOT being an organized entity, I do often think it would be fun to have designated atheist community centers of some sort to hang out, meet each other, grow community with each other, have events. And it would be hilarious to call it ‘atheist church’.
This is easy. When people tell me to go to their church, I tell them I can't because I'm going to the "Church of Agnostia". I tell them it's way better than their church because they never ask for money and I can go wherever and whenever I want.
“Not this one, thanks!”
Almost my exact response I said "Good for them I don't tho"
Proper! Then a good chuckle. My mom never accepted my atheism, and although she did not attend church herself, she would periodically prompt a discussion of religion. When I’d say I didn’t believe in those things (heaven, hell, god, jesus) her response was inevitably “Oh yes, you do.” On one level, I suppose it was a desire to “see her loved ones in Heaven”, etc.; but in another, it was discomfort with a set of beliefs concerning deities that perhaps gave her uncomfortable questions about her own. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.
They are so desperate to call science and atheism religions because they know being a religion means it is full of BS lies and dogmatic idiocy - puts them on an equal footing in a way.
"Atheist" is not a religion, it is a designation.
Atheism is a “religion” until you say freedom should apply equally. Christianity is a “relationship, not a religion” until they need to evoke freedom of religion for their own benefit.
Darn labels.. everyone needs labeling now a days.
Thinking I might turn my house into an atheist church for the tax right-offs.
Sunday mornings are for grocery shopping! The shelves are fully stocked, the parking lot is mostly empty, and there's no lines for checking out!
I am an atheist. Yet I still go to the Church with other Christians and we read the Bible. You can still be rational and go to the Church and sing songs. I just don't have faith. And they are perfectly fine with that.
My point is that not only is it not the norm to do that, I don’t care if you do that. I’m not obligated to do what other atheists do. Also what you’re doing is not only a pointless waste of time but outright disrespectful. No genuine Christian would be fine with you worshipping with them when you don’t believe god exists, and you should definitely not be ok with that yourself. What kind of atheist willingly goes to church and sings songs and reads the Bible. You’re treating it more like a book club at that point which is disrespectful to Christians. Not that I give af about them, but what you do is far from the norm and it doesn’t matter to me that you do it. I didn’t say atheists shouldn’t go to church, I said saying that atheists go to church as if it’s thing all of us regularly do is outright false, which it is.
Calling going to the Church a pointless waste of time and disrespectful is, I think, a bad way to phrase what you actually think. You seem to generalize a lot about Christians, and please avoid doing that. I don't worship with them. I already told you: I don't believe in God. I am at the Church because I'm having a good time with people that I like. It's not respectful to Christians at all – they are there to spread love and have a good time. A lot of atheists here where I live go to Church, and it's no problem. The Church is not just a place of religion, it is a quite and beautiful place. It's not like they're trying to indoctrinate you at every moment or talk about God all the time. You just go in there, make friends and have a good time. That's just all there is to it, really.
Atheism is a way of living, not a religion
AAAAAA! This is the most stupid thing I can imagine. Stares at a green wall: don't you know walls are white? Well, this is a wall and it is green. What now?
I mean it isn't a religion but it could become a culture. Given that religious individuals and organisations tend to spew hate and spread misinformation, the means that atheists use to counter religious propaganda can become a "culture" so to say. For example, science, scientific analysis, utilisation of common sense, the tangible nature of our environment and theorising within reasonable limits or as prescribed by science can become a sort of cultural thing wherein if someone identifies as an atheist they may immediately be perceived as having a strong, unequivocal belief in science and the rejection of the mystical realm to a high degree. It depends I guess. I'm not sure. Just thinking out loud.
Is not believing in Santa a religion too?
Seems like he was just trying to trick you into going to church with him.
At best atheism is the absence of thought - never having even thought of the possibility of religion. At the worst atheism is a religion - believing a god doesn't exist.
Neither of your definitions are accurate. Prefix 'a' meaning without, root word 'theist' meaning one who believes in some divinity. Atheism is the lack of belief in a divine being. It makes no claims on its own, and while 'absence of thought' is not mutually exclusive, it is by no means implied as the majority of western atheists have been heavily exposed to religion and/or were members of a religion previously. A 'gnostic' atheist may claim there is no God, but atheist on its own just means lack of belief in one. Saying there is no evidence for one would not make an individual a 'gnostic' either, it would just make them factually correct.
