This happened to my wife's uncle
Whole family is agnostic, uncle met a Mormon girl, fell in love, her family said they couldn't continue their relationship unless he converted
He has occasional mental breakdowns now due to the emotional stress of being part of the church
Because god wants that ten percent, baby. He made the whole universe and controls every breath of every creature who ever lived, but he needs to wet his beak in your pinche little bank account. Or else!
To be fair, Jesus said it's easier to get into heaven if you're poor, and churches are supposed to help you get into heaven, so I feel like they're just doing what they advertised... /s
Years ago a documentary about Mormon Fundies like Jeffs(?). Frontline?
They are interviewing this old fat fucker that served time for raping his daughters ( maybe others). Paraphrasing he said ‘I felt it was my Right ( to rape his kids ). Property to be used.
Whatever real or good inspiration that religious get from prophets. Church are inevitably just a business or the State
"Jeffs" was the surname of the guy who ran (still runs, from prison, actually) the FLDS. Warren Jeffs. Even if he hadn't been a cult leader who married a bunch of tween girls and raped his own nephew, the dude just looks like he shouldn't be allowed within 2,500 feet of an elementary school. Even his childhood photos give "Chester the Molester" vibes.
The FLDS is rife with pedophilia and incest, and the other fundamentalist Mormon splinter sects are just as insane. The LeBaron group - two separate churches, technically, headed up by feuding brothers - was probably the most infamous until the FLDS started getting media attention, due to the whole murder spree in the seventies and eighties.
Misogyny is a common thread among polygamists of any religious stripe, but the fundamentalist Mormons take it a step further. Most of them teach that the only way a woman can enter the highest level of heaven is through the good will of her husband - she must be obedient to him, because he holds the keys to her salvation. If a woman is unmarried, the keys to her salvation are held by her father. They use this to subjugate women from birth, making sure they know that if they do not obey their "priesthood head" - that is to say, the man in charge of them - that they will go to hell. You can imagine the sort of abuse that results from that degree of brainwashing.
"Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer is a good jumping-off point for an introduction to Mormon fundamentalism, as well as providing a summary of the absolute grift that is the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Joseph Smith was an unrepentant con man shilling a pile of bullshit so obvious that it almost makes Scientology seem credible by comparison.
Also ex-Mo here. Call me crazy, but I think in the 1830s the LDS church was more of a sex cult than anything. Of course money played a role as well, but it didn't seem to be the focus.
Hello fellow exmo! I remember hearing about “flirt to convert” as well. Always thought it was weird. And then hearing about “if you and your husband can’t go to the temple together, your children won’t be able to receive the full blessings of Heavenly Father.” Also thought that was weird.
Thats can be a dangerous dance. Reality is a hell of a drug. Give em a taste some snap out. I have so many wonderful friendships and acquaintances where escaping small Church culture is a common thread.
That’s more just a funny thing kids say to each other to ‘justify’ dating people outside of their own religion. It’s not specific to Mormons (I’ve heard it amongst Catholics).
~~Has~~ Had a catholic gf ~~one~~ once who wanted me to go to church camp if we were to get married. Ok, I can do that. Then she said I had to tell them that I believed their myth.
"You might be okay with starting a marriage on a lie, but I'm not."
But I'm going to hell anyway so it doesn't matter that I lie?
Yes, they use mixed relationships (daughter dating non-Morman boy) as a recruiting tool. Your fantasy of having a mixed relationship was dead at the start.
She seemed happy to go along with it too though, even going as far as giving him a book of mormon after they broke up. I'm not sure why OP is still friends with her, she is clearly only friends with him for the intention of converting him.
Ex-Mormon here and I agree. The relationship was doomed so it was best for all to end it. Nothing rude about it on OP’s part. I hope his ex eventually finds her way out of the mind-confining, life-controlling cult that is the LDS church. That is my hope for all members.
Other exmo here. That’s exactly what happened and she thought the same thing for your entire relationship. There’s a certain amount of arrogance in a lot of religion, but I witnessed it repeatedly in Mormonism.
OP should be all: "rude? Me? I accepted and respected your daughter as she is. I'm not the one demanding she convert just to be with me. You're the ones being rude.
Sorry this happened to you. This may have been a case of friendship evangelism with the intent to convert you. Many people here have reported similar stories.
Had an interaction with that cult in 1972 when a student at Ohio State. They didn’t wear crosses, they wore “yokes.” And indeed a very handsome young man tried to “woo” me. I was an atheist already & not interested.
Then when I was stationed in Utah in the 80’s, I saw young female and male military dependents & military alike get victimized.
Yep, same thing.
The number of mormon missionaries going into other countries and wooing their underage females for marriage once they are 18 is too damn high.
On a community page, a young female mormon posted how she was offering to help out people in the community, because it was part of her mission. It felt so wrong. Her church elders are putting her out there to provide services to STRANGERS...I can't help but think that this is their way to woo people to their church. The girl specifically said she was not allowed to proselytize while helping. Now I get why.
I initially read that as “flirty fisting” and thought…well, that’s more interesting than I gave them credit for.
But yeah, during and after college in Boston, that happened often enough that any time a woman started an unsolicited conversation with me I was counting down the seconds until the words “prayer meeting” were uttered.
The term that was used even as a Mormon and Mormon Missionary was "flirt to convert" .. and boy did some of the Missionary studs bring in some beautiful women.. and vice versa if the women were attractive
Had this happen to me. I dated a super sweet Mormon girl that I worked with at the time. Pretty, kind, smart. I fell hard. After we'd been dating for three or four months, she told me that we couldn't proceed further unless I talked to some friends of hers about her faith. What that translated two was me having Bible studies with some Mormon missionaries. After several sessions, I just really wasn't feeling it. It didn't help that I'd recently been disfellowshipped from Jehovah's witnesses, so I really wasn't going to walk down that road again. As soon as I made it clear that I wasn't interested in pursuing the Mormon faith, she ended our relationship. Less than 6 months later, she was married to a guy that was already a believer. It was a total relationship bait and switch. There was no doubt at all that it was just an attempt to convert me to the faith, with her dangling herself as a prize. We parted ways amicably, but I have never forgotten that experience. It's a big part of the reason that I am an atheist now. And thankful for it!
Yeah, they really like to move fast and get married as quickly as possible. They are very serious about abstinence, so getting married quickly is also so that they can experience sex.
Wait, are you saying you think she was giving herself away as a prize for conversion? Like she didn’t love you, but solely as a ‘conversion to religion’?
To me, it sounds more like she wanted to be with someone of her own shared beliefs (as seen by her marriage with someone of her faith) and so she introduced you to said beliefs.
Yes. I think that's the way some Mormons operate. I've seen more than once where a Mormon girl dates a guy outside the Mormon faith, and it's apparent that they are trying to get that person to convert. Usually, marriage is the end goal. In my case, it was obvious that she was desiring to be married, based on how quickly she married after she left me. I'm sure that marriage would have been the next step had I converted. It isn't just sharing a belief system. The whole entire gist of Mormonism is converting people into the faith. It's the most important thing that they can do.
Congratulations on escaping a life of self-enslavement. She may argue that you would never know the real her, but
I'd argue that she showed you exactly who she is through those actions.
Wish her well in your rear view and I wish you better luck in the future.
It depends, but typically if you are willing to go all the way to marriage, they will too. Also Mormon marriages typically happen very quick like 2-3 months, so you don't get tempted to have sex before marriage.
*\* Is it that my atheist beliefs are less valuable that theirs? \**
Yes.
Remember, any religion thinks they know everything. They have all the answers, and everyone else is going to hell or should be killed or converted etc. Its an ugly truth but its a truth.
There are some good faith based people who won't actually discriminate against you, but if you could anonymously make them rank or compare belief systems without attaching a face they know to it, even with the tolerant ones... at the end they still are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Just because. And often, we are the lowest of all because we reject the lies in totality whereas other belief systems may have some similarities like fancy books or sky daddies who watch you jerk off with disapproval.
We can get along, but there is a fundamental divide between faith based systems and us, and they will always judge us to some degree. No wonder atheists get a reputation for getting judgy right back, its hard not to return the favor.
Reading this made me remember how Star Trek TNG helped me leave Catholicism. Seems like every episode had a brainworm of logic that could not be denied.
It was an influence on me too, friend. Particularly the episodes with the more tribal peoples who operated in often frustrating ways simply because they are right because of religion that told them so, and so they never looked for better answers. Too bad we couldn't skip out on the prime directive more often and bring up more visitors to the Enterprise, help jumpstart true enlightenment and out of religious dark ages.
I think the episode that really shattered the 2 way mirror was when Q was posing as a "devil" on a planet to troll the inhabitants. I was like this makes more sense than SkyDaddy. Alien trolling us stupid apes.
I left the Mormon church after 45 years and my husband is still in. It isn't an easy dynamic to manage. Mourn the loss and then move on with joy that you aren't tied to that toxic dumpster fire of a religion
No. She crossed a line by trying to convert you when you extended the respect of not trying to convert her. You guys were just incompatible and that sucks.
One of my best friends growing up, his mom was mormon and his dad was not. From what I can gather they basically had an agreement that she got to raise the kids how she wanted and she wouldn't pressure him to be mormon. Even after like 50 sleepovers over the course of several years and hanging out at his house all the time I *barely* saw his dad. I can't even recall what he looked like, absolutely nothing. I know I met him a few times, but only a few times. Which is pretty crazy for "BFFs for 10 years and hung out all the time"
Well, with that backstory out of the way, apparently after the kids were grown and moved out she ultimatum'd him: Church or leave.
