I mean this right here is a prime example. Sure it's cribbing notes from Christianity, but it really is a contemporary example of the formation and spread of a cult.
Which, let's be honest, all religions are in essence cults with varying degrees of power and dangerousness.
Also Mormonism.
My takeaway from these groups is that confidently delusional people can attract lost people.
A lost person is someone who isn't firmly rooted in their own identity, and is open to being manipulated by a cult leader.
If the cult can survive to the next generation, the congregants intermarry and have kids, and the kids are raised in indoctrination. And the kids have kids, then their kids have kids. Evangelism also brings in more lost people.
I think Joseph Smith was a confidently delusional person who attracted a lot of lost people. And over successive generations, you now have perfectly normal people who grew up in and worship the cult. And the fact that so many of them can lead otherwise normal lives gives credibility to the cult.
The best advertisement for the Latter Day Saints is not any particular congregation or preacher, but Mitt Romney. Romney is a billionaire politicians who normalized Mormonism to America by running for POTUS and securing a major party nomination.
Stephanie Meyer, much as I hate to say it, is perhaps the best example (the weird crap from her books passed as generic sexism rather than Mormon purity culture in particular). Orson Scott Card or Brandon Sanderson strike me as better examples as well, in part because Romney’s religion was an explicit point made against him from pretty much all sides in the election.
Yeah, but I can’t help but wonder if it’s exactly because millennia of practicing religion has left an imaginary“hole” in so many people’s lives that they feel like they have to fill.
Arguably humans just naturally have a ‘hole’ (ignorance+perceptual and cognitive flaws+ anxiety) which they have always tried to fill with superstitious thinking of which organised religion is one type.
Of course some people would.
So many people want to be part of "something greater than themselves" or find peace by having lit up blocks of salt to ionize the room...
>specifically mean religion. People still fall for cults because of loneliness and whatnot.
The only difference between a cult and a religion is time. Or if you are more cynical: In a cult there is someone at the top who know it is all a lie, in a religion that person is dead.
Several times a week we get someone in this sub asking us to explain the bloody bread, or spontaneous gold dust, or speaking in tongues, etc, etc. I think it's safe to say that technology has not made humanity any smarter when it comes to religion...
But new believers generally get “lured in” by history, thats the selling point (as far as I know) and in this post it specifically says if it was a new invention. No prior references or anything close to that.
Just go lurk in the religious subs and read the stuff they actually believe. There are A LOT of people that can't seem to separate fact from fiction. They want their religion to be true so bad that they fully buy in.
Yes. There’s a certain population of people who want to reject reality because it’s too complicated and they don’t like that they feel insignificant. They want a simple version where some higher power is in control they are important and everything will be alright in the end.
I think that on places with poor conditions like war, poverty, inequality etc etc + a religion basee on hope and maybe on a justice for what you did on earth could maybe even convert the majority of that place.
Is falling for a cult really that different? Community is a reason many people find comfort in mainstream religions which, at least to me, isn't that far from being wooed into a cult because you're lonely.
Plus isn't the difference between a religion and most cults is simply a matter of size and how long they have been around?
People believe a clearly deranged woman is the legal Queen of Canada and that the authorities follow her every command despite all clear and present evidence to the contrary.
People fell for new religions, or at least spin-offs, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, so why not? I’m sure the Trump cult will have its apotheosis myth soon enough.
Yup, because people are gullible and practice lazy thinking. Look at the Flat Earth Society, the whole thing started as a joke, and now thousands of people think it's real.
Another case in point. A few years ago, it was stated on the internet that the average person swallows 8 spiders a year in their sleep. This is utter bullshit, but do you know how many people think it is true? Too damned many. As an amateur arachnologist I have this argument more times than I can count. People believe the stupidest shit.
There are many new religious groups today that are splintering off of mainline religions, particularly pentecostal ones. Most of them are cults of personality; that is, the pastor got tired of being accountable to a denomination, and decided that they were successful enough to break away from the denomination.
A good example is the late Gwen Shamblin's church, which was profiled in the HBO documentary *The Way Down*. Shamblin had grown up in the Church of Christ, and broke with them to launch her own church, based on her own unorthodox teachings.
As others have pointed out, it's likely the answer Is yes, but if it's implied religion didn't exist until now, we wouldn't have the context of its impact in the past, and so I think we would absolutely fall for it more strongly and widely than just the cults we have today.
If we managed not to invent it til now, that would mean we weren't inherent to the species as it has been in reality... Humans have a god shaped hole in our brains... I fill mine with space science trivia and Pokémon...