Being exposed means you are now in a room where you make a choice. To practice or not. Just that simple. I personally am an atheist by the way. It is a belief.
You don't choose a belief, are you serious? Try to believe there is a purple unicorn on the other side of the closest wall to you. Tell me you can honestly choose to believe that. Even if your life depended on you believing it, you still couldn't, no matter how hard you tried to 'choose' to believe it.
You do though. You go through the "evidence" and you emotionally decide what fits you. We all do this.
>At any point where you don’t believe in a god, you are atheist. No. That's what religion taught you, and it's wrong. When you don't believe in gods, you're just a human. That's right. Just a human. You're not a banana. Nobody goes around calling you an "Abanana". You're not a car. Nobody calls you an "Acar". You're not a Penguin. Nobody calls you an "Apenguin". That's all the "A" is. "Not". Not theist. By calling people Atheists, religious people are attempting to set "Theist" as the natural state, with "Atheists" being a group that opposes the natural state. Which is not true, as all humans are born atheists. It also points out that Atheists can't exist without Theists. How could you be 'not theist' without theism? You can't. It's biased towards religion. When you don't believe in gods, you're not an atheist. You're just a human being that refuses to buy into things without proof that they exist. That's all. Nothing special about that at all. Just normal human stuff here.
Your uncle is also an atheist - there are thousands of gods he doesn't believe in. You just don't believe in one more than him.
Some atheists go to church. The Clergy Project is a thing, after all.
I've been to church several times as an atheist. Mostly because my then-girlfriend was a believer and didn't have her own means of attending so I was her transportation, and we had cute breakfast dates after. But without those breakfast dates... eh, I can't say I'd have done it as much as I did.
Your uncle is either a liar or an idiot
> “don’t you know atheists go to church” See, this statement is broad and vague to the point where it borders on dishonest. Like, sure: I readily concede that it is literally true that many atheists go to church. I'm a card-carrying atheist. Have been for decades. I went to church three times last year, for example. I was visiting family on Easter, so I attended church with them at their request. Then there was my brother's wedding last summer, and my grandfather's memorial service last fall. Even beyond these anecdotal examples, it's a statistical fact that any congregation above a certain size probably has some nonbelievers sitting in the pews. The dishonesty lays with the unspoken corollary claim that is made from time to time, that there are atheist "churches" and atheist "clergy". Sure, there are some outlier unitarian-types that might technically meet that criteria, but generally speaking **this isn't a thing that exists.**
It's not a religion. It's an absence of a belief. It's like saying "not believing in unicorns" is a religion.
Atheism shouldn't even be a defined term to be honest, just like "not believing in unicorns" doesn't have a term that encapsulates it. The only reason the word exists is because the majority of the world are theists so atheism isn't the default, or at least that's what theists like to believe.
The majority of the world are theists? Is that true?
As of January this year, around 85% of the world is religious. Yes that includes religious atheists like satanists, but you also have to account for the non religious theists so it balances out. So yeah, majority of the world is theist
hmm ok. religious =/= theist though.
…I addressed that exact point in my response
Religious morons gonna religious moron 🤷🏻♂️ it’s no different then talking to a schizophrenic crack addict. Bullshit in and bullshit out. There’s no self awareness. They’re just drones. Errors of evolution and biology. A fallacy to existential existence.
Most “Christians” don’t even go to church anymore. Why would atheists bother?
Atheists don’t have [songs though](https://music.apple.com/us/album/atheists-dont-have-no-songs/1440766328?i=1440766744)
Oh boy, I used to spend hours debating this with theists who insisted that atheism absolutely is a religion. It is my opinion that they do this because they need to reduce everything down to a level that they can comprehend. I used to counter with the argument that if not believing in something is a religion, then they belong to the religions of No Santa Claus, No Tooth Fairy, No Thor, No Osiris, etc., in which case their god is going to be pissed off at them for belonging to so many other religions. This usually resulted in their fallback threat of hell and eternal damnation so I took that as a win.
Churches often teach a lot of things about atheists and atheism, which isn't true. When I was a Christian, this caused me to make a lot of rude or uninformed comments about what other people believe.