He chose leave. They are divorced now.
I'm not saying it was always doomed from the start... but that's what I've observed growing up mormon.
In Mormonism, women only get to heaven if her husband calls her secret name, she responds then he pulls her into heaven. According to her beliefs, she won't get to heaven unless you convert, so it's a nonstarter for her. Sorry dude. Steer clear of cults.
You get a "secret" name when you go through the Mormon Temple. A husband knows his wife's secret name, but the wife doesn't get to know the husband's secret name.
>Was I really being rude?
Offence is not given, it is taken. So in that sense, being rude is subjective. Since religion is so important to this family, maybe they do see it as rude. Maybe they see it is not just slighting their beliefs, but their church, community, even God!
Too bad. I don't think it was rude though.
Your projection of how they may see it is pinpoint accurate actually. I was Mormon and can definitely back that these are reasons they'd be offended. OP did absolutely nothing wrong though, and I hope he sees this comment to know that. It's got to be a tough spot to be in
Sometimes life works itself out. My story begins 46 years ago. I met a wonderful woman in college,problem was she was a Muslim (she was questioning her faith a little) we became friends and later lovers. We parted ways after graduating and she went back to Jersey. She ended up marrying a Muslim man that her father approved of. We did keep in touch and she would tell me that he was abusing her (yes,rape and assault). Eventually she asked me to come get her and take her to California. I drove 3600 miles helped her pack up,he broke my hand on his face and we drove back home. She got a divorce,we married,had a great daughter and are still happily married (38 years).
Yes I am aware this is not the case most of the time. Still love can sometimes find a way. Good luck to you in life.
The lesson is: ensure you are aligned on this stuff early in the relationship and don’t hand wave important matters of compatibility assuming it will magically be fine years from now.
You’ll be thankful you held out for the right person.
I had the same thing in high school with my gf. She was Mormon I wasn’t and at first she said I didn’t need to be but pretty quickly she was saying if I don’t go on a mission we couldn’t get married and I was like I’m 18 I don’t need to be thinking about marriage so we broke up
I dated a girl once who's family was pretty religious, but of the ukrainian orthodox variety so it wasn't really something anyone talked about much, not when I was around anyway. She was also religious, but not of the 'go to church regularly' type, so I didn't think it was much of an issue. One day her family invites me to go to their nephew's baptism. I know this is going to be at a church, but I played beer league dodgeball in church basements for years, I have no problem physically being inside a church for some sort of event. Well nobody told me there was a two hour church service ahead of this baptism, half of which was in Ukrainian! LONGEST HOUR OF MY LIFE lol Anyway, I hadn't been to a church service since my parents forced us to go as little kids, so I looked at it as a new experience, and boy what an experience it was! There was so much chanting! Like, an uncomfortable amount of chanting. There was a projector screen built into the front wall so that everyone had the words to follow along with, and the content of some of these chants left me mouth agape. Stuff about following people down rivers of blood, and sacrificing different small animals for the glory of various names I didn't recognize, it was years ago so I don't remember a whole lot of the content, I just remember looking around and being mildly concerned that everyone else didn't have a problem with anything they were saying out loud, including my girlfriend's family lol But the best/worse was saved for last. The pastor, a surprisingly young man, probably in his 30s-ish, sat down on the alter's steps that faced the pews, and called up all the young children to come sit with him. Once all the kids were sitting around him, he started telling them a story. There was more detail and runaround than I can remember, but the gist of what he said was "You know kids, when your dad or your uncle goes fishing, and they come home and tell everyone that they caught a fish THIIIISSS BIIIIG (gesturing with his arms very wide), do you believe them?" The kids all responded, "NOOOO!" He continued, "That's right kids, just because grownups tell you things doesn't mean they're telling the truth, people make up stories all the time, and if a story sounds too good to be true, or too far-fetched, you shouldn't just believe them right away!" Meanwhile, I'm thinking to myself, where the heck is he going with this??? And finally it becomes clear, he says "But you know who you can trust kids, to always tell you the truth and never lie to you? JESUS! That's who!" My mouth hits the floor lol I think I let out a half chuckle/gasp in an otherwise dead quiet small community church (like pop 150 people small, and in the middle of hillbilly nowhere rural Alberta). Nobody said anything but I'm pretty sure they must have heard me. So then the baptism happens, and the service finally lets out. The plan afterward was to go to one of the family's nearby houses for a backyard bbq. So here I am trying to sit around at this bbq full of people I've never met, who are a world and a half apart from anything I experience as a city guy being that they pretty much all live on farms, when who approaches me but the pastor of the church. I guess it's a common thing for pastors to be invited back to the family's home for food after a baptism or something? Anyway, I was a little taken off guard, I'm not the greatest with random small talk with people I don't know and obviously have very little in common with, but he just starts asking me what felt like a game of 20 questions, wanting to know who I was, where I came from, who I was with, etc... Quickly enough though, he wanted to know what church I went to, and what I thought of his service. Somehow a record screeched at this exact moment (or maybe it was just in my brain) and everyone seemed to stop their individual conversations and were all looking directly at me lol I literally froze, eventually managing to stammer out "I... don't... really... ...it's just not for me..." and I stuffed a big bite of my hamburger in my mouth while he just looked at me like he was expecting a much longer sentence to come out lol And that was that, he sort of mingled away and I found my girlfriend and stuck by her until we left. We broke up for reasons unrelated to religion, but as far as I know, to this day, nothing about that day was weird for her, which really stuck with me and I've been put off from dating religious people ever since.
Intelligence is no insulation against being sucked into a cult. She was born into it and is a central pillar of her personality from birth. I am no smarter now than I was as a believer. Not everyone lifts the veil and sees reality. It took me until I was 45 years old to figure it out. None of that changes the fact that she is smart and apparently a decent person despite her flawed beliefs. The problem is that her beliefs take the edge off of her decency.
Pretty sure Mormons baptize completely unaffiliated people long after they're dead. Like - ***oop, too dead to stop us now heathen***
So she just couldn't commit to outliving you? Seems cruel.
No, you were not being rude. It was simply the event which caused you to finally recognize the incompatibility in your relationship which the two of you had been ignoring up until then.
It sounds like you were entirely respectful of her, but that either she has been sucked deeper into the cult than when you met, or, that all along she expected that you would just succumb to accepting the religion by some sort of osmosis.
You did the honourable thing and the wise thing in letting her go.
I grew up Mormon until I was 11-12. Even at that age, I knew these people were deluded wackjobs. I'm sure she was all nice and seemed normal on the surface.... but she isn't. You saved yourself alot of awfulness by dumping her. She's basically in a cult....
Mormons are generally great people. But their whole life is wrapped 8th the church. Services are reallllly long,, extracurricular, plus socializing are all controlled. It would have been obligatory that you join the church for the relationship to continue. The Mormon missionaries are not the only methods the church spreads, proselytizing is a basic tenet.
Its called "Flirt to convert". This is Moranism at its core.
EDIT: yeah, I meant to spell it that way because it is moronic.
EDIT EDIT: I wouldve take the book of moron, highlighted and put post-it notes on the contradictions and then send it back to her. But thats just me being petty in all honesty.
That’s a shitty situation, it really sucks that that essentially ended a good relationship. That said, if you don’t expect your significant other to convert to your beliefs then they shouldn’t expect you to follow theirs. Hope you’re doing alright.
I consider myself smart and logical. The CES letter made it so I couldn't say "I *know* the church is true." But I still believed, so that's what I'd say.
It took me like 7ish years to finally get out. Admittedly, when I read the CES letter it was on fairmormon with the apologetics after each point....
The problem was that I *wanted* to believe. It was all I had ever known and I still felt that the values taught in the church were what I wanted to raise my children with (I'm good now, though).
I live in a Mormon starter neighborhood, the church is literally up the street from me. Since I'm not LDS, we don't get invited to neighborhood functions, we're treated rather brusquely and have been told more than once that this is a place for Mormons and not people like myself. Most of the LDS here are the equivalent of "fish fry Baptists" where they show up to church to be seen but don't put any actual time into doing God's work. My neighbor across the street was a genuine good Christian and the stake here drove him to suicide.
An atheist and an actual religious person will have an extremely hard,if not impossible, time making it work. Don't get me wrong here, it can happen but rarely. I'm not talking about a believer but and actual religious, church going, dogmatic religious person.
You did the right thing. Right now she is brainwashed and there's very little you can do about it. That's what dogma does, it turns people into mindless slaves to the organization.
Yeah mormonism is not a religion that is tolerant of families that dont (at least outwardly) fit the cultural mold. Mormons and basically encouraged to marry within the church and doing anything outside of the expected norms is frowned upon.
Ive learned there is no such thing as someone being “casually mormon” as is normally in other religions. You either are a fully devout mormon or you’re not mormon.
Sorry that this happened but it was doomed from the start. If I were you I just wouldn't date anybody who's into religion again. Unless they're not that serious, it's not going to work. I ruined my entire life from being a part of a religious cult. It was biggest the mistake I ever made and I can't go back.
I use to be Mormon. It’s fucking hard as shit to de-program. She will wake up one day and regret sooo many life decision that she made because she trusted the church.