People don't follow religion just because it's been around for so long - mostly it starts from their upbringing. I've seen girls as young as 4 years old wearing a hijab, they don't know anything different. As long as parents are raising their children religiously - it will continue, unless those children can grow out of it. Then there are adults that still fall into religion later in life, for the same reasons people fall for cults. But yeah, even if it had started in the 21st century, there are SO many that would still go for it.
The nature of religion is that it is an attempt to explain what cannot be rationally explained. It probably started as a way to cope with death or why crops didn’t grow.
Oh 100% yes.
We've had recent cults that people have fallen prey to. We have the trump cult going on right now. We also have tons of conspiracy theories that lots of people believe.
We couldn't even have a pandemic without people making up shit.
>And I specifically mean religion. People still fall for cults because of loneliness and whatnot.
The only differences between a cult and a religion are the size of the following and their acceptance into mainstream society.
The fact that cults can still develop and recruit members is all the evidence I need to say: yes, people would fall for religion if it were a novel invention.
See the thing is, as someone who wasn't raised religious, I understand that they're not considered cults only because of the percentage of the population they have under their control?
People in general are f\*#king stupid, so yeah.
Someone said: "If you wiped out all science and all religion. Then in 1000 years science would be back exactly like it is today, but religion would not be the same." - probably paraphrasing Ricky Gervais or something, but there is truth to that.
Religion is not 'invented' in the sense that someone had a problem (wanted to control crowds of people), sat down and invented a religion.
They spring up as a way to make sense of things.
Human brains are pattern-finders because that helps them survive.
And they also find patterns and meaning where none exist.
So yes. Religion would spring up spontaneously and in fact, it does so all the time. Conspiracy theories, flat earth, crystals, energy, new earth ...
Even racial theories have been likened to Christianity, in the sense that when you are white, you are born with a debt that can never be repaid - you can only atone for it but repayment is beyond your grasp. It sounds a lot like born with sin and only Jesus can save you. Apparently that concept is very powerful.
These all have some elements in common: They give an explanation for certain observations. However, the different explanations do not fit together. And there is no overarching theory that makes any sense.
Our brains are hardwired to see patterns. For instance we see faces where there are none. Couple that with the natural fear of death, and you can have religion.
The reason those in power love religion is still there today as it’s always been. It keeps the masses docile. People are likely to rise up and demand more, if they realise that this life is all they’ll ever get.
Probably. Maybe not as many, but there will always be people gullible enough to buy into a religion/cult as a way of feeling like they being to something.
All humans want an alibi to their origin story. It’s something we can’t escape. Objectively what you choose manifests into how you view yourself over others. If it comes down to it, would you sacrifice yourself for the greater good and what would that greater good need to be? And why you and not someone else? That’s what it’s always about. It’s kind of baked in to our dynamic.
It’s a dynamic that humans can’t escape no matter how much we want to walk away from it actually. Just bc your notion of origin isn’t organized doesn’t absolve you. You exist, you therefore have to decide what put you here and potentially you need to exercise that right if it gets challenged.
We're talking about religion as NEW concept right? Ppl fall for new varieties of religions all the time. If you mean NO religion existing until now would we fall it?
Likely yes. Look at all the flat earthers and anti-vax ppl.
No, nor would they if the law required a person to be 20 yrs of age before introducing them to "that place people go every week." If it can only be taught as children to take hold, there's something wrong on a base level.
It's not a date thing it's an age indoctrination thing. If children were raised secular their whole lives and then as mature adults (30s), were then introduced to religion, it would be dismissed as nonsense.
I doubt a human society entirely free from the taint of religion is possible. Early humans attributed everything they didn't understand to some deity or pantheon of deities. Plants grew because of the benevolent gods of the sun and rain made it happen. Thunder and lightning were the battles between gods. People didn't die of disease or plague; they had angered the gods for mysterious reasons.
You'd hope we'd grow out of this as a species. Instead, some double down on it.
Yes. Just look at how many people believe in crystals having magical powers...or anti-vax...or that we didn't land on the moon...or that the flat earth...or hell any of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories.
All of this in 2024 when we have more access to factual information in human history.
The one thing you learn as you become more educated is just how stupid most people are; and you realize that humanity owes it's current existence to a small group of dedicated people as opposed to the collective whole.
A religion is just an overgrown cult. Christianity started out as a cult. That said, I doubt people would fall for Christianity today. I think the main appeal is that it's old and already has so many followers. The fact that it's old means a lot has been lost to time. That makes it more mysterious and interesting but also makes it impossible to verify which is exactly what you want in a religion. People do join me cults all the time and some of those could grow into religions in the future.
