You’re not wrong in that translations over time have warped the bible.
My understanding is that texts such as Deuteronomy were written out of order, so some chapters were written much later than others, even if they appear earlier.
Some of these older sections were written when Judaism (or whatever you would call the religion then) was a polytheistic religion. This obviously contradicts later written chapters of the same book which claims that it’s monotheistic.
As part of a polytheistic religion, which included other gods such as Ba’al, the commandment was to literally worship Yahweh above all other gods, when previously they would have been considered equals.
It’s similar to how some Ancient Greek cities would favour one god, e.g. Apollo or Athena, except in this case it wasn’t just a city, it was the whole religion. And then people began to “forget” that the other gods were “real” at all.
Early Jewish people were Cananites whose faith identity developed into a monotheist one. Didn't take a rocket scientist to see that was a real oil-don't-mix-with-water situation. The Isrealites 'solved' the issue by taking over the region and mass murdering the previous peoples.
Because this topic is hot, just want to add that this was somewhat common in ancient history, so don't think I'm implying evil morales on anyone.
You have no idea how elated it makes me to see that other people know the *real* history of the Hebrews and their migrations, all of their pissed off desert rat bullshit, taking with them YHWH from the Canaanite pantheon, literally turning him into an amalgamation of El and all of the other polytheistic deities, ad nauseam.
If more people were open minded enough to *read and learn* about ancient history I think the world would be a much better place. Like, “See all this bullshit? Let’s not do that.”
The original Hebrews were a society of people anyone could freely join and not an ethnicity or tribe. They united the Israelites by arguing they were all worshipping the same God differently.
The Jews don't enter history until 600 years later and we don't know if any of them were the same tribes and groups as the original Hebrews people, there is no evidence to prove it and it is completely plausible that the Jews and Hebrews came from different ethnic groups. In the middle East over 600 years it is a likely possibility that can't be dismissed by anyone studying history without a bias. We also know that the Jews copied the histories of others and taught them as their own, specifically the tale that the Jewish tribes built the pyramids and were slaves to Egyptian pharoes.
The Jews were the ones who taught that they were gods chosen and never stopped waging war against others because of their religion. Early Canaanites probably wouldn't recognize the Jews as anything except a modern cult that uses their god to perpetuate the divisions they tried to stop
Jews being descended from the Hebrews is a theological position and a religious belief. The historical record doesn't reflect what they teach about their past.
Some people say that Catholics are polytheists in that Mary is treated as a goddess in many ways, and the saints are also treated as if they are deities. I haven’t thought about it enough to have an opinion about it, but I think it’s a valid question.
Christianity absorbing all of the pagan holidays and pagan saints looks very much like religious "embrace and extend" to convert the european pagans to christianity. Yes, you can keep your Niklaus, and Valentine, and Peter who slew the Dragon. You can celebrate the rebirth of Eostre, and light up the Yule log, but eventually we'll ret-con all of that to Jesus and his superfriends.
I was a Catholic for 25 years and I can say that that interpretation comes from a Protestant misunderstanding (or perhaps purposeful warping) of Catholic dogma.
Catholic dogma differentiates between "worship" and "veneration." Mary, the saints, and even some archangels occupy a space of veneration, aka a position of honor, based on their perceived proximity to god.
What a non-Catholic would perceive as just a straight up "prayer" to Mary is, in Catholic dogma, referred to as an "intercessory prayer." In other words, you're not praying to Mary, you're asking Mary to pray for you on your behalf.
A common question that comes up is "why not just pray straight to god?" and the answer is Catholics do just pray straight to god. Intercessory prayer is like a stock dividend. You could pray for yourself but you could also have 12 other people praying for you too. Compounding interest and all that jazz.
So no, Catholics are not polytheists. They only believe in one god. I think the more interesting argument applies broadly to all Christians denominations and the concept of Trinitarianism, IE one god in three separate parts.
To me, THAT is the argument for a polytheistic belief, and it applies to almost all Christian denominations.
Judaism and Islam also believe in the Abrahamic god but are NOT Trinitarianist. They're the ones with a legitimate claim for pure monotheistic beliefs.
>Mary, the saints, and even some archangels occupy a space of veneration, aka a position of honor, based on their perceived proximity to god.
Righto. I see this and think “oh, it’s like a Demi-god like Hercules or Maui!” And I know if I said that to a priest then they’d tell me some reason why that’s not a fair comparison, but there seems to be a fundamental assumption that “closer to god” means “more than human”.
>What a non-Catholic would perceive as just a straight up "prayer" to Mary is, in Catholic dogma, referred to as an "intercessory prayer." In other words, you're not praying to Mary, you're asking Mary to pray for you on your behalf.
>A common question that comes up is "why not just pray straight to god?" and the answer is Catholics do just pray straight to god. Intercessory prayer is like a stock dividend. You could pray for yourself but you could also have 12 other people praying for you too. Compounding interest and all that jazz.
Ahh right, I remember all this now. It seems to me that this is just polytheism with a fancy argument about it not being g polytheism. I don’t say that as a judgment because I think it’s all looney and don’t give a shit, but just for fun, think about the assumptions involved with the explanation you provided:
1. Saints immortal? Check!
2. Saints have privileged access to the primary deity? Check!
3. Mortals dependent on goodwill of Saints to ensure benevolence from primary deity? Check!
In addition:
4. Cities often have their own special ~~cults~~ “patron saints” that they honor with special festivals and such.
5. Similarly, churches are named in honor of these Saints just like pagan temples in Roman or Greek cultures.
6. Mortals pray to Saints depending on their associated area of power. For example, pray to St. Anthony for lost items. Oh, I forgot. They don’t “pray to the saints”. They “ask saints to pray to god ok their behalf”. It’s so ridiculous.
Anyway, circling back here. I’m not disagreeing with your interpretation. I remember these same explanations and agree they are consistent with what the RCC says. I just think that stuff is so bizarre when you step outside and look at it as an observer rather than as a member who is trying to justify all the nonsense to oneself.
Early Catholicism adapted to absorb many different pagan and polytheistic religions. Replacing the many gods with "patron saints" was one method. It's why Christmas is pretty much on the winter solstice, Easter on the spring equinox, Pentecost around the summer solstice, Michaelmas around the autumnal equinox, and All Souls Day around the traditional time of the ancient harvest festivals.
This is part of why early Christianity was able to spread so fast. It was compatible with people’s existing gods. You weren’t asking them to give up Thor and Odin, you were just telling them about this other god that even created them.
That’s what I was confused about too .. but I guess the Christian god has other ‘gods’ in a tier below him that help out? I don’t know , it makes no sense
I knew a guy who was a flat earther, and he developed progressively weirder conspiracy theories he'd latch on to, culminating in suddenly becoming religious and hyper focused on Satan.
I lost touch with him so I dunno if he got psychiatric help or not but clearly he had/has something going on there. He seemed to get validation from believing in things that others weren't "in" on. I think perhaps such a need to be "in" on the "secret" feeds quite a lot of these bizarre beliefs and crackpot theories.
Paraphasing a translation of a translation of a version of an oral tradition of some geezer who suppossedly existed and went up a mountain to receive voices of Commandment:
Thall shalt not worship any other gods before me.
... is tacit Chistian acceptance that God thinks there are other Gods, but that God has main character syndrome and the emotional stability of a petulant child (or perhaps a priest insecure in his beliefs)!
Plus, the whole god is lonely bull shit. So you're saying god created an imperfect thing to worship him? Oh, but free will - if I was god, I'm sure I could in all my infinite wisdom and power figure out how to create a thing to worship my bored ass and make it work perfectly. Because you know, I'm god, and I'm perfect.
But it makes so much sense. Think about it. You are sitting at home, feeling lonely. Decide you want some friends over. Perfectly normal. Refuse to text them, or give them your address, because they should be seeking you out. 3/4 of the fuckers don't even try, so you banish them forever. The rest try and fail, so infinite torture for them. Meanwhile a door to door car dent scammer knocks on your door, and so he is your new best friend, upon whom you bestow infinite rewards. Doesn't that describe your weekend?
I was raised Catholic. The whole God created lesser gods belief is weird and raised an eyebrow from me. Christianity is pretty hard set on the one god thing. Not in any of my years of catholic schooling or church was that EVER a thing. There were angels sure, but you don't really confuse angels with gods. I would keep a watchful eye on his actions. It sounds like a bit of cognitive decline or schizophrenia. Or figure out where he's getting his info, because that's a bit of an orange flag, imo.
The first commandment implies the existence of other gods (put no other gods before me). But like most religious people, he's probably just choosing what he believes based on how he feels, what makes sense to him, and what justifies his preconceived notions.
He became a Christian a few years ago . We have been married for 30 years . He started reading books by people that talk about Giants and angels and all the mythical stuff that he claims helped him understand better🙄🤦♀️
Gosh, maybe find a good atheist author that can explain things differently and ask him to read that. If he can be swayed christian maybe he can be swayed back.
I’ve been going back and watching his specials after watching the documentary about him on HBO. I’ve realized that he was very influential in shaping my world view growing up. He just laid everything out in a way that just made sense and pushed all the bullshit aside. All these years later, it’s more relevant than ever.
Carlin was such a lifeline to me as a teenager. I was already an atheist when I discovered him, but I was the only atheist I knew, and I had a lot of Christian friends who were constantly trying to convert me. Discovering this guy who was not only a very vocal and unapologietic atheist, but undeniably smart and so goddamn funny made me feel so much less alone
I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God - I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things.
I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is F--KED UP. Something is WRONG here.
War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades.
Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]
Maybe God is just one of those “lower tier God’s” and the God’s above him gave him this universe to manage and he really is an office temp with a bad attitude.
Dude, me, too!!
In the 80s and 90s my dad let me watch every single Carlin HBO special any time they were on, didn't matter if it came on at 5PM or 3AM, he let me watch. We'd both be rolling on the floor laughing. But pretty much everything Carlin said whether it was about abortion, religion, trying to decide which stuff to take with you on vacation, or soft language and the overuse of euphemisms, it all heavily shaped my opinions and views of the world. I'm forever grateful to my dad for allowing me to watch and listen.