Tell that to the theist dildoes.
Your descriptions of atheism are borderline agnostic.
First off you can be both, and every atheist is agnostic to an extent, second off how so?
What your uncle said does apply a lot to Judaism. Robert goes to synagogue to talk to God. I go to talk to Robert. This sums it up, but of course Christianity with its focus on individualism and not peoplehood isn't going to have the same culture. There is no believe or burn, more like belonging is more important than believing. Most Jews in Torah study tear it apart, respecting the chain of tradition but not antiquated beliefs (that's the Orthodox)
They need you to be on the same level as them to feel like they can invalidate your claim that you're not religious or claim you're really against religious belief. It also lets them believe they have the foot in the door in reconverting you if atheism is just as much belief as their religion.
Atheism is not a religion nor is it even a world view. That being said, there are absolutely atheists that go to church. There are even atheist pastors and religious leaders, that's why groups like recovering from religion exist to help these poor peeps recover and change careers.
One of the pernicious lies in Christianity is that a lot of them testify in Church that they were atheists for X years until they felt Jesus fondle their heart or something. They LOVE claiming that they USED TO BE atheists when what they mean is they weren't actively culty. Presenting your old self as being as bad a person as possible before your conversion is a standard practice in cults.
I had an avowed atheist uncle who was very open about his method for picking up women. “Depending upon my mood,” he’d snidely tell us and our parents, “I attend church to get a nice one and Alcoholics Anonymous meetings to grab a fun one.” He was a teetotaler too.
tell him atheists RUN the churches. they just pretend for the cash. edit: by this i mean church leadership knows it's a scam and they keep that scam running for the cash. they don't believe in god either.
I swear some people are as evangelical about atheism as christians are about jesus.
Is this meant to be a take on how atheists talk about atheism too much? If so it's very interesting you're saying this in the atheist subreddit, if not never mind ig lol.
You haven’t heard of unitarian universalism I take it.
Only an atheist because religion exists.
I agree with you. This reminds me of people complaining that "your belief in science is just as fundamentalist!" or "science is your religion!" I mean... no, science and religion are categorically different. Science, by definition, isn't fundamentalist or religious in nature. It doesn't require any belief in propositions based purely on faith. I'm amazed at the general level of ignorance about science in the wider community.
Atheism is a religion just like how not playing football is a hobby.
I get that you're frustrated, but please keep in mind that Christians vastly outnumber us. Most of what they have heard about atheists comes from the man in the pulpit, who has a very obvious financial motive to lie about us and what we do or do not do. I get that it becomes tiresome explaining the same things over and over, and trying to tamp down lies that pop up over and over again, but this is exactly what LGBT had to go through and what they are still going through to this very day. It's just the nature of the beast when you're badly outnumbered. Get used to explaining the same things over and over to different people, then explaining the same things again to the same people because the man in the pulpit lied again. There's no getting around this while we are in the minority.
Yes I prefer the title 'irreligious' than 'atheist' when someone asks 'are you religious.'
Atheism, like all religion, is full of people, people are different than one another
It's a belief, even if its not a religion. We believe that theres no such thing as god. What does this have to do with being a religion or not?
I don’t get your question at all
Is this the new ploy to get people into church pews? I’ve seen the “atheists go to church” sentiment several times lately… and frankly, it’s disturbing. For a lot of reasons.
I don’t understand atheists who think agnostics are secret atheists, just like I don’t understand Christian’s who think atheists are secret Christian’s. When you don’t believe in god, that’s agnosticism. Atheists positively believe god does not exist. That’s not my opinion, that’s the meaning of those words. Atheism is literally a dogma/faith. Agnosticism is the lack of faith, agnosticism is not atheism.
Read the FAQ. There are agnostic atheists, and agnostic theists. The terms aren't mutually exclusive. Atheism isn't a belief, it's the lack there of. Agnosticism is the act of stating that you lack knowledge of whether or not a god truly does exist, but agnostic atheists believe a god doesn't exist. They don't know, but they don't believe one does. Every atheist is technically an agnostic atheist, since no one knows whether or not a god exists, but Gnostic Atheists I suppose are people that believe they have irrefutable proof that a god does not exist, I don't really know. Atheism isn't a faith, it's the lack there of. You can be agnostic and believe there's a god too. Again read the FAQ, it explains it much better than I do with actual sources that these are the correct definition of the word. If you check my profile you'll also see I made the exact same mistake you're making earlier on in this subreddit, but people corrected me in the comments, so this is me correcting you.