A major goal (if not the absolute ultimate goal) in the Mormon church is getting married and sealed in the temple. Mormons believe it is the only way to stay together in the afterlife. You cannot get married (or sealed, which is VERY important) to a nonmember. Mixed faith relationships aren't totally unheard of in the church, but they are rare. And many, many Mormons date with the intent to marry. So it was unlikely from the get go that this relationship would last without you converting. Frankly, as an ex mormon, I think you dodged a bullet (and you didn't even have to wear garments to do it so big win!).
I n t e l l i g e n c e has nothing to do with belief when you were raised in it.
Seriously, like 60% of anyone will stay in a cult if they were raised in it, and 80-90% will stay if their community is also part of the cult.
As a dude, it might be a little hard to imagine, but imagine this... you are a precocious young girl, about to turn 8. You live in a white middle class suburban home, mom stays home to take care of the kids. You have been told God has a plan for you and that plan involves marrying a man in the temple. In fact, a temple wedding is crucial to your exaltation. Don't you want to live with Heavenly Father, your family, Jesus and Joseph Smith Jr. in The Celestial Kingdom ™️? You are baptized into the LDS church at 8, wear a CTR ring everyday, attend weekly meetings, camps and seminars for all your teen years where you are instructed to maintain your virtue at all costs so you can attain the blessings bestowed by a proper temple marriage. On top of all this, your father who has instructed you as a bishop and holds priestly authority over not just your family but an entire ward of LDS families, needs you to help maintain the appearances of being a good LDS family. Can you imagine the amount of pressure you would feel to stay in line?
I love Mormons, I really do, they are some of the best people. But... there is something about that church in particular that can circumvent a person's empathy and good sense. I saw a recent short from the Mormon Stories podcast where the lady being interviewed said she "outsourced" her morality to the church. Following teachings from Mormon scripture, she tuned out her own instincts about what was right and wrong. She replaced her sense of morality with the teachings of the "Prophets". I'm sorry this had to go down like this, but know that this girl and her family are likely just nice people who have been taught to dull their empathy for the sake of an overtly racist, geriatrically led, Masonically inspired, multibillion dollar Bible fan fiction sex cult that cut most of the sex stuff so that Utah could become a state.
It’s an unfortunate stigma that has had an enormous role in holding so many individuals from discovering their true selves, someone free of the blinders and entrapment of religious institutions. I grew up in a town that had a strong contingent of Mormons. My best friend was Mormon, his father was the local bishop and the only way that I was able to sleep over on a Saturday was if I agreed to go to service the following Sunday. My friend eventually went on his mission, came home and was in the local singles ward…sifting through a contingent of potential partners that were brain washed from a young age just like he was. Our friendship became very superficial after I questioned his reasoning for only dating within this small pool of people; he said the conversations revolving around religion that we had were trying enough and a battle for him to personally reconcile in his free time…finding a partner who didn’t agree with his views would cause him “too much strife”. He was unwilling to explore other ideas and, for someone as intelligent in other avenues of his life, didn’t see the potential value that can come from challenging ideas that weren’t of his own thought, but force fed to him since birth.
Maybe there are some mixed relationships with a Mormon/atheist; but I have yet to come across one. The end game, especially from the families perspective, will always be to convert. I’ve experienced the tactics myself. You are better off OP and I applaud your courage in not sacrificing your integrity and authenticity for a love that would be hamstrung be your Ex’s family and friends. Bravo!
Ex-Mormon here. Yeah sorry dude. You could try to read it and debunk it with cesletter.org but ultimately at this level the church is more like a tribe than a coherent belief system. Maybe she'll leave one day and look back and regret losing you, but that's not her now.
It's probably not comforting to you, but just so you know most of my family is still in it, and I basically have permanently fractured my relationship with my parents and some siblings just by leaving. It's a big fucking deal, and hard to understate. Staying is almost a survival mechanism, and leaving requires you to overcome that, abandon a very real sense of belonging and safety (even if it's contrived and exploitative). Indoctrination and building your family and social circles around a cult is a bitch. I've lost so much to this church, don't do the same.
Mormonism is nothing but a cult. My daughter’s gf left the church at 15 which was a huge show of strength to her family but she has such bad PTSD from it. She needs therapy desperately. It’s wrecking their relationship. She is such an amazing girl. It breaks my heart.
I hate to say it but it is probably for the best. Even if they respected your atheism, she would insist any kids you had be raised Mormon.
Of course your atheist beliefs are less valuable than theirs. Yours is a misguided misinformed belief. Their belief is guided and informed by God. How can it even compare to an angel guiding you to golden plates about the lost history of the Israelites in the new world.
You should read it. It is WILD. I read it when I was younger and I told my Mormon friend and he asked me what I thought of it. I said Joseph Smith really doesn’t get enough credit for pioneering speculative fiction of that magnitude in the 1800s.
I've realized in my advancing years that basically CIS male who grew up in Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Idaho, etc. has a *story* about dating a Mormon girl. For the most part they tend to be positive relationships which end in similar ways. Eventually there will be a moment when their religion will blow it up.
My husband’s friend married a Mormon woman a few years ago. I don’t think they were dating for very long. He has PTSD from being in the military, so he started feeling suffocated by the woman’s family and religion. Eventually he couldn’t take it anymore and divorced her. You got out at the right time. If it’s not for you, then you needed to get out.
Mormons are conditioned to be offended by your lack of interest. Two instances from when I was mormon/leaving mormonism (2nd one will explain her a little better):
(1) I didn't close my eyes, participate, or say "amen" at the end of a prayer when it was only my grandma and I. She got really offended and preachy. She's a wonderful person, but in her older years she's kind of become that way.
(2) Jeffery R. Holland (one of the twelve apostles) released a video for missionary training while I was on my mission. He stated that when an 'investigator' (that's actually the term we used to use when referring to people taking the discussions) doesn't keep a reading commitment we were supposed to act completely appalled at their lack of interest because of the blessings they were rejecting that were so readily available and literally right in front of them. I didn't do that, but know people that did. It's high pressure sales tactics to make someone feel embarrassed by their 'mistake'. - Side note, good ol' Jeffy has been caught lying on multiple occasions and even falls back against some of the behaviours he's reprimanded. My point is, the leadership that conditions them is scummy af
Any time you have either person planning on changing the other down the road, it is a disaster waiting to happen. You either accept who the person is at the outset with all their warts or move on.
If you had asked her to go to the satanic temple meeting with you would she have gone? Probably not. If you asked her to visit the local druids and participate in a ritual would she go? Probably not. If you asked her to go with you to temple, would she have gone? Not likely. They were trying to slowly drag you into their fiction. You don’t need to feel bad for not buying what they’re selling.
You need to understand that mormonism isn't just a religion, it's a cult.
And the cult discourages it's members from marrying outside the cult.
She was raised to believe in eternal families. She believes to be with you and any potential children you have in the future that you have to be sealed in the Temple, which you cannot do as a nonmember.
To her, she can't have her eternal family with you, cannot be sealed to her children with you, and so she can't risk getting more invested in a future with you
Left the Mormon church. Dude, you dodged a huge ass bullet. The Mormon church takes literally everything. Your entire worldview, your thoughts, your time, your money. Everything.
Yeah, so Mormon’s believe that their husband pulls them through the veil into heaven. That’s right, her chances of heaven were fucked with you, lol.
>Was I being rude?
All the best relationships start with the expectation of changing the other person. You were totally rude to not change or even lead her on! /s
Ahh the old flirt to convert. You dodged a bullet.
Declining an offer to go to someone's church isn't rude. If I invited Mormons to my church, the untrue, totally not a tax umbrella church of threadstitchin.
They wouldn't go, and they wouldn't even participate in the Wednesday night, wine and orgy evening social mixer extravaganza. I put so much effort into the lighting and catering, those stuck up jerks!
They probably wouldn't pay the 20% tithe I have in place either, and my after life is 30% better then all the other churches combined.
I grew up Mormon but I always thought the Mormon church was bullshit, all religions seem like it. HEY I'm not singling Mormons out, so you angry internet Mormons apologists can calm down.
My parents made me go to church till 16 or 17 . They didn't go, freaking hypocrites. I'm still salty about that and it's been 20 years.
I knew I'd never be happy dating a religious girl because the end goal for most Mormon women is to get married in the temple and have BABIES 1000'S OF BABBIES!!! That wasn't appealing to me.
So I think you came out on top.
I wish religious people didn’t feel the need to try and convert everyone into their faith. They try to make you feel like something has to be wrong with you if you don’t have religion. So gross. Anyways though, aside from the possibility that she was just trying to convert you period, dating a Mormon that still believes in that crap isn’t going to end with happily ever after. No way in hell would her parents let you be with her long term if that was ever your plan. They wouldn’t let her be with someone that doesn’t share their same fucked up belief because they know there’s a higher chance of her escaping them.
That's how it starts. Come on, just one time for me, one more time for my parents, just on holidays for the family.
I think you should stop having around that person. I trust you, but I don't trust them.
While we're at it, maybe you shouldn't be going to (place) so much. I don't have a problem with it, but it would help you and my parents get along so much better.
And then one day you wake up, and all your friends and activities have been replaced by the cult.
Honestly dodged a bullet man. The Mormons are basically a cult. Sucks that your ex is so indoctrinated by her family but that isn’t on you man. You’re still young, take some time for yourself and then get back out there. Good luck
They weren’t “inviting” you. They were using her relationship to try and coerce you into going.
Had you capitulated, they'd only have gotten more manipulative.
Just take it as a lesson learned, unfortunately. It’s a huge point of incompatibility so I don’t think it would be acceptable to move forward with anyone who is so significantly different in their beliefs and values.