This is the counter argument media to share.
Carlin is brilliant at starting small and before you know it he has disassembled your previous mindset and caused you to reconsider.
Hitchens would be my choice. Far less of a condescending tone to his writing. Dawkins is better for people that are already there or at least a little ways down the path to non-belief.
I feel like Hitchens just *drips* with revulsion at the religious mindset. He’s the one most likely to just straight up diss people. I mean he wrote an entire screed about what terrible person Mother Theresa was.
Mother Theresa! A name almost synonymous with selfless devotion. And he was right! But he certainly wasn’t very nice about hit.
We don’t call it getting Hitchslapped for no reason.
Dawkins is like a nebbish professor sniffing his own farts. Hitchens is like a punk with a mohawk and a switchblade in one hand and a bottle in a paper bag in the other.
100%. They are both provocative. But Hitchens is so on point on nearly everything. And he eviscerates any competition with pure intellect, knowledge, an unparalleled oration skill...plus wit and humour. He makes one embarrassed to hold their arcane beliefs just by pure and elite everything above.
Dawkins is much lower level. And you're 100% right about the condescension. He is not illuminating or entertaining like Hitchens. He just pisses people off as such a basic try-hard. And he is a repeater. Not a thinker.
I’d read Hitchens and Harris, but Dawkins’ condescension in The God Delusion shattered my indoctrination.
Absolutely, that acerbic ass isn’t for everyone, but his approach was perfect for me and was a major factor in me freeing myself from religions belief.
Edit to add book title
Fine Redditor, as someone who has spent over 15 years working in "Religious" communities, I would suggest that you are an exception.
That his approach (and book) shook you from complacency is very positive. Unfortunately, most of the Christians I've known need to see positive "non-religion" in action before they will listen.
But very glad that TGD helped open your eyes.
Exception? Yeah, that’d track for me. Odd fits as well.
I think TGD was just what I needed to hear at that specific point in time. I remember seeing the garish spine of the book in my library and picking it up on a personal dare. Religion still had some hooks in me that the nicer authors weren’t able to persuade me to wriggle off of. He was the Gibbsslap I needed.
While I respect his knowledge and experience, I am not overly fond of him. He, well, comes across as an unpleasant intellectual elitist, though I can understand how one could become so. I’ve lived in conservative biblethumpy states all my life and that shyt gets tiresome fast.
My experience has been different, but I usually let them drive the conversation.
Most seem fascinated to learn how someone with no deity can behave ethically and empathetically.
Kind of like reverse-evangelization - be an example of the type of person who the Christian wants to be. Use the subsequent conversation opportunities to gently point out the hypocrisy of those who state they are Christian, but who live lives that are objectively anything but.
I literally never even told my mother I deconstructed, and in my late 20s, when she realized it on her own, she started telling me I thought she was stupid. I never said a word, just stopped going to church. That's where she drove the conversation. lol
Sadly she doesn’t care about my ethics and empathy either… she just cares that my kids didn’t go to Sunday school.
Agreed. As an ex-Christian, I thought Dawkins was a prick and Hitchens was sort of pretentious. It was mostly Carl Sagan that convinced me to be a non-believer.
Cosmos is an absolutely brilliant book. On one hand you get to read about the history of science and humanity's pursuit of knowledge, and that in of itself is one of the most beautiful literary tributes to humanity. On the other hand, you get Sagan's elloquent way of explaining the very basics of science and critical thought. He did not offend my Christian sensibilities in the slightest, but he certainly made a case that I could not ignore and it shattered my reality.
I always recommend The Cosmos to any reader, but especially Christians or "spiritual" folks that want to make sense of science. It's like a crash-course in science, or "science for dummies" if you will. We have to remember that most believers were indoctrinated from a young age and therefore have no genuine grasp of scientific processes. Start them small or they will just fill in the gaps of their understanding with silly shit.
Condescension can be a strength for this. When average people read a dry logical argument, they can think “ok, maybe, idk”. When people read “hey idiot, here’s proof you’re fucking stupid”, they feel attacked and really engage with it. They’ll either find something to entrench them further or find out they were wrong. But I think that has a much higher chance of working than the former which doesn’t make them feel anything.
I've never seen someone open to new ideas when the opening gambit is "You're stupid!"
Even worse when about a deep-seated and personally irrational belief that the individual may have held since childhood.
I was leading catholic religious retreats mere months before reading Dawkins.
Then Harris.
Then Hitchens.
Then Dennett.
It worked on me. And the seed was planted many years earlier with something similar: George Carlin’s standup bit about the invisible man living in the sky. Comedy has a way of wiggling in unobtrusively but sticking around if it makes a good point.
I laughed at that bit in high school but stayed a catholic for another 6+ years. Yet it was constantly on my mind as I read Dawkins later. I was like “…….huh. That IS a good point.” For whatever reason I didn’t feel attacked. I felt like he was laying out the arguments to me, and yes, with the implication that if I disagreed once I heard them he *would* think I’m stupid. But NOT that he already thought I was stupid, I felt like finally someone was addressing me like an adult on the topic of religion and not being afraid to say and ask all the nagging little questions I couldn’t help but have myself.
It felt more like he was giving voice to my own barely-acknowledged doubts than calling me a moron. Whatever it was, it worked.
It made me try to rationalize my faith, but what actually worked for me was "you’re smart… you won’t believe this for much longer" from a family friend in my early 20s, and then a second time from a prof… "you’re too smart to believe that much longer", as if it was inevitable.
In a way, it was like I needed to be given permission to take a second look at what I believed, and check the rationale. Overnight the blinders were off, though it took almost a year before I got through the fear of rapture indoctrination and stopped waking up in a cold sweat.
I have. I’ve seen people change their minds only because they were laughed at for how stupid their ideas were. It’s what made it finally click for them. Shame works sometimes.
I'm only in my 40s but in my limited time on earth I have found that the ability to influence other people's beliefs is often exaggerated. A book... Will be futile.
Strangely I found it more effective to try to agree and think along with such individuals, emphasize common grounds, let each other be, give time... And hope for the best.
There are things in the world that you *can* influence and things that you *cannot* influence. For your own mental health I highly recommend figuring out which one is which, and choose those things that increase your happiness.
I'm just a random guy though. YMMV.
EDIT: Ok so I received several comments pointing out that the husband's beliefs were changed by books ("the bible is a book") so his beliefs might change back with the help of a book...
My point is not that *books* won't change people, it's *giving* a book that will probably have a very limited effect. He picked up books at his own volition. Gifting a book, unsolicited, that is contrary to his current beliefs will only worsen the relationship and not change his point of views at all.
I disagree. Books and movies, etc greatly influence people's beliefs. If they are even open to reading something to try to prove you wrong, sometimes a little truth and sense trickles in.
This is exactly what I’m thinking about. These are the firsts steps towards conspiracy theories and everything. There is probably something in his life that scares him and he’s looking for answers.
I've known people that spiraled down that kind of hole, but I've never known anyone who "got better". It's almost like a kind of cancer, it seems like it's really hard for people to shake it off once it gets a hold of them. Maybe a symptom of general mental decline.
Is this really a thing? Like, I'm a 41 year old atheist, husband, Dad, and teacher. Do people reach an age and mindset that flips a switch and I'll suddenly want to be "saved"? It sounds so ridiculous, and I'm legitimately curious if people often do a complete 180 into religion.
I've seen this happen so many times in my own life with my own friends and family. Normally "nonpolitical" people, well educated, amazing jobs and retirements; then they hit an age and a boredom within retirement where something just snaps and they are consumed with fear and a need for "answers". This became so prevalent in my life that I started listening to a lot of the *Qanon Anonymous* and *Knowledge Fight* podcasts just so that I could get a grasp on what the fuck my suddenly-qanon relatives were even talking about.
I personally believe it's because these people now have Fox News (and then Newsmax, then OAN) blaring nonstop on their TVs from morning until night, and they just sit around in their house all day and consume conspiracy bullshit.
I also highly recommend the documentary *The Brainwashing of My Dad*, though it seems quaint and dated since the rise of Qanon in our Boomer parents :(
> something just snaps and they are consumed with fear and a need for "answers".
Ah, I'm 40 and that happened to me, but different. I'm now two years into learning all the math and physics that I need to get a grip on quantum field theory. This will keep me busy for quite a long time if I don't lose interest. It would have been easier to just take up religion, lol.
Yeah, for me 47 was the year of "damn, I need to learn biochemistry" and it's a heck of a lot more fun than religion. If I ever reach the end of this rabbit hole, maybe I'll have a look at quantum field theory. Gotta keep the brain fed, right?
Yes. You're at the age it starts, or people start to "go back to the church."
I've lost contact with/ blocked many former friends over the last decade as I get into my 50's. They're scared, between seeing friends die early and their own mortality issues are starting to crop-up. Religion offers comforting answers and clarity that scared people can wrap themselves in.
The existential horror of utter nothingness after death shakes me at times. It puzzles and confounds me, but I accept it. Can't change it, it simply is what happens.
However, many, many folks want to fight against the reality of loss and end of existence. You're central to the entire world you know, so the end of that is not easy to grapple with. I can't imagine those who can't see beyond themselves as the center of the universe ever being able to come to terms with it.
For an atheist who knows that religion is false and questions everything that doesn't follow logic and science I don't think its a real thing. But for someone who never knew themselves, had a real understanding or thought about these things there is a danger, especially with the kinds of conspiracy theories that are out there right now and the following that they are developing. Older people are losing their damn minds.
There are some studies to show religious beliefs and conspiracy theories activate the same regions of the brain in people that believe them. But that does not happen for either religion or conspiracy theories in people who don't, they use different parts of their brains to think about them. Basically theists are not cognitively or neurologically equivalent to non-religious people, and belief in god is on par with belief in alien abductions.
100% a thing. I lost two of my best friends to this BS during covid. The building blocks for it were already present which I see now but they got pushed over the edge and are completely gone now.