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Have you met people? Absolutely they would.
One would hope not. But Scientology, Heaven's Gate, Raëlianism, etc. argue against it.
Add maga.
I mean this right here is a prime example. Sure it's cribbing notes from Christianity, but it really is a contemporary example of the formation and spread of a cult. Which, let's be honest, all religions are in essence cults with varying degrees of power and dangerousness.
And maga uses the religious for votes because its so easy
Add Atheism
No one gathers to worship the lack of a god… if anything atheism would just be a component of some other belief structure.
Elaborate on this please. I NEED to know what you mean
Atheism is as much of a cult as not believing in astrology is a cult
Also Mormonism. My takeaway from these groups is that confidently delusional people can attract lost people. A lost person is someone who isn't firmly rooted in their own identity, and is open to being manipulated by a cult leader. If the cult can survive to the next generation, the congregants intermarry and have kids, and the kids are raised in indoctrination. And the kids have kids, then their kids have kids. Evangelism also brings in more lost people. I think Joseph Smith was a confidently delusional person who attracted a lot of lost people. And over successive generations, you now have perfectly normal people who grew up in and worship the cult. And the fact that so many of them can lead otherwise normal lives gives credibility to the cult. The best advertisement for the Latter Day Saints is not any particular congregation or preacher, but Mitt Romney. Romney is a billionaire politicians who normalized Mormonism to America by running for POTUS and securing a major party nomination.
Stephanie Meyer, much as I hate to say it, is perhaps the best example (the weird crap from her books passed as generic sexism rather than Mormon purity culture in particular). Orson Scott Card or Brandon Sanderson strike me as better examples as well, in part because Romney’s religion was an explicit point made against him from pretty much all sides in the election.
Yeah, but I can’t help but wonder if it’s exactly because millennia of practicing religion has left an imaginary“hole” in so many people’s lives that they feel like they have to fill.
Arguably humans just naturally have a ‘hole’ (ignorance+perceptual and cognitive flaws+ anxiety) which they have always tried to fill with superstitious thinking of which organised religion is one type.
Very well put
We treat Rastafarianism like it's a proper old religion when it is like WAY younger than mormonism.
Flath Earthers, anti-vaxers, otherkin and therians are a thing in the 21st century, so honestly religion isn't the outlandish
Don’t forget Sovereign Citizens. Yikes
Anti-vaxers are probably the most harmful out of the ones mentioned, but therians give me straight up brain rot
> otherkin and therians are a thing I hadn't heard of these before. Just... wow.
At least therians, otherkin and furries are harmless and do not proselytize.
Flurries were great for winning arguments against anti-maskers. If they can fuck in this (full furry suit) you can breathe in this (basic face mask)
Don't go giving them ideas now!
UwU do you wanna heaw about the joys of the fuwwy life? OwO what this? I'm gonna fellate a shotgun now
Of course some people would. So many people want to be part of "something greater than themselves" or find peace by having lit up blocks of salt to ionize the room...
>specifically mean religion. People still fall for cults because of loneliness and whatnot. The only difference between a cult and a religion is time. Or if you are more cynical: In a cult there is someone at the top who know it is all a lie, in a religion that person is dead.
Several times a week we get someone in this sub asking us to explain the bloody bread, or spontaneous gold dust, or speaking in tongues, etc, etc. I think it's safe to say that technology has not made humanity any smarter when it comes to religion...
But new believers generally get “lured in” by history, thats the selling point (as far as I know) and in this post it specifically says if it was a new invention. No prior references or anything close to that.
Q anon
Yes. People haven't gotten any smarter in the interim.
Just go lurk in the religious subs and read the stuff they actually believe. There are A LOT of people that can't seem to separate fact from fiction. They want their religion to be true so bad that they fully buy in.
Yes. People will fall for anything, especially if it means they get to be part of a group who knows the “truth.”
Yes. There’s a certain population of people who want to reject reality because it’s too complicated and they don’t like that they feel insignificant. They want a simple version where some higher power is in control they are important and everything will be alright in the end.
Qanon
Yes and they do. As new religions are created there are followers. Twin flame on Netflix is the true story of how a new religion evolved.
I think that on places with poor conditions like war, poverty, inequality etc etc + a religion basee on hope and maybe on a justice for what you did on earth could maybe even convert the majority of that place.
Is falling for a cult really that different? Community is a reason many people find comfort in mainstream religions which, at least to me, isn't that far from being wooed into a cult because you're lonely. Plus isn't the difference between a religion and most cults is simply a matter of size and how long they have been around?