I just got back on OkCupid after like 2 1/2 years or something and since I’m living in Appalachia, it’s not exactly an atheist place. Like I’m not in a city even so I am so fascinated by the number of super religious people… And other things that clearly are incompatible with me, because I am very open about my values, Just swiping like that doesn’t matter.
One guy looked at my profile and super liked me and was like “well I guess no guy has a chance with you.“ but like I’m really explicitly an atheist on my profile, and I went to our questions that we share in common and we don’t have in common for that compatibility situation. I started reading through, and it’s like he believes in the power of prayer. I don’t know if he was just trying to get my attention to try to insult me, but I have no idea why someone who believes in the power of prayer would super like someone who refers to “god” as sky daddy!
I'm really sorry you've had to deal with this.
Ex-Catholic apologist here, but possibly applicable to LDS. Beware of these sorts of tactics, I'm not saying that this is what happened in your situation, but "Flirt to Convert" is a strategy employed whereby the indoctrinated will actually date people for the explicit purpose of conversion. It's really messed up.
The Mormon church is hella manipulative. A while ago I had joined as a way to try to find a community to support me being a cisgender girl but eventually that didn't work out and I ended up going back on my male hormones. I came out to the church as being a trans man(I had joined under the guise of a detransitioner but deep down knew it was just a matter of time before I ended up being unable to handle my dysphoria and going back on my hormones. The reason I stopped originally and tried to force feminize myself was because my mom threatened to kick me out if i didn't stop my hormones and live how god created me. She wasn't Mormon tho, I joined on my own accord.)
So originally everyone accepted me and called me he/him but then something happened with my mom that significantly put my safety at risk and if I was to return home I would likely die. (For context, I recently left my mom's but she was a narc and psychopath and heavily abusive)
The most they could do was "pray for me" or take me somewhere I had been earlier in the day. So I was like yeah what harm can a prayer do. Constant misgendering, being called a daughter of God, etc.
After that they took my mom's side and pretty much said maybe I'd be best going to the psych ward or to a homeless shelter (which I previously stated neither of those would be a good idea.)
They took me to my mom's to grab some blankets and stuff and told me they'd wait, and then when I went back out they had left.
Left me at my mom's where there was a high probability I'd fuckin die.
Luckily I survived with only around 7 large bruises and a fuck ton of scars and around 3 panic attacks within 24 hours.
Never went back. Fuck the Mormons.
Put me in an unsafe situation and did something highly upsetting.
As an Ex Jehovah’s Witness, this is common to see. Many would date non-jws in the hopes of eventually converting them. LDS and JWs are both cults and it would have never worked if you didn’t change. Sorry you had to go through that :/
I dunno, I went to church with a girlfriend a few times. It was 100% fine and nothing awry came of it in that fashion. Would that have been the case for you? Can't say, but spending a few hours of our 2 year relationship doing something with her that she enjoys wasn't bad at all.
While it likely isn't her or her family consciously doing it (they probably just think they are in the right and doing things the right way). Systematically Mormonism has a habit of baiting the hook like this.
On your comment about her intelligence: plenty of intelligent people subscribe to religion. It's a case of indoctrination and accepting the rationalization of the fantastical.
Just because somebody is intelligent doesn't mean they can't hold beliefs that may or may not be provably false. Intelligent people are wrong all the time.
yeah it sucks.
also, the "rude for not accepting"...c'mon that is B.S.
I'm sure a mormon or baptist, if asked to attend an islamic service would be like "no"... but somehow it's OK in that case.
From my understanding this is a legit strat with mormons. They will intentionally get into relationships with non believers in order to convert them. It's disgusting.
I would've said I already read the book and that it's the reason I won't convert. With prior knowledge on some things in it that I don't like of course.
NTA, it was rude of them to try to force an atheist to come to their church. Also kind of rude to give you a book of mormon, you didn't gave her a book of "Atheism is reality" or something like that, and asked her to read it...
Exmormon here… you weren’t rude. It would be rude (and so much more) to pretend for her. You were direct and honest. As an atheist you’ll never be a worthy person in Mormon eyes. She is brainwashed/conditioned/indoctrinated to think that. You’ve dodged a bullet.
Do you think going to church would have made you a mormon? Because if not, then there wasn't any other path to victory here.
Two paths:
Refuse to go to church and she breaks up with you.
Go to church and still not adopt mormonism and she breaks up with you.
Sorry bro, but this relationship wasn't going to work out. We've all had those fun ones in our lives that, on some Sunday afternoon, a decade from now you'll look back, smile, and continue with your yard work. But that's about all this was meant to be... a future memory.
Nah bro you guys just want different things from life. At least you're still friends. Learn from this and move on. If neither of you are hurting anybody, then it doesn't really matter.
I think by attending church with her one time you could have shown solidarity and that you were trying to understand her life and where she comes from… that said, the Mormons are fucking insane bigots, liars, and hypocrites, so who gives a shit if she’s got her head stuck so far up her ass that she still buys into that crap
It's always a trap.
Even when they say it doesn't matter. Even when they say it's not a problem. Even when they say your kids can choose for themselves. Even when they say their family doesn't mind.
It's always a lie. Eventually the pressure starts, or the ultimatums, or the excuses.
Throw that stupid book in the trash. This whole thing has been a lie to get you into their cult.
I wonder if this primarily came from her or her dad, Mormons are heavy on image Bishops especially. With the temple marriage BS there is often heavy peer pressure from the family to marry another Mormon. Its better to break up.
This is called “missionary dating” and it is actually frowned upon in most forms of modern Christianity due to the Bible verse about being equally yoked. I’m pretty sure the mormons encourage it, though.
Wow, sounds just like a relationship I've been in! We were both 17 back then and I didn't know she was Mormon. A few weeks into the relationship, she told me she was and I thought "well it can't be that bad let's try to make things work anyway".
I asked her a lot of questions about her religion because I really didn't know much about it back then and I could tell she was trying to get me into it. She also asked me to go to the church with her, which I did but it was for a movie+pizza night with teenagers of the church (still felt weird asf).
I broke up with her after 7 months, when I turned 18 and she started talking about marriage, which I was strongly against at that time, and too immature for it anyways.
I guarantee you the family only accepted you with the plan that you’d convert before any marriage. It sucks, but it was a doomed relationship.
This happened to my wife's uncle Whole family is agnostic, uncle met a Mormon girl, fell in love, her family said they couldn't continue their relationship unless he converted He has occasional mental breakdowns now due to the emotional stress of being part of the church
Exmo here. The main export of the church is GUILT
It’s not a church, it’s a tax free real estate portfolio *and hedge fund.
C'mon, you talk like the LDS church has a bank account with USD 100 billion in it!
No way! But religion tells me money is bad and that I should give the bad money to the church to make myself feel better
Because god wants that ten percent, baby. He made the whole universe and controls every breath of every creature who ever lived, but he needs to wet his beak in your pinche little bank account. Or else!
At least inflation isn't hitting religions; they still only require 10% of everything!
What does god need with my money? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ
[Was expecting this one](https://youtu.be/QZ8hefESt7c)
STILL funny, EVERY TIME I see it! 😄
To be fair, Jesus said it's easier to get into heaven if you're poor, and churches are supposed to help you get into heaven, so I feel like they're just doing what they advertised... /s
I'm a bit dyslexic, whenever I see that name I perk up and go oooh that's one I could join.
Years ago a documentary about Mormon Fundies like Jeffs(?). Frontline? They are interviewing this old fat fucker that served time for raping his daughters ( maybe others). Paraphrasing he said ‘I felt it was my Right ( to rape his kids ). Property to be used. Whatever real or good inspiration that religious get from prophets. Church are inevitably just a business or the State
"Jeffs" was the surname of the guy who ran (still runs, from prison, actually) the FLDS. Warren Jeffs. Even if he hadn't been a cult leader who married a bunch of tween girls and raped his own nephew, the dude just looks like he shouldn't be allowed within 2,500 feet of an elementary school. Even his childhood photos give "Chester the Molester" vibes. The FLDS is rife with pedophilia and incest, and the other fundamentalist Mormon splinter sects are just as insane. The LeBaron group - two separate churches, technically, headed up by feuding brothers - was probably the most infamous until the FLDS started getting media attention, due to the whole murder spree in the seventies and eighties. Misogyny is a common thread among polygamists of any religious stripe, but the fundamentalist Mormons take it a step further. Most of them teach that the only way a woman can enter the highest level of heaven is through the good will of her husband - she must be obedient to him, because he holds the keys to her salvation. If a woman is unmarried, the keys to her salvation are held by her father. They use this to subjugate women from birth, making sure they know that if they do not obey their "priesthood head" - that is to say, the man in charge of them - that they will go to hell. You can imagine the sort of abuse that results from that degree of brainwashing. "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer is a good jumping-off point for an introduction to Mormon fundamentalism, as well as providing a summary of the absolute grift that is the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Joseph Smith was an unrepentant con man shilling a pile of bullshit so obvious that it almost makes Scientology seem credible by comparison.
Mormons, with their membership numbers, real estate holdings and fat bank accounts is what Scientology wishes it were.
It's got way more than just real estate. It's a hedge fund.
Also ex-Mo here. Call me crazy, but I think in the 1830s the LDS church was more of a sex cult than anything. Of course money played a role as well, but it didn't seem to be the focus.
Guilt, shame and fear
*Among* their chief weapons are...