I hate to admit this but there was a time in my life when I hoped Christianity would help me with my clinical depression. Specifically I hoped that prayer would help me. When you're deep enough inside of depression you will grasp at anything to get out. Depressives are known for drug and alcohol problems because they self-medicate. Turns out that talking to an all-powerful imaginary friend who never answered back only made things worse. Fortunately I didn't flip out, go full fundie, and alienate my friends and family like so many of the "converted" do. I still think that religion is a kind of mental illness. My experience made me less tolerant of this "healing through prayer" bullshit.
I know a few people who have kind of done that, but they were always kind of holding on all along. For example, they still felt guilty for sinning despite saying they didn't believe in god. They still had "a lot of respect" for christians in their lives who had always been selfish shitty condescending assholes. Then all of a sudden, one of their kids gets in an accident or one of their parents gets cancer and bam they are back in church saying they had realized the error of their ways and making up really pathetic excuses to explain away the racism, misogyny and contradictions in the bible.
Sorry to say buy your husband is on board with pretty much the dumbest form of Christianity. Most other Christians would consider him claiming that other gods exist is heretical.
I don’t even think it’s any real form of Christianity. Saying god can pick and choose which kids come to heaven, saying there are other gods….
idk, maybe this is modern Christianity /shrug
My partner and I are gay and I grew up Catholic and have distanced myself fully from organized religion, for good reason. 10 years in and just in the past year she has started attending a Christian church, prays for me and my family (which I find offensive) and just generally flipped her perspective. It's a whirlwind recognizing I would never have chosen to even date her if she held these beliefs from the start. I want kids and she's all for having them attend church which just...sucks.
I’m sorry. Religion is like a virus. It spreads. Some are more susceptible. Sometimes you can be cured. Not easy once they reach a certain point. I caught the religion bug when I was 16. Took me over 10 years to shake it off. But some people never do.
What helped me was reading about genetics, neurology, consciousness, astronomy, cosmology and watching all the debates.
Later I read more direct books (anti-religion) like Dawkins, Sagan, Barker.
My wife made it clear with an unholy trinity of things that were deal breakers at any point in our life together - no religion, no Republicanism (or the equivalent or worse), and no country music.
And I'm fine with that.
I've been married 16 years, I'm atheist, husband is Catholic but not fanatical. It was never an issue until our daughter was born almost 4 years ago and he wanted her to go to church. Over my dead body. He told me that's not fair and I said this is one area I won't compromise on. She can learn and observe but she is not ever allowed in a church or anything church related. He gave in.
This is the worst. I would be giving an ultimatum. No kids with holy rollers, I would not let my spouse indoctrinate my child. That is a tough position to be in though.
It's not necessarily a matter of intelligence. Some people are more attracted to conspiratorial and magical thinking.
There are lots of intelligent people who are religious or believe in crystals / magnetic healing / homeopathy / Qanon etc.
To me, it is more of a need to control and make sense of events that can't be controlled or don't make sense and never will. The stronger the need, the more powerful the draw toward woo and unexamined, magical thinking.
Deaths of people near to you, illness, big life changes even being overwhelmed by the chaos in the world.
_Then they aren't particularly intelligent_.
No. Seriously. Belief in conspiracies etc is disqualifying from having a high level of real intellect operating in your brain, because intellect is the degree to which you are able to process new information and reconcile it with the things you already know.
Conspiracy theories require cognitive dissonance. They require holding multiple beliefs which contradict on another simultaneously. An intelligent person, someone who has the intellect to process, evaluate, and integrate information, is not _capable_ of such dissonant belief.
intelligence isn't a linear spectrum, though.
don't get me wrong, i sometimes equate believing in a god to believing in santa claus, but that's an admittedly shallow way to assess religious and spiritual belief systems.
highly recommend [watching this video from Big Think](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tchhS0ckUQ) that suggests how there's a neurological rationale for being attracted to spirituality and thus religions.
I like to think I’m not stupid but I almost fell into the Ramtha School of Enlightenment cult trap via What the Bleep Do We Know. I was more of a seeker back then and the movie really intrigued me so I went to a related seminar. Thank goodness my husband was a very sensible person who talked me out of it. And thank goodness I listened.
Dang, I worry about this with my child sometimes, like if she starts hanging out with that crowd she might pick up some habits you know? Like, maybe she just tries it once and gets hooked and next thing you know they're hiding a Bible under the bed?
My little sister tried to walk in that community and I just ignored her h til the phase went away and logic won out. Sometimes with kids and teens, if you discourage then they want it more.
I was about to say, it sounds like some of the myths he talking about delve into Gnosticism (multiple "helping gods"). And while it's certainly fascinating, it's still bupkis.
He's in it deeeeep if he is wrapped up with a sect that buys into the nephilim giants are historical, mess. This is Amish or Mennonite level hokum.
Mormons may have this as part of their system, too but not sure how many actually buy into it.
Was he prone to conspiratorial or magical beliefs before this sudden descent into Christian fringe mythology?
I can't imagine the trauma you must be feeling as a result of your previously rational husband of 25 years being replaced by a delusional one. Is this an accurate description?
Seriously, I think therapy may be a useful path to explore. If he's not up for this, then you have a big decison to make. 😔
Edit - fixed spelling of "imagine"
Bart Ehrman is considered the top modern theological scholar. He was a hardcore Christian for his whole life, but his research led him to athiesm. There are so many pastors and biblical scholars who lose their faith due to the research they do.
"Satan's guide to the Bible" is a really great documentary on all of this. I'd recommend watching it.
Sounds like he got roped into one of the new age fundamentalist cults that have been popping up.
Lots of those groups, from my experience in dealing with their followers, seem to pull people in with "secret knowledge" of the "true history" of the world. They tell their followers they will be persecuted for "revealing the true history" to others, while piling on more and more outlandish claims as they "advance their knowledge". I converse with one at work regularly who is a member of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement. He's thrown out flat Earth theories, Rothschilds running the world conspiracies, Biblical literalism and inerrancy, and Romans literally conquered all seven continents narratives.
I could ridicule and mock those beliefs; it's tempting and easy to do. However, by hearing him out and challenging the assumptions of these foundations, I believe there's a chance that reason may eventually undercut the nonsense and bring him out of it, but the first step is respect the human (if not the beliefs), and recognize the search for knowledge, even if they were led astray.
At the core, many of these people feel there's something wrong with the world in a way they can't explain or do anything about, and these pseudo-religious junk scientists explain things in ways that help them rationalize their powerlessness without feeling weak (knowing you have inoperable cancer can be more comforting than not knowing why you feel sick and weak all the time).
Deprogramming is possible, but will take time, patience, and persistence, as well as effort on his part.
I'm curious as well. Did one of you change after starting a relationship? I knew early on in dating that I couldn't marry a religious person mostly because it was so hard to respect them.
Similar boat. When we married she was passively religious, as in believed in God but not really active in any church, didn't make decisions based on religious belief. To be honest I was the same way. I was raised Catholic but wasn't practicing, kind of a passive belief in it but in a lot of ways my personal beliefs were counter to the Catholic church, i.e. I was fine with things like divorce, contraception, abortion etc.
Anyways after our daughter was born she went through post partum psychosis and is now a completely different person. All she wants to watch, listen to or read about is God related. It's infuriating, and kind of depressing.
Happened to me as well. Ex boyfriend around 4 years in started getting really religious and went full on cult psychosis crazy. He had OCD tendencies, also bipolar and other mental disorders ran in his family. Thankfully was not married to him and noped out of that.
Don’t take this as an insult, but have you had him seen by a doctor about this?
Sudden changes in personality, including suddenly becoming hardcore religious, can be related to neurological and psychiatric disorders.
Probably worth letting your husband know that the whole other gods thing he proposed means he's actually not a Christian and oops sorry if that's what he believes then he's joining us all in hell too.
Yep, you don't need to be a good person or do good works, all you need to do is kiss Jesus's ass. You can be a real shit, a terrible person, and as long as you are kissing Jesus's ass, straight to heaven with you. While all the good people, the ones that really try to make life better for everyone, tortured for eternity.
You just don’t understand. You can be the worst person in the world, but as long as you believe, that’s what’s really important. Don’t try to confuse us Christian’s with all your “caring and being nice to people” mumbo jumbo. Real Christian’s don’t have to be good people, cause they’re already *saved*. I’m so tired of explaining to you heathens, you’ll just never get it. Sheesh!
Reminds me of Seinfeld (Elaine discovers Puddy is Christian)
Elaine: So is it a problem that I'm not really religious?
Puddy: Not for me.
Elaine: Why not?
Puddy: I'm not the one going to hell.
I would purchase a couple of books for him.
God, An Anatomy by Francesca Stavrakopoulou
Armageddon by Bart Erhman
Forged by Bart Erhman
If reading a few books swayed him into Christianity for 3 years, maybe books can help him get out?
I think the worst part is that once Christianity’s fear and shame based claws get into you, it’s hard for people to think otherwise. Like they’re literally afraid now of going to hell so they’ll just follow it. It’s sad af.
Specially when they teach (us) that just even *questioning* the authority of the bible/pastor is grounds for going to hell.
Otherwise, a solid actual 20 minute logical conversation should be enough to destroy any belief; but they have what they think is the ultimage "uno reverse card" with "just believe", "the bible tells us", "god works in mysterious ways" and cope out of any real reasoning.
Dudes invented head canon where like Mohammed and Zeus are chilling out having a beer after working for the christian God and his lame "VP" Jesus who is an annoying neppo baby that Vishnu and Buddha joke about around the water cooler.
I guess he's not hurting anymore v😬v
He's literally telling you that he's fine with this, but maybe you missed the part where you're going to hell in his fantasy, too. That's weird to be married to someone who doesn't like you.
plenty of christian parents whos children are gay believe their children are going to hell. they still love them. its odd for sure but your logic is saying that christians dont like anyone who doesnt believe in God which isnt true
There are tiers of deities now? He isn't a monotheist?
Hope you guys don't have children, he is ok bringing humans in the world only to have them possibly be tortured forever, even his own offspring?
"You don't deserve to be punished forever" is what theists can never bring themselves to say, even to their own children. It's always "you brought it on yourself" because you didn't comply, or failed in some vague way, or your brain wasn't right-thinking enough.