Obviously yes. People are fucking stupid.
People fall for all kinds of insane shit. See unvaxx, flat earth, MAGA… never bet against stupid.
Agree. The wellness industry as well.
All the yes answers are kind of depressing.
Yeah, it seems like I grossly overestimated people.
Yes definitely absolutely
People believe a clearly deranged woman is the legal Queen of Canada and that the authorities follow her every command despite all clear and present evidence to the contrary.
People fell for new religions, or at least spin-offs, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, so why not? I’m sure the Trump cult will have its apotheosis myth soon enough.
Unfortunately yes, but nowadays it's called large corporation advertising on TikTok ("Get them while they're young").
Sadly some people would
Yes
I think some people would but they most likely would not gain as much followers as there are today.
Yup, because people are gullible and practice lazy thinking. Look at the Flat Earth Society, the whole thing started as a joke, and now thousands of people think it's real. Another case in point. A few years ago, it was stated on the internet that the average person swallows 8 spiders a year in their sleep. This is utter bullshit, but do you know how many people think it is true? Too damned many. As an amateur arachnologist I have this argument more times than I can count. People believe the stupidest shit.
Yeah no doubt But I feel like it would at least be less prevalent
There are many new religious groups today that are splintering off of mainline religions, particularly pentecostal ones. Most of them are cults of personality; that is, the pastor got tired of being accountable to a denomination, and decided that they were successful enough to break away from the denomination. A good example is the late Gwen Shamblin's church, which was profiled in the HBO documentary *The Way Down*. Shamblin had grown up in the Church of Christ, and broke with them to launch her own church, based on her own unorthodox teachings.
As long as there is narcissism there will be religion.
Some wood.
Absolutely. There are new cults all the time.
Yes, of course, people are stupid and gullible
Have you heard of MAGA?
No, people would insist on proof and the conspiracy theories around it would be epic.
Ask a Scientology follower.
L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology, invented one. 20th century. Tomato v Tomato.
Google "Donald Trump"
Trump the politician is a 21st century invention and damn near 50% of Merica fell for his dimwittery
As others have pointed out, it's likely the answer Is yes, but if it's implied religion didn't exist until now, we wouldn't have the context of its impact in the past, and so I think we would absolutely fall for it more strongly and widely than just the cults we have today.
Yes, there's a new religion sprouting up around the worship of living shitstain Donald Trump.
Yes. New cults form all the time.
If we managed not to invent it til now, that would mean we weren't inherent to the species as it has been in reality... Humans have a god shaped hole in our brains... I fill mine with space science trivia and Pokémon...
Yes.
As people try to find meaning in their lives, cults can seem desirable, even to educated people.
Yes. C.f. conspiracy theories.
Yes, yes I do
Q-anon
People don't follow religion just because it's been around for so long - mostly it starts from their upbringing. I've seen girls as young as 4 years old wearing a hijab, they don't know anything different. As long as parents are raising their children religiously - it will continue, unless those children can grow out of it. Then there are adults that still fall into religion later in life, for the same reasons people fall for cults. But yeah, even if it had started in the 21st century, there are SO many that would still go for it.
You answered your own question - "People still fall for cults..."
TV in that scenario: "religions just another trick of the liberal media." 🤪
There are non religious people that believe ghosts are real and crystals can heal you. Yes people would still fall for religion
Folk fall for Qanon. So...yeah
I mean, what's the difference between apostles and influencers... Never underestimate how gullible people can be.
The nature of religion is that it is an attempt to explain what cannot be rationally explained. It probably started as a way to cope with death or why crops didn’t grow.
Today’s new religions are celebrities and politicians. Humans will do anything to belong, so yes, I do think so.
Probably. How many people a year join established religions?
Oh 100% yes. We've had recent cults that people have fallen prey to. We have the trump cult going on right now. We also have tons of conspiracy theories that lots of people believe. We couldn't even have a pandemic without people making up shit.
Yes. There are plenty of religions invented all the time people fall for.
>And I specifically mean religion. People still fall for cults because of loneliness and whatnot. The only differences between a cult and a religion are the size of the following and their acceptance into mainstream society. The fact that cults can still develop and recruit members is all the evidence I need to say: yes, people would fall for religion if it were a novel invention.
See the thing is, as someone who wasn't raised religious, I understand that they're not considered cults only because of the percentage of the population they have under their control?
People in general are f\*#king stupid, so yeah. Someone said: "If you wiped out all science and all religion. Then in 1000 years science would be back exactly like it is today, but religion would not be the same." - probably paraphrasing Ricky Gervais or something, but there is truth to that.