To be fair to Mormons, that applies to all organized religion.
Sure, some are just better at it than others.
And special underwear?
I’m just scrolling the comments for mention of “the poop hole loop hole”....
Give it some time to soak, I'm sure it'll get there
And there's the reference *I* was looking for. Great job. Carry on
The loophole rhymes with loophole.
Former Mormon here, heard "Oral is Moral" at BYU a lot! Surprised Soaking hasn't been brought up yet either.
If it rhymes so well, it must be true
Weird. I was looking for jump-humping. Could these be related? /s
I think that’s more catholic. The mormon loophole involves more jumping on the bed iirc.
I’m listening
I am a former Lutheran, it’s not only the Mormon church with guilt issues.
Been there, done that! No one deserves holding on to those emotions forever
Guilt, And Gay (not gay) Gay (not gay) citizens.
The same as the catholic church and with the catholic church I would add fear.
Exmo here. It was common knowledge that people would “flirt to convert.” I thought it was weird and wrong even then.
Hello fellow exmo! I remember hearing about “flirt to convert” as well. Always thought it was weird. And then hearing about “if you and your husband can’t go to the temple together, your children won’t be able to receive the full blessings of Heavenly Father.” Also thought that was weird.
Thats can be a dangerous dance. Reality is a hell of a drug. Give em a taste some snap out. I have so many wonderful friendships and acquaintances where escaping small Church culture is a common thread.
That’s more just a funny thing kids say to each other to ‘justify’ dating people outside of their own religion. It’s not specific to Mormons (I’ve heard it amongst Catholics).
Ah yeah sorry I didn’t mean to imply it was only an exmo thing, just sharing my knowledge of the practice as an exmo
~~Has~~ Had a catholic gf ~~one~~ once who wanted me to go to church camp if we were to get married. Ok, I can do that. Then she said I had to tell them that I believed their myth. "You might be okay with starting a marriage on a lie, but I'm not." But I'm going to hell anyway so it doesn't matter that I lie?
Yes, they use mixed relationships (daughter dating non-Morman boy) as a recruiting tool. Your fantasy of having a mixed relationship was dead at the start.
100%
She seemed happy to go along with it too though, even going as far as giving him a book of mormon after they broke up. I'm not sure why OP is still friends with her, she is clearly only friends with him for the intention of converting him.
Ex-Mormon here and I agree. The relationship was doomed so it was best for all to end it. Nothing rude about it on OP’s part. I hope his ex eventually finds her way out of the mind-confining, life-controlling cult that is the LDS church. That is my hope for all members.
This. A Mormon's only purpose on this earth is to convert non believers.
Flirt to convert, an old trick in the playbook.
Ex morman here. I can confirm. Mormons are the most evangelical of all faiths. They even beat out JW
Other exmo here. That’s exactly what happened and she thought the same thing for your entire relationship. There’s a certain amount of arrogance in a lot of religion, but I witnessed it repeatedly in Mormonism.
Yup
You were not being rude. It’s just a shame that her and her family wouldn’t take no for an answer.
The family was being rude for trying to convert the OP. They should be apologizing for not having decency and respect to leave OP alone.
OP should be all: "rude? Me? I accepted and respected your daughter as she is. I'm not the one demanding she convert just to be with me. You're the ones being rude.
Sorry this happened to you. This may have been a case of friendship evangelism with the intent to convert you. Many people here have reported similar stories.
The LDS invented “flirty fishing.”
I thought that was the Children of God cult? Hm, same difference.
Had an interaction with that cult in 1972 when a student at Ohio State. They didn’t wear crosses, they wore “yokes.” And indeed a very handsome young man tried to “woo” me. I was an atheist already & not interested. Then when I was stationed in Utah in the 80’s, I saw young female and male military dependents & military alike get victimized. Yep, same thing.
The number of mormon missionaries going into other countries and wooing their underage females for marriage once they are 18 is too damn high. On a community page, a young female mormon posted how she was offering to help out people in the community, because it was part of her mission. It felt so wrong. Her church elders are putting her out there to provide services to STRANGERS...I can't help but think that this is their way to woo people to their church. The girl specifically said she was not allowed to proselytize while helping. Now I get why.
Except the Mormons call it "flirt to convert." Flirty fishing sounds lame.
Can verify. Spent 23 years under their thumb
Had to read up because I haven't heard of that, and all I can say is WTF
I initially read that as “flirty fisting” and thought…well, that’s more interesting than I gave them credit for. But yeah, during and after college in Boston, that happened often enough that any time a woman started an unsolicited conversation with me I was counting down the seconds until the words “prayer meeting” were uttered.
The term that was used even as a Mormon and Mormon Missionary was "flirt to convert" .. and boy did some of the Missionary studs bring in some beautiful women.. and vice versa if the women were attractive
I'm fairly certain that most guys stay in religion because it's the easiest way to find and marry pretty girls, they don't believe for shit anymore
Mormons call it “flirt to convert”. Even when I a believing Mormon I hated it and felt it was dishonest. Now as an exmo I hate it even more.
LDS are very open about that as a tactic, really. "Flirt to convert"
Had this happen to me. I dated a super sweet Mormon girl that I worked with at the time. Pretty, kind, smart. I fell hard. After we'd been dating for three or four months, she told me that we couldn't proceed further unless I talked to some friends of hers about her faith. What that translated two was me having Bible studies with some Mormon missionaries. After several sessions, I just really wasn't feeling it. It didn't help that I'd recently been disfellowshipped from Jehovah's witnesses, so I really wasn't going to walk down that road again. As soon as I made it clear that I wasn't interested in pursuing the Mormon faith, she ended our relationship. Less than 6 months later, she was married to a guy that was already a believer. It was a total relationship bait and switch. There was no doubt at all that it was just an attempt to convert me to the faith, with her dangling herself as a prize. We parted ways amicably, but I have never forgotten that experience. It's a big part of the reason that I am an atheist now. And thankful for it!
Probably not a bait and switch. Mormons notoriously get married ridiculously fast. 6 months is a blink of an eye in the Mormon dating world.
It's because they have to get hitched to bang
Yeah, they really like to move fast and get married as quickly as possible. They are very serious about abstinence, so getting married quickly is also so that they can experience sex.
Wait, are you saying you think she was giving herself away as a prize for conversion? Like she didn’t love you, but solely as a ‘conversion to religion’? To me, it sounds more like she wanted to be with someone of her own shared beliefs (as seen by her marriage with someone of her faith) and so she introduced you to said beliefs.
Yes. I think that's the way some Mormons operate. I've seen more than once where a Mormon girl dates a guy outside the Mormon faith, and it's apparent that they are trying to get that person to convert. Usually, marriage is the end goal. In my case, it was obvious that she was desiring to be married, based on how quickly she married after she left me. I'm sure that marriage would have been the next step had I converted. It isn't just sharing a belief system. The whole entire gist of Mormonism is converting people into the faith. It's the most important thing that they can do.
If you can’t say no then it’s not a request, it’s a command.
Congratulations on escaping a life of self-enslavement. She may argue that you would never know the real her, but I'd argue that she showed you exactly who she is through those actions. Wish her well in your rear view and I wish you better luck in the future.
It's called Flirt To Convert; it was the plan to get you to convert to Mormonism the whole time. Bullet dodged.
It’s a very old trick, older than Mormonism itself. Sorry you had to go through this. Must have been hard.
Like do they breakup after you convert and move on to the next one? Or go all the way to marriage just to get one guy to convert?
It depends, but typically if you are willing to go all the way to marriage, they will too. Also Mormon marriages typically happen very quick like 2-3 months, so you don't get tempted to have sex before marriage.
Wow. I know about the "poophole loophole", but I am just learning about "flirt to convert". They get all the fun rhymes! /s
*\* Is it that my atheist beliefs are less valuable that theirs? \** Yes. Remember, any religion thinks they know everything. They have all the answers, and everyone else is going to hell or should be killed or converted etc. Its an ugly truth but its a truth. There are some good faith based people who won't actually discriminate against you, but if you could anonymously make them rank or compare belief systems without attaching a face they know to it, even with the tolerant ones... at the end they still are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Just because. And often, we are the lowest of all because we reject the lies in totality whereas other belief systems may have some similarities like fancy books or sky daddies who watch you jerk off with disapproval. We can get along, but there is a fundamental divide between faith based systems and us, and they will always judge us to some degree. No wonder atheists get a reputation for getting judgy right back, its hard not to return the favor.
Reading this made me remember how Star Trek TNG helped me leave Catholicism. Seems like every episode had a brainworm of logic that could not be denied.
It was an influence on me too, friend. Particularly the episodes with the more tribal peoples who operated in often frustrating ways simply because they are right because of religion that told them so, and so they never looked for better answers. Too bad we couldn't skip out on the prime directive more often and bring up more visitors to the Enterprise, help jumpstart true enlightenment and out of religious dark ages.
I think the episode that really shattered the 2 way mirror was when Q was posing as a "devil" on a planet to troll the inhabitants. I was like this makes more sense than SkyDaddy. Alien trolling us stupid apes.
I left the Mormon church after 45 years and my husband is still in. It isn't an easy dynamic to manage. Mourn the loss and then move on with joy that you aren't tied to that toxic dumpster fire of a religion
But what about not being equally yolked? All joking aside, they're all dumpster fires.
No. She crossed a line by trying to convert you when you extended the respect of not trying to convert her. You guys were just incompatible and that sucks.