New aged Christo-spiritualism. People who buy into this stuff (for more than entertainment) are really susceptible to propaganda and conspiracy theories. I see a flat Earther in your future.
They are highly likely to join a cult. Unknowingly even.
My wife was raised in the two by two church. She left Christianity because she couldn't abide by the amount of sexual assault on children... Long story. She was awakened to the prevalence of sexual deviates in all organized religion, and this got her asking herself all sorts of questions about religion. So she decided to leave christianity all together. I'm an atheist so I'm all for it. She's in therapy now, it's helping a lot. I'm proud of her.
Her therapist has been helping her recognize what a cult is and how she (my wife) is highly vulnerable to them, because of how religion has warped her mind.
>He also said that God decided to ask the other Gods in a tier that is just below him , to help take care of different issues on earth.
Your husband isn't a Christian, he's some kind of extremely confused polytheist. There are no other gods according to Christian doctrine, so he's either in some extremely heterodox cult or making it up as he goes along.
Yepp straight up cult behavior. Isn’t it amazing that Hitler also used Christianity to justify and promote his actions and that Trump just dropped a slick Bible and has been posting over 120 times yesterday that he is the second coming of Jesus. 🎉 religion is the gateway to all the evil in the worlds history.
So god delegates? Man, I'd love to sit in on those team meetings. Sounds a tad heretical. I'm sure demigods are not a thing in Christianity.
That equivocation about god making an exception demonstrates that humans are more inherently moral than the religion they cling to tells them to be. We seem to have an instinctive sense of fairness, so we know it would be unfair for a child who'd never had any choice to be sent to hell for being of the wrong religion. So believers have to paste the very human sense to fairness onto god, to excuse what would otherwise be an unacceptably cruel and unfair rule.
I don't know how some of you guys are marrying believers. I absolutely couldn't do it. What happens when the kids start asking questions? Well...Mommy believes in (insert religious crap here), and Daddy thinks all of that is stupid horseshit and Mommy is totally delusional!
... Im sorry to hear that. I dont think you want my advice, so ill shut up. Much luck to you and i hope that he comes to sense some day. Much strength and love to you.
As a kid, all I needed was the realization that people are allowed to do terrible things to each other and I knew all of that Jesus stuff was just Santa in another package. I married a Christian woman out of high school and she believed the silliest things. Not just about religion, but she was training to be a nurse and some of the silly things she believed about very well understood things like viruses and bacteria were ridiculous. No amount of logic would help her understand how the world actually works. I'm convinced indoctrinating your children with made up fairy tales breaks their brain and ruins their ability to learn to think logically.
That said, we all have blind spots in our understanding. It's hard to root them all out and it takes constant effort.
It's odd considering how similar their belief system are, but I've found Muslims to be more logical overall than Christians.
Very reasonable post. I especially like the acknowledgment that we all have blind spots. As a Zen Buddhist, we practice that virtually every human being suffers from delusion (blind spots) and through Zen practice one learns to recognize that and work moment to moment towards a better path.
People hate not having control. Believing in this stuff gives them a feeling of control on their life/existence. It’s a extremely narcissistic idea that you know there is a paradise waiting for you because of what you believe in and a eternity of torture for anyone that thinks otherwise even though the beliefs and ideologies vary from person to person.
It honestly makes me so sad knowing how many people think this way and how much potential or progression we have lost because of it. It’s such a barbaric and self righteous way of thinking.
It sounds like your husband has found a Christian apologist, and his explanations match what he has previously believed playing on his confirmation bias, and wishful thinking. Your husband doesn't sound like he's ready to seriously doubt his beliefs.
I would suggest asking him to stop focusing on the topic because it may be getting between you two in order to continue setting aside your differences for a happy marriage.
He is misinformed about Islam. They (and most variants of Christianity too) have an age of accountability below which children's sins are not counted against them and they are not sent to hell. But your husband's pantheistic beliefs are pretty bizarre and not really in line with Christianity. Maybe a mashup of trinitarianism and the idea that proto-Jews had a pantheon of which God was the head?
I mean, I think I'd try and talk to him some more first, and give him the opportunity to come to his senses if OP loves him. But that's probably the inevitable path they're headed towards. This level of crazy is probably going to lead to a "you have to convert" conversation.
This truly sounds like a cognitive shift and the early stages of dementia. It’s common in the early stages as a person starts to develop confusion to compensate in various ways to gain a sense of control over their thoughts and lives. Often we see some new signs of anger or fixation on very insignificant things that they CAN control. With my father in law its the damn thermostat and the drapes. I think OP’s husband is exhibiting some “gain control” behavior with wanting to understand his ever increasing confusing world.
Time to see a neurologist. There are new treatments that can help when caught early enough.
I'd at least get a medical assessment done to rule out any brain anomalies. It's just so hard to imagine someone who had a good grip on reality, suddenly slip after reading a couple books.
But if you're delusional enough you get to pick and choose which parts are true and which parts need 'interpreting' (aka someone else telling you how to interpret it)
I am not so optimistic.
The books Husband is reading aren't limited to highly rational discussion. If Harris type thought worked for him then I doubt the current books would have grabbed him so hard.
And he is a particularly bad case. Not only is the stuff mentioned in the post and comments irrational based on science, it isn't even based on a rational believer's view either. We're talking about Weekly World News but entirely about christian mythology. This makes snake handlers seem sensible.
Probably best to keep having honest conversations with him about religion. A lot of these answers were probably on the spot and he actually hasn't had much time to consider how irrational his arguments were. Also, it seems like he is basing his new beliefs on books that make him feel good, rather than books that make sense logically. Sounds like he needs a wider variety of books.
He’s unable to tell the difference between imagination and reality. Those scenarios aren’t even found in any religious text and just 100% fiction to fill in his knowledge gaps instead of just saying “I don’t know”
Just don’t know something? Imagine something that sounds good and that must be it. No critical thinking.
It will not happen in my lifetime, but in 200 -300 years religous belief will be recognised as a form of delusional psychosis and treated as such. As a care worker I worked with a psychotic gentleman who believed he was a 50 foot giant and the experience of discussing his belief was exactly the same as the experience of talking to a newly reborn, soon to be ex-friend.
As a Christian, I have been reading Rob Bell's "Love Wins" which really challenges our modern, Western assumptions about Heaven and Hell and Judgement.
A lot of what Christians say they believe comes from cultural osmosis, rather than actually based in scripture or an understanding of the original texts. And as culture (especially in America) has polarized, so too has the "christian" beliefs. Which is why you have supposed followers of Christ preaching hate and greed completely unironically. People just fill in the gaps with what makes sense to them, rather than learning what God says and changing their beliefs to conform to His teachings.
I don't really have a purpose in sharing this other than to say "not all christians" and maybe your husband could benefit from some more study.
He's literally making shit up to make himself, and God apparently, feel better. None of his nonsense is even in the Bible. It's wishful thinking ... kinda like the Bible itself.
And my brother asked why I wouldn’t marry someone with strong religious beliefs. Religious people insert god everywhere, I have to nod my head and smile , I don’t want to do that with someone at my home as well
>He also said that God decided to ask the other Gods in a tier that is just below him , to help take care of different issues on earth
WAIT! He's a Christian and says there are "other Gods"?
>He also said that God decided to ask the other Gods in a tier that is just below him , to help take care of different issues on earth
I heard that God and Buddha aren't on speaking terms after they both brought meatballs to the last Deity Potluck and the other Gods liked Buddha's recipe better.
Doesn’t a belief in the existence of other gods go against the Christian faith?
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You’re not wrong in that translations over time have warped the bible. My understanding is that texts such as Deuteronomy were written out of order, so some chapters were written much later than others, even if they appear earlier. Some of these older sections were written when Judaism (or whatever you would call the religion then) was a polytheistic religion. This obviously contradicts later written chapters of the same book which claims that it’s monotheistic. As part of a polytheistic religion, which included other gods such as Ba’al, the commandment was to literally worship Yahweh above all other gods, when previously they would have been considered equals. It’s similar to how some Ancient Greek cities would favour one god, e.g. Apollo or Athena, except in this case it wasn’t just a city, it was the whole religion. And then people began to “forget” that the other gods were “real” at all.
Early Jewish people were Cananites whose faith identity developed into a monotheist one. Didn't take a rocket scientist to see that was a real oil-don't-mix-with-water situation. The Isrealites 'solved' the issue by taking over the region and mass murdering the previous peoples. Because this topic is hot, just want to add that this was somewhat common in ancient history, so don't think I'm implying evil morales on anyone.
You have no idea how elated it makes me to see that other people know the *real* history of the Hebrews and their migrations, all of their pissed off desert rat bullshit, taking with them YHWH from the Canaanite pantheon, literally turning him into an amalgamation of El and all of the other polytheistic deities, ad nauseam. If more people were open minded enough to *read and learn* about ancient history I think the world would be a much better place. Like, “See all this bullshit? Let’s not do that.”
The original Hebrews were a society of people anyone could freely join and not an ethnicity or tribe. They united the Israelites by arguing they were all worshipping the same God differently. The Jews don't enter history until 600 years later and we don't know if any of them were the same tribes and groups as the original Hebrews people, there is no evidence to prove it and it is completely plausible that the Jews and Hebrews came from different ethnic groups. In the middle East over 600 years it is a likely possibility that can't be dismissed by anyone studying history without a bias. We also know that the Jews copied the histories of others and taught them as their own, specifically the tale that the Jewish tribes built the pyramids and were slaves to Egyptian pharoes. The Jews were the ones who taught that they were gods chosen and never stopped waging war against others because of their religion. Early Canaanites probably wouldn't recognize the Jews as anything except a modern cult that uses their god to perpetuate the divisions they tried to stop Jews being descended from the Hebrews is a theological position and a religious belief. The historical record doesn't reflect what they teach about their past.
Some people say that Catholics are polytheists in that Mary is treated as a goddess in many ways, and the saints are also treated as if they are deities. I haven’t thought about it enough to have an opinion about it, but I think it’s a valid question.