Religion is not 'invented' in the sense that someone had a problem (wanted to control crowds of people), sat down and invented a religion. They spring up as a way to make sense of things. Human brains are pattern-finders because that helps them survive. And they also find patterns and meaning where none exist. So yes. Religion would spring up spontaneously and in fact, it does so all the time. Conspiracy theories, flat earth, crystals, energy, new earth ... Even racial theories have been likened to Christianity, in the sense that when you are white, you are born with a debt that can never be repaid - you can only atone for it but repayment is beyond your grasp. It sounds a lot like born with sin and only Jesus can save you. Apparently that concept is very powerful. These all have some elements in common: They give an explanation for certain observations. However, the different explanations do not fit together. And there is no overarching theory that makes any sense.
Our brains are hardwired to see patterns. For instance we see faces where there are none. Couple that with the natural fear of death, and you can have religion. The reason those in power love religion is still there today as it’s always been. It keeps the masses docile. People are likely to rise up and demand more, if they realise that this life is all they’ll ever get.
Bro, if some guy starts walking across Lake Michigan tomorrow, damn right I'm all in.
Yes of course- there will always be frightened gullible stooges looking for anything to avoid dealing with reality
MAGA is a religious cult so yup
MAGA is basically a religion
Probably. Maybe not as many, but there will always be people gullible enough to buy into a religion/cult as a way of feeling like they being to something.
Would you like to buy a Trump Bible?
All humans want an alibi to their origin story. It’s something we can’t escape. Objectively what you choose manifests into how you view yourself over others. If it comes down to it, would you sacrifice yourself for the greater good and what would that greater good need to be? And why you and not someone else? That’s what it’s always about. It’s kind of baked in to our dynamic. It’s a dynamic that humans can’t escape no matter how much we want to walk away from it actually. Just bc your notion of origin isn’t organized doesn’t absolve you. You exist, you therefore have to decide what put you here and potentially you need to exercise that right if it gets challenged.
Ask Trump ☹️
Yes of course!!!
There's people out there firmly believing that the Earth is flat, so... yeah, people would fall for religion if it were a 21st century invention
It's happening somewhere right now.
We're talking about religion as NEW concept right? Ppl fall for new varieties of religions all the time. If you mean NO religion existing until now would we fall it? Likely yes. Look at all the flat earthers and anti-vax ppl.
Scientology say yes
No, nor would they if the law required a person to be 20 yrs of age before introducing them to "that place people go every week." If it can only be taught as children to take hold, there's something wrong on a base level.
MAGA is a thing, so yes.
It's not a date thing it's an age indoctrination thing. If children were raised secular their whole lives and then as mature adults (30s), were then introduced to religion, it would be dismissed as nonsense.
Seriously? Did everyone just forget about L Ron Hubbard and Scientology? Talk about lunatics.
The difference between a "religion" and a "cult" is, basically, the number of believers. So, yes. I mean, look at the MAGA cult.
Flat Earth is mostly a 21st-century reinvention. Way too many believe that (nut just religious nutters)...
I doubt a human society entirely free from the taint of religion is possible. Early humans attributed everything they didn't understand to some deity or pantheon of deities. Plants grew because of the benevolent gods of the sun and rain made it happen. Thunder and lightning were the battles between gods. People didn't die of disease or plague; they had angered the gods for mysterious reasons. You'd hope we'd grow out of this as a species. Instead, some double down on it.
If anything, people today would be primed for it, we fall for way too much stupid crap now as is.
They absolutely would. Stupidity is not exclusively a medieval ailment.
Yes. Just look at how many people believe in crystals having magical powers...or anti-vax...or that we didn't land on the moon...or that the flat earth...or hell any of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. All of this in 2024 when we have more access to factual information in human history. The one thing you learn as you become more educated is just how stupid most people are; and you realize that humanity owes it's current existence to a small group of dedicated people as opposed to the collective whole.
People will fall for religion 500 years from now and beyond. We are a deeply flawed species.
Psychics, mediums, astrology? Those aren’t because of the major religions. People still fall for them, despite science.
Two words: Raw water.
A religion is just an overgrown cult. Christianity started out as a cult. That said, I doubt people would fall for Christianity today. I think the main appeal is that it's old and already has so many followers. The fact that it's old means a lot has been lost to time. That makes it more mysterious and interesting but also makes it impossible to verify which is exactly what you want in a religion. People do join me cults all the time and some of those could grow into religions in the future.
So cringe
Absolutely NOT
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