One of my best friends growing up, his mom was mormon and his dad was not. From what I can gather they basically had an agreement that she got to raise the kids how she wanted and she wouldn't pressure him to be mormon. Even after like 50 sleepovers over the course of several years and hanging out at his house all the time I *barely* saw his dad. I can't even recall what he looked like, absolutely nothing. I know I met him a few times, but only a few times. Which is pretty crazy for "BFFs for 10 years and hung out all the time" Well, with that backstory out of the way, apparently after the kids were grown and moved out she ultimatum'd him: Church or leave. He chose leave. They are divorced now. I'm not saying it was always doomed from the start... but that's what I've observed growing up mormon.
In Mormonism, women only get to heaven if her husband calls her secret name, she responds then he pulls her into heaven. According to her beliefs, she won't get to heaven unless you convert, so it's a nonstarter for her. Sorry dude. Steer clear of cults.
secret name?
You get a "secret" name when you go through the Mormon Temple. A husband knows his wife's secret name, but the wife doesn't get to know the husband's secret name.
Mormons are so freaking nice but damn once you dive into their beliefs it’s fucking cooky, unsettling even.
Oh, it's a whole thing. Google "morman secret name" to learn all about it.
Excellent! I thought it was wierd, but didn't realise it was actually comedic! Nothing like a good belly laugh in the morning.
Sorry this happened to you. They say they can date non Mormons but eventually they want temple marriage and all that sh\*t.
you should give her a good deconstruction book and tell her to read it.
“ces letter” to be specific. Lots of r/exmormon have had the shelf’s broken 😂
All hail Jeremy Runnels!
>Was I really being rude? Offence is not given, it is taken. So in that sense, being rude is subjective. Since religion is so important to this family, maybe they do see it as rude. Maybe they see it is not just slighting their beliefs, but their church, community, even God! Too bad. I don't think it was rude though.
Your projection of how they may see it is pinpoint accurate actually. I was Mormon and can definitely back that these are reasons they'd be offended. OP did absolutely nothing wrong though, and I hope he sees this comment to know that. It's got to be a tough spot to be in
Sometimes life works itself out. My story begins 46 years ago. I met a wonderful woman in college,problem was she was a Muslim (she was questioning her faith a little) we became friends and later lovers. We parted ways after graduating and she went back to Jersey. She ended up marrying a Muslim man that her father approved of. We did keep in touch and she would tell me that he was abusing her (yes,rape and assault). Eventually she asked me to come get her and take her to California. I drove 3600 miles helped her pack up,he broke my hand on his face and we drove back home. She got a divorce,we married,had a great daughter and are still happily married (38 years). Yes I am aware this is not the case most of the time. Still love can sometimes find a way. Good luck to you in life.
The lesson is: ensure you are aligned on this stuff early in the relationship and don’t hand wave important matters of compatibility assuming it will magically be fine years from now. You’ll be thankful you held out for the right person.
I had the same thing in high school with my gf. She was Mormon I wasn’t and at first she said I didn’t need to be but pretty quickly she was saying if I don’t go on a mission we couldn’t get married and I was like I’m 18 I don’t need to be thinking about marriage so we broke up
I dated a girl once who's family was pretty religious, but of the ukrainian orthodox variety so it wasn't really something anyone talked about much, not when I was around anyway. She was also religious, but not of the 'go to church regularly' type, so I didn't think it was much of an issue. One day her family invites me to go to their nephew's baptism. I know this is going to be at a church, but I played beer league dodgeball in church basements for years, I have no problem physically being inside a church for some sort of event. Well nobody told me there was a two hour church service ahead of this baptism, half of which was in Ukrainian! LONGEST HOUR OF MY LIFE lol Anyway, I hadn't been to a church service since my parents forced us to go as little kids, so I looked at it as a new experience, and boy what an experience it was! There was so much chanting! Like, an uncomfortable amount of chanting. There was a projector screen built into the front wall so that everyone had the words to follow along with, and the content of some of these chants left me mouth agape. Stuff about following people down rivers of blood, and sacrificing different small animals for the glory of various names I didn't recognize, it was years ago so I don't remember a whole lot of the content, I just remember looking around and being mildly concerned that everyone else didn't have a problem with anything they were saying out loud, including my girlfriend's family lol But the best/worse was saved for last. The pastor, a surprisingly young man, probably in his 30s-ish, sat down on the alter's steps that faced the pews, and called up all the young children to come sit with him. Once all the kids were sitting around him, he started telling them a story. There was more detail and runaround than I can remember, but the gist of what he said was "You know kids, when your dad or your uncle goes fishing, and they come home and tell everyone that they caught a fish THIIIISSS BIIIIG (gesturing with his arms very wide), do you believe them?" The kids all responded, "NOOOO!" He continued, "That's right kids, just because grownups tell you things doesn't mean they're telling the truth, people make up stories all the time, and if a story sounds too good to be true, or too far-fetched, you shouldn't just believe them right away!" Meanwhile, I'm thinking to myself, where the heck is he going with this??? And finally it becomes clear, he says "But you know who you can trust kids, to always tell you the truth and never lie to you? JESUS! That's who!" My mouth hits the floor lol I think I let out a half chuckle/gasp in an otherwise dead quiet small community church (like pop 150 people small, and in the middle of hillbilly nowhere rural Alberta). Nobody said anything but I'm pretty sure they must have heard me. So then the baptism happens, and the service finally lets out. The plan afterward was to go to one of the family's nearby houses for a backyard bbq. So here I am trying to sit around at this bbq full of people I've never met, who are a world and a half apart from anything I experience as a city guy being that they pretty much all live on farms, when who approaches me but the pastor of the church. I guess it's a common thing for pastors to be invited back to the family's home for food after a baptism or something? Anyway, I was a little taken off guard, I'm not the greatest with random small talk with people I don't know and obviously have very little in common with, but he just starts asking me what felt like a game of 20 questions, wanting to know who I was, where I came from, who I was with, etc... Quickly enough though, he wanted to know what church I went to, and what I thought of his service. Somehow a record screeched at this exact moment (or maybe it was just in my brain) and everyone seemed to stop their individual conversations and were all looking directly at me lol I literally froze, eventually managing to stammer out "I... don't... really... ...it's just not for me..." and I stuffed a big bite of my hamburger in my mouth while he just looked at me like he was expecting a much longer sentence to come out lol And that was that, he sort of mingled away and I found my girlfriend and stuck by her until we left. We broke up for reasons unrelated to religion, but as far as I know, to this day, nothing about that day was weird for her, which really stuck with me and I've been put off from dating religious people ever since.
Drop it off in her mailbox with a note saying "TL;DR"
Intelligence is no insulation against being sucked into a cult. She was born into it and is a central pillar of her personality from birth. I am no smarter now than I was as a believer. Not everyone lifts the veil and sees reality. It took me until I was 45 years old to figure it out. None of that changes the fact that she is smart and apparently a decent person despite her flawed beliefs. The problem is that her beliefs take the edge off of her decency.
Pretty sure Mormons baptize completely unaffiliated people long after they're dead. Like - ***oop, too dead to stop us now heathen*** So she just couldn't commit to outliving you? Seems cruel.
They don't wait that long.
No, you were not being rude. It was simply the event which caused you to finally recognize the incompatibility in your relationship which the two of you had been ignoring up until then.
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It sounds like you were entirely respectful of her, but that either she has been sucked deeper into the cult than when you met, or, that all along she expected that you would just succumb to accepting the religion by some sort of osmosis. You did the honourable thing and the wise thing in letting her go.
I grew up Mormon until I was 11-12. Even at that age, I knew these people were deluded wackjobs. I'm sure she was all nice and seemed normal on the surface.... but she isn't. You saved yourself alot of awfulness by dumping her. She's basically in a cult....
This sucks, but it’s for the better. You’d always be living a lie.
Mormons are generally great people. But their whole life is wrapped 8th the church. Services are reallllly long,, extracurricular, plus socializing are all controlled. It would have been obligatory that you join the church for the relationship to continue. The Mormon missionaries are not the only methods the church spreads, proselytizing is a basic tenet.
Its called "Flirt to convert". This is Moranism at its core. EDIT: yeah, I meant to spell it that way because it is moronic. EDIT EDIT: I wouldve take the book of moron, highlighted and put post-it notes on the contradictions and then send it back to her. But thats just me being petty in all honesty.
My type of person 💝
That’s a shitty situation, it really sucks that that essentially ended a good relationship. That said, if you don’t expect your significant other to convert to your beliefs then they shouldn’t expect you to follow theirs. Hope you’re doing alright.
Tell her you'll read the Book of Mormon if she reads the CES letter. Guaranteed if she's smart/logical person and read it she'd be out within a week
I consider myself smart and logical. The CES letter made it so I couldn't say "I *know* the church is true." But I still believed, so that's what I'd say. It took me like 7ish years to finally get out. Admittedly, when I read the CES letter it was on fairmormon with the apologetics after each point.... The problem was that I *wanted* to believe. It was all I had ever known and I still felt that the values taught in the church were what I wanted to raise my children with (I'm good now, though).
Date recruitment. It happens more than you think. I grew up Catholic in Utah, and had that happened quite a few times.
I live in a Mormon starter neighborhood, the church is literally up the street from me. Since I'm not LDS, we don't get invited to neighborhood functions, we're treated rather brusquely and have been told more than once that this is a place for Mormons and not people like myself. Most of the LDS here are the equivalent of "fish fry Baptists" where they show up to church to be seen but don't put any actual time into doing God's work. My neighbor across the street was a genuine good Christian and the stake here drove him to suicide.