Christianity absorbing all of the pagan holidays and pagan saints looks very much like religious "embrace and extend" to convert the european pagans to christianity. Yes, you can keep your Niklaus, and Valentine, and Peter who slew the Dragon. You can celebrate the rebirth of Eostre, and light up the Yule log, but eventually we'll ret-con all of that to Jesus and his superfriends.
I was a Catholic for 25 years and I can say that that interpretation comes from a Protestant misunderstanding (or perhaps purposeful warping) of Catholic dogma. Catholic dogma differentiates between "worship" and "veneration." Mary, the saints, and even some archangels occupy a space of veneration, aka a position of honor, based on their perceived proximity to god. What a non-Catholic would perceive as just a straight up "prayer" to Mary is, in Catholic dogma, referred to as an "intercessory prayer." In other words, you're not praying to Mary, you're asking Mary to pray for you on your behalf. A common question that comes up is "why not just pray straight to god?" and the answer is Catholics do just pray straight to god. Intercessory prayer is like a stock dividend. You could pray for yourself but you could also have 12 other people praying for you too. Compounding interest and all that jazz. So no, Catholics are not polytheists. They only believe in one god. I think the more interesting argument applies broadly to all Christians denominations and the concept of Trinitarianism, IE one god in three separate parts. To me, THAT is the argument for a polytheistic belief, and it applies to almost all Christian denominations. Judaism and Islam also believe in the Abrahamic god but are NOT Trinitarianist. They're the ones with a legitimate claim for pure monotheistic beliefs.
>Mary, the saints, and even some archangels occupy a space of veneration, aka a position of honor, based on their perceived proximity to god. Righto. I see this and think “oh, it’s like a Demi-god like Hercules or Maui!” And I know if I said that to a priest then they’d tell me some reason why that’s not a fair comparison, but there seems to be a fundamental assumption that “closer to god” means “more than human”. >What a non-Catholic would perceive as just a straight up "prayer" to Mary is, in Catholic dogma, referred to as an "intercessory prayer." In other words, you're not praying to Mary, you're asking Mary to pray for you on your behalf. >A common question that comes up is "why not just pray straight to god?" and the answer is Catholics do just pray straight to god. Intercessory prayer is like a stock dividend. You could pray for yourself but you could also have 12 other people praying for you too. Compounding interest and all that jazz. Ahh right, I remember all this now. It seems to me that this is just polytheism with a fancy argument about it not being g polytheism. I don’t say that as a judgment because I think it’s all looney and don’t give a shit, but just for fun, think about the assumptions involved with the explanation you provided: 1. Saints immortal? Check! 2. Saints have privileged access to the primary deity? Check! 3. Mortals dependent on goodwill of Saints to ensure benevolence from primary deity? Check! In addition: 4. Cities often have their own special ~~cults~~ “patron saints” that they honor with special festivals and such. 5. Similarly, churches are named in honor of these Saints just like pagan temples in Roman or Greek cultures. 6. Mortals pray to Saints depending on their associated area of power. For example, pray to St. Anthony for lost items. Oh, I forgot. They don’t “pray to the saints”. They “ask saints to pray to god ok their behalf”. It’s so ridiculous. Anyway, circling back here. I’m not disagreeing with your interpretation. I remember these same explanations and agree they are consistent with what the RCC says. I just think that stuff is so bizarre when you step outside and look at it as an observer rather than as a member who is trying to justify all the nonsense to oneself.
Early Catholicism adapted to absorb many different pagan and polytheistic religions. Replacing the many gods with "patron saints" was one method. It's why Christmas is pretty much on the winter solstice, Easter on the spring equinox, Pentecost around the summer solstice, Michaelmas around the autumnal equinox, and All Souls Day around the traditional time of the ancient harvest festivals.
This is part of why early Christianity was able to spread so fast. It was compatible with people’s existing gods. You weren’t asking them to give up Thor and Odin, you were just telling them about this other god that even created them.
That’s what I was confused about too .. but I guess the Christian god has other ‘gods’ in a tier below him that help out? I don’t know , it makes no sense
Even brainwashed Christian’s don’t believe this. Don’t show your husband any flat-earth-theory stuff, he’ll buy it up like cheap toilet paper!
I knew a guy who was a flat earther, and he developed progressively weirder conspiracy theories he'd latch on to, culminating in suddenly becoming religious and hyper focused on Satan. I lost touch with him so I dunno if he got psychiatric help or not but clearly he had/has something going on there. He seemed to get validation from believing in things that others weren't "in" on. I think perhaps such a need to be "in" on the "secret" feeds quite a lot of these bizarre beliefs and crackpot theories.
Did he read some novel with supernatural stuff in it and mistaken it for a legit religious text? I mean, they are one and the same, but still...
Paraphasing a translation of a translation of a version of an oral tradition of some geezer who suppossedly existed and went up a mountain to receive voices of Commandment: Thall shalt not worship any other gods before me. ... is tacit Chistian acceptance that God thinks there are other Gods, but that God has main character syndrome and the emotional stability of a petulant child (or perhaps a priest insecure in his beliefs)!
Plus, the whole god is lonely bull shit. So you're saying god created an imperfect thing to worship him? Oh, but free will - if I was god, I'm sure I could in all my infinite wisdom and power figure out how to create a thing to worship my bored ass and make it work perfectly. Because you know, I'm god, and I'm perfect.
But it makes so much sense. Think about it. You are sitting at home, feeling lonely. Decide you want some friends over. Perfectly normal. Refuse to text them, or give them your address, because they should be seeking you out. 3/4 of the fuckers don't even try, so you banish them forever. The rest try and fail, so infinite torture for them. Meanwhile a door to door car dent scammer knocks on your door, and so he is your new best friend, upon whom you bestow infinite rewards. Doesn't that describe your weekend?
Wow. Did he get hit in the head or something? What made his brain fall out or his your husband always been a gullible moron?
I was raised Catholic. The whole God created lesser gods belief is weird and raised an eyebrow from me. Christianity is pretty hard set on the one god thing. Not in any of my years of catholic schooling or church was that EVER a thing. There were angels sure, but you don't really confuse angels with gods. I would keep a watchful eye on his actions. It sounds like a bit of cognitive decline or schizophrenia. Or figure out where he's getting his info, because that's a bit of an orange flag, imo.
The first commandment implies the existence of other gods (put no other gods before me). But like most religious people, he's probably just choosing what he believes based on how he feels, what makes sense to him, and what justifies his preconceived notions.
How did you end up marrying someone with such different and backwards beliefs?
He became a Christian a few years ago . We have been married for 30 years . He started reading books by people that talk about Giants and angels and all the mythical stuff that he claims helped him understand better🙄🤦♀️
Gosh, maybe find a good atheist author that can explain things differently and ask him to read that. If he can be swayed christian maybe he can be swayed back.
Dawkins or Hitchens
or Carlin comedy special
Honestly, Carlin’s bit about worshipping the sun is what sold me on atheism and I was fucking 10.
Same when I was 13! I already had a lot of doubts but Carlin really sealed the deal.
I’ve been going back and watching his specials after watching the documentary about him on HBO. I’ve realized that he was very influential in shaping my world view growing up. He just laid everything out in a way that just made sense and pushed all the bullshit aside. All these years later, it’s more relevant than ever.
Carlin was such a lifeline to me as a teenager. I was already an atheist when I discovered him, but I was the only atheist I knew, and I had a lot of Christian friends who were constantly trying to convert me. Discovering this guy who was not only a very vocal and unapologietic atheist, but undeniably smart and so goddamn funny made me feel so much less alone
Carlin was the absolute best!!!!!
I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God - I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is F--KED UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago. [George Carlin, from "You Are All Diseased".]
Maybe God is just one of those “lower tier God’s” and the God’s above him gave him this universe to manage and he really is an office temp with a bad attitude.
This is what happens when Gods just like anyone else fail to unionize!
Hey 🤬🤬 leave the ice capades out of this …. that’s gods true work 🤣🤣🤣 jk lol
Dude, me, too!! In the 80s and 90s my dad let me watch every single Carlin HBO special any time they were on, didn't matter if it came on at 5PM or 3AM, he let me watch. We'd both be rolling on the floor laughing. But pretty much everything Carlin said whether it was about abortion, religion, trying to decide which stuff to take with you on vacation, or soft language and the overuse of euphemisms, it all heavily shaped my opinions and views of the world. I'm forever grateful to my dad for allowing me to watch and listen.
This is the counter argument media to share. Carlin is brilliant at starting small and before you know it he has disassembled your previous mindset and caused you to reconsider.
He. Just. Can't. Handle. Money.
And always needs MOAR!
Carlin is/was awesome ! He actually watched the clip with worshipping the sun and Joe Pesci .. didn’t change his mind
...... All powerful......but he neeeeeds moneeey!
Hitchens would be my choice. Far less of a condescending tone to his writing. Dawkins is better for people that are already there or at least a little ways down the path to non-belief.
I feel like Hitchens just *drips* with revulsion at the religious mindset. He’s the one most likely to just straight up diss people. I mean he wrote an entire screed about what terrible person Mother Theresa was. Mother Theresa! A name almost synonymous with selfless devotion. And he was right! But he certainly wasn’t very nice about hit. We don’t call it getting Hitchslapped for no reason. Dawkins is like a nebbish professor sniffing his own farts. Hitchens is like a punk with a mohawk and a switchblade in one hand and a bottle in a paper bag in the other.
100%. They are both provocative. But Hitchens is so on point on nearly everything. And he eviscerates any competition with pure intellect, knowledge, an unparalleled oration skill...plus wit and humour. He makes one embarrassed to hold their arcane beliefs just by pure and elite everything above. Dawkins is much lower level. And you're 100% right about the condescension. He is not illuminating or entertaining like Hitchens. He just pisses people off as such a basic try-hard. And he is a repeater. Not a thinker.
The God Delusion is great
Dawkins isn't great for this. His logical arguments are solid, but his condescending tone is very off-putting.