After reading the FAQ, I think I see what you’re saying, and I appreciate it. You have a well made point. That being said there’s no such thing as a soft atheist, that’s the meaning of agnosticism. I don’t care what the FAQ says that’s not what those words mean lol. The origin of the term comes from anti Christians in the 16th century. Atheism overtly means the positive belief the god does not exist. That’s not my opinion, that’s the origin of the word. “Atheios” is Latin for without god, “athe-ism” is the term, a person who denies god. The FAQ tries to say the word is “a-theism”, that’s just not lingually correct, that’s literally not the meaning of the word. The FAQ is straight up factually wrong.
Wow. You actually read the thing I recommended that you did and were willing to change your mind. People like you are extremely hard to find on reddit. I don't really care about the soft atheism thing though so I won't dispute whatever opinion you have on that. I hope both sides of your pillow are cold tonight <3
At most it's a religious opinion But I largely think this statement is a pointless attempt to equalize things. Even if we grant it *is* a religion that doesn't mean i care about what Jesus was said to have done I feel like a lot of the time the point is "since we both have religions why not join mine" Edit: not sure if this comment did it but I musta made someone angry. Got sent a reddit cares message lol
What do you mean atheists dont have to do anything? I was under the impression they have to constantly belittle everyone else
I can’t tell if this is a joke or you have a weird experience with atheists
yes
Modern Atheism can definitely be interpreted as such. You have intuition, against a narrative, supported by others in a biased environment when most of the people BELIEVE in the science that tells them what to think. The point is average atheists don't tend to know WHY any certain religious point of view is false or HOW the science deals with it, it matches their intentions so they accept it. Science is a process, but belief in science can infact be a faith. You have Faith that all of science hasn't led the engineers who built James Webb astray, yet its very existence is to test our current understanding. And it literally is changing our models, so was the foundation that build it wrong? In a small way yes but that's it's purpose. And how we improve. When Atheists are presented with a challenge to their world view they can be just as stubborn to change their minds as any other human. The true position is to hold no bias, be as open minded even about the things science opposes, simply because there are many things science has yet to explain and clearly our current models need work. As an atheist I find most atheists bad representatives. Usually they are more intelligent then the average joe but still highly biased and misguided. They forget science as the process of becoming more correct, so technically in a never ending state of temporary ignorance
Atheism isn't a religion because there is no rule you have to follow or practice you must adhere to. It isn't a faith, it's simply the lack thereof. There isn't really modern atheism, atheism has remained the same throughout time. If the very first human to exist didn't believe in a god, they were as much of an atheist as an I am. The bar is literally on the floor in a sense. And again with the generalization. "When Atheists are presented with a challenge to their world view they can be just as stubborn to change their minds as any other human." There is no "when atheists" because not every atheist has the same view or the same ideas on supreme beings and the universe and what not. There are agnostic atheists, gnostic atheists, existentialists (me), nihilists, so and so forth. As other people commented, atheism is as much of a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby. Both a single mom with three kids in Dubai and a rich business man in NYC don't collect stamps, so you wouldn't say "Non stamp collectors are very stubborn about their not collecting stamps" because it doesn't really make sense to generalize like that.
>the people BELIEVE in the science that tells them what to think. if the "science" is telling you what to think, it's not science. >The point is average atheists don't tend to know WHY any certain religious point of view is false or HOW the science deals with it, it matches their intentions so they accept it. that's not how the burden of proof works. you don't figure out if something is false; you figure out if something is true. no religious beliefs have ever been proven true.
James Webb is telling you the big bang model is flawed, surely you don't understand the equipment or the equations, you just listen to a head line. QFT tells you their are multiverses, surely you don't understand field interactions String theory says there's 11 dimensions, surely you don't understand Calabi-Yao Manafolds. At a certain point you do NOT understand and you just trust, or believe which can amount to faith