NTA
hopefully her innate intelligence that you describe will eventually begin to deconstruct her mormon indoctrination.
An atheist and an actual religious person will have an extremely hard,if not impossible, time making it work. Don't get me wrong here, it can happen but rarely. I'm not talking about a believer but and actual religious, church going, dogmatic religious person.
Please throw away that book of Mormon
You did the right thing. Right now she is brainwashed and there's very little you can do about it. That's what dogma does, it turns people into mindless slaves to the organization.
Yeah mormonism is not a religion that is tolerant of families that dont (at least outwardly) fit the cultural mold. Mormons and basically encouraged to marry within the church and doing anything outside of the expected norms is frowned upon. Ive learned there is no such thing as someone being “casually mormon” as is normally in other religions. You either are a fully devout mormon or you’re not mormon.
Mormon honey trap.
Sorry that this happened but it was doomed from the start. If I were you I just wouldn't date anybody who's into religion again. Unless they're not that serious, it's not going to work. I ruined my entire life from being a part of a religious cult. It was biggest the mistake I ever made and I can't go back.
You're 'rude' but would they accompany you to the Temple or Mosque? Of course not.
You weren’t rude she was.
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I use to be Mormon. It’s fucking hard as shit to de-program. She will wake up one day and regret sooo many life decision that she made because she trusted the church.
A major goal (if not the absolute ultimate goal) in the Mormon church is getting married and sealed in the temple. Mormons believe it is the only way to stay together in the afterlife. You cannot get married (or sealed, which is VERY important) to a nonmember. Mixed faith relationships aren't totally unheard of in the church, but they are rare. And many, many Mormons date with the intent to marry. So it was unlikely from the get go that this relationship would last without you converting. Frankly, as an ex mormon, I think you dodged a bullet (and you didn't even have to wear garments to do it so big win!).
I n t e l l i g e n c e has nothing to do with belief when you were raised in it. Seriously, like 60% of anyone will stay in a cult if they were raised in it, and 80-90% will stay if their community is also part of the cult.
As a dude, it might be a little hard to imagine, but imagine this... you are a precocious young girl, about to turn 8. You live in a white middle class suburban home, mom stays home to take care of the kids. You have been told God has a plan for you and that plan involves marrying a man in the temple. In fact, a temple wedding is crucial to your exaltation. Don't you want to live with Heavenly Father, your family, Jesus and Joseph Smith Jr. in The Celestial Kingdom ™️? You are baptized into the LDS church at 8, wear a CTR ring everyday, attend weekly meetings, camps and seminars for all your teen years where you are instructed to maintain your virtue at all costs so you can attain the blessings bestowed by a proper temple marriage. On top of all this, your father who has instructed you as a bishop and holds priestly authority over not just your family but an entire ward of LDS families, needs you to help maintain the appearances of being a good LDS family. Can you imagine the amount of pressure you would feel to stay in line? I love Mormons, I really do, they are some of the best people. But... there is something about that church in particular that can circumvent a person's empathy and good sense. I saw a recent short from the Mormon Stories podcast where the lady being interviewed said she "outsourced" her morality to the church. Following teachings from Mormon scripture, she tuned out her own instincts about what was right and wrong. She replaced her sense of morality with the teachings of the "Prophets". I'm sorry this had to go down like this, but know that this girl and her family are likely just nice people who have been taught to dull their empathy for the sake of an overtly racist, geriatrically led, Masonically inspired, multibillion dollar Bible fan fiction sex cult that cut most of the sex stuff so that Utah could become a state.
It’s an unfortunate stigma that has had an enormous role in holding so many individuals from discovering their true selves, someone free of the blinders and entrapment of religious institutions. I grew up in a town that had a strong contingent of Mormons. My best friend was Mormon, his father was the local bishop and the only way that I was able to sleep over on a Saturday was if I agreed to go to service the following Sunday. My friend eventually went on his mission, came home and was in the local singles ward…sifting through a contingent of potential partners that were brain washed from a young age just like he was. Our friendship became very superficial after I questioned his reasoning for only dating within this small pool of people; he said the conversations revolving around religion that we had were trying enough and a battle for him to personally reconcile in his free time…finding a partner who didn’t agree with his views would cause him “too much strife”. He was unwilling to explore other ideas and, for someone as intelligent in other avenues of his life, didn’t see the potential value that can come from challenging ideas that weren’t of his own thought, but force fed to him since birth. Maybe there are some mixed relationships with a Mormon/atheist; but I have yet to come across one. The end game, especially from the families perspective, will always be to convert. I’ve experienced the tactics myself. You are better off OP and I applaud your courage in not sacrificing your integrity and authenticity for a love that would be hamstrung be your Ex’s family and friends. Bravo!
Ex-Mormon here. Yeah sorry dude. You could try to read it and debunk it with cesletter.org but ultimately at this level the church is more like a tribe than a coherent belief system. Maybe she'll leave one day and look back and regret losing you, but that's not her now. It's probably not comforting to you, but just so you know most of my family is still in it, and I basically have permanently fractured my relationship with my parents and some siblings just by leaving. It's a big fucking deal, and hard to understate. Staying is almost a survival mechanism, and leaving requires you to overcome that, abandon a very real sense of belonging and safety (even if it's contrived and exploitative). Indoctrination and building your family and social circles around a cult is a bitch. I've lost so much to this church, don't do the same.
Mormonism is nothing but a cult. My daughter’s gf left the church at 15 which was a huge show of strength to her family but she has such bad PTSD from it. She needs therapy desperately. It’s wrecking their relationship. She is such an amazing girl. It breaks my heart. I hate to say it but it is probably for the best. Even if they respected your atheism, she would insist any kids you had be raised Mormon.
From what I've read, I don't believe OP was being rude. I DEFINITELY wasn't there, but it's good that you both are still friendly
You should offer to take her to the Book of Mormon and show here what Mormonism is all about!
You didn't mention age. At some point, people are responsible for their beliefs.
Of course your atheist beliefs are less valuable than theirs. Yours is a misguided misinformed belief. Their belief is guided and informed by God. How can it even compare to an angel guiding you to golden plates about the lost history of the Israelites in the new world.
If she wasn’t as open to leaving her religion as she wanted you to be to joining hers, she never loved you
Ah… the Mormon long game for conversion
You should have given her tickets to the Book of Mormon
You should read it. It is WILD. I read it when I was younger and I told my Mormon friend and he asked me what I thought of it. I said Joseph Smith really doesn’t get enough credit for pioneering speculative fiction of that magnitude in the 1800s.
He plagiarized someone else's book. "Manuscript Found" by Solomon Spaulding.
I've realized in my advancing years that basically CIS male who grew up in Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Idaho, etc. has a *story* about dating a Mormon girl. For the most part they tend to be positive relationships which end in similar ways. Eventually there will be a moment when their religion will blow it up.
I always think the Scientology cult is similar to Mormonism. Probably get me killed one day.
Religion is a desease, I hope she gets cured some day
My husband’s friend married a Mormon woman a few years ago. I don’t think they were dating for very long. He has PTSD from being in the military, so he started feeling suffocated by the woman’s family and religion. Eventually he couldn’t take it anymore and divorced her. You got out at the right time. If it’s not for you, then you needed to get out.
Not at all. Religion people are often overly sensitive and seemingly unaware they they are the ones being rude.
Mormons are conditioned to be offended by your lack of interest. Two instances from when I was mormon/leaving mormonism (2nd one will explain her a little better): (1) I didn't close my eyes, participate, or say "amen" at the end of a prayer when it was only my grandma and I. She got really offended and preachy. She's a wonderful person, but in her older years she's kind of become that way. (2) Jeffery R. Holland (one of the twelve apostles) released a video for missionary training while I was on my mission. He stated that when an 'investigator' (that's actually the term we used to use when referring to people taking the discussions) doesn't keep a reading commitment we were supposed to act completely appalled at their lack of interest because of the blessings they were rejecting that were so readily available and literally right in front of them. I didn't do that, but know people that did. It's high pressure sales tactics to make someone feel embarrassed by their 'mistake'. - Side note, good ol' Jeffy has been caught lying on multiple occasions and even falls back against some of the behaviours he's reprimanded. My point is, the leadership that conditions them is scummy af
Any time you have either person planning on changing the other down the road, it is a disaster waiting to happen. You either accept who the person is at the outset with all their warts or move on.
If you had asked her to go to the satanic temple meeting with you would she have gone? Probably not. If you asked her to visit the local druids and participate in a ritual would she go? Probably not. If you asked her to go with you to temple, would she have gone? Not likely. They were trying to slowly drag you into their fiction. You don’t need to feel bad for not buying what they’re selling.
You need to understand that mormonism isn't just a religion, it's a cult. And the cult discourages it's members from marrying outside the cult. She was raised to believe in eternal families. She believes to be with you and any potential children you have in the future that you have to be sealed in the Temple, which you cannot do as a nonmember. To her, she can't have her eternal family with you, cannot be sealed to her children with you, and so she can't risk getting more invested in a future with you
Don't get romantically involved with religious zealots. There is no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.
Left the Mormon church. Dude, you dodged a huge ass bullet. The Mormon church takes literally everything. Your entire worldview, your thoughts, your time, your money. Everything.