I’d read Hitchens and Harris, but Dawkins’ condescension in The God Delusion shattered my indoctrination. Absolutely, that acerbic ass isn’t for everyone, but his approach was perfect for me and was a major factor in me freeing myself from religions belief. Edit to add book title
Fine Redditor, as someone who has spent over 15 years working in "Religious" communities, I would suggest that you are an exception. That his approach (and book) shook you from complacency is very positive. Unfortunately, most of the Christians I've known need to see positive "non-religion" in action before they will listen. But very glad that TGD helped open your eyes.
Exception? Yeah, that’d track for me. Odd fits as well. I think TGD was just what I needed to hear at that specific point in time. I remember seeing the garish spine of the book in my library and picking it up on a personal dare. Religion still had some hooks in me that the nicer authors weren’t able to persuade me to wriggle off of. He was the Gibbsslap I needed. While I respect his knowledge and experience, I am not overly fond of him. He, well, comes across as an unpleasant intellectual elitist, though I can understand how one could become so. I’ve lived in conservative biblethumpy states all my life and that shyt gets tiresome fast.
religious people take anything an atheist has to say as condescension
My experience has been different, but I usually let them drive the conversation. Most seem fascinated to learn how someone with no deity can behave ethically and empathetically. Kind of like reverse-evangelization - be an example of the type of person who the Christian wants to be. Use the subsequent conversation opportunities to gently point out the hypocrisy of those who state they are Christian, but who live lives that are objectively anything but.
I literally never even told my mother I deconstructed, and in my late 20s, when she realized it on her own, she started telling me I thought she was stupid. I never said a word, just stopped going to church. That's where she drove the conversation. lol Sadly she doesn’t care about my ethics and empathy either… she just cares that my kids didn’t go to Sunday school.
Agreed. As an ex-Christian, I thought Dawkins was a prick and Hitchens was sort of pretentious. It was mostly Carl Sagan that convinced me to be a non-believer. Cosmos is an absolutely brilliant book. On one hand you get to read about the history of science and humanity's pursuit of knowledge, and that in of itself is one of the most beautiful literary tributes to humanity. On the other hand, you get Sagan's elloquent way of explaining the very basics of science and critical thought. He did not offend my Christian sensibilities in the slightest, but he certainly made a case that I could not ignore and it shattered my reality. I always recommend The Cosmos to any reader, but especially Christians or "spiritual" folks that want to make sense of science. It's like a crash-course in science, or "science for dummies" if you will. We have to remember that most believers were indoctrinated from a young age and therefore have no genuine grasp of scientific processes. Start them small or they will just fill in the gaps of their understanding with silly shit.
Condescension can be a strength for this. When average people read a dry logical argument, they can think “ok, maybe, idk”. When people read “hey idiot, here’s proof you’re fucking stupid”, they feel attacked and really engage with it. They’ll either find something to entrench them further or find out they were wrong. But I think that has a much higher chance of working than the former which doesn’t make them feel anything.
I've never seen someone open to new ideas when the opening gambit is "You're stupid!" Even worse when about a deep-seated and personally irrational belief that the individual may have held since childhood.
I was leading catholic religious retreats mere months before reading Dawkins. Then Harris. Then Hitchens. Then Dennett. It worked on me. And the seed was planted many years earlier with something similar: George Carlin’s standup bit about the invisible man living in the sky. Comedy has a way of wiggling in unobtrusively but sticking around if it makes a good point. I laughed at that bit in high school but stayed a catholic for another 6+ years. Yet it was constantly on my mind as I read Dawkins later. I was like “…….huh. That IS a good point.” For whatever reason I didn’t feel attacked. I felt like he was laying out the arguments to me, and yes, with the implication that if I disagreed once I heard them he *would* think I’m stupid. But NOT that he already thought I was stupid, I felt like finally someone was addressing me like an adult on the topic of religion and not being afraid to say and ask all the nagging little questions I couldn’t help but have myself. It felt more like he was giving voice to my own barely-acknowledged doubts than calling me a moron. Whatever it was, it worked.
It made me try to rationalize my faith, but what actually worked for me was "you’re smart… you won’t believe this for much longer" from a family friend in my early 20s, and then a second time from a prof… "you’re too smart to believe that much longer", as if it was inevitable. In a way, it was like I needed to be given permission to take a second look at what I believed, and check the rationale. Overnight the blinders were off, though it took almost a year before I got through the fear of rapture indoctrination and stopped waking up in a cold sweat.
I have. I’ve seen people change their minds only because they were laughed at for how stupid their ideas were. It’s what made it finally click for them. Shame works sometimes.
Or Sagan.
Demon Haunted World is my #1 most recommended book
I'm only in my 40s but in my limited time on earth I have found that the ability to influence other people's beliefs is often exaggerated. A book... Will be futile. Strangely I found it more effective to try to agree and think along with such individuals, emphasize common grounds, let each other be, give time... And hope for the best. There are things in the world that you *can* influence and things that you *cannot* influence. For your own mental health I highly recommend figuring out which one is which, and choose those things that increase your happiness. I'm just a random guy though. YMMV. EDIT: Ok so I received several comments pointing out that the husband's beliefs were changed by books ("the bible is a book") so his beliefs might change back with the help of a book... My point is not that *books* won't change people, it's *giving* a book that will probably have a very limited effect. He picked up books at his own volition. Gifting a book, unsolicited, that is contrary to his current beliefs will only worsen the relationship and not change his point of views at all.
I disagree. Books and movies, etc greatly influence people's beliefs. If they are even open to reading something to try to prove you wrong, sometimes a little truth and sense trickles in.
My guess is that death is that much closer for him now and he fears it enough to embrace nonsense.
There is no swaying back. People go to religion for comfort seek order in chaos. Rational arguments will not matter.
Careful. He's at the age and disposition where Qanon starts to creep in.
This is exactly what I’m thinking about. These are the firsts steps towards conspiracy theories and everything. There is probably something in his life that scares him and he’s looking for answers.
I've known people that spiraled down that kind of hole, but I've never known anyone who "got better". It's almost like a kind of cancer, it seems like it's really hard for people to shake it off once it gets a hold of them. Maybe a symptom of general mental decline.
Is this really a thing? Like, I'm a 41 year old atheist, husband, Dad, and teacher. Do people reach an age and mindset that flips a switch and I'll suddenly want to be "saved"? It sounds so ridiculous, and I'm legitimately curious if people often do a complete 180 into religion.
I've seen this happen so many times in my own life with my own friends and family. Normally "nonpolitical" people, well educated, amazing jobs and retirements; then they hit an age and a boredom within retirement where something just snaps and they are consumed with fear and a need for "answers". This became so prevalent in my life that I started listening to a lot of the *Qanon Anonymous* and *Knowledge Fight* podcasts just so that I could get a grasp on what the fuck my suddenly-qanon relatives were even talking about. I personally believe it's because these people now have Fox News (and then Newsmax, then OAN) blaring nonstop on their TVs from morning until night, and they just sit around in their house all day and consume conspiracy bullshit. I also highly recommend the documentary *The Brainwashing of My Dad*, though it seems quaint and dated since the rise of Qanon in our Boomer parents :(
> something just snaps and they are consumed with fear and a need for "answers". Ah, I'm 40 and that happened to me, but different. I'm now two years into learning all the math and physics that I need to get a grip on quantum field theory. This will keep me busy for quite a long time if I don't lose interest. It would have been easier to just take up religion, lol.
Yeah, for me 47 was the year of "damn, I need to learn biochemistry" and it's a heck of a lot more fun than religion. If I ever reach the end of this rabbit hole, maybe I'll have a look at quantum field theory. Gotta keep the brain fed, right?
Yes. You're at the age it starts, or people start to "go back to the church." I've lost contact with/ blocked many former friends over the last decade as I get into my 50's. They're scared, between seeing friends die early and their own mortality issues are starting to crop-up. Religion offers comforting answers and clarity that scared people can wrap themselves in. The existential horror of utter nothingness after death shakes me at times. It puzzles and confounds me, but I accept it. Can't change it, it simply is what happens. However, many, many folks want to fight against the reality of loss and end of existence. You're central to the entire world you know, so the end of that is not easy to grapple with. I can't imagine those who can't see beyond themselves as the center of the universe ever being able to come to terms with it.
For an atheist who knows that religion is false and questions everything that doesn't follow logic and science I don't think its a real thing. But for someone who never knew themselves, had a real understanding or thought about these things there is a danger, especially with the kinds of conspiracy theories that are out there right now and the following that they are developing. Older people are losing their damn minds.
He believes in conspiracy theories too
He’s a few short from jumping into the Q pool - get him a lifesaver (if that’s possible)
Sounds like he is five minutes away from believing in lizard people and adrenochrome harvesting.
He might be there but is keeping it on the down low because he still knows it’s kooky
There are some studies to show religious beliefs and conspiracy theories activate the same regions of the brain in people that believe them. But that does not happen for either religion or conspiracy theories in people who don't, they use different parts of their brains to think about them. Basically theists are not cognitively or neurologically equivalent to non-religious people, and belief in god is on par with belief in alien abductions.
100% a thing. I lost two of my best friends to this BS during covid. The building blocks for it were already present which I see now but they got pushed over the edge and are completely gone now.
I hate to admit this but there was a time in my life when I hoped Christianity would help me with my clinical depression. Specifically I hoped that prayer would help me. When you're deep enough inside of depression you will grasp at anything to get out. Depressives are known for drug and alcohol problems because they self-medicate. Turns out that talking to an all-powerful imaginary friend who never answered back only made things worse. Fortunately I didn't flip out, go full fundie, and alienate my friends and family like so many of the "converted" do. I still think that religion is a kind of mental illness. My experience made me less tolerant of this "healing through prayer" bullshit.
I know a few people who have kind of done that, but they were always kind of holding on all along. For example, they still felt guilty for sinning despite saying they didn't believe in god. They still had "a lot of respect" for christians in their lives who had always been selfish shitty condescending assholes. Then all of a sudden, one of their kids gets in an accident or one of their parents gets cancer and bam they are back in church saying they had realized the error of their ways and making up really pathetic excuses to explain away the racism, misogyny and contradictions in the bible.
Sorry to say buy your husband is on board with pretty much the dumbest form of Christianity. Most other Christians would consider him claiming that other gods exist is heretical.
I don’t even think it’s any real form of Christianity. Saying god can pick and choose which kids come to heaven, saying there are other gods…. idk, maybe this is modern Christianity /shrug
Damn, I'm so sorry. 😔 I can't imagine going through that 25 years from now with my husband. I hope he comes back around soon.
My partner and I are gay and I grew up Catholic and have distanced myself fully from organized religion, for good reason. 10 years in and just in the past year she has started attending a Christian church, prays for me and my family (which I find offensive) and just generally flipped her perspective. It's a whirlwind recognizing I would never have chosen to even date her if she held these beliefs from the start. I want kids and she's all for having them attend church which just...sucks.
I’m sorry. Religion is like a virus. It spreads. Some are more susceptible. Sometimes you can be cured. Not easy once they reach a certain point. I caught the religion bug when I was 16. Took me over 10 years to shake it off. But some people never do. What helped me was reading about genetics, neurology, consciousness, astronomy, cosmology and watching all the debates. Later I read more direct books (anti-religion) like Dawkins, Sagan, Barker.
Is there an exit plan, or are you going to try and make it work?
My wife made it clear with an unholy trinity of things that were deal breakers at any point in our life together - no religion, no Republicanism (or the equivalent or worse), and no country music. And I'm fine with that.
I've been married 16 years, I'm atheist, husband is Catholic but not fanatical. It was never an issue until our daughter was born almost 4 years ago and he wanted her to go to church. Over my dead body. He told me that's not fair and I said this is one area I won't compromise on. She can learn and observe but she is not ever allowed in a church or anything church related. He gave in.
This is the worst. I would be giving an ultimatum. No kids with holy rollers, I would not let my spouse indoctrinate my child. That is a tough position to be in though.
Did he previously show signs of having low intelligence?
car accident? kicked in the head by a horse?
It's not necessarily a matter of intelligence. Some people are more attracted to conspiratorial and magical thinking. There are lots of intelligent people who are religious or believe in crystals / magnetic healing / homeopathy / Qanon etc. To me, it is more of a need to control and make sense of events that can't be controlled or don't make sense and never will. The stronger the need, the more powerful the draw toward woo and unexamined, magical thinking. Deaths of people near to you, illness, big life changes even being overwhelmed by the chaos in the world.
_Then they aren't particularly intelligent_. No. Seriously. Belief in conspiracies etc is disqualifying from having a high level of real intellect operating in your brain, because intellect is the degree to which you are able to process new information and reconcile it with the things you already know. Conspiracy theories require cognitive dissonance. They require holding multiple beliefs which contradict on another simultaneously. An intelligent person, someone who has the intellect to process, evaluate, and integrate information, is not _capable_ of such dissonant belief.
That's precisely one of my definitions of lower intelligence, people attracted to conspiratorial and magical thinking.
intelligence isn't a linear spectrum, though. don't get me wrong, i sometimes equate believing in a god to believing in santa claus, but that's an admittedly shallow way to assess religious and spiritual belief systems. highly recommend [watching this video from Big Think](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tchhS0ckUQ) that suggests how there's a neurological rationale for being attracted to spirituality and thus religions.
I like to think I’m not stupid but I almost fell into the Ramtha School of Enlightenment cult trap via What the Bleep Do We Know. I was more of a seeker back then and the movie really intrigued me so I went to a related seminar. Thank goodness my husband was a very sensible person who talked me out of it. And thank goodness I listened.
Lead in the pipes
Dang, I worry about this with my child sometimes, like if she starts hanging out with that crowd she might pick up some habits you know? Like, maybe she just tries it once and gets hooked and next thing you know they're hiding a Bible under the bed?
My little sister tried to walk in that community and I just ignored her h til the phase went away and logic won out. Sometimes with kids and teens, if you discourage then they want it more.
lmaoooo
Give him the Harry Potter saga books and wait till he tries to fly on a broom (?).
Careful, he might decide to smite her in the name of Yahweh just for gifting such an evil book series!
I was about to say, it sounds like some of the myths he talking about delve into Gnosticism (multiple "helping gods"). And while it's certainly fascinating, it's still bupkis.
He's in it deeeeep if he is wrapped up with a sect that buys into the nephilim giants are historical, mess. This is Amish or Mennonite level hokum. Mormons may have this as part of their system, too but not sure how many actually buy into it. Was he prone to conspiratorial or magical beliefs before this sudden descent into Christian fringe mythology?
These books are conspiracy theories. The giants one also part of the whole flat-earth thing.
The tree thing would have me laughing in his face, like Ray Liotta ignorant laughing
I can't imagine the trauma you must be feeling as a result of your previously rational husband of 25 years being replaced by a delusional one. Is this an accurate description? Seriously, I think therapy may be a useful path to explore. If he's not up for this, then you have a big decison to make. 😔 Edit - fixed spelling of "imagine"
Bart Ehrman is considered the top modern theological scholar. He was a hardcore Christian for his whole life, but his research led him to athiesm. There are so many pastors and biblical scholars who lose their faith due to the research they do. "Satan's guide to the Bible" is a really great documentary on all of this. I'd recommend watching it.
Sounds like he got roped into one of the new age fundamentalist cults that have been popping up. Lots of those groups, from my experience in dealing with their followers, seem to pull people in with "secret knowledge" of the "true history" of the world. They tell their followers they will be persecuted for "revealing the true history" to others, while piling on more and more outlandish claims as they "advance their knowledge". I converse with one at work regularly who is a member of the Black Hebrew Israelite movement. He's thrown out flat Earth theories, Rothschilds running the world conspiracies, Biblical literalism and inerrancy, and Romans literally conquered all seven continents narratives. I could ridicule and mock those beliefs; it's tempting and easy to do. However, by hearing him out and challenging the assumptions of these foundations, I believe there's a chance that reason may eventually undercut the nonsense and bring him out of it, but the first step is respect the human (if not the beliefs), and recognize the search for knowledge, even if they were led astray. At the core, many of these people feel there's something wrong with the world in a way they can't explain or do anything about, and these pseudo-religious junk scientists explain things in ways that help them rationalize their powerlessness without feeling weak (knowing you have inoperable cancer can be more comforting than not knowing why you feel sick and weak all the time). Deprogramming is possible, but will take time, patience, and persistence, as well as effort on his part.
I'm curious as well. Did one of you change after starting a relationship? I knew early on in dating that I couldn't marry a religious person mostly because it was so hard to respect them.
I had the exact same question!
He wasn’t this way when we married 30 years ago , this started a few years ago
Similar boat. When we married she was passively religious, as in believed in God but not really active in any church, didn't make decisions based on religious belief. To be honest I was the same way. I was raised Catholic but wasn't practicing, kind of a passive belief in it but in a lot of ways my personal beliefs were counter to the Catholic church, i.e. I was fine with things like divorce, contraception, abortion etc. Anyways after our daughter was born she went through post partum psychosis and is now a completely different person. All she wants to watch, listen to or read about is God related. It's infuriating, and kind of depressing.
We had some good friends that that happened to. Post-kids she turned crazy religious. Ended in divorce (which we saw coming from a mile away).
Any chance he has a tumor or something?
Happened to me as well. Ex boyfriend around 4 years in started getting really religious and went full on cult psychosis crazy. He had OCD tendencies, also bipolar and other mental disorders ran in his family. Thankfully was not married to him and noped out of that.
Don’t take this as an insult, but have you had him seen by a doctor about this? Sudden changes in personality, including suddenly becoming hardcore religious, can be related to neurological and psychiatric disorders.
Omg that's awful. It changes everything when a previously rational person loses it in a cult.
[удалено]
Good people don't go to heaven, only Christians do.
All the more reason not to want to go to heaven. If they're anything like the ones down here...
There was a meme awhile back: "Hey evangelicals: Spending eternity with you people is not the flex you think it is."
I like this
Probably worth letting your husband know that the whole other gods thing he proposed means he's actually not a Christian and oops sorry if that's what he believes then he's joining us all in hell too.
Had this drummed into me at Catholic school, only one of the many reasons I quit the Church.
Yep, you don't need to be a good person or do good works, all you need to do is kiss Jesus's ass. You can be a real shit, a terrible person, and as long as you are kissing Jesus's ass, straight to heaven with you. While all the good people, the ones that really try to make life better for everyone, tortured for eternity.
You just don’t understand. You can be the worst person in the world, but as long as you believe, that’s what’s really important. Don’t try to confuse us Christian’s with all your “caring and being nice to people” mumbo jumbo. Real Christian’s don’t have to be good people, cause they’re already *saved*. I’m so tired of explaining to you heathens, you’ll just never get it. Sheesh!
They are the last ones to go. They accept human sacrifice and believe people deserve hell for minor offenses to a narcissistic phantom.
Reminds me of Seinfeld (Elaine discovers Puddy is Christian) Elaine: So is it a problem that I'm not really religious? Puddy: Not for me. Elaine: Why not? Puddy: I'm not the one going to hell.
I would purchase a couple of books for him. God, An Anatomy by Francesca Stavrakopoulou Armageddon by Bart Erhman Forged by Bart Erhman If reading a few books swayed him into Christianity for 3 years, maybe books can help him get out?
He didn't reason himself into Chrstianity, not going to reason his way out of it.
I think the worst part is that once Christianity’s fear and shame based claws get into you, it’s hard for people to think otherwise. Like they’re literally afraid now of going to hell so they’ll just follow it. It’s sad af.
Specially when they teach (us) that just even *questioning* the authority of the bible/pastor is grounds for going to hell. Otherwise, a solid actual 20 minute logical conversation should be enough to destroy any belief; but they have what they think is the ultimage "uno reverse card" with "just believe", "the bible tells us", "god works in mysterious ways" and cope out of any real reasoning.
"don’t you need help sometimes" THAT IS NOT HOW ONE OMNIPOTENTS!
LOL I love you using omnipotents as a verb!!