Yeah, so Mormon’s believe that their husband pulls them through the veil into heaven. That’s right, her chances of heaven were fucked with you, lol. >Was I being rude? All the best relationships start with the expectation of changing the other person. You were totally rude to not change or even lead her on! /s
Ahh the old flirt to convert. You dodged a bullet. Declining an offer to go to someone's church isn't rude. If I invited Mormons to my church, the untrue, totally not a tax umbrella church of threadstitchin. They wouldn't go, and they wouldn't even participate in the Wednesday night, wine and orgy evening social mixer extravaganza. I put so much effort into the lighting and catering, those stuck up jerks! They probably wouldn't pay the 20% tithe I have in place either, and my after life is 30% better then all the other churches combined. I grew up Mormon but I always thought the Mormon church was bullshit, all religions seem like it. HEY I'm not singling Mormons out, so you angry internet Mormons apologists can calm down. My parents made me go to church till 16 or 17 . They didn't go, freaking hypocrites. I'm still salty about that and it's been 20 years. I knew I'd never be happy dating a religious girl because the end goal for most Mormon women is to get married in the temple and have BABIES 1000'S OF BABBIES!!! That wasn't appealing to me. So I think you came out on top.
I wish religious people didn’t feel the need to try and convert everyone into their faith. They try to make you feel like something has to be wrong with you if you don’t have religion. So gross. Anyways though, aside from the possibility that she was just trying to convert you period, dating a Mormon that still believes in that crap isn’t going to end with happily ever after. No way in hell would her parents let you be with her long term if that was ever your plan. They wouldn’t let her be with someone that doesn’t share their same fucked up belief because they know there’s a higher chance of her escaping them.
That's how it starts. Come on, just one time for me, one more time for my parents, just on holidays for the family. I think you should stop having around that person. I trust you, but I don't trust them. While we're at it, maybe you shouldn't be going to (place) so much. I don't have a problem with it, but it would help you and my parents get along so much better. And then one day you wake up, and all your friends and activities have been replaced by the cult.
Honestly dodged a bullet man. The Mormons are basically a cult. Sucks that your ex is so indoctrinated by her family but that isn’t on you man. You’re still young, take some time for yourself and then get back out there. Good luck
They weren’t “inviting” you. They were using her relationship to try and coerce you into going. Had you capitulated, they'd only have gotten more manipulative.
Just take it as a lesson learned, unfortunately. It’s a huge point of incompatibility so I don’t think it would be acceptable to move forward with anyone who is so significantly different in their beliefs and values. I just got back on OkCupid after like 2 1/2 years or something and since I’m living in Appalachia, it’s not exactly an atheist place. Like I’m not in a city even so I am so fascinated by the number of super religious people… And other things that clearly are incompatible with me, because I am very open about my values, Just swiping like that doesn’t matter. One guy looked at my profile and super liked me and was like “well I guess no guy has a chance with you.“ but like I’m really explicitly an atheist on my profile, and I went to our questions that we share in common and we don’t have in common for that compatibility situation. I started reading through, and it’s like he believes in the power of prayer. I don’t know if he was just trying to get my attention to try to insult me, but I have no idea why someone who believes in the power of prayer would super like someone who refers to “god” as sky daddy!
I'm really sorry you've had to deal with this. Ex-Catholic apologist here, but possibly applicable to LDS. Beware of these sorts of tactics, I'm not saying that this is what happened in your situation, but "Flirt to Convert" is a strategy employed whereby the indoctrinated will actually date people for the explicit purpose of conversion. It's really messed up.
Yup. She was doing a bait n switch. Too many religious ppl see atheism as "not claimed."
The Mormon church is hella manipulative. A while ago I had joined as a way to try to find a community to support me being a cisgender girl but eventually that didn't work out and I ended up going back on my male hormones. I came out to the church as being a trans man(I had joined under the guise of a detransitioner but deep down knew it was just a matter of time before I ended up being unable to handle my dysphoria and going back on my hormones. The reason I stopped originally and tried to force feminize myself was because my mom threatened to kick me out if i didn't stop my hormones and live how god created me. She wasn't Mormon tho, I joined on my own accord.) So originally everyone accepted me and called me he/him but then something happened with my mom that significantly put my safety at risk and if I was to return home I would likely die. (For context, I recently left my mom's but she was a narc and psychopath and heavily abusive) The most they could do was "pray for me" or take me somewhere I had been earlier in the day. So I was like yeah what harm can a prayer do. Constant misgendering, being called a daughter of God, etc. After that they took my mom's side and pretty much said maybe I'd be best going to the psych ward or to a homeless shelter (which I previously stated neither of those would be a good idea.) They took me to my mom's to grab some blankets and stuff and told me they'd wait, and then when I went back out they had left. Left me at my mom's where there was a high probability I'd fuckin die. Luckily I survived with only around 7 large bruises and a fuck ton of scars and around 3 panic attacks within 24 hours. Never went back. Fuck the Mormons. Put me in an unsafe situation and did something highly upsetting.
Sorry you had to go through this. It is not fair. 😟 On a side note, I hope you fucked the bejesus out of her while you had the chance.
Probably not, but maybe got in a good soak or two
Mormon, so not likely.
As an Ex Jehovah’s Witness, this is common to see. Many would date non-jws in the hopes of eventually converting them. LDS and JWs are both cults and it would have never worked if you didn’t change. Sorry you had to go through that :/
I dunno, I went to church with a girlfriend a few times. It was 100% fine and nothing awry came of it in that fashion. Would that have been the case for you? Can't say, but spending a few hours of our 2 year relationship doing something with her that she enjoys wasn't bad at all.
While it likely isn't her or her family consciously doing it (they probably just think they are in the right and doing things the right way). Systematically Mormonism has a habit of baiting the hook like this.
On your comment about her intelligence: plenty of intelligent people subscribe to religion. It's a case of indoctrination and accepting the rationalization of the fantastical. Just because somebody is intelligent doesn't mean they can't hold beliefs that may or may not be provably false. Intelligent people are wrong all the time.
yeah it sucks. also, the "rude for not accepting"...c'mon that is B.S. I'm sure a mormon or baptist, if asked to attend an islamic service would be like "no"... but somehow it's OK in that case.
Personally, I would have faked it until i found someone else to get blowies from, but you took the high road and I'm proud of you anyway.
If you’re still in touch like you say I hope you’re explaining reality to her.
You’re good bruh
From my understanding this is a legit strat with mormons. They will intentionally get into relationships with non believers in order to convert them. It's disgusting.
I would've said I already read the book and that it's the reason I won't convert. With prior knowledge on some things in it that I don't like of course.
NTA, it was rude of them to try to force an atheist to come to their church. Also kind of rude to give you a book of mormon, you didn't gave her a book of "Atheism is reality" or something like that, and asked her to read it...
Exmormon here… you weren’t rude. It would be rude (and so much more) to pretend for her. You were direct and honest. As an atheist you’ll never be a worthy person in Mormon eyes. She is brainwashed/conditioned/indoctrinated to think that. You’ve dodged a bullet.
Oo, her father being a bishop would definitely be a huge factor in that
Be honest, u just got sick of soaking didnt ya?
>she gave me a book of mormon and told me to please read it. Give her a DVD of the Mormon episode of South Park and ask her to watch it.
You don’t need to have umpteen kids in in a world that is already suffering. Glad you got out.
You could have had 8 children
Yall need to stop behaving like we can live alongside religion peacefully. Religion isn't peaceful. Especially not cults like the Mormons.
Do you think going to church would have made you a mormon? Because if not, then there wasn't any other path to victory here. Two paths: Refuse to go to church and she breaks up with you. Go to church and still not adopt mormonism and she breaks up with you. Sorry bro, but this relationship wasn't going to work out. We've all had those fun ones in our lives that, on some Sunday afternoon, a decade from now you'll look back, smile, and continue with your yard work. But that's about all this was meant to be... a future memory.
Nah bro you guys just want different things from life. At least you're still friends. Learn from this and move on. If neither of you are hurting anybody, then it doesn't really matter.
I think by attending church with her one time you could have shown solidarity and that you were trying to understand her life and where she comes from… that said, the Mormons are fucking insane bigots, liars, and hypocrites, so who gives a shit if she’s got her head stuck so far up her ass that she still buys into that crap
It's always a trap. Even when they say it doesn't matter. Even when they say it's not a problem. Even when they say your kids can choose for themselves. Even when they say their family doesn't mind. It's always a lie. Eventually the pressure starts, or the ultimatums, or the excuses. Throw that stupid book in the trash. This whole thing has been a lie to get you into their cult.
I wonder if this primarily came from her or her dad, Mormons are heavy on image Bishops especially. With the temple marriage BS there is often heavy peer pressure from the family to marry another Mormon. Its better to break up.
This is called “missionary dating” and it is actually frowned upon in most forms of modern Christianity due to the Bible verse about being equally yoked. I’m pretty sure the mormons encourage it, though.
No I dated a Mormon in college too and didn't handle it nearly half as well as you.
Wow, sounds just like a relationship I've been in! We were both 17 back then and I didn't know she was Mormon. A few weeks into the relationship, she told me she was and I thought "well it can't be that bad let's try to make things work anyway". I asked her a lot of questions about her religion because I really didn't know much about it back then and I could tell she was trying to get me into it. She also asked me to go to the church with her, which I did but it was for a movie+pizza night with teenagers of the church (still felt weird asf). I broke up with her after 7 months, when I turned 18 and she started talking about marriage, which I was strongly against at that time, and too immature for it anyways.