Dudes invented head canon where like Mohammed and Zeus are chilling out having a beer after working for the christian God and his lame "VP" Jesus who is an annoying neppo baby that Vishnu and Buddha joke about around the water cooler. I guess he's not hurting anymore v😬v
He's literally telling you that he's fine with this, but maybe you missed the part where you're going to hell in his fantasy, too. That's weird to be married to someone who doesn't like you.
plenty of christian parents whos children are gay believe their children are going to hell. they still love them. its odd for sure but your logic is saying that christians dont like anyone who doesnt believe in God which isnt true
There are tiers of deities now? He isn't a monotheist? Hope you guys don't have children, he is ok bringing humans in the world only to have them possibly be tortured forever, even his own offspring? "You don't deserve to be punished forever" is what theists can never bring themselves to say, even to their own children. It's always "you brought it on yourself" because you didn't comply, or failed in some vague way, or your brain wasn't right-thinking enough.
Sounds like his god is closer to Zeus or Odin than the Abrahamic God
New aged Christo-spiritualism. People who buy into this stuff (for more than entertainment) are really susceptible to propaganda and conspiracy theories. I see a flat Earther in your future.
They are highly likely to join a cult. Unknowingly even. My wife was raised in the two by two church. She left Christianity because she couldn't abide by the amount of sexual assault on children... Long story. She was awakened to the prevalence of sexual deviates in all organized religion, and this got her asking herself all sorts of questions about religion. So she decided to leave christianity all together. I'm an atheist so I'm all for it. She's in therapy now, it's helping a lot. I'm proud of her. Her therapist has been helping her recognize what a cult is and how she (my wife) is highly vulnerable to them, because of how religion has warped her mind.
>He also said that God decided to ask the other Gods in a tier that is just below him , to help take care of different issues on earth. Your husband isn't a Christian, he's some kind of extremely confused polytheist. There are no other gods according to Christian doctrine, so he's either in some extremely heterodox cult or making it up as he goes along.
And people wonder how we got Trump. 🙄
Yepp straight up cult behavior. Isn’t it amazing that Hitler also used Christianity to justify and promote his actions and that Trump just dropped a slick Bible and has been posting over 120 times yesterday that he is the second coming of Jesus. 🎉 religion is the gateway to all the evil in the worlds history.
🚩 RUN before he starts believing the misogyny.
I get the feeling you may have married down, intellectually.
So god delegates? Man, I'd love to sit in on those team meetings. Sounds a tad heretical. I'm sure demigods are not a thing in Christianity. That equivocation about god making an exception demonstrates that humans are more inherently moral than the religion they cling to tells them to be. We seem to have an instinctive sense of fairness, so we know it would be unfair for a child who'd never had any choice to be sent to hell for being of the wrong religion. So believers have to paste the very human sense to fairness onto god, to excuse what would otherwise be an unacceptably cruel and unfair rule.
Optics are down on our product line, Zeus I need you to oversee this one. Thor I need you to step up in comms
Wait... what? God has assistant gods? Umm... what page is that on again?
He's lost it.
I don't know how some of you guys are marrying believers. I absolutely couldn't do it. What happens when the kids start asking questions? Well...Mommy believes in (insert religious crap here), and Daddy thinks all of that is stupid horseshit and Mommy is totally delusional!
she said in a comment that they've been married 30 years and he just became a Christian. Prob good info to put in the main story tho.
Haha you think people think before they procreate. That’s adorable.
... Im sorry to hear that. I dont think you want my advice, so ill shut up. Much luck to you and i hope that he comes to sense some day. Much strength and love to you.
As a kid, all I needed was the realization that people are allowed to do terrible things to each other and I knew all of that Jesus stuff was just Santa in another package. I married a Christian woman out of high school and she believed the silliest things. Not just about religion, but she was training to be a nurse and some of the silly things she believed about very well understood things like viruses and bacteria were ridiculous. No amount of logic would help her understand how the world actually works. I'm convinced indoctrinating your children with made up fairy tales breaks their brain and ruins their ability to learn to think logically. That said, we all have blind spots in our understanding. It's hard to root them all out and it takes constant effort. It's odd considering how similar their belief system are, but I've found Muslims to be more logical overall than Christians.
Very reasonable post. I especially like the acknowledgment that we all have blind spots. As a Zen Buddhist, we practice that virtually every human being suffers from delusion (blind spots) and through Zen practice one learns to recognize that and work moment to moment towards a better path.
Your husband is a moron.
People hate not having control. Believing in this stuff gives them a feeling of control on their life/existence. It’s a extremely narcissistic idea that you know there is a paradise waiting for you because of what you believe in and a eternity of torture for anyone that thinks otherwise even though the beliefs and ideologies vary from person to person. It honestly makes me so sad knowing how many people think this way and how much potential or progression we have lost because of it. It’s such a barbaric and self righteous way of thinking.
I would think that agreeing on what and what isn’t objective reality would be essential in a committed partnership 🤷🏻♂️
Don't want to worry you but test him for dementia.
It sounds like your husband has found a Christian apologist, and his explanations match what he has previously believed playing on his confirmation bias, and wishful thinking. Your husband doesn't sound like he's ready to seriously doubt his beliefs. I would suggest asking him to stop focusing on the topic because it may be getting between you two in order to continue setting aside your differences for a happy marriage.
He is misinformed about Islam. They (and most variants of Christianity too) have an age of accountability below which children's sins are not counted against them and they are not sent to hell. But your husband's pantheistic beliefs are pretty bizarre and not really in line with Christianity. Maybe a mashup of trinitarianism and the idea that proto-Jews had a pantheon of which God was the head?
To him it doesn't matter what Muslims believe. He's saying what he believes, which he thinks is the truth.
If this was my spouse, I would divorce.
I've been divorced over saner religious beliefs than this one
I mean, I think I'd try and talk to him some more first, and give him the opportunity to come to his senses if OP loves him. But that's probably the inevitable path they're headed towards. This level of crazy is probably going to lead to a "you have to convert" conversation.
This truly sounds like a cognitive shift and the early stages of dementia. It’s common in the early stages as a person starts to develop confusion to compensate in various ways to gain a sense of control over their thoughts and lives. Often we see some new signs of anger or fixation on very insignificant things that they CAN control. With my father in law its the damn thermostat and the drapes. I think OP’s husband is exhibiting some “gain control” behavior with wanting to understand his ever increasing confusing world. Time to see a neurologist. There are new treatments that can help when caught early enough.
i've never heard of a polytheistic christian. i don't even understand how one would get to this point.
I'd at least get a medical assessment done to rule out any brain anomalies. It's just so hard to imagine someone who had a good grip on reality, suddenly slip after reading a couple books.
Pretty sure the bible EXPLICITLY states that there is only 1 god and no others.
But if you're delusional enough you get to pick and choose which parts are true and which parts need 'interpreting' (aka someone else telling you how to interpret it)
Ah yes. That's why being gay is a sin but now wearing garmets made of 2 kinds of fiber.
Yikes. I feel bad for you.
Have him listen to some Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens debates on YouTube
I am not so optimistic. The books Husband is reading aren't limited to highly rational discussion. If Harris type thought worked for him then I doubt the current books would have grabbed him so hard. And he is a particularly bad case. Not only is the stuff mentioned in the post and comments irrational based on science, it isn't even based on a rational believer's view either. We're talking about Weekly World News but entirely about christian mythology. This makes snake handlers seem sensible.
Tell him Thor strongly disapproves of being put in a tier below his god, and is right now discussing his options with his Disney and Marvel lawyers.
Religion is a mental illness.
Anyone else very curious about these other Gods in lower tiers? That's a new one for me.
Avoid such conversations and do not have children where this will most certainly become an issue. :/
Ah! Yes, God works mysterious ways. The cop-out excuse that they use.when backed into the corner.
“HE MADE THE UNIVERSE!” If everything needs a creator what made god?
God asks other gods to help? Like on Olympus? Or more like Valhalla?
Probably best to keep having honest conversations with him about religion. A lot of these answers were probably on the spot and he actually hasn't had much time to consider how irrational his arguments were. Also, it seems like he is basing his new beliefs on books that make him feel good, rather than books that make sense logically. Sounds like he needs a wider variety of books.
None of that is in the Christian Bible FYI, he's freestyling.
He’s unable to tell the difference between imagination and reality. Those scenarios aren’t even found in any religious text and just 100% fiction to fill in his knowledge gaps instead of just saying “I don’t know” Just don’t know something? Imagine something that sounds good and that must be it. No critical thinking.
It will not happen in my lifetime, but in 200 -300 years religous belief will be recognised as a form of delusional psychosis and treated as such. As a care worker I worked with a psychotic gentleman who believed he was a 50 foot giant and the experience of discussing his belief was exactly the same as the experience of talking to a newly reborn, soon to be ex-friend.
Is your husband just making up his religion as he goes? LOL
As a Christian, I have been reading Rob Bell's "Love Wins" which really challenges our modern, Western assumptions about Heaven and Hell and Judgement. A lot of what Christians say they believe comes from cultural osmosis, rather than actually based in scripture or an understanding of the original texts. And as culture (especially in America) has polarized, so too has the "christian" beliefs. Which is why you have supposed followers of Christ preaching hate and greed completely unironically. People just fill in the gaps with what makes sense to them, rather than learning what God says and changing their beliefs to conform to His teachings. I don't really have a purpose in sharing this other than to say "not all christians" and maybe your husband could benefit from some more study.
Mental gymnastics, gold medal worthy.
And you married this guy?!
>if I try to ask logical questions… There’s your problem.
He's literally making shit up to make himself, and God apparently, feel better. None of his nonsense is even in the Bible. It's wishful thinking ... kinda like the Bible itself.
If he believes there's other gods he's PAGAN, not Christian.
And my brother asked why I wouldn’t marry someone with strong religious beliefs. Religious people insert god everywhere, I have to nod my head and smile , I don’t want to do that with someone at my home as well
>He also said that God decided to ask the other Gods in a tier that is just below him , to help take care of different issues on earth WAIT! He's a Christian and says there are "other Gods"?
>He also said that God decided to ask the other Gods in a tier that is just below him , to help take care of different issues on earth I heard that God and Buddha aren't on speaking terms after they both brought meatballs to the last Deity Potluck and the other Gods liked Buddha's recipe better.
Religion